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When Achievement Isn't Enough with Mike Enos · The Person behind the Position

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the person behind the podcast podcast that looks
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: beyond what people do to discover who they are.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm your host.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the person behind the position. I'm your host,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Michael Chisholm. For 25 years, my guest followed the script. Degrees,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: part number 39. Boardrooms, the titles.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: And it worked. Right up until one question started following
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: him around. Is this it?
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: So he made the leap. Walked away from the career
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: he had spent whole adult life building. Clarity didn't show
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: up like he expected. What showed up instead was a
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: lot of couch time and reruns of Law & Order.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: He started moving instead of thinking.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: The Iron Man, Kilimanjaro, 100-mile ultramarathon. Some of it worked
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: and some didn't. He learned the same lesson.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Every time the action creates the clarity and not the
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: other way around.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: So please welcome Mike Enos. All right.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Michael. It's a pleasure to be
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: here today.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: So, so when you earned the PhD, when you become
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: a partner, advise senior executives and boards, later chief people
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: officer and COO, what was happening Inside Mike, when a
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: life that looks successful started feeling incomplete.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: That's a really good question. I think you got to
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: go back a little ways to see, um, and understand
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: how I'm kind of wired. And I think this is very, um,
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: this is, this is the way a lot of men
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: are wired, right? We are taught at a very young
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: age to, um, to achieve. and to go to school
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: and start making money, take care of your family. Right.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: So those are, those are the things. And so I,
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: I went in with that script. I'm going to, I'm
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: going to achieve, achieve, achieve. And that's where, you know,
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: I went in and got my PhD at a very
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: young age and went into consultant and went from analyst to,
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: to the partner level, you know, it took 10 years
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: to do that. Uh, sacrificed all the weekends and a
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: lot of vacations and kind of, and, uh, you know, uh,
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: delayed gratification, if you will kind of delayed my, my,
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: my life just because I needed to achieve. And that's
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  Speaker 3: kind of, that's kind of how I was wired. Um,
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  Speaker 3: and I thought that if I achieved a certain amount
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: of things that happiness would eventually come. And so each
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: time I had one of those achievements, I, you know,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: happy for like maybe a minute, two minutes, and then
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: it's like reset and you're like, okay, what's next. And
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: you keep going and you keep thinking that next thing
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: is going to make you happy, but it never does.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: And so it took me four or five of those
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: rounds to realize, okay, this is not going to work.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: This is not the way to go through life. And
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: eventually I had kind of an epiphany like this is it.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: This is the question that came up. That question, is
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: this it, kept popping into my mind because I wasn't happy.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: There had to be more to life than just achievements
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: and trying to make money. and those things. And that's
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: when I, I took a leap and just left my
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: executive role and nothing lined up, nothing lined up because I,
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: I knew there needed, there needed to be more in
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: life than just what I was doing. And I had
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: hoped that I could eventually find it, but I had
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: no plan. I just left.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Okay. So when you were, leaving something that you no
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: longer wanted or.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Expecting to finally discover who you were without it, what
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: did you believe was going to happen once you left?
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  Speaker 3: So when I first left, what I really expected was
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: that there was going to be an outpour of people
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: knocking at my door to have me work in their,
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: in their organization or the corporation. And I mean, there
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: was some of that, but it was within the industry
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  Speaker 3: that I was in and I was trying to get
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  Speaker 3: out of that industry. So I didn't want to go
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  Speaker 3: back into that, but there was no one else besides
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  Speaker 3: people in my old industry knocking at my door. So
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  Speaker 3: that's when, you know, that's when I was, I spent
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  Speaker 3: the first couple of months sitting on my couch eating
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: popcorn and watching law and order free runs because I
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: thought that if someone, you know, eventually someone's going to
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: reach out. But I also thought that if I thought
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  Speaker 3: hard enough at that time, that my purpose would come.
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  Speaker 3: I knew my purpose wasn't what I used to do
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  Speaker 3: in the old industry, but I knew I would find something,
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  Speaker 3: but I thought thinking on the couch was going to
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: get me there. And that got me obviously nowhere because,
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: you know, um, in order to get clarity and in
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  Speaker 3: order to find purpose, you actually have to take action.
