Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / Behind the Plate to Behind the Lineup - Derek Shelton

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Behind the Plate to Behind the Lineup - Derek Shelton · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings. Alongside Ryan McDonough, I
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: am fad Levine. This week we have Derek Shelton, thirty
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: year Major League player coach manager who's going to join
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: us RAN. Before we get to our conversation with Shelty, though,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question from a listener.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Matt from Louisville wants to know what did you make
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: of the whole envelope rule and how it impacted the
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: end of the Ryder Cup.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: That I was fortunate enough to attend the Ryder Cup
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: this past weekend at Bethpage Black Golf Course on Long Islands.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: It was a bucket list event for me. I've been
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: fortunate to go to a bunch of big sporting events
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Super Bowls, NBA Finals, the Olympics, etc. And this was
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: really neat. To have the Ryder Cup on US soil
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: in the metro New York area was really fun. So
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: I'll admit I didn't know anything about this rule. I
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: was on the course on Friday, and for those who
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: don't know, the Ryder Cup is a three day event.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Friday and Saturday are team play. There are foursomes, two
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Americans and two Europeans. Play against each other in different formats,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: but on Sunday, all twelve players are supposed to play
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: in singles matches. What I hadn't thought about that to
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: be blunt, is what happens if somebody's injured and not
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: able to play in a singles match. And I found
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: out the answer. There's a rare rule involving an envelope
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: where on Saturday night, after the team play is done
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: but the singles play is about to get started, the
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: captain on each side, so in the US case, Keegan
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Bradley and on the European side, Luke Donald, they need
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: to write down the name of one player and put
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: it in a sealed envelope that they hope has never
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: opened and unsealed, because that is the player who is
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: going to sit out in the singles match if a
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: player on the other team is not able to play.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: So unfortunately that that's exactly what happened. The US was
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: in a big hole. I think they were down twelve
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: to five. Europe only needed fourteen points, so they needed
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: just to win two matchups on Sunday, And what happened
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: was Victor Hoblind, who played pretty well from Norway for
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: the European team. He had a neck injury, he went
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: and got an MRI, he got treatment, he was not
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: able to play. That they made the determination Sunday morning.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: So sure enough, here comes the envelope. It gets opened
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: and out comes the name of Harris English. So poor
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Harris English with his team in a huge hole, and
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: now we know what happened. The US went on a
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: historic run on Sunday and almost pulled off by far,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: the best comeback in Ryder Cup history. They fell just short.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: But poor Harris English, one of twelve teammates, has to
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: go watch the eleven other American guys go out there
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: and play extremely well, have all this momentum, and he
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: is just sitting out. In fact, the thing that I
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: couldn't understand that I want to get your take on,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: is in any other sport, when a participant is not
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: able to compete or a team's not able to compete,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: that is a forfeit and that team loses. That's not
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: the case in the Ryder Cup. Because Victor Hoblin was
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: unable to play, the US had to basically disqualify Harris English,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: and then each team got a half point. It was
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: essentially a tie, which to me that as a rule
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: that I don't understand and one that I think needs
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: to be changed.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: It seems remarkable. It seems like it's just ripe for
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: so much manipulation. I mean, you know, we remember Beck
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: and Golf and Caddy check when Rodney Dangerfield had his
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: injury to his arm and got to replace himself. I
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: mean that you just don't see that in between then
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: and now.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: But yeah, it just.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Seems like, you know, what's stopping a player on the
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: deem from saying, hey, listen, I'm not feeling great to
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: manipulate the score at the last so that you actually
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: can have the score and potentially win as a result
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: of that. It just seems it just seems like there's
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: so much manipulation that could happen there. You know, it
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: leads us down the path of like thinking of what
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: are some of the other rules in our respective sports
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: that we would recommend changing, Because when you watch the
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: game as closely as we have over our careers, there
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: are things that just leave you where the practical application
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: of a rule doesn't seem to really clearly match the
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: theory of the genesis of the rule. And I'm thinking
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: of a few things in baseball, and I'll just name
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: a few, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: in the NBA. One is kind of the whole concept
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: of errors in baseball, I think has gotten pretty far afield.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: The fact that a pitcher who makes an error and
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: then that run scores. It's an unearned run, so it's
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: actually the picture's mistake, but it's an under and run.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: And you know, pictures that one of the most important
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: statistics for them is er, so you know, they can
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: engineer an under and run on their own, and that
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: seems a little bit silly.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Another thing relative to errors is that as much as
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: we've modernized the game and automated so many of the
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: elements of it, we still have people who are sitting
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: in the press box who are the official scorers, who
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: very subjectively determine in each instance of you know, fifty
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: to fifty balls, whether that was an error or a hit. Well,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you know, a picture
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: salary is driven a lot by his ra which would
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: be in acted by that decision by that person, But
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: so too is the hitters salary is impacted by his
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: batting averages on base percentage and his slugging percentage. Those
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: are all impacted by somebody who's just sitting up there,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: who I'm not saying is flipping a coin. But sometimes
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: these are very you know, on the margin calls and
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: very subjective decisions, and they're impacting people's salaries. The last
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: one that is a rule that was proposed in baseball
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: that has not actually taken root, but I think would
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: cause a lot of debate is we've talked about in
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: the playoffs that the higher seed would actually get to
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: pick their opponent in the first round. So in this instance,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: the Cleveland Guardians are the three seed in the American League,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: they would get to pick whether they wanted to play
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: any of the seeds below them. Similarly, the Dodgers would
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: get the same choice, and then going to the next round,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Milwaukee is the one seed in the National League would
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: get to choose who emerged from the first round who
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: they got to play in the second round Toronto in
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: the American League. That hasn't made it to the books yet,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: but that is another one that I think would draw
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: a lot of debate on both sides of the ledger.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: But for you, Ryan, what are some things that jump
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: out to you? In the NBA of rules that have
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: always left you scratching your head.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Get to follow upon what you just said about Major
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: League Baseball teams thinking about picking their opponent. That has
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: been discussed in the NBA as well. The NBA right
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: now has a bracket they rank the teams one through eight,
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: and that bracket does not change. So that's another thing
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: that's been discussed. That is reseeding after each round. Should
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: the number one seed, if they continue to advance, always
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: get the lowest seed versus say, if the seventh seed
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: in the NBA playoffs upsets the two seed, they're on
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: different sides of the brackets, so the number one seed
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: would not meet the seven until the conference finals. Should
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: they just get that team, theoretically the second worst team
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: in the playoffs in the next round. That's been discussed
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: as well. A few rules I'd like to see change
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: that I think it's important for us to to take
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: our listeners inside why these things get change sometimes and
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: why they don't. This rule, frankly, is probably more important
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: to front office executives like us than.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: It is to owners.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: But one of the rules that I'd love to see
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: change in the NBA is on rookie scale contract options.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: I know that's a mouthful, but a player gets drafted
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: in the NBA in the first round, he has a
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: two year guaranteed contract. Well, the challenge is on those contracts,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: you have to decide before the last guaranteed season if
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: you're going to opt in for next season. So, for example,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: fad guys who were just in the draft one year
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: ago in twenty twenty four, right now they had last
