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anxious kids & overprotective parents · From 9 to Mom

• Catie: Welcome back to From Nine of Mom. Danielle: Where we discuss balancing the nine to five hustle with the beautiful chaos that we call motherhood. And today we are with Dr. Ann Josephson, who is a psychologist and the founder of Uptown Psychology. She has practices in New York and Florida. She's a former special ed teacher and school psychologist that is now specializing in high-achieving anxious kids and just as much the parents who are raising them. I think this is such an incredible topic. Not only that, she's a mom of two herself. She splits her time between New York and Florida while running her practice, which means she's living out the same juggling act she's talking to her clients about. and today we're talking anxiety, overprotective parenting, burnout, uncertainty, and really how we're supposed to know when to step in and when to back off, which please, please help us mamas out. So Anne Josephson: Ha ha Danielle: and thank you so much for being with us today. Anne Josephson: Yeah, thank you guys so much for having me. It's great to talk to people who, as you said, are experiencing the same struggles that I go through on a daily basis. Catie: Well, we're expecting all the answers. the secret the Danielle: Ha ha Anne Josephson: goodness. Catie: secrets that are out there that we clearly don't know about. But you are a mom of two. Give us the breakdown. How old are the kids? What's causing chaos in your house right now? Anne Josephson: Yeah, so I have a four and a half year old and a two and a half year old. And I think currently we are, you know, ending camp, getting ready to start the school year. Of course, there's always that like three weeks, you know, in New York difference between end of camp and starting school year. So it's like filling out all the forms, making sure everyone has what they need, the sneakers that fit, all the things, potty training next week. I know everyone's envious. Danielle: Mm. Catie: that's a big one. That's gonna be lots of gas. But that's good like it's so nice to get the second one potty trained. Is it your boy boy? Boy girl. Okay. Anne Josephson: Boy girl. Yeah. So the girl is the younger one. So I am praying that she will be a little bit easier than my son was. Catie: We'll see. Danielle did not have that experience. Anne Josephson: Ha ha ha. Danielle: Daisy when she did d they're more determined to do what they want to do, I feel. So Anne Josephson: Ha Danielle: Daisy w when she was ready, she was ready and it was boom. She had some issues with pooping in the potty. She was scared, like she felt like it did like it was coming, I don't know, it was a big thing, but she only the method worked. Once she was ready, it was like three days she was peeing on the potty, like never again. But the other Anne Josephson: Yeah. Danielle: part was took a little time. But you've got this. I mean, nothing Anne Josephson: Yeah, yeah, I got this. Everyone think Danielle: You got it. Anne Josephson: of me next week. Catie: Yes. All the good vibes. By the time everyone hears this, you will be a full potty trained house. Anne Josephson: Exactly. Exactly. Danielle: Yeah. Catie: So fun. so I know Danielle gave us a little bit of your background, but can you give us a little more insight onto the th you know, types of clients you work with, the work that you know inspires you and all the good things. Anne Josephson: Yeah, definitely. So I I know you mentioned this, Danielle, but I was a former special educator on the Upper West Side. So I worked with kids with language-based learning disabilities. And after a few years, I kind of was like, wait a second, like this isn't as fulfilling as I was hoping it would be. And I felt really at a loss for working with kids and families with a lot of the challenges I was seeing, but I just didn't know how to help. So anxiety, depression, ADHD. learning difficulties. And so I went back to school and ended up with a degree in school psychology. That's what my doctorate's in and worked at schools and in private practice, even though now I'm totally private practice. And I just love working with kids and families with anxiety and depression. A lot of a lot of the same types of students that I had formerly in the classroom I'm now working with. So kids that struggle to express themselves, kids that are really perfectionistic and rigid. And often, as you said before, working with the kids means working with the parents and the families. So we do quite a bit of parenting as well. We do some like specialized parenting intervention. One is called PCIT, parent-child interaction therapy, one is called space, supportive parenting for anxious childhood emotions. And I've just found that like working with parents, particularly being a parent myself, has been so amazing because I'm not one of those therapists that parents don't know about. Like I'm often like, I have two kids myself. You know, I went through that. parents will send me videos of what dinner time looks like. And I will watch them and kind of help them through that while also totally understanding, like, you know, with the toolbox they have currently, that's the best they could do. Danielle: Mm. Anne Josephson: And So yeah, a lot of families, and a lot of kiddos that I work with. Catie: And so I know one of the biggest things I think that everyone that's listening is trying to understand and see some of the flags of depression, anxiety, that especially in their kids as, you know, as the parent. But what are some of the patterns that you see that are coming up before anyone's kind of flagged that in a child? Anne Josephson: Yeah, so I would I would say for anxiety, kids that are behaviorally inhibited, kids that hang to the side, kids that hold their, you know, parents' legs that don't want to jump in there. And of course there's a certain amount of that that's normal, right? There are ages that separation anxiety flags. We all read the books and we're like, around this month, you know, our kids gonna Danielle: Yeah. Anne Josephson: start to notice that they're not with their parents. And and so it's kids that for a prolonged period of time. struggle to separate from their parents, struggle to jump in there, meet new