Latest / TWRS-Leadership Straight, No Chaser / You’re Breaking Your Own Team (Bad Leadership)
Transcript
- Scott Brandt: interesting how some of us may feel as if we're on an island on our own, really don't have anybody that we can connect with, then we get in a spot that we really struggle with, and had we had somebody in our corner, it might have helped us out to move forward instead of staying stuck. Welcome to Together We Are Stronger, Leadership Straight, No Chaser, and tonight we have Natalie Holder on with us as our guest, and Natalie a ⁓ very perspective. I don't think George and I know anybody in the legal space. So this is a very interesting kind of here. ⁓ Natalie, when we were looking at kind of ⁓ ⁓ would say probably kind of lit the fire into your focus really helping people out ⁓ there was a situation where you were working with a former employee, they were campaigning for you to move to another location. ⁓ But then you looked and you're like, well, my son, and I think you said your son in your one-pager has special needs. you looked and you're like, my son is set up in a good position and I don't want to take him out of something that he has established. ⁓ so at that point you're like, ⁓ I've got to make a determination. And it was either my family ⁓ ⁓ to the company. And so when that situation happened, kind of what was the fire and what was the thought process and what did that lead in regards to what you're doing charge wise for other people? Natalie Holder: All right, well, thank you so much, Scott, for taking that up. And it's great to be here. meeting you, Scott and George. ⁓ let's also put some parameters around this so that your audience has a better sense of how big the stakes were. We're talking about not just leaving any job. I was leaving my dream job at Stanford University. So this was the job where, ⁓ someone who was an employment lawyer who always looked at ways to increase access to ⁓ ⁓ people who often had the doors either ⁓ closed on them or just cracked open. I was that person who was helping to bring opportunities to historically underrepresented scientists and engineers and other people in STEM to be able to access places like the National Laboratory where I worked at Stanford University. So it was a lot of, you know, working with, you know, partners in other institutions. It was, you know, creating relationships. It was all of the things that I'd always desired to do. George Dovolis: you Natalie Holder: However, as Scott said, it was a very difficult encounter where the election of November 2024, I just knew that my life was going to change ⁓ as a chief diversity officer at a national laboratory, I that that was going to be work that had to be done on the ground. And so I understood where the push and the pull came from for me to actually be on site. Because if you're doing culture inclusion work, that is working where in an environment like we have now, an environment where words like or letters, acronyms like DEI are seen as confrontational, political, but instead we're really not even talking about the whole idea that it's nothing but creating opportunity for others and for everyone. this work has to be done locally, you know, and that's how the organization believed. And so it's really important that you take stock of where you are in life. And I'm a big believer in creating portfolio careers. I'll admit my decision was based on the whole idea that I had other avenues that I had been working on in where if I stepped down, I knew I had another place to land. I'm a big believer in making sure that people that I work with, whenever I'm coaching employees, helping them to understand that your internal visibility should also have some external visibility. Because it not only works well for your organization, in other words, you're being the spokesperson for your organization, you're creating relationships for your organization, but you're also building your own brand. Scott Brandt: Mm. Natalie Holder: Sometimes you have to build your own brand inside someone else's logo, but the whole idea is you're at least starting to build that brand and that exposure. And so, you know, I'll admit it was a difficult decision. George Dovolis: Hmm. Natalie Holder: However, you have to really take stock of where you are, what's important to you, and also making sure you're not repeating patterns. I'll admit, when I decided to step down, I immediately had a recruiter reach out to me about another plum opportunity. ⁓ my gosh, I just thought to myself, I'm leaving one dream job and going to the other. This was like, you know, an advocacy organization where I'd be doing the same work. would be working in an organization that pretty much said, look, we don't take any federal funds anyway, so we're fine going forward with George Dovolis: Yeah Natalie Holder: you know our DEI mandate moving forward with continuing to look at this work as culture building. However the role was in New York ⁓ ⁓ though ⁓ in Maryland and commuting to New York is something that many people are set up to do, I said ⁓ the signal that this just doesn't work for me. I really want to be a present parent. I really want to be the kind of parent that will Scott Brandt: Mm. George Dovolis: Hmm. Natalie Holder: really be able to say I remember the years when I remember the experiences of when my child had you know certain milestones and so I said no to that opportunity and yes to my life. Scott Brandt: a you talked about the brand piece, like working with employees. And I think ⁓ general, it's one of these things that you're starting to see the push in regards to individuals creating their brand. ⁓ it's a very unique thing because we have a lot of people that will hide behind the the business name. And it's like ⁓ if