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: season and this season guaranteed. But before this regular season starts,
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: teams are going to have to decide do I want
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: this to pick up this player's option for next year
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: the twenty twenty six twenty twenty seven season, And you
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: don't have the benefit of eighty two games to find
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: out that throughout the course of regular season, so teams
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: are guessing. As you can imagine, with young players draft
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: in the first round, teams usually opt in, especially to
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: that third year option, but having to this after year one,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: do we want this guy for year three? When keeping
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: in mind these are the very youngest players in the league.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: Sometimes teenagers is a position that I don't think teams
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: should be put in, and frankly, it's different from most
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: veteran options, which are pretty much all exercised after the season,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: most of them after the NBA Finals, when you've had
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: the course of eighty two games in the regular season
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: and the playoffs to decide.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: So I don't like that.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: An adjacent rule to that ad that I really don't
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: like is if a team decides to decline the player's
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: option and then trades the player the receiving team the
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: team that traded for the player who had his option
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: declined by another team, they're limited in terms of what
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: they can pay that player to the amount of the
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: option that was declined. So that's a little bit complex,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: But basically, the reason the NBA has that rule that
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: it exists is because they did not want teams declining
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: options safe for superstars. So pick a young Lebron James
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: or Giannis victor Wim Miyama in this case, they did
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: not want that teams that declining that option and then
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: giving him a giant contract to kind of cur favor
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: and you know, enforce his loyalty to the team keep
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: them off the open market. So I understand why a
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: current team can't exceed the amount of the option, but
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: I don't like that. If you're another team. You see
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: a young guy who maybe hasn't worked out somewhere else,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: you want to take a challenge, take a chance on
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: him and say he blows up in your uniform. Well,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: you have a ceiling on what you can pay that player.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: So if you're in a developmental stage, it's often better,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: in a counterintuitive way, to let that player play somewhere else,
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: because if he's really good and you have money, then
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: you're not limited. You can pay him anything next year.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: So those are a couple of rules I would like
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: to change, along with one final one.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: That and this is timely.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: We've talked about a lot with the LA Clippers, Donald Sterling,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Kawhi Leonard, the Aspiration scandal. The NBA's tampering policies I
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: think to this point have generally been pretty weak. Some
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: of them where teams have been caught having impermissible conversations
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: with free agents. Poor free agency started have resulted in
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: just the removal of a second round pick or two.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: And to put that in context, in the NBA, you
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: can buy into the second round with cash. Team sell
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: picks for cash, So if the reward is you might
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: get a great free agent or two, but if you
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: get caught, you're only going to lose a second round
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: pick who's not nearly as good as the free agent
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: you're going to get. And then your owner, if he's
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: willing to spend and then go and buy another second
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: round pick, why wouldn't you do it in that case?
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: So those are some of the things I'd like to
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: see changed, you know, Thad, because I think the punishment
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: kind of has to match up, you know, with what
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: you're getting if you're successful in it, and the risk
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: reward in the NBA, to me, has incentivized people to,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: if not outright cheet, really go into that gray area
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: because the upside is so significant and right.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: I think we've talked about it in previous episodes, but
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I think your points spot on, which is, you know,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: these rule books are thick. There's a lot of rules
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: that govern our actions. Some are really not enforced as strictly,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: and most of those, in my opinion, were ones that
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: don't really impact the competitive balance. So an example of
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: that would be there's a signing deadline where you can
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: sign international free agents in Major League Baseball, but typically
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: weeks in advance of that, somebody will write an article
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: in which they'll detail all the projected signings for the deadline,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: and they're pretty much spot on. But I don't think
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Major League Baseball is really in the business of wanting
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: to crack down too hard on that because it doesn't
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: discernibly impact the competitive balance issues. But then when you
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: start maturing into where you're starting to tamper with people's
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: employees or people's players, that really does and you start
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: seeing more severe penalties. But then I think on the extremes,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: when something happens like the transgression in Houston that led
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: to a World Series title, and then ultimately the penalty
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: is a five million dollar fine for fans, executives, people
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: in the game, that seems misaligned with the actual transgression.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: So there's a sliding scale here that in my experience,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: is really linked to how much it's impacted the competitive
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: balance or imbalance in some cases. But probably the lead
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: have additional latitude on the extremes that they're just not anticipating.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: I've been around a lot about college basketball coaches over
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: the last twenty five years, and before paying players was
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: legal with the NIL the dilemma a lot of them
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: faced was if you win, good things will happen. Either
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: with your current employer, you'll get a contract extension, stay employed,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: continue to go forward, or even if you get fired
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: but you've won, you probably get a job somewhere else.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: So there are a lot of guys who lamented doing
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: it the right way. They weren't cheating, they weren't paying players,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: but they lost and then they were beat by guys
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: who were paying players. And that's a difficult one. You know, basically,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: win and good things happen. But in some situations, in particular,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: to win, you probably had to venture in the gray,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: or go through all the way through the grayer and
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: get to the black and pay guys under the table
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: to try to keep winning. These are the challenges and
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: dilemmas that executives face across sports. We're going to be
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: right back after this. We're going to have Derek Shelton,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: you know most recently as the manager from the Pittsburgh Pirates.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Listen to him on Sirius XM. You've seen him on
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: the MLB Network. That now will be right back with
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Derek Shelton right after this, stay with us on Rosters.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: It ranked Welcome back to Rosters, Soraines alongside Ryan McDonough
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: I am Thad Levigne. I'm really excited to bring on
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: dear friend and colleague, Derek Shelton. Born to Kathy and Run,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Derek strapped on his first set of catchers Geart age three.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Derek played high school baseball for his father, who was
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: his coach, before enrolling in Southern Illinois University. Derek's minor
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: league playing career was cut short by an elbow surgery
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: after he posted an incredible three to forty one batting
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: average across forty six minor league games. After serving parts
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: of eight seasons as a minor league coach, Derek was
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: named the hitting coach for the Cleveland Indians in two
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: thousand and five. He then served for seven seasons as
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: the hitting coach for the Tampa Bay Rays before assuming
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: his role as quality control coach for the Toronto Blue Jays.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Derek served as the bench coach for the Minnesota Twins
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen, and in twenty nineteen,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Derek was named the manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates, a
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: post he held for five plus seasons. In twenty twenty two,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Craig Calcateria ranked Derek the seventh most handsome manager in
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: the major leagues, notably behind Rocco Baldelli and Kevin Cash. Derek,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Rosters to Rinks.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you very much. I appreciate that illustrious introduction.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: I think the only thing you got wrong there that
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: is that the injury did not end my career. Lack
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: of ability ended my career. So I was three forty
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: five batting average.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: You got to hold on to that for us.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I really appreciate the fact that Rocco
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: finished above me in the most handsome manager I mean.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Roco and Kevin I sore as if I've ever seen
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: them finishing ahead of.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I still hear about that weekly from Roco.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: So there we go, Chelte.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: One of the tradition on Rosters to ringses we asked
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: each guest who comes on to share their sports origin story,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: how did you fall in love with sports as a kid,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: and specifically baseball?
