Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #155: Joel Rants about Farm Raids on Nourish Co-Op and Amos Miller

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Episode #155: Joel Rants about Farm Raids on Nourish Co-Op and Amos Miller · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's interesting is both of these farms have voiced a revelatory notion, well, we just didn't realize they were that serious.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Amos went and signed up, signed up, you know, a judge's cease and desist order.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Just he says today, well, just to just to get out of the courtroom.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, okay, whatever.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: May I sign something.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Man, let me tell you something, Cena.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: When when a bureaucrat pushes something in your face under duress and tells you to sign it, you never sign it.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: You never sign it.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: And fortunately, at Nourish Co-op, the folks there didn't sign anything.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's going to be very helpful.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough, and I'm here with our favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: And today, Joel has some insight for us.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's a nourish co-op in Michigan that seems to be following a similar fate as Amos Miller in Pennsylvania.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so Joel is going to walk us through that and kind of compare and contrast these situations and give us an update on what's happening.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Joel, I'm all ears.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm ready to learn from the master.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, well, uh, I I wish I knew more.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: These things are, you know, when you start into all these um these food regulatory raids and the machinations and the negotiations behind the scenes, most of us are, you know, a couple of a couple of days, you know, days late in in actually what's uh going on.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um so so here here's kind of here's some of the new thoughts.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: If if you're many of our listeners have followed the Amos Miller story in Pennsylvania, and his right now seems to be seems to be punching through out the other side.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's had a couple little wins, and um, and it seems to be punching through.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: He was a major topic at our last uh rogue food conference here because we had the uh the private membership association um support team who developed his his PMA, his private membership association material.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that was very, very helpful.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: But in what's happened recently here, this spring, is another raid in Michigan that has kind of taken the local uh food movement uh by by storm.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the raid on the nourish cooperative in Michigan, uh Ashley Armstrong, who started the Strong Sisters.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, she and her sister they call themselves the Strong Sisters, S-I-S-T-A-S.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, a little bit edgy there, but um they so they they they came to this farm thing uh not very long ago, just you know, in in after after COVID, and um and started uh selling pastured material uh livestock, and their main emphasis was low PUFA, low polyunsaturated fatty acids, low PUFA material, which meant they were trying to substitute um uh, for example, meat for grains, for proteins and things like that in chicken feed.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and to make a long story short, they just got raided a couple months ago by Michigan Department of Agriculture.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um in the fall, they got raided the first time and had to throw away 15 hogs that were destroyed.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then this spring, uh 90,000, 90, 90,000 pounds of uh raw dairy.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um actually, no, I'm wrong.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: $90,000 worth of raw dairy, not pounds.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and they they had grown so fast that they they started nourish co-op uh and started working with other local farmers to supply them.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the the kind of new thought that has come through my mind watching the both of these stories, the Amos Miller story and his raids and his uh trials and tribulations, and now Nourish Co-op.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, a couple of things.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Both entities, both Amos and the Strong Sisters, were completely, shall I say, naive.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and they admit to it today.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm putting words in their mouth.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they were completely naive about the seriousness of government food safety regulators.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and this is something that I run into, Cena, uh, every day, it seems like, when people hear me, well, for lack of a better word, rail, you know, against the the the um the food regulators, and and they think I'm an anarchist.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: They think that well, I just want I just want spoiled food.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: I want people to die of salmonella, you know, that that that I just have no concern at all.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you know there's dirty food?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you know there are cheaters?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you know there are bad people out there?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, I do, but the but the overall effect um is is that these folks are overzealous in many ways, especially on small enterprises.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the other common thread to these two outfits is that they both had no local support.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: They came to it from a from an internet standpoint.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna, I'm I'm gonna have this farm.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and this is a real this is a real problem, Cena, because you know, these rural farmers sometimes, our neighbors, you know, our our rural neighbors, they don't care about food.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're uh and and and and and they don't have money, they don't live in the city.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: They and and so marketing to neighbors is a real problem.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but both of these outfits, so so I'm you know, my heart goes out to the issue, and I don't have all the answers.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things that's consistent about both of these um enterprises that have that have now been kind of the the um whatever, the the the bullied, you know, the the bull, the the two big bullied uh local, you know, clean food enterprises in the last couple of years, is that they had no local base.