Latest / Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment) / Cassy's Story: From Stripper to Strength..."I Won the Lottery"

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Cassy's Story: From Stripper to Strength..."I Won the Lottery" · Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)

• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Murders to Music podcast.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: My name is Aaron, I'm your host and you guys are in for another great show this evening.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Tonight we are going to talk to Cassie.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Cassie is a dear friend of mine.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Cassie is not somebody who you would look at on the street and think man.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: She grew up in a house with domestic violence.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: She grew up as a sexual abuse victim.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: She was a stripper.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: She is now an autopsy technician.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: She's got a great life and a great husband.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: But it hasn't always been that way In life.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we're dealt with circumstances that are thrown in front of us and we have to react.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: We can't always plan what we're going to do.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we have to be reactionary and it's the way we react to those circumstances that really makes us the person we are.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Sometimes, when life gives you lemon, you have to make lemonade, and that is the exact story of survival that we're going to hear tonight on this episode.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Hear the raw truth from the person who lived the life.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: The raw truth from the person who lived the life from domestic violence to stripper, to medical technician, to autopsy tech, to a loving wife and a mother.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Let's meet Cassie.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, of course, yeah.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: So, cassie, what I want to do is I just want to kind of start and let the listeners know a little bit about your background and kind of how you grew up.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: So walk me through those first early years of your life.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Tell me about where you grew up, where you lived, what you did, what your family dynamics were like.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Just take me there.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: So I grew up with my older brother, who's three years older than me His name's Eric and it was him and I and then our mom and our dad.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Our mom and dad got divorced like right, like when I was one or something, so like we never knew them as married, but they just kind of had this odd platonic relationship together.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: They were just kind of, you know, they just lived together Most of the time that we were growing up.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: We had odd kind of ins and outs where sometimes we would live with one parent, not the other.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: They would split up and live separately.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: It was a little bit of a washing machine, if we're being honest.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Um, but uh, yeah, so that was our dynamic.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Um, uh, I was born in Denver, lived in like Colorado and Utah for the first several years and then I've been in the Pacific Northwest for the rest of the time.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: My mom was really abusive, physically and verbally, emotionally, especially with me.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Emotionally, uh, especially with me.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Uh, she wasn't a peach to my brother either, but uh, she definitely was, uh, not, uh, nice to me.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: So give me an example of what some of those uh, that some of that physical abuse look like.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, um, uh, you know things like, um, she would ask me to clean the table and, you know, being a eight, nine-year-old kid, I cleaned the table, thinking I did a good job, went about my business.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: My mom would come across, you know, the other side of the house and drag me by my hair back to the table, smash my face repeatedly into the wooden table, you know, yelling all sorts of things at me.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Um, because I didn't do it right, because, as my best friend, mary, that I grew up with, uh, she was like, no, cassie, there was a crumb on that table.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: That's that's what she was doing that for.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: And and actually I didn't even remember that, uh, mary's the one that like, prompted back that story to me and I was like, oh yeah, that that did happen.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I actually, uh, blacked out a lot of, a lot of stuff and, um, my best friend Mary, who was there for a good amount of stuff, uh, over the years we've kind of compared notes and then been like, oh, wow, yeah, that did happen, that's right, that's right.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Um, so, yeah, my mom was not very kind, um, lots of, uh, physical stuff, stuff, usually like her flying off the handle about something.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Now looking back, you know, probably triggers of her own that got her spun into some you know episode that she probably wasn't even quite aware of what she was doing.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: But, um, but yeah, um, a lot of a lot of abuse.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Uh, my dad was the person that usually saved me.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of memories of him pulling her off of me and, um, you know, just kind of creating that space for me to retreat and be safe.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Tell me about your relationship with your dad.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: What was that like?
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Uh, I was major daddy's girl.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, he was kind of my steady.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Rock is as kind of unsteady as my home life was.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Uh, I would say that my dad was my anchor.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: He was the one that was always there for me.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: He always made me feel beautiful, smart, seen, important.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Um definitely was always there for me.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: If my mom was brazen enough to try and do anything when he was in the vicinity, he always came to my aid.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: But, um, you know, he worked a lot so he wasn't always around, uh, to save me.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: So, um, you know, in hindsight too, I think about, like he, he obviously knew how my mom was.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: In hindsight too, I think about, like he, he obviously knew how my mom was.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: So, um, that's kind of hard to reconcile that he was leaving me with her, you know, and knowing that he could just take me away from her and we wouldn't have that problem anymore.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: You know, um, but yeah, so I mean, he was in in every way.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: I was a daddy's girl and he was the doting father of his little girl.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Now, when we spoke earlier, you mentioned some sexual abuse that occurred early on in your life and you had a memory like around kindergarten.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Tell me a little bit about that.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we must have been in Salt Lake City, I'm guessing, and we had a skeezy guy named Mike that was, uh, I believe, babysitting me, um, he was, uh, at our house and, um, he was just really weird, tickled me like, just like very physical Um, and he made me really uncomfortable, but I was left alone with him, um, and he, you know, ended up kind of doing some stuff that was, you know, not not overtly awful as far as my memory goes, but but like weird enough that I was like huh, what, what is this?
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: This is very weird, um, and definitely, like you know, sexualizing me as, as such, a small child, um, and then he took off with our Halloween candy by stealing my mom's car the next day, which was a whole thing.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, so earlier when we're talking, you'd mentioned that, um, there was a looking back, what it was a sexual act that was perpetrated upon you at.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: You know that at that young age, the night before he stole the car, maybe the night that he stole the car there, and you mentioned that the next day when the police showed up, you had a kind of a guttural response to that.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me a little bit about that response.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: What you were feeling, and I think the reason this is important is because I see it in domestic violence relationships where an abuse occurs, the police show up.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: It could be for something completely unrelated, but there's just that level of fear in the victim.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Tell me a little bit about that.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: So the next day the police showed up because apparently he had stolen my mom's car.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: And when they came to the door, I remember being very scared when I saw the police because I thought that I was going to be in trouble.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Obviously, and part of that is because, you know, he was doing things to me that made me laugh, that made me, you know, giggle, or you know that made me tingle, and things that like, of course, as a you know, as a victim, you go oh well, if this was bad.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't feel that way.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: As a victim, you go, oh well, if this was bad.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't feel that way.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: And I remember specifically that this police officer took me aside and I remember my brother being right there with me and kind of being like it's okay, cassie, you can tell and they must have known that something was up with skeezy Mike, because they asked me specifically.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: They were like, did he touch you?