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Oh, I think you hit on it there. I played
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: for my father in high school. My father was a
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: high school teacher, then further was an administrator and was
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: a basketball coach. Was a baseball coach. He played in
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: the Oriel organization. He played on an Oriel team that
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: I think is you and I have talked about that.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: His rookie year that Joe Altabelli managed had Bobby Gritch,
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: Don Baylor, Johnny Oates, the other Ron Shelton, who was
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: the director of Bull Durham. Sports were just rampant throughout
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: our house. I mean it was three sports. I grew
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: up in northern Illinois. So the love I think of
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: sports basically comes from the fact that my dad was
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: just immersed in it, and then he had marsed my
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: brother and I into it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Shelton, people look at the end, which for you, at
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: least until this point, was manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: But I think the path shaped so much of us
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: along the way to that point. Once you became the
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: manager for the five plus years, how did your path
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: as a minor league player and then working for some
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: of the most progressive organizations in baseball Cleveland, Tampa Bay, Toronto, Minnesota,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: despite that as negative influence there, and then Pittsburgh, how
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: did that How did all those stops along the way
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: impact you when you became manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates, Right, I.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: Think that's a great point. I think at each at
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: each stop you learn something, and I was really and
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: I love the word you used their progressive. I was
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: very fortunate that I worked for probably the most progressive organizations.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Cleveland was ahead of their time at the at that
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: point with Mark Shapiro running that, and then Tampa was
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: way ahead of everybody else for a lot of years.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: And I think that the league has caught up. So
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: not only I think that I take from the organization
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: in the way the organizations were run from the top down,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: from ownership down, the front office down, but secondly, the
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: gentleman that I worked for, the leaders and the one
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: thing that I took from every guy that I worked for,
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: whether it was Eric Wedge or John Gibbons or Kevin
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: or Joe Madden or Rocco or Paul malader is everyone
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: made it about the player. And I think at our
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: level that's the most important thing, because the old adage
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: of we all don't have jobs unless there's the players
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: is very true, and I think we could never lose
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: sight of that in a leadership position, Shelty, I want.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: To dive a little bit deeper there, you know, having
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: gotten a chance to work with you some of your
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: superpowers or that you're an exceptional relationship person. Your ability
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: to connect to every type of player in the clubhouse
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: is so unique. Can you talk a little bit about
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: that and share with the listeners that the diversity in clubhouses,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're connecting with Jason Castro, MIGUELSONO Byron Buxton,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Max Kepler, these people come from very different backgrounds, very
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: different educations. You had the magical touch of like lifting
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: all of those guys up. Where was that instilled in you?
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: And can you talk to the to the list a
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: little bit about that?
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I do think that
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: the genesis of that starts two places. Number one, it
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: starts with my dad being a high school administrator and
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: watching him have interactions a lot of the people that
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: I grew up around that were in my house, you know,
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: as a young child, were teachers. And then I watched
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: my dad transition from being a teacher and being a
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: peer in that situation to being an administrator and basically
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: being these people's boss, and then the interaction of how
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: they were with him. And I think the biggest thing
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: that I learned in that situation was the ability to listen.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: And I think best, our best leaders are listeners first,
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: so I think that's kind of where it transitioned from.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: And then I worked for a gentleman in New York
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: by the name of Mark Newman, who ran the Yankee
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: system for a long time and was credited a lot
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: with developing that system in terms of I mean the
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: core four came from there, that you know, with Pasada
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: and Jeter and Pettitt and Mariano, but it was also
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: the coaches did he developed in the ability to take
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: someone outside the box. And I can remember specifically working
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: an instructional league one year and that, as you highlighted,
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: I was a catcher, and all of a sudden, Mark
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: was like, you're working with the outfielders and I knew
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: nothing about outfielders and I got thrown in a group
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: with veteran outfielders. So the ability to listen, learn, study,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: understand what was going on. And then the last component
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: to that, I think in our game today, it's so multicultural.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Guys are coming from all over the world. And I
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: managed in the Golf Coast League for the Yankees for
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: two years and one of the teams I managed, we
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: had eight position players that started that none of them
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: spoke English. And I did not speak Spanish, So you
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: learned from talking to people about the inflection of your voice,
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: what you say, how sarcasm is not understood, And I
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: mean you've been around me. I'm a sarcastic person. So
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: how you changed the tenor of your voice I think
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: helps you. So you take every step along the way
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: things that maybe you don't think about, but then you're
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: able to add into a major league clubhouse to develop
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: those relationships.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Shelty, I think the reviews of this podcast are
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: generally positive, but how sarcasm is not understood, it might
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: be one of the negative ones with that. And I
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: got back and forth on now on tangents just about
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: random things. I want to go back to the beginning
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: again with you. And I'm sure when you started thirty
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: plus years ago in baseball, the organizations were so much
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: smaller than they are now. So how as a young
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: guy starting out were those smaller you know, did those
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: smaller organizations benefit you as far as probably the ability
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: to do more You mentioned working with the outfielders there,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: and as the organizations have grown and as you ascended
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: to a major league manager with the Pirates, how did
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: managing those people impact their job and how much time
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: did it take up to manage an entire organization, which
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I think most people don't realize how big these clubs
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: at the highest levels in the NBA and Major League
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Baseball are today as far as the expanse of people
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: you have to manage.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right. I think the first part of that it
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: was it was maybe why my assent to hire jobs
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: might have happened quicker than other people. Is when I
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: got the job with the Yankees in the minor leagues,
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: I moved to Tampa. I grew up in northern Illinois.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: I moved to Tampa, and it was probably the best
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: thing that I ever did, because you know, minor league
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: coaches are paid year round, but they only really work
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: from February fifteenth, when spring training starts, until the end
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: of the season. Well, I lived in Tampa and Mark Newman,
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: who I talked about before, basically treated the younger coaches
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: in Tampa is you're gonna work year round. I loved it.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: And then the other thing it did is I was
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: a twenty seven or twenty eight year old that had
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: never played in the big leagues. But I'm in a
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: situation where all the guys that are Yankee, like greats
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: Now Hall of Famers that lived in Tampa, Tino Martinez,
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Derek Jeter, Joe Girardi, Jorge Posada. They lived in Tampa.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: Strawberry lived here, Cecil Fielder lived in Orlando. So I
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: was there with that group players and by no means
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: was I doing any coaching, But I was sitting there
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: basically through osmosis listening. I had a conversation earlier in
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: the year with Mike Lole, who was an original Yankee
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: draft and then traded to the Marlins, and he said,
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: do you remember I came in every day for you know,
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: sixty straight days and spent it with Gary denbol He's like,
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: you were there just putting the ball on the tee,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: and I was, But I was also learning what Mike
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: Lole was doing to be it was a transition for
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: him being a major leaguer. The ability to do that
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: in just environmentally being able to be there was so
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: important in my career. And then it also, you know,
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: very honestly taught me win and when to talk win
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: and when not to talk. And I think that's kind
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: of a learned thing because the young people in today's
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: game they want to get to the higher position really quick.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: And there was a couple of times where I did
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: talk and then I was told later like, this is