business goes down, if the product goes down, you're the person, you're the brand. And so when you look at kind of employees, when you're working with employers, when I look at it, it's a struggle for individuals because they are dealing with these thoughts of what somebody else gave them. They're dealing with potentially the negativity of the workplace. They may be beaten down where people just want to put them down. And so it is a very interesting thing when you talk about the aspect of branding, the person's brand, really working on that. so ⁓ we look at kind of ⁓ culture piece, when are building that culture, ⁓ the culture that you might find, ⁓ it's interesting how a lot of leaders don't realize it's them and everything trickles down. And so when it comes to that struggle points where people really aren't in tune with themselves they haven't done the work and they're all over the place and they're taking everybody else's advice and then the culture is just all over the place. Where you see ⁓ leaders struggling with that with trying to help create a culture that really everyone up, helps with the growth with everyone? yet it really doesn't take place because somehow it trickles down and stops here. Somebody gets a hold over there like, okay, this is cool. And then somebody's like, I don't like this. And it's just a very interesting cock piece when you just see things don't mesh. Natalie Holder: of all of that, the lack of mesh, the lack of being attuned to what your team and what your people are experiencing, it really boils down to honesty. It boils down to whether or not you really are being honest with who you are in the workplace. Yesterday I was coaching an employee who much was telling a certain story to herself and as she was telling the story ⁓ ⁓ Look, it's corporate America. I'm never going to get a fair opportunity. I'm never going to get the promotion I'm looking for. I'm pretty much tapped out. The undercurrent to her current situation was really, you know, leader. And I use that word very loosely. The was in a position of leadership, but he really wasn't the leader ⁓ because wasn't honest with how he was engaging with this team member. He wasn't honest with even understanding the capabilities that this person brought to their team. And unfortunately, because this person really couldn't tap into their own humanity and their own humility in terms of understanding what the team and not just this individual who I was working with, but what the team really needed. He was really damaging morale and damaging any sort of currency, any sort of social capital that he may have had with his team. And it's important that as leaders, we are people who can tap into that humility. Case in point, I'll admit, a few years ago, I had a member on my team. It was someone who I had hired. So it wasn't someone who I inherited. This is someone who I had hired. And my work around like, Scott Brandt: Hmm. Natalie Holder: Broken Cultures comes from a number of interviews I took I conducted with people ⁓ turned into a book called Exclusion Strategies for Improving Diversity Recruitment, Retention, and Promotion. Notice I don't say increasing, I say improving. But within that book a lot of stories. ⁓ And one of stories is, or one of the 10 indicators of a broken culture, it's the ⁓ know, perception of underperformance, right? So who do we really perceive as underperforming in our teams? And there might be a lie in there. And for me, there was a lie because I thought that this person who I had hired, she was okay. you know, during the interview, thought that she was a star. In fact, I do panel interviews to make sure that my biases are counterbalanced with what other people are experiencing and seeing. And the other people on the panel thought she was just, matter of fact, one of my panel members said, if you don't hire her, I will. Scott Brandt: Hmm. Natalie Holder: And so, you know, this was clearly someone who was seen as an asset. However, I just felt as though this person wasn't really carrying their weight. This person wasn't responding at a time that I thought they should. This person's work product was kind of mediocre. And I said, you know what, before I make any assumptions, let me do a 360 with my team just to see where I'm landing as a leader. And in my 360, I saw that there was this constant through line with certain negative responses in where I noticed that for the most part, the team thought that I was doing well, but I did pay a lot of attention to. comments like, know, am I providing proper training? Am I really, you know, engaging people? Am I really encouraging and inspiring people? I could have said, you know what, have other things to worry about. But in that moment, I said, who do I want and how do I want my team to show up? And I had to really dig into my own humility. And started to ⁓ really... know, investigate and show that curiosity. So first it's a step of honesty. But then you've got to be curious about what's not working. I started asking my team members, ⁓ not working for us? And the person who I thought was underperforming, when I started asking more about their day, when I started asking more about the support that they needed, I realized what was happening. Because I didn't work on site, because I worked remotely. Other people were tapping this person for work. Other people were starting to siphon off her work. And as a result, she wasn't able to give 100 % to our team. And so that then gave me the information I needed to start blocking and tackling for her. And as a result, her work started to improve. It started to be a pleasure working with this individual. And so that really, once again, goes back to the whole idea of you've got to be honest about George Dovolis: Hmm Natalie Holder: What are you not bringing to the table as a leader and being able to do something about it? So people all the time gather information. I don't know how many culture climate surveys I've seen organizations do over the years. I don't know how many engagement surveys I've seen people do with Gallup and they spend all this money. And what happens to those surveys? They sit on a shelf collecting dust. Right? And you don't do anything with it. You actually have to have that humility to say, yeah, I will do something with it. Scott Brandt: Mmm. It's very interesting thing, the humility piece and really ⁓ open feedback. ⁓ Jordan I talked about this, whereas you're building kind of your tribe, bringing people in, and this is your work environment too, as you're bringing people into certain positions, you have to be open to feedback. And there are people that like to fight back that are like, no. And it's like, ⁓ it's ego piece. And ⁓ it's very interesting thing because that ego shows up and they're like, ⁓ I don't know this, but I don't want to show AKA the weakness that I don't know this. And then you make it more difficult for everyone. And so it's such a, it's a very interesting thing how people just get in their way. They don't realize it. And I know George was getting ready to say something, something here for him. ⁓ ⁓ kind of Natalie was highlighting there. know it kind of, ⁓ Hit a little red button for you. George Dovolis: yeah, you know, when it comes down to leadership and think a lot of them, first of all, need to go back to leadership school. They need to understand ⁓ that building a culture and people follow your lead. ⁓ And I that at where I'm at on a part-time basis that When you're a leader and you have X amount of people following you, it doesn't matter if you're full time, part time, you work one day a week, it doesn't matter. You got to create culture. And I think a lot of times people intentionally create toxic environments that that's why they have a revolving door all the time. And I just it just makes you sit back and think, how these people get positions. What did they do to create something to get that job with their interview on top of the game? And then when they come to play, they have nothing. It's like it was handed to them. And I think leadership and even entrepreneurs, only businesses got to, ⁓ would have to say you got to stop the toxic environment because it reaches into your clientele as well. And how do you do that from your point of view and seeing that how you stop that without it really corrupting the whole place you know underneath the whole roof in a sense mm-hmm yes ma'am Natalie Holder: Because people are watching, right? People are watching what's happening. They're watching how are you engaging with other people? And it has a huge impact on morale. I mean, look, there are so many studies that show what it costs an organization when they do have a revolving door. Some studies have shown that it costs an organization one and a half times that person's salary when they're walking out the door. because you're thinking about what does it cost to source for the role? What does it cost to onboard for the role? What does it cost to train? And then you're also thinking about how are your clients and customers and in healthcare patients, how are they impacted? I'll tell you a little secret of mine that whenever I need something, anytime I need some sort of, let's just say, we'll just call it a benefit. George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. You Natalie Holder: Okay, we'll just call it a benefit right now. But if I'm looking for some sort of, know, let's just say, you know, for someone to not exactly follow the rules in the organization, I look for the person who looks the most disgruntled. I look for the person in the store who doesn't look like they're enjoying their job. Why? Because usually those are the people who are so checked out, they don't care. You know, don't care that, you know, you George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Scott Brandt: Hmm. Natalie Holder: the item was mis-marked and instead of being 20 % off, now it's 50 % off. They don't care, they're checked out. They're not the person who's going to actually enforce what is the rule and the regulation of the workplace. And then look, the other costs really are a matter of innovation, So Scott spoke about ego. There are so many times that as a leader you do believe that you must have all the right answers. This is why I'm a huge believer in coaching. George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Natalie Holder: I actually engage with the coach to make sure that, you know. just to assess where was I and my coach did an assessment or collected the feedback from my team. And my team felt like I was stymieing them. They felt like I was taking all of the air out of the room because here I am an employment lawyer. I've been working in employment law spaces for over 20 years. What do these millennials have to offer? People who are born the year I got admitted to the bar ⁓ what do they to offer? Can I tell you, the people who I had hired on my team, I wasn't giving them the space and the air to really breathe and provide the kind of impact that I needed. When I started to step back and let them do their jobs, and when I started to step back and even talk about my own vulnerability, that I didn't have all the answers, that I might've been scared about something that was happening in the economy. I might've been scared during COVID and being worried about what it meant to my family, my life, my livelihood. That's when my team came alive. And can I tell you, we had one of the most successful, one of the most successful events all because one of my team members had