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: And I felt like, immediately I was like, ooh, I can't tell them what, what he did.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: And immediately I kind of felt like, ooh, they're going to know that like I was giggling or like you know, like basically that I, I, I had done this, like I was, you know, somehow a party to uh, to whatever bad thing had happened, so, um, so I had a really hard time with that.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: And um, and I remember specifically when they asked me, like did he touch you?
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: I I said yes, because I was like, oh, I should tell, yes, I want to tell.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: And um, and I said yes, and I remember he got so zoned in on the fact that I said yes that like it seemed like everybody turned toward me and they were like he did, he touched you, what did he do?
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: And and the fact that, like everybody's eyes went on me, I was like Ooh, and then immediately I thought like what can I say?
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Like what kind of touch that a grownup would do would be okay, that I wouldn't get in trouble.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: And so I was like, oh, he patted me on the butt, was like was my, my immediate, like, oh, I could say this and then they won't be mad.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: And so I remember lying and saying, oh, he patted my butt.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: And I remember everybody's relief that was like, oh, okay, that's all that happened, that's all that happened, that's great, that's great.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: And then they just moved on and left me alone, which I think was kind of my goal.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I really wanted to not be talking to a grown-up about what had happened, but I do remember feeling like like I was going to get in trouble for what he had done.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that you know that fear that you experienced, um, it's, it's pretty common and it sucks to have to experience as a, you know, as such a young kid and if you guys remember my Ashley episode, episode number 19, surviving the Unthinkable, where she spoke about some of these same things and you know that is a sexual abuse victim that experienced thousands of acts of sexual abuse upon her and she's talking about some of these same things that Cassie's already discussing.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: And this creepy Mike guy was he a relative of yours or an uncle, or why?
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: was he in the house, random person?
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: My, my mom has a very long history of just kind of creating instant, you know, familial, intimate relationships with people and then just being like this is your uncle Mikey now and he's like I've never seen Mike before in my life.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I have no idea who this is, but like all of a sudden he's entrusted alone with me.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: You know, like she did that all the time.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: And did that go on your entire life?
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Uh, my whole life, yeah, my whole life Um, different varying degrees of, and different things.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: I mean she, she did that a lot, like she had.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Just all of a sudden I have an uncle Tony and all of a sudden, uncle Tony wants me to be like the person that decides whether or not we pull the plug, and like I literally had to do that, as like a 20 something year old it, it.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: It's just like she would force me into these like kind of intimate relationships with people that she would claim to know, but I know very well that she didn't beforehand.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Um, and, yeah, mike was one of many.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: So you got married at 17, correct?
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Uh, it was just after my 18th birthday, just after your 18th birthday.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: So tell me about that.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: You got married fairly early.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Um, when did you move out of your mom's house?
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: So I finally left when I was 16.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: So I kind of went back and forth, sometimes like if my mom and dad weren't living together.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I would live with my dad.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Most of the time I would live with my mom and my dad would just be somewhere else.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: And when I was a teenager I think like basically 14 to 16 I was living alone with my mom in downtown Portland and that was kind of the final draw.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Was this really creepy guy?
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: I don't even remember his name, but I was 16 years old.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: She had this guy staying in our apartment, which was a one-bedroom apartment.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: I had the bedroom.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: She slept in the living room.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: I don't even know where she was, but this guy was just at our house all the time.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: And, uh, I came home from school one day and he had taken my bras and panties, put them all over the house and, like started saying just the most disgusting things to me, very weird creepy concerning things, and I just turned around and left and I was like we're not doing that, that's not happening anymore.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: And luckily I was with um, my first husband.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Uh was my boyfriend at the time and his mom and grandma were like yeah, we're not, we're not going to have you live in there with that sort of situation.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: So they let me move in with them.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: So then you got married, and how long were you married for?
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: I was married for I actually I think it was less than three years, it was like maybe two years and change.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: And what precipitated the end of that marriage?
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Why did you guys get divorced?
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: It was I put myself in a situation where I ended up being raped myself, in a situation, uh, where I ended up being raped and then, um, kind of the fallout of that scenario, um, I ended up sleeping with another person, um, and then ended up, you know, basically kind of imploding my marriage, um, yeah, and we're going to come back to that rape and that implosion and other stuff here in a second.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so from there, what happens next?
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: You get a new boyfriend.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: I understand.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Yep, yep, and he was the complete.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: So my first husband, who was also my first boyfriend, he was my first.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Everything was a lovely man.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: He still is.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: He's a great guy.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: He was wonderful, worship the ground I walked on, very agreeable to everything, never a harsh word, we'd never even fought.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Um and then, but he was a little passive, I will say Uh and so when I, when our relationship was over, I was looking for, I say, a hot caveman, like I just, I just really wanted the dumb, hot guy that was going to hit me over the head and drag me back to the cave, like I was looking for just a bro is what I wanted and that's what I got.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I precisely found exactly that.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: So how was that relationship?
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Um, he, he was awful.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Uh, it started off fine, of course, as as it always does, or why would we do it?
