Latest / The Starfish Storytellers / Season 4, Episode 9: Project Manager Stories – Narrative Tools for Leading with Clarity and Purpose with Phillip Henry

Transcript

Season 4, Episode 9: Project Manager Stories – Narrative Tools for Leading with Clarity and Purpose with Phillip Henry · The Starfish Storytellers

0:00
Welcome to the starfish storytellers the podcast
0:03
that makes a difference one story at a time by
0:05
bringing storytelling to life So about ten years
0:18
ago I was hired by a particular company to be
0:21
a replacement project manager for one of their
0:23
projects The project was not too far along, just
0:27
about a month or so started before I would have
0:29
gotten there. And my boss at the time, she told
0:33
me, the main stakeholder, she told me, take the
0:38
existing time that's been, that's progressed,
0:41
figure out how long this project is going to
0:43
take. And then, but we need this done by the
0:48
end of the year. So it was... using the Agile
0:52
methodology, but within a timeline. So, okay,
0:56
not completely unheard of in my particular field.
1:00
So, I took the existing information that we had,
1:04
figured out how long it was going to take, figured
1:05
out that we could bring this project in by the
1:09
end of the year, and we just started performing.
1:12
And the team that I had to work with was extremely
1:15
talented, very, very gifted in terms of, it was
1:18
a software project, so in terms of development,
1:21
quality assurance, etc. And of course, naturally,
1:25
this wasn't the only thing that happened in this
1:26
business with this company. There were things
1:28
that were happening around us at all times, things
1:30
with infrastructure, things with finance, etc.
1:33
So one particular weekend in August, there had
1:36
been emails about different projects and things
1:39
just like had been going on for several weekends
1:41
about updates and various other things that were
1:44
going to happen this particular weekend. I hadn't
1:47
paid any particular attention to them because
1:49
nothing had happened in the past. So I left on
1:52
Friday with the project being in a good place
1:55
and not expecting that Monday was going to be
1:59
any different. Came back in on Monday, everybody
2:03
was at their desks looking very frantic, looking
2:06
very forlorn. I walked into my team space and
2:10
there was a couple of my team members there and
2:12
I asked what was going on. And they said, The
2:16
data center's down. And I kind of leaned in a
2:19
little bit and asked, well, what does that mean?
2:23
The data center's down. Are there servers? Are
2:24
they coming back up? No, the servers are down.
2:29
OK, so what's happening with them? Are they being
2:31
rebooted? No, they're dead. The data center is
2:35
dead. So at that point, it really hit me because...
2:40
All of the projects and all of the other operations
2:43
things that were happening with this company
2:45
all relied on the data center. Suddenly we were
2:48
completely without one. This was September? August?
2:53
I can't remember. Late August, early September
2:55
when this happened. Suddenly we didn't have a
3:00
place to store our work and that deadline of
3:03
December was not going away. That's one of the
3:06
things that I've learned about in this particular
3:08
field. Deadlines are unforgiving. So we immediately,
3:13
with me and the existing project team members
3:16
that were there, we started to collaborate and
3:19
figure out what to do next. We didn't try to
3:21
solve the overarching problem of how to get into
3:24
December. We did try to figure out what was the
3:28
next immediate thing that we could do. So as
3:30
more folks came in on that Monday morning, we
3:33
rallied around and we figured out a strategy
3:35
of... Basically, what we were going to do was
3:38
we were going to work with all of our laptops
3:39
and save all of our information, what we were
3:42
doing, testing, developing, et cetera, until
3:45
the data center came back up. Now with that,
3:49
because we had figured out, the team and I had
3:52
figured out where we were in terms of progress
3:55
and measured that out to where we were going
3:57
to deliver in December, we knew exactly how much
4:00
time that we had to play with because the team
4:03
was very talented. we'd actually built in a little
4:05
bit of buffer. So we knew exactly how much time
4:09
that we had to play with before we could no longer
4:12
deliver by December. So we used that time to
4:16
continue to develop and I was working with the
4:19
other project managers for their various project
4:21
teams to try to coordinate kind of a universal
4:25
generic calendar where we needed to have further
4:27
testing and other things that were done for resources
4:30
and part of the data center that we all needed
4:32
to use. We got to the precipice of not being
4:35
able to deliver in December. So we were giving,
4:40
I was giving a particular status message or status
4:43
meeting and I created basically a kind of a confidence
4:48
level that yes we're going to be able to deliver,
4:51
no we're not going to be able to deliver. And
4:53
that was the first meeting where I let them know
4:56
unless this thing was fixed by Tuesday of next
4:59
week, we're not going to be able to deliver by
5:01
December. and a lot of the other projects had
5:06
reported the same thing. So we left that weekend
5:09
and when we got back, I don't know what happened
5:11
over that weekend, but with everybody reporting
5:14
the similar things, something happened because
5:16
suddenly, magically, Monday afternoon when we
5:19
returned, the data center was back. So now we
5:22
needed to all coordinate what we were doing in
5:25
terms of our own development and testing and
5:27
everything that we needed to do. I needed to
5:29
coordinate with the other project managers how
5:30
to best use all of these resources. you know,
5:33
the communal resources, other testing environments,
5:36
and we were able to, all of the teams were able
5:40
to come together, they were able to develop and
5:43
deliver all of their projects, including mine,
5:46
by their deadlines. So, It required a lot of
6:00
team involvement, a lot of planning and coordination
6:04
with the other PMs, but it was a great learning
6:10
experience and a great experience in, you know,
6:13
one of the things I took away was at no particular
6:16
time did my team ever start to lean into laying
6:20
blame or pointing fingers. They just focused
6:24
on what they needed to do next, which I think
6:26
is the the best way, frankly the only way to
6:30
solve a problem. a MarCom and project management
6:55
firm headquartered on the east coast of the U
6:57
.S. in quaint colonial Bedford, Massachusetts.
