Latest / Pod Save America / Are RFK Jr. & MAHA Coming for Your Vaccine?

Transcript

Are RFK Jr. & MAHA Coming for Your Vaccine? · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. For our
0:22
Speaker 1: Sunday show this week, we're going to do a deep
0:24
Speaker 1: dive into Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the Make America Healthy
0:27
Speaker 1: Again movement, and the dangerous changes to vaccine policy happening
0:30
Speaker 1: right now. While Trump's illegal deportations, unconstitutional airstrikes, and crypto
0:34
Speaker 1: scams get most of the attention, RFK Jr. is quietly
0:37
Speaker 1: dismantling the public health infrastructure that Americans have depended on
0:41
Speaker 1: for decades. These changes and the rise of the MAHA
0:43
Speaker 1: movement are having a profound and dangerous effect on our
0:46
Speaker 1: science and our politics. My guest this week is someone
0:49
Speaker 1: who's been keeping tabs on MAHA and RFK Jr. since
0:52
Speaker 1: the very beginning. Dr. Caitlin Gedalina began writing The Substack,
0:55
Speaker 1: your local epidemiologist in the early days of the COVID pandemic,
0:59
Speaker 1: and it's now the platform's top science newsletter. She's an
1:02
Speaker 1: epidemiologist and data scientist and the co-host of the America
1:05
Speaker 1: Dissected podcast with former Crooked collaborator Dr. Abdul El-Sayed. I
1:10
Speaker 1: invited her on the show to discuss what this movement is,
1:12
Speaker 1: why it's resonating with so many people, whether there's anything
1:15
Speaker 1: we can do to stop it. Caitlin Gedalina, welcome to
1:17
Speaker 1: Pod Save America.
1:18
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here.
1:21
Speaker 1: I have so much I want to talk to you about.
1:23
Speaker 1: I have been thinking and worrying about what's happening with
1:27
Speaker 1: RFK Jr. and HHS and the Maha movement and vaccines
1:31
Speaker 1: for a long time. So we have a lot to
1:32
Speaker 1: get to. But I want to start with this week's
1:34
Speaker 1: meeting of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, the
1:39
Speaker 1: committee that sets vaccine policy in this country. Before we
1:42
Speaker 1: get into the specifics of this meeting, can you just
1:46
Speaker 1: level set here on what that committee does the role
1:49
Speaker 1: it plays, and the changes that RFK Jr. has made
1:52
Speaker 1: to that committee that are concerning to so many?
1:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. So it's called ACIP, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices,
2:01
Speaker 2: and it's basically an external committee of typically experts in vaccinology, pediatrics, medicine, epidemiology,
2:11
Speaker 2: I mean, you name it. And it plays a really
2:14
Speaker 2: important role in the way we get vaccines and medical
2:19
Speaker 2: products from clinical trials all the way into people's arms
2:24
Speaker 2: and access. And so this is just one step in
2:27
Speaker 2: a really robust and I guess I'm saying this all
2:32
Speaker 2: before of everything that's changed, but usually- Was robust, yes. Was, yeah,
2:37
Speaker 2: thank you. Was robust and grounded in evidence and very
2:42
Speaker 2: clear and really a well-oiled machine. And so their role
2:46
Speaker 2: in this process, so FDA first decides if a vaccine
2:50
Speaker 2: is safe and effective. That's basically the two questions they're answering.
2:55
Speaker 2: And then it goes to ACIP, which is the advisory
2:57
Speaker 2: committee for CDC, and they basically decide- Also, they look
3:02
Speaker 2: at the evidence if it's safe and effective, but more importantly,
3:04
Speaker 2: the policy. Who gets these vaccines, when, at what schedule, where,
3:10
Speaker 2: who's at high risk, et cetera. And then it gets
3:14
Speaker 2: signed by the CDC director, and then it becomes available
3:18
Speaker 2: to us. So what's happened in these past, I can't
3:21
Speaker 2: believe it's only been like two weeks, is that RFK Jr.
3:26
Speaker 2: all of a sudden completely gutted ACIP, they were 17 members,
3:32
Speaker 2: really highly qualified for policy decision making around vaccines, and
3:38
Speaker 2: basically handpicked eight people for their replacement. And these people
3:45
Speaker 2: that were replaced are people that all the way from
3:50
Speaker 2: have no experience whatsoever in vaccines, all the way to anti-vaxxers,
3:57
Speaker 2: some COVID contrarians. and really a mixed bag of wild
4:03
Speaker 2: people that are ultimately making decisions for 330 million Americans
4:08
Speaker 2: based on vaccines. This was always kind of a worry
4:12
Speaker 2: of ours in public health. The Health and Human Services
4:18
Speaker 2: Secretary has a number of levers to influence vaccine policy
4:23
Speaker 2: and uptake and access. This was a huge red line.
4:27
Speaker 2: that RFK Jr. crossed and is very concerning.
4:32
Speaker 1: The original 17 people who were on the committee, were
4:35
Speaker 1: they appointed by the Biden administration? Are they longstanding? Because
4:40
Speaker 1: you could look at this in one way, which is
4:42
Speaker 1: when a new president, new administration of a new party
4:44
Speaker 1: comes in, there are a whole bunch of people who
4:46
Speaker 1: are in the government who are political appointees or they're
4:48
Speaker 1: on boards and commissions. They resign and they get replaced
4:50
Speaker 1: by people who are more ideologically aligned with the new administration.
4:55
Speaker 1: That's not typically what happens here though, right?
4:57
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'll be honest, the ACIP appointments have
5:00
Speaker 2: always been somewhat opaque, but usually you're right. I mean,
5:05
Speaker 2: the appointments last for about four years. Biden administration, I
5:09
Speaker 2: think they put eight of those last 17 members in
5:12
Speaker 2: there because that just is what, you know, those terms end. Yeah,
5:16
Speaker 2: it's just, there's a turnover. And historically, I'll be honest,
5:19
Speaker 2: this process has been grounded in a nonpartisan belief system, right?
5:24
Speaker 2: That vaccine policy should be shaped by science and experience
5:28
Speaker 2: and diverse perspectives, not ideology. And that hasn't changed. for
5:33
Speaker 2: the past 70 years, whether it's a Republican or Democrat administration.
5:38
Speaker 2: So yeah, these appointments change over time, but it's never
5:45
Speaker 2: been based on necessarily ideology like it has. It's never
5:49
Speaker 2: been just this sweeping gutting of it. And the process
5:54
Speaker 2: in which this has happened has been incredibly swift and
5:58
Speaker 2: obviously been planned for a couple months to execute very quickly.
6:04
Speaker 1: One of the critiques you hear from people in the
6:08
Speaker 1: Maha movement, the RFK sort of junior acolytes, about ACIP
6:13
Speaker 1: and some of these other committees that advise, FDA, CDC, HHS,
6:17
Speaker 1: is that their ties are too close to pharma, the
6:19
Speaker 1: people who profit from these vaccines. What is the real
6:22
Speaker 1: truth there? Are there any legitimate, even grounded in the
6:25
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories of it, is there any legitimate concerns there?
6:29
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's a great point. We don't
6:32
Speaker 2: want people making policy decisions if they have a conflict
6:35
Speaker 2: of interest in pharma stock. I mean, I think that's
6:38
Speaker 2: completely legitimate. The thing that has been missing, though, is
6:42
Speaker 2: that these committees go through incredibly rigorous conflicts of interest vetting.
6:48
Speaker 2: And what's even more interesting to me is that RFK Jr.
6:55
Speaker 2: himself reaffirmed this process after he called for a full
6:59
Speaker 2: review of that ACIP, the last ones, committees disclosures, and
7:04
Speaker 2: nothing was found. I think a few people got like $ 3, 000
7:10
Speaker 2: here and there, but nothing, no smoking guns that were insinuated,
7:20
Speaker 2: and no systemic evidence of undue pharmaceutical influence on these members.
7:26
Speaker 2: I do find it highly... hypocritical because this new ACIP membership, sure,
7:37
Speaker 2: they don't have the typical pharmaceutical conflicts of interest, but
7:41
Speaker 2: we can't ignore that there's other conflicts of interest out there,
7:44
Speaker 2: including selling of supplements, anti-vaccine advocacy groups, making millions off
7:50
Speaker 2: of vaccine litigation trials, and none of that's been disclosed.
7:55
Speaker 1: And some of these people, they are proudly anti-vax, right?
7:58
Speaker 1: Like they have described themselves as that, right? This is
8:01
Speaker 1: not the pro-vaccine people ascribing people who may have questions,
8:05
Speaker 1: but these people have called themselves anti-vax, right?
8:07
Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, even one of the members right after,
8:11
Speaker 2: like a week or two ago, Robert Malone, who we've
8:14
Speaker 2: always known as very anti-vax, he writes about it all
8:17
Speaker 2: the time, came out on Twitter and said, Everyone says,
8:22
Speaker 2: you know, anti-vax is a bad thing. I'm proud of it.
8:25
Speaker 2: And I'm excited to serve on this committee. I mean,
8:28
Speaker 2: they're not even hiding it. It's just the next level
8:33
Speaker 2: to watch unfold.
8:35
Speaker 1: This movement here is in violation, at least in the
8:37
Speaker 1: spirit of what RFK Jr. probably promised during his confirmation hearings, right?
8:41
Speaker 1: Like he got a lot of questions about how he's
8:43
Speaker 1: going to handle vaccines and that science would lead it.
8:46
Speaker 1: The process would not be upended. But this is the
8:47
Speaker 1: upending of the process, right?
