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Killer Thriller Docu: A Killer Story: A Murder, a Conviction, and Decades of Doubt · Legally Brunette

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: I'm Jen Fessler. Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: So two people are murdered. A woman is convicted and
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: sentenced to life. But years later, a group of amateur
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: sleuths become convinced police got the wrong person, and their
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: investigation uncovers a possible alternative suspect. After six years digging
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: into the case, the filmmakers behind a killer story still
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: don't have a simple answer. In fact, they say they
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have convicted Dana Chandler. So did they get it wrong? Today,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: director Matthew Galkin and executive producer Josh Levine take us
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: inside a killer story and the murder investigation that refuses
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: to stay buried. Thank you for joining.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: Our pleasure.
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having us.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: So here's the thing. I loved this documentary. And I
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: don't say that to everyone. Just in case you're wondering.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I thought it was so great. I thought it was
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: great for so many reasons. I mean, I always say that.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: My cut's kind of gross, right?
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: It's about.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: people being murdered. So there's that. But, um, the way
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: the story was so captivating and just even like, I
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: don't know, I kind of fell for Joe Sexton. I
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: thought he was so funny. And so maybe because he
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: like dropped the F bomb constantly, but I just, which
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: I sort of like, I just thought he was fascinating
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: to watch and to listen to. And, I don't know,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: pen pal, the whole thing, I thought. And really, unfortunately, though,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: very unsatisfying at the end. But I don't think there's
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: anything you could have done about that. But all right,
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: let's just kind of jump in, please. Tell me what
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: led you guys to this story. Why a killer story?
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was reached out to by Story Syndicate,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: who's the production company that ultimately produced the documentary. This
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: had started with Joe Sexta actually receiving the tip from Eileen.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the whole genesis of this project was
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: literally how it was portrayed in the series. So Joe
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: brought it to Story Syndicate because I think he realized
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: quite early on that there is a great, you know,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: he's a journalist. So like, I think his first thought
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: is like, okay, well, this could be a great series
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: of articles or a great book or a great piece
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: of long form journalism. But he saw the layers in
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: here that were very specifically about true crime TV and
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: true crime entertainment. And I think he's, initial thought is like, oh,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I should bring this to a production company that I
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: have a previous relationship with. And Story Syndicate is Liz Garbus'
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: and Dan Kogan's production company. It's great, you know, sort
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: of top of the mountain for documentary work. So he
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: brought it there.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: They called me.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: I instantly called Josh Levine. You know, we were both
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: incredibly drawn in. The details of the case are certainly interesting,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: but then when you meet Joe Sexton... And you realize
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: what a phenomenal journalistic voice and character he is.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad it wasn't just me.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Okay. No, no, no.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: And then what kind of lens he can provide. You know,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: we were both kind of film nerds in a lot
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: of ways. And there's, there was a lot of, there
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: are a lot of layers to the story that, that are,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: reminded us of film noir, of crime stories from mid-20th century.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: There's sort of Coen brothers aspects to this story.
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: We're all just sort of like, okay, this could be
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: stylistically very interesting and rich for us to explore. I'll
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: let Josh sort of continue that.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Well, let me just, I'm just going to jump in
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: if you don't mind, because I made these notes. Just,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: there were so many in terms of stylistically, even like
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: when you guys zoomed in, I remember at the beginning of,
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: in the town on the sign that just said like museum.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: And do you know what I'm talking about? And it
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: was like this really haunting, creepy, stupid.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: It.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Really felt, this one for me felt like a story.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't key in as much the true crime of
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: it all. I don't know if that's a good thing
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: or a bad thing because I found there were so
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: many parts of it maybe because of Joe that were comical. And, okay,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: so tell me about that, please, Josh, I don't mean
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: to interrupt.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, it's fine. I think, you know, that was,
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: Matthew and I have both done a lot of true crime.
• 4:26
  Speaker 5: And so I think that was the draw initially when
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: we started working on it. There was a question when
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: it came to us of like, do we include Joe
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: or not?
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: It was very clear, of course we need to.
• 4:38
  Speaker 5: And so the layers of the story provided opportunity for
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: it to be more than genre. And so we talk
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: about it a lot as a story about a story.
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: And I think that was really the most interesting part.