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't selling to neighbors, they weren't selling to and and people weren't coming to the farm.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that they they weren't they weren't going to personally pick up anything.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was all shipped uh and delivered, and all the sales were internet sales, and all correspondence was email and social media.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So so these were both, uh, you know, and it sounds funny.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Amos is a horse and buggy Amish guy, you know, but but he has people who take care of his social media, so he doesn't have to answer the phone personally, which which Cena actually puts him yet even one more step removed, you know, from his customers.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so so when the bureaucrats raided, when the bureaucrats showed up, there was nobody to call locally to rally round, you know, to lean into the situation.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we have seen raids around the country, very, very similar in in the past, you know, 10, 15 years, that went the opposite direction, where the farmer had had had a lot of clout and see and and was able to punch through very, very rapidly.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I could name some, but I don't want to, you know, unnecessarily jeopardize people who I think have beat the system.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh by the way, we showcase them at our rogue food conference.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: But um uh but but but folks who have beat it, one of their commonalities is that they are localized, have people routinely coming to the farm, visiting, buying from the farm.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, they're they're handshaking.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're they're putting they're putting their eyes together.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh and and the the thought that has struck me is, you know, if you if you're gonna live by social media, you have to die by social media.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the problems is social media is, yeah, there there can be a social media firestorm, but let me tell you, what really intimidates these bureaucrats is when they show up at your farm and there's there's 50, 50 enthusiastic people there surrounding you, uh basically saying, don't touch our farmer, you physically, physically present.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and in in in both of these raids, that didn't happen.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: There was no local presence.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the result is there's not there's really no there's no um political accountability, if you will.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um because the these these regulators, you gotta understand, I mean, they're political creatures too, and they don't want to be cast in a you know in a in a terrible light.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: The agency doesn't want to be cast in a terrible light.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so and so they're not going to they they tend to back off uh when and they don't back off completely, but but but it's amazing what 20 or 30 people milling around with cameras and and in real-time uh uh buzzing uh can do to take some of the pressure off of an off of a bullied intimidated farmer in these in these food raids.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's happened is that so um what's interesting is that both of these farms have voiced a whatever uh you know a a revelatory notion, well, we just didn't realize they were that serious.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a Amos went and signed up signed a you know a judge's cease and desist order.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just he says today, well, just to just to get out of the courtroom, you know, just you know, okay, well, whatever.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: May I sign something?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Man, let me tell you something, Cena.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: When when a bureaucrat pushes something in your face under duress and tells you to sign it, you never sign it.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: You never sign it.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And fortunately, at Nourish Co-op, the folks there didn't sign anything.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's going to be very helpful for them.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, what one of the things that they're that they're wrangling about now is uh this this whole pet food thing.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, a lot of our listeners are are uh realizing that they come in under, you know, you can sell stuff under pet food.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this what happens what happens is that you have to have a defensible, credible, defensible position.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know how many of our listeners have been under the under the whatever gaze or or intimidation of a prosecuting attorney or a judge.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I have, and it's not fun, and and you can't, and and you, I mean, well, I guess some people tend to play games with it.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hillary Clinton seemed to play games with it.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I kind of recall, but uh but but but you know, she gets a she gets a uh a slide.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: But uh normal people like us, when they the the system comes after you, they they don't they don't give you a break.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and so you're sitting there on the stand, and well now, um did you know that your that your pet food is being consumed by humans?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um in fact, didn't you actually put your pet food label on in order to sell it to humans?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh so now what are you gonna say?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, Your Honor, I I that's actually that was a loophole that I saw uh sell it sell it as pet food so that humans could eat it.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So this really is just a fraud, it's a charade, isn't it?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what happens in the courtroom.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so what what's happening is this kind of um oh I don't know, uh a euphoric uh we beat the system, you know.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: This this whole uh cat and mouse game being played between between um authentic food producers, if I may use that term, authentic food producers versus the government, which is not authentic food producers, uh that cat and mouse game is like a big chess match.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we, you know, we come up with something to circumvent, and then they come up with something uh to meet it.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then we come up with something to circumvent, they come up with something to circumvent.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, it's this it's this massive um chess game going on.