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Garage Classics: The Story of Bruce Springsteen: the working-class rock poet · GARAGE TO STADIUMS Music History Podcast

• Dave Anthony 0:01 Hi there. I'm Dave Anthony and this is the Garage to Stadiums podcast. On each episode we tell you the story of how one of our music legends rose from obscurity to fame and play some of the songs that mark that journey. Welcome to Garage to Stadiums. Today's episode is the story of Bruce Springsteen. Bruce was born in a small industrial town called Freehold, New Jersey about 40 miles from Newark, New Jersey and about an hour or so from New York City. What you're about to hear in this episode is an incredible story of how a small town boy with extremely challenging family circumstances went on to become a global superstar. Springsteen has been called a street poet for his uncanny and rare ability to chronicle in his songs the everyday person and their pursuits, frustrations, desperation, hopes and dreams. Bruce became a touchstone with his poignant songs that struck a chord with an audience looking for the meaning of it all in the mid to late 70s and early 80s. And he's continued into the 2000s writing from the perspective of the everyday person. Songs like �Born to Run�, �Thunder Road�, �Promised Land�, �Hungry Heart� are like mini movies that put you squarely inside the main character's mind as they navigate life. Bruce, or The Boss as he is often known, has achieved 140 million albums sold, several top 10 hits, Grammys, Oscars and even a Presidential Medal of Honor. Today's guest to discuss Bruce is Peter Ames Carlin, a journalist, critic and author. Previously a senior writer at People Magazine, his work has been published in the New York Times Magazine, the Los Angeles Times Magazine, and the Times in the UK. He's authored books on Paul Simon, Paul McCartney, Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, and a forthcoming book on the band REM called The Name of this Band is REM. Peter wrote the New York Times best seller called Bruce and is working on an upcoming book on the 50th anniversary of Bruce Springsteen's Born to Run album. Hey, Peter, welcome to Garage to Stadiums. Peter Ames Carlin 2:10 Thanks for having me, it�s nice to be here. Dave Anthony 2:11 For those who have not seen Bruce in concert. Tell us Peter, from your perspective, what is so special about his performances? Peter Ames Carlin 2:19 You know, I've been following his work since I was 15. I was like a sophomore in high school in 1978. When I first saw him play, which was a real eye opener, people always go life changing, which is biting off a lot. But it was like it was like an indicator to me that there were some it wasn't just him as much as you know, obviously he was great. And what he put into a rock performance was so different and so much more powerful and meaningful. Peter Ames Carlin 3:02 Even as a high school sophomore, it's like I could tell that something different was going on here. People were engaged on a level that was different. Dave Anthony 3:12 Peter, a lot of books on rockstars are unauthorized. They don't have access to the person in question. Yours was different. Peter Ames Carlin 3:21 I started out and I didn't have any cooperation from those guys for the first year and a half or so. I just started doing you know, the research that you do. You know, I went back to his hometown in Freehold New Jersey, I went to Asbury Park, I just began to you know, call people up and get in touch and talk with people. Dave Anthony 3:39 And I understand that Jon Landau, Bruce's longtime manager became aware that you were talking to people in Bruce's network. Peter Ames Carlin 3:47 And as Jon Landau told me later, he said, you know, did you think I wasn't watching you? And from that point forward, he was very cooperative at first and he was just opening all the doors and getting the everything I wanted to see. Then Bruce began to let me see all these others you know, these people who are getting closer and closer and finally like his one of his sisters, and then his other sister, and then his mom. Dave Anthony 4:13 So what was it like to sit with Bruce? Peter Ames Carlin 4:17 It was complicated. But the thing about interviewing Bruce, which is interesting is that he's so smart, that you can see his brain spinning. I'd ask him a question and I could see him not only considering that question, but also considering where I was going. And so then it was a little like playing three dimensional chess, you know, because there was a lot of, I'm gonna say this, but I mean that and I'm, I'm trying to take you over there. And he'd hear a question and go up. You said that but what you mean is this and also you want to take me over, you know, so then he's like, in some it wasn't like it was ever antagonistic in any way. But there were certain things that are like he's less comfortable talking about. And my job as a reporter was to make him talk about stuff like that. And, you know, not to not, you know not to gotcha or to make him uncomfortable because this is like, the interesting stuff. So it was interesting, complicated, fun. Dave Anthony 5:17 So we'll get more into Bruce's personality in a bit. But I think to get there, let's go back and his family life, his he's like a portrait of American melting pot. He's got Dutch, Irish, Italian roots. But beneath it is a really kind of crazy story that you illuminate very well in that book involving grandparents, parents, lots of dysfunction. Peter Ames Carlin 5:43 Well, he was born September 23 1949, in a very blue collar working class kind of lower working class family, you know, his dad and mom, Douglas Springsteen, and Adele, formerly is a really she's the Italian