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Um, it was, uh, you know, a physical relationship at first.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: He quickly moved in, moved in with his friend.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, we had a physical relationship but weren't like emotionally that involved and uh, and then, of course, you know, that kind of went back and forth and I kind of ended up pregnant.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: And right around that time is when I kind of had my first hint that he maybe wasn't going to be an okay guy to spend a lot of time around, but before I could really do anything about it I was pregnant and then had that to consider.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, Okay, and then, uh, was there any physical abuse in that relationship, sexual abuse, anything like that you had to deal with.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: When we talked earlier, I didn't even tell you about the sexual abuse in that one.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: That that's a whole, that's a whole.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Nother episode.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Uh, for just him.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: He was special in that way.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Um.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, we, we very much had a very classic, like you know, uh, honeymoon phase.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Uh, initially, um, you know, he was nice to me and everything, and it wasn't until just before I got pregnant, you know he, finally, he said something.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: It was you know awful.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: He, you know, called me the C word or something.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: He said something terrible.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: And I'm not exactly a soft person when it comes to that, like, if you, if you call me a name, I'm going to say something.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: And I remember I turned around at the end of this long hallway in our apartment and and I was like you're not going to talk to me that way, and I just kind of stood up for myself and boy, he did come flying down that hallway at me.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: I remember just being terrified, you know, all six foot two of him was coming at me and I was certain that he was going to punch me.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: I remember just being terrified, you know, all six foot two of him was coming at me and I was certain that he was going to punch me.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: He had his hand raised, he was coming at me super fast and I just dropped to the floor in a little ball and was shaking and crying and I couldn't have even told you if he actually hit me or not, because I was just so scared that I don't even think I would have felt it if he did.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Um, and that was my first kind of inkling, like whoa, this is not a good guy, um, even though you know he apologized.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: He went and got me roses and walked through the rain and blah, blah, blah.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: You know, um, but I I bought it.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I went back and I was like okay, I guess we're okay.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: And but in my mind I was like no, I don't think we're going to do this, like we're finding our exit.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: And then I got pregnant and that changed everything.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: So I mean what I'm hearing, obviously from my prior life in my career.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: There's this domestic violence abuse cycle that some people are aware of because they're involved in it.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Some people are completely unaware because they've never had to experience it.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: But I'm hearing the abuse, the apology, the makeup in the honeymoon phase, and then the abuse again.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Would you say that was consistent in your world?
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, All right.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Very.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: And now you've got at least one child involved.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: You're with him for about three or so years, and then how did you feel your self-worth was during that time?
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Um.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: So, interestingly, I uh consciously I never thought like, oh, you know I deserve this.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Or oh, you know I'm I'm not pretty enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not like.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: I really don't have those like conscious kind of uh of digs into my self-worth.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: I actually am really weirdly confident in general.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: But the weird thing is that I did keep coming back to him and I felt like, because I stood up for myself, that it was okay, because I didn't just say okay, I guess you can talk to me like that, like I always talked back, I guess.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Um, so I felt like it was okay, um, as long as I stood up for myself and not realizing you know how dangerous that can be, cause you know he did get dangerous at the end.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Um, but yeah it, um, I I would say, if you had asked me, then you know how's your self-confidence cast.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: I would have been like I'm awesome, don't worry about me, I'm great.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: However, in hindsight, um, my behavior uh was definitely, definitely um, in line with somebody that had self-esteem issues.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I definitely kept going back.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: And earlier you had mentioned that there were times where you kind of learned to play games to cope in the relationship to either, you know and at the end it did get physical but to either avoid the abuse or just to get through day to day.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Did I hear you right?
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, cause you just don't.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: You don't you learn to not engage or like you know what will set them off?
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, you learn to walk on those eggshells, right?
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Um, I mean, I, I always tell myself that I think that we would have been okay for longer had I just been able to say, yes, sir, or, you know, just be able to, I don't know, I'm just mouthy and and so I always talked back and that angered him a lot and so, but, but you do learn day to day, even though I was, you know, as I say, mouthy, and if he would call me a name, I I like never took it.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: I always, you know, fought back, but, um, don't know that that was always the safest thing to do.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Um, but yeah, I think I you learn to like okay, we're going to drop that, we're not going to mention this to him, that'll make him mad.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: You know, you kind of learn to walk and play those games, uh, to try and keep down the drama.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: You know again, I've never had a domestic violence abuse victim on the show, but I've dealt with thousands of them over my career, and domestic violence abuse is about power and control, and everything I'm hearing you say is a power and control play.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, and it's just.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: It resonates so much with thousands of men and women that, uh or I should say women and men that I dealt with over the years Eventually you end.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: You end this relationship at about 24 and you move in with your dad.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Is that right, Correct?
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: So tell me a little bit about that.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: And why did you choose dad and how'd you guys live together?
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: What was that all about?
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Um, so I had burned all the bridges.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: So some of that power play that you're talking about was, um, you know, my, my baby daddy, as I call him um, he, one of his go-tos was well, I guess you need to find a different place to live.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: So me and my small child or children, depending on the time during the relationship, um, would be kicked out.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: So we were homeless.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Um, I had to go, you know, sleep in cars or find friends that would let me couch surf.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Um, and at varying points during the relationship, you know, people would get sick of me going back to him after they put themselves out trying to help me and um, you know it.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Just, it became, it became a stressor that, like, fewer and fewer people were willing to help me when he would kick me out.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: And it made it more of a, more of a power play, uh, that he had over me.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Because, you know, at first I was like, well, I got places to go, don't worry about it.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: And then, as you know, the honeymoon phase would start.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: I would go back to him.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: They would be like, but you just went back to him, I can't do this again, you're not doing it again next week, you know, and that kind of became the the dynamic and slowly those bridges were burnt, um, and I ended up finally when I left him, uh, uh, it was after a major physical confrontation, and I was, and, and it was actually my, my oldest son crawling after me when he was dragging me through the house by my hair and my son going mommy owie, mommy owie.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Like I realized that my son cognitively understood that his dad was hurting his mom and he was very concerned in the look on his face that he was like mommy owie, mommy owie.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my God, my son knows that he's hurting me.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: And I was like I can't do this anymore, we can't do this.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: And so I I talked to my dad and I was like I need a place to go.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: And we had, we had stayed a couple of times with him, but you know, his living situation wasn't usually one that was easy to take in a mom and two kids.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: And so eventually, like we had to kind of plan behind his back while he was at work, and eventually, you know, we cause we knew that the next one was coming, where I would come home from trying to take the kids to the park and all of my stuff would be packed in boxes out front and he would be like you're out, you're gone.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: And I knew that if I did something that he didn't like, you're out, you're gone.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: And, um, I knew that if I did something that he didn't like, that was what was going to happen.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: And uh, and I remember that, I started kind of planning, made a plan with my dad, and then, um, it was, I remember, uh, I had a friend I was in college at the time and I had a friend who had a child, one of my children's ages, and we wanted to go to the park together.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: But because he wanted to isolate me from people, he said that I couldn't go to the park with this person, I couldn't hang out with this person.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: She was evil.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Well, this person was a perfectly nice person.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: He just didn't want me to have anybody to tell me that what he was doing was wrong, anybody, uh, to tell me that what he was doing was wrong.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: And so, um, you know, one day I went to the park with this person, knowing very well that my kid's dad was going to be super upset about it.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: And when I came back from the park, lo and behold, all my stuff was in boxes outside the front door and he changed the lock and I couldn't get in.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: And I was like, well, I'm leaving and I have a place to go.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: And he was like what do you mean?