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and so uh my my encouragement, my encouragement to our listeners, and why I wanted to bring this to this podcast, and this might be a a fairly short podcast, but because I don't have, you know, I don't have a whole bunch of you know litigation material here to share, but my encouragement to our our folks who are not farmers, who are buying their food, is to realize how important you are in holding the hand and being an encouragement uh to your farmer.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because if you're buying authentic food, that is not what the system wants to sell in America, unfortunately.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they want to sell some sort of a adulterated um whatever pseudo something uh FDA approved and um and you know and and slap and and slap uh a credible uh FDA label on it and now it's good.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um those of us who are not in that system have to realize that we are the we are the lifeline, we are literally the lifeline for these farmers to to be able to buck the system and offer authentic food.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And to farmers who listen to us, who are listening to us, and for people who were who might get this podcast shared to them uh because they are farmers, let me tell you, this is not this is not this is not checkers, this is not you know fun and games.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's uh it's serious.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And these and these government agents are are serious.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: They uh we we laugh.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: See, you know, you know, we laugh at these folks that are coming out um taking perfectly good butter, like in the case of Nourish Cooperative, hundreds of pounds of perfectly wonderful grass-fed A2A2 butter, and confiscating it, and even telling them that they can't feed it to their pigs.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: It has to go to the landfill, and not even allowing them to destroy it however they want to or to eat it themselves.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I can tell you there are other places where identical raids have been done where that level of uh of of of uh whatever tyranny and and bullying and intimidation doesn't work because there's 30 30 people with pitchforks, you know, uh saying, don't mess with our farmer, and and and they're you know, they're they're calling, I mean, I'm thinking of John Moody when his food co-op defied defied the the police tape in uh Louisville, Kentucky.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, he had whatever it was, you know, 200 families signed up and said and said, we'll all go to jail.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And they they went across the police tape and and the government backed down.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: The government backed down.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: But it was a completely local effort.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um the the the local publicity and the light shining on those bureaucrats locally who live there, who go to church there, who who are in soccer leagues there, shining that light on them, it it created it created a wiggle room.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: It created a wiggle room that was that that is just simply not possible um from from from a from a social media distance.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Those bureaucrats don't care that you know your Instagram account or your TikTok account or your you know your website, whatever, you know, your social media account is lighting up with irate people.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: They don't care.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um what what they care about is their own personal, you know, uh um perception right there on site in real time while they're going about their business.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and so uh farmers take this seriously.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: The the naivety of both Nourish Cooperative and Amos Miller, by their own admission, their naivety literally cost them, caught caught them both off guard.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh, you know, I'm actually frustrated and tired of people of people uh whatever uh panning me or or or poo-pooing me or saying that I'm you know screaming unnecessarily, uh, because I've been I've been through these battles.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know what they're like, and I know the resolve and the seriousness of these these, I call them the food police, these food police.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and it's not it's not fun and games.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're being awfully quiet, Cena.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're supposed to, you're supposed to jump in here and and ask a question or say something.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but that's kind of moved.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, look, all of us, our heart breaks when when we hear about these raids like this, especially when it's this high quality of food.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And well, it's like Ashley Armstrong, the you know, the main spokesperson of the of the strong sisters and the nurse co-op.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: She says, you know, these 15 pigs, they they they just they just lived in vain.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And let me say another thing about uh about that.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: They say, well, the government made us take this up the landfill.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, when I heard about this, it's like you know, the uh the documentary that um um shoot, I can't think of her name right now, but uh the Farmageddon, Farmageddon, uh Christin Kristen Canty, okay, when she did Farmageddon, and they have those uh folks that they they raided the milk and man came to the truck and made them you know throw out the milk.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you have all these milk customers here um, you know, pouring out their milk on the ground.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And now Ashley uh, you know, the publicity is all saying that you know the government made us take our pigs to the landfill and all this stuff.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, Cena, there's not a canon in the world big enough to make me pour out good food.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would look at those um, I would look at those uh bureaucrats and say, uh, if you want this poured out or if you want this done, you do it.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna destroy plenty, you know, completely good food.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there's not um these folks that say, well, they they made us pour it out.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: They made us take it to the landfill.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: They made us pour what Ashley said, they made us pour motor oil on the pig carcasses before they took it to the landfill.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: They had to pour motor oil on these on these perfectly wonderful pigs before they took them to the landfill.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, nobody, nobody is gonna is gonna make me pour motor oil on plenty good.