7:00
I'm your host and passionate about storytelling.
7:02
I'm actually on a mission to raise up the next
7:04
generation of storytellers. We've named ourselves
7:07
the starfish storytellers after the starfish
7:09
story. The moral of the starfish story is based
7:12
on the power of one. No matter how big the challenge,
7:15
each action we take makes a difference and has
7:17
an impact. One step, one starfish, or one story
7:20
at a time. Every episode, we welcome a new storyteller
7:24
who will share their story meant to inspire and
7:26
connect with you. Then we'll break it down and
7:28
offer tips for any listeners who are ready to
7:30
tell their own stories. So thanks for tuning
7:32
in. Now let's get started. Today's episode is
7:36
Project Manager Stories, narrative tools for
7:38
leading with clarity and purpose. And who better
7:40
to unpack how storytelling is a secret superpower
7:43
for project managers than someone I collaborate
7:46
with every single day, my husband and our COO,
7:49
Philip Henry. He's a certified project management
7:52
professional, has led multi -million dollar projects,
7:56
transformed enterprise teams, and yes, he knows
7:58
how to wield a narrative like a pro. Welcome
8:01
back to the show. Thank you very much. I'm excited
8:04
to be here and not just because I'm ridiculously
8:07
crazy about the host. I love this topic. It's
8:10
what I do. I get very excited about organizing
8:12
and projects and things and hopefully A lot of
8:16
PMs out there will be able to see themselves
8:18
in what we're going to talk about today. Yeah.
8:20
Yeah, I think so. So as you know, we kick off
8:23
every episode with guest introduction, so I might
8:25
know you well, but maybe you could tell our listeners
8:28
a little bit more about yourself. A little bit
8:30
more about myself. OK. Well, so obviously, you
8:34
know who I am, but I'm Philip Henry. I am a project
8:38
manager, certified project management professional.
8:41
I've been involved in technology for about 20
8:43
years and I've been doing project management
8:45
for about 15 years. Most of my experience has
8:48
been in the software space, although I have had
8:51
some projects where I'm developing processes
8:53
and developing other things. I've worked in a
8:57
lot of different silos or a lot of different
9:00
business areas from retail to finance to software
9:03
to healthcare. And it is... Project management
9:08
is something that I I'll admit I guess kind of
9:10
fell into a little bit But I found that early
9:12
in my career I had the propensity to try to organize
9:15
things and time box things and figure out How
9:19
things were going how long things were going
9:21
to take and how things were related to other
9:23
things? So these were all skills that naturally
9:26
lent themselves very well to project management
9:29
So when I knit early in my career when I was
9:32
given some minor projects to manage they weren't
9:34
even called projects back then just do these
9:36
things. When I went to do these things, I found
9:40
that I was good at it and the people around me
9:41
recognized that I was good at it. So that's when
9:43
I started to lean into the thought that I could
9:46
be a project manager and took the steps after
9:49
that. And I've been doing it happily, not without
9:53
frustration, but happily over the last 15 years.
9:57
Wow. Well, I I can vouch for the time boxing.
10:08
I know that you're really good at it. Thank you.
10:14
So I appreciated your story. Was there with you
10:19
not in the office when it was happening, but
10:21
I was in your life when that whole thing happened
10:24
I remember you coming home and and being so stressed
10:27
out about this and I certainly didn't have the
10:30
same level of appreciation as to what it meant
10:32
but you know, it's it just shows it you know,
10:36
you had this team that worked with you and you
10:38
were able to manage that and not all projects
10:44
are gonna go well 100 % of the time, right? So
10:47
you had to deal with that. But we wanna talk
10:52
today about how storytelling ties into project
10:55
management. I know you and I had been out walking
10:57
the dogs one day and we were talking about it
11:00
and I thought it has to make for an easier way
11:07
of conveying information when you can tie it
11:10
back. to storytelling because I know that project
11:15
management, especially at the level, the enterprise
11:17
level where you work is a lot of data, a lot
11:22
of numbers, a lot of charts. But if there's a
11:25
way to sort of tie that back to story, I think
11:29
it probably connects teams even better. I would
11:31
imagine. Yeah, it does. It does. So storytelling
11:36
and project management, you know, project management.