adults, meet new children. That's really something we look for. We also look for a change in speaking behavior in different settings. So a child that at home is loud and screaming and you know, all over the place, if they're in school and their teacher says to you at parent-teacher conferences, like, I haven't heard of Pete from your kid all year. Sometimes teachers say that. Actually, kind of like they're trying to give you, you know, your kid's been so Danielle: Mm-hmm. Anne Josephson: quiet, your kids have been so lovely, that's a red flag. Why is my child not speaking in school? Right. And then we think about things like selective mutism, which is an early anxiety disorder. if your kid is, you know, describing a lot of tummy issues. I have, you know, a niece that often describes a lot of belly aches, and you know, we Sh looked into the food thing, we looked into all these different things. And then we started to like map out when are you experiencing that? And it became clear that a lot of it was related to certain anxiety-provoking situations. So anxiety can manifest in different ways, I guess is what I'm saying. And so oftentimes kids aren't able to explain to us, mommy, I'm worried. I'm nervous about this. And we as parents hopefully model, you know, using those words to describe different situations, but also. You know, it's about teaching them, your stomach hurts. This is what it could mean. Or your head hurts. Or, you know, you don't want to run on the playground. And you as a parent are like looking and you're like, everybody's safe out there. Like there's nothing scary. Why is my kid still holding on to me and refu and crying and refusing to go? yeah. So those are all like anxiety flags. Catie: I'm relating to everything you're saying. Danielle: So I have a question because my sorry, me, Katie are like, we have questions. But I think Catie: I we both are like, my gosh, our brain is it Anne Josephson: I hope I've been Danielle: and Katie, you're gonna see this more this year, I do think. not necessarily with Jack, but in school. So you were in schools first. And what I've noticed in talking to my friends in my own experiences, kids, especially kids who were born right before or during COVID, they're going to school now. And it feels like everybody's getting diagnosed or the like it's ADD, it's ADHD, it's ADD, and the symptoms of ADD and OCD and anxiety are so overlapping that like that this is what I'm seeing. I am not a doctor. So I'm asking you Anne Josephson: Yeah. Danielle: as a doctor, like the real person. Catie: Yeah. Anne Josephson: Hmm. Danielle: Is this really a thing that's happening where people are like not of any fault of anyone, but like A D D is kind of becoming the overarching theme, but there's a lot of kids suffering from different things and that's just the go to? Anne Josephson: So that's a really good question. So ADD is no more, it's ADHD, which all like people will come to me and say, I have ADD, not ADHD. And I'm like, everybody has ADHD because they changed it in the DSM 5. So we all have, well, not we all have, but when people have AD ADD, formerly ADD, right? It is actually ADHD. And there's different subtypes. There's predominantly inattentive, there's predominantly hyperactive impulsive, and then there's a combined presentation, which means that you Present with symptoms from either category. and so your question basically is are we over kind of identifying kids and putting them in the ADHD bucket when in actuality they should be put in these other buckets? And it really depends, right? So I had a conversation with someone a few weeks ago about the difference between anxiety and ADHD. And there, I just want to say there are high comorbidities between these things, meaning that you know if someone has one, it is not unlikely that they have something else. but for a kiddo that's anxious, right? A kid that has generalized anxiety disorder, they might appear like really, you know, stimulated. They might their leg might be shaking. They might be almost like someone plugged them into a wall, like kind of like buzzing a little bit. They might have racing thoughts. They might be impulsive. Right. So they might like just be so anxious, they just want to like rush to the answer or do the thing really quickly. A lot of those things are similar to a kid with ADHD, if you think about it, right? Danielle: Mm-hmm. Anne Josephson: So we have to kind of figure out based on talking to the kid. And that's why, you know, children before eight years old, we typically don't do individual treatment with, with regards to cognitive behavioral therapy. And the reason that we don't do it is because kids are not really able to. Explain why they did something and explain what they're thinking about something. They're just not cognitively there. So but prior to eight years old, we do different parenting modalities. And that is either with the child present and us teaching the parent or just with the parents alone. so it really depends at what age this child is and then who we can talk to about these various things. So, like if they're before eight years old and we're like, We don't know if they have ADHD. We don't know if they have anxiety. OCD feels a little bit different than ADHD. because OCD, right, is these intrusive thoughts, these obsessions that come into your mind, and then you engage in behaviors to neutralize said thoughts. So these are maybe you have the belief that something is dirty and so that you've touched it, and so you need to clean your hands a certain amount of times that you've deemed is appropriate, or until you feel just right and clean again. Danielle: Yeah, yeah. Anne Josephson: so that feels like a little different, but it depends on, I guess, the age of the kid and then who the reporters are. So typically we know that individuals are the best reporters of internal experiences. So you're a better reporter of your own anxious situations than like your partner or your parent or something like that. However, if you're acting out, other people are better reporters. So we kind Danielle: Okay. Anne Josephson: of have to consider what the behavior is. And then, you know, who's the the age of the kid and the reporter. and also anxious kids sometimes will act out, right? They're so anxious, they'll lash