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: probably a time for you for you not to talk.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: So I think the ability to be around those plays
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: early on was extremely impactful. The game has completely changed, though,
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: and that and I have talked about this previously. The
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: biggest learning experience I had as a major league manager
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: is I am a list. I like to make lists.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: I will make a list of what I have to
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: do in the day, and what I found out very
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: quickly when you're leading a major league team, that list
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: gets blown up very very quickly in the day because
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: a trainer could walk in, a strength and conditioning guy
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: could walk in, one of your coaches could walk in,
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: a player could walk in, members of the R and
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: D staff or the front office staff could walk in,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: and it changes the whole course of what's going on.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: And I think in today's professional sports, the ability to
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: break down your day, the ability to adjust, the ability
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: to take in information is so much greater than it
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: has been in the past. Because when I got to
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: the big leagues, there were six coaches. Now there's upwards
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: of fifteen or sixteen. There's a performance director, there's three trainers,
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: there's two strength and conditioning coaches. There's so many things
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: going on. A dietitian that's coming in and saying like, hey,
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: this guy's not following their meal plan, and you have
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: to have those conversations. That is how the game has
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: changed in my mind.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Shelty. One thing I've always viewed it is I
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: think our jobs are so much more like an emergency room,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: and we have to be doctors, and we can't have
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: best laid plans for the day. And if we're doing
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: our jobs to the best of our ability, we can
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: like do an emergency surgery or we can just you know,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: sew up a little stitch on a kid's knee. But
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: it's everything in between, you know, like we have to
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: be able to do all these different things. We have
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: to be extremely versatile. Take take the listener into a
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: day in the life, like when did you show up
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: as a manager, what were the types of conversations you
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: aspired to have during the course of the day, and
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: ultimately how did that day typically unfold?
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: Well, when during the time in Pittsburgh, because I actually
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: still live in Saint Pete and I have a fifteen
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: year old that's home. My wife wasn't there except for
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: in the summer. I spent a lot of time at
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: the ballpark, and I found myself after years one and two.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: Now I start during COVID, so there were very strict
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: guidelines on when you could be at the ballpark and
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: when you could not be in the ballpark. But probably
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: after year two, I would get to the ballpark between
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: ten and eleven every morning and sit and basically have
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: a cup of coffee. It was one of the few
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: times during the day that my door was actually closed,
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: because I wanted to have that you know, cliched open
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: door policy where people could come in and out. But
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: if you close it at that point during the day,
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: you could get a ton of work done, whether it's
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: you know, making personal calls or catching up with people,
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: or just getting prepared for an upcoming series or knocking
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: things off the to do list. Because what I thought,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: my view of it is at twelve or twelve thirty,
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: when the staff started to come in, you wanted to
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: be able to have your door back open. You wanted
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: to be able to have conversations. There may be people
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: that come in early, specifically to have conversations with you
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: about topics the previous game, what we're going to do
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: moving forward. So I would go from ten thirty to
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: noon and keep my door closed, and then at noon
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: I would open it up and the conversations would start.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: Usually there were conversations amongst the coaches that would come
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: in early to work out or the performance group based
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: on health of the upcoming day or the upcoming series
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: and how we were going to plan it out. By
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: two o'clock, you had players in the building. And I think,
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: especially now because the one transition, like Ryan has talked about,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: the food is so good in major league clubhouses that
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: players will come in to eat and play. And major
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: league clubhouses are so nice now guys are coming in,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: whether it's for the sanctuary to eat, to get away
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: from their family and kids at times, for just relaxing.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: I mean there's relaxation rooms, there's sleep rooms. I mean
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: that you and I were with Nelson Cruz, who slept
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: more than any human being I've ever been around. So
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: by two o'clock it's that, and then you start your
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: media obligations, whether it's you know, a national show, an
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: XIM show that happens a week, or you're meeting with
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: the beat writers, or you're meeting with you know, doing
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: a radio show. There's so many media obligations, especially on
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: the baseball side, and then once you get into three
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: point fifteen and beyond, you're getting into a situation where
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: there's early work going on. There's work in the cages.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: One of the things that I kind of learned from
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: my days coaching and other managers I work for is
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: I try to stay out of coaches areas. You know,
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: I think it's a time where they should be able
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: to coach. They should be able to teach. Players do
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: not want the manager standing there while they're doing it.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: There's a whole different vibe when the manager steps in
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: the room because he's the person that's making the ultimate decision.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: But if we were out on the field, I wanted
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: to be out on the field for two reasons. Number One,
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: you get out of a you know, an office that's internal,
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: so you're outside, you're getting that fresh air. And then
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: number two, there's other people around. Whether you're talking to
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: your bullpen catchers, you're talking to your coaches, you're talking
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: to analysts that are on the field. But it gives
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: you time to be able to have those conversations, and
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: then you get into VP, you get into a pregame
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: situation where you're doing your script of how you're going
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: to pitch that night, and there's usually that's the time
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: I would spend thirty thirty to forty minutes with ben
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: Cherrington our GM and kind of work through there. And
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: then actually, the best part of the day, and I'm
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: sorry this is the long winded answered, is six forty
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: when the game starts. That's when everybody else goes away
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: and you get to do the fun thing. That's the
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: sanctuary of you know. The thirty to are the three
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: to three and a half hours of hey, we're just
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: doing the game. Now. You do have fans that could
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: be critical and they can think that we could yell
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: at and you're dealing with a lot of other factors,
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: but the six forty to the end of the game
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: was usually the best part of the day.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Chilty, how did you build out your coaching staff
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: and how did you doing the roles along the way,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: especially as the bench coach in Minnesota impact delegation. I
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: think that's one of the biggest challenges for any first
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: time general manager, head coach manager is delegating at times.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: You know, some of the veteran guys are more comfortable
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: with that and learn some of us, especially who came up,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: I think like the three of us did where we
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: kind of grinded and climbed the ladder, are used to
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: doing a lot ourselves. How did you kind of balance
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: that and what are some of the things you learn
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: as you reflect back on your time in Pittsburgh that
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: you did well and maybe a few things that, if any,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: that you would do differently if you get another opportunity
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: to manage.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think in terms of the staff, and this
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: is a really important one for me. We built our
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: staff in Pittsburgh in twenty twenty very development based, and
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: we were going through a significant rebuild in Pittsburgh, and
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: I think the conversation that Ben and I had was
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: we have to have people that have spent a ton
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: of time in the minor leagues because we're going to
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: be dealing with younger players and we're going to be
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: dealing with a lot of teaching and coaching. And I
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: do think that was really important at the time. The
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: reflection of that going back to it is in hopefully
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: getting another chance to do this moving forward, realizing that
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: probably needed more major league playing and coaching experience on
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: a staff and being able to separate that. And why
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: I saw that as important is our team started to
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: change and we started to get different skill sets of players.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: I really feel that having that diversity of your staff,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: and it's not just cultural diversity, which is extremely important