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: If they want to pour motor oil on it, they're gonna have to take the pigs down, they're gonna have to have it on their hands, they're gonna have to pick it up by themselves, they're gonna put the motor oil on, they're gonna take it to the landfill, whatever they're gonna do.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a cannon in the world big enough to make me do it.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think that this this is all part of that whole bowing, duplicitous, you know, yes, yes, yes, uh mentality that that we have in our country.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's um, you know, it's really it's really unfortunate.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it reminds me, I feel like there's there's a lot of fear, right?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one reason why we cow down to them is because people are afraid of the consequences.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: What happens if you stand up and say, no, I'm not gonna do that?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, um, and I think.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think that you hit on this so poignantly that if they had that local support, right?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: If they had the I'm like getting Alteri, I just imagining it and like what it must have felt like to be at John Moody's and to be part of that movement, that resistance.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: That if they had the local support like pouring into the farm and standing up and saying, no, like we're protecting our farmer, that fear starts to dissipate, right?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're not alone anymore.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so amazing that in this time, in this time that we live, we think that we're so connected because of the web and all these different ways we can plug into people in other countries and whatnot, but we're actually so disconnected, right?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that they don't have this support system standing by them so that they do feel like they can stand up for their rights and the rights of those pigs and you know, and the consumers.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's very sad to me to hear that.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're right.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: We really need to be focusing on locals, anyway.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can create some local community for yourself.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now I have a very basic question here, which is at the very end of the podcast.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: But why was Nourish Co-op rated?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: You said they were rated twice now.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and why?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it it um the best I can gather, their pork they were selling by the piece, but it was custom processed.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big no-no.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: So explain that to all of us.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: So so there are there are three levels of government oversight in the in the meat in the meat business.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um one is a federal government inspection.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, that's where you have a licensed facility and there is an inspector on site to see every animal.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, physically laying eyes on every carcass that's processed.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in the poultry industry, um, you know, that's about that's about uh, you know, two seconds per bird.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but anyway, you know, that there's actually a physical presence, a physical bureaucrat presence on site looking at everything that goes through.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: The second is state inspection.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, only about half the states even have state inspection anymore.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh more than half have actually given it up to the to the federal government and just say, you know, forget the state inspection.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: State inspection has to be equal to federal.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: The only difference is that the that that the it meat can't be sold across state lines.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's for intrastate sales, okay?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third level of oversight is what's called custom.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And custom is a facility that will process your animal for you.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: You raise a you raise a steer, uh, you bring it in and say, Would you butcher this for me?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll come back in two weeks and pick up the packages.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Those packages are are stamped not for sale.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I have already on this podcast in previous um um episodes, have talked about Congressman Thomas Massey's Prime Act, which the whole goal of the Prime Act is to allow states that would that would like to offer that custom processed meat for sale by the cut.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, um the the the knot for sale would come off and intrastate, not interstate, but intrastate, you could, you know, uh I I if I raised a beef and I took it down to the to the a butcher and brought it back, and you're my neighbor, and you come over and say, Hey, uh, you got some extra beef.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Could I could I get three packages of that steer that you had?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was a beautiful animal.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like three packages of of ground beef from it.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right now you can't sell that to that neighbor, but under the Prime Act, you would be able to.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we don't have the Prime Act, so so I don't want to get people confused.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: The point is that that custom custom processing is custom work, custom work done for me that I've that I've contracted for.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so my understanding is that they, and there are way more custom plants than there are federal inspected plants.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these tend to be more, you know, community neighborhood type smaller outfits.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And my understanding is that they took these pigs to a custom slaughterhouse and then and and then they were going to have them uh packaged and sell the packages, even though the packages were stamped not for sale.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: That is a that's a big no-no, Cena.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big no-no.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's um and and that's why those carcasses were confiscated, because if those carcasses had had had had been owned, you know, pre-sold live and owned by Jane and Tom and Mary and Bill, okay, and their names are on those carcasses, then they would have been fine.