11:40
There's a big part of the work that is just going
11:43
to remain the same, putting together timelines
11:46
and Gantt charts, taking care of budgets, managing
11:49
stakeholders, managing risks. Those things are
11:53
always going to remain the same. That's kind
11:55
of the core of project management. But when you
11:58
introduce the story part of it, what you're actually
12:01
doing is you're giving that particular project
12:04
a meaning. You're giving that particular project
12:06
a value. You're answering the questions. Why
12:09
are we doing this? So if you're working with
12:12
your stakeholder team and you are, I'm going
12:14
to use software as an example, because that's
12:17
where my foundation is. If you working with your
12:20
stakeholder teams and you're talking to them
12:23
and you're telling them, yeah, we're going to
12:25
upgrade this particular version of the CRM from
12:27
four to five. That tells them absolutely nothing
12:30
about what it is you're trying to do. But if
12:33
you couch that in a story and if you say something
12:35
like, we're going to be upgrading this version
12:38
of the customer relationship management software.
12:41
That's going to extend our support. It's going
12:43
to move us off of extended support. It's going
12:46
to give us all of these new features that one
12:48
of these new features we're going to be able
12:50
to use next year when this other particular system
12:54
is about to go offline. We'll be able to better
12:59
utilize that system that's no longer there and
13:02
take all of that data. If you can see, if you
13:05
can let other people see the value in what these
13:07
projects are going to do, they start to become
13:10
invested in it and they start to understand beyond
13:14
the ones and zeros, the black and white, the
13:16
Gantt charts with a hundred different tasks on
13:18
them. They start to understand the why behind
13:20
it. And that's really the, I'm going to say the
13:23
magic of where storytelling works with project
13:27
management. Right. I mean, it's, it's making
13:29
that connection. And I think we often talk about
13:31
you know, on this podcast about making the connection.
13:34
We talk about the emotional connection, but I
13:36
think your storytelling is also is connecting
13:39
the data in a way that I would have met humanizes
13:42
it, right? Yes, very much. Very much. It removes
13:45
it from being. Well, it removes it from being
13:47
static and antiseptic. And it when I say invest
13:51
it, you know, people are invested in it. Project
13:54
team stakeholders, the project manager, they
13:56
become invested in the emotion behind it, because
13:59
if you. From the storytellers point of view if
14:03
you want Your readers your participants in your
14:07
story to be invested That particular story has
14:10
to have an emotion has to have emotions associated
14:13
with it. So Otherwise, you know, we would all
14:16
be reading, you know, at home when we're trying
14:18
to relax, we would all read, you know, medical
14:20
charts and things that have no emotion to them
14:23
whatsoever, because those things go on forever.
14:26
But we want the emotion associated with stories,
14:28
sad, happy, fantastic, whatever. That emotion
14:32
is how people get invested. Yep. That's the connection
14:35
right there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So today's
14:39
episode, we're going to talk about storytelling
14:41
and storytelling is becoming essential for leadership
14:44
skills, especially for today's project managers.
14:47
So far beyond the Gantt charts and the spreadsheets,
14:49
which you work with every day, effective project
14:52
management hinges on the ability to communicate
14:55
vision, inspire teams, which is what you were
14:57
just saying, and navigate change with empathy
15:00
and clarity. For our listeners who are leading
15:04
maybe a marketing campaign, a software rollout,
15:07
or a community initiative, I know that this conversation
15:10
is going to equip them with some practical tools
15:12
on how to lead, you know, not just with timelines,
15:15
but with meaning. Exactly. Exactly. It's that
15:18
whole leading with meaning that will get, frankly
15:23
will, it's not going to make your projects move
15:25
any faster. It's not going to make them move
15:27
any smoother. But what it is going to do is it's
15:31
going to provide a sense of buy in a sense of
15:34
investment so that when you do run into those
15:36
problems, when you do run into those issues,
15:39
when you have tough meetings, there are people
15:43
who are going to be bought into finding solutions,
15:46
which is... Basically, that's the next huge thing
15:51
that a project is all about. It's trying to get
15:52
to your deadline and trying to work with finding
15:55
solutions to problems because there are going
15:57
to be problems. Well, I think, and you just said
15:59
that, I think that's where the connection and
16:01
the buy -in happens. It's like, you are a project
16:05
manager, right? There is a whole team there.
16:09
I mean, it would be like moving a boulder uphill
16:11
if the whole team was not bought in and they
16:14
weren't... Committed to finding a solution if
16:17
there was a problem exactly so you know it clearly
16:21
as a project manager being able to Convey the
16:24
value beyond that the numbers is probably key
16:27
exactly Yeah, if if you can get your team and
16:31
that it's not just your development team or if
16:33
you're doing a house rental It's not just the
16:35
contractors the plumber, but if you can get everyone
16:37
to buy into what it is you're doing that buy
16:42
-in it gives You know, it gives them a sense
16:44
of ownership as well, which, frankly, ownership,
16:49
when we have ownership in whatever it is we're
16:51
doing, personal, professional, whatever it is,
16:54
it makes us want to see that thing through to
16:56
success. All right. So let's talk tools. OK.
17:02
So you've said that project managers in essence
17:05
are like translators, right? You know, between
17:07
leadership, technical teams and stakeholders.