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: And then when we met Keenan and Eileen, it all
• 4:56
  Speaker 5: became really their relationship and their work as a base
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: or sort of a lens to see this crime through.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: And a lot of the stylistic choices Because it is
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: a story about stories, because there are these kind of
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: crime slash entertainment layers to this, I think we approached this.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: Stylistically in a very deliberate way.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: More maybe in line with scripted narrative crime stories and
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: maybe less so in like a verite documentary kind of way,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: even though there are elements. in the series of that,
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: but it was probably more deliberate than almost anything we
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: had ever done before because of, because of the story that.
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: We were trying to tell.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Well, listen, you don't need me to tell you this,
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: but it worked. I found the whole thing. And again,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, I it's right. It's like a, it's a
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: little awkward to sit here and say that I found
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: the story about a true double homicide entertaining, but I
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: don't know. It's your fault, not mine. So anyway, that's
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: on you. um so and also the way that you
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: did highlight eileen and keen and i know i'm saying
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: that's how you say his name right keen yeah keen
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: um and their relationship and their i mean that has
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with this story and yet it does
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: it's i mean it certainly has to do with you
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: know the film and the way that this whole thing
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: unfolded they are the reason a big part of the
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: reason why right that that that Dana got focused on
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: again and they did so much work and all of that,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: but just them, they are, they're such an interesting couple.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: I still don't get it. Like, I still don't understand
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: what really makes these people tick. Like, what are you doing?
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Why are you so, and I don't know if it's,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: maybe it's Jesus. Maybe it's just their fascination for true crime,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: but they are fascinating. The obsession, right? I mean, do
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: they have kids by the way? They do.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: They have four sons.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, come on. You gotta be kidding me.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: And they're not allowed to speak of the Dana Chandler
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: case in the presence of their family.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Like you've lost your effing mind.
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: A little bit, yeah.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, certainly there is a layer of obsession there. But,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, they are true believers.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Still, are they?
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: They're full believers in Dana's innocence, for sure.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: But they are true believers in their faith. They're true
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: believers in justice and they're true believers in each other.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: And I think that there's something incredibly earnest and sweet
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: about the way that they love each other and the
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: way they truly I'm married.
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: Like, I don't have that. I don't have that relationship
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: with my wife. I love her.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: But like the way that they I mean, how many years, Josh,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: have they been married? 30, 40 and more.
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, they've been together since they were in high school.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got good news for you. Nobody has that
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: relationship with their wife or their husband. I haven't seen that.
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: You can call them insane, but there's.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: I like them so much.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong. It almost becomes aspirational to me.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: I don't believe in anything as much as they believe
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: in Dandana's innocence.
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: I find them quite moving.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: In a lot of ways.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: So do I. And even their story, they met, they
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: were babies, right? They were like, what, 15 or something ridiculous.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: And just the whole way down. One of the parts
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: of this that did upset me, though, was that I
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: really hope that Keene did not have an ulterior motive
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: for the accusations against Jeff Sutton. I wish you could
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: have just like left that out because I only want
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: to see him as pure and good. I hope that really,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: and I couldn't, I don't think so personally from having
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: watched it. What do you guys think?
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 8:49
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think that complication is one of the
• 8:52
  Speaker 5: things that's really interesting, you know, because that initially was
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: what drew them to the crime, their personal relationship, whether
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: or not that bias clouded them to the degree that,
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: you know, that they couldn't see the forest for the
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: trees here. I don't know, but that's certainly a big
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: part of it. And I think to leave that out
• 9:12
  Speaker 5: would have been a mistake because, Yeah. Because they're not
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: purely altruistic. Like they had this connection to Jeff Sutton.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: You're breaking my heart, but okay.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: I mean, you've seen, obviously you've seen all three episodes.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: So, you know, I think to Josh's point, one of
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: the draws was that this became much more complicated than
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: maybe it appears on its surface in episode one.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: There's just like layers. Oh yeah. We were, this was
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: rolling on in real time.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: So we were, we started filming this in 2021. early 2020.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: And so, you know, at that point, Dana had not
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: been retried. So when we jumped on the train, we
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: were just sort of experiencing these complications as they arose
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: through this case. So you know, the deeper we went,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: the more layers sort of revealed themselves. And the fact
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: that you couldn't directly just say Keenan and Eileen were
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: 100 percent altruistic and like just questioning their motives became quite.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: It was an interesting storytelling layer for us.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: That was a bummer. But also the thing is when,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: you know, getting the information that we did get on
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Jeff Sutton, it certainly seemed his DNA obviously was not
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: the hair that was tied onto the bullet, but then again,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: neither was Dana's, but it certainly seemed feasible, you know,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: that he had, I'm not saying, I am not saying
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: that he did in fact commit this, these murders, but
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: you know, he had a background sort of shady more
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: so than Dana did. Right. So, That's the thing with that.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: You're Josh. You're like, do you think Dana has a
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: shaky back?