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: You have a place to go.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: And I'm like I have a place to go.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: And he was floored that I had a place to go.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: So you move in with dad, the kind of savior of your childhood.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: My whole life yep.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: And then, at 26 years old, you decide to you graduate school, yep, and your brother takes you to Iceland.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Yep school and your brother takes you to Iceland.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Tell me about how that Iceland trip changed your life.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Oh, it changed my life greatly.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Um, so my brother, uh, is a very worldly traveler person.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: He uh travels often.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Uh, he knew I wanted to go to Iceland.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: That was one of my major bucket list items and I had graduated more you know single mom, working two jobs going to college, and I had gotten a 4.0 for my degree and my brother was super proud of me and, as a present, he wanted to take me on a trip that I wanted to go on.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: So he got child care lined up for me and was basically like we're going to Iceland for four days and he took me on an adventure of a lifetime and it was quite literally the most life changing trip that you could imagine.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: I mean in in every way it has changed my life.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: What happened on the trip?
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Uh, I met my husband, glenn, and, uh, you know, the day that we got there we were supposed to do this tour.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: It was like an all-day tour thing, snorkeling in a glacier crevice and caving in all these like lava tubes, and it was like a whole day adventure.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: And the other group that we were going with was this group that included my husband and we all kind of hit it off.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: We spent the whole day together and I mean, the rest is history.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: We kind of started talking when we got home.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I fell in love hard and quick Him not so much, but I slowly drug him in and we've been together for 13 years.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: So did you guys live at the same place?
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Did you move across the country to be with each other?
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: How did that work?
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: So, just very coincidentally, he lived maybe five miles from where I lived back here and I lived in East Vancouver.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: He lived in Camas, washington, which are very close to each other.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: And when he said he lived in Camas, I was like that's great, I don't know where that is.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: And he was like where do you live?
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: And I told him the cross streets and he goes yeah, that's about five miles from where I live.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: And I was like oh, oh, okay, I had no idea.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I mean, just a happenstance, we were, we were uh, very closely, uh situated when we got back, Earlier, you said that you had won the lottery and I thought that was such a super cool quote.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, I did very much.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: No judgment in your past, just unconditional love.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: That's what I get from him.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's awesome.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Tell me about your time as a stripper.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Which is exactly how I hooked in that husband.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: No, I'm just kidding, that is actually while we were in Iceland.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Things were winding down and we almost parted ways, our groups and probably never to speak again, until my brother said hey, cassie, why don't you tell him about when you were a stripper?
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: And at that point my now husband goes all right, everybody come back one more round.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: We got to hear these stories.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: And, uh, and that's exactly how.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: And then I think probably, oh, maybe I'm exaggerating, but maybe like at least another hour, maybe two hours, of just me telling them all the ridiculous stories of when I was a stripper.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Um, telling them all the ridiculous stories of when I was a stripper.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Um, endeared him to me, I'm sure.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Um, so yeah it, I was for um a few years after high school.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so when did you start stripping and when did you end stripping?
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Um, I started when I just before my 19th birthday, Um, and I stopped when I got pregnant when I was 21.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Okay and uh, why were you stripping?
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: That's a really great question you have there.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Um, because it seemed like a.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: It seemed like a natural progression.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: If we're being honest, it seemed like a natural progression for me.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Um, I grew rather large breasts when I was 12 years old, and I mean so before I ever had any surgeries or anything.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: I was a 32 double J, so I'm not a big bodied person, so a 32 double J on a very small frame is nothing that you can hide, and so that was very much a central part of my life.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was, it was Cassie with the big boobs, it was.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: It was just such a part of who I was, um, that it seemed like a real natural progression.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, I had this friend that was also a dancer and, uh, she was like you would make so much money.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Your boobs are way better than mine, you know, just all that ridiculousness and it just seemed like, yeah, well, that makes sense.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Why would I do anything else, you know?
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: and it seemed like something fun to do, it seemed like a party and a good way to make money, which, it was so earlier you told me that you were monetizing your sexuality Absolutely, and which equaled some self-worth and some value.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: What were some of?
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: the other reasons why you were doing it?
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Let me ask that question what were you getting from it?
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: What was your reward for doing this?
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: I was the rock star.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I was the rock star, I was the cool girl, I was the party girl.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: It made people like me, it made people want me, it made me interesting, like it was.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: You know, as I feel like as a woman, our, our value very often is kind of put in to our beauty, our ability to please people, you know, and in all of those ways I mean having large breasts.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Since I was 12, I mean, I was always kind of sexualized.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: You know, from my very earliest memories I've been sexualized and it just made sense.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: And then, and a little bit of it was like, well, let's make them pay for it, let's, let's just make that happen.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Like, why do we do this for free?
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Why would?
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Why would you do it for free when they're going to pay you for it?