8:49
Speaker 2: Oh, completely. I mean, and it's not a surprise, right,
8:52
Speaker 2: to all of us in public health that are very
8:54
Speaker 2: familiar with RFK. I mean, he's had a 20, 30
8:58
Speaker 2: year history of ignoring evidence around vaccines and even, and
9:05
Speaker 2: sowing doubt in them. I mean, he founded Children's Health Defense,
9:09
Speaker 2: which is an anti-vax advocacy group that makes millions. And,
9:16
Speaker 2: and so they're, I guess this was not a surprise.
9:19
Speaker 2: But you're right. He did promise to Cassidy, who is
9:23
Speaker 2: the chair of the HELP committee, that he wouldn't upend ACIP.
9:27
Speaker 2: And he ended up doing it anyways. You know, Cassidy
9:30
Speaker 2: got played. And I don't think there's ever been a
9:33
Speaker 2: question of what the intent is from RFK and vaccines.
9:47
Speaker 3: Pod Save America is brought to you by the NPR
9:49
Speaker 3: Politics Podcast. Take it from us. Politics can be tough
9:53
Speaker 3: to talk about.
9:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.
9:54
Speaker 3: You know?
9:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.
9:55
Speaker 3: It's hard to explain. There's a lot of crazy stuff
9:58
Speaker 3: going on. But that's why the NPR Podcast is here.
10:00
Speaker 3: Politics Podcast is where you can go to decode what
10:03
Speaker 3: goes down in Washington and what every decision out there
10:05
Speaker 3: might mean for me and you. Every day, the NPR
10:08
Speaker 3: Politics Podcast team will focus on one thing and boil
10:11
Speaker 3: it down to 15 minutes or less. Think of it
10:13
Speaker 3: as your political multivitamin. That's why it's great. There's just
10:17
Speaker 3: one topic you want to learn more about. We'll break
10:20
Speaker 3: it down. Just 15 minutes. Perfect for if you're driving
10:23
Speaker 3: to work. And we love the NPR Politics podcast. Listen
10:27
Speaker 3: now to the NPR Politics podcast only from NPR wherever
10:30
Speaker 3: you get your podcasts.
10:31
Speaker 4: Do you ever look at political headlines and go, huh? Well,
10:35
Speaker 4: that's exactly why the NPR Politics podcast exists. We're experts,
10:40
Speaker 4: not just on politics, but in making politics make sense.
10:43
Speaker 4: Every episode, we decode everything that happened in Washington and
10:47
Speaker 4: help you figure out what it all means. Give politics
10:50
Speaker 4: a chance with the NPR Politics Podcast, available wherever you
10:54
Speaker 4: get your podcasts.
10:58
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what happened at the meeting this week.
11:01
Speaker 1: It took place Thursday and Friday. There were a number
11:03
Speaker 1: of items on the docket, including the flu vaccine, RSV,
11:06
Speaker 1: a couple of things. Tell us what happened there.
11:09
Speaker 2: Oh, it was exhausting to watch. I mean, it was
11:12
Speaker 2: basically watching a fox in the hen house or foxes
11:16
Speaker 2: in the hen house. You know, it followed the usual format.
11:21
Speaker 2: So if you just tuned in, it looked really legit.
11:24
Speaker 2: And some of it was, right? CDC scientists presented data
11:28
Speaker 2: And CDC scientists demonstrated really high competence, thorough, thoughtful, well-prepared,
11:33
Speaker 2: listened to questions, answered. But this new committee, I mean,
11:38
Speaker 2: it was just clear there are not vaccine experts. They
11:41
Speaker 2: questioned basic epidemiological methods. We tallied, my team tallied more
11:47
Speaker 2: than 50 falsehoods around vaccines mentioned in two days. It
11:52
Speaker 2: was very clear that with some of the decisions made,
11:56
Speaker 2: like around thimerosal and flu vaccines, that they began with
12:02
Speaker 2: conclusions and then attempted to force evidence to fit it.
12:06
Speaker 2: We call this policy-based evidence-making, not evidence-based policy-making. And so
12:13
Speaker 2: it was wild to watch. I mean, it was sobering.
12:17
Speaker 2: I don't even know what the word is.
12:19
Speaker 5: And....
12:20
Speaker 2: It really put into question what's going to happen. How
12:26
Speaker 2: does the health ecosystem, a broader health ecosystem, really step
12:32
Speaker 2: in to fill this gap? What are the legal implications,
12:36
Speaker 2: not only to our fall vaccines, but routine vaccines later on?
12:39
Speaker 2: I mean, it opened up, quite frankly, a lot of
12:43
Speaker 2: concern on my side.
12:44
Speaker 1: So what were the decisions they made? The most notable
12:47
Speaker 1: one involves thimerosal. Can you talk about that?
12:50
Speaker 5: Right.
12:51
Speaker 2: So thimerosal is in some of our flu shots. It
12:55
Speaker 2: is used across the globe. And it is a preservative
12:59
Speaker 2: within our vaccines. It basically makes sure that the vaccine
13:03
Speaker 2: formula doesn't have bacteria. It's really helpful. But this committee,
13:08
Speaker 2: based on falsehoods, voted to not recommend thimerosal flu vaccines,
13:13
Speaker 2: which means that they won't be given this fall. Now,
13:17
Speaker 2: this isn't that big of a deal. About 4% to
13:20
Speaker 2: 7% of our supply has thimerosal flu vaccine. So I'm
13:24
Speaker 2: not concerned about the supply. I'm much more concerned about
13:29
Speaker 2: the groundwork in which they did and how this is
13:31
Speaker 2: going to apply in the future to other vaccines like
13:34
Speaker 2: hep B or HPV or measles vaccine, for example. I'm
13:40
Speaker 2: also very concerned about the ripple effects that we'll have
13:44
Speaker 2: on the global community, given that a lot of vaccines
13:47
Speaker 2: out there include thimerosal because it is safe. There's literally
13:51
Speaker 2: no evidence to show it's unsafe. And then there's also
13:55
Speaker 2: possible implications on pandemic preparedness, biosecurity risk, and the need
14:02
Speaker 2: to use this in future vaccines. And so Overall, not
14:07
Speaker 2: a big deal, but does lay the groundwork.
14:10
Speaker 1: Let me just say on thimerosal, thimerosal has been part
14:13
Speaker 1: of a long running conspiracy theory tying it to autism, correctly?
14:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
14:18
Speaker 1: And there's no evidence to support that. We would be
14:20
Speaker 1: very clear on that, yes.
14:21
Speaker 2: Correct. It's very safe. And it is based on basically
14:24
Speaker 2: in the mid-1990s, we didn't know too much about the toxicity.
14:31
Speaker 2: And so we actually removed thimerosal from the vaccines out
14:35
Speaker 2: of precaution. But since then, there's been so many studies
14:39
Speaker 2: that demonstrated that it's very safe, especially at the levels
14:43
Speaker 2: used in vaccines.
14:45
Speaker 5: Okay.
14:46
Speaker 1: And now on to the other decisions made.
14:47
Speaker 3: Other ones.
14:48
Speaker 2: The other decision was RSV, that we were going to
14:52
Speaker 2: have RSV protection. In fact, we are going to have
14:56
Speaker 2: another monoclonal antibody for infants for RSV. And this is
15:01
Speaker 2: Not a vaccine, but it basically gives us antibodies or
15:04
Speaker 2: gives our infants antibodies to protect against RSV. Interestingly, there
15:11
Speaker 2: was not a vote for COVID vaccines. And that is
15:15
Speaker 2: definitely not normal. And we need recommendations for fall. And
15:19
Speaker 2: so it leaves huge questions around what will be available
15:23
Speaker 2: to who and when this fall for COVID vaccines.
15:27
Speaker 1: And so what does that mean in practice? If they
15:30
Speaker 1: never vote on it, will that mean there will be
15:32
Speaker 1: no COVID vaccines? How does that work exactly? I know
15:36
Speaker 1: we've never been down this road before, so you're speculating.
15:39
Speaker 2: Well, that's the big question, right? So, I mean, we
15:42
Speaker 2: know right now that manufacturers are making vaccines and they're
15:46
Speaker 2: based on last year's formula, not this year's formula, because
15:50
Speaker 2: FDA now says we have to do placebo controls that
15:52
Speaker 2: are not feasible and unethical, whatever, but they're making them.
15:56
Speaker 2: The question is eligibility. And the reason that's a big
15:59
Speaker 2: question is because in July, in a few weeks, physicians
16:03
Speaker 2: and hospital systems need to order these vaccines. These vaccines
16:06
Speaker 2: then need to be distributed. Then the public needs to
16:09
Speaker 2: have an expectation of what to get where. The physicians
16:12
Speaker 2: need to be educated. And so there's this, the insurers,
16:16
Speaker 2: we need to know if insurers are going to cover it, right?
16:19
Speaker 2: Because usually insurers only cover what ACIP recommends. And so
16:23
Speaker 2: there's this domino effect of what happens after a June
16:26
Speaker 2: ACIP meeting in regards to fall. And there's just, there's
16:31
Speaker 2: so many unanswered questions. I'm not sure how this plays out.
16:35
Speaker 2: I do think what's going to happen is we're going
16:37
Speaker 2: to see the formation of professional societies like American Academy
16:42
Speaker 2: of Pediatrics make recommendations and maybe even like a shadow
16:46
Speaker 2: ACIP to help fill this vacuum and get everyone, the
16:50
Speaker 2: fleet moving in the same direction and But I mean,
16:52
Speaker 2: time's a ticking and lives are on the stake.