17:10
How would narrative, how would storytelling help
17:12
with that? Well, storytelling would help with
17:16
that because as a translator you need to be able
17:18
to speak a lot of different languages. I don't
17:23
mean Spanish, Swahili, English. What I'm talking
17:26
about is, you know, one of the things that I've
17:29
been told earlier in my career was that I can
17:32
speak to both business folks for, you know, the
17:35
logic of what's happening in these particular
17:36
places and I can speak to the developers. so
17:40
that we know what's happening with the database
17:42
layer versus the user interface layer. And so
17:45
I can, being a translator, it's helping the messages
17:48
not get lost. And it doesn't mean that we're
17:50
perfect because it's interacting with people.
17:53
Human's communication is the most difficult thing
17:56
that anybody in any job, but especially a project
17:58
manager can do, is communicate. So, but if you
18:02
can translate between these, between folks, between...
18:05
you know, the general contractor or the designer
18:07
and the builder between the developer and the
18:10
business person. If you can translate that, then
18:13
fewer of those messages are going to get lost
18:15
in translation. Um, and in doing so, you know,
18:21
you help, you can help to create kind of a narrative
18:25
kind of a, if you can, if you can. model the
18:32
particular story or the particular project, like
18:34
a movie or like Act 1, Act 2, Act 3, beginning,
18:39
middle, end. If you could model it, one of the
18:42
things that I do that I've done on many a project,
18:46
especially in the software space, is I create
18:50
the idea of the model of house renovation or
18:52
building a house. We're going to lay the foundation
18:55
first. This is what we're going to do this particular
18:58
phase. What we're doing over the next four weeks,
19:01
we're going to lay the foundation because anybody
19:03
who's even not a contractor, we've seen enough
19:06
HGTV to understand that without the foundation,
19:09
without a solid foundation, the rest of the house
19:12
isn't going to stand up. So I use the metaphor
19:14
of a house builder or house renovation. We're
19:16
going to lay the foundation first. And so if
19:18
you can create that model in the stakeholders,
19:23
the participants, the team's minds, It gives
19:26
them kind of a not really a static place, but
19:28
it gives them an anchor where they can understand
19:31
where the project is and where the story is that
19:34
you're trying to tell them. You know, we're building
19:36
the foundation. We're almost on the foundation.
19:38
We're ready to put up the walls. OK, what does
19:39
that mean? So it gives them something that they
19:42
can grab onto. Yeah, I mean, I like I like the
19:45
concept of translator. I know as a, you know,
19:49
as a product marketer for a software company.
19:54
I was the bridge between sales and product. And
20:00
product was very technical. Sales was very much
20:02
about, let's just make the sale. Features, features,
20:06
features. But product really was all of the technical
20:10
side of it. And both sides felt like their story
20:14
was more important. And so as the bridge, it
20:17
was conveying. to product what sales needed and
20:20
conveying to sales what product needed. And,
20:23
um, so it was, uh, you know, you really are a
20:27
storyteller and when you're being a translator,
20:30
um, because you have to be able to speak. Like
20:33
if I was going to go to product to explain to
20:35
them what sales needed, I needed to speak in
20:37
the way that they would understand and vice versa.
20:40
So I totally get the translator part of your
20:43
job. Yeah, exactly. And it's challenging at all
20:45
times because sometimes There are messages that
20:48
are lost in translation or there are, frankly,
20:51
because there's, because we're dealing with people,
20:55
messages, communications are going to get interpreted
20:58
in a particular way or filtered in a particular
21:00
way in your own mind or in someone else's mind.
21:02
That's where those communications gaps or breakdowns
21:05
are. So it's, there are still going to be translation
21:09
hiccups or speed bumps, to use a metaphor, that
21:12
happen. So it's not perfect, but... It's for
21:16
all intent and purposes, it is the most effective
21:20
way to use storytelling and to try to create
21:24
that framework or their model to be able to communicate
21:26
to all sides that you're working with. Yep. That
21:29
makes sense. That makes sense. We know things
21:33
never go perfectly in a project, right? So change
21:37
is constant. So how can storytelling help project
21:39
managers during those moments in a project where
21:42
there's going to be some turbulence? How storytelling
21:46
can help is once again to provide the meaning,
21:48
to provide the context. Context is so important,
21:51
not only when you're talking about a project
21:53
on a whole, but when you're talking about difficulties,
21:56
risks, issues, problems that come up during the
21:59
project, using a software model as well. If you
22:04
walk into, if you're doing a particular development
22:06
project and you walk into your stakeholder's
22:08
office and say, yeah, we ran into a bug, it's
22:11
doing this. That elicits there's no meaning.
22:14
There's no context around that but using a storytelling
22:18
model or using the let's use the home renovation
22:22
or home building framework if you walk into your
22:25
story your stakeholders office and says yeah
22:27
Remember that basement we were building it just
22:30
flooded then you can give some context they understand
22:34
okay, this is not an This is an insignificant
22:38
issue. This is a significant issue. And that
22:40
also goes to what we've been told as advice.
22:44
Everyone has been told this advice for the last
22:47
50 years. When you go to talk to your boss or
22:50
someone important with a problem, don't just
22:52
come with a problem. Come with a solution. So
22:55
if I walk into my stakeholder's office and say,
22:58
the basement has flooded, they look up. They
23:00
say, this is the thing that happened. We ran
23:04
into this issue. And this is how we're going
23:07
to solve it. And we've got these two options.