out, they'll yell at you, they'll get really irritable. That can be anxiety, that could be ADHD impulsivity. it could be kids with depression often present as really irritable, right? So it's like it's kind of figuring out doing some detective work with the people around this child that know them really well and then you could figure it out. But we really treat symptoms. It's not like we treat, you know, you have ADHD, let me punch it into a computer and I'm gonna treat exactly Catie: Yeah. Anne Josephson: that. I'm like, what are you presenting with and how can I help you learn to cope with it, learn replacement strategies, learn to make things a little bit easier in life. Catie: Yeah. And I think it's so interesting you talk about like how much involvement you have with the parents, especially, you know, at the younger age. because I'm listening to a lot of what you're saying and obviously identifying things with everyone on this that's listening to this podcast is gonna do that. And they're gonna be like, well, my kid does that, they do this. At what point Danielle: Mm-hmm. Catie: do you recommend get like where do you if a parent is thinking that, that's listening to this right now, what would you recommend to them? of where to start with their kid, knowing some of its age, some of its, you know, learning new things or change of whatever, at what point would you recommend doing something further? Anne Josephson: Yeah. So I typically consider like what are the environmental variables first, right? Like what is going on in our life? Did we just move cross country and our kids are just adjusting to like a new time zone and a new school and new caretakers and all the things, right? Like that's something to consider, right? What are biologically, what do we know the kid is predisposed to? What are the parents, you know, experiencing themselves? Are they anxious? Are they depressed? Are they struggling with ADHD symptoms and like executive function weaknesses. so I think about that. I also think about how much is this child's behavior or suffering impacting the family and the child themselves. So that that to me is really important. A lot of times parents will will talk to me about their kids sleeping in bed with them. That's a big one. For some parents, they're like, it's not a big deal. And then other parents are like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to sleep at night. If two kids in my bed, right? and you know, for some parent like sleeping in your bed at night, if you're able to get your kid out and it's not a big deal, fine, great. It's when we're, you know, struggling to change the routine and our kid is saying to us, no, mom, I'm not doing that, then Danielle: Mm-hmm. Anne Josephson: that to me is like a a trigger, or not a trigger, a red flag that perhaps like we need some extra help. Here. Catie: Yeah. It's interesting you bring that up and cause of course I'm relating it to my my older one is definitely showing signs of being super anxious. Drop off is really hard, but that's the only thing. Like he Anne Josephson: Yeah. Catie: any once he's there, like he warms up, he's with a trusted adult in that he's completely fine. And you pick him up and he's like, Why are you here? I wanna stay. Like it's just so like some ta and I'm just thinking me personally, right? But like I was like that as a kid. Anne Josephson: Yeah. Catie: my son bites his nails really bad. I always bit my nails, still do. Anne Josephson: Yeah. Danielle: You still do. Catie: It's like my th but it's just interesting that, you know, just trying to understand the points of like at what how at what point does the family need more support? Cause I think that's truly what you're doing is providing the entire family with the support and the tools that they need. So talk to us more. You mentioned two different acronyms here of the different styles of protocols and things that you follow. Talk to us more about some of those. Anne Josephson: Yeah, so PCIT parent-child interaction therapy is a type of therapy, and it's it's almost like behavior therapy and play therapy had a baby. And it is a two-part treatment, and it is typically done for children with noncompliance, children that are acting out, children that parents really struggle to manage them behaviorally. And it is, you know, PCIT is teaching you how to have a warm Relationship with your child so that when you ask them to do something, they're able to. So a lot of that first part of PCIT is built, we talk about like depositing into a bank, building that rapport with your child so they know, like, okay, my parents there, my parents are liable, my parents are interested in me, my parent cares about me. And then the second part about it is, you know, how can I ask for something for my child and get something in return, get them to comply with me because We don't realize it, but we're asking our kids to do stuff all day long. Danielle: Mm. Anne Josephson: Some of those requests are more effective than others. And most kids are not all that compliant. So these are for the kids that are like, you know, way less compliant than the average. And really what PCIT does is you use AirPods and we do it virtually at my practice, though some practices do it in person. And we coach parents. So we're in your ear coaching you to do. Danielle: So cool. Anne Josephson: What you need to do in order to you know engage with your child. So first we teach you play skills and then we teach you more of the behavior therapy skills. and we do sibling sessions if appropriate or wanted. we do a public outing. It's really, really cool. so we do that virtually. We also do something called space therapy. space therapy comes out of Yale and it is a type of therapy that is for Parents whose kids' anxieties and OCD run their lives. so I will have parents call the office and they'll be like, my kid is so anxious about taking elevators. We live in New York City and we're taking the steps. And we are avoiding doctors' offices. And we are I'm having to spend all this time running up and down. And if we forget something, like I have to run up 10 flights of steps, right? Or a lot of space people, you know, my kids sleeping with me, as I gave that example before. That's a big one we hear. and space therapy really helps provide parents with