16:55
Speaker 1: It's like there are so many like interests that are
16:58
Speaker 1: in conflict here, right? Where you have, so it's like
17:02
Speaker 1: you have these, pharma has made these vaccines, right? Who,
17:06
Speaker 1: and they want to sell them.
17:07
Speaker 2: Correct.
17:08
Speaker 1: You have insurance, which may not want to cover them because,
17:12
Speaker 1: and so it's just like, it's very like, we're obviously
17:14
Speaker 1: into the like sort of very dangerous uncharted waters. When
17:16
Speaker 1: does the committee meet again? Do they meet every month?
17:19
Speaker 3: October.
17:19
Speaker 2: They meet three times a year.
17:21
Speaker 1: So we will be- into flu and potentially COVID. Like
17:24
Speaker 1: the typical time, if I recall my many COVID shots
17:28
Speaker 1: I've had over the last five years here, we usually
17:30
Speaker 1: get the boosters in the fall, right? I think I
17:33
Speaker 1: get mine with the same time as my flu shot
17:34
Speaker 1: every year, right?
17:34
Speaker 2: Correct, yeah, yeah.
17:35
Speaker 1: And so it'll be October before they could even make
17:37
Speaker 1: a decision. So it's possible everything's on hold till then?
17:40
Speaker 2: Oh, October, they won't even make a decision. They're onto
17:42
Speaker 2: the next thing. They'll be talking about measles and vaccine
17:45
Speaker 2: schedules and everything in October. And so this was the
17:49
Speaker 2: meeting for that. And that's why there's a lot of confusion.
17:53
Speaker 2: And that's why the broader health ecosystem needs to step up.
17:57
Speaker 2: They need to find courage. They need to coordinate and
18:00
Speaker 2: have a united front to make sure that Americans have
18:04
Speaker 2: the confidence to make informed decisions.
18:07
Speaker 1: But they did approve the flu vaccine, right? Yes.
18:10
Speaker 2: So what's... Yeah. Flu, RSV, I would say are.
18:14
Speaker 5: guaranteed.
18:15
Speaker 2: And everyone over six months or whatever, the eligibility is
18:19
Speaker 2: there and you need to get protected. COVID is the
18:21
Speaker 2: big question.
18:22
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like a pretty giant deal that
18:25
Speaker 1: the committee just took. I mean, I know a lot's
18:28
Speaker 1: happening in the world. That's one of the reasons I
18:29
Speaker 1: want to have this conversation is that there's so much
18:31
Speaker 1: happening around all the other stuff Trump's doing. We're bombing Iran.
18:34
Speaker 1: There's these deportations. They're all huge deals. And right underneath
18:37
Speaker 1: the surface, there's massive changes happening to how public health
18:41
Speaker 1: is done in this country with real world implications to
18:44
Speaker 1: every person. And it doesn't get the attention. In a
18:47
Speaker 1: different environment, the committee filled with anti-vaxxers taking a pass
18:51
Speaker 1: on even considering the COVID booster when we've done it
18:54
Speaker 1: for every year since the pandemic seems kind of crazy
18:58
Speaker 1: to me.
18:59
Speaker 2: It is crazy.
19:00
Speaker 5: And you're right.
19:01
Speaker 2: I do think it's going below the surface. I mean,
19:04
Speaker 2: I try with my newsletter not to.
19:05
Speaker 1: You're doing everything you can.
19:06
Speaker 5: I know.
19:07
Speaker 2: I know.
19:07
Speaker 1: That's why we're having this conversation. Yes.
19:09
Speaker 3: Yeah.
19:10
Speaker 2: And there's a lot that people have to pay attention to.
19:12
Speaker 2: It's a magnetic storm and it's exhausting to keep up
19:16
Speaker 2: with everything. But it's our job in public health to
19:19
Speaker 2: keep really close tabs on this. And it's very concerning
19:22
Speaker 2: how it's unfolding right now.
19:25
Speaker 1: Does ACIP have to make recommendations on other longstanding vaccines?
19:30
Speaker 1: The one I'm thinking about most is MMR, the measles vaccine.
19:34
Speaker 1: I understand every year they're going to approve or not
19:36
Speaker 1: approve these new things that are coming up or new
19:37
Speaker 1: vaccines that come on the market. I'm not even going
19:39
Speaker 1: to get into what happens if we have another pandemic
19:41
Speaker 1: and they have to approve vaccines. We're in the middle
19:44
Speaker 1: of this measles outbreak. RFK Jr. and others have spread
19:49
Speaker 1: misinformation about. the measles vaccine and how to deal with measles.
19:54
Speaker 1: In a normal world, would the committee weigh in and
19:55
Speaker 1: tell people to go get a measles booster or how
19:58
Speaker 1: would that work?
19:59
Speaker 2: Right. So and this is what I actually think was
20:01
Speaker 2: the most concerning about this ACIP meeting this week was
20:05
Speaker 2: watching them start to lay the groundwork for routine vaccinations.
20:12
Speaker 2: In fact, the ACIP chair announced two work groups that
20:16
Speaker 2: are going to look into the routine childhood vaccination schedule
20:20
Speaker 2: and they're going to revisit vaccines that like hepatitis B
20:25
Speaker 2: and HPV and MMR vaccines. And so while they're very safe,
20:32
Speaker 2: they're very effective, I can kind of see where we
20:36
Speaker 2: in public health see where this is going and incredibly
20:40
Speaker 2: concerned about the future of routine vaccinations.
20:46
Speaker 1: I think one question, like you have a bunch of
20:48
Speaker 1: people who, you know, now on this committee or this
20:51
Speaker 1: minority in the Maha movement or the anti-vax movement who
20:54
Speaker 1: have concerns about vaccines. And now you have people who
20:56
Speaker 1: have always believed in vaccines, who vaccinate their kids on schedule,
21:00
Speaker 1: who's got the COVID vaccine, get their boosters. And now
21:03
Speaker 1: we have these questions potentially of a bunch of anti-vax
21:07
Speaker 1: cranks looking at our vaccines. You say in here that
21:12
Speaker 1: FDA are the ones who ensure the safety and efficacy.
21:16
Speaker 1: How much fear should there be that an RFK Jr.
21:20
Speaker 1: FDA is not even one gutted by Elon Musk and Doge?
21:23
Speaker 1: is not doing that part of the process, right? So
21:28
Speaker 1: someone's got to test it, make sure it's right, and
21:30
Speaker 1: then you've got a bunch of people who's got to
21:31
Speaker 1: approve it. How do we feel about the process in
21:35
Speaker 1: the testing and efficacy part?
21:37
Speaker 2: All of this is like a checks and balances movement.
21:41
Speaker 2: And so with FDA, the interesting thing about FDA is
21:44
Speaker 2: you have counterbalances that have huge lobbyists, right? We're talking
21:48
Speaker 2: about like pharma and like stepping up. And so I
21:51
Speaker 2: think that If FDA did something shady, so because usually
21:56
Speaker 2: in these FDA meetings, pharma companies present the data and
22:01
Speaker 2: then FDA scientists present the data and the assumption is
22:05
Speaker 2: that they match because that means that everyone's working in honesty.
22:09
Speaker 2: I think when they start not matching, you're going to
22:11
Speaker 2: hear an uproar from pharma. Give what you care about
22:17
Speaker 2: pharma companies, at least there's some sort of balance there.
22:22
Speaker 2: The challenge with CDC is there is no like counterbalance there.
22:27
Speaker 2: There's like not a lobbyist, I guess, that is like
22:30
Speaker 2: going to come out and be very angry that these
22:34
Speaker 2: policies are not recommended. And so like I think I'm
22:37
Speaker 2: a little less concerned with FDA than I am with
22:41
Speaker 2: CDC just because of that point. I don't know if
22:44
Speaker 2: that makes sense, but that's how I'm thinking about it.
22:47
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I don't want to trust big pharma.
22:49
Speaker 1: I understand.
22:49
Speaker 2: I know.
22:51
Speaker 1: But they do have a strong, if you believe that
22:54
Speaker 1: the problem with big pharma is that they want to
22:55
Speaker 1: make money above all else, they do have a strong
22:58
Speaker 1: financial interest in having effective vaccines and safe vaccines, right?
23:03
Speaker 1: Like if they don't, that's bad business if what they
23:06
Speaker 1: care about is business. But like, this is, I guess
23:09
Speaker 1: this is sort of the end result of what the
23:13
Speaker 1: anti-vax people want is they want to raise questions and
23:15
Speaker 1: all these things, right. To be able to cook, like
23:17
Speaker 1: you can see, like you mentioned, they're going to get
23:19
Speaker 1: to the schedules. It's one of the things you hear,
23:21
Speaker 1: you know, when you, when you're a parent of a
23:23
Speaker 1: young child, like really I'm supposed to stick my kid
23:25
Speaker 1: with all of these vaccines at one time on one day.
23:27
Speaker 1: And there's science for why you do it. But if
23:29
Speaker 1: they start raising questions about that, it's, you know, just it's,
23:33
Speaker 1: they're feeding doubt into the system. And when, and that can,
23:36
Speaker 1: that can metastasize over time.
23:37
Speaker 2: Oh my God, yeah. And you know what? I think
23:40
Speaker 2: we need to ground ourselves. And I try to think
23:42
Speaker 2: about this often. 95% of people agree with vaccines. I mean,
23:48
Speaker 2: when was the last time that many Americans agreed on something?
23:53
Speaker 2: And so what I'm very concerned about is that The
23:58
Speaker 2: very minority representation is now, one, making these decisions, but
24:02
Speaker 2: also have this huge megaphone around this sort of stuff.