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: No, I didn't mean to say it like that. It's,
• 10:52
  Speaker 5: I think, you know, they definitely had a case there
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: to be made against them. I think Dana had, you know,
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: I was shaking my head because I think Dana does
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: have a lot of stuff in her past that that's problematic.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Well, besides the emails, what besides obviously she didn't get custody.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: She's an alcoholic, although, or excuse me, recovering alcoholic, but,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: If I'm correct, Mike was also an alcoholic, right? So
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: they were both drinking.
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: They were both heavy drinkers, yeah. I just think they
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: had a contentious divorce. And I think there were a
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: lot of both allegations and proven instances where there was
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: a little bit of.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: Stalking or spying on him. There was a lot of rapid.
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: Calling to the house at all hours. I think certainly
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: Mike and Karen's families had issues.
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: So I don't think it was out of left field.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, but that contributed to their bias. Like it
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: has to be her.
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: And so I think it dovetails, you know, into the
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: story about who's telling what story.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: And who do you believe?
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: Because, you know, I think he and Eileen are correct
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: in that there are a lot of good reasons to
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: believe that Jeff Sutton had it.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: And I think a judge agreed, you know?
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously not enough, but in my mind,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: there's not enough, obviously, and I would think most of
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: the viewers would get on board with there is not
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: enough evidence.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: Here, right?
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: For her to have been convicted, although she was. So,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I wasn't in the jury, on
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: the jury, but that fact that she decided to represent
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: herself in real time and you guys had to watch
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: that happen, you must have died. Like if you're making
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: a film, okay, you're making it, I'm just picturing you're
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: making a true crime doc and this crazy person decides
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: to represent herself. Like what is better TV than that? Sorry,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: but that's my guess. Am I right?
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: You're true, you are right.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: And when we realized there was going to be a
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: third trial, you know, strictly from a storytelling point of view,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: I think the worry is like, this is just going
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: to be a redux of the second trial because she
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: had the same legal team. There were the same, basically
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: the same details that they were going to argue. And
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I think we all kind of figured, at least I did,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: that it would probably be another hung jury and she'd probably.
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: Walk and that would be the end of it. But
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: when she sort of pulled.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: That left turn and decided to represent herself, it was,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: we were, I mean, it was sort of like, let's
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: hang on for dear life.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: This is crazy.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: What it did do ultimately, which is, has been, had
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: been a creative challenge for us is because we don't
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: have a Dana interview.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: She didn't sit for it.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: And she didn't sit for a jailhouse interview for, For us,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: of course, we wanted to have her tell her own story.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: But given what transpired in the third trial, she did
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: tell her own story. She put herself on the stand.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: You know, we basically got Dana Chandler's story from Dana Chandler.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: So it afforded us as storytellers, it was a real
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: luxury in that way.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I hate to say like you lucked out. I mean,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: this is a true crime is so it's crazy, right?
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Because we're talking about, and I have to always remind
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: myself of this, of real, we're talking about real people.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: People were murdered here. This is not like all, but again,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: it's your fault. I just, the whole, the film is
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: very entertaining and crazy and frustrating. And I still don't
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: think she did it. I don't. Do you?
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: Oh, you have to.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Come on. Stop it right now. I'm not going to
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: hold you to it.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: What do you think? No, of course you're not. You can.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: I don't care if you do it or not.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: I really genuinely do not know whether she did it
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: or not. I would say if I were to place
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: bets that she would be a good bet. But without
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: there will never, ever be certainty. That's sort of what
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Joe is getting at at the end. It's like without evidence.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: How can you ever be certain either way that she
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: did it.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: Or didn't do it?