23:10
Which one should we do? That helps them. It gives
23:14
them context. It helps them understand how serious
23:16
this problem is. And it helps them understand
23:20
that they don't need to potentially solve it
23:25
by themselves. There's already been some thought
23:28
put into how to resolve this. But their input
23:31
is needed. And that helps. continue that investment,
23:35
that buy -in that they have. One of the things
23:38
that I do in one of the, I teach storytelling
23:42
and you know I teach people how to be writers
23:46
and we talk a lot about how metaphors can really
23:51
make things, their stories, richer. So I really
23:55
like the metaphor that you just used about the
23:58
flooded basement and sort of that making that
24:01
point of by doing that, giving them that visual,
24:06
you are, in essence, you talked about context,
24:08
you're letting them know this is significant,
24:11
this isn't just a little, you know, it's a bug.
24:15
Yeah. You know, when it's software, that's a
24:17
big deal. Yeah, exactly. And it also helps, depending
24:20
on the model and how you're communicating with
24:22
your stakeholders and whatnot, it can also help
24:24
provide some direction. You know, stakeholders
24:28
and project participants, they... They don't
24:33
mind when there's an issue, if there's a solution
24:36
to the problem. As long as the destination is
24:38
still there, if they need to detour a little
24:41
bit to get there, that's fine. How many times
24:44
have we been driving with a GPS, and the GPS
24:47
is telling us the route is going this way, and
24:50
then it says, no, you need to detour around.
24:53
We're still headed to wherever it is we're going.
24:54
We're still headed to Rhode Island. But the route
24:59
that we would have chosen to get there... has
25:01
now changed. Rhode Island hasn't, but our route
25:04
is. And that's kind of what the context can do
25:09
for using a particular storytelling model. Right.
25:12
Right. So let's move on to post project. Yay.
25:18
Project is done. Project is done. Yay. You know,
25:23
I know after a project we've gotten those sort
25:25
of lesson learned documents and they're, you
25:28
know, bulleted. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
25:31
Is there a case for storytelling in retrospectives?
25:35
Absolutely. For retrospective facts without any
25:40
emotion or without any sort of context around
25:43
them, they're forgotten. You know, I don't think
25:45
right now I could tell you from the last projects
25:47
that I've done the last five years any of the
25:50
lessons learned on those projects. You know,
25:52
generally project management best practices.
25:55
Yeah, of course, I can tell you all of those.
25:57
But the particular lesson learned? No. Because
26:00
there was no context. There was no emotion or
26:02
investment with those particularly with the retrospectives
26:06
so there needs to be storytelling there needs
26:08
to be an understanding of You know where the
26:11
project was how we started off at the beginning
26:14
What we needed to all the messy that we needed
26:17
to work through all of the mud that we needed
26:19
to track through in the middle And then how we
26:21
eventually got to the end One of the things that
26:23
I've done on several retrospectives over the
26:25
years is I use an idea of, it's called six thinking
26:29
hats. It basically, it's a model of trying to
26:34
get participant elicitation, trying to get participation
26:37
based on the idea that the brain actually works
26:41
in six different ways. There's positive thoughts,
26:44
negative thoughts. There's supremely just actual
26:48
factual thoughts. There's entirely emotional
26:51
thoughts. And there's two other ones that I can't
26:53
remember right now. But it's six thinking hats.
26:56
So when I use that as a retrospective, I've used
27:00
it effectively in that people want to participate
27:05
in where their thoughts are going for that project
27:09
for that particular time. They'll say something
27:12
like, I got so frustrated when this particular
27:15
thing happened, when the server did this. I say,
27:17
OK, that's an emotion. We'll note that down.
27:20
But it's also related to a fact. So the fact
27:23
is that server went down. Why did that server
27:26
go down? Was it something that was planned or
27:28
unplanned? Was it the data center? What was it?
27:31
So if you can separate out all of those, the
27:35
different ways that the brain works and then
27:37
tie it all together in terms of a story, because
27:41
we have that emotional investment, we've got
27:43
the facts, we've got the positive and negative
27:45
feelings around it. If you can relate all of
27:48
that to the story, then the retrospective becomes
27:51
much more than what worked, what didn't, what
27:55
will we try to do better? Because there's no
27:57
emotion, there's no story, there's no investment
28:00
to that. I remember a retrospective that I had
28:06
after we had launched the company and I was working
28:09
with a software client. you know, my job had
28:14
to be putting together an entire content kit
28:16
for a product release. And the person, the marketer
28:22
who I was working with, she had a lot on her
28:24
plate and, you know, managing a consultant became,
28:29
I think, too much for her. And so they brought
28:32
in a marketing project manager who I had worked
28:35
with before. And, you know, he, he was there
28:41
was no candy coating anything with him. He was
28:43
very strict about how he wanted things done.