24:09
Speaker 2: And it's going to start chipping away at that 90
24:13
Speaker 2: plus percent of Americans. I'm very concerned about that. So, yeah,
24:17
Speaker 2: we'll see how this plays out.
24:19
Speaker 1: We'll see. The last thing on vaccines here is RFK Jr.
24:24
Speaker 1: announced that the U.S. was no longer going to contribute
24:25
Speaker 1: to Gavi, the global vaccine compact. Talk a little about
24:29
Speaker 1: what that means for the world.
24:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible. So incredibly bad. So Gavi is this
24:38
Speaker 2: international collaboration that provides vaccines to half of the world's children.
24:45
Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking about a ton of people here.
24:48
Speaker 2: And Gavi just had a meeting this week where they
24:51
Speaker 2: basically plan for financial– it's financial planning for the next
24:55
Speaker 2: five years. And RFK comes. He recorded a video and
25:02
Speaker 2: Gavi played it. And it basically said that U.S. is
25:05
Speaker 2: removing its commitment to Gavi because of– and he just
25:08
Speaker 2: started spouting off anti-vax falsehoods. And so it wasn't necessarily
25:13
Speaker 2: about efficiency of the budget. It was literally anti-vax. And
25:17
Speaker 2: so– it's going to create this huge hole. I mean,
25:21
Speaker 2: we've saved billions of lives across the globe because of Gavi.
25:25
Speaker 2: The whole reason we needed Gavi was because there was
25:29
Speaker 2: a huge market gap for pharmaceutical companies because there wasn't
25:34
Speaker 2: really a market in low to middle income countries because
25:36
Speaker 2: they didn't have the money to pay for vaccines. And
25:40
Speaker 2: so it's, it's, it's, it's, I don't know. I don't
25:44
Speaker 2: even know how to say it. I mean, we're going
25:45
Speaker 2: to lose lives to this. It is cruel. It's cruel.
25:49
Speaker 2: And it's also, I think it's important that it's also
25:53
Speaker 2: already congressionally appropriated funds through 2030, first of all. And
25:58
Speaker 2: HHS doesn't even control those funds. It's through the State Department.
26:02
Speaker 2: So again, another example of just completely disregarding processes and
26:07
Speaker 2: lives will be lost because of it.
26:09
Speaker 1: And even like, I'm of the view, and call me
26:12
Speaker 1: a bleeding heart liberal here, that saving children's lives around
26:15
Speaker 1: the world is like an ending of itself. But even
26:17
Speaker 1: if you were to say, I only care about what
26:19
Speaker 1: happens in our borders, it matters to the U.S. that
26:24
Speaker 1: there aren't diseases spreading all around the world, right? Like,
26:26
Speaker 1: isn't that, like, that's one of the reasons why we
26:29
Speaker 1: prevent global pandemics is to make sure that there aren't
26:32
Speaker 1: measles spreading all across or smallpox spreading all across continents
26:36
Speaker 1: in the world, right? Right.
26:37
Speaker 2: I mean, we're a globalized world. I mean, we're just
26:41
Speaker 2: a train plane right away from any disease. And saving
26:47
Speaker 2: lives is really important to my value system, even beyond America.
26:51
Speaker 2: But if we're just thinking about America first, there is
26:55
Speaker 2: huge value in soft power around health and ensuring that
27:02
Speaker 2: other societies are healthy too. Infectious disease is violate the
27:07
Speaker 2: assumption of independence, right? What one person does directly impacts
27:10
Speaker 2: another person. And I hoped we learned that during COVID,
27:14
Speaker 2: but apparently not.
27:16
Speaker 1: Apparently we learned the wrong lesson, it seems like, or
27:18
Speaker 1: at least the people in charge did.
27:28
Speaker 3: Pod Save America is brought to you by Strawberry.me. We spend, what,
27:32
Speaker 3: about a third of our waking hours working?
27:34
Speaker 1: If you're lucky.
27:36
Speaker 5: And people feel stuck in jobs they've outgrown or never
27:38
Speaker 5: wanted in the first place.
27:40
Speaker 3: We've heard it all. What if the next move is
27:41
Speaker 3: even worse? I've already put years into this place. Who
27:44
Speaker 3: am I without this title? And that's just love it.
27:49
Speaker 5: And hey, those feelings, they are real. Your feelings are valid.
27:53
Speaker 1: But that's also why a lot of people are stuck.
27:56
Speaker 3: That's where Strawberry.me comes in. They connect you with a
27:58
Speaker 3: certified career coach who helps you go from where you
28:00
Speaker 3: are to where you actually want to be. Whether you're
28:03
Speaker 3: looking for a change, feeling stuck, facing a big decision,
28:05
Speaker 3: or just seeking professional growth.
28:07
Speaker 5: With a coach, you get clear on your goals, create
28:08
Speaker 5: a real plan, build your confidence, and they'll keep you
28:10
Speaker 5: accountable along the way. Coaches are thoroughly vetted and assessed
28:13
Speaker 5: for their qualifications and expertise and come from a wide
28:15
Speaker 5: range of backgrounds, experiences, and specializations.
28:18
Speaker 3: Don't leave your career to chance. Take action. Own your
28:21
Speaker 3: future with a coach in your corner.
28:23
Speaker 5: Head to strawberry.me slash crooked to claim your $ 50 credit
28:26
Speaker 5: and get started.
28:27
Speaker 3: That's strawberry.me slash crooked. Stop settling. Start building the career
28:31
Speaker 3: you actually want.
28:35
Speaker 1: All right, let's pivot a little bit beyond vaccines to
28:39
Speaker 1: the MAHA movement, American America Healthy Again movement broadly, and
28:42
Speaker 1: RFK Jr.
28:43
Speaker 3: 's role in it.
28:43
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, he is someone who is proudly anti-vax.
28:46
Speaker 1: He has come to great national attention and in some
28:50
Speaker 1: parts of the country, infamy for that position. But can
28:53
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about his role and how
28:55
Speaker 1: he got here?
28:57
Speaker 5: Right.
28:58
Speaker 2: So, yeah, he's always been kind of in this space
29:02
Speaker 2: of health and, you know, it's really interesting.
29:05
Speaker 1: Environmentalism.
29:06
Speaker 2: Environmental and, yeah, anti-vaccine. But he's always been on the left,
29:11
Speaker 2: which I think is fascinating. But what we've seen over
29:14
Speaker 2: the past year, and this is what's interesting, is that
29:18
Speaker 2: this movement really came out of nowhere, maha, and really fast.
29:24
Speaker 2: As you know, Dan, there was a big movement back
29:27
Speaker 2: in 2010 with Michelle Obama around healthier eating, childhood obesity, blah, blah, blah.
29:33
Speaker 2: That was completely shut down by Republicans saying we're the
29:36
Speaker 2: nanny state. You can't take away my ultra processed foods.
29:40
Speaker 2: But this movement really came out of nowhere. There's this
29:43
Speaker 2: huge groundswell of support. And for us in public health,
29:48
Speaker 2: We were like, at first, we were like, all right,
29:50
Speaker 2: here we go. Like, let's do prevention. Let's prevent chronic diseases.
29:54
Speaker 2: Let's fix the health care system. But then you start
29:57
Speaker 2: peeling off the branding and knowing RFK Jr. 's history.
30:01
Speaker 2: And you start looking at the details and solutions. And
30:05
Speaker 2: Maha really starts losing me and other public health colleagues. So, so,
30:12
Speaker 2: so yeah, I mean, RFK really, uh, created this grassroots
30:16
Speaker 2: movement and then, uh, hitched it to MAGA and that's
30:21
Speaker 2: where we are today. Yeah.
30:23
Speaker 1: I like, I understand. And this is something that would,
30:28
Speaker 1: this would be clip socially would come back to haunt me,
30:30
Speaker 1: but I sort of understand the appeal of part of
30:32
Speaker 1: the Maha movement. Like I live in the Bay area.
30:34
Speaker 1: I have, I'm a parent of young kids. I read
30:38
Speaker 1: Omnivore's Dilemma 20 years ago. I'm worried about the food system.
30:40
Speaker 1: I saw Michelle Obama plant a garden and talk about
30:42
Speaker 1: all these things and sugar and everything in our diet.
30:47
Speaker 1: My wife and I spend a lot of time thinking
30:48
Speaker 1: about what are the healthy snacks for our kids? Should
30:51
Speaker 1: we serve them food in glass as opposed to plastic
30:54
Speaker 1: and BP? We think about all of that. And because
30:57
Speaker 1: we have young kids in the area, it's something that
30:59
Speaker 1: is talked about all the time. I can't tell you
31:01
Speaker 1: how much the local first grade parents WhatsApp chain has
31:05
Speaker 1: blown up about the cinnamon rolls at free breakfast in
31:08
Speaker 1: the California public schools right now. Like people like we're
31:10
Speaker 1: very into this. And so you can, but you can
31:14
Speaker 1: see like, and because of that, right. You like, I
31:18
Speaker 1: can see how the pipeline works. Like it starts with, Oh,
31:22
Speaker 1: like here are the, you know, here are the healthy
31:24
Speaker 1: snacks for kids. Here's the recipes you should make. Here's
31:28
Speaker 1: the chemical free sunscreens or whatever else. to all of
31:31
Speaker 1: a sudden, and I'm going to get to some of
31:33
Speaker 1: these specifics, the dangers of seed oils, fluoride, all of
31:38
Speaker 1: those things. Red dyes. Red dyes, right? There's so much
31:42
Speaker 1: discussion about red dyes. Then you get to the vaccine stuff.