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Um, so it was a little bit of a power grab, I guess, a little bit of a, like you know, I get to control a little bit of it, which is funny because it's actually quite exploitative.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that there was probably a bit of that.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: But it was very much seeking approval, thinking that this was my currency with the world, that I could put it all on display and then everybody will just love me.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: In the sex industry.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: In the sex work industry, I mean obviously we have prostitution, we have things that happen inside strip clubs that would probably be frowned upon.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: How far?
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: how far down that road did you go?
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: There's a difference between stripping and then what happens in the back room.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, where were you at in that balance?
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: The?
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: champagne room.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Um, actually I was a stripper with morals is very much.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: I took really great pride.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: It seems silly looking back on it, but I took a lot of pride in the fact that I was a stripper with morals, that I did exactly what I wanted to do.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I never did more for a buck.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: It didn't matter if you were going to give me an extra $100, an extra $200.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, that's nice, I don't need your money.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: It like you couldn't buy me, you couldn't buy that part of me.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: But I mean, looking back on it, I was still.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: I was still very much getting paid for, you know, showing things off.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: But I really did feel quite morally superior, if we're being honest.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Um, because I I took the morality of what I was doing very, very seriously.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I was, I was a little bit of the like strip club morality police which probably, thinking back on it now, made me a bummer to a lot of people.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Um, but I really felt good about the fact that I was like Nope, you can't, you can't pay for that part.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: That's just not something I'm going to do.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Drugs and alcohol are obviously something that's on that scene.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Did you go down that road?
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Um, toward the end a little bit, um, I did, I I found, uh, again, I'm quite proud of the fact, like, looking back on it, especially, uh, I am quite proud of the fact that I avoided a lot of the drugs and stuff that you know, cause they are rampant, it's everywhere.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Um, I did toward the end I did smoke pot, um, I did, I did drink a lot toward the end I was very much medicating, uh, toward the end of my marriage and just kind of you know some traumas that happened at the end of my marriage there that I I in hindsight was very much medicating, in hindsight was very much medicating, um, but even in, even in uh, that kind of spiral it was still you know, marijuana and alcohol, which you know many a life has been ruined with less but, um, but I did, I avoided all the cocaine, all the meth, all the you know I mean heroin, those things, especially like in the early two thousands, huge.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Those things, especially like in the early 2000s, huge, huge on that scene.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: So I am proud that you know again my morality, I was on a moral high cloud, if you will that I avoided all those things and that I never got sucked into them, because there was definitely a time where I was in danger of kind of getting sucked down that drain, and I avoided it very narrowly, might I add, but, um, you know, getting pregnant really saved me and pulled me out of that.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: So in the uh, tell me about being arm candy.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, being arm candy.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Um, so, toward the, toward the end of, uh, my dancing career, if you will, um, I started being arm candy for there was a guy that came in all the time that um was like hey, I got this really important party to go to this weekend.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I just really want a cool, beautiful girl to go with me.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: You really, you don't have to do anything.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: This isn't like, you know, it's not escorting, I'm not asking for anything Cause I'm like good, cause it's not going to happen, right.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: But he was like no, it's all all on the up and up, you know, it's just basically like a date, but you just have to be with me, just be my arm candy.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: And that was kind of the phrase that I stuck to.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: It was like okay, it's just an the time.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: My first husband he knew all of these things that I was doing.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: By the way, he knew that I was a dancer, like he was a part of that decision when it started.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, he was aware of all of this stuff.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: He did forewarn me with this like arm candy thing.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: He was like are you sure this is a good idea?
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: And I was like it's fine, you know, I felt like I knew the guy, of course, um, you know, cause he?
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: I'd seen him many weekends.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Of course I knew the guy, um, and so I, I did it.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Uh, I was, I was his little arm candy, and that actually is kind of what precipitated the events.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Um the first, I want to say it at least one time.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: It was completely platonic.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Fine, exactly what it was advertised to be.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: You're talking about the date.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, being the arm candy, the work that I did, which was just getting gussied up and going out and just being cool with this guy at a party.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I can't remember if it was the second or the third time.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I really can't remember.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I can't remember if it was the second or the third time, really can't remember.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: But we went to the party, it was as advertised, fine.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: But of course then there was the after party at the house and it was at his apartment with his friend, who I also kind of knew because he was also a person from a club, and I just very naively was like oh yeah, this is fine, I'm not ready to go home yet.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: We had a great time, this is fun, whatever.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: And just kind of was like sure, let's go have a drink at your house before you take me home, which in hindsight was incredibly stupid, um and, and I did end up getting raped.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: So it was a, and, if I understand correctly, that was kind of the beginning of the end of your marriage.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, correct, correct, because I had only ever been intimate with my first husband.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: He was my first everything.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: You know, as funny as that sounds, that I was like I was a stripper, but I had only ever slept with one person or even like really done anything with one person.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: It was true and I really was proud of that and it was important to me.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: My monogamy with my husband or I shouldn't say monogamy, because that's not exactly right but the importance of the fact that he was the only man that I had slept with was important to me.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Um and uh, after I was raped, I um, had somebody come pick me up.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Uh, that was uninvolved, that my husband didn't know because I was very scared.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: And um, and he came and picked me up and was was, as a gentleman, going to take me home and I told the man, like I can't go home, I can't go home, and at the time I actually, in my mind, I thought I cheated on my husband.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: That's what I thought.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: It actually took me many, many, many years.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: I think it was probably a decade after that.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: That was the first time that I called that a rape.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Um, because I entirely blame myself.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: I was a stripper that put myself in that.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: You know, like, of course, I shook it in front of this guy's face for weeks and weeks and then I gave him this you know, like, I was paid to tease, that's what I did, right.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: And so who, who, objectively, is going to say that that wasn't me asking for it, right?
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Like in my mind, I'm like this is I did this to myself, um, and there was there was, like you know, some sort of drug or something, or like I was too drunk, I don't know, but, um, there was, there was some substance, uh, involved, because it was.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: I woke up and was naked and very confused and I just remember him saying some really awful stuff to me and he was like, go clean yourself up.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: And I was like what happened?