28:48
And but we got where we had sort of had some
28:50
roadblocks when she was managing it, he pushed
28:54
it through and we got it done. And in the end,
28:59
there had been the the the project ended around
29:03
that time of that Lewiston main shooting. And
29:07
the Product line had people in Maine and so there
29:14
had been a team that had gone up and then the
29:16
shooting had happened and so there was all this
29:18
issues that had happened and So when came time
29:21
for the retrospective because we had it had delayed
29:24
the ending of the project a little bit The project
29:27
manager who had been very strict and getting
29:30
everything done really So much he was so humanized
29:36
in that moment on the retrospective because he
29:38
took the time to really go through sort of what
29:41
were the wins? You know, what were the what were
29:44
the places where we we stumbled which was super
29:46
helpful for me But then he was able to talk about
29:49
sort of the struggles that they had had along
29:51
the way as well as sort of this culminating really
29:55
tragic event that had impacted the team and the
29:58
timing of it and You know when you talk about
30:02
I can't remember all these lessons learned retrospectives,
30:06
you know, because I had storytelling happening
30:10
for me as I wrapped a project. I can come back
30:14
and tell you the story of of that whole experience
30:17
and how dealing with that project manager, what
30:20
what was it like? And then just how he really
30:23
was when he kind of said his goodbyes. So, you
30:26
know, I think you're right in really and I'm
30:30
guessing. Are you going to find yourself sort
30:32
of bringing more storytelling into your retrospectives
30:35
when you do them? And I would, I wonder too,
30:39
like you may want to do that. Would your stakeholders
30:43
be welcoming that kind of thing? And I think
30:45
that's probably the other side of the story,
30:47
right? That's the other side of the story because
30:48
it's not all, you know, there are teams and people
30:52
you work with and stakeholders that you work
30:53
with that they are very single threaded in their
30:59
thinking. So they think, you know, what we're
31:01
going to do, we're going to, we're going to do
31:03
well, I didn't go well. What are we going to
31:05
do better? And then that's the only way that
31:06
they, that they think, you know, one of the things
31:08
that I tried in one of my projects several years
31:11
ago was I tried bringing the six thinking hats
31:13
into a team that just wanted the, what are we,
31:17
you know, you know, the regular, what do we do
31:19
better? And it didn't fly whatsoever. It fell
31:23
over like a bag of wet cement. So, um, that was
31:28
a lesson learned for me, but it's kind of a,
31:32
it needs to be the idea of bring these storytelling
31:35
elements in where you and when you can. And I
31:40
have an understanding that sometimes they're
31:44
not going to work. And that's not because storytelling
31:47
doesn't work. And it's not because the communication
31:49
doesn't work. It might be just because the audience
31:54
is not ready to listen or not ready to participate
31:56
or doesn't want to participate because they're
31:58
very used to doing it a particular way. And that's
32:01
fine. How many times have we read a book or gone
32:03
to a movie or watched a television show or binge
32:05
watch something and something happens or a particular
32:08
episode is bad and it pulls us right out of that
32:11
episode, movie, book, whatever. Same thing. The
32:14
audience needs to be willing and participate.
32:17
And hopefully you can do that with the investment
32:19
and the things that you do along the course of
32:21
the project, but occasionally it's going to happen
32:24
that the audience, the participants are going
32:26
to pull back and there's nothing you can really
32:29
do to try to, you can try to do things after
32:32
the fact, but you can't, you can't save that
32:35
when the audience is in the middle of pulling
32:36
back. You just need to progress along. Yeah.
32:39
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can appreciate that. Teams
32:45
that are just. we this is how we've always done
32:48
it and We expect that we're gonna continue to
32:52
do that. Yeah, right Yeah, very much, but I could
32:55
see the point of what you're saying is that if
32:57
you were employing Storytelling techniques all
33:01
the way from the beginning Like I would imagine,
33:05
you know the one of the clients you have now
33:08
You've been with them for a couple of years.
33:10
So they're very used to your style. You're very
33:12
used to their expectations. So Throwing like
33:16
a like lobbing a water balloon into the room
33:18
with the storytelling that hasn't been there
33:20
before might not be embraced But say a brand
33:24
new client if you put that into play Early on
33:29
they would get used to it. So it would it would
33:32
flow I would imagine. Yeah, it would flow and
33:34
you would You know part of what part of what
33:37
we do as PMS is we need to be able to read people
33:40
and read situations so There are going to be
33:44
situations and I was working with a client just
33:46
recently where a lot of what I was doing in terms
33:50
of storytelling and project progress, it just
33:52
wasn't clicking and it didn't click. And that
33:54
was unfortunate. And no matter how many times
33:56
I tried to reset the context, I just couldn't
33:59
nail it for whatever reason. So yes, bringing
34:02
in storytelling right at the outset to establish
34:06
context is the way that it should be done. but
34:10
it's not going to be completely successful all
34:14
the time. And that's, it's not anything about
34:16
you or project management or a project manager.
34:19
That's just sometimes the way that it happens.
34:21
Right. Right. Exactly. All right. So let's get
34:25
tactical then. Are there any storytelling frameworks
34:28
or structures that PMs can borrow from the world
34:32
of writing or media? Yes, absolutely. So As we
34:37
probably are all familiar with in one way or
34:38
another, there's the idea of the model of the
34:40
hero's journey. There are some facets in the
34:45
way that it works with project management. First
34:48
of all, in one of the mistakes that a lot of
34:50
PMs make when they're trying to relate and do
34:52
this project management and trying to give context,
34:56
they create themselves as the hero. Project managers
34:58
are never the hero. Project managers are that
35:01
third -person omniscient narrator. They provide
35:05
the invisible guide work for everybody else to
35:07
do their thing. If you really want buy -in, if
35:10
you really want context and investment with your
35:13
stakeholders, make them the hero, because ultimately
35:16
they are. They're the ones who came to whoever
35:20
it was to say, we need this project done. We
35:23
need this thing done by the end of the year,
35:25
by next week. by, you know, 2027. So they are
35:30
the ones who should be invested. They are the
35:32
ones who are going to get in front of the cameras
35:35
and give the press conferences and, you know,
35:38
send out the, yay, congratulations, success emails.