different ways to not accommodate their kids' anxieties. So we talk about accommodation a lot. And I had a funny conversation with my sister recently about it. Where I said, like, well, it's not good to accommodate your kid. And she's like, what are you talking about? Of course it's Danielle: Yeah. Anne Josephson: good to accommodate your kid. Like, that's what being a parent Catie: Okay. Anne Josephson: is. And I'm like, no, no, we have a very different definition of what accommodation is. Because in the anxiety world and the OCD world, accommodation is where you essentially change the situation to, you know, quell the anxiety, to make them feel better. And what we really know is. When people are anxious or uncomfortable in any environment, the human like urge is to make it better. It's to not make them feel uncomfortable. We all do this all the time. And Danielle: Good point. Anne Josephson: space therapy is basically for parents that they have really anxious kids. And as we all know, I mean, I know this about my own kids, it's a slippery slope to accommodating things. you don't like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches with the crust? Don't worry, I got this. I'm gonna do this every single day. We're gonna go out to restaurants and I'm gonna cut them off, or I'm gonna cut this in this specific way, or do this specific thing. and space really helps you learn how to stop accommodating and hold some boundaries and help support your kid in a really loving, amazing way, but also introducing them to the uncertainty of life. So. Danielle: Which I think is very Catie: Yeah. Danielle: important because we're gonna talk about overprotective parenting a bit, but there's also a joke that everybody's that not everybody, but a lot of people are talking about now. Anne Josephson: Uh-huh. Danielle: Like, are we creating or are we raising uncapable children? Like, is our overparenting or over course correcting or our need to make things easier for them, creating an environment for them where they can't do or are going to struggle to walk into difficult situations. And I think it's hard because as kids, we were the exact opposite, right? Like, do it. There's no crying in baseball. You've got this. Like let's go. No accommodations, right? And now we're in a world where you're sitting next to people and they're like, yes, we do A, B, C, and D. And if you don't do it, you think you're a horrible parent. Or if you do do it, you're like, wait, am I causing enablement here? So I think that's really Anne Josephson: Yeah, yeah. Danielle: hard right now. So how do you like decipher when you're being one or the other? Anne Josephson: Yeah, it's really hard. And I think it's like checking in with your gut as a parent. but I so I'm pretty behavioral, as you guys probably have gathered. and so oftentimes I really talk to parents a lot about not accommodating, about letting your child figure it out, about toler teaching your kid to tolerate uncertainty in life, failure, all of these things. And sometimes I talk to parents, I'm like, Can you tolerate this going wrong? Right. And some things, like a kid going to school in pajamas, some parents are like, I don't really care. It's not a big deal, whatever. Other parents are like, no, this is the SATs. I can't tolerate it. I will not be able to sleep at night if I know my kid didn't go to any of their tutoring sessions. So instead, I'm gonna sit next to them and do this tutoring session with them. And I mean that's like an over exaggeration, but It really there's so many different things that we have to decide. Are we gonna let our kid fail? Are we gonna do it for them? and I think, you know, the way that I juggle it is like checking with our gut. and also I talk to parents about like, is it truly your gut or is it your anxiety speaking? because we all can understand as parents that doing more, you're right. All the time people are like, I did. I didn't let them do that. You know, I did X, Y, and Z. and I I remember as a kid, I was joking with someone the other day, like my parents were like, go outside, play on the playground. Danielle: Come back when it gets dark out and we won't let our kids go four houses away. Anne Josephson: And you come back when it gets dark. You want to climb a tree? Climb a Catie: Yeah. Anne Josephson: tree. Cool. Yeah. okay, you fell like here's a band-aid, you could put it on, right? And now it is like swung so far in the other direction. I mean, parents are I had a conversation with a parent last week about not entertaining a kid. she was like, I'm so tired. I don't have time to entertain them. I go, so don't. She's like, Well, what do you mean? I'm like, You sit on the bench, you say, I'm here if you need me, and then you let them go make friends. Why are you Danielle: Mm. Anne Josephson: not a kid? Why are you entertaining them? that being said, I think that certain kids do re do require it, but you can, like coming from a teacher perspective, there's ways to shape any behavior, right? and so I think it's about tolerating that as parents, we don't need to do everything for them and we don't need to be on top of them and be there all the time. So much of being a kid is learning yourself. Catie: Yeah. And I think it's hard for the anxious parents to hear that of it because Anne Josephson: I know. Catie: it's hard to and I think, you know, you've talked so much about over protective parenting and understanding where the line is for, hey, yeah, I'm not gonna let them climb a tree because they're gonna fall and do this and that. And then part of it's like, well, I need to let them know why they shouldn't climb all the way to the top of the tree. I definitely struggle with this a lot. I'm like, if I can prevent injury in my house, I'm gonna do it. Anne Josephson: Which is hard, but I also think like you learn from those injuries, right? Like I'm not Catie: Yeah. Absolutely. Anne Josephson: saying like intentionally put your kid on a high branch that they're gonna fall from, but like Catie: Of course. Of course. Anne Josephson: my nephew recently broke his arm and like it it stinks he is a cast and like I'm sure he will learn from it. And there's so many, you know, we talk a lot about like natural and logical consequences. You go outside without an umbrella, your hair gets wet. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Anne Josephson: You look outside the next time. And those are way more powerful than anything we're going to implement in our home. Danielle: It so that being said, I feel like we need to look at so when you're dealing with anxious kids or Anne Josephson: Sure. Danielle: kids that are struggling, I am guessing based on what you said, a lot of times you are also dealing with an anxious parent or parents. Is that true? Anne Josephson: More often than not. Yeah, because it's like heritable. So it's like it, you know, it it has genetic component. More often than not, the parents are anxious. Or conversely, occasionally the parents totally can't relate. And they're like, My kid is so annoying. Like, not annoying, but they're like, This kid, like, they will Catie: Yeah. Anne Josephson: not get off of me, right? They just cannot relate. so In either situation, I mean, for the anxious parents, a lot of it is helping them with their own anxiety and intolerance of uncertainty. And then, you know, for the parents that can't relate, it's how can you be validating for an experience you've never had or you don't understand? Danielle: Are such like two different things, but either one, it always goes back to, I feel like, coaching the parent or helping the parent better understand how to show up for their child. Because I feel like so often in all of our households, so many of the problems that are occurring, not that they're problems, but the friction that we feel is the difference between our experience and what we want, and their experience and what they want. And it's hard to learn or to self-reflect or tell a spouse like, hey, I think this is actually like me or you or us and how we're relating to them. So how do you help or suggest people navigate that like once they're starting to recognize it? Anne Josephson: Yeah, so I do like a lot of like tap outs. You know, if you're noticing you're getting too worked up, tap out. And I like, you know, if I have been with my kids all morning and I'm like, my goodness, I am like ready to lose it. They like yelled at me for the tenth time. And then like, you know, I might say to my husband, like, I need a minute. I need like five minutes to like go Catie: Yeah. Anne Josephson: and like put on some moisturizer and Danielle: I Anne Josephson: like Danielle: wanna gouache after twenty minutes. Anne Josephson: Maybe drink a cold seltzer and like look at my phone and not be in this zone right Danielle: Okay. Anne Josephson: now. And so I tell parents, like very much practicing that. I also talk to parents about getting on the same page because there is nothing worse than undermining another parenting partner in front of your kids. That and threats. Don't make empty threats. But like Danielle: Mm-hmm. Anne Josephson: undermining a person next to you, your kids can be like, I don't trust you. Catie: Yeah. Anne Josephson: I just asked so and so, and they said this, and now you're fully going against them. Like, yeah, ideally you have a conversation prior to giving something or giving a consequence so that you're on the same page. But there are times we all experience where your kid goes to one parent and asks for something, or you have to make like a determination of a consequence and like you're just doing it. but the hope is that the parents or or the caretaking team is on the same. on the same team because it gets really hairy when you're Danielle: Yeah. Catie: It's so important because I feel like and I'm only relating because this literally happened yesterday. my Anne Josephson: Yeah. Catie: younger ones in that like I'm gonna I finally have the words to talk to you, like and give you all my thoughts and and talking back or no, I d the no has really come out. And yesterday we were we were I don't even remember what we were doing and he I just got to the point I'm like, I don't wanna yell at him. I need to be done. I go, I looked at my husband, I go, I'm going outside with the other one. He wanted to play soccer outside. I'm like, let's I'm gonna go outside. You've got this. Anne Josephson: Yeah. Catie: And you have to get good at it 'cause otherwise you'd be yelling twenty four seven sometimes, or like you'd just get to the boiling point so much quicker every time. But Anne Josephson: Totally. And it's also about doing what you need to do to before. Like I you know, I've known people throughout my parenting journey that have like, Your day starts when your kid wakes up. And I'm like, No, no, I need thirty minutes before that. I need to have a glass of water. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Anne Josephson: I need to have a matcha. I need to like brush my teeth and put on like any sort of skincare that I need and probably an outfit. And then my kids up and people will be like, Well, you're not gonna get your kid the second they wake up. No. Cause I would rather like, I mean, I'm joking, but I'd rather like plug myself in or get myself ready. Because if I don't do that, then I'm like presentful. Like Danielle: Yeah. Anne Josephson: they took away my morning. They didn't take away my morning. I just chose not to have one. Danielle: That's so I I think about it because it's really true. I feel like so often I am the in my house, I'm the I don't know how this happened because this is not me in real life. Like, but I am the calm one. I am the like probably because as a kid, like I struggled with anxiety and I know like I'm still grounding in like when I need to outside, like you know, doing those things. I've spent so much time on it that I'm like, I can be very calm in chaos. But like it's weird. So I'm always the one getting tapped in, I feel like, or that is I'm tapping myself in to keep things calm because I need that, or it's just gonna be more stressful. So then like in the mornings I'm always like, I couldn't do this. I couldn't do that. But you're right. It's like I did I chose not to do that to do. something else. But if I would have just taken the 15 minutes to shower, I wouldn't be sitting here complaining that I like look like a homeless person and I'm sweating. And then your kids hear that and you're like spreading that onto it's just such like a vicious cycle that we put ourselves in. But I feel like we do think as parents, especially