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: I know. Yes.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: You know, so I don't, you know, over the course of.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: So you wouldn't have convicted her. I feel like you
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: guys have said.
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: Zero percent chance.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Because if I were to do my civic duty as
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: a juror and the and the duty, the bar to
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: clear is beyond a shadow of a doubt.
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: Like, how can you ever convict her? Because of course
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: there's the doubt. There's no evidence. So it's all circumstantial.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: And the case against Sutton was all circumstantial. You know,
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: it's just it's it's so.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Well, this is one of these things that is so
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: fascinating to both Josh and I, and to Joe. This
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: is sort of like, it is just the deeper you go,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: the more elusive the truth becomes. And again, as storytellers,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: that's really interesting terrain to walk on.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Josh, you're not getting off the hook here.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: Well, no, I think it's also interesting.
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: I think similar to Matthew and Joe is that I
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: would not have voted to convict. There wasn't the evidence. And,
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: you know, her story really falls apart. So I think
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: she's certainly the one that makes sense the most. At
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: the same time, you know, not only the lack of
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: physical evidence, but just knowing what we know about the crime,
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: we don't know how it was possible for her to
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: have done it. I mean, there's just so many questions
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: about how she got into the house, how she would
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: have gotten an Uzi style weapon or Israeli made blue
• 16:13
  Speaker 5: tip bullets. It just doesn't make sense. Um, and so
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: the ending, if it's unsatisfying is that's real life, you know,
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: like we don't know what happened. And I think that
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: also plays into going against, you know, the true crime genre,
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: which is, you know, we didn't know.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Wrap it up.
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: So for the audience, the audience wants certainty and like,
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: we can't provide that. And so I don't think we
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: wanted to, when we didn't have it ourselves.
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: What did you want the ending to be like when
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: you were watching it? Where did you want to go?
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: I wanted her to get off. I wanted it. I wanted,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: of course, I wanted her free and clear. And I
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: wanted it. I wanted it to be a fact that
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: she was, in fact, innocent. And really, I think a
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: lot of that was because I hate to say it,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: but I always forget Keane. I always say his name wrong.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: I just love. Keenan Eileen and I don't want them
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: to be upset. That's what it goes to. Like you
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: fall in love with this couple and you're like, aw.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: But I mean, I feel like half the audience is
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: probably going to feel the opposite of you. They want
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: to put away because she seems guilty. I mean, in
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: the second trial out of a 12 person jury, seven
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: of them wanted to convict her.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I know, but I know, but I even watching it,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, she, yes, she, she dug herself a hole.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: She absolutely did.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: But she hadn't done it in the second trial she
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: had not dug herself a hole yet. Well, she wasn't
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: representing herself.
• 17:52
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, so she was– nobody ever got to the
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: bottom of what she was thinking with that. I know that,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: you know, Keenan and Eileen don't talk to her anymore.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: They won't pick up the phone. I think their children
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: probably said, you know, if you do lose our numbers.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: But I'm wondering if anybody got any insight into what
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: she was thinking. She knows her case better. I mean–
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: That's the only thing that would make me, that's almost
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: one of the only, not one of the only, but
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: the fact that she's so crazy to do that, that
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: doesn't help her case. Like you gotta be a certain
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: amount of nut job to do that.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: 100%. And I think you hit it.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Like she felt that she was the person who knew
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: her case best. Joe says it so well in the
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: third episode of just like, just, you know, knowing your
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: case and arguing it effectively in court are very different things.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: So like Dana certainly knew.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: The details, but she ended up utilizing the third trial
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: in a lot of ways to sort of settle scores
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: with people that she had wanted to directly speak to
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: for 20 years. And it was, it became quite ugly
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: to watch real, real slow motion train wreck.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Did you guys feel like when, you know, the guilty
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: plea was read all three times, she was just like, Oh,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't see any. She was like, all right, bye.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: She was like waving to her family. Did you notice that?
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Or was it just me?