35:41
It's going to come from them. So stakeholders
35:44
are always the heroes. The project management
35:48
team, not the project manager, but using a software
35:51
metaphor again, the developers, the QA team.
35:54
you know, the business analyst, the systems analyst,
35:57
they're the mentors that you come across along
36:00
the way. They're the people who provide the advice.
36:02
They're the people who steer the story. You know,
36:07
the project manager himself is, like I said,
36:11
the narrator. So at the beginning of the story,
36:14
you know, we have on the hero's journey, we have
36:16
the introduction into the world as we currently
36:19
have it. So that's when the stakeholders come
36:21
and they... Say that we need this project done
36:24
and they take an assessment of okay This is where
36:27
we are and this is what we this is what we need
36:29
to do. That's the world as is Then the middle
36:32
of the hero's journey There's a lot of pushback
36:35
and the word, you know, the hero goes into this
36:37
new world the project gets underway There's a
36:40
lot of you know hacking through the mud and a
36:42
lot of work and things that happen in the middle
36:45
of the story risks assumptions setbacks bugs
36:49
flooded basements All of these things happen
36:52
in the middle of the story. Then at the end of
36:54
the story, we have the conclusion, the denouement.
36:57
The project gets executed. That process is created.
37:01
The particular piece of software is updated.
37:03
The house is built and the owners are outside
37:05
with the key. Whatever it is, that's that. I'm
37:09
not going to say happy conclusion, but that's
37:11
the conclusion to the project. A lot of times
37:13
it'll be happy. A lot of times it'll be successful.
37:16
Occasionally it won't, but That's the conclusion
37:18
to the story. So it's the Hero's Journey metaphor
37:21
that can be really best related to, in my opinion,
37:26
storytelling as it relates to projects. Well,
37:29
I'm just excited to hear that you could plug
37:31
that framework in. Hero's Journey works across
37:34
so many different disciplines and industries.
37:36
Yeah, very much. So, yeah. All right, so let's
37:40
take this in a different direction. Let's talk
37:41
about pitfalls. So what's a common mistake that
37:44
PMs make when they try to be storytellers, but
37:47
it doesn't quite land? So it's something that
37:52
I've done as well and something that I've learned
37:53
in my career. A lot of PMs as storytellers, what
37:58
they think a story is, is just a huge dump of
38:02
information. They just have basically a big dump
38:04
truck and they... back it into the conference
38:08
room and they flip the switch and the back comes
38:11
up and they just dump out a whole bunch of data,
38:13
you know, 50 slides worth of KPIs that are absolutely
38:17
mind numbing to look at. And what they try to
38:21
do is because they're KPIs and there's no investment
38:24
or emotion associated with it, they reduce that
38:28
to be, you know, reading objectively. these 50
38:32
slides worth of KPIs. That is not a story. That
38:35
is a data dump. That is a report that you've
38:38
stuck on PowerPoint. So as long as there, for
38:46
a status, for a meeting like that, there needs
38:50
to be, once again, like we've come back to so
38:52
many times, there needs to be story and context
38:54
with it. If you can tell that story and nobody
38:58
wants to read, like we've talked about, nobody
39:00
wants to read a medical chart for enjoyment.
39:03
People want to read a story. If you can give
39:06
that status report, if you can give that meaning,
39:09
if you can give it emotion, then once again you
39:13
have the anchor for your participants. And don't
39:16
get confused with drama. Don't lean into, well,
39:21
all of these things went wrong. Wow, I thought
39:24
that things were going to completely go off the
39:26
rails. That's drama. That's not emotion. If you
39:30
can speak to the successes, the failures, the
39:36
lessons, and give it a sense of everybody kind
39:39
of coming together and provide that emotion,
39:44
that is so much more effective than... a 50 slide
39:47
KPI data dump that is completely objective because
39:51
that will never work. When any of your presentations,
39:55
no matter when they are in the project, when
39:58
they read like a to -do list, when they read
40:00
like a cooking recipe, you've lost the room.
40:05
I remember doing a storytelling seminar for a
40:10
room full of product managers and I was able
40:16
to talk to them and talk to what's a story versus
40:19
what's an example. And I had two particular product
40:24
managers who had done presentations and I used
40:27
both of their presentations sort of as an illustration.
40:31
One product manager was talking about new features,
40:34
but he talked about it in the context. of a story.
40:38
He talked about the features being used because
40:41
they did manufacturing software. He talked about
40:45
the context of the factory floor manager and
40:53
then the factory worker. They found these issues
40:57
in the work instructions and it was confusing
41:00
people and people were making errors and so they
41:02
had to bring it all the way back. to the manager
41:05
who was working with them and by plugging in
41:08
these features, they were clarifying the issues
41:12
with the work instructions and then they were
41:14
finding that people were making less errors and
41:17
the products were moving down the line quicker.