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't even know what happened and I was so scared and then I hid in the bathroom until my friend came to save me.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: But I remember, like, when I told my husband.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: So the short version is basically this person came and saved me.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: I asked them to take me to their house, not back to my house, didn't want to face my husband, didn't want to look him in the face, and the person that saved me was an absolute gentleman and I kind of decided that I was going to sleep with him because I wanted to take control of the situation.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: I was like, well, I already cheated on my husband.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: I'm going to cheat on my husband with somebody that I choose, because, even though I didn't feel like it was a rape at the time, I know that I didn't choose to sleep with that person.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: I felt like it was my fault, but I didn't feel like I chose.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: So then I was like I'm going to sleep with this guy instead.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: So basically, when I, when I did go home to my husband, my exact words to him were um, I cheated on you twice and that's what I told him.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: And it took I mean, it was literally 10 years later the first time I talked to my ex-husband and I told him I was raped that night and I I did choose to sleep with the second person.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: But apparently that's a very normal, a very yeah, none of this is normal, but apparently it is a very common response to sexual trauma for somebody that has an out of control sexual experience to the next time that it feels safe for them to do that, to take control and decide that they're going to do it the way they want to do it, and that's exactly what I did.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Gotcha, you know, as we're telling this story, we kind of told the story beginning to end to get current.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Then we went back and we now we're exploring some of the some of the things along the way, some of the bumps in the road along the way, and that was one of them.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: That gets you up to about 24, just so we're running this parallel track about 24.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: So, uh, your marriage is ending.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Remember, at about 26 is when you graduate from school.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: So there's a couple of years.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: There you're at school, 26, you meet Glenn and that begins.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: You know your last 13 years, or whatever it is, of marriage.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Um, but there was a we this we're going to talk about PTSD and in there there was a catalyst.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Tell me about that catalyst that got you to having some symptoms of PTSD.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: And then what happened?
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, so I did live with my dad from like 24 to 26.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: I found out shortly after getting back from Iceland, just at the beginning of my relationship with my husband, glenn.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I found out that my dad was sexually abusing one of my children, which was absolute left field for me.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: I had no idea that my dad, my dad, was never inappropriate with me, never inappropriate that I knew of, and even in my children's lives.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Up till that point I mean, I had no clue.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: It completely blindsided me.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: And then the subsequent collapse of that relationship, for obvious reasons, was absolutely devastating to me because my dad was the only person that was a constant for me.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: That was my safety and he was that way my entire life right up until that point.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: And so that was a complete and utter devastation.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Luckily, glenn and I's relationship at that point was it kind of hurried, my moving in with him much to his chagrin, but we did move in with him shortly thereafter and so he was kind of there picking up the pieces of that scenario, and so he was kind of there picking up the pieces of that scenario and then, very shortly after that, I found out that my dad, who had raised me my whole life actually was not.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: My dad, um, and had never told me and, in fact, people in my life that knew that my dad was a pedophile, um, and never told me, even when I was about to move in with two small children.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: You had essentially been living this lie for your entire life, yeah, and my only safe person isn't real it.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: It completely broke me.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: What about your relationship with your mom?
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Um, my mom at that, at that point, when, uh, when I moved out of my dad's house and, you know, severed my relationship with my dad, I I kept going back, um, as long as I wasn't living with my mother.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: I kept going back to long as I wasn't living with my mother.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: I kept going back to well, I'll give her another chance.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: I'll give her another chance.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: I always thought that if I could be big enough that I could make it work with her, that I could just set the boundary, just so so that it would work with her.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: And in fact, she was trying to help me in her own sick way.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: It was actually the reason I found out that my dad is not my biological dad is because she thought it would be helpful, because I was so upset, obviously, that my dad had had sexual abuse when my children.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: She thought it would be helpful to say, hey, he's not your real dad, he's not related to you, so isn't that better?
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: And I'm like what is wrong with you?
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: So he's not my?
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: And that started that whole cascade.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: So shortly thereafter I actually started having symptoms of PTSD, which I, you know now, knowing what I know now I've had, you know, complex and chronic PTSD for most of my life.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: But I would say that I was, you know, really able to manage it.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: And I was, you know, I'm a great survivor.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: I always have been, and I was in survivor mode my whole life and I was doing a great job of doing just that surviving.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, my mom tells me he's not actually your dad, and that just threw me for a whole nother loop.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, you know, glenn's out of town.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: I'm alone in this big house and I'm, you know, seeing people.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: I see shadows in the peripheral of my vision.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: I really, I thought it was schizophrenic.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: I thought that there was some latent, you know, major mental illness.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: That was.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: That was all of a sudden, you know, popping up and I was, I was terrified.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: I was hearing things, I was, uh, feeling things that weren't real.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: I was seeing things that weren't real and it was, it was absolutely terrifying.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: And did you go and get uh seek some help and ultimately got diagnosed right?
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Yep, yep.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: So you know, glenn helped me with that.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: I was like I don't know what's going on.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I'm seeing things and, um, you know, we went and talked to a doctor and they were like, oh yeah, you got PTSD.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: And I was like, no, but you don't understand.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: Like I'm seeing things, like I see people, and I'm seeing things and things are coming after me and they're like no, that's PTSD and it like it took so many times of this doctor telling me that is PTSD.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: And I was like but I know what PTSD is, that's not it.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: I'm like and and there were parts of it where, you know, she was describing to me, like you know, flashbacks and stuff like that.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, I have, I do have that Like that happens sometimes too.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: But I'm like you're not hearing me that I'm seeing and hearing and feeling things that aren't in this world.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: And she was like, yes, you're having PTSD episodes.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, and you're completely normal and your brain is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Your brain is so good at protecting you.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: That's exactly what it's doing.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: And I was just floored by that, so did you end up getting therapy.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, I did do three years a hard therapy and, um, when I say I won the lottery, uh, with Glenn, my husband, I did in many, many ways, uh, you know, just some of which being that, uh, you know, I had the support and ability to really spend the time, uh, to get myself better, um, and I had the resources to do that, which I am forever grateful for as well.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: But I did three years of pretty intensive therapy.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I did individual work at least once a week for that three years, sometimes two and three times a week, depending on the you know the period of time, because sometimes, when I was like really into some hard stuff, I needed a lot of extra help, um, and also during that time, I was doing like classes, um, I was also doing group therapy, um, I, I did a lot of stuff in that three years.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: So, you know, in my last episode, episode 29, I spoke about policing and antidepressants.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Um medication, was medication ever a part of your world and, if so, was it necessary or was it something that was just kind of like let's dope her up and move on with life?