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  Speaker 3: And that's, that is one of the big discoveries that, um,
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds like so much common sense, right. But,
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  Speaker 3: but that's what I discovered those first three months.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So, so, um, what was that season really like when
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  Speaker 1: there was no title, no schedule or, next achievement telling
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  Speaker 1: you what to do?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think at first it was kind of like
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: almost a cleansing period because for so long every day
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: was emails and Zoom meetings and chaos and fire drills
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. So you're Yeah. When
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: you're in that world, your nervous system is just, is
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: this going bonkers? You're always on, you can't turn it off.
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  Speaker 3: And so there was a period when that was all gone.
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  Speaker 3: I just kind of, it was a reset and, um,
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: kind of gave me time to, to think, which I did. Right.
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: And I was okay with that. I really wasn't, I
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: don't think I was attached. My identity wasn't attached to
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: my title. my identity was always attached to achievement improving.
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  Speaker 3: And so I didn't, I didn't need the, I didn't
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: need the title. I wasn't, my ego wasn't impacted by
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: not having the executive title. What I struggled with is still,
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: still the achievement stuff. And I, and I'm sitting on
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: the couch. There was no achievement. So I started, you know,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: when I, to break out of that, I started taking
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: actions and I started doing things to go after achievement again.
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  Speaker 3: And that's a story in itself too, because striving just
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: for achievement, that doesn't bring you happiness either, which I
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: later discovered. But that's when I started doing, I went
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: to Stanford and got a degree at Stanford, a program
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: called the LEAD program, which was exceptional. And then started
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: training for an Ironman, Jumped out of the plane, skydived,
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: faced my fears, started training for an Ironman, and that
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  Speaker 3: just kind of got things kind of going for me.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: So I want to double back to you talking about
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: striving for achievement.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Explain that a little more to me. Well, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So I think it boils down to this. I came
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: from kind of a middle-class, lower middle-class upbringing, blue collar,
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: and also was an athlete. And so I think the
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: combination of those two things, you know, as a lower,
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: lower income person, you want to prove yourself right and
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: make it. So there's, there's that piece of it. That's
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: like in my, in my system, I wanted to achieve
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  Speaker 3: and show the world that I can do it.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: And then there's that competitive element because I'm an athlete
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  Speaker 3: that I, you're going to, you're going to win. Right.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: So between those two things, that's why I think achievement
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: was so important to me. Like it was just kind
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: of in my system, but, but, and I always thought too,
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: that if I achieved enough, I would be happy, but,
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: There's three components of happiness, all right? And achievement's one
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  Speaker 3: of them, but it's not it's not all of that
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  Speaker 3: enjoyment is another one and purpose is another one you
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  Speaker 3: gotta have three of those variables working you know satisfaction
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  Speaker 3: which is achievement uh purpose and enjoyment and so i
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  Speaker 3: over indexed on the achievement component for a You know,
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  Speaker 3: and so, you know, I started writing this book and
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  Speaker 3: through the whole process after I left my job was
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  Speaker 3: that happiness is found in those three things and working them,
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  Speaker 3: all three of them at the same time. You can't
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  Speaker 3: just have one or two. You can have all three.
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  Speaker 2: So how did you know you were exploring who Mike was.
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  Speaker 1: And not simply replacing corporate achievement with a different kind
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  Speaker 1: of achievement?
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  Speaker 3: That's a good question because I didn't know at first, Michael.
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  Speaker 3: And in fact, when I started my book, I still
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: didn't know either. And the funny thing is, is that,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: so I ended up finishing the Ironman. So I set
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: out to do that and I finished it. And then
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: three days later, I was on a plane to Africa
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  Speaker 3: to hike Kilimanjaro. I did that with my son. So,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I had two massive victories in a period of,
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: you know, two weeks. And then, and then I was like, okay,
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  Speaker 3: what's next? Cause you just got to keep going, right?
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  Speaker 3: You gotta, you gotta one up it. And so I
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  Speaker 3: signed up for an ultra marathon, a hundred mile ultra
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  Speaker 3: marathon in California. And so I started on that journey
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  Speaker 3: because that's, that's what I do, right? Just keep kind
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: of going. But here was the beauty of it. And
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  Speaker 3: this is why, this is why it took me so
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: long to write the book because the book, the story,
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  Speaker 3: I was still in the middle of the story when
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  Speaker 3: I was, when I was writing the book. I signed
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  Speaker 3: up for the 100 mile ultramarathon and trained my butt off.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm a very disciplined guy. Six months, boom, every
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: day was a workout schedule. I hit my targets, boom, boom, boom, boom.
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  Speaker 3: And I show up in California to do that race.
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  Speaker 3: There's 300 athletes there. And it's up and down canyons
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  Speaker 3: in California. I trained here in New England In Massachusetts here,
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: it's relatively flat, and it was the winter, so I'm
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: going to travel almost the winter training. I show up there.
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  Speaker 3: It's canyons up and down, and you've got to hit
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: certain cutoff periods during the race. Anyways, I didn't make
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  Speaker 3: the 100 miles. It's called the sweepers sweep you off
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: the course because you didn't hit certain times by certain distances.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't hit it. And then, um, but, but that
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  Speaker 3: taught me a valuable lesson, Michael, because that night I
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: was sitting on, I was, I was actually lying in
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: bed reflecting on, okay, I just, I just failed. This
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: is a failure. I trained for six months and it
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: wasn't bothering me, Michael. And that's, that's when I realized that, okay,
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  Speaker 3: I don't, I don't need the achievement anymore. I need
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  Speaker 3: to tie my identity to achievement. I can still fail.
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  Speaker 3: And it's the journey. It's the journey, which is so important.
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  Speaker 3: And that was such a valuable lesson. And I knew
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: it intellectually, but I never really experienced it, and that hit.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: And my son sent me a text that night, and
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: it was just so on point. He said, Dad, the
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: outcome doesn't matter. It's all about the journey. You should
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: be really proud of yourself. And that kind of summed
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: up the lesson and the experience.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Of all that.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: It was a beautiful thing. Okay.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: So your book is called, you know, Explore Again, Break
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Free from the Script. Yeah. Right. So looking back, whose
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: script were you actually following?
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's two parts, right? We learn our scripts when
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: we're in a young age, right? So where we grew up,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: where we go to school, our friends and that stuff.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: So the original script that I was taught in the
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: kind of blue collar world is that, you know, happiness.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: So you peak early, work sucks, and then you retire
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: and then you can be happy. That was kind of
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: the script that I thought. And then I went to
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: college and I was like, you know what? That script
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: is not the right script. So I upgraded the script, right?
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: To the white collar script, which is, earn your degree,
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: work hard, make a lot of money, still delay gratification, but,
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: and then you can be happy once you make a
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: lot of money and have your status. So that was
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: the script that I followed, which I learned, you know,
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: in college, but then I also, you go to the
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: white collar world and that's everyone's kind of, or most
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: people are following that script. It's just, that's just what
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: it is. And so I went, I'm all in, right?
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: I'm all in kind of guy. And so I just
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: ate that up. I'm like, okay, this is the game.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: This is the script. We're going to do it. And,
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: you know, it just took a while for me to
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: figure out. Following the script is not the way to go.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: You've got to break free from the script and follow
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: your own path and create your own script.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: So do you think that there's still a script that
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: you catch yourself following today?
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: That's a good question. I want to say no.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: But, um, where I, I, I can, I fall sometimes
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: back into autopilot, like just kind of doing the routine,
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: you know, which is kind of the script, but I
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: know that to feel alive, cause my goal is just,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: this is to feel alive and learn and just, make
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: the most of this miracle that we have being on
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: this earth. When I can catch myself, I'm not really following,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: I'm not following a script anymore. I'm creating my own script.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Okay. So how do you feel when you've.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Accepted the fact that you're following your own script now,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: not this I guess this pseudo script of the world,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: you know, where happiness is only found after you've achieved,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: you know, so many things.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I, you know, I would love to say it's
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: like so easy and it's fantastic and it's great, but
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: that's not the truth because you're out on your own,
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: you're doing your own thing and no one's really doing it.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: So there is a piece of like, not loneliness, but
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: you just, you're, you're, not doing what everyone else is doing.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: And so you're different. And so that's difficult. And then
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: the other piece of it too, there's uncertainty. With a script,
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: there's certainty, right? You just follow the path everyone's doing, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: It's easy, right? What I'm experiencing now is that there's
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: just uncertainty with everything. Everything I'm doing, there's uncertainty. And
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: so it's a matter of getting uncomfortable uh getting comfortable
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: with that uncertainty which i've learned and i think it's
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: a very valuable skill is being able to sit in
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: discomfort and not knowing that's uh uh i think such
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: a valuable skill and i'm happy to say that i'm
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: getting much much better at it because like in everything
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: you know my coaching business that i have now it's
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: uncertain like i don't know how how much how great
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: it's going to be right in or some of these
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: athletic have that i take part and i don't know
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: what's going to happen it's just but uncertainty also you
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: know scary and uncomfortable it's actually makes me feel alive
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: right um because we're not in autopilot anymore we're just
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: like okay uh anything can happen here let's let's find
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: out um so that that part is amazing.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: So i like how you um said that even in
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: the uncertainty, you know, life can still be amazing.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: What do you do when the uncertainty is not so amazing?
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: Well, that's been kind of, I've dealt with it in
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: the past, you know, three years.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Since I left.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: Believing that something better is going to happen. So having
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: a strong belief system in yourself, right? And having hope
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: can bail you out. And then uncertainty is, there's always,
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: it's not forever, right? So you know that eventually this
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: uncertainty is going to end, right? And so you're aware.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Of that, that.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: This is not going to be forever, this feeling of
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: uncertainty and discomfort. So there's hope, and you know it's
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: not going to be forever, and those two things help.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you earned a PhD. You've been a partner
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: and advisor previously. chief people officer, COO, coach, an author,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: an endurance athlete, and an explorer. So just for a moment,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going to take all of those away. No title,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: no next mountain, no accomplishment to point to.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Who are you behind the position?
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: Whatever I want to be. Yeah. So if you take
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: all that stuff, which is actually freeing, right? Because like,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: take it all off.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Boom.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: I'm just someone here on this earth for a short
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: period of time that is trying to make sense of
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: this all that wants to have connections with people and
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: experience joy and adventure and love. And yeah, that's it, man.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: Those are the things I like that to me, that's,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: that's a beautiful life. Like you take away all that stuff.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Like all this stuff is what makes us,
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: drives us crazy. You know, when I was younger, like
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: the idea of being an executive, right? Like the push
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: for that, I get it. It was important. I wanted
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: to make money and all that stuff, but the amount
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: of sacrifice and it wasn't a happy life. And so
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: I think a lot, we get stuck in that. We
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: just think that it's going to be better when we
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: have these achievements and have these titles. You strip that
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: all away, you're free. You are completely free. And that's
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: how I wanna operate. It's not about titles and achievements anymore.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: It's just living life free with love, connections, adventure, those things.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, so Mike, thank you for allowing us to meet
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: the person behind the position. Where can our listeners find
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: you on social media?
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: Yep, so LinkedIn, Mike Enos, and then you can buy
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: my book if you go to exploreagain.com, it's my website,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: and you'll be able to purchase my book there. It's
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: coming out in, so we're in September right now, It'll
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: be out in early November time period to be able
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: to purchase the book.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Okay. Thank you so much for once again being with
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: us today.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: And to everyone listening, maybe the question isn't only, is
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: this it?
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Maybe we also have to ask, whose script am I following?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And who am I without it? I'm Michael Chisholm, and
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: this is the person behind the position.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Michael.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you. If you've enjoyed this episode, share it with
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: your friends.