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: They would have been fine.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not the way they were going to sell it.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, those carcasses did not have anybody's name on it, and and they were and they were being fabricated um to sell by the piece.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that was that was an agreement, and and that was again, that was and and they admit that that that was naive on their part.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: They they just didn't figure the government was that interested in, okay, so we're raising some pigs and we're selling them to people who voluntarily, as consenting adults, want to engage in a consensual food transaction.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and we're gonna we're gonna do this.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Why does the government care?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the government does care.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and and so they got they got caught in this in this melee.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the um the the dairy situation, which happened about four months later, uh the dairy situation is a little more um, I don't know, it's not not quite as straightforward because they labeled their dairy products as pet food, which was Michigan, but now the government is coming in telling them that they're not going to recognize the pet food label, and and the pet food label has to have portion sizes, nutrient analysis, all sorts of things on it.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, Nourish Cooperative is saying, well, look, you can go around the state and there's raw dairy pet food sold, other and and and the other people aren't feeling, you know, the government's not coming and raiding them.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: But this is what you have to understand the government doesn't raid everybody at once.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: They raid, they raid the most vulnerable.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so if somebody, if somebody's been in this business and they have uh, you know, local customers, a local brand, and they've been in this space for three or four years, everything's gone well, um they're they're they're better healed, if you will.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean healed, H-E-E-L E, better anchored, okay, better anchored.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: When Nourish Co-op came in with massive media campaign, massive social media.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they they lit up things and and were clearly, you know, um going going big time and shipping around the country.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh these these food police, it scared them.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it scared them about where this was headed, and so and and they they were brand new, and they'd already dealt with them.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, they were naive the you know, in four months before with the big thing, and so they were the ones chosen to be rated.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and and now the government's telling them they're going to disallow that pet food, you know, that pet food exemption that way to circumvent the the human laws with with pet food.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I expect there's going to be all sorts of um you know all sorts of things now develop um that will actually hurt all the other folks who've been doing this now for several years without any problems.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: They've been, you know, quieter, more low-key, more local oriented.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And now I suspect there will be very, very onerous regulations written that will that will catch them in the dragnet, you know.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's you know, it's it's it's very unfortunate.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: They're saying they're gonna disallow that pay pet label across the entire state or just for nurse co-op?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, across the entire state.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean they the government has to be consistent, yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so and so is it like not just kidding.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what is when it comes to this, when it comes to this, they definitely you know want to be want to be fairly consistent.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and of course, one of nurse cooperative's arguments is well, you haven't rated, you know, X and Y and Z.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: They've got obviously doing the same thing we did, but again, I come back to the to the beginning of this program of this um episode, is the difference I think is that they have taken a nationwide social media, non-local approach.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and and there's a there's a huge difference just politically, diplomatically, logistically, you know, in in that kind of in that kind of thing.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, um, you know, our farm is on a dirt road.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: We're not in the middle of a metropolitan area, but our our background, our foundation was always local.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: It it's always been local, and um, and that's been that's been our push, even though we do now ship nationwide, we didn't, we didn't start that way.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so you know, I've I've been in hearings in Richmond where you know customers come and and show up and they talk about, you know, don't mess with my farmer.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a you know, that's that's a really, really big deal.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so folks that are are wanting to start this, don't be don't be cavalier, don't be cavalier about the intentions of these um licensing agencies.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: These licensing agencies take their protection of the public space very seriously, and they they absolutely live day by day thinking if we weren't here, half the population would die of disease.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is the I'm I'm not making a joke here.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: You have you have to appreciate that in their world and in their mind, this isn't a game.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think I think that this is where um this is where some of the people who have been harmed by this, who blame the industry, are completely wrong.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: They're because I've spent a lot of time with regulators over the years, both ones that seem friendly and ones that seem not friendly.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I have never, I have never seen anything or heard anything that made me think that their agenda was driven by big corporations.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, their agenda is driven by public safety, by the Ralph Nader rights, by the consumer advocacy groups who who distrust everything.