half. We're living in this, this this little sort of industrial town in central New Jersey called Freehold, which was at that time sort of governed mostly by this, you know, certainly economically by this big Karagheusian rug factory, a lot of people work there, but there's also a Nestle factory, you know, it was a very industrial type of thing. Yeah, his mom worked as a legal secretary and was very sort of charismatic and energetic and fun. And his dad, as Douglas Springsteen was, you know, World War II veteran and came from a family that went back to you, I think, that was Joosten Springsteen, you know, emigrated to the United States, from Holland in like, the 17th century or something. So they've been there a long time. You know, there were Irish people involved in the family. Dave Anthony 6:48 And you write Peter that there was some very dark issues in the Springsteen family as well. Peter Ames Carlin 6:54 There was just a darkness that kind of sifted down through the generations, and also a certain amount of psychiatric dysfunction. His dad was a very hardworking guy, a very, you know, very gentle person, in a lot of ways, very large, you know, a big guy, burly worker type of guy, but he also was bipolar. And so he would have these episodes and sometimes be very manic, and sometimes very down. And you know, his demons were very much in control of his, you know, sort of emotional tides. And so it was really difficult for him to hold the job, even though he was a really hard worker and tried really, really hard and he kind of would go from job to job. And, you know, he wasn't helped by the fact that like, there was, you know, by the sort of the collapse of the industrial middle class. But Bruce grew up in this family that was very sort of governed by some dark experiences. His dad's older sister, Virginia Springsteen was killed in a, you know, basically run over by a truck when she was, I think, five years old, and that really destroyed their parents. So when Douglas was being raised by his family, there was just a lot of strangeness and, and just a lot of unresolved tragic feelings. Yeah. And so by the time Bruce was born, and then his parents ended up moving in with the grandparents, they treated him like the sort of second coming of you know, he was the first new life and their families since the daughter was killed. And there was a certain sort of, you know, worship sort of hero worship that they had for him from the time he was old enough to walk, where the sun seemed to rise and fall over a little Brucey, which was terrific for him. But his parents were a little displaced. And so those relationships were very strange. And he sort of grew up on the one hand, feeling like a sungod. And on the other hand, knowing that his family was very out of step with the community, and poorer than most people, and also sort of strange. And so he grew up simultaneously as this the sort of brilliant creature, but on the other hand, also an outcast. And it was sort of that combination of factors that really sort of fed into his artistry and his sense of, you know, when he began to, you know, to listen to rock and roll and want to be a rock and roll performer, what mattered to him, and to a large extent, was that sense of exceptionalism. He needed he really wanted to sort of rekindle that. Dave Anthony 9:30 Yeah, you tell some really sad stories in that book of him being alone in the school yard and not being included, his dad every night would sit in the dark in the kitchen, drinking a six pack, like literally every night and you know, just this intimidating kind of presence in the house. You know, it really paints the picture of some of the complexity that Bruce comes from. Peter Ames Carlin 9:54 Yeah, it was rough, you know, because his dad in the kitchen there is just basically fighting off his demons. Right, which were like returning to coming to him like on a daily basis, that scene that you described in the dark kitchen by himself smoking cigarettes and drinking beer until he was sleepy, tired enough to go to sleep. Dave Anthony 10:12 Mm hmm. So, turning to the musical influences the seminal moment his mother buys that guitar that Bruce begs for it when he sees it in the store window. What were what were some of Bruce's early kind of influences? Peter Ames Carlin 10:25 Well, I mean, first, that great big bang moment of, I've seen Elvis on TV, you know, it wasn't always his first appearance. But you know, second or third, you know, one of the early TV appearances. And suddenly, there's Elvis. And as Bruce has said, was the arrival of a new kind of man. It's like, all the rules were done. Like everything you were supposed to be Elvis was not. And yet he was driving people insane. And they loved him. You know, and that's all Bruce needed to know, really, you know, because he was different. And he sort of on the one hand was, was an outcast, but on the other hand, was kind of extraordinary. So he was like, that's who I want to be. So he started, he wanted a guitar and truck got, I think they rented him one. And he was trying to play it, but it was, it was a lousy guitar, and he had little hands and he couldn't make it go. So he put it away. And then, you know, it was listening to the type of music you would listen to in those days, his mom was an am radio head. So they listened to the top 40 in his kitchen in the mornings. But then it was the Beatles on Ed Sullivan in 1964, when he was, you know, 15. And that was the next one where he was like, now I really got to get a guitar, you know, at which point he was old enough to actually figure out how to play. And as he said, the moment he's, you know, looked in the mirror and saw himself standing with a guitar, it was the first time he could really