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: No, she's not one of, she's not a human of
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: large emotions, at least, at least externally.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: Which makes her more than all the more fascinating, at
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: least to me.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I have to tell you that, you know, you did,
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: you put a lot of focus as you should have
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: on her daughter, which I, That was so interesting because I,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: at the beginning, and you tell me if this was
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: something you were going for, I was like, maybe the
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: daughter did it. I'm sorry for saying that out loud.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I hope the daughter never listens to this. Obviously you
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: didn't do it and you've been, through it. And I'm
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: so sorry. But again, your fault. I was like, is
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: it the daughter?
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: What made you think that?
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: You tell me. You made me think it. I mean,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: you went, you zoomed right in on her face. There
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: was a lot of her face. There was a lot.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: And I didn't have... The sympathy for her, I certainly,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: in a big picture, this is a film, so if
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I stop and I say this to real people, of
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: course I feel terrible for this person, but I don't know,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: you didn't play her, she didn't play her, I don't know,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: she didn't seem that sympathetic to me.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Was it because in the first 48 Hours episode, she
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: basically said her mother should receive the death penalty?
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: If she killed her father?
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: It's like, that's sort of the first thing you learn
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: about Hayley is that.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Thank you for reminding me. Yes. When, and yes, I
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: don't know. There was just, she seemed to have no
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: real feeling. And I guess I don't feel like I
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: had enough background in terms of what kind of a
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: mother she was. Maybe she was this, you know, total
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: monster as a mother when they were together. There's a
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: reason she obviously didn't get custody. So maybe I was
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: missing something, but Was that part of it, you guys,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: to sort of, I don't know, what was your focus
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: with her?
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what? Start to what?
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, Matthew.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: What are you hiding from me?
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: There's nothing.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: I'm hiding nothing. I will just say that we turned
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: over every possible rock.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: You think she did it?
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: No.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: But at the beginning of the process, let's just say
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: all possibilities were on the table of who could possibly
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: have done this if it wasn't Dana.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: You must be so impressed with yourselves because I'm picking
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: up everything you're laying down.
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: I am.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you're going to tell me not,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: but what do you mean? You thought that there was
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: a possibility that she was involved. You can't take it back.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: You just literally said we pulled out all the stops.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: I didn't.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: I don't think she was involved. I don't either.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: But at the beginning of the process of us making this,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: we did have to look at every possibility.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, but you're filmmakers, you're not detectives, you're not investigators. So,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: so what do you mean?
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: Well, we're not investigators, but it is our job to
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: try to, you know, tell all sides. And I think,
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: you know, we talk, or Joe talks a lot about
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: the dangers of certainty. So going into it, you know,
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: we knew the story that other media had told, um,
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: the police, what they told. And I think, you know,
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: we needed to dig into what Keenan and Eileen were saying.
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: So we looked at everything, um, But yeah, I agree
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: with Matthew. I don't think she was involved. I think
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: it's really difficult to watch kids, you know, point to
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: their mother as the one that killed their father, but
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: they truly believe that.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: When she said, that was, when she said, I still
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: love you, the way that she said it was so creepy.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: And again, I don't think she did it. I don't think.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: But it was this, almost this menacing, like manipulative.
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: You don't think she did it or you just wouldn't
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: convict her?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I definitely wouldn't convict her. And I don't, I don't
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: think that she did it. I wouldn't be, it's not like,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: you know, that's out of the realm of possibility for me.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: I think if you said she in fact did, I
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be completely astounded, but there's just nothing. There's nothing.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: There's no evidence except that she was wacky with her
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: ex-husband and i have about 20 friends that i can
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: tell you are the same that have left nasty messages
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: that have lost their minds after divorces i'm not saying
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: that they're killers but they have you know they have
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: done they've acted in wacky ways.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: We talked about that a lot making this i mean
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: you're basically zooming in on the worst moments of somebody's
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: life like post you know, when you're, when you're going
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: through a divorce, it's like, we've all, I mean, I
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: have not gone through a divorce, but I know many
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: people who have, and it's, it's ugly and it gets ugly.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: And if you, if you pull that stuff out in
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: isolation and put it in a court, like it's just
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: going to, it's going to read like you're an insane person.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: So, and now you add drinking to that newly divorced.