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: in terms of relating to players and having conversations with
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: players and understanding what players have gone through. I think
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: that's critical when building out a staff, But the ability
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: to have previous experience at that level, I think is
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: something that really stands out in terms of the delegation.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: I was really fortunate the year that I spent with
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: rockaball Delhi when he was a first time manager. There
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: was a lot of delegation there, and I think one
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: of the things that I learned was if you can
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: take as much off the manager's plate on a daily
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: basis being the bench coach, it's better for the manager
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: because we highlighted what's going on in the manager's day,
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: and as many things as I could take off Rocco
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: or Paul Maltors in that in that case, as much
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: as I could take off their plate, they could focus
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: on other things because I never got the full scope
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: of the conversation that they were having with Derek Falvey,
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: who was a president or that who was the GM,
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: because I shouldn't. I'm not the manager. I'm the person
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: that's helped helping, you know, kind of supplement that. And
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: it's one of the things I tried to do with
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: my staff is I tried to push as much responsibility
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: to them as possible to kind of ease the burden
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: of what was going to go through my day to day.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: It's exceptional, you know. I was blessed in my career
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: one time to meet a chief of staff for Barack
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Obama and he said exactly what you just said, Shelty,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: that his role, he felt, was taking all the moderate
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: to lesser things off the president's plate so they could
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: focus their time when the biggest decisions they have to make.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: And if they believe that you're doing that as professionally
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: and exactly the way they'd want it done, and they
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: can totally delegate and empower you to do that, it's
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: very fulfilling to you. But it also liberates them to
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: do what the job demands, because, as you point out
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: earlier and the listeners. You know, I personally think the
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: major league manager position is the most demanding job in
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: all of Major League Baseball. You guys have to talk
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: to the media twice a day. That's a lot more
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: than the President of the United States is talking to
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: the media. You also have to service Now these extremely
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: large coaching staffs, you're supposed to be developing them. You're
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: developing the performance staff, you're developing the twenty six man
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: player group in the room. And oh, by the way,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: you strategically have to prepare for that night's game and
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: do everything that's required there. They are things that are
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: left on the cutting room floor. But one thing I
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: want to focus on with you, and this is something
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: you said at your opening press conference when you took
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: the job with Pittsburgh, is you wanted to have fun
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: and you are a person who uplifts rooms. You're a
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: culture creator. How did you instill that in the room
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh when you join that franchise?
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I said that. I mean, you wait along for
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: position of that level that you want to make sure
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: that you have fun in doing it. And that's about
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: the players. Now. The turn that we took in that
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: regard was COVID was the first year, and you know,
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: COVID took a lot of fun out of a lot
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: of things. But the main thing that I feel COVID
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: took fun out of that first year was just the
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: ability to be with people. And because we had to
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: separate so it was kind of twofold is you could
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: only be with certain people. We tried to make it
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: that year in Pittsburgh and it was in the i
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: mean the guts of our rebuild. We had torn everything down.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: We tried to do as much as a group as
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: possible because it was really the only people you could
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: hang out with. So when we went to hotels, we
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: tried to do trivia stuff or have game rooms, or
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: have get togethers because you couldn't go out in the city.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, going out to dinner in Chicago is a
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: great thing. When during COVID we could not go out.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: You could not be in a situation you were doing that.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: So we tried to do as many player and staff
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: functions as possible, and then on top of it, as
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: many staff function as possible, just to build the camaraderie
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: as a staff. A lot of fun though honestly comes
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: from winning, and we were challenged with that in Pittsburgh
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: a little bit because of the rebuilds we were going through.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: So I think the consistency of how you walk into
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: the room every day is really important and that allows
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: you to have fun. It's also the biggest challenge when
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: you go through a situation like we went through in
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: Pittsburgh because of the fact that we just did not
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: win as much as we wanted to.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Shelty, there are very few athletes who live up to
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: the hype they get as teenagers. Lebron James comes to mind,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: as does Tiger Woods coming out of LSU. Paul Skeen's
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: had a lot of hype around him. You had the
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: chance to manage him as a rookie and then early
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: in his career. What do you think makes him so special?
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: He is the cy young favorite in the National League.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: We'll see how the voting goes. And also, as a
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: secondary part of that question, do you think you could
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: help us get Libby done on the podcast.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: We're looking to bring in.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: A younger demographic and I think having her on would
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: really spike our listener numbers.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the second part of that, I'm sorry, I
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: don't think I can help you In that regard the
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: first part, I think the answer is kind of multi leveled.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: Number one, Paul was raised really well. If you spend
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: any time around his mom and dad, you see the
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: character of who he is as a human being. The
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: second ponent component of that is he went to the
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: Air Force Academy for two years. In the guy that's
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: the head coach of the Air Force Academy, Mike Kazlowski,
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: is a wonderful human being. I've known him since I
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: was five years old. His dad and I. His dad
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: and my dad taught in the same conference growing up
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: in high school. But I think a lot of Paul's
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: discipline comes from how he was raised and then going
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: to the Air Force Academy and then having a coach
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: that basically sat down and was like, you need to
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: leave here, you need to get out of here because
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: of how talented you are. And then he was fortunate
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: he got to LSU with a gentleman that dad and
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: I both know, Well, that's the head coach at It's Georgia.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: Now Wes Johnson, who was the pitching coach in Minnesota
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: with Thad and I. That is probably one of the
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: best pitching minds I've ever been around, and when talking
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: to Wes before we drafted him, when he started to
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: tell me about the conversations he was having with Paul
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: in the complexity of him for a twenty year old
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: college junior, you realize that his mind works differently. And
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: not only does his mind work differently, but the ability
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: to stay with the routine, the ability to have the
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: work ethic that he has that it's been instilled in
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: him and be disciplined in it. I mean for a
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: first year player, rookie player, and a second year player
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: in Major League Baseball, he never varies from what he's doing.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: And then lastly, a lot of players never get to
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: this point. But his ability to manipulate the baseball, and
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: I'm by that is you can hand him a baseball
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: in telling him not I would not tell him, but
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: the pitching people tell him like, you need to put
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: pressure in this place, so you need to change the
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: ability to go on the horseshoe this way. And then
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: the action that he was able to get off, that
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: he's being able to create pitches at such a young
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: age that some players don't get into ever if not
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: later in their career. Just by his ability to manipulate
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: the ball. So all those factors go into the fact
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: of why he is so talented and he is he's
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: the best pitcher in baseball. He's doing things that are historic.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: But I really feel that his ability to stay with
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: his routine that was instilled not only growing up but
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: through his formative years are what make him special.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Chelsea's staying on the theme of freakish talent. O'Neil Cruz,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: can you take us behind the scenes of you guys
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: make the call that you're going to shift him from
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: shortstop to centerfield? What goes into that decision and how
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: do you communicate that to O'Neal and how did you
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: receive that?