41:21
And this had been an issue in the past and that
41:25
there were people on the team, people on the
41:29
line that were just getting repeatedly frustrated
41:32
because these things were happening. Then the
41:35
other product manager basically was like, he
41:37
talked about this feature, these numbers, these
41:42
percentages, this is what it changed. There was
41:46
nothing. And I can tell you, I remember the story
41:51
of the factory worker and the manager and how
41:55
the value of these features made a difference.
41:59
So what I said to the product manager who just
42:03
gave an example, I said there was no rise and
42:07
there were no characters. Like if you can tell
42:09
a story and plug in the characters, I would imagine
42:13
that's going to humanize it, right? Especially
42:15
as a project manager. Yeah, very much. If you
42:18
can plug in and it's something that I'm not quite
42:22
good at yet. We're not quite. I'm not good at
42:24
it yet is plugging in personas, plugging in,
42:27
you know, people archetypes. You know, this is
42:29
the developer. He'll be doing this or This is
42:31
the business user. They want to do this versus
42:35
this is the developer or this is the end user.
42:38
The end user does not know about all of these
42:40
things over here. So using those kind of personas
42:43
or archetypes can absolutely help with the story.
42:46
It's something that I'm going to get better at
42:48
and I'm going to use more as I progress in my
42:51
own project management storytelling experience.
42:55
making sure that there's an arc and making sure
42:57
that there's characters. Because I think that
43:00
shows business value, right? It shows here's
43:02
our product at work. And you know, the product
43:08
and I said to them, you know, it's about the
43:10
hero's journey. I said the product manager is
43:12
not the hero of the story. The customer is always
43:14
the hero of the story. The product manager is
43:17
the guide, you know, and that's how we and that's
43:20
how we always use that. So, yeah. Okay, so before
43:26
we wrap it up today, can you give three quick
43:31
storytelling tips that any PM could apply? Okay,
43:37
a couple of these things I'm sure we talked about
43:39
already in the podcast. So first tip, use the
43:45
why. Use the why to your advantage. Don't talk
43:48
about what needs to be done, or don't only talk
43:50
about what needs to be done. What needs to be
43:52
done? We need to upgrade this. Okay, fine. Frankly,
43:55
who cares? If you give them the why, we need
43:58
to upgrade this because it's going to reduce
44:00
our support contract. It's going to reduce time
44:02
for our customers. It's going to allow us to
44:04
use these features in the future. Give them the
44:07
why. The why produces investment. When you get
44:11
that investment, then you get buying from stakeholders,
44:14
you get so many other things. The benefits are,
44:18
you reap the benefits almost immediately when
44:20
you go with the why. The second thing is, and
44:26
this is a double -edged sword. When you're giving
44:28
a status or a report or something, and we talked
44:31
about the objective details, talk about arcs,
44:35
talk about narratives, talk about a story, not
44:38
just bullets. You know give kind of a background
44:42
if you need to talk about data for whatever reason
44:45
give the why talk about the background of What
44:48
it is that everyone is looking at why it's important
44:51
the double -edged sword with that is that a PM
44:54
needs to be able to Read the room and who is
44:58
their stakeholder at the time? you know if you've
45:01
got the c -suite the CEO the CFO the CIO the
45:05
CTO and you are slated with a half hour for this
45:09
status report and someone is 10 minutes late
45:13
that means you have 20 minutes sometimes you
45:16
don't have time to get into all of your stories
45:18
so and you're going to get people that are just
45:21
going to say okay just stop tell me what's going
45:23
on so i'm going to say when you can use arcs
45:29
and not bullets tell stories and give the context
45:32
with the understanding that there are going to
45:34
be times when You're gonna need to be called
45:38
on to just talk immediately to the bullet and
45:41
That's just the way that it is we always be prepared
45:44
for that But don't let that be your go -to don't
45:47
talk to the bullet as the go -to and finally
45:49
something that I mentioned a few minutes ago
45:51
is The project manager is never the hero absolutely
45:56
never the hero He is the third person narrator.
45:59
He is the guide. So let somebody else be your
46:03
hero. Let somebody else be the participants in
46:05
your story. If you cast your stakeholders as
46:07
your hero, that's guaranteed to give you the
46:10
perspective that will help you continually envision
46:14
them and get buy -in from them. Yeah, those are
46:17
all great tips. Yeah, that's great. OK, well,
46:22
that's all the time we have for today. Thank
46:25
you, Philip, for being here. You are very welcome.
46:27
And thank you for not bringing up my honeydew
46:29
list on the program. Yeah, no, no, we're not
46:31
going to talk about that today. And really helping
46:35
us rethink sort of what the humble project manager
46:38
does and and how they really are storyteller,
46:42
you know, and how important that is. So thanks
46:45
for being here. You're welcome. Thank you for
46:46
having me. And to our listeners, whether you
46:49
hear us locally from the BTV studios in Bedford,
46:52
Massachusetts or across the globe and such podcast
46:55
channels as Spotify, Apple Podcasts or Amazon
46:58
Prime, thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed
47:00
this episode and we'll see you next time. Happy
47:03
storytelling.