stand who he was. And that was a powerful moment. And from that point forward, you know, it's all those great, you know, 60s bands, you know, the Beatles, and the Stones and the Byrds and, and all those people and you know, and that's what swept him up. And, you know, by 1965, he was in a band of his own the Castilles, and they started playing and being fairly successful on the kind of team club circuit by 65, 66. Dave Anthony 12:20 And then it's, I guess, from there, he goes on to a band called Steel Mill, and I've listened to some of their tunes. That is a heavy, heavy sound quite different than the familiar Bruce sound. Peter Ames Carlin 12:32 Yeah, it was kind of proto metal. They came together, I think, in the January of 69. They were called Child at first, but then it turned out there was another band called Child, I think, from Long Island. So they reconfigured themselves a Steel Mill, and they were just like a power quartet, you know, because it was Bruce. And at the time, Bruce was best known as a lead guitar player, like he was extraordinarily fast and melodic, and just, you know, extremely gifted as a lead guitarist. And he would write these songs that were essentially just delivery systems for these incredibly epic solos that he would take. Dave Anthony 13:09 Let's play a little bit of that song �Wind and Rain� by Steel Mill just to hear how heavy that sound is. They actually opened up for Allman Brothers, Black Sabbath, Ike and Tina Turner and a few others. So they did some, I guess, regional success. But then Bruce, I guess, realizes, you know what, I gotta do my own thing, and starts to experiment on his own play a little bit on his own. But then the big break comes through Mike Appel, an unbelievable character. Tell us a little bit about Mike Appel and what he did for Bruce? Peter Ames Carlin 13:58 Well, Mike was a guy he was like, uh, I think he had had a moment of, you know, a little moment like being in a in a rock band, like a pop rock band in the early 60s. And I think they had like a moderate hit of one sort or the other. But then he got into like, being sought like a professional songwriter like they used to have like on Seventh Avenue in New York and you just crank out the songs and you take them to publishers, and you try to sell them or you get a job with a song publisher for like 50 bucks a week or whatever, to crank out tunes. And he and his partner, Jim Cretecos ended up writing songs and working with this guy who was like the producer of the Partridge Family, which was that TV show in the early 70s. David Cassidy and the band the imaginary family band the Partridges, great show I watched it regularly. Yeah, and they were like the Monkees because they actually had hit songs. And Mike and Jim wrote one of them I think it was �Doesn't Somebody Want to be Wanted�, but they were begin. So they were still writing songs in the early 70s 1971 when Bruce met them, but they really wanted to get into management. And so, Bruce's first manager, the guy that was the manager of Steel Mill, Tinker West, took him to meet this guy, Mike Appel, who he had gotten to know at some point, and Bruce came up with a borrowed guitar with a cracked neck. And so he played him someone who's new songs, which were then he was kind of writing on acoustic guitar with this kind of folk singer songwriter thing, you know, that was so popular around 1969, 1970, 71. And Mike really flipped for those songs. So he signed him up and just started cranking out the songs. He was incredibly prolific at the time. And within a few months, Mike had this kind of wild eyed dedication to Bruce like he totally heard what Bruce was capable of. And he totally got it. He mortgaged his house, you wrote. Yeah, when he got to that point a little later when they had to get the band on the road. So he managed to get an appointment to see John Hammond who was the famous a&r man at Columbia Records, who had signed Dylan and signed Billie Holiday and signed a whole bunch of really significant artists and he talked his way into Hammonds office with Bruce and Bruce played like one song. And Hammond was instantly like, you got to be a Columbia artist, and play them some more songs and then took them up to meet Clive Davis, who was the president of Columbia at the time, and Clive got it immediately and signed him. One of the things that Bruce really connected with Mike was there was something a little crazy in his eyes, and that's what I needed. He needed someone who was going to have that almost kind of religious dedication to him as an artist, and just go to the wall with him. And Mike was all in and that's what Bruce was after. Dave Anthony 16:55 So this leads to album one, they signed to Columbia. And �Greetings from Asbury Park�, as you mentioned, released in January 73. Bruce is 23 years old, it features songs like �Blinded by the Light�, �Growing Up� and �It's hard to be a Saint in the City�. Dave Anthony 17:45 And then that's followed up a few months later, by �The Wild the Innocent and E Street Shuffle� released in November 73. And that feature �Rosalita�, �Fourth of July, Sandy�. How are these albums received kind of critically? Peter Ames Carlin 18:17 Well, they're two very different records, which is sort of interesting. The first record when Mike and then John Hammond saw Bruce as a folk solo singer songwriter with an acoustic guitar, which was super hot at the time, you know, think about James Taylor and yeah, and Jackson Browne. And they were like, that's what we want this record to sound like. And Bruce had spent the vast majority of his career up to that point as a lead guitar player in a big noisy rock band. But when it was time to perform and promote that record, Bruce was like, I have a band. I