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: Well, there was a lot of thought to it. This
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: was not something that was a fly by night conversation,
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: like we did not decide on a Sunday afternoon, Hey,
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: we think we should move him to center field. We
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: put a lot of time in it, We put a
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: lot of effort into it. Now, we put a lot
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: of effort into the ability to stay at shortstop because
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: I think, as we all know, the premium value of
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: staying at shortstop in midjor league baseball kind of supersedes
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: everything because you have a sort if you have an
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: offensive player that's a shortstop, the value goes through the roough.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: So we put a lot of hard work in and
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: to O'Neil's credit, he did the work. He got better
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: at shortstop. We didn't think collectively as an organization that
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: it was ultimately the position he was going to play
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: long term. He had had this significant injury. We waited
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: probably about a month and a half before we actually
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: made the decision. Before we made the decision, we outlined
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: the complete plan of what we were going to do,
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: who was going to implement it, how we were going
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: to do the work, and so we then we sat
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: down with him to have the discussion. We felt it
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: was important to have that decision made so we could
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: do at least a month in the big leagues. It
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: wasn't a winter ball situation. It was a situation he
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: was monitored. It was a situation not only where he
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: was monitored with the ability with our coaches, but also
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: with the technology with having hawkeye data, so we could
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: track what is jumps, what his reads were. We wouldn't
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: be able to do that in winter ball. And then
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: we sat down and had the conversation postgame with O'Neil,
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: and we did it through an interpreter. We did it
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: through another Dominican coach that was in the room as
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: a support system for O'Neil, because we knew he was
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: not going to be happy with this. Everybody that did
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: play shortstop wants to stay at shortstop. It was part
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: of his identity in terms of how he received it.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: He received it professionally, but very quietly. He was not
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: pleased with it. We did give him a little bit
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: of time after that to kind of adjust to it.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: And I would not say it was a situation where
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: he any means pouted, because he did not, but he
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: internalized it and he was affected by it, and I
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: think he was hurt by it. And then ultimately, after
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: a few days, we got into a situation where we
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: put in a plan of work and how we were
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: going to go about it, and then kind of transitioned
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: into that.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: You know, not all these conversations go as well as that.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I remember a conversation that John Daniels and I had
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: with Nelson Cruz in which John said, Hey, do you
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: think he maybe should start pitching? The hitting thing doesn't
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: seem to be working out for you. I think Nelson
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: said curse words and then proceeded to hit close to
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: five hundred home runs, and so the jury still out
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: as to whether he would have been a better pitcher.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: But he did okay as a hitter, Yes he did,
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: Yes he did. That was a wise decision on his part. Chelta.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: I've always felt these jobs as a head coach, manager,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: general manager, it's almost like you're running on a treadmill
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: at eleven or twelve miles per hour. You're just constantly
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: going trying not to get ejected. I think you and
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: I had similar pass where I was gam of the
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Suns for about five plus years and then got fired
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: at an unusual time in preseason. The season was just
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: about to start in the twenty eighteen nineteen NBA calendar,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: and to me, it felt like somebody just kind of
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: pulled the plug out of the treadmill and you were
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: flying and it stopped. So if you would take us
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: and our listeners inside, you know, people know obviously about
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: your time in Pittsburgh and that it ended in early
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: May after thirty eight games. What have you been doing
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: since then? How did it go immediately after? And then
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: you know, did you take some time to kind of
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: recover and refresh your battery.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: So to speak.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: And then what have you been doing over the past
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: couple of months now that you know you're on that
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: treadmill for so long and then it stopped pretty quickly.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: What's that process been like for you?
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think initially I would I it's not a relief.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: I mean when you're in it every day. And we
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: got off to a we got off to a really
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: challenging start to shear in the first month and a
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: half and we were in a seven game losing streak.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: When when I was fired it, I mean, honestly, last
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: year of a contract in year six. I kind of
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: felt that it was coming. When when Ben walked into
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: my office, I you know, I was like, I'm very
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: aware of why you're here. I've been in this game
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: a long time. What I did the first part of
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: it was sleep. I mean I had not been sleeping
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: very well. We had not been playing very well. So
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: I slept for about two or three days and probably
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: as well as I've slept in a while. And then
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: I spent some time with my family. Like I said,
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: I have a twenty five year old, I have a
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: twenty one year old, and then I have a fifteen
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: year old. In my fifteen year old, I think it's
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: sad knows is a club volleyball player. So I became
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: a club volleyball dad and went to tournaments, and it's
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: so funny. The first tournament I went to, I ran
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: into Brandon Hyde who had been fired the manager of
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: the Oorls had been who had been fired like two
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: weeks earlier. So I was able to spend a lot
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: of time with Gianna and doing that, and that was obvious.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: That was honestly refreshing in a way. That was interesting
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: because with my two older kids, I was working in
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Tampa when they were younger, and when you work in Tampa,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: I was able to actually see things. In Gionna's point,
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: I was not able to see these things. I didn't
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: know anything about volleyball. So I turned into making fun
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: of the volleyball dads that stand on the sideline and
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: get mad to being the volleyball dad. I was actually
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: doing that last night in a game, being that person.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: And then I had the opportunity, which was unique, to
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: get in a little bit to the media side of it.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: XM Radio called me and asked me if I'd want
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: to do a fill in situation on their XIM shows.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: So I've done some stuff on the leadoff Spot with
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Steve Phillips, which is half radio, half TV. I've been
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: on Loud Outs in the afternoon probably three mainly three
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: times a week. I've done some TBS pre and postgame.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: I went to the MLB Network and did some stuff,
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: and that was really challenging because you have to And
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: the thing I've enjoyed about it is when you're working
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: specifically for an organization, you're focused on that organization or
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: the organization that you're preparing for. Now I'm objectively looking
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: at every organization I'm having to prepare. I've actually hosted
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: a few times, which has probably been as nervous as
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: I've been because you have to go in and out
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: of breaks, you have to do reads, you have to
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: do all these things. It's been a new challenge for
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: me and a challenge for me to basically, I think,
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: kind of renewed my vigor for the game and my
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: love for the game. And then you take all that
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: on top of talking to people you trust in respect
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: and leadership roles about the reflection of what I did wrong,
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: what I did poorly. I'm not so much focused on
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: what went well. I don't think you need to do that,
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: but I focused on how I can become a better
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: leader and why I need to become a better leader. Shelsey.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: One of the things you kind of glossed over there
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: was the fact that I think most people watch movies
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: about how these things go down and it's contentious and
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: there's chairs thrones and you're given a box and you're
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: escorted out of the building and you're humiliated. That's not
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: really how these things go to You're you're still friends
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: with Ben Sherrington and could you just like take us
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: inside what what was that last conversation like and kind
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: of disavow the listeners of this notion that it's not
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: always the way Hollywood portrays it.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: No, it's not like you get the box and you
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: have like the you know, your high school basketball trophy
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: in it, and you know you're in you're stapler, Yeah,
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: you're stapler. Like I am going to say, I had
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: a really cool office that was I mean that I
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: think you know me well enough. I had a lot
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: of pearl jam stuff. I mean I had a keg,
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: I had a heavy bourbon area. So I had a