working mom, I feel like when you're working too, you feel like you owe them more. You owe your kids more. You owe your spouse more. And that kind of leads me to like this We had this question. Women today are doing, I think it's like 70% more with their kids than women did before. And we're still feeling like it's not enough. We're so burnt out and we're feeling guilty and it's not enough. Like, how is it possible that doing more feels like doing less? Anne Josephson: Yeah, so I think it's a few different things. and I think part of it is now kids like have a million extracurriculars. They have a million things that they're doing. And I like vowed I wouldn't be that parent. And last night I was sitting at dinner with my mom and sister, and I'm like, and he has this and he has this, and he and my mom looked at me, she's like, like where when I was growing up, I didn't have any of those things. So I think that, you know, kids are so much more scheduled. Parents are doing so much more. Think about it, we all walk around with a computer in our hands. Danielle: Mm. Anne Josephson: We don't need to wait till the weekend to do, you know, to furnish the house or to, you know, buy the groceries or any of that stuff. We do it all 24 hours a day. and I often talk to people about like, I sleep with my phone outside of my room. People are like, my God, what what if people need to reach you in the middle of the night? Danielle: Sounds amazing. Anne Josephson: I'm like, then they call a few times. I set it up. It'll ring. It'll ring if they call three times. It's an emergency. They will find me. And also, my kids, like, I'll hear them. I hear my kids. Like, they don't there what emergency is gonna be so big that there's no way to wake me up, right? And it is amazing. It is so helpful with like anxiety and regulating and calming down at night. because you're off the clock. And I think the issue these days is the reason we're all so burnt out is we're never off the clock. Danielle: Yeah. Anne Josephson: It is not easy to have young kids to begin with. And now the expectations are so great, and we're just not off, we're never off. I mean, I think as working parents, like I I went to pickup recently and the head of the school was like, my God, we never see you. And I was like, I I just came home and I'm like, I I don't think she meant it like that, but don't you think I'd want to be here if I could? Danielle: Yeah, and that's like someone said to me Catie: Yeah. Danielle: once when Colton was in daycare, Jordan did drop off and pickup because he left early. We and we had Daisy, like he left early and I worked later. So it just worked out that he took and I picked up. I was working from home. And after like a a year or something, somebody was like, I came and I did go. Like I would go, but it was another parent who's like, I thought Jordan was a single dad. And I was like, Well. I would love to be here every like I would love to not send him here. But the reality is, A, I do like to work, but B, I'm working to support my family. Like this is like a role I have to play. And it's so hard to hear because those are the moments where you're like, I already feel, to be honest, like, excuse it, but like I feel like shit already about it. Like, thank you. I know you didn't mean it that way, but thank you very much. Like, why? Anne Josephson: A hundred percent. Like I already Catie: Yeah. Anne Josephson: feel bad. And so I think that there's like this growing pressure as moms to do it all. Like it is just endless the amount of things we have to deal with. And I think our parents, because and I really do attribute it a lot to phones these days, like our parents, they it just wasn't as accessible. Phones and internet, they couldn't work 247. So instead they hung out with us. Which was way less taxing if you're not thinking about a hundred other things. Or they let us do our own thing. Like even going outside. Danielle: Yeah, and go in like you couldn't go to Netflix and put on Gabby Cat for the hundredth time. Like your show showed up at Friday at five. That's all you get. Anne Josephson: No, you're that's all you get, and you figure it out, right? And like it was, we can't order from every restaurant in New York City. We can just we're just Catie: Yeah. Anne Josephson: going to get pizza at the place that we always get pizza at, and that's what we're gonna do. And so I think this like there's just endless optionality about the way that we can spend our time and things we can do. I think parents are utterly exhausted. Because there's this belief that they need to entertain their kids all the time. I mean I think people's heads explode sometimes when I say like why? Why do you need to do that? Like just let them like let them twiddle their thumbs, like let them split grass. People are like, and blow. Danielle: To and blow. Come on, let's let's do it. Catie: Well, it's so it's so true. It's so true. So one of the thi and so my husband's a a fifth grade teacher and you know, of course he knows everything about kids, right? But one of the things that he's always brought up was he's very strong on they don't have to have something to do twenty four seven. And it came from me. I was always trying to be like, Let's do a craft or let's do like and he's like, just let them figure it out. Like it's so good for their imagination and like All this stuff. And I have seen like we've adjusted our toy selection in our house too to have like some things that they can build and some little characters. Anne Josephson: Mm-hmm. Catie: And my little one is so good at imaginary play. Like he can set up a whole village by himself, play, have them talk to each other. And my husband has started pointing it out to me where he's like, Not every kid can do that. Like people are we're enabled to the point of this where you put on the show and of course there's a time and place for Netflix and all of those things, right? But it's you they're losing out on some of that part of childhood that we all got to experience that because, you know, we're trying to make everything Pinterest worthy and feel like we can say we did ten activities this week and we went here and we did this. And sometimes they just need to play. Anne Josephson: Yeah. I mean in the mornings, like I wake up really early in the morning to have stuff to do, and my son has now like gotten wind of this, so he wakes up the same time. Danielle: Mm. Anne Josephson: And so it's like 5 30 in the morning, and the two of us are going downstairs to like do our things. And I'm like, okay, buddy, I'm gonna make coffee. I'm gonna do my work a little bit. And he sits and plays with magnetiles or builds or whatever. And I'm like, you he and I'm like, we're gonna go to work. You're gonna work over here. Sometimes I give him photos because he loves photos. I have like a stack of printed pictures of the family. And I'm like, here are your pictures. And he'll sit there and like look through them and talk about them. And, you know, sometimes it's little hard to do work when he's talking about them. But it's really like, I'm like, I just, you know, if if you're gonna do this, fine, but we also need to do other things. So you gotta figure something out. Catie: Yeah, this isn't the time. Danielle: Yeah, I feel like Daisy is in that mode too right now. Like she's now wake she used to sleep and I would be able to do stuff. She wakes up with me, Anne Josephson: Yeah. Danielle: but like her it's so funny watching her mimic my routine. Like she does skin she's three and a half. She does skincare. She does coffee. Guess Katie knows she will die without her coffee, but it's chocolate milk. Like she has her coffee. She has her laptop. She'll tell me to stop talking because she's got a meeting. Like she like does all Anne Josephson: Love that. Danielle: these things and I laugh because I'm like, she there Just like we used to with our parents, like that's why we played house, or that's why we played teacher, Anne Josephson: Yeah. Danielle: as we were mimicking what we saw. But I think as parents too, if I hear one more person that's like from a different generation, be like, but you have so much flexibility in your work. It's like, no, Anne Josephson: Yeah. Danielle: what you're looking at as flexibility is me working till 2 a.m. while after the kids Anne Josephson: Yeah. Danielle: go to bed because like I am trying to balance like all the things. We have created a world where you're expected to be there for everyone all the time. So in your per like when you're talking to families and you're talking to yourself, you say you sleep with the phone outside. What are some other simple things we can do to lessen the overwhelm? Anne Josephson: So I I also think a lot of people will limit their access to their phone in the morning, right? Like I formerly had a supervisor that would she would only check her email like a few times a day rather than having it going. I know like Gmail has the capacity to like pause your email or what I do oftentimes I schedule send stuff. So if I have a minute, you know, I'll do stuff. I will Take, I mean, I keep talking about like limiting electronics. I think that's a huge one. I think a lot of people, when you're parents, and I as parent of two young kids, you're so exhausted by the end of the day and you feel like you have no time to claim for yourself that what people will do is then they claim, you know, that end of the night. So they'll watch TV because they have no time, or they'll, you know, look at their phone and scroll for hours. And I'm a big believer in like, That is not gonna help you as much as sleep is gonna help you. And so find times if you can, and I know they're really hard to carve out to do the things you need to do. Like find a time to do a five-minute workout or something to just like keep you so like I always say kids are not gonna turn around when they're 25 years old and be like, Mom, thank you so much for breastfeeding me for a year and a half. I am so lucky. You really did a good job there, right? Nailed it. Danielle: Nail that. Catie: You nailed it. Anne Josephson: No. Like what ends up happening is like people walk around like zombies for a year and a half, like connected Danielle: Mm-hmm. Anne Josephson: to their kid, and they haven't done anything for themselves. And then they're really resentful and they're exhausted. And, you know, maybe they're working. And so there's like all of these things going on. So making sure that your kids are the most important things to you in the world, but also like. Taking a second and putting the oxygen mask on. Like, what can you do for you that is meaningful and valuable? And I often go back to like trying to eat as healthy as you can, drinking water, you know, exercising. If you can, even if it's five minutes, even if you hold your kid, like there are times I'm doing a plank and like my daughter is like underneath my face. And I'm like, this is an enjoyable situation. Like We're just doing this face to face. Catie: Yeah. Anne Josephson: Like, do Danielle: Ha ha Anne Josephson: like whatever you can do, just trying that rather than being so fixated on entertaining your kids all day long. Cause they'll figure it out. And it's like, you know, once they go to college, like what are we gonna do with that? Danielle: True. Both ways, right? Catie: I don't I don't want to think Danielle: They need to function and Anne Josephson: Yeah, Danielle: we need to function again. Anne Josephson: totally, totally. Catie: So as a mom yourself, having all of these tools in your tool belt, how does this advice show up for you? Or how often are you ignoring your own advice in your own house? Anne Josephson: it shows up a lot when I find myself asking my kids to do a million things at once when I'm like, go grab your shoes and get on your jackets and do this and grab this. And then I'm like, wait a second. Or like I just gave them like six indirect commands. There is no way Danielle: Mm. Anne Josephson: they're following this. Or when I give them like a big command, like clean up your room, I'm like, wait. Like they don't even know what that means. so I catch myself with like commands. I catch myself a lot like trying to model and validate. So I modeling is essentially like I'm showing my kid my own experience with the hope that they will learn from that. with like regards to validation, I do a lot of that. Like my son's four and a half. He'll come in and get upset about like he'll be like, I wanted to have granola this morning. And I'm like, we literally have granola, it's right there. Behind like this one thing, right? Like tears. So I'll be like, I know it's so upsetting when you wanted something and you weren't able to get it immediately. So I try to do a lot of that. we all lose our patience. So like I would be lying if I said I didn't yell at my kids. And I tell my patients that I'm like, my God, I lost it last night. Like it was the 50th time someone had asked me for the same thing, and I screamed at them. And Danielle: Yep. Anne Josephson: I needed to take a minute. To walk out of the room and I just I didn't have energy to read to them at bedtime. So I tapped my husband in and he did it. And I literally laid on my bed and just did nothing because I needed that. Right. So I'm like really honest Catie: Does it Anne Josephson: about that. that sometimes like, you know, we we even can know everything about the thing and still do it opposite. And that's okay because we're all humans. Danielle: It makes us feel better, like, you know, that we're that you like are talking about it all like all day to know that it's still a a thing, right? Because it's not something that just happens naturally all the time. Like we're all human beings. So thank you for being Anne Josephson: Yeah. Danielle: like vulnerable enough to say, like, listen, I did this because when we do it next time, we're gonna be like, it's okay to do it. Give you like like Anne Josephson: Exactly. Catie: Yeah. Danielle: nobody's perfect, they can play with themselves. Anne Josephson: Yeah, no, Catie: Ha ha ha. Anne Josephson: totally. I mean, like also like I I I'm the type of therapist that, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy you don't really share about yourself, whereas dialectical behavior therapy you do, right? You share with your patients with an effort for them to understand you connect you. So there has to be some therapeutic goal in the sharing. And I have always I just always learn to share with people because ha they're coming in and telling you their stuff for 45 minutes a week, an hour a week. And what? You're not gonna tell them a single thing about your life that just feels so weird to me. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Anne Josephson: and I just I don't know. My hope with patients is to really connect with them, to make them feel like we're in it together, like I'm teaching them skills and I'm cheerleading. And so I think a lot of that is done through actually sharing your own situations and experiences. not gonna tell them everything because that's ridiculous Catie: Right. Anne Josephson: and not therapeutically valuable, but like I I definitely share more than probably most therapists. Danielle: I think that it Catie: A lot. Danielle: it's important to a lot of like, especially women like women, we want to feel seen. And sometimes feeling seen is knowing that, like by you saying this happened at my house, you are hearing what I'm saying and saying, I get it. Like I hear you, I lived in. I think that is something we all like look for. And because nothing's worse than somebody telling you all the things that you should do and how when you're already feeling like you're not perfect, your kids having tan like whatever it is you're going through, you know, and then everyone's like, This is what you do, and this is or you're watching Pinterest and the woman's in the beautiful dress making sourdough and her kids are like sewing crochet while my Anne Josephson: Yeah. Danielle: kids are eating play-doh in the corner, like you know, it's just like one you're like, no. So I think like it is something we're all looking for. And I think one like last thing, like we have other close a couple closing questions, but one last thing is like if you're struggling with stuff going on with your child or noticing behaviors, they're starting school and you're noticing things, like at what point do you tell parents, hey, like it's time to s get some pr like help? Like whether it's for you or the kid, like when is do you know that this isn't not that it's not normal, but like you don't have to live with the behavior or the Anne Josephson: Yeah. when school starts reaching out, when other parents are looking at you, when you're noticing that behaviors appear bigger and more long lasting than same age peers. and when things are just causing so much chaos in your family. I mean, like I talk to people all day, I'm like, you don't have to suffer as much as as you think. Like, Life is hard enough. There are some things that we could probably do and tweak to make things a little bit better. so yeah, I think like feel like if you're going to bed every single night and you're like, this is just it's just really hard because I have young kids. Yes. And is there possibly something else going on that, you know, is at play here? And if so, that's okay. We all have shit in our own lives. But it's like knowing when it's just too much for your own your own understanding to handle. Catie: Yeah. It's so important to n to know the the the points of that. But we appreciate your realness 'cause sometimes people think this stuff's like scary or they don't wanna talk about it or they don't wanna admit like Anything ever wrong with your precious babies, which I understand. You don't want to think that there's something wrong, but it's not even that. It's just understanding the tools available and the the help that you can get. So we appreciate you being out. We probably could talk for like three hours, quite honestly. Can Anne Josephson: Probably. Catie: you give everyone listening a little info on how they can get in touch with you, follow along, reach out? Anne Josephson: Yeah, so they can find us at uptown psychology ny dot com or they can find us on Instagram at Uptown Psychology or you can always email us at info at uptown psychology ny.com. Reach out, we're we're around, or I'm I'm sure you guys will put it in the show notes as well. Yeah. Catie: We'll have it in there. Danielle: We will put everything there for them too. Catie: Well, thank you so much for being on, truly. This was such a good convo. Again, I appreciate your realness. And we'll have to have you back, quite honestly. There's so much more we didn't hit. There's so Anne Josephson: Yeah, thank you guys. I know we we could talk forever. Danielle: Yes. Thank you. Catie: much we didn't hit. But we'll see you all next time.