Latest / Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections / Networking Unleashed: S1E60 An Interview with Colin McIntosh and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker

Transcript

Networking Unleashed: S1E60 An Interview with Colin McIntosh and Michael A Forman, Public Speaker · Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections

0:16
Welcome back to another episode of Networking
0:19
Unleashed, where we explore the power of relationships
0:22
to unlock the real business success. I'm your
0:26
host, Michael Forman. Today, I'm sorry, we are
0:30
diving into one of the most essential, yet often
0:33
overlooked, aspects of the entrepreneurial and
0:36
career journey, networking as your launchpad.
0:42
My guest today has been in the trenches. launching
0:45
startups, navigating the job hunt, and building
0:48
businesses from scratch. He knows what it takes
0:51
to turn a handshake into a game changer and how
0:55
the right conversation can lead to your next
0:57
big opportunity. Whether you're a job seeker
1:01
trying to stand out, a new entrepreneur looking
1:04
for traction, or someone deep in the startup
1:07
grind, this episode is packed with powerful insights
1:10
to help you build your profitable connections
1:14
from day one. So grab your notebook or favorite
1:18
app and get ready to rethink how you approach
1:20
every introduction. Let's unleash some next level
1:25
networking. Welcome, Colin. Welcome to my podcast.
1:29
Welcome for my listeners. Why don't you tell
1:32
us a little bit about your background? Yeah,
1:35
absolutely. And thanks for having me. My background
1:37
was interesting. I graduated from Emory University
1:39
in Atlanta, close to where you're at. in 2012
1:43
and then I got a job at the world's largest hedge
1:47
fund, which I thought I had made it. I was at
1:49
Bridgewater Associates in Connecticut. And I
1:52
promptly got fired in five months. I ended up
1:55
having dinner with the guy who hired me there.
1:58
He was a recruiter. He said, hey, I still like
2:00
you. I appreciate you reaching out. Why don't
2:02
you come be a recruiter for me? And so I ended
2:05
up being a recruiter for the next year. I loved
2:07
it, adored it, met amazing people, taught myself
2:09
all about different industries, made a million
2:11
connections. And then I ended up hiring myself
2:14
at one of my open roles in Seattle at a startup
2:18
out there. And then about a year or so after
2:21
that, maybe a year and a half, I got a phone
2:24
call from one of my high school best friends
2:25
who had helped start her business. She had gotten
2:28
into Techstars Boulder and she said, hey, I want
2:31
you to be on the founding team. And I dropped
2:34
everything in Seattle. I drove 20 hours down
2:37
to Denver and I made $1 ,600 a month. It was
2:42
wonderful, great summer. We raised a few million
2:44
dollars and then yada, yada, yada. We all got
2:48
laid off at 1 p .m. on a Monday, three years
2:51
later. And three weeks after that, I started
2:53
my own company, which is what I'm mostly known
2:55
for, which is Sheets and Giggles. And that is
2:58
a sustainable bedding brand. I've been doing
3:00
that for seven years now. We make bed sheets,
3:03
pillows, mattresses out of eucalyptus trees.
3:06
And we were actually just on Good Morning America
3:08
last month for Sleep Week. So it's been a wonderful
3:11
ride. Wow, congratulations. That sounds like
3:15
quite a bumpy road, but you finally got to it
3:18
and you're quite successful. So that's really
3:22
great. Let me start off by asking you a few questions.
3:26
When you were first starting your business, what
3:29
role did networking play in getting things off
3:32
the ground? Oh, it was essential. When I started
3:36
Cheating Giggles, I was 27 years old. I had just
3:39
gotten laid off, right? And I had three years
3:43
of experience in consumer brands under my belt
3:46
in a very different space in hardware, wearable
3:50
technology. And I thought to myself, okay, at
3:53
this point in my life, I've got two options.
3:55
I can move back to Seattle. I can leverage my
3:58
relationships there. I can maybe work at Microsoft
4:00
or Amazon or Boeing or Starbucks, somewhere interesting
4:03
that's based in Seattle. Or I can take all the
4:07
experience of the last three years, all the people
4:10
I've met, my CEO, my COO, our investors, our
4:14
board members, the Techstars network, and I can
4:17
leverage those relationships and start my own
4:21
company. And I decided that it was now or never.
4:24
And it was the perfect time to start my own business
4:27
with those relationships that I had built specifically.
4:30
And there's a bunch of different pieces that
4:33
relationships helped me out with. First and foremost,
4:36
I knew nothing about fabrics. I had never done
4:39
anything in fabric. I didn't know anything about
4:41
textiles. And so the first connection I reached
4:43
out to were actually the founders of a boulder
4:48
company called Shaughnessy. They have a wonderful
4:52
business. They make novelty ski clothing as well
4:55
as amazing underwear. And I did not know the
4:58
first thing about how to source fabrics. And
5:01
so I had lunch with those guys. I had a beer
5:02
with them. And they introduced me to somebody
5:06
in California. who I then flew out to meet. I
5:09
bought him lunch. His name was Mike. Mike ended
5:11
up becoming my mentor and he ended up becoming
5:14
my director of product for six years at Sheets
5:16
and Giggles. That's just one example of many.
5:19
My former coworkers became investors in the business.