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: lot of stuff that I still don't have that I
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: need to get. But yeah, I mean I think to
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: Ryan's last question, I mean I kind of knew I
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: was getting fired. It was an off day and usually
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: when that's happened, and basically what I did it was,
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: it was it was an off day and I went
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: to the office early, and then Ben texted me and said, hey,
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: could you think about coming in because he was there.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: I was like, I'm downstairs, so you know, he he
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: walked in, and I think how it went down. He
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: walked in. I had my computer open. He's like, hey,
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: can you shut that? And he kind of looked at
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: me and I said to him, like I know. I
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: was like I know, and you know, he's like, I'm sorry.
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: You know, we were in this together and this happens,
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: and like I told him at that point, I mean,
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: we shared some other personal things which I will not
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: get into, but I did say to him, like Ben,
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: we were friends long before this. I mean, he offered
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: me a job when I got fired from the then Indians,
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: when he was the farm director in Boston. He offered
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: me a minor league job before I went to Tampa
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: and then I worked with him in Toronto and I
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: have since talked to him multiple times this year. I
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: mean he you know, the first three weeks, four weeks,
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: he texted me once a week, just checking in on
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: me to see how he's doing. He's my friend, he
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: will he will always be my friend. I shared five
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: years in a leadership role with him where he and
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: I were probably the only two people that understood ninety
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: percent of the challenges that was going on in Pittsburgh.
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: It's not anything that's contentious. It will never be. I
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: mean maybe in certain situations it is if you don't
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: like your boss. But I liked Ben then He's been
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: a large part of my life. He helped me become
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: a better leader. He challenged me on things that I
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: did not do well. I don't think there's very many
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: people that can challenge managers in situations of what they're
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: doing and how they're going about it on a daily basis.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: So the respect I have for him will will not
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: go away. But in no way is it contentious. I
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: mean I still talk to him. As I touched on,
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: I mean he had texted me. I think as we
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: go through this next hiring cycle, he will be someone
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: that I will lean on. He's someone that's seen me
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: in that role. He will have the ability to talk
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: to other leaders, other general manager, other president of baseball
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: ops about, you know, hopefully the things that I did
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: well and the things that he appreciated by me as
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: a major league manager, and then also guidelines of what
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: can make me better in that space, because everyone knows
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: when you have a job, the next version of yourself
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: should be a better version if you look at it honestly,
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: if you step back and reflect of the things that
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: went well, and I know there's some things that I
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: definitely need to improve on, and he's probably going to
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: be No, he's not. Probably he is the person that's
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: going to be able to give me the most clear cut, refreshing,
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: honest feedback in that regard.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: You know, Sheltery, One thing I've always acknowledged is these roles.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: You know, when you look at Fortune five hundred companies,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: they tend to have advisory boards or boarder directors to
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: help guide and hold you know, executives accountable. We don't
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: have that in professional sports.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: Who did you.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Lean into and is that something you'd want to do
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: differently the next time? Is have a little bit of
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: an inner circle, somebody maybe outside the clubhouse, who you
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: could bounce ideas off of, so that you could have
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: that sounding board that maybe isn't somebody in the same
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: uniform with you, that you could give you some real
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: honest feedback and help you develop through your next phase
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: of your career.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: I think that's really important, and I do believe strongly
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: in this. I think we miss in baseball. I think
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: we miss in professional sports, especially North American professional sports. Now,
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: if you look at the Premier League, there's a lot
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: of teams that run basically a position that's not the
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: head coach or as the manager as they call it,
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: but someone that's actually sat in that chair that is
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: a sounding board for that person. In that regard, it's
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: someone that does not want that person's job, but is
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: there kind of as a mentor. Because honestly, no one
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: knows what you go through. No one knew what Ryan
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: went through or Ted you went through sitting in that chair.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: Until you go through it. You can think. I thought
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: when I was a bench coach, I was the most
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: prepared bench coach ever to manage. I wasn't even close
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: to being prepared for what you go through on a
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: daily basis. So I think we miss in professional sports
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: in that regard of not putting someone on the payroll
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: that's there is you know, that person could not only
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: be a mentor to the major league manager, but to
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: all managers throughout the system, but someone that the manager
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: could kind of lean on. And what ends up happening
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: in professional sports or in Major League Baseball, is you
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: lean on other managers in the game. I talked to
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: Aj Hinch a lot. I mean, you know, the playoffs
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: are in progress, and I talked to Aj probably once
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: a week, not in any way mentoring Aj, just his
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: ability to have conversations. He's my friend. I talked to
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: Roco a lot during the season because he was someone
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: I was with and understand. So I think you end
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: up talking to people that you think have similar mindsets
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: to you in terms of what you're doing and how
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: you're going about it, and then you also develop relationships
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: with other people. Dave Roberts is someone that has become,
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: you know, a pseudo mentor to me. He's been through
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: a lot more different things than I have. I mean,
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: we're in similar in age, but we have definitely different
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: backgrounds in terms of he was a really good major
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: league player. He's managed the best team in baseball. But
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: just different mindsets in terms of what you're doing. The
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: ability to lead, how you go about things, I think
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: is really important. If you're going to improve as a leader,
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: you have to be able to be able to you
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: have to be able to get information from someone, and
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: you have to be able to take that information and
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: listen to it. And I really think it's something that
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: in professional sports we don't do as well. I mean,
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: we are a fortune five hundred business. It's a billion
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: dollar business. Every team is valuation in anywhere from what's
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: seven hundred and fifty million dollars to whatever the Yankees
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: are valued at. But we don't treat the coaching aspect
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: of that. We don't treat the front office aspect of that.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: In any ways. I think, going back to Ryan's question
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: earlier about progressive organizations, the Rays did it better than
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: anybody I've ever been around. When Andrew Friedman ranam with
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: I mean it was Andrew Friedman and Eric Neander and
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: Heim Bloom and James Click and Peter Bendix was an
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: intern at that point and Joe was running it. But
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: the situation was and the way Stu Sternberg ran it
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: was like, you guys are basically going to have conversations
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: and take your egos out of it because we want
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: to put the best product on the field every day,
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: and I think there's very few situations. I think we
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: started to touch on that a little bit in Minnesota
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: when I was there with the group we have, But
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: you have to check your ego at the door if
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: you're going to do that, and there's not enough leadership
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: groups in professional baseball in my opinion, that have those
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: kind of groups that your ability to do that with.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: It's been a problem on this pod as well, Shelty
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: with that not checking the dego at the door. We've
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: had a number of conversations offline about it. Just wants
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: all the attention and all the credit now and serious.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: On a more serious note, the last question I have
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: for you is you're in a unique position at this
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: very moment. We're recording this show calendars about the flip
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: from September into October, which means playoff baseball. I'm going
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: to ask you to look at the league from thirty
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: thousand feet. Now that we know the playoff field, which
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: teams do you like, which groups do you think you're
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: poise for a long run, maybe into the World Series
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: or to win the World Series? And are there any
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: specific players you have your eyes on as guys you
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: think could be standout performers in this postseason.