have these guys that I play with all the time and if I'm gonna go on the road, I need to bring a band and Mike got it pretty quickly. It was like okay, but John Hammond in the Columbia Records guys weren't certain at first but it set them on the road with his band and then just as the months went by, and the band became a much bigger part of not just a performance, but just Bruce's sense of who he was as an artist. And so �The Wild the Innocent� is like a band record and it's a lot of those songs like the title track the �E Street Shuffle�, is about being in a band and about seeing the band performed and he's becoming a much better songwriter you know, even in the space of a few months and writing songs like �Rosalita� and �Incident on 57th Street� and �New York City Serenade�. Peter Ames Carlin 19:59 It had a really sophisticated, interesting songs that he performed with a full band. Both of those records really resonated with critics who I think heard how sophisticated Bruce was becoming as a songwriter. Dave Anthony 20:13 And there's a seminal moment where they're touring these small venues that Jon Landau writes his famous quote about Bruce or a review, and he says, I've seen the rock and roll's future and it's Bruce Springsteen, which was a hell of a statement, because he wasn�t exactly well known at the time. Peter Ames Carlin 20:33 No, the first two records were kind of flops. So after those first two records by early 1974, and Bruce and his band are just chugging from bar to bar to bar just trying to build a following. And the shows are getting a certain amount of buzz. But it wasn't until Jon Landau who was then the record review editor for Rolling Stone, which was a very high profile and powerful position for a music journalist to have at that point, took him to see a show in Boston. And Jon was like, I was pasted against the wall. And he went home. And he wrote this, this sort of cree de crear of a review, where he said, like, he was having a tough go of it in his life was getting divorced and feeling old. And it was like, because it was his 27th birthday. So you know, he's, he's well past it at that point. So he went to the show, and it's like, a night when I needed to feel young. And to remember what drew me to music in the first place. Bruce Springsteen sort of showed me everything and completely altered his life. And so he cranked out this review, and it really spun the heads of all the people at Columbia. But at the time, Bruce's sales did not seem to warrant releasing through record. But they said, okay, they said, well give you enough money to make a single. And if you can make a single that sounds like it might get played on the radio, we'll give you the dough to make the rest of the record. And so he went home and wrote �Born to Run�, and they spent, right and then spent six months. That's a hell of. Yeah, right, exactly. It is, but it's like Bruce is having his back against the wall is utterly like his comfort zone. Dave Anthony 22:20 And so Jon Landau, the Rolling Stone reviewer, who wrote that amazing quote about the unknown, Bruce Springsteen being the future of rock and roll is brought in to be a co producer of the �Born to Run� album, and ultimately becomes Bruce's manager, Peter Ames Carlin 22:34 Bruce was, was laboring over every tiny aspect of it. And he began to feel like they needed another set of ears to come in. And so they hired Jon to come in and co-produce. But Jon helped them move to a different recording studio. And they made this transformative record that broke through in a big way. And when the Columbia people heard what they were doing, they had started placing ads quoting Jon Landau, and basically saying, like, there's this buzz building about this guy, we're going to totally get behind him like this is the guy of the future. Everyone needs to pay attention to this. And when �Born to Run� came out in August of 75. It was like I can't remember which critics said this, like it delivered on Springsteen's promise on every level. And suddenly he was like the guy of the moment and famously notoriously was on the cover of Time and Newsweek the same week in October of 75 which at the time was meaningful now anybody would care but at the time that was huge. Dave Anthony 23:39 I mean, this is just next level writing on this album that he puts out with his back against the wall to kind of produce first �Born to Run� as you said. �Thunder Road�, �Jungleland�, �Tenth Avenue Freeze Out�. This album goes on to sell 6 million copies in the US, 3 million elsewhere. I know you've got a forthcoming book on �Born to Run�. What are your thoughts? I mean, as you look at that Elton, what, you know, looking at it 50 years later, what is the sort of thoughts that you have, as you kind of ponder it? Peter Ames Carlin 25:08 Like you said, I mean, it's extremely sophisticated, he's really begin beginning to understand exactly who he is as a writer, what his voice is, and what his milieu is. And he's come to understand that there was something just heavily symbolic about cars on the highway in America. And at the time, as he has said, subsequently, it was that weird sort of period in mid 70s. America that was like post 1960s, post Woodstock post Watergate, you know, there was a lot of cynicism that had built up in society. And it was easy to be cynical, there was the sense of foreclosed options and of the, of the borders, kind of creeping in on America. And he wanted to express something about that, but then also express something about the constant promise in the country, the idea that you can hit the road and go somewhere else and recreate yourself in your own image. Yeah. And that line, at the end of �Thunder Road�, it's that key line, it's a town full of losers, and