5:22
My crowdfunding customers included friends, colleagues,
5:25
people I'd met over the course of my career at
5:27
that point. And everybody I worked with, I met
5:31
through somebody else in the beginning. And those
5:33
relationships helped me get the company off the
5:35
ground. That's great. That is the true sense
5:41
of networking and the building of relationships.
5:44
And listen, I'm the first person to say that
5:47
the days of building a client list is really
5:51
out the window. It's the days of building relationships.
5:54
And you took relationship to the next level.
5:57
You have them as investors, as COOs and things
6:02
like that. So you really took it to the next
6:04
level. Let me ask you a question. Can you share
6:07
a moment when a single connection opened a major
6:11
door for you, either in business or during a
6:14
job search? It was definitely the one that I
6:18
mentioned a second ago where I had met my director
6:21
of products through a connection with the founders
6:24
of ShynessD. That was incredibly helpful. I think
6:27
there's definitely more examples in my life.
6:30
I had mentioned earlier, I got hired. But my
6:32
first two jobs, I got hired by the same guy.
6:35
So that was really, he hired me at Bridgewater.
6:38
And then after I got fired, we had dinner and
6:41
he goes, I still really like you, man. And if
6:43
you want to work with me, I'd love to have you
6:45
as a recruiter. And he hired me $40 ,000 a year,
6:49
no commission as a recruiter, my second job out
6:52
of college. And then his name's Nate. We stayed
6:56
in touch. We invited each other to our weddings.
6:59
We became good friends. And he's since become
7:02
a software engineer. And funny enough, now he
7:05
and I operate on the side of resume builder that
7:08
you've seen called sheetsresume .com that he
7:11
and I started together last year on our nights
7:14
and weekends. And that's been tremendous. And
7:16
that's doing wonderful side revenue for both
7:19
of us. And those connections, so funny to think
7:22
about the guy that hired me at my first job out
7:25
of college is now in my second job. is now my
7:30
business partner 13 years later in a business
7:36
that I run that I'm enabled to do because of
7:39
all the other relationships that I have and running
7:42
Sheets and Giggles. And so that's really cool.
7:44
That's probably my strongest relationship over
7:46
the course of my career. And that's led to a
7:48
lot. That's great. That's great. I think it's
7:52
amazing that you developed that friendship. From
7:55
the guy who hired you? It's crazy. And from his
7:59
perspective, he hired this kid out of college
8:03
in 2012 to go work for one of his clients. And
8:08
13 years later, he's got two kids. He's married.
8:11
I'm married. And we both have a business that
8:15
generates six figures of side income for us.
8:18
And just because he met me. through recruiting
8:21
and then stayed in touch with me as well, now
8:25
he has this extra income stream that wouldn't
8:28
have been possible without what I've built in
8:31
terms of my reputation on the internet with helping
8:34
people with their resumes. And so from his perspective,
8:37
it's pretty wild too, the way that life leads
8:39
you and the way that relationships can twist
8:41
and turn over time. That's true. You never close
8:45
that door completely. You always leave it open
8:48
a crack because you don't know. Who or what is
8:51
going to walk through that crack? That's providing
8:53
that everything works out well, which apparently
8:55
it did. What advice would you give someone trying
8:59
to network during a career transition or job
9:02
hunt? Don't. There's two things. One is it's
9:06
just dating. So don't come across as desperate.
9:10
If you come across as I have to meet with you,
9:13
I need help. It's okay to be vulnerable and to
9:18
say, okay, I can really use your advice. It's
9:21
another thing to come across as desperate because
9:23
then people are like, oh, I don't know if I want
9:26
to get involved with your situation or what you've
9:28
got going on. The second piece of advice is to
9:32
buy them lunch. This is such a dumb piece of
9:37
advice, but hopefully it's maybe not obvious
9:39
to everyone. If you want somebody's mentorship,
9:44
You just shoot them an email, give them a call,
9:47
approach them at an event and say, hey, I'd love
9:50
to pick your brain. Could I buy you lunch sometime?
9:54
And just pick up the tab. It'll cost you $30,
9:58
$40. Pick up the tab at lunch. Sit down with
10:02
them. You'll get two hours of their time, undivided
10:05
attention. They won't be on their phone. They
10:06
won't be thinking about other things. They'll
10:08
be listening to you. And then after that meeting,
10:10
say, hey, this was amazing. Would you mind getting
10:12
together for breakfast sometime maybe in the
10:15
next week or two? I'd love to ask you a few more
10:17
questions. And now you've built this, now they
10:20
like you, hopefully, right? They've spent time
10:22
with you and they want to help you out. And so
10:25
many people ask me for my time and I'm fine with
10:29
giving it to them. I try to subscribe to the
10:31
theory of give first, which maybe I can talk
10:33
about more later. But it is challenging when
10:37
you have a very busy schedule to give everybody
10:39
time. who asks for it. But I do eat lunch every
10:43
day. And so if you ask me to grab lunch on a
10:47
random Friday, I already have that time built
10:50
in my calendar. I have to eat food. And so I
10:53
might as well sit across from somebody and try
10:55
to help them out. So that's a really good way
10:57
to get somebody to give you the time of day.
11:00
That's always good. I'm asked several times a
11:04
week, usually through LinkedIn or something else,
11:06
where they're always asking me something about
11:09
networking. And only one or two of them have
11:12
offered to buy me lunch, which I took them up
11:14
on, by the way. Always. I'll say yes to a free
11:17
lunch anytime. No matter how successful I am.
11:20
But I'm always willing to give my advice on different
11:25
networking or communication challenges that they
11:28
may have. So it really, that's such great advice,
11:33
which I don't know if everybody would just think
11:35
of, but it's a great thing to ask, to offer.
11:39
It seems obvious to me, but I get a lot of people
11:41
want to buy me a cup of coffee and that sort
11:42
of thing. And I'm fine with that. A cup of coffee.
11:44
Hey, let's throw out a cup of coffee. I want
11:46
to pick your brain. But one, I'm trying to limit
11:48
my caffeine intake. So like, I can't always do
11:52
a cup of coffee. And then two is it like limits
11:56
you to a morning or early afternoon meeting.
11:59
And mornings are usually really busy for people
12:02
that are busy people. And then three is a coffee
12:07
can only take 15 minutes to drink. So it's like,
12:10
I understand that you're trying to be cognizant
12:12
of their time and you're like, hey. It's very
12:15
quick. Let's just grab a cup of coffee. But that's
12:18
not what you want to do. You actually want to
12:20
pick their brain. And conversations don't really
12:22
get cooking until about 30 minutes into the conversation.
12:26
And I think that's getting them breakfast, getting
12:29
them lunch. That's my go -to. Don't do dinners
12:31
too intimate. Breakfast or lunch. That's right.
12:33
That's right. Yeah. Good. Good advice. Good advice.
12:36
Okay. How do you approach building relationships
12:39
with investors, mentors, or co -founders in the
12:45
startup world? I follow a really simple rule.
12:48
I just treat people the way that I want to be
12:50
treated. Some guy said that. I can't remember
12:52
his name. It's a simple rule. It's golden, if
12:58
you will. And so for investors, mentors, business
13:02
partners. I always just do the best I can to
13:05
treat them exactly the way I would want to be
13:07
treated in any situation. And so investors, that
13:11
means being cognizant of their time, understanding
13:14
that they are extremely busy. They're talking
13:17
to a bunch of different companies at once. They
13:19
have to say no 99 % of the time and to not be
13:23
upset or take it personally. If they say no,
13:25
always be courteous when they give you their
13:28
time. And talk to them like human beings. I think
13:30
that founders, I was guilty of this early in
13:32
my career, for sure. Like in my early 20s, mid
13:34
20s, when we were raising money for my last company,
13:37
where I wasn't the founder, but I was on the
13:39
founding team and I was in these meetings. I
13:42
looked at these investors, like they were so
13:44
far above me. I was intimidated, right? Like
13:48
I didn't want to say the wrong thing. But my
13:51
friend Jackie, who was the founder of the last
13:54
company that I was at, I actually loved her perspective
13:57
on this. She would just say, these people just
14:00
want to be treated like people. They just want
14:03
to be treated like everyday people, like your
14:06
friend. And that's what I've always taken with
14:08
me. And that's been really successful. It's like
14:10
just talking to them like normal human beings.
14:12
And then when it comes to mentors, again, you've
14:15
got to ask people if they're willing to mentor
14:18
you. It's got to be a double opt -in relationship.
14:20
It cannot be, I need your mentorship. I want
14:23
your mentorship. Give it to me. Can I please
14:25
have it? You, it has to be a two -way relationship
14:28
where they opt in and they are committed to giving
14:31
you their time. If they do that, I do like to
14:33
ask for regular time. So I don't like to, I do
14:36
like sporadic stuff where it's like, Hey, can
14:38
I call you if I have a question? But I also like
14:40
if it's some, Hey, can we meet every Friday at
14:43
4 PM and we'll get a beer or again, my treat,
14:47
something like that. And it's a good way to end
14:49
the week and you get their advice. And the last
14:51
thing I'll say is. Come to them with a ton of
14:54
questions all ready to go. Don't waste their
14:57
time. Because if they spend an hour with you
14:59
and they feel like they're not giving you any
15:01
help or advice, they're probably going to come
15:03
back to you and say, hey, I don't think this
15:04
is a good use of my time. I don't know if this
15:06
is a good use of your time. And that's the last
15:08
thing you want. So make sure that you come ready
15:10
with questions and advice that you need. That's
15:14
very good. You have to remember that your mentor
15:18
is also a person in business. I'm a mentor to
15:23
five or six people, probably now three or four
15:26
people. But I have a mentor myself. So it's like
15:30
a chain that you're growing up. I coach students
15:33
and have a class with them every week. But I
15:36
have my mentor hour with each of them on a specific
15:42
day. And I ask for an hour on a specific day
15:48
for my mentor. And you're right. It's got to
15:51
be a give and take. And both sides really have
15:54
to get something out of it. Being a mentor, you're
15:57
getting the ability to help somebody else. That's
16:01
what I get. Right. And I'm answering questions
16:04
and everything else. So, yes, that's very important
16:07
for being a mentor. Now, just give me this in
16:11
your opinion. What's the difference between networking
16:14
and relationship building? Oh, that's a tough
16:20
one. Just because, so I've always been one, and
16:24
this is funny because you probably see differently
16:25
on this, or maybe we just don't define terms
16:28
the same. I have always had a healthy dislike
16:31
of networking. And the reason is because I don't
16:36
like feeling like someone is talking to me just
16:39
because they want or need something. And I don't
16:43
like feeling like I'm only talking to somebody
16:45
because I want or need something. To me, that
16:48
feels very inhuman and it feels very like Machiavellian.
16:53
And so I really like thinking about networking
16:56
and relationship building as really one and the
16:59
same. And this kind of goes back to what I said
17:01
a second ago is treat people the way you want
17:03
to be treated. I just go to events and I will
17:07
talk to people about anything. It doesn't have
17:11
to do with business. It can be family, current
17:15
events, topical stuff, sports. And if I establish
17:20
a relationship with someone, then I've networked
17:23
with them. Does that make sense? So I don't see
17:25
them as distinct, actually. I actually would
17:28
prefer if networking was not really a thing and
17:33
people didn't go to these things with the expectation
17:36
of meeting someone who could help them climb.
17:40
But rather, if they just went to these things
17:42
looking for friends and looking for people that
17:45
became part of who they are. And I think friends
17:49
are the pieces of you that you carry around and
17:52
that you get to share with the world. And so
17:54
the more friends you have, the more of these
17:56
pieces that you get to share with the world.
17:58
And so I've got a lot of friends. I love my friends.
18:01
I have very deep relationships with them. I don't
18:04
have few. I have many. And I consider most of
18:07
my business contacts friends as well. I don't
18:09
really have that delineation that some people
18:11
have, that hard delineation between business
18:14
and personal. When you go to a networking event,
18:18
first of all, you have to go with a servant's
18:22
heart. You have to look to give and not to receive.
18:27
You should have that in your mind before you
18:29
even go. And I didn't develop this, of course.
18:34
I stole it from somebody else. F -O -R -M, family,
18:39
occupation, recreation, and a message. I have
18:43
all that so that I can build up a rapport with
18:46
somebody. And when I walk up to them and I speak
18:49
to them, I'm asking them about themselves, about
18:52
what they do. If family comes into it, recreation
18:55
comes into it, whatever. But I have them talking
18:58
about themselves. And then really what I wind
19:02
up with is I say, okay, how can I make you more
19:05
successful? I'd be a good referral source for
19:08
you. And with a three or four hour event, you
19:11
come back with about 15 or 20 business cards.
19:14
I used to, listen, I was in a mortgage field.
19:17
I went to a networking event. I came home with
19:20
a shoe box filled with business cards. And it
19:24
was worthless. But if I come back with that 15
19:27
or 20, I can follow up properly. Impersonally.
19:33
Impersonally. And you're right. And so that's
19:35
the difference. Ever since the pandemic, people
19:39
lost their minds. They forgot how to network.
19:41
They forgot how to communicate. They forgot everything.
19:44
So I'm going around teaching them how to get
19:48
back in touch. I'm trying to make them a better
19:51
version of themselves. Okay. That's my whole.
19:57
I guess for me, and I agree with you, one of
20:01
the rules that I followed my whole career that
20:04
I learned early on when I was a recruiter is
20:07
that people will do business with people they
20:10
like, and they will not do business with people
20:13
they don't like. And in fact, they trust and
20:17
they will inconvenience themselves to avoid doing
20:20
business with people they don't like or trust.
20:23
And so that I think is really important as well
20:26
as you've got to be likable. And a good way to
20:29
be likable is not to be asking for something.
20:32
Like I was at an event the other day. It was
20:34
definitely like a networking event, but it was
20:36
also like, it was like for startup founders in
20:38
Miami. And we were, we had probably 40 people
20:41
there and we were talking and laughing and we
20:44
had breakout sessions and stuff and everything
20:48
was great. And it was like a very fun event.
20:51
And I was actually very surprised at how like
20:53
organic and nice it felt. And it was also for
20:56
people like find co -founders and build their
20:58
next thing. And at the very end, this guy came
21:02
up to me, I'm not trying to crush him. But he
21:04
just was like, hey, like I heard you have an
21:07
e -commerce company, Sheets and Giggles. And
21:09
I was like, yeah. And then he was like, how do
21:12
you do your marketing? And I was like, all the
21:16
usual suspects, like Google, Facebook, Instagram,
21:19
TikTok, YouTube, like radio podcasts. And he's
21:23
like, well, I have a marketing agency. I do all
21:25
that. I help with all that. And I was like, all
21:28
right. I was like, thanks. I'm not going to hire
21:33
you. 45 seconds he could have cared less about
21:37
like me my company who I was he just wanted to
21:41
let me know that he could sell something to me
21:43
and I was like great what an awful aftertaste
21:47
to have after a really fun night getting to know
21:49
people yeah there's a mantra for networking if
21:54
they know you if they like you and trust you
21:57
they'll do business with you yeah so to know
22:01
you like you went to that that get together,
22:04
40 people or so, everybody knew you because you're
22:06
a nice guy. You're a good looking guy. Hey, everything's
22:08
fine, right? But like you, that now is the field
22:12
down because you may have said something to somebody
22:14
or somebody that it didn't go very well, but
22:18
like you, it brings it down a little bit. But
22:20
trust factor, that brings it down even more because
22:23
they don't know you and you don't know them.
22:26
So that trust factor is an intricate part of
22:29
the mantra. but know you like you and trust you.
22:32
And then people will start to do business with
22:35
you. Yep. Yep. It's carbon horse. And I think
22:39
people will very often screw up that order. Absolutely.
22:43
Yeah, absolutely. How can somebody just starting
22:47
out maybe with no title or traction create a
22:51
valuable connection? Oh. I see this a lot with
22:57
college students and with new grads that are
22:59
trying to become entrepreneurs. It's so hard
23:01
for them. First off, I think it's really hard
23:04
to make connections over LinkedIn. So I really
23:07
don't recommend that that's where you spend your
23:09
time. People, humans are social creatures. So
23:13
I would very much advise people to spend time
23:16
at in -person events, events hosted by university,
23:19
events hosted. On Meetup, now there's tons and
23:23
tons of event apps and pages and stuff like that.
23:27
So look for networking apps, look for Meetup
23:30
apps, go to them. Look, you're going to have
23:32
to wade through a lot of waist -high sand to
23:36
find people that are worth meeting. And when
23:39
you do find people that are worth meeting, that's
23:43
when you have to be ready to make that connection,
23:45
be personable, buy them lunch. I think that's
23:48
probably the best advice that I mentioned earlier
23:49
is I'll take lunch from anybody anytime, right?
23:52
As long as they're not completely awful to spend
23:54
an hour with. And that's going to be your best
23:58
bet is like those in -person connections. And
24:01
don't be afraid to like, I said earlier, don't
24:03
come off as desperate, but don't be afraid to
24:06
humble yourself a little bit and to say, hey,
24:08
look, I'm a new grad. I'm early in my career.
24:11
I don't have a lot of connections. I'm super
24:13
interested in the space that you're in. I'm really
24:15
excited to learn more about XYZ. Do you think
24:18
that you maybe have time to grab lunch with me
24:20
and tell me a little bit more about your journey?
24:22
And I'd love to understand more about where you're
24:25
coming from. I think that's a good way to ask
24:28
people and to get mentorship. You don't need
24:30
a title or anything like that. It's definitely
24:32
at some point, everybody wants to meet with you.
24:35
And that transition happens fast, man. I remember,
24:38
I'll never forget, it was 2018 and I was launching.
24:44
my crowdfunding campaign for Sheets and Giggles.
24:46
And I was just this random dude in Denver that
24:50
had been through Techstars, but like nobody really
24:53
knew me. And I was running a crowdfunding campaign
24:55
and it was going to do really well. I knew it
25:00
was going to do really well. And I had done a
25:01
lot of preparation for it. I had done the videos,
25:04
the photos, the email gathering. I had set up
25:07
the pages. I had my agency ready to go. I had
25:09
all these different things. And I reached out
25:12
in February or March, I think it was March of
25:14
2018 to Denver Startup Week. And I was like,
25:18
hey, I would love to do a panel or a session
25:20
on crowdfunding. I think a lot of people would
25:23
need help. Crowdfunding would be great for early
25:25
entrepreneurs to understand how to run a successful
25:28
crowdfund. And Denver Startup Week emailed me
25:31
back very politely. And they said, hey, Colin,
25:33
with all due respect. that's great that you're
25:36
launching this company. You should actually launch
25:39
it and do something before you want to give advice
25:42
to other people. And I said, okay, that's fair.
25:47
And I ended up doing the crowdfund. We raised
25:50
about $300 ,000 in pre -orders for our bedsheets,
25:53
biggest bedsheet campaign of all time on Indiegogo.
25:57
And then six months after that, in September
26:00
2018, I won first place at a Denver Startup Week
26:03
pitch competition. And I was the number one startup
26:06
in Denver and everybody saw me on stage and I
26:09
blew the house down. And then the next year in
26:13
2019, they invited me to judge the pitch competition.
26:17
And I hosted a panel every year at Denver Startup
26:21
Week after that. And so it's so funny that they
26:24
asked me to do it. And it's so funny to think
26:26
about how fast I can change. Same guy, same knowledge,
26:30
six months later. everybody wanted to know me.
26:34
It's your credibility. It's credibility for sure.
26:38
But like, I find it interesting that people aren't
26:41
able to differentiate between people who like
26:44
have it and people who don't. That always blows
26:47
my mind, whether it's with like startup founders
26:49
or employees or politicians, people seem to be
26:54
really unable to talk to someone and just immediately
26:59
know this guy has it. This woman has it, like
27:03
this person has it. And so they always look for
27:06
that indicator. They always look for that traction
27:08
in order to have that credibility. So I would
27:12
also say a corollary to this that's really unfortunate
27:14
is that in America, oftentimes for people, wealth
27:18
equals wisdom because wealth is that like tangible
27:21
credibility. God, I have seen in my career that
27:25
is not true. There's not equal wisdom. And so
27:30
that's the unfortunate side effect of this is
27:32
people will gravitate towards the wrong people
27:34
because they think that they know something they
27:37
don't. When in reality, they either inherited
27:39
their money, maybe they got lucky, maybe they're
27:42
very unethical. There's a bunch of different
27:44
reasons why that is. And a lot of people work
27:48
hard for their money. So I'm just saying, it's
27:50
not the great barometer that people think it
27:52
is. Yeah, no, it's not. I have found very wealthy
27:56
people that really are dumber than a box of rocks.
28:01
They just, they're just, how did you possibly
28:04
get this wealthy? Because you don't know anything.
28:09
And sometimes, sorry, I don't mean to cut you
28:11
off. Sometimes I think it's because they're actually
28:15
too dumb. Sorry, this is really uncharitable.
28:18
And this is not everyone I want to explain. But
28:21
some people are too dumb to ever introspect.
28:25
And they never stop and think, am I good? Do
28:30
I deserve this? Am I good enough? What am I doing
28:32
wrong? They don't have that imposter syndrome.
28:34
And sometimes it's like a superpower because
28:36
they literally can just go for it. And they think
28:40
that they're God's gift to mankind. And they
28:43
will just go and get it and grab everything they
28:47
can and have no second thoughts about it. I can't
28:51
do that. I don't, I always have second thoughts
28:54
about, am I doing things the right way? Am I
28:56
deserving of this? Am I giving back enough? All
28:59
those things. Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to
29:01
cut you off, but. No, it's, I'm always looking
29:04
into myself after I do a speaking engagement
29:07
or workshop or something else like that. I'm
29:10
looking like what. What can I do better? What
29:13
did I screw up on? Oh my God, I was so bad. I
29:15
shouldn't have said that. But, and have all the
29:18
tools. I have the QR code leading to my Google
29:21
doc sheet. Did I do this? This was it. And give
29:24
me a couple of stars. I have everything. Okay.
29:27
But I have to look within myself to see how well
29:29
I did. And that's not so easy to do. Have you
29:33
ever made a networking mistake that taught you
29:37
something important? A mistake or faux pas? Oh,
29:43
yeah. Oh, yeah. I've got a good one. When I was
29:46
25, I was going through Techstars Boulder. And
29:49
you can hear me now. I'm honest. And I'm not
29:53
mean. I really try to always be charitable to
29:57
people as best I can and try not to be an asshole.
29:59
But I definitely speak my mind. And especially
30:03
when my friends are hurting, I will speak my
30:06
mind. And I was 25 almost 10 years ago now. I
30:10
just moved to Colorado from Seattle for Techstars
30:13
Boulder 2015. And one of my friends who was CEO
30:18
of the company that I moved my whole life to
30:21
Colorado for was basically in tears because an
30:25
investor had told her no and had told her no
30:29
in a very, I think, aggressive, really unprofessional.
30:34
And I was in a coffee shop with her and I just
30:38
moved there like a week. before, two weeks before.
30:40
And I remember saying very vividly, look, if
30:43
that guy said that and he passed on you, then
30:47
that guy's a fucking idiot. And that's what I
30:50
said. I was like, I was trying to comfort my
30:52
friend. And also like, I'm sure there was a kernel
30:55
of truth in there. And then I'll never forget,
30:57
I got called into the Techstars main office like
31:01
two hours later. And they were like, hey. You're
31:05
new to Colorado, huh? I was like, yeah, I just
31:07
got here like a week and a half ago. And they're
31:10
like, yeah, so it's a really small world out
31:12
here. And you were at a coffee shop that everyone
31:15
goes to in this town. And somebody heard you
31:19
call someone a fucking idiot. And that immediately
31:24
got back to me before you left the coffee shop.
31:26
And I was like, oh my God. I was like, and then
31:29
I remember literally trying to mount a defense
31:31
in the office. And I was like, the reason he
31:33
passed was X, Y, and Z. And they were like, Colin,
31:35
whatever the case, you cannot say that about
31:39
people like in this community. Like you will
31:42
build a bad reputation very rapidly. And I, I
31:46
don't know if it's because I'm. I don't know.
31:49
I don't know why I did that aside from just trying
31:51
to comfort my friend. But that was such an important
31:54
moment for me because I was like, and that's
31:57
unlocked this thing that I tell people as a lesson
31:59
is speak well about people behind their back.
32:03
That is like one of my maybe a superpower is
32:06
I will sing somebody's praises often when they're
32:10
not around. And that I think also gets back to
32:15
people. And so that was, I think, a big moment
32:18
for me. I don't think I've ever spoken poorly
32:20
about somebody behind their back in the last
32:22
decade since that moment. Because it's not worth
32:25
it. And it's really not. It's not. And it taught
32:30
you a valuable lesson. And you learned from that
32:34
lesson. So I think it worked out pretty well.
32:37
I think it was funny when it happened. It was
32:40
embarrassing. It was a little embarrassing. Okay.
32:43
But I think it was good that it happened. And
32:46
listen, I went to the school of hard knocks.
32:49
I did everything wrong before I did it right.
32:53
So I had to learn things on the fly, just as
32:57
you did. But that was very good. In today's digital
33:01
first world, how can professionals make meaningful
33:05
connections without always being face to face?
33:10
Yeah, if you're asking specifically how to do
33:13
when you're not face -to -face, that is a toughie.
33:15
I would say going through existing warm introductions
33:21
is obviously the best way to do it. Don't force
33:25
a warm introduction. Don't go to somebody that
33:27
you barely know. And be like, hey, can you introduce
33:30
me to this other person that you barely know?
33:33
Because then it's just like, it's not a warm
33:35
introduction. It's kind of like an annoying,
33:37
hey, Colin, I met you one time at this event
33:40
like four years ago. And this other person who
33:43
I've met one time asked me, they saw I was chatting
33:46
with you on LinkedIn and they asked me to introduce
33:48
you. That's not a good way to go about it. So
33:51
I would say like actual warm introductions where
33:55
you connect with people, you get to know them.
33:59
And then organically, it could be months or years
34:03
later, like having known these people. If you
34:07
then ask them, hey, do you know anyone in this
34:12
field or this space? That's a really good way
34:16
to do it. So I would reach out to your personal
34:18
connection that you're really strong ones right
34:20
now. And I would ask them, do you know anyone?
34:25
that can help me with this and then they will
34:28
somebody will come to their mind that they have
34:30
a connection with and they may not even be connected
34:32
to that person on linkedin right because your
34:35
best am i connected to my best friend in the
34:37
world on linkedin no actually like most of them
34:40
not at all And so like most of my strongest connections
34:45
are actually offline or at least they're off
34:48
LinkedIn. And so you may miss the forest for
34:51
the trees completely. If you look at my Rolodex
34:53
on LinkedIn and you want to know who I know,
34:55
it's very much my strongest connections are not
34:58
on that platform. Yeah, it reminds me of my time
35:02
when I was sitting behind a desk. I had two Rolodexes.
35:06
They were filled. And now with digital and everything
35:10
else, it's a little bit less. And I don't have
35:12
that. I have my home desk. But the digital world,
35:15
because you can have your thousands and thousands
35:17
of connections on LinkedIn, but they're not relationships.
35:21
They're not relationships. That's the key. What
35:24
is your go -to networking move, something you
35:29
do consistently that brings results? It's so
35:37
funny. The best advice for all, and then totally
35:41
different for different people, depends on your
35:43
skills and your natural charisma and your extemporaneous
35:45
speaking ability. And first off, taking extemporaneous
35:49
speaking class, that may be a good tip. That's
35:52
one of the best things I've ever done. When I
35:53
was 13 years old, I took extemporaneous speaking
35:55
the summer before high school. And you had to
35:59
get, you had five minutes to memorize, to write
36:03
and memorize. So you had 30 minutes to write
36:07
and memorize a five minute speech on a random
36:11
topic that you pulled out of a hat. And that
36:14
was something like that was so educational for
36:18
me in terms of how to actually come up with something
36:22
on the fly and speak to people organically without
36:25
sounding like it's prepared. And so that may
36:28
be a good tip is go take an extemporaneous speaking
36:30
class and learn how to actually speak without
36:33
thinking. And then the second thing I would say
36:36
is, again, there's an old adage. If you want
36:41
money, ask for advice. And if you want advice,
36:44
ask for money. And I think that's really true
36:48
in networking. If you want network connections,
36:52
try to build, like, I think. So don't approach
36:59
it. If you want professional connections, be
37:02
personal. Like what you were saying earlier with
37:05
the form is that I don't think about it in those
37:08
terms, but if I can get to know somebody on a
37:11
personal level, what they do, why they do it,
37:14
why it speaks to them, why they dedicated their
37:16
lives to this, what their major challenges are,
37:19
like all these things are good questions to ask
37:22
people, but not in an interrogatory way. That's
37:25
the other thing is like people, sometimes people
37:26
interrogate me. They're like, what are your biggest
37:28
challenges right now? And I'm like, oh dude,
37:30
I have so much anxiety. Don't make me list out.
37:33
My biggest challenge is right now, I go to sleep
37:36
thinking about these business problems. I don't
37:39
ask me if I'm excited that the Panthers are defending
37:42
the Stanley Cup or ask me if I have any kids
37:45
or if I have any nieces and nephews or ask me
37:48
where I'm from and like where I went to school.
37:50
And that's what I like to do with people. And
37:53
then once I get to know them, like it's just
37:55
an organic conversation. So that's my best advice
37:57
to people as much as you possibly can. Just talk
38:00
to people like a normal conversation. That's
38:04
great advice. Great advice. That's where form
38:08
comes in. That's just to help you bring in different
38:12
ideas of different people, different things,
38:14
whatever. But that is great sound advice. Anybody
38:18
that's listening should really listen to that.
38:21
Now let's bring this full circle. What mindset
38:25
should people adopt if they want to build a network
38:29
that leads to real opportunity, not just business
38:32
cards? Oh, you should be the person that everyone
38:41
leaves the room thinking about. I guess that's
38:46
maybe the best way to put it. And part of this
38:50
is knowing your audience, right? So this also
38:54
goes back to pitching in front of a crowd. If
38:57
you know your audience and you understand the
39:00
feeling you want to leave them with, like when
39:03
I pitch in front of a crowd, when I get off the
39:06
stage, I want every, first off, you have to know
39:09
your audience. Are they investors? Are they buyers?
39:11
Or are they lay people? Are they just there to
39:15
be entertained? Who is your audience? And then
39:18
once you understand who they are, you can understand
39:20
how you want to make them feel. So if you go
39:22
to a networking event and your audience is other
39:24
professionals who are busy, who are working on
39:27
their own problems, who are consumed with their
39:30
own things, okay, great. They don't really give
39:33
a fuck about my problems or like the things that
39:36
I'm working on necessarily. Maybe they care more
39:40
about people who have a common empathy and understanding
39:44
for the challenges that they're going through.
39:47
And maybe they want a friend who they can talk
39:50
to openly. without fear of being judged or a
39:54
fear of being too vulnerable because startup
39:57
CEOs are never allowed to take off their rose
40:01
-colored optimism glasses. They're never allowed
40:03
to speak freely about the challenges that face
40:05
their company. And so if I go to a networking
40:08
event and I understand that these people are
40:11
people like me and I can empathize with them
40:13
and I can make them feel like when they leave
40:16
the room, like, that guy Colin? I can be open
40:19
with him. I can be myself with him. I can be
40:22
vulnerable with him. And I feel like he's being
40:26
honest with me, so I will be honest with him.
40:29
That is, I think, the best feeling that I like
40:31
to leave people with. And so I think that's probably
40:34
the best rule I can give you is know your audience,
40:37
understand the feeling you want to leave them
40:40
with, and then go out and achieve that. And there's
40:44
multiple ways to achieve your goal. And you'll
40:47
get a lot of clarity in thinking about when I
40:49
leave the room, how are they going to feel? Are
40:52
they going to feel like I was selling them something?
40:54
Are they going to feel like I only gave a shit
40:56
about their credit card number? Are they going
40:58
to feel like I'm desperate? Are they going to
41:00
feel like I'm a entrepreneur? Are they going
41:03
to feel like I have no valuable experience to
41:05
share, that I can't empathize with them, that
41:08
I was self -absorbed? Those are all things that
41:11
people do feel about people when they leave networking
41:14
events. Like every single time you go to one,
41:17
you will meet people that make you feel exactly
41:19
like that. And so that's a disaster. You never
41:21
want that. Think hard and decide before you go
41:24
in how they're going to feel about you when you
41:25
leave. That's great advice. That's a great advice
41:28
for anybody. Even I'm thinking about how I leave
41:32
the room, how I leave people, because I want
41:35
them to have the lasting impression of my talk
41:38
and everything else. That's great advice. Colin,
41:41
I can't begin to tell you how I enjoyed this
41:45
podcast, because you spoke about everything that
41:48
I truly believe in. If somebody wanted to get
41:51
hold of you, how would they get hold of you?
41:54
I am very easy to find. I am on LinkedIn, but
41:57
I do not post. I do not subscribe to the LinkedIn
42:01
lunatic theory of networking. Although there
42:04
are some valuable posts on there sometimes. But
42:06
Colin McIntosh, you can find me at my two main
42:09
companies, Sheets and Giggles. And then if you're
42:12
a job hunter and you need some resume help, sheetsresume
42:15
.com is my passion project that I do on the side.
42:19
And my emails, I think for both of those sites
42:21
are public on the website and you can reach me
42:24
pretty easily. That's great. Colin, thank you
42:27
for coming on the podcast. I hope everybody enjoyed
42:30
what you had to say. Thanks, Michael. I appreciate
42:33
you having this really fun conversation. Well,
42:36
hold on, folks. Don't go anywhere. Let me just
42:39
read a few of our sponsors that we have. Struggling
42:43
to reach success? Maybe it's time to quit. In
42:46
Quit Your Way to Success. by Rodney Davis. This
42:50
reveals 27 steps to breaking bad habits that
42:54
hold you back. This powerful book helps you rewire
42:57
your mindset, take control of your actions, and
43:01
turn setbacks into stepping stones. With real
43:04
-life examples, motivational quotes, and actionable
43:07
lessons, especially for sales professionals,
43:11
you'll gain the tools to quit what's stopping
43:13
you and start winning. Transform your future
43:16
today. So Quit Your Way to Success by Rodney
43:19
Davis, available now on Amazon. And this is a
43:24
nonprofit called Revved Up Kids. This is something
43:27
I believe in wholeheartedly. Revved Up Kids is
43:31
on a mission to protect children and teens from
43:34
sexual abuse, exploitation, and trafficking.
43:37
They provide prevention training programs for
43:40
children. teens, and adults. To learn more, go
43:44
to revvedupkids .org. That's R -E -V -V -E -D
43:48
-U -P -K -I -D -S .org. Well, that's a wrap,
43:56
folks. A huge thank you to our special guests
43:59
for sharing such incredible insights today. And
44:02
of course, a big shout out to you, our amazing
44:05
listeners, for tuning in and spending your time
44:08
with us. Remember, networking isn't about being
44:12
perfect. It's about being present. So take what
44:15
you've learned today, get out there, and make
44:18
some meaningful connections. If you enjoyed this
44:21
episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave us
44:24
a review, and share it with someone who could
44:27
use a little networking inspiration. Let's keep
44:30
the conversation going. You can find me on Apple,
44:34
Spotify, YouTube, or my website, Michael. Remember.
44:39
Until next time, keep practicing, keep connecting,
44:42
and keep building those relationships. This is
44:45
Michael A. Foreman signing off. Take care and
44:48
happy networking. being coached, or having me
45:08
come and talk to your company, just go to Michael
45:12
and fill out the request form. Remember, networking
45:16
isn't about being perfect. It's about being present.
45:19
So take what you've learned today, get out there,
45:22
and make some meaningful connections. If you've
45:25
enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to
45:28
subscribe. Leave us a review and share it with
45:31
someone who could use a little networking inspiration.
45:34
Let's keep the conversation going. You can find
45:37
me on Apple, Spotify, Pandora, YouTube, or my
45:42
website, foreman .com slash podcasts.