31:45
Speaker 1: And so this pipeline has been created. And like, as
31:50
Speaker 1: you say, not everyone in the MAHA movement is anti-vax, right?
31:53
Speaker 1: You're talking about 95% of people agree. And so you
31:55
Speaker 1: have a bunch of people who are on board with
31:57
Speaker 1: RFK Jr., And this whole movement, this idea for all
32:01
Speaker 1: the stuff that gets up to Vax. Maybe they're going
32:03
Speaker 1: to get moved to an anti-Vax, but they should start
32:05
Speaker 1: asking questions around it. But it's the other stuff. And
32:08
Speaker 1: I think we as people, like political positions like myself,
32:12
Speaker 1: can get into a dangerous place when you dismiss all
32:15
Speaker 1: the other concerns. Not the solutions offered by Maha, but
32:18
Speaker 1: the concerns as a bunch of anti-Vax cranks. But I
32:22
Speaker 1: want to go through some of the specifics because I
32:25
Speaker 1: have an actual scientist with me today on some of
32:27
Speaker 1: these things they're concerned about. And I want to start
32:30
Speaker 1: with seed oils. Okay. Which is like, I can't tell
32:33
Speaker 1: you how much seed oil content I see on Instagram
32:36
Speaker 1: and TikTok and the dangers of it. What does the
32:38
Speaker 1: science say about whether seed oils are bad for you
32:42
Speaker 1: or worse for you than other oils?
32:45
Speaker 2: Right. So seed oils are, just to back up.
32:49
Speaker 1: A little, they are- Yeah, describe seed oils. Because most
32:52
Speaker 1: people say the word seed oil, don't know what it means,
32:54
Speaker 1: but yes.
32:54
Speaker 3: Yeah.
32:55
Speaker 2: They're extracted from, I mean, the seeds of plants, like
32:58
Speaker 2: soybeans and canola and corn and sunflower and grape seeds.
33:03
Speaker 2: And this is in contrast to oils like olive or
33:07
Speaker 2: avocado oil that are extracted from fruits. But you're right.
33:10
Speaker 2: I mean, there's been this recent- fear around seed oils.
33:16
Speaker 2: And the reality is that they are part of a
33:20
Speaker 2: healthy diet. I mean, seed oils are particularly high in
33:24
Speaker 2: this thing called polyunsaturated fats, which are important for heart
33:29
Speaker 2: health and cell function and metabolism and immune regulation. And
33:33
Speaker 2: our bodies can't make it on its own. We have
33:36
Speaker 2: to get it from food. And seed oils are a
33:39
Speaker 2: really important part of that. We've had huge studies showing
33:43
Speaker 2: the importance on heart health, for example. But you're right.
33:47
Speaker 2: There's been a recent backlash. Critics have called seed oils
33:51
Speaker 2: toxic or poisonous and even blamed them on the rise
33:56
Speaker 2: of chronic disease we've seen in the United States. And
33:59
Speaker 2: it's really based on conflicting evidence. correlation doesn't equal causation,
34:08
Speaker 2: some just plain out rumors. Also, there's a lot of
34:12
Speaker 2: money in this that I don't think we can ignore, right?
34:15
Speaker 2: The wellness market profits off of fear. It's valued of over,
34:21
Speaker 2: I think, $ 6 trillion. And so people who demonize seed oils,
34:26
Speaker 2: for example, are also selling products that claim to reverse
34:30
Speaker 2: the damage or detox or seed oil alternatives or beef towel.
34:36
Speaker 2: And so a lot of this, I think, and the
34:40
Speaker 2: theme around all of these topics, whether it's seed oils
34:43
Speaker 2: or red dyes or fluoride, is that our information landscape
34:48
Speaker 2: has just dramatically changed. It's really confusing on social media.
34:54
Speaker 2: And we've also unleashed this curiosity-driven class, which I love.
34:58
Speaker 2: People are asking really tough questions. It just means that
35:00
Speaker 2: we have to rise to that occasion.
35:02
Speaker 1: All right, so let's talk food dyes. This is the
35:05
Speaker 1: one you see all the time. The argument is, while
35:08
Speaker 1: there haven't been studies, there have been these. And I
35:11
Speaker 1: saw the interview with the head of the FDA and
35:13
Speaker 1: Megyn Kelly recently, where he, Megyn Kelly, was very concerned
35:16
Speaker 1: that she was going to make a birthday cake for
35:18
Speaker 1: her daughter. And she looked at the icing, and it
35:21
Speaker 1: had all these red dyes in it. And then the
35:22
Speaker 1: FDA- head went on this long thing about the dangers
35:25
Speaker 1: of dyes and that although there weren't studies on it
35:28
Speaker 1: per se, there's a lot of anecdotal evidence of parents
35:29
Speaker 1: who took their kids off dyes. You hear all the time, uh,
35:33
Speaker 1: the dyes we use in America are banned in Europe.
35:36
Speaker 1: If you buy Fruit Loops here and Fruit Loops in Canada,
35:39
Speaker 1: they look very different because of the dyes. It's like,
35:42
Speaker 1: what is, what is the reality about the dyes we
35:44
Speaker 1: use compared to the other countries? And what are the
35:46
Speaker 1: risks of dyes at all? Because I mean, they're being
35:48
Speaker 1: banned in states across the country, even California, even, um,
35:51
Speaker 1: Here in California, Governor Newsom signed a bill that did
35:55
Speaker 1: it in school lunches, I believe. But what's the reality here?
36:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, first of all, the reality is, contrary to popular belief,
36:04
Speaker 2: a lot of these dyes are allowed in Europe. They
36:07
Speaker 2: are not banned in Europe.
36:07
Speaker 1: They just have different names, right?
36:09
Speaker 2: They have different names. I'm like, guys, come on, let's
36:11
Speaker 2: do this. Let's start– anyways, so they have different names.
36:15
Speaker 2: So first of all, yeah, it's not banned in Europe.
36:18
Speaker 2: There has been some, like, rat studies that have looked
36:23
Speaker 2: at red dyes. When we look at it in human studies,
36:27
Speaker 2: at the dose, we usually get it. There's certainly– there
36:31
Speaker 2: has no harm around it. You know, with substances, dose
36:37
Speaker 2: is the toxin. I mean, water can be toxic if
36:40
Speaker 2: we have enough of it. And– And, you know, I
36:43
Speaker 2: think fine. If you want to take out red dye
36:46
Speaker 2: is fine. But like candy is also still candy at
36:48
Speaker 2: the end of the day. And I also think that
36:51
Speaker 2: with this red dye discussion and honestly a lot with Maha,
36:55
Speaker 2: with this individualistic approach, it fails to look at the
37:00
Speaker 2: tradeoffs at a population level. And it'll be interesting to
37:05
Speaker 2: see what those tradeoffs are for red dyes. But natural
37:09
Speaker 2: colors are more expensive to make. they're less consistent, and
37:13
Speaker 2: they have less shelf life, which means higher food costs
37:17
Speaker 2: and potentially more food waste. And so there's a trade-off
37:21
Speaker 2: for people that can't afford these very expensive foods. And
37:25
Speaker 2: we are really losing, what is the saying, the forest
37:31
Speaker 2: for the trees?
37:31
Speaker 1: Forest for the trees, yeah.
37:32
Speaker 2: Right, because there are huge changes that need to be
37:36
Speaker 2: made to our food systems. Red dye is like the small, it's,
37:42
Speaker 2: It's like going to be turning our wheels to fix
37:44
Speaker 2: the chronic health problems. We're not tackling these root causes,
37:48
Speaker 2: which is frustrating to see.
37:51
Speaker 1: So there would probably be no health downside to switching
37:56
Speaker 1: to beet juice for red dye, where I think that's
37:58
Speaker 1: the natural alternative. But the argument against would be, I guess,
38:02
Speaker 1: just want to kind of just drill down this. One,
38:04
Speaker 1: food costs would go up. So that's one of the
38:07
Speaker 1: reasons why we have these dyes and these chemicals. They
38:09
Speaker 1: would spoil more. And ultimately the big thing is we're
38:12
Speaker 1: not focused on the things like we should be getting
38:15
Speaker 1: kids to eat less candy period, not less candy with
38:17
Speaker 1: dye is sort of the way you'd say it.
38:19
Speaker 3: Right.
38:19
Speaker 2: And like food deserts and food insecurity and industry influence
38:25
Speaker 2: and like all of these big things that really impact, um, behavior. Uh, and,
38:32
Speaker 2: and I don't think this is it. I think the
38:34
Speaker 2: other interesting thing is, yeah, you're right with shelf life
38:37
Speaker 2: and making it more expensive. Also, it's important to know
38:40
Speaker 2: some people are allergic to beets, right? So some of
38:43
Speaker 2: these natural colors may pose an individual risk with food
38:46
Speaker 2: allergies too. So there's important implications, but we need to
38:51
Speaker 2: step back if we're really going to move this needle
38:54
Speaker 2: in the United States for health.
38:57
Speaker 1: So let's do fluoride now. The state of Utah has
38:59
Speaker 1: now banned adding fluoride to public drinking water. I mean,
39:02
Speaker 1: really for most of my life, have you ever heard
39:05
Speaker 1: anyone talking about fluoride in the water, it was like
39:07
Speaker 1: a real sign that they were a kook, right? Like
39:09
Speaker 1: you would cross the street if someone was to the
39:11
Speaker 1: other side of the street if they're talking about fluoride.
39:13
Speaker 1: And now it's becoming public policy. What is the truth here,
39:16
Speaker 1: especially given how much fluoride we get in our toothpaste
39:19
Speaker 1: and all of that?
39:20
Speaker 3: Yeah.
39:20
Speaker 2: So fluoride is really important for our teeth. This is
39:24
Speaker 2: why toothpaste contains fluoride, why dentists apply it to us directly.
39:28
Speaker 2: I think the question that's being debated right now is
39:31
Speaker 2: whether we should add it to our public water supplies.
39:36
Speaker 2: We started adding fluoride in the mid-1900s and it really
39:42
Speaker 2: helped decrease cavities, like an incredible amount. I think that
39:46
Speaker 2: once fluoride you know, we've started introducing fluoride in toothpaste,
39:50
Speaker 2: the benefit is definitely more modest. Like, let's be honest
39:54
Speaker 2: with that, right? Like it's especially, well, I'll get to
39:58
Speaker 2: that in a little, but it's definitely more modest, but
40:00
Speaker 2: there still shows clear improvement. For example, we've had case studies,
40:05
Speaker 2: like in Calgary, they banned fluoride in just five years.
40:09
Speaker 2: Cavities increased almost twofold. And use of antibiotics increased eightfold
40:16
Speaker 2: due to bacteria in teeth. And they ended up putting
40:18
Speaker 2: it back in fluoride in 2021. So we still see
40:21
Speaker 2: it's important. But what's even more important is that, and
40:25
Speaker 2: this is where public health comes in, is that the
40:28
Speaker 2: public water system reaches everyone equally. And so fluoridation mitigates
40:32
Speaker 2: the impact of disparities and access to dental care in
40:36
Speaker 2: the United States. Low-income families struggle to, one, find dentists
40:41
Speaker 2: that take their insurance like Medicaid.
40:43
Speaker 1: If they have insurance at all, right?
40:45
Speaker 2: If they have insurance at all. There's definitely dentist deserts, right?
40:50
Speaker 2: So access is an issue. And, you know, going beyond cavities,
40:54
Speaker 2: poor dentition can be a source of stigma for our
40:58
Speaker 2: kids in schools. And, you know, I think that this
41:01
Speaker 2: really highlights what public health is, is that it's an
41:04
Speaker 2: invisible– intervention. You don't really think about it much. It's
41:08
Speaker 2: incredibly safe at the doses we receive, and it benefits
41:13
Speaker 2: the most vulnerable. And so when we remove fluoride, you know,
41:18
Speaker 2: me and San Diego and my kids are going to
41:22
Speaker 2: be just fine. We go to the dentist. We can
41:24
Speaker 2: afford toothpaste. But what I'm very concerned about is the
41:29
Speaker 2: health disparities gap is just going to increase and increase.
41:32
Speaker 2: And that has major implications for Americans.
41:36
Speaker 1: Would you say in all the concerns we have about
41:38
Speaker 1: our water in this country, fluoride is low on the list, right?
41:42
Speaker 1: Like between pollution and chemicals. It's so low on the list.
41:44
Speaker 1: This is sort of the point here, right? Which is
41:45
Speaker 1: like what we're bringing– this is what I think one
41:49
Speaker 1: of the dangers of the Maha movement because it's taking
41:52
Speaker 1: legitimate concerns about health, a broken food system, trying to
41:57
Speaker 1: feed a family on a limited budget or what they're
42:01
Speaker 1: fed at school, right? Like you want to do that,
42:03
Speaker 1: but then the answers are not answering the real problems
42:07
Speaker 1: and they're kind of distracting from the real things that
42:10
Speaker 1: we should be addressing, right?
42:11
Speaker 2: It's totally true. And that's what's so confusing with this
42:14
Speaker 2: Maha movement. I mean, Dana, you mentioned you're totally gain
42:18
Speaker 2: for some of these things and I am too, but
42:21
Speaker 2: it's mixing really reasonable statements with one outright falsehoods. but
42:26
Speaker 2: also too, it's like not the solution which will keep
42:30
Speaker 2: our wheels spinning, right? There are distractions or misdiagnoses and
42:35
Speaker 2: we don't have time, right? Like our health isn't great
42:38
Speaker 2: in the United States, right? We need to do things
42:41
Speaker 2: better and it's hard to watch.
42:43
Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Caitlyn Gentilina after this break,
42:46
Speaker 1: but first some housekeeping. If you like Positive America, you'll
42:49
Speaker 1: love my newsletter, The Message Box, which dives deep into
42:51
Speaker 1: what's happening in our politics. how Democrats can return to power,
42:54
Speaker 1: and has actionable ideas on how each and every one
42:56
Speaker 1: of us can do our part to defeat MAGA. In
42:59
Speaker 1: my latest post out this morning, I wrote about the
43:01
Speaker 1: lessons that every Democrat running up and down the ballot
43:04
Speaker 1: in districts as blue as New York City and red
43:06
Speaker 1: as West Virginia can learn from Zoran Mondani's incredible victory
43:10
Speaker 1: in New York City. If you want to follow along
43:12
Speaker 1: and join the conversation, head to the incredibly cringeworthy, incredibly
43:15
Speaker 1: embarrassing website, crooked.com slash yeswedan to unlock a 30-day free
43:19
Speaker 1: trial of MessageBox for Pod Save America listeners. The Supreme
43:23
Speaker 1: Court's conservative supermajority just paved the way for red states
43:26
Speaker 1: to defund Planned Parenthood. Their decision undermines access to abortions,
43:29
Speaker 1: cancer screenings, and all reproductive health care for millions and
43:32
Speaker 1: millions of people on Medicaid across the country. Our friends
43:35
Speaker 1: at Vote Save America have a fund to support impacted
43:37
Speaker 1: Planned Parenthoods and their patients. Go to votesaveamerica.com slash support
43:41
Speaker 1: to make a donation right now. Paid for by Vote
43:43
Speaker 1: Save America. You can learn more at votesaveamerica.com. This ad
43:46
Speaker 1: has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee.
43:58
Speaker 3: Pod Save America is brought to you by SimpliSafe. As
44:00
Speaker 3: we work toward a better future, it's important to protect
44:02
Speaker 3: what's ours today. That's why we trust SimpliSafe. Their proactive
44:05
Speaker 3: security system doesn't just react to crime, it prevents it.
44:08
Speaker 3: With their highly advanced cameras and live monitoring agents, SimpliSafe
44:11
Speaker 3: is leading the way in home security, helping millions of
44:14
Speaker 3: Americans stay safe before trouble even arrives. John Lovett himself
44:18
Speaker 3: has set up a SimpliSafe and he's lived to tell
44:22
Speaker 3: the tale.
44:22
Speaker 5: It's really easy to do. You customize it for your space.
44:25
Speaker 5: It comes, you can set it up very, very quickly.
44:27
Speaker 5: They make it super easy. Then once it's set up,
44:29
Speaker 5: completely reliable, and the customer support is great. The app
44:33
Speaker 5: is great. Gives you peace of mind. Highly recommend it.
44:35
Speaker 3: Most security systems only take action after someone breaks in.
44:37
Speaker 3: That's too late. SimpliSafe's new ActiveGuard outdoor protection helps stop
44:40
Speaker 3: break-ins before they happen. If someone's lurking, agents talk to
44:43
Speaker 3: them in real time, turn on spotlights, and can call
44:45
Speaker 3: the police. Proactively deterring crime before it starts. No contracts,
44:48
Speaker 3: no hidden fees. It's named the best home security system
44:50
Speaker 3: of 2025 by CNET. 4 million plus Americans trust SimpliSafe.
44:53
Speaker 3: It's ranked number one customer service by Newsweek and USA Today.
44:57
Speaker 3: Monitoring plans start around a dollar a day, 60-day money-back guarantee.
45:01
Speaker 3: Visit simplisafe.com slash crooked to claim 50% off a new
45:04
Speaker 3: system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first
45:06
Speaker 3: month free. That's simplisafe.com slash crooked. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.
45:15
Speaker 1: So you've done something that not a lot of people do,
45:17
Speaker 1: which is you've actually engaged with members of the Maha movement,
45:19
Speaker 1: not just by seeing their content on Instagram. You've actually
45:22
Speaker 1: met with them. Can you talk a little about how
45:24
Speaker 1: those conversations came to be and what you learned from them?
45:28
Speaker 2: I did. I was invited. A good friend, Brenda Akari,
45:34
Speaker 2: was the executive producer for Jon Stewart, but also co-hosts
45:37
Speaker 2: a podcast, Why Should I Trust You? And invited a
45:40
Speaker 2: couple of us in public health to meet with Maha grassroots.
45:43
Speaker 2: And I'll be honest, like, At first, I was like,
45:46
Speaker 2: hell no. They are in the middle of this destruction
45:50
Speaker 2: that I'm seeing with public health. No way. But I
45:53
Speaker 2: ended up going. I went in after a lot of
45:57
Speaker 2: wrestling with a goal of about 75% listening and 25%
46:01
Speaker 2: speaking my truth. And we've met a couple times since
46:06
Speaker 2: that first time, been doing texts. And I'll be honest,
46:10
Speaker 2: that first conversation was one of the most raw conversations
46:14
Speaker 2: honest and important conversation I think I've ever had in
46:18
Speaker 2: my professional career. I learned a lot about the Maha movement,
46:23
Speaker 2: what drives them to do this, how they view life.
46:28
Speaker 2: I was able to tell my truths as well, like
46:31
Speaker 2: slashing Medicaid's not going to help make America healthy again.
46:35
Speaker 2: And these have turned over time into relationships and where
46:39
Speaker 2: we can learn from each other. We can agree to disagree.
46:43
Speaker 2: But also what I've also seen is that we can
46:46
Speaker 2: partner on things that I agree with, that we have
46:49
Speaker 2: common ground. And it's been a fascinating journey. I'll say that.