we're pulling out of here to win, you know, that's a significant line. Dave Anthony 26:20 Yeah, it's really interesting, which brings me to the writing process. He's been compared, you know, to Bob Dylan, but from my perspective, and maybe you'll agree or disagree, but Dylan seems to write fantastical imagery that leaves you wondering about a mystical world, whereas Springsteen's stories feel like people you actually know, or have seen or can easily imagine. He's got characters that are, you know, misfits, young couples, disillusion men, criminals, street racers, I mean, the inspiration makes me think about that early 70s period where that was kind of the golden era of American movies, where stories were starting to be told that were, that were kind of about the rebels and the seedy side of American life. And Bruce seems to be an extension of that almost like a movie craftsman with his with his stories. Peter Ames Carlin 27:08 He'd always been really interested in movies, once he really began to connect with Jon and Jon began to steer him not just toward particular movies of interest, because Bruce had always, I think, had an appetite for like B movies and really interesting sort of dark cinema noir type stuff. But then Jon began to direct him toward books, great writing. And Bruce began to kind of make the connection between what was cinematic storytelling and what he could do in the context of a rock and roll song. And also just his reading of literature, and particularly, like John Steinbeck and others, deepened his sense of the American fabric and what he could express. In a song. Springsteen was way more involved in that blue collar existence, that the people that really, he focuses on, as he says, are not the people who change the world, but they're the ones who keep the world spinning from day to day. So he understands. And I think one of his great contributions as a writer is his being able to illuminate something about the lives and, and the sort of inherent, I don't know if glory is the right word. But the beauty of just working a job and taking care of your family and living from day to day, the beauty and the challenges and the frustrations and the heartbreak of it as well. Dave Anthony 28:33 Next, Peter will tell us about the subsequent album that Bruce puts out, which is a dark moody album called �Darkness on the Edge of Town�. But first, it's important to understand that after the huge success had �Born to Run� in 1975, unfortunately for Bruce, trouble lay ahead, the unbridled enthusiasm that Mike Appel had shown Bruce by making key introductions, mortgaging his house to fund Bruce's tours and generally do everything he could to support Bruce, his career was incongruent with an onerous contract that he had Bruce signed years before. Essentially, it gave Appel�s company ownership of Bruce's songs and a royalty split that was egregiously in favor of Appel. Bruce became aware of this lopsided agreement and was not happy. This cause threatened lawsuits and litigation by both sides. Appel even received an injunction to stop Bruce from recording, which kept Bruce from making a next album for three years. The case was settled with Bruce paying Appel $800,000 to get out of the contract, reducing Appel�s royalty take on past songs, but incredibly agreeing to leave Appel as a producer of his next album. But from then on, Jon Landau became Bruce's trusted representative. So we get to, I guess the album after sort of the dispute is settled Peter �Darkness on the Edge of Town� and it's pretty dark. Do you think, obviously the grief of the settlement comes through, it's got that cinema noir feel bad characters in dark places. Peter Ames Carlin 30:12 He had this sort of ended up having to go separate ways from Mike Appel. And I think also seeing the people that he had grown up with in Freehold who were largely working class guys, and the frustrations and disappointments and challenges of their lives really resonated with him. And he wanted to express something about also his ambivalence about becoming as successful as �Born to Run� had made him, which was like, why am I even doing this? Like, what's the point of this, this sort of pursuit of glory. One of the key songs that didn't actually end up on the record, though it was released subsequently, it's called �The Promise�, which was, in a way it feels like an allegorical portrait of his conflict with Mike Appel. And he sings in the voice of a guy that built a race car called the challenger. And it was a car he built on his own and owned on his own and then ended up selling to someone else so he could keep racing in it. And he ends up basically left on the side of the road as a wreckage, you know, I won big ones and I hit the coast but somehow I paid the big cost. And I think that's where Bruce was at the time. That was a record again, that was another critical triumph and kind of relaunched Bruce in his lawsuit era songs. Dave Anthony 31:48 Songs on Bruce's fourth album �Darkness on the Edge of Town� included �Badlands�, �Prove it All Night�, and �Candy�s Room�. As well as putting that album out in 1978 Bruce also authored the song �Because the Night� and it became a big hit for Patti Smith. And the album �Darkness on the Edge of Town� is followed by Bruce fifth album, �The River� in 1981. Bruce is 31 years old and on it he writes a very poignant song reflecting his sister's situation with her teen pregnancy and marriage to her teenage boyfriend, which is the title track called �The River�. Dave Anthony 33:36 It's almost like when the Stones had their run of albums from 68 to 72. Like this is Bruce's run, �Born to Run�, �Darkness on the Edge of Town�, �The River�, a hell of a run from these albums. Are they separate pieces of a puzzle? Are they different albums? Do you think? Are they kind of a continuation of the story? Peter Ames Carlin 33:53 In a sense, the characters that he's following are people who he sees as roughly being his age, in his early 20s writing �Born to Run�, it's about people who are at the front end of adulthood, who were trying to establish themselves and figure out who they are and where they want to be and, and getting there. And �Darkness� is kind of like okay, now they're in their late 20s. And they are established, they have careers, they maybe have their partners, maybe they have a family or something. And they're dealing with the sort of frustration and the kind of the disappointment that comes with not quite getting what you want or getting what you want and realizing that it's not enough. And how do you go forward from there. �The River� is more about just the domestic life and having young kids and, and figuring out what that kind of life means working from day to day. �The River� of course, each of these is becoming more and more successful. �The River� was the record that with the single �Hungry Heart� actually brought him into the top 40 And that broke it wide open. And that was the record that finally he could go and play basketball arenas and became the kind of star that was big at around the country, not just in certain pockets of the country. And then also in early 1981, they spent a few months touring in Europe and build a kind of international audience. But he followed up �The River� with this the darkest record that he's ever made, �Nebraska�, which is sort of a portrait of a guy who's in the midst of a crisis, I was talking earlier about his dad's bipolar disease, and about Bruce's having to grow up with his father who was very emotionally absent, just because of his dysfunction. But Bruce didn't know that as a kid, they didn't have the vocabulary or the understanding of psychiatric illness. So he saw that as just his father, like, not liking him essentially. Certainly not connecting with him. And so there was a lot of ghosts that were sort of running around. In Bruce's consciousness and �Nebraska�. Very folky records solo he plays all the instruments recorded at home on this home sort of four track recording machine, it's very dark and echoey. Dave Anthony 36:16 So Bruce's album �Nebraska� is released in September 1982. And as Peter says, features some very dark songs about murder, dysfunctional families, broken gamblers, burned out cops, desperate couples, Bruce has been very open about his mental health struggles during this time, as Peter mentioned, two of the better known ones on this album Peter or the title track, �Nebraska� and �Atlantic City�. But this album, Peter was not really marketed like his previous albums. Peter Ames Carlin 37:21 They didn't try to market it as a mainstream record. So it didn't sell anything like �The River�. But it allowed him to kind of tell some stories that were very important to him and express something was important to them, and to give himself the leeway emotionally to make his next record, which was �Born in the USA�, which was very much aimed right at the mainstream type of album. Dave Anthony 37:47 And I want to touch on that because you touched on, you know, some of the potential mental health issues that he might have been facing with �Nebraska�. It's a dark album. And then you've got almost a switch turned on in his head that all these years of putting blood sweat and tears into relentless touring three hour concerts, writing from the perspective of the ordinary man, he doesn't want to play large stadiums. He's always kind of resisted that superstar kind of approach. And I guess he says, I mean, I'm sort of surmising here, the hell with it it's time to go big. What drives this sudden? Oh, it's just a completely different approach �Born in the USA� is so massive. Yeah. And so much publicity and so much promotion and so forth. Peter Ames Carlin 38:31 Yeah. Well, he was ready to really make his stand. I mean, and don't let's don't forget, this is the middle of the Reagan era in the United States. And Bruce's political consciousness is becoming that much more profound, and that much more sort of engaged. And so he felt like that in this kind of mourning in America type of era that was blossoming, that there were a lot of people who were had been left behind, and they were his people. They were the blue collar workers. They were people like his dad and his mom and people who worked really hard every day, and weren't getting ahead anymore, because the economy wasn't, wasn't structured for them to do that, really. And he was very concerned with what had happened with veterans of the Vietnam era, because all those people were his age like he was draft age in the late 60s during the Vietnam War. And he had had a motorcycle accident when he was 17. He did a lot of artful things to try to avoid actually getting drafted. But then ultimately, he was four F because of what had happened to his knee when he was 17 years old. But he didn't go but he felt very bad about the people who did and very bad about how the government treated them when they came home. And so he wanted to make a record that expressed this this disconnect in this this this this frustration with American government and society, but he wanted as many people as possible to hear it. So he we know in a weird way it's the most radio friendly record he ever made. But on the other hand, it's also like the darkest, most nihilistic record that he ever made. Dave Anthony 40:08 Yeah, one of the confusing things to audiences everywhere was, you know, �Born in the USA� is not a song about being pridefully American it is a no castigation of the American way how soldiers were sent to Vietnam and basically rendered useless when they came home. Peter Ames Carlin 40:41 The thing is like he felt like that was an important story to tell. So he wasn't going to hide that light under a bushel anymore. And to kind of launch that story and to become kind of a spokesman for ordinary working class Americans. On this big noisy stage. Dave Anthony 41:00 Bruce's album �Born in the USA�, released in June 1984, became a monster album for Bruce selling 30 million copies worldwide and the ensuing 15 month World Tour attracted almost 4 million fans. �Born in the USA� contains seven top 10 songs and stayed in the top 10 album charts for over a year and a half and contain songs like �Dancing in the Dark�, �Glory Days� and a poignant song about the declining industrial heartland �My Hometown�. We touched on Bruce's political activity and community support he has supported veterans he's raised awareness for foodbanks at various concert stops. He supported African relief by donating his services to a music tour in the 90s featuring Sting, Peter Gabriel and others. Bruce even played a key role in AIDS awareness when he recorded the song streets of Philadelphia for the soundtrack of the movie Philadelphia starring Tom Hanks as an AIDS victim unfairly discriminated against by his employer. Dave Anthony 43:04 When Bruce lived in LA in the early 90s, he became aware of the desperation of migrant workers who live illegally and risk their health to provide for their families. And he writes a song in 1995 that touches on his love for author John Steinbeck and parallels of these migrant families to the poor families in Steinbeck's book, �The Grapes of Wrath�, with his song �The Ghost of Tom Joad�, Tom Joad, of course being the main character in the book. Peter Ames Carlin 43:54 He wanted that to be something that the nation and then the world was going to hear loud and clear. And he also sort of knew that he had or suspected that he had the ability as a performer. Dave Anthony 44:07 We've got a few minutes left Peter I want to catch on something that's important which is his complex personality on one hand he's this every man hangs out in bars, you know visits friends in New Jersey sees his aunts, writes about all these people. And on the other hand, you have a control freak in the studio, who does 300 takes of one song putting the band through the paces. And you hint at some narcissism there and I just want you to sort of comment on this complexity of this man. Peter Ames Carlin 44:42 Hint at? Listen, if there's one person who's well acquainted with Bruce's narcissism and his and his being an attention whore as he calls it, it's Bruce. He's been in therapy for 45 years at this point, and he's incredibly familiar with his own foibles. One of the fixed costs of knowing and, and, and dealing with Bruce is the fact that he's Bruce Springsteen. He's a huge rock star and he knows it. He can be remarkably sweet and generous and kind and thoughtful. But he can also be very focused on what Bruce Springsteen needs at any given moment. That's just what he is. He's not mean about it. He's not a jerk if he can be sort of self involved, but welcome to the world of artists. So he's a complicated conflicted guy. But as one person told me before I met him, someone who knew him really well as like, what's Bruce like, and this guy goes, he's exactly who you think he is. So listen to a Bruce Springsteen record. Who do you think that guy is? He's funny, he's smart, he's complicated, he's dark, he's hopeful. He's angry. He's all those things. Dave Anthony 45:53 That's a really interesting perspective. So Bruce puts out more albums in the years that follow yielding some minor hits. But one of America's great tragedies, brings Bruce to the forefront again and speaks to his connection to the common man on 9/11 in 2001, over 3000 people died with the collapse of the World Trade Center towers in New York. And what happens next is almost hard to fathom, but speaks to the power of Bruce's songwriting. Several people's obituaries from that fateful day mentioned Bruce as their favorite artist, and how meaningful his songs had been. Bruce personally called or wrote each of these families to express his sympathies to those families and his appreciation for their love of his music. He also released an album The Rising that speaks to the 9/11 tragedy. He writes about firemen risking their safety to enter burning towers, he writes about the shattered lives and rebirth that will happen. One of the songs that gets tremendous reception is the title track, called �The Rising�. What are three songs you'd pick for the audience? Is there three hidden gems or songs that you would sort of say guys give these a listen? Peter Ames Carlin 47:17 The songs that I go back to somehow the most, even though I love like so much of his work, like �Racing in the Streets� from �Darkness on the Edge of Town�. It's a song that for me just sort of tells the whole story just in terms of like, this is a great snapshot of what Bruce's as a songwriter, what his vision is, what his milieu is. If that song about the street racer who starts off with this guy talk telling you what kind of car he's got and what kind of gear it's loaded up with. Sitting in the parking lot of the 7/11 which is like as real as it gets. You can smell that cheesy popcorn, they have their by the end of the song take this incredible journey where he picks up his girl and they're going to drive to the sea and wash these sins off their hands and that journey from the 7/11 parking lot to some kind of dark transcendence on the beach is for me amazing. Peter Ames Carlin 48:34 That's the Springsteen stuff that that that resonate with me the most. Another song of his that I just