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's true that the big guys and gals um generally find a seat at the table when the regulations are actually written, but um but but they're they're not the ones, they're not the ones sending the bureaucrat in to raid a farm.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that is strictly inside government.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, some of the run-ins that we've had, uh, and and I I've checked with this with numerous raids over the years.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Generally, the informant, the informant is not, you know, some big corporation.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's an unhappy neighbor.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's it's a competitor.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little, it's a little farmer, you know, five miles down the road that doesn't like you know this new outfit moving in on their on their turf.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the normal tip-off, you know, if you want to know where the you know the tip-off happens to the bureaucrats, that's where it generally comes from.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't come from the big guys.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't, it doesn't help our cause to finger to to blame the big guys all the time for something that's actually being uh stimulated or encouraged or developed by um by a uh serious serious food safety, you know, government regulators, and b by paranoid consumers who are wanting a government um license on every morsel of food.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's those those are the two big issues.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not industrial food.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: As much as I don't like industrial food, they're not the ones.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Shoot, do you think McDonald's even knows that we exist?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, they don't even know we exist.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Tyson, they don't even know we exist.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're a we're a gnat.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're not even a gnat, a flea.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're not we're nothing in the you know in the food universe.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, they're they're just trying to keep their half a cent of chicken margin, you know.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um, they're not they're not talking about pastured poultry farms.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: They're you know, they're not talking about this kind of stuff.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so it's it's it's I think it's I think it's misplaced blame to lay the blame for this kind of thing on big food, because big food is not the culprit, it's big government and and and and and and a society, a society which has come to believe that the only way to be safe is to put a government agent in charge of defining what safety is.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: I knew you could do it, uh like a 35-minute monologue.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: I had faith in you.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I literally want to be like, hey, like jump for the president, like and then abolish the FDA, the federal level FDA.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then you toss in the USDA while you're at it, right?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Bring them back to the local level, right?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Bring bring it all local, let the let the states, let the states do what they want, and um, and some states would be free, some states wouldn't, and we'd all be able to look at each other in a 50 state experiment and decide for ourselves which way we wanted to progress.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's that's the way.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the reason there's so, oh now you brought it up.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now the reason there's so much, you know, uh division and acrimony in our country is because we have arrogated at the to the federal level things that were supposed to be done at the state and local level.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so the stakes are higher.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's a winner take all.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a it's it's not now a local or state experiment.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's it's it's a it's a winner take all.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um and and and the federal is farther removed, farther removed from us.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you've got less accountability, less all the things that we that that are that are um affecting this whole uh food raid issue.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: So Joel, then you're on a roll.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: What is our community question?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh me, I hadn't even gotten there yet.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: But uh yeah, I guess um, how confident are you that the food you're buying is okay?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: You mean like safe?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Safe, um, nutritious, all all of those things.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: In other, in other words, I mean, uh an obvious other question would be do you and I I think our feedback from listeners would be pretty lopsided on this one, but you know, do you think the only safe food is food that's stamped with a with a government uh approval stamp?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I would bet most of our listeners would think that the only safe food is the one that you're buying from your local farmer that you that you trust.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Which then, which then which then begs the confidence question.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I I want I want people to understand that that their confidence, they're not their confidence is not a label and it's not a government stamp.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Their confidence is because they have they have searched, they have vetted, they have talked to friends, they have tasted, they have seen, they have whatever, visited, all right.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's that's what gives them confidence.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not confidence from you know from a from a government agent.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually writing that down.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Your confidence is not a label or a government stamp.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna be for me one of the old-time Joel Salatin quotes.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right there.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: That would be my new my um signature on my emails from Joel Salatin.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: All right, thank you, Joel.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for another great thought provoking episode mixed in with your wisdom and your passion for the sphere and for all things healthy for the plants, the animals, the soil, our microbes, and us.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: All right, we will see you all next week on another episode of Beyond Labels.