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's a great question, and I think objective.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: My objectivity has really kind of heightened with the fact
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: that I have been doing some radio stuff and you
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: have to change. The Yankees are playing the best baseball
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: of anybody going into this. I think they have the
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: benefit of being in the wild card situation. I think
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: the Dodgers also have the benefit of being in the
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: wild card situation because Otani needs to pitch. It's really important.
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: The Mariners pitching is very interesting to me and I've
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: kind of been on the Mariners for about a month
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: and a half because they have four or five pitchers
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: that if they get hot, they have the best pitching
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: group in baseball. And then the last team is the
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: fit with Suarez and Sanchez at the top. I think
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: Rob Thompson is one of the best managers in the
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: game with the way he handles his club, and then
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: the fact that Trey Turner played the last day of
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: the season in his back, their offense has the ability
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: to score runs, and if you get into Citizens Bank Ballpark,
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: it's a whole different environment. So I think it's truly
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: one of the home field advantages. Chelsea, Well, I.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Have one last question. I want to make one last
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: point before I make that last question, Ryan, I think
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: a little bit different than basketball, where it seems as
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: if a lot of veteran coaches get multiple chances, second,
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: third chances, major League Baseball, there are a lot of
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: first time managers out there, and for a variety of reasons.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: You know, sometimes general managers are trying to find the
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: next superstar guy. But I will say, like everything we
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: talked about in the show today, it just points to
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: the benefit of experience, like each of us will be
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: better the next time we get an opportunity. There's so
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: much that you don't int paid in the role, despite
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: how much we think we're prepared for it. I think
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: the wisdom, the experience, the perspective is invaluable whether or
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: not we return to the pinnacle positions that we we
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: formally had, or if we're advising people in those pinnacle positions.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: I think we bring that experience and wisdom there and
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: I know Shelter would do that as well. Shelty, I
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: want to just shift your tension. Same question that Ryan
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: just asked, but from a managerial perspective. I don't want
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: you to rate the managers in the postseason, but I
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: wanted you to just maybe highlight one or two for
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: the listeners who were guys that you genuinely believe enhance
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: their team's chances to win. To who are the difference makers?
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: Who are the guys that when you were playing the
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: other team you're like, oh, man, I'm going to have
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: to be really sharp tonight because I know this guy's
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: going to make some moves on the margins to help
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: their team win.
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's an unbelievable question, Dad, Well, I
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: mean I think the first place. Yeah, your face, I
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: let you ask you good questions. I'm sorry, Ryan, I apologize.
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: There's the ego thing.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: There's the media clip of the week.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: We didn't have to wait longer to come through, Shelty,
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: you know, pumping in the background over here.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Rare it's I think you highlight a little bit of
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: what what Tito has done in Cincinnati. The stabilization there
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: I think is really important. Uh, to the group having
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: been there, done that, that is definitely important. I don't
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: know if they have the depth though in terms of
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: to play. I think the managers that you're gonna see,
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: you know, Rob Thompson again stands out to me. Boonie
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: stands out to me, having been there, done that. Dave
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: Roberts stands out to me, done that. And where it
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: really becomes the aspect of managing is it's your bullpen.
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: It's managing what you're going to do in the fifth
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: and sixth inning. And I think we saw a J.
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: Hinch do a masterful job last year from August first
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: on the way he managed a bullpen. And I know
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: that the Tigers struggled going into the playoffs this year,
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: but having to make manage that fifth and sixth inning,
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: I think where it really stands out. And it's not
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: only making the move, but it's anticipating the move that's
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: going to be made on the other side of it
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: is probably the more important thing. And there's certain times
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: that managers, you know, make moves to try to get
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: the other manager to make moves, and it's almost the fact,
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: and I know this is going to sound strange, it's
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: the manager that's patient that doesn't make the move, that's like,
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: all right, you want to make that move, but I'm
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: playing chess with you for the move that's going to
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: happen in the seventh inning, and I may give up
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: an out in this situation because I'm going to run
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: myself back into a better situation later in the game.
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: And I think as we watch these playoff games, there's
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: gonna be times that we're like, why is this guy
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: not doing something? And then we see that guy come
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: to the plate later in games and you're like, Wow,
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: that was a really good move. And we don't we
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: don't highlight and talk about those moves enough because we
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: want to instantly as a society, especially in social media
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: the days, we want to instantly be critical of the
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: first move that was not made, thinking that, all right,
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: there could be a move made later on that will
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: ultimately help us win the game.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: He is Derek Shelton. Look for him in a Major
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: League Baseball dugout sometime soon, maybe even soon, Or look
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: for him if you're a high school volleyball tournament, especially
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: down in Florida. I'll probably be going nuts on the
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: sideline for Derek Shelton. Four Thad Levine.
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: I am Ryan McDonough.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us. Join us next week in every
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: week right here on Rosters the Rings.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: Please join me host that Levine, Ryan McDonough and other
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: general managers every week for Roster Syrings on Apple, Spotify,
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts