Latest / She Speaks to Scale / 8. Using Storytelling to Build Confidence and Connection with Emily Bardwell
Transcript
- Sarah Collins: Hi, Emily. work is all about social media and storytelling. And obviously storytelling is something I'm really passionate about too. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. thank you so much for joining me. Now I start every guest by asking, can you share the moment when you realized your voice truly mattered? My guest today is founder of Telling Tales Media and self-published children's author, Emily Bardwell. Let's dive into the conversation. Emily, I'm just thinking about listeners for this podcast. They might have perhaps an interview coming up or maybe a talk, some kind of speaking opportunity. ⁓ Where would you say them to start incorporating their stories? ⁓ Thank you for listening to this episode of She Speaks to Scale. If you liked the episode or you think it will be useful for someone else, please follow and leave a review. If you've got any questions, do let me know via the social handles in the show notes. And remember to speak with intention, not hesitation, and let your voice be heard. Emily, something I hear a lot is my story is not worthy. ⁓ And something I say is, know, chat GPT can't write story for you. It's unique to you and only you. ⁓ You share a similar kind of philosophy everyone has a story worth sharing, don't you? Emily - Telling Tales Media: I think stories can be built into nearly anything that you're doing or any conversations that you're having where you're wanting to share something of yourself, share some experience that you've had, talk about part of your business or something that you offer or an experience or a way that you can help people or if you're looking for a way to engage with people and drive a conversation, a story is a really great way to do that. It just allows you to... Well, thank you so much for having me, Sarah. I think this is something that I still struggle with a little bit even now. And it's something that I think I see a lot of people struggling with and ⁓ needing support with all time. And it's something that I can certainly empathize with. But I think there was probably for me a moment ⁓ a couple of years when I was publishing my first ⁓ children's book that really with me for this. Sarah Collins: Hello and welcome to She Speaks to Scale with me, Sarah Collins. The podcast that empowers women in business to own their voice, be heard and create impact, one communication insight at a time. I'm a media trainer and communication coach and a former senior television producer. It's my mission to bring the communication skills we need to thrive in today's world of business to the generation of women who simply weren't taught them. Emily - Telling Tales Media: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's probably one of the biggest parts of my business really. And more so ever in the age that we are at the moment with AI, the way that we used to be able to show up on social media and online was very different. And there was ⁓ much more of an for being Sarah Collins: Thank you. Emily - Telling Tales Media: leave them with something that's going to be a lot more memorable that they can engage with, they can connect with, but it also gives them an opportunity to get involved and to spark something in them that might trigger a response that they're going to be able to engage with and come back to you on. So if it's a podcast, it might be getting in touch with you directly. If it's a blog post, it might be them replying or leaving a comment in the blog, something that's going to trigger an emotion, I guess, or trigger something in somebody that's going to make them want to engage with you and connect with you. much more polished and professional. And certainly for me, having worked in marketing for 20 years, albeit long before social media was really a thing for us in marketing, it was sort of drilled into us then that, you you had to show up really professionally, really polished. Everything had to be really perfect. for anybody in my sort of age bracket, I guess, we've kind of grown up with that mentality. It's very, very different now. And it's quite a hard shift, I think, for people to put themselves in that. Sarah Collins: Whether it's scaling your voice to step into thought leadership in a media interview, speaking with confidence on camera, on stage and beyond, or scaling the way you communicate when it really counts. This podcast will help you use your voice to be heard in the moments that matter. Emily - Telling Tales Media: As a new author who was publishing my first book, I had the huge syndrome and there was ⁓ awful lot of people obviously talking about their books that they've published and new authors and experienced authors on Instagram, for example. ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ certainly at the beginning thinking, what on earth have I got to share? What am I talking about? How I teach anybody anything? I don't know, I'm really new to this. And so everything I was sharing was all about my book and my story and it was all quite structured and polished. ⁓ but really stories can be used in any kind of marketing opportunity that you have. position where they're not having to do everything really perfectly. But I think what comes with that as well is therefore showing up much more as yourself and bringing that story to reality is a huge vulnerability. And I think it's easier and it's safer to hide behind something that's more polished because ⁓ they're having to be as vulnerable. ⁓ And want to be taken seriously on social media, certainly on... It was only really after getting into it and starting to let people in a little bit more and actually bring them on that journey and start sharing some of my own experiences of being a new author and leaning into that vulnerability that I suddenly saw a big shift in the response I got on social media. I was getting a lot more engagement, but I was getting a lot more interaction and DMs and questions from other authors. platforms such as LinkedIn, hear an awful lot of people worrying about them not seeming credible enough or they want to be taken seriously and you know, they're building a reputation for themselves. And to be showing up as yourself, there's so much confusion, I think a lot of the time around that boundary between sharing your story and showing up as yourself, but not oversharing and not going into that really personal territory, which is a huge thing that I come across all the time with founders. or other people in the community who were really interested in my journey. And that sparked so much more interaction than the sort of more stuff, I suppose. ⁓ it was a real light bulb moment for me of where we often sit there thinking, you know, what have I got to share? Well, I haven't got anything that's that valuable. ⁓ realizing that, there'll always be somebody who's much further along than me. There's always going to be someone who's much more experienced and ⁓ more confident in what they're doing and whatever else it is. But at the same time, there's also people who are And quite honestly, it's something I feel myself as well. I'm not a huge oversharer when it comes to my experiences outside of work. And that's a huge thing that comes up. And I always tell my clients, you do not have to be ⁓ completely your life to be building your story and sharing your story for your business online. So, yeah, it's definitely something that comes up. And I think it ⁓ does lot come down to that vulnerability of... ⁓ wanting to be at that point in your journey where you are as well, who have still got quite a way to come and they're interested in how you got there and what your experience is. I suddenly realised the importance of sharing that sort of much more story-led content and really letting people into who you are and what makes you tick to create a lot of engagement and have a bit more of a voice. So I think that was probably the key moment for me a couple of years ago. allowing people to see the real face behind the business. But everybody has an amazing story to tell and it's the reason why you are who you are and there's always going to be. I think I had a really great experience of this a few weeks ago and I joined an event where there was a whole bunch of other people who do a similar role to me online at a conference and there was probably a good hundred of us doing a similar thing. But what really stood out to me was that none of us were bringing the same things to that role. Sarah Collins: Emily, so ⁓ we've covered such a lot today. If anyone would like to more about or how to potentially work with you, where should they go? Emily - Telling Tales Media: We all had something, we all had a slightly different angle that we could take on something. all had a different enthusiasm or a different vulnerability or something that we were a little bit more expert in. We all had something very different because we were coming at it from a very different angle. You some people have studied what I do, some people have just learnt it on the job. Everybody was different and I really, really valued that. I didn't walk away from that event thinking, ⁓ my goodness, there's so many of us doing the same job. I walked away from it thinking, that's amazing. We've all got something really different to bring to the table and I loved that. Probably social media is a good place to start. So you can find me at Telling Tales Media on Instagram You can also find me on LinkedIn at Emily Bardwell just drop me a DM on social media. I'd love to hear from you. Sarah Collins: you mentioned there, Emily, about the fears and the doubts. And I think that's so normal, isn't it, for when we're doing anything new. Do you see ⁓ sorts of thoughts come through in the clients that you work with? Emily - Telling Tales Media: And that's why I always try and help my clients to understand. Sarah Collins: That's a really important reframe, isn't it? Because you can go to perhaps networking events and there'll be other people there doing a similar thing to you. And it's really hard kind of not to compare yourself. But I think when you look at it from what you're saying and actually, everybody brings a different perspective, that's a really lovely kind of way to look at it. you something there, which was really refreshing, ⁓ which ⁓ you have to share your entire life online. Emily - Telling Tales Media: I see an awful lot of that and I think that's where I kind of came to this realization a little while ago that so much of how we show up online it comes down to confidence because people are so, from what I hear, a lot of people are so reluctant as to thinking what value can I add that hasn't been said before ⁓ how do I show up in a way that ⁓ me sound credible or that I look professional or that I'm not oversharing. ⁓ And there's always these doubts of how people are showing up. And I see that time and time again with the people I work with. it's something that I can certainly ⁓ relate to from previously, it's a hugely common thing that a lot of people are facing. And I think the thing with how you show up online, it's more daunting in a way than how you show up ⁓ at a face-to-face event, anything that goes out online is there long-term for everybody to see. And I think that's what puts Sarah Collins: And I think it's about getting that balance, isn't it? ⁓ own experiences, when I finish work a Friday, I don't want to be ⁓ all across social media all the weekend. And I won't ⁓ because that time is quite to me. ⁓ And also I don't share of my kids and things like that. It feels like there can be a balance there. So I think you saying that will be So Emily, to wrap up the I'd like to ask my guests to complete the blank. If they could encourage listeners to speak with, whether that's a word or a phrase, can you tell me what you would say and why? really, really welcome to the listeners to this podcast. Emily - Telling Tales Media: quite a fear in a lot of people that how they show up is going to potentially stay around for a long time. So it just adds that extra layer of pressure, I think. Yeah, I think it's so important and I think, you know, there will be people out there who that's how they build their brand and that's fine. if that's where you're comfortable, that's one of the other really important messages is, you know, you have to do this and show up in a way that feels comfortable to you. There's no point trying to be somebody else or trying to do it as somebody else is because you're not being genuine to yourself and ⁓ who you and therefore that will come across. And so you have to do what's comfortable to you. ⁓ And if many, many people, it's not that comfortable to share all of that stuff, that's fine, because that's not what storytelling is. ⁓ I would say to speak with the courage to sound like themself and the reason I say that is I do think it takes quite a lot of courage to be yourself and to let people in and see the real you but I think believe that people want to hear from you and I think it's very common for many of us to think that other people know what we have to say or the knowledge that we have so why should I share that but actually Sarah Collins: you there about being a children's author and there's so many different things. know we're to touch on all of this, but I just want to take you back ⁓ to background and your experience. Can you tell me a little bit more about what that is? And obviously you went on to lead a team in their social media strategy. Tell us a little bit more about that. Emily - Telling Tales Media: That's not what we're talking about when we talk about storytelling and I think that's what people fear. But storytelling is about, it's not just telling everybody what you've done, it's about helping people to understand how you feel ⁓ helping to create experiences where ⁓ people can connect to and relate to from your everyday moments. And a big key part of it is being specific. Sharing a moment that you might think is not that big. Well, so I've worked marketing and comms for around about 20 years ⁓ and ⁓ across a range industries. ⁓ And I guess a part of my role over those years has been about helping to get a message across to different audiences in a way that's going to really connect with them. And I've worked with content that's pretty dry, that's pretty heavy. And so always constantly for years in different roles, looking for ways to ⁓ when you start to break down those barriers and you let people in and you let people see and hear the real you, you realise actually there's a lot of people that are really interested in what you have to say and so having the courage to just let that out to allow you to connect with the right people has lot of benefits so I think ⁓ having courage to sound like yourself. Sarah Collins: Some wise words there to end the episode with. Thank you so much, Emily. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Emily - Telling Tales Media: but being quite detailed about it and really going into the detail allows people to actually feel in that moment and experience it with you. When you're really generic and you just talk about something it could be anybody saying So it's those details that allow storytelling to build a connection. ⁓ And I think those are things that people don't often think about ⁓ when we talk about storytelling. just go straight to the immediate, ⁓ I have to share everything. create something that will turn something that's potentially quite heavy into something that's really going to connect with an audience. So that's always been part of what I've done. And then four or five years ago, I stepped into a role to lead the social media for a global consultancy to help with initially putting together their social media strategy. And ⁓ after and working in that team for four years, it became obvious to me the content that was really, really landing Thank you so much for having me Sarah, it's been great. Sarah Collins: ⁓ So if someone is to storytelling, what stories would you say to start sharing? Emily - Telling Tales Media: was the stuff that was talking about people, ⁓ connecting with other and the experiences that we were having. And whenever our CEO speak, that always landed really, really well, and certain senior people across the business. ⁓ And it was kind of around about the same time that employee was absolutely exploding as well, just as it is now, still for obvious reasons. ⁓ it was something that we realized we really had to get on with. And so I helped the business to launch an employee advocacy program. ⁓ So I always look at it as having two different types of stories that you can share. Two of both different, but you do need both of them really to be able to show up to build your sort of credibility and your brand, but also ⁓ build that trust. And those two things are your founder story. So every business or every founder who I work with has a founder story. And that's that big story that we all probably know about, the reason why we're doing what we do. ⁓ taking about 200 of their senior leaders, bringing them into this programme and working with them to build up their LinkedIn profile. And that was probably one of the most crucial times for me where I realised actually these people are really senior, these people are really experienced in what they do, hugely, hugely knowledgeable ⁓ But put them on social media or you get them anywhere and they're linked in and they were just free, so they didn't know. The people that we're trying to help, how we got to where we are, the things we had to give up to get where we are, the experiences we've had along the way. ⁓ that big sort of founder story that makes you stand out from everybody else. And that's the big bit that really helps to cement a lot of trust in you as a business and to build that moment where people think, ⁓ hang on, this person gets it, this person gets me. how they should show up in a way that was going to still be credible, professional, what they had to say, how to say it. And that was really fascinating for me. That was kind of another real light bulb moment, I think, where I realized this was potentially an area where I could really help people. And then at the same sort of time, I was publishing my first children's book and then a year later published my second one. And while I was doing this, although they're very different and children's storytelling is, you might think, really, really different to working in business. That's really important, but that's not something that you're going to repeat time and time and time, week in and week out all the time in all your content. That's something that you would potentially be weaving in at different moments throughout telling your story online. And obviously building that into other marketing content and conversations that you have in your website and your email and ⁓ blog posts and all of that stuff. But that is something that you sort of weave in occasionally. ⁓ thing that I think a lot of people talk about or probably relate to more when we're talking about storytelling is those everyday moments. So that's the sort of other side of it. And those are just the real small micro moments that you experience every day, every week. And what I get my clients to do is get a small notebook, and really one that you can pop in your handbag ⁓ and take around with you. And whenever something happens throughout the week, it doesn't have to feel big. It could be a conversation you've had with a client or a customer. content strategies, but actually the kind of content that you share on social media is very similar into how it's put together, or it should be really, to how we put together children's storybooks. And there's a similar sort of format and similar sorts of things that are really important. And this became really obvious to me about ⁓ overlap between what I was doing in these two different areas that I was working in, that there was a real similarity that ⁓ I to be able to bring together. ⁓ something that went really well, something that went awful that you were really disappointed with, ⁓ something that really surprised you, just something that created a little moment that really made it stand out to you for whatever reason. Just jot it down, don't overthink it, just write it down. You might never ever come back to it again. But it's those little moments that you can then, when you come back to creating your content, you can look at and look at how, whether any of those stories really align with potentially or hopefully your social media strategy or... which is what made me decide to then set up Telling Tales Media to help founders who are generally the face of their business to be able to find and tell their stories in a way that felt really genuine to them and that felt easy for them to be able to show up consistently with a clear plan was based on something that was very real to them. certainly any content themes or pillars that you might have for your content and look at ways that you can build those stories ⁓ you're trying to achieve. And just two different ways to use storytelling, but you really need both because if you're constantly just talking about your founder story, people aren't that familiarity and they're not having that opportunity to really ⁓ build that of ongoing trust with you. But if you're only ever using the micro stories, then you don't necessarily have the thing that's always helping you to stand out. ⁓ Being able to weave both of those types of stories into how you're showing up in your content is really valuable. Sarah Collins: I think that's such a, great point. The small stories, the everyday stories, ⁓ because those the ones that people are going to relate to, aren't they? ⁓ You can pretty much guarantee if that's happening to you, it's probably happening to someone else or they can relate to it in some way, which is really great. when it comes to ⁓ being seen online, ⁓ you mentioned in the notes that you over to me, that there's a real need for people to be just them. And I think that is sometimes easier said than done. So what kind of tips have you got for people to just really be themselves? Emily - Telling Tales Media: I think when they're talking or they're creating any content, for me it's often about saying it how you would have a conversation. So not trying to say it how you think it should be said or trying to write something how you think people want to hear, but just writing it in a really conversational way that sounds like you. Because people, I've heard this from people where they've said sort of seen this kind of content and this kind of conversation's flowing, they've really understood that that's their voice. They know... hands down that that's them talking and they're not using AI or they're not using somebody else to write it for them because they can tell so clearly that that is how they would write and that's how they would speak. That's really what you want to aim for. but it's comes down to having confidence in yourself that what you've got to say is valuable and that actually there really are people that ⁓ are interested in you have to say. I worked with a client recently, She was such a wonderful woman. She was so talented in what she does. But she was so nervous about showing up as herself. And she said to me, felt had this slightly quirky personality and she didn't know how that would be received. And she was worried about sharing that. But she had a pretty good following already. ⁓ And had quite a lot of people interested in her particular niche. And ⁓ I to her, ⁓ people are already really, really interested. They're already here. They don't need to be following you and engaging in your content. They like what they see. So just give them more of that and give yourself permission to be who you want to be because they're there and they're willing to listen. And it's almost that sort of just needing that slight bit of reassurance that it's okay to be themselves. I've seen having followed that conversation, I've seen how... this client is showing up online and it's gorgeous to watch because she's so much more confident and you can tell she's starting to really be herself and she's having fun with it as well, which I think is the other thing, is that this is quite hard work and a lot of founders have got a million things to do as well as marketing. And then just in the marketing bucket alone, you've got email, you've got blog posts, you've got advertising, you've got social media and it's a lot to do. you want to make sure that when you are doing that social content, having a little bit of fun with it, because you can tell that as well. If it's an absolute slog and you're just not enjoying it it's really hard work and you're just doing the same thing on repeat every week, then that kind of comes across as well. having a little bit of fun with it and being able to be just be natural to who you are. And that takes practice. I think that's the last thing I'd say is it's not something that you can't just suddenly say to someone overnight. to change and be really confident because that's not how it works. it's just, from what I've seen with the founders and the senior leaders I worked with at the consultancy for sure, is the more they do it, the more familiar they get. Certainly the more reels they film, for example, the more they do that, the more comfortable they become. And that's just something that happens over time. Sarah Collins: Mm, I can completely resonate with that. And what you said there about almost like a ⁓ switch flicking of actually that that client could show up as herself and she would be received, really well. I had a similar thing happen to me kind of this time last year where I, ⁓ just decided really be authentic and be myself and see what happens. And ⁓ it brought joy back into the business. Actually, it was really lovely. ⁓ Emily - Telling Tales Media: Yeah. Sarah Collins: I wanted to talk about AI because when we use our voice for storytelling on social media, it's really about having that trust in your voice, isn't it? Do you think we're becoming more more savvy now to AI copy and actually using that in a good way to help our strategy rather than relying on it? What's your thoughts around AI? Emily - Telling Tales Media: Well, first of all, are we more savvy to it? ⁓ Definitely. think we're all recognising a that's been written by AI for sure. ⁓ But I think that's where we have to lean on storytelling so more. And coming back to what I was saying about the specific details, no matter how much it knows your voice, no matter how well you train it, it's not designed to know the things that you know. ⁓ It doesn't know the... experiences that you've had, it can't bring in those moments, it can't ask you about those things that it doesn't know about. And so where it's so important ⁓ draw on your experiences and to build that into what you're talking about. Because if you don't, it is all sounding very much the same. It is all sounding very generic. ⁓ My take on there in terms of how I use it for my business and for social media, I think it's got a place for sure. I think it can be really, really useful ⁓ if you are, train it properly and you're not ⁓ just Asking it to do things with no context, you obviously have to build in a lot of understanding so it knows exactly who you are, what your brand is all about, what you're trying to achieve, who your audience are. But I think it's also not about, I never ask it, I don't know, I'm not asking it to write my content. I think it can be really useful for processes and helping to come up with ideas or helping to sort of sense check an idea that you've got. But if you're writing copy for social media, that really needs to be done by yourself. That's got to be in your voice. And even if you've trained AI, in my experience, it's still not going to be able to draw on those experiences that only you really can tell. Sarah Collins: I've noticed that in some emails that I receive where AI has obviously been used, you do lose that trust business is built on trust, isn't it? you talk about having a storytelling framework, a strategy. What does that look like for someone who's perhaps just starting out? Emily - Telling Tales Media: So I get asked how to build storytelling quite often into day-to-day content plans. I think a lot of people who are starting out or have been going for a little while in social media particularly, they might have a content plan, so they've got a calendar mapped out and they've sort got a rough idea of what they want to say. But a lot of the time when you really drill into that, that's based on what they either have been doing that week and what they think. might be useful or what they think their audience might want to know about. And that's where I really lean into social media strategy with those clients and ⁓ demonstrate the value of having that because ⁓ once you've got a really strategy in place, it's not just about what you're doing, it's about why you're doing it and that kind of changes everything. That makes a really big difference to what you create and how you create it and therefore the stories that you tell. Audience is probably one of the biggest things that I ever talk about when I work with anybody because for me it drives everything. Every single thing that you do, every way that you show up on social media comes down to how well you know your audience. If you don't know your audience, and I don't just mean when I ask people that sometimes they might say business owners, more business owners, and I say no, but what's actually worrying them, what's troubling them, what are their real challenges, what's keeping them up at night, what are they really interested in? Sarah Collins: and then. Emily - Telling Tales Media: really really understanding and why they're showing up on social media, what they're looking for, what you can support them with. When you really drill into that, that allows you to design your content and your strategy based around what you can deliver and what they need and what they want. ⁓ you can tailor or you can create your content themes and your pillars or whatever you want to call them ⁓ that you've got a consistent stream of content that's aligned with what you're trying to achieve. And that's where you can thread in your story. So that's where a lot of people who do have a strategy or are thinking about having a strategy, they'll come to me and say, that's great, but how do I build everyday stories into that? Where do they fit with the content pillars and the strategy itself? And that's where it's, you sort of look at, or I always advise to look at the strategies or your content pillars as telling you essentially what to post. but using your stories as a way to do that. And that's sort of the method of how you deliver that message. having a strategy, I think is just the key for everything. And ⁓ without that, it's just really to know how to show up and what to be sharing that's actually going to be valuable. Because ⁓ a lot of people are on board with storytelling and a lot of people are starting to try and do it. And that's great. But if it's not aligned to your business and it's not aligned to what you're actually trying to do on social media, then it's just stories and there's still got to be a purpose behind them because it's still a marketing platform and it's still something that you want to help grow your business, even if that is just about building community or ⁓ doesn't have to be about driving sales of course, but whatever your goal or your purpose is on social media, ⁓ still want to make sure that your stories are aligned with your content strategy. Sarah Collins: You spoke about a self-published children's author and that the framework within a children's book actually has parallels with storytelling in business. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Emily - Telling Tales Media: Well, maybe I can start with a quick story on that actually, while we're here. ⁓ But written my first children's book about a little crocodile who was really nervous to try a gymnastics And she repeats this motto, ⁓ or this mantra the way through the story, I think I can, I think I can. And it's all about building her confidence so that eventually at the end of the story, spoiler alert, ⁓ she builds her she does the class, she loves it, and she can't wait to go back. And part of the purpose of doing it as slight tangent was just about helping to build up children's confidence and helping them to believe in themselves. So I published this story and a of weeks after I published it, I got an email from a dad who said that his daughter had been in the playground and she'd been really nervous to try the monkey bars. And he heard to say to herself, I think I can, I think I can. And she managed to make it to the end, but with a bit of help from him, I believe, ⁓ to finish monkey bars. ⁓ It was such a wonderful moment. did have a tear, I did cry. But it was such a lovely moment and it really made me think about what is it that makes it land? What is it that makes a children's story like that land? How did that message get through to somebody that I don't know? And there's a lot of parallels to creating social media content in a business sense. to answer your question now, So being really clear on who audience are and... like I've mentioned. And that's really true for children's storytelling as well, because children of all age require different things. And so being really, really clear on, what do my audience need? When I wrote my first book and I sent the very first copy to my editor, I thought I knew what I was talking about. I have two children of my own. And she came back to me and she said, this is great, but children don't think like this. So we need to cut a whole bunch of this out, because they're not going to think about it in this way. Now to us adults, we're thinking about things in a certain process. So to me, that made perfect sense. Children of five years old don't think like that. And so having a really good understanding of who your audience are, what they need, where they are, really allows you to sort of fine tune that messaging. Creating characters as well that they can relate to and resonate with, that's really, really key. ⁓ obviously a children's book, and in that instance, it was a little crocodile called Ellie, but In social media and business sense, you're having a hero and a guide, you like, with ideally the hero being audience and putting them in that position where ⁓ they are the centre of you're talking about so they can really relate to it and really resonate with it. And then putting yourself in the role of the guide and how you can support and help them. Just being really clear on what those characters are or what those positions are and what role you play to support them. And then obviously really clear, simple messaging, not being really quite ruthless with your editing. And I think certainly for platforms like Instagram, that's really important, ⁓ or can be. And then sort of thinking visually as well is quite important. So that's a huge part of writing children's books and how you're going to actually bring that to life on the page. And for social media, that can be really important as well. ⁓ Not always, can be depending on how you're. presenting your brands and your content. So there's a number of different ways that really resonate and being able to have a really sort of strong theme throughout that people can really relate to ⁓ that's memorable. certainly in my instance with the books I've done, ⁓ certain mottos certain things are repeated. And I think that's something else that people worry about a lot with ⁓ sharing content social is. ⁓ repeating the same thing over and over and they're worried that people are to get bored of what they have to say. And I always say to people, apart from the fact that's really important in marketing to be repeating your messaging so that it does land because on social media, your followers are never seeing all your content that you're sharing. And so being able to repeat that message over and over in different formats really important