absolutely love that's more of a hidden gem is it's actually a demo, I think, called �The County Fair�. That's just this beautiful portrait of the small town in the summer and what happens when the county fair comes and how exciting it is and you go ride on the ferris wheel with your girl and he talks at one point about this little band that they've got on the bandstand, two guitars, bass and drums and there's something just so sweet and so, so beautiful about his just description of what it's like to dance outside under the stars at the county fair. We were listening to a little rock and roll band that I love. Peter Ames Carlin 49:50 And then one of my favorite later day songs is just because I love the writing. It's off of �Western Stars� and it's called �Drive Fast (The Stuntman)�. That record is, I just think an absolutely top drawer Bruce Springsteen record. I think it stands with �Born to Run�. I think it stands with darkness, among the certainly my favorite Springsteen records because the writing is so sophisticated and the milieu and he's revisiting this kind of desert Southwest world that he writes about in darkness. Only these characters aren't in their late 20s. They're in their 60s, and they're dealing with adulthood from the other, the other end of the process, their relationships and their regrets and their failures and their triumphs Dave Anthony 50:57 What do you think his place in music history is when we all look back someday? What will he be remembered for? Peter Ames Carlin 51:04 I think that the magical thing he did of blending Elvis's visceral sort of impact with Dylan's intellectual, poetic voice, and being able to really express something really profound and honest about the experience of being an ordinary American. The fact that Bruce has spent most of his adult life as an extremely successful rock star, who it has been extraordinarily wealthy, doesn't ever really get in the way of his comprehension and his wreck, visceral knowledge of what it feels like to struggle from day to day because that's who he was. That's who his family was. And that's to some extent who his friends still are. I've been with him and Freehold walking around and the people who call out to him who he hangs out and talks to are just the kids that he grew up with. And they've known him since they were all in short pants. He knows them. He's with them. He runs his errands in the same place that they do it like that guy said to me whenever that was 15 years ago, and he said Bruce is exactly who you think he is. Listen to those records. He's a very sophisticated writer. He's extremely smart, but he knows exactly what it feels like to be a working class struggle to your days type of guy. Dave Anthony 52:26 If you want to read one of the incredible journeys of a rock star who has stayed the voice of the common man while reaching this stadium level superstardom I urge you to pick up Peters book, �Bruce�, and Peter, it's been a pleasure having you here today on Garage to Stadiums. Peter Ames Carlin 52:45 My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Dave Anthony 52:51 If you want to hear Bruce Springsteen zone perspective on his life, his autobiography �Born to Run� is also an excellent read. In it. Bruce is very open about his own mental health struggles with anxiety and depression. So how did Bruce Springsteen get his unique nickname The Boss? Well, here's how Bruce and his New Jersey musician friends used to get together once a week to play a no holds barred game of Monopoly. They made up special rules, like making up special cards you could draw that would allow you to seize control of another person's property. Bruce became known as a ruthless player in these board games, and the group accordingly started to call him the boss. Bruce, his daughter, Jessica Springsteen was in the 2020 Olympics as part of the US equestrian team, and she won a silver medal. I guess you could say she was born to ride. And then speaking of 9/11 and the role of firefighters in that tragic day. Bruce's son Sam Springsteen is a firefighter in New Jersey. Springsteen is also famous in space, a minor planet in space has been named after Springsteen planet 23990 was officially named Springsteen in honor of the singer in 2001. Bruce has received the Presidential Medal of Freedom as we mentioned earlier, in 2016, President Barack Obama awarded Springsteen with the highest civilian honor in the United States. This prestigious recognition highlighted Springsteen's impact on American music and culture. Despite his mass commercial success, Bruce incredibly has never had a number one hit. However, his song �Blinded by the Light� did go to number one when recorded by another group, Manfred Mann. Bruce is also an avid supporter of LGBTQ plus rights. In April of 2016. He canceled a gig in Greensboro, North Carolina at the last minute to protest the newly approved Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act, aka the bathroom law. This law dictates which restrooms are designed for transgender people. For more on Bruce's career visit Garage to Stadiums where you can see our blog entry on Bruce, which includes video clips of his incredible concert performance highlights throughout the decades. You can also see our show notes and transcripts for all of our episodes at the site. Follow our show on your favorite podcast platform to be alerted when our next episode drops. We hope you enjoyed our show today. Special thanks to our guest, Peter Ames Carlin, author of the Bruce Springsteen biography �Bruce� and our producers Aminah Faubert and Connor Sampson. You've been listening to garage two stadiums another blast furnace labs production. I'm Dave Anthony. See you next time for another Garage to Stadiums story.