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: Angry, losing her, losing custody, custody.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: She has your kids. You know, I don't know. I
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: don't have a lot of friends who've lost custody, but
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: I do have a lot of divorced friends who have
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: lost their minds and and started drinking more. And that
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: doesn't help that none of them are capable of murder.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I mean, I don't know. Is that
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: is that, in fact, evidence?
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: If it wasn't for Dana's terrible storytelling around her alibi, terribly.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: certainly in the third trial. And the fact that she
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: has had two different alibis in the second trial, that
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: was really the, the linchpin for me where I was like, Oh,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: this is, this could be, this is a problem. And
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: this is like, okay, so if you knew where you
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: were and you weren't anywhere, you shouldn't have been, why
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: couldn't you just communicate that very directly to a, to
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: a jury? And she couldn't do it. And she had
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: 20 years to figure out what to say to a jury.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: And she, It's like, it's brutal to watch yourself disrupt
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: on the stand in the third trial. But like, it's,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: you know, so if you, everything that we just talked
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: about as far as, you know, being an alcoholic, losing
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: custody of her children, having a history of stalking Mike,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: that's all circumstantial. And then, but then when you add
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: to it, like I couldn't communicate the alibi cleanly.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: It becomes much more complicated.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: And her phone was off.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: But she sat in a cell for years and years
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: and years. And she still couldn't get it right. I
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: don't know if that would mean that makes her more
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: likely to be guilty or just stupid or crazy. I
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: don't really know. Like, cause the thing is, if you
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: did it, you would think you would hone in on
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: what you're going to say on those details, right? You're
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: not going to screw that part up. If you are guilty,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: you're very, very, very careful. Maybe that implies some, I
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, I'm just making this up.
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: And we, you know, there's like, we talked about, you know,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: could Dana have hired a hit man to kill Mike
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: and Karen? And like, then you start to turn that
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: idea over. And if she did actually do that, why
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: would she then turn her phone off and go into
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: the mountains for two days? Like, why wouldn't you basically
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: like create a great alibi for yourself? Like I was home, look,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I have receipts from the pizza I ordered or whatever
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: it's going to be. You know, it's like, so there's
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: this hole in her, schedule over that weekend that is
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: just it will remain a giant question mark forever.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Don't say forever i can't live with forever it will
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: get solved so i.
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: Would say odds are at this point it will be
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: forever but who knows.
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: Eileen believes there's still a miracle out there so you
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: know she believes.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: She's a true believer not dana but eileen i mean
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: i can't Well, what does they say to all of that?
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Like when you say to them after the fact, you know,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: I know they were so upset. They thought that she
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: made this, what she did this huge mistake by representing herself.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: But when she, when they saw her fumble, that didn't,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: they didn't have more questions after that. They didn't then say,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: you know what, maybe nothing changed for them. They just,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: from the beginning, innocent period, full stop.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: I think they'd be the first to admit that that
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: was not Dana's best performance. But I think the thing
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: that knocked them even more sideways was when Dana decided
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: to represent herself. Because it was a very direct, it
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: was a bit of a fuck you to them.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: All of the people that had.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Worked so hard and spent so much money and their
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: resources and their time for decades to help Dana. And
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: just to do that in a one five-minute meeting with
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: the judge, it was like all of that.
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: Work has been erased. That was a really hard thing
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: for them as well.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: Still is.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: Even if Eileen, or sorry, I was just going to say,
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: even if Eileen believed that, you know, she did lie
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: about her alibi, I think she's upset because there's a jump,
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: you know, and she even uses this term.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: It's like liar, liar, murderer.
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: Just because she lied doesn't mean that she killed Mike
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: and Karen. So I think even as problematic as that is,
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: she gets past it very quickly.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I would suggest that she did get
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: past it because she, I would not want to live
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: my life thinking I had devoted all of these years,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: all of these resources to something that turned out to
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: be a big scam.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: And you, you know, we have to give one thing
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: we haven't talked about with Keenan Eileen is like, they
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: single-handedly brought that prosecutor down, which is really as a,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: as sort of citizens. Um, it's, it's an extraordinary thing
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: to have done. And like, Jackie's paddling would probably still be,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: you know, uh, practicing law to this day if it
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: wasn't for Keenan Eileen. Cause like no one, no one
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: was digging through that case except for the two of
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: them that we know of.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:30
  Speaker 5: And what about the, um, Richard Bowley, who you see
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: on the stand a lot in the trials also retired.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Also a liar. What's with the liars? And where is
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: he now? I guess he has... No, there was... He's
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: not culpable. There's nothing. He's just living his life. Retired.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: A woman went to jail based on these lies. Do
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: you guys.
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: Are you with me here?
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: You think that too? Like, I don't get it.
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: I wish I had a clean answer for you.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's, it's a, it's a crazy thing to
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: have seen.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: And then it's a, it's also a crazy thing to
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: have watched the prosecutor in the second trial, put a
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: witness on the stand that was basically telling lies.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: What the hell was that? That's the thing. Like that
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: is the Terry Anderson, right?
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: Correct. Right.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Okay. The whole thing is so bizarre. And so that's
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: why I said it's a watching this documentary and I
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: have to remind myself these are real people. And so
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: I do always have guilt about it, but I really
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: enjoyed it, you guys. Well done. Seriously. I mean, if
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: that's your point, if that's what you're trying to accomplish here,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: you know, you're telling a true story. So I'm sure
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: that I would think that would be the most important thing, right?
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: To get the story right. But we're talking about a
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: bunch of crazy people.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: I agree.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: And there's, I mean, look, we didn't set out to say, hey,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: we're going to make some sort of dark comedy about
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: all of these tragedies in a row, but we do
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: have incredibly charismatic.
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: Characters in this.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: Yes, you do.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: They're characters, they're also real people, Keane and Eileen and Joe.
• 31:07
  Speaker 6: Yes, right.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: There obviously were crazy twists and turns that we never
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: could have foreseen when we started this production. So of
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: course we're going to track those, but ultimately, I personally
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: don't feel like it lands in comedic territory by the
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: end of episode three. I think that there is actually a,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: a tragedy at the center of this that I think
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Joe quite eloquently communicates.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: Um, you know, uh, he, for one thing, when.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: He's talking about, um, Dana cross-examining her own daughter and
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: he says, he just realized that this was a room
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: full of broken people and like that this case had
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: just decimated numerous families that had been going on. This
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: had been going on for 20 years. But, you know,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Josh and I had other things on our mind that
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: we wanted to explore with this series. Things like the
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: collision of criminal justice and entertainment. The idea of, you know,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: that just because....
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: You want a satisfying ending.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: You know, if we're tracking a case, like that's not,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: it might not be a satisfying ending for people.
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: That's real life. That has to be reflected in the show.
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: And there have been other true crime television episodes made
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: about this case that had a very specific, that had
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: a very specific ending, like 48 hours.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right. They wrapped it up.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: So it's, yeah, the need for.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: The need for certainty for all of the people within
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: this story, and also as a viewer of true crime,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: the need to feel like you have a tidy ending
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: to wrap up.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: This was not that.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: And we sort of knew it at the time. We
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: knew that this was a case that had no physical evidence.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: There's probably never going to be real certainty of who
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: actually did this.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: And so we.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Kind of knew that this was going to be an
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: ending that maybe some of the audience would find unsatisfying.
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: We find it, I find it deeply satisfying and it's uncertainty.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I'm happy for you. I do not. That's great.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: I'm thrilled.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: I'm thrilled that you're going to bed happy and sad. No,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: it's going to keep me up for weeks now, but
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: nothing we can do about it. Listen, you guys, you
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: have to tell the truth. It is what it is.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: The Terry Anderson of it all, that was just, I
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: feel like you guys stepped in a golden pile of
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: shit like one wacko after the next wacko what like
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: she's lying then you went to her house do you
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: feel bad about.
• 33:39
  Speaker 6: It yeah i feel bad about it okay like what
• 33:43
  Speaker 6: do you it was just unbelievable the characters were crazy
• 33:48
  Speaker 6: well done i am pissed but i would watch it
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: and probably will watch it again and maybe again and
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: i will tell all my friends to watch it so
• 33:56
  Speaker 6: thank you There's something to be said for that. Yeah.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it, you guys. Good job. Thank you
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: so much for coming on. Please come back because I
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: know you have other stuff going on.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Don't forget about me. Okay.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much.