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: So one of the doctors I saw had this really good saying which I agree with wholeheartedly, which is pills don't teach skills, which is extremely true.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: But with where I am now looking back, medication was pivotal.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: It was absolutely necessary for me to be able to calm Because, if you think about the PTSD being your fight or flight response, to being your parasympathetic nervous system just revving up and taking over your nervous system, you need to be able to calm that down in order to be able to use your frontal cortex, to be able to use the part of your brain that has critical thinking, that is able to learn, that is able to grow, and when you don't have access to that part of your brain, you can't do it.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: So, in in this kind of a scenario, it is incredibly important and what and was really important for me to to start off with medications that were able to help calm down my my nervous system, to to be able to um help my symptoms so that I was able to do the work that I needed to do.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Um and I I am not currently on any medications um, which which is relatively recent I mean this is like a 13 plus year journey for me Um, and I mean I'm talking like the last five, six months is, like you know, when I've gotten off of all medications, um, which was kind of also precipitated by a cancer thing, which you which is for another time.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: But yeah, definitely medications were incredibly important.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: I did find it difficult because there is a lot of stigma when it comes to psychiatric medication.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: I also have OCD, which really revs up, especially when my PTSD is not well regulated.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: That's kind of the first thing that starts to show its head is that it becomes very obvious that I'm not well because my OCD is not well controlled.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: So, definitely, you know, medication played a really big role in that initial ability for me to be able to set aside, all of you know, the um, the nervous system stuff that gets in the way of your brain, being able to learn skills and once, once you calm that down and then do the work, cause the work.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: The work part is the hardest part, um, you know, doing the therapy and learning all the skills that you need Um, but once you're, once you're able to use medication to get you to where you need to be, then it's, then it's a balance right.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Then it's, you know, depending on what's going on with you.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: You may need, you know, more medication at some times than others.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: You know some.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Some things might help you, some might not.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: It just kind of.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: It just kind of depends on the person.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: But overall I would say that especially, I'm sure, in police work, there is really important that you have some sort of medication to help you be able to access the learning parts of your brain.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: You know it's unfortunate, but I was talking to my therapist this week about this.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: It's unfortunate, but with the PTSD and I've mentioned this in other episodes, but it just came up again this week for me and my journey PTSD you're weak, you can't cope, you are, you know.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: Whatever the excuse is, whatever that stigma is, you're weak, you can't cope, you can't deal with life.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: You know life is hard.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Wear a helmet, all these types of things, ptsd and trauma.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: Trauma is the relationship we have with a set of circumstances that's been in our lives or near us and that is like a death by a thousand cuts and it's injuries to the brain that we can't see If we break our arm or we blow our leg off or we get shot or we have cancer.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Those things people can see, they're tactile, they can reach out and touch them and feel them and see them and that is an accepted injury.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Ptsd is so often not an accepted injury in a personal world, in a corporate world, in a police world.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: You're a weak ass and you need to suck it up and move on.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: Get over it.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: And I spoke about medication in my last week's episode.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: There is a huge stigma with it, but it's absolutely life-saving.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that and I'm going to wrap this up I'm going to wrap this up here in a second but one of the things I want to talk about is your current role.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: You currently so.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: You lived a life of trauma, sexually abused from a small age, sexually abused through a relationship into the sex trade, sex work, raped into there, lost a marriage because of it.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Because you're trying to gain control back, come out of it, turn to the only person that you ever really leaned on, that's your dad for a couple of years, go off to vacation, meet your new husband, only to learn that your dad, who you've trusted forever, is sexually abusing your kids.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: After that, you sever that relationship, try to turn back to mom.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Mom doesn't understand and, instead of validating you, throws it back into your face.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: Now you have got a guy who is holding you during your implosion, helping you put the pieces of the puzzle back together and, at the end of the day, you're now into this 13 years of marriage.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: We all know that marriage has hard times and good times and bad times, like it's a whole roller coaster on its own.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: But on this other side of life, after this life of almost hell, on the other side of life, you're now like I don't want to say like you're a productive member of society, like you got a job, but I mean you're doing shit that makes sense, right, and you got this autopsy job.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Let's talk briefly about your autopsy job.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: Tell me what it is you do and not too much details, and then I want to share a little bit with you, and then we're going to wrap this up, okay, so I'm an autopsy technician, so I do all the stuff, stuff, that you would think.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly what you would think yes, so when we were talking a second ago, you said a couple things that really concerned me.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and those are this so you haven't been doing this long, right?
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: How long have you been doing this?
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: The autopsies I've been doing since April, so that's about six-ish months.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, april so that's about six-ish months, okay, and you said there were things in your you were going to have to face whether that was child autopsies or sex abuse or something like that and you anticipated these things, but then when you got there, they weren't as bad as you thought and they almost didn't affect you.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Is that what I understood?
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: You know, in talking to my husband, you know, cause I'm I'm very, I'm very interested in medical things.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: I'm very interested in like physiology and anatomy, um, you know, procedures, stuff like that.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: That's always been a passion of mine, um, and so I.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: But I was worried cause I didn't ever have a lot to do with, you know, the death industry.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: You know death and actual, like any of that stuff.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: And so I did talk to my husband a lot Like when I took this job.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: I was like okay, so let's think about what's going to bother me.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: If I see it Like, you know, sexual assault, child abuse, children, you know, like, of course, all of these things.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: That if you could imagine yourself doing this job, what would bother you?
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Right, the imagine yourself doing this job, what would bother you, right, the most besides the work itself, right?
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: And you know, I started to think is there something wrong with me?
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Because at every, I mean literally, step one was can I be in the room with a autopsy happening, like, like, can I even be close to that happening without it bothering me?
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: And sure enough, I was like yeah, not a big deal at all.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: And then the next thing was like, oh, what if it's somebody that's close to my age?
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: What if it's a woman?
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: What if it's you know?
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: What if it's you know somebody that kind of looks like somebody I know, or what you know it?
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Just all of these kind of milestones in my mind that I thought, ooh, but would it be okay if?
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Would it be okay if?
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: And, and.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: As those milestones came, I was like, oh well, gosh, is there something wrong with me that it's so normal?
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: But I think that, you know, I have ADHD as well.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: But like, being somebody that grew up with a lot of trauma, that has done a lot of trauma work, and also being somebody that you know thrives with ADHD, like this is exactly the type of work that we go into right, because you're, it's like stuff hits the wall.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: I'm at my best, like, if things are sideways.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: I'm at my best, like, if things are sideways.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: I'm at my best I'm upright when everybody else is sideways, and and so, you know, I find the same thing with working in urgent care, which I also do.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, a lot of people I work with in urgent care also were like paramedics, they were also EMTs, they were also, you know, er nurses and stuff, and I mean we all are in the same vein.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, and autopsies are exactly that, and it's just another version, so I hear you I hear you.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: It concerns me because, one, you're a friend of mine but, two, I've been there and if you've listened to some of my earlier episodes, especially the one oh, what episode was it Standby?
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: It's the one where I dealt with my body.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: So, episode number three, I believe, frozen Justice.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: Let's see.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's episode number one, frozen Justice.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: A 13-year-old's experience with death.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah, if you listen to that, which?
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: I have, yeah, and you know where I'm going.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Then.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: And as we go through life, as I went through my careers, I was anticipating oh my God, what was it going to be like with that first dead body?
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden it's like I'm rolling the body over and I'm palpating and doing that kind of stuff.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: What is it going to be like with this?
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: And then I'm cold and at first I thought I was okay, but it wasn't until a career of that that I realized that my nervous system just wasn't active.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: I was numb and all that shit seeped in through my cracks and cracks and crevices and just saturated my internal sponge.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: Um, so be careful of that, you know, deal with it in therapy.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: It may not be affecting you today, but from a guy who made his career in the death industry, um, it's, it can be rough on you at the end, you know.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: So just be super, super careful, and I don't want to try to impose my issues on you.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: Everybody's different, but man um, making a life in the death business is a.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: It's a tough way to go, yeah.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: I do have to say that I think so.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: Number one, I do actually listen to your podcast and I do think about that actually, and very often you are the person that comes into my mind because you are a close friend of mine, and the fact that I know that you know you were a homicide detective I mean, you saw atrocious things and knowing how it has affected your life, I am mindful of that.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: I think also like it's kind of an interesting thing because you started so young and then, like you said, it seeped into your cracks and crevices and stuff and I feel like I was already a sponge that was kind of already doused and now I'm just, like you know managing it, um.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: But I think that I'm also in a special place where I'm very mindful of this stuff and especially because you know, knowing people like you listening to your podcast and stuff, um it I am mindful of, of what's going on and I try and head it off whenever possible.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: But I also like that I work in regular medicine, I work in urgent care, so I get to see people who get to walk out with their you know hand in a splint and it's completely fine, and there is something for me personally, that is really special about autopsies because I don't deal in death investigation.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: So a lot of things and like, if you, if you listen back to your podcast, which I again do listen to, um, it's dealing with the families, right it's?
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: it's hearing.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: It's hearing the mom's cry.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: It's hearing that, like all of those things I get to gloriously avoid, all of that.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: For me it's a.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: It's a person that comes in.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: Everything's already done.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: There's nothing that I can do to change this situation.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: This person has passed, that's it.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: And now my job is to find out what happened, to help find out why this happened or how this happened.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: That's really all it is, and I think that I'm in a little bit of a privileged situation where I'm in the death industry but I am very closely held in this medical side of things, where I'm in the death industry but I'm I am very closely held in this medical side of things where I really, unless I go digging into the investigation, I have nothing to do with families, with the sadness, with the person this person used to be.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: It's a very narrow focus, which which helps with um, with the difficulty level, I think.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: But I also am mindful because I know that I know exactly what this does to people and I'm proud that I can do it.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: I don't know how long I'll be able to do it, but I definitely will be mindful while I do it.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think that we're not meant to see these things as human beings.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: No, nobody is.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: But somebody's got to do it right, Absolutely.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: So I thank you for that and I want to thank you for coming on the show tonight and sharing your story.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: There's ups and downs, there's things that people might not be proud of, but you came out here boldly and just shared your story to help people and understand.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: You know, ladies and gentlemen, I don't know where you're at in your journey or where you're walking in your life is, but maybe some of this stuff resonates.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: Maybe you're the one that's had that domestic violence cycle, or maybe you're the one that has a stigma towards medication, or you feel there's a stigma towards it, or maybe you're the one going down making those poor decisions, or maybe you're on the other side of life.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: I guess the whole message that I want to say tonight is that, no matter where you are, there is life on the other side, just like for me, there was life on the other side.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: I could have taken my life, I could have done many things, chose not to, and there's life on the other side, and again, our pain is not without purpose, and I just want to convey that message.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: So, cassie, thank you so much for coming out and sharing Over the next few weeks.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to be doing a recap.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be doing some bonus episodes, have some more outstanding guests on here, so thank you guys.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: So much for listening to this one hour, two minute and 42 second podcast.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, that is the Murders to Music podcast.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you.