46:57
Speaker 1: What did you learn about how someone– about how they
47:01
Speaker 1: ended up in this place? Like what are the values
47:03
Speaker 1: that drive them there?
47:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we were talking about this earlier, but
47:08
Speaker 2: Maha is not a monolith, right? It's a very eclectic
47:12
Speaker 2: group of people. You have Democrats, you have Republicans, you
47:15
Speaker 2: have independents, you have anti-vaxxers, you have pro-vaxxers. I mean,
47:20
Speaker 2: it's a huge group. But what I learned was a
47:25
Speaker 2: common theme is that everyone in this room has had
47:30
Speaker 2: a story of heartbreak, betrayal, and mistrust from the health system.
47:35
Speaker 2: whether it was a mom caring for an adult with
47:38
Speaker 2: autism or a family ripped apart from the opioid epidemic
47:43
Speaker 2: or a small business owner that had to survive pandemic shutdowns,
47:48
Speaker 2: they were lived experiences, right? They're painful, they're messy, they're
47:52
Speaker 2: very human. And what matters the most to them is
47:56
Speaker 2: that these systems that were built to protect people didn't
47:59
Speaker 2: show up for them when they needed it. And so
48:01
Speaker 2: they are going to other sources and other voices that
48:06
Speaker 2: see that and respond to that. The other really interesting
48:12
Speaker 2: thing I learned, and I was genuinely surprised about this,
48:15
Speaker 2: was that some of the members acknowledged that hitching their
48:19
Speaker 2: movement to the broader MAGA movement was a risky bet
48:23
Speaker 2: and actually very much grappling with those consequences right now, right?
48:27
Speaker 2: Because there are cuts to research on diabetes or food
48:31
Speaker 2: access or maternal health. And it's really hurting their ability
48:35
Speaker 2: to make progress. And so while they're all very supportive
48:40
Speaker 2: of Kennedy's vision, I think some believe that blind allegiance
48:44
Speaker 2: to MAGA is hindering their development of solutions. And I say, yes,
48:49
Speaker 2: it is. So yeah, I've learned a lot. And these
48:54
Speaker 2: discussions have been incredible.
48:57
Speaker 1: That was one of the things that I've been very
48:59
Speaker 1: curious about. Because you can look– if you take everything
49:02
Speaker 1: that these folks believe in good faith, right? And you
49:05
Speaker 1: can see like RFK Jr. saying what they want to
49:08
Speaker 1: hear on food dyes and processed foods. And then if
49:12
Speaker 1: you are anti-vax, obviously he's doing exactly what you want,
49:14
Speaker 1: much to the detriment of the country and the world.
49:16
Speaker 1: But then everything outside of HHS is doing the opposite
49:21
Speaker 1: of what Maha wants, right? Like we're talking about seed oils.
49:23
Speaker 1: I've got to stop seed oils. The top lobbyist for
49:27
Speaker 1: the Seed Oil Association has a senior role at the
49:29
Speaker 1: Department of Ag. Everyone is so worried about glyphosates, right?
49:33
Speaker 1: The herbicide used in Roundup. And then in getting that
49:36
Speaker 1: out of our food and it shows up in our
49:38
Speaker 1: fruit and vegetables, whatever else, And you have the EPA
49:42
Speaker 1: cutting the regulations that would govern and prevent these chemicals
49:45
Speaker 1: from getting in our food and water. I mean, all
49:47
Speaker 1: the regulations that Obama and Biden put in about clean
49:50
Speaker 1: air and clean water are getting gutted. And then if
49:52
Speaker 1: you care just like healthy food, they've gutted the program.
49:56
Speaker 1: They've ended the program that helps schools buy food from
49:58
Speaker 1: local farms.
50:00
Speaker 2: Farmers from USDA.
50:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've just been very curious if they're like
50:04
Speaker 1: how aware they are of that tension and whether it
50:06
Speaker 1: makes them, you know, I'm glad to know you see
50:08
Speaker 1: that there are some questions, but like how aware are
50:11
Speaker 1: they of that stuff? And I guess the other question
50:13
Speaker 1: is like maybe the leaders are aware, but I'm assuming
50:15
Speaker 1: maybe the members of the movement, not the ones who
50:18
Speaker 1: are like showing up at meetings, but who now identify
50:21
Speaker 1: in Maha and have these concerns are even aware of
50:23
Speaker 1: that stuff.
50:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that they're definitely aware,
50:28
Speaker 2: I will say very aware of Medicaid cuts. They're very
50:32
Speaker 2: concerned about that as they should be. very aware of
50:35
Speaker 2: SNAP benefits being cut for 2 million kids that rely
50:39
Speaker 2: on this for food. And so, you know, I think
50:42
Speaker 2: that they are aware of some of that. They're not aware,
50:44
Speaker 2: I'll be honest, about other things that I've tried to
50:46
Speaker 2: keep them up to date on, like cutting clinical trials
50:49
Speaker 2: for diabetes or cancer research. Because like we said at
50:53
Speaker 2: the top of the hour, there's just so much to
50:55
Speaker 2: pay attention to. I think the ultimate question they come
50:59
Speaker 2: to answer is, are we making more progress within MAGA
51:04
Speaker 2: than when we wouldn't have been through there? And what
51:06
Speaker 2: their conclusion is, is yes, is that even though we've
51:09
Speaker 2: hitched our wagon to this, we're still doing some important
51:13
Speaker 2: work and that was better than before. And I think
51:16
Speaker 2: that they hang their hat on that.
51:19
Speaker 1: You brought up Michelle Obama, her healthy food initiatives when
51:24
Speaker 1: she was first lady and I worked at the White House.
51:26
Speaker 1: And when I put on my quasi-retired political strategist hat
51:30
Speaker 1: and I look at this and I'm like, these are,
51:32
Speaker 1: the people who have these concerns are people who used
51:36
Speaker 1: to be Democratic voters, right? I'm not getting into the
51:39
Speaker 1: core anti-vaxxers, even though a lot of people were on
51:41
Speaker 1: the left pre-COVID, but the people who really are worried
51:44
Speaker 1: about broken food system, worried about clean air and clean water,
51:46
Speaker 1: how you feed your healthy kids. And I always think
51:49
Speaker 1: about Vani Hari, who for people who don't know is
51:52
Speaker 1: someone known as Food Babe, who is the probably the
51:55
Speaker 1: most influential food influencer. She's become like a leader in
51:58
Speaker 1: the Maha movement. She sat behind RFK Jr. during his
52:02
Speaker 1: confirmation hearings. She was an Obama delegate in 2012. Oh,
52:06
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. And like at some point, yes,
52:09
Speaker 1: and had volunteered on the campaign in 08, like a
52:12
Speaker 1: true blue Democrat. And she was doing food influencing back then.
52:15
Speaker 1: She started Food Babe in 2011. And like at some point,
52:20
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party lost these people? Do you have any
52:24
Speaker 1: sense or theories about how that happened or how we
52:26
Speaker 1: could communicate with them better?
52:27
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that the larger Democratic Party, now
52:31
Speaker 2: we'll get into just politics, has lost the thread and
52:39
Speaker 2: is not responsive to the needs on the ground. I
52:42
Speaker 2: think a lot of what Democrats in public health all
52:45
Speaker 2: just say, hear, and sound like is defending the status quo.
52:49
Speaker 2: And people aren't the status quo isn't good, right? We're
52:53
Speaker 2: very sick. We have these profit-led health systems and people
53:00
Speaker 2: are done with it. And so I do hope that
53:04
Speaker 2: people see this groundswell, that they listen to these concerns
53:08
Speaker 2: and provide alternatives to RFK Jr. I'll say, I think,
53:13
Speaker 2: you know, through these discussions with Maha, One of the
53:16
Speaker 2: most hopeful things is I've seen a ton of opportunity,
53:20
Speaker 2: that there's these huge fractures between MAHA and MAGA. Well,
53:24
Speaker 2: guess who else cares about making Americans healthy? It's public health.
53:28
Speaker 2: It's Democrats. And so what is the strategy for that?
53:32
Speaker 2: I mean, one example is I'm surprised no political party
53:38
Speaker 2: has taken up health care costs. And I think that's
53:42
Speaker 2: a huge opportunity right now to gain a groundswell, to
53:47
Speaker 2: create a movement, and to push us forward to a
53:51
Speaker 2: better healthcare system. So I guess that. I mean, I
53:56
Speaker 2: think that people move because people weren't being listened to.
53:59
Speaker 1: Or being spoken to, I think, in this case.
54:03
Speaker 2: Spoken to or spoken with, right?
54:05
Speaker 1: Like engaged.
54:05
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.
54:06
Speaker 1: It is like RFK Jr., long before he was running
54:11
Speaker 1: for president and then becoming ancient secretary, was like omnipresent
54:15
Speaker 1: in the wellness space, right? He's talking to Mark Hyman.
54:19
Speaker 1: He's on all the podcasts. He's talking to Vani Hari.
54:22
Speaker 1: He's doing all these things. And there was no democratic
54:26
Speaker 1: voice there. From 2008 to 2012, you had Michelle Obama.
54:29
Speaker 1: She was doing those things. It was easier in that
54:33
Speaker 1: information ecosystem that if the first lady of the United
54:35
Speaker 1: States was talking about these things that everyone in the
54:37
Speaker 1: world would hear about it because it worked. But now
54:42
Speaker 1: we're all in these information bubbles and these interests a lot.
54:48
Speaker 1: The way I was thinking about this from a communication
54:49
Speaker 1: perspective is we now, because of the way Instagram and
54:53
Speaker 1: TikTok and YouTube work, the world's on an interest graph.
54:55
Speaker 1: It's what you're interested in is going to send you
54:57
Speaker 1: down a path. And so the people who are opting
54:59
Speaker 1: into wellness and health and that sort of stuff are
55:04
Speaker 1: not people that we have been, we have not been going,
55:06
Speaker 1: Democrats have not been going into those spaces to speak
55:08
Speaker 1: to those people. And so, you know, conspiracy theorists love
55:12
Speaker 1: a vacuum, right?
55:13
Speaker 2: And there is a vacuum. I mean, there's a clear vacuum.
55:16
Speaker 2: And you're right. I think that largely Democrats have this
55:20
Speaker 2: top-down approach to communication where information flows linearly. We are
55:25
Speaker 2: the experts in the ivory towers, blah, blah, blah. What
55:28
Speaker 2: Republicans do and Maha does, work incredibly well is this
55:33
Speaker 2: bottom-up approach, is you talk to people, you activate networks,
55:37
Speaker 2: you meet their needs, and people love that. And I
55:42
Speaker 2: love that. I don't blame them for that, but let's
55:45
Speaker 2: do it in an evidence-based way where we really need
55:48
Speaker 2: to step up.
55:50
Speaker 1: Have you thought about, from a public health perspective, like
55:54
Speaker 1: I come at it from a political persuasion perspective, how
55:56
Speaker 1: do we get these voters back? How do we persuade
55:58
Speaker 1: them about what what Trump and RFK Jr. are doing
56:01
Speaker 1: is wrong. But ultimately, we have to communicate. It's the
56:05
Speaker 1: role of the job of public health to communicate people
56:07
Speaker 1: how to keep their family safe, what vaccines to take.
56:09
Speaker 1: Have you thought about if the Maha movement taught you
56:12
Speaker 1: anything about how the public health world should communicate differently
56:16
Speaker 1: with the public?
56:18
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
56:19
Speaker 3: Yeah.
56:19
Speaker 2: I mean, I've been on this adventure the past five
56:22
Speaker 2: years just doing my newsletter. I've learned a ton about this.
56:26
Speaker 2: But you're right. There's a value of nuance, right? Never
56:31
Speaker 2: underestimate the public. They want to know what mRNA is,
56:36
Speaker 2: what red dyes are, and if they're safe. I think
56:38
Speaker 2: there's huge power in trusted messengers. So how do we
56:42
Speaker 2: start engaging physicians and librarians and whoever that people get
56:48
Speaker 2: their information and trust also? There's this importance of meeting
56:52
Speaker 2: people where they're at. And the thing I think we're
56:56
Speaker 2: missing the most is creativity needed to develop these two-way streets,
57:01
Speaker 2: like with Maha Group. In these Maha discussions, after I
57:05
Speaker 2: was like, hey, can you guys help me just look
57:08
Speaker 2: over my FAQs around routine vaccinations? And they sent me
57:13
Speaker 2: back this incredible feedback. And it was. And even better,
57:18
Speaker 2: I was like, I integrated their feedback, and they wanted
57:21
Speaker 2: an added question answered. And I just sent it back saying,
57:24
Speaker 2: so thank you so much for doing these routine vaccination questions.
57:28
Speaker 2: And they're like, no problem. We sent this out into
57:31
Speaker 2: the entire Maha network. And so like there's this value
57:35
Speaker 2: of engagement and co-developing and the idea that curiosity can
57:41
Speaker 2: be a bridge. And I hope that public– not hope.
57:48
Speaker 2: Public health needs to learn that as quickly as possible.
57:51
Speaker 2: The Democratic Party needs to learn that as quickly as possible.
57:55
Speaker 2: Or there's going to continue to be a void as
57:58
Speaker 2: well as that's just how communities thrive. And we need
58:05
Speaker 2: to empower individuals at this moment.
58:08
Speaker 1: Do you think this group would be open to talking
58:10
Speaker 1: with someone like a Democrat, like, I don't know, Cory Booker,
58:12
Speaker 1: who's a vegan and has talked a lot about our
58:14
Speaker 1: broken food system in a lot of ways, would think
58:16
Speaker 1: they would want to engage with someone like that?
58:19
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think that what I have heard
58:22
Speaker 2: them say, to me at least, is everyone treats Maha
58:26
Speaker 2: like they're radioactive. And so I think that there's really opportunity.
58:30
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll be honest, they're kind of radioactive in
58:33
Speaker 2: some things, but there's other things that it's really worth
58:35
Speaker 2: engaging on. And we've seen that. I mean, they've started
58:40
Speaker 2: talking to other public health leaders around Medicaid. We're partnering
58:45
Speaker 2: with um, with nutrition. We're partnering with, um, toxic water. Uh,
58:51
Speaker 2: and so it's happening. I think it just matters of everyone,
58:54
Speaker 2: you know, take a deep breath. Like let's, let's try
58:57
Speaker 2: to find that common ground and, and work from there.
59:01
Speaker 1: Last question for you. If one of the, like, I'm like,
59:04
Speaker 1: we're having this conversation because I'm sort of obsessed with
59:07
Speaker 1: the wellness to Mahatma Maga pipeline, how we get these
59:10
Speaker 1: people back, the Vonnie Hari Obama delegate to RFK Jr.
59:13
Speaker 1: surrogate thing haunts me in my brain. How did we
59:16
Speaker 1: lose that person? We should not be losing Obama delegates
59:19
Speaker 1: to become RFK Jr.
59:21
Speaker 3: Acolytes.
59:23
Speaker 1: But one of the things is that I would hope
59:25
Speaker 1: that as Democrats move forward, we would come up with
59:28
Speaker 1: a our version of a Maha agenda, like what we
59:31
Speaker 1: would go to these people, go to just, it's not
59:34
Speaker 1: just the people who self-id as Maha, but like just
59:37
Speaker 1: people who have legitimate concerns about our food system, chronic
59:40
Speaker 1: disease in this country, worry about their parents, their kids,
59:43
Speaker 1: et cetera. In addition to healthcare costs, are there other
59:46
Speaker 1: things you think that Democrats should be talking about that
59:49
Speaker 1: would be persuasive, but also more effective than these sort
59:52
Speaker 1: of obsessions with seed oils and red dyes and those
59:54
Speaker 1: sorts of things?
59:56
Speaker 2: We need to provide an alternative path. I mean, it's
59:58
Speaker 2: that simple. I mean, what is our plan, right? Our
1:00:01
Speaker 2: plan is not to go back to 2024, 2019. Like,
1:00:05
Speaker 2: what do we want to see in the world? What
1:00:08
Speaker 2: is our solutions to this fucked up healthcare system? I've
1:00:12
Speaker 2: been thinking about this a lot. In fact, I don't
1:00:14
Speaker 2: know if I should admit this, but like I started
1:00:16
Speaker 2: writing like a project 2029 for health. Because I'm like,
1:00:20
Speaker 2: someone just needs to start, you know, part of this,
1:00:23
Speaker 2: you know, the past six months have been defense. And
1:00:26
Speaker 2: I'll be honest, like that defense is really important, especially
1:00:30
Speaker 2: in public health when it's getting destructed. But also, also,
1:00:34
Speaker 2: you need an offense of like, where do we want
1:00:37
Speaker 2: to go? What is valuable? What are Americans saying? And
1:00:41
Speaker 2: meet them where they're at. And so that's just not
1:00:44
Speaker 2: something I've seen. And it's been quite depressing, but also
1:00:49
Speaker 2: it tells me why we lose people, right? We lost
1:00:55
Speaker 2: people to RFK Jr. And we need to do a
1:00:58
Speaker 2: whole lot of work to plan ahead and try to
1:01:04
Speaker 2: lead down a different path that we see matches our
1:01:08
Speaker 2: value systems.
1:01:10
Speaker 1: Well, Caitlin, thank you so much for this conversation. We
1:01:12
Speaker 1: started off quite scary and alarming. I think we've ended
1:01:14
Speaker 1: in a relatively hopeful place. As you put the finishing
1:01:17
Speaker 1: touches on your Project 2029 Healthy America agenda, let's talk
1:01:21
Speaker 1: again because I'm very fascinated in this and this is
1:01:24
Speaker 1: uh this has been really a great conversation.
1:01:26
Speaker 2: Absolutely thanks so much for having me dan.
1:01:33
Speaker 1: That's our show for today tommy love will be back
1:01:35
Speaker 1: with a brand new show in your feed on tuesday morning.
1:01:39
Speaker 3: If you want to listen to pod save america ad
1:01:41
Speaker 3: free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive
1:01:43
Speaker 3: podcasts consider joining our friends of the pod community at cricket.com
1:01:47
Speaker 3: slash friends or subscribe on apple podcasts directly from the
1:01:51
Speaker 3: pod save america feed Also, please consider leaving us a
1:01:54
Speaker 3: review to help boost this episode and everything we do
1:01:56
Speaker 3: here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.
1:02:00
Speaker 3: Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich-Frank, and Saul Rubin.
1:02:03
Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our
1:02:06
Speaker 3: senior producer. Reid Cherlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill
1:02:10
Speaker 3: is our head of news and politics. The show is
1:02:12
Speaker 3: mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our
1:02:15
Speaker 3: sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.
1:02:19
Speaker 3: Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is
1:02:22
Speaker 3: our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn,
1:02:25
Speaker 3: Haley Jones, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelleviv, David Tolles,
1:02:29
Speaker 3: and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with
1:02:32
Speaker 3: the Writers Guild of America East.