this idea. I wouldn't have come up with it, but she had this idea of like partnering, you know, across, at the time we were at a laboratory, but there were 17 national laboratories. She said, why don't we partner with all the other laboratories in doing this next event? As a result, we had over 5,000 people who were, you know, on a webinar. George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Natalie Holder: that once again was just record breaking for any sort of event that our laboratory had ever had or any other laboratory. George Dovolis: Hmm. Scott Brandt: But that's huge, really. But like you talked about the power of a coach coming in, giving that feedback. ⁓ a business owner, if you are running everything for your business, payroll, ⁓ compliance, Natalie would be like, ⁓ got to this in check. ⁓ this is stuff that you're running and as a business owner, you didn't get into business to do that back end stuff and you're probably ⁓ dreading it. ⁓ is here to really work with you, help you out. George Dovolis: Yeah. Scott Brandt: allow you to get in your zone of genius and take care of those things. So that way you're in your strengths. You can take care of your business, help it grow. And then they can help you on the backend to really make sure you're compliant, make sure you have everything in line. So you can take care of your employees and then they can take care of your clientele. so Natalie, ⁓ very interesting because you had highlighted, this is where I was, ⁓ got the feedback. And so being... in the law profession. It's one that we know you either love it, you dislike it, people are like, I don't like it, doesn't make sense. you got that feedback. ⁓ is there a little bit of that where being ⁓ the legal sphere, a lawyer and whatnot, and then getting that type of feedback? Like, what that for you, like personally, when you're like, I'm ⁓ a lawyer, here's this feedback and ⁓ everybody feels like I'm not helping them grow and they feel like they're stuck. Like how did that like work out for yourself with those two different like entities having to play against each other? Natalie Holder: we like to believe that because we have certain degrees, certain pedigree that we automatically are equipped to lead. I'll tell you a secret, lawyers are some of the worst people managers. And so luckily I had this information in my back pocket. However, like you said, there is that immediate belief of, okay, I'm the one with this degree, I'm the one with these credentials. However, you have to realize at some point that The credentials really are not the end all be all of how you lead. It really is much more of a function of what you bring to the organization, what you bring in terms of your style, your capabilities, and ultimately, what is your goal? You so many people have as a goal that I want to look good. But for me, my ethos is what makes us look good? Because reality is if everyone loves what I'm doing, but they can't stand what my team is doing, What do you think that does to my reputation and my credibility? The thought is Natalie doesn't know how to build a team. She doesn't know how to manage her people. She might be brilliant, but her team is underperforming. And that looks negatively upon you. So that to me is always why you always expand the aperture of how and where you're showing up in the workplace. Scott Brandt: Thank George Dovolis: know, the thing that hit me earlier was the surveys sitting on the desk. And to me, I try to figure out why they even create them because they don't do anything about them. People in leadership, no matter where you're at, are not the frontline people helping out. When you go into a store and you see that individual checked out, it's because there's a reason behind it. Because no one really cares about that individual, what they're going through, how you're doing today. No one really asks, you know, what's going on. then you go to HR, That's like yelling in a box, you know, it's you put this HR is a fail fail organization. And I truly believe that because they're not for the people. They're for the company. And I know I maybe I'm jumping on the wrong tree and going up the wrong bark here. But I'm telling you right now, when I talked to HR, I told the guy, you're not my friend. I'm not your friend. And this is how it's going to be. And the guy was shocked. He was like, I never Scott Brandt: you George Dovolis: heard that before because I've been an entrepreneur for 44 years I know what you guys already try to be friends and this and that but it comes down to people that work for companies have no voice and I just you know I see that all the time Natalie Holder: So George, I'm not going to push back, but I'd like to push forward on that whole idea of is a place of fail. And I'll admit, I do believe in that whole notion of fail being your first attempt at learning, right? However, that's where I do believe that, ew. ⁓ George Dovolis: Yes. Natalie Holder: certain departments, i.e. human resources, legal, that they could be truly revolutionized in where they really are seen as a partner to the people. They're seen as a partner to the people that they're working with. And that to me is like what really creates a stronger workplace culture because if you're protecting your people, you're also protecting the culture. George Dovolis: Yes. Natalie Holder: So before I got on this call, I was reading through a recent decision that had been made in the Blake Lively case. So Blake Lively had sued person who was producing her movie and her co-star in a movie. She had sued him for sexual harassment ⁓ retaliation. The sexual harassment piece got dropped out. George Dovolis: Yes. Natalie Holder: which I was not surprised by because in order to prove sexual harassment, you must show like a number of different criteria, but the one that often trips people up is that it has to be pervasive and severe treatment. And what I read didn't really look pervasive or severe. I'm not minimizing what happened to her, but I'll admit by the legal standard, I didn't see it. But what I did see was the retaliation piece. And that to me is where, once again, if you're taking care of your people, you're protecting the organization. If as a human resource leader, and I'm not in any way going to play Monday morning ⁓ quarterback on this, however, I will say that when you do receive any sort of indication that people are not experienced in the workplace in a way that is safe, I would much rather receive a million complaints internally. George, as a business person know that the number one thing that you never wanted to receive was a letter from an external organization, a regulatory agency. You didn't want to hear from the Department of Labor. You didn't want to hear from the EEC. And you certainly didn't want to receive a demand letter from an attorney. And so the job was, how do we make sure that we resolve this? Now, are you going to make everybody happy? There are some people who are dead set and do believe there's no way that human resources are going to help me, ⁓ George Dovolis: Yeah. Natalie Holder: what I'm looking for is something that, you human resources should be giving me, but they are not giving me. There are going to be those times where it's just not reasonable to give the employee what they want. You know, I remember someone once wanted to, and you're going to think this is very outlandish, but I'm not kidding you. wanted to able to use their George Dovolis: ⁓ yeah. No. Natalie Holder: you know, their business account to purchase artwork for their home. That's something that, yes, it doesn't pass the sniff test. It's not gonna happen. No human resources officer is gonna help you with that. When people know that you're working in an environment that is unsafe, that you're being subjected to harassment or discrimination or retaliation, that is definitely data and information that the organization should act upon. Because once again, if you don't act upon it, Especially today with AI, people are drafted all sorts of complaints that look like they're drafted by an attorney. mean, HR people are really now having to, would say, think quickly as to how do they respond to an internal complaint that looks like it was drafted by counsel. George Dovolis: ⁓ yeah. Wow. I mean, you definitely bring a great point in this, you know, when it comes to HR and things like that, I can see definitely your view on it because it is for, it is a buffer between the corporate world and employees to help each other out to get somewhere. ⁓ was just a situation I saw that I was part of. It was, it was interesting, but It is very true that sometimes love to see how people grow, you know, as leaders ⁓ taking accountability. ⁓ I think a lot of times I think real leaders have that accountability. And then I think the ones who miss it, what's that really look like today in this business world when people, real leadership has accountability. What's that look to people in the sense of what they expect out of that? Natalie Holder: It's when someone is not, in my opinion, ensuring that they're people. are growing, are getting the assignments that can set them up for greater opportunities later on. It's the leader who's lying to themselves about how and where they are providing fairness, equity, and equality on their teams. You going back to the person I was coaching yesterday, you know, this was a prime example of someone who really was lying to himself in terms of who he was choosing to be in his inner circle. The person who I was talking to had been, really had been at the company before this person had been brought on, had been practicing law for a number of years. And however, new leader, you know, pretty much had said to this person, I just don't see you as a fit for the team. You know, I think that you have too much experience. I don't think that, you know, there's much I can do with you. That to me is someone who's failed as a leader. George Dovolis: Okay. Natalie Holder: Because even if you've inherited someone, especially someone who's trying to work hard, you have failed them and you have failed your team. Because once again, people are watching. think that one of the most important elements of ⁓ and I'm not in any way ⁓ trying to discredit anyone who believes in leadership principles. And ⁓ have all the Jim Collins books and all of that. ⁓ you can even ⁓ the foundation, ⁓ of looking at productivity, looking at who's successful, who's actually crushing it at work. You've really got to have a foundation of are we being fair and equitable? Because if you don't, of that pretty much turns into like dandelion. ⁓ know fluff, know the wishes that you make a little fluff. That's all it is. It just flies around. It doesn't land anywhere. Unless you really have that firm foundation of we are going to make sure that we're making decisions as a company, as an individual that really honors what people are bringing to the table. George Dovolis: Yes. Natalie Holder: Because if you're, you know, I'm thinking about this person in particular, if this leader was being honest with what people are bringing to the table, this person would have been much more equitable in how they were giving out assignments, how they were setting up people to ensure that they were able to seek promotions at a different time and space. Here, I was talking to someone who not only trained him, trained the next person who leapfrogged over her to get a promotion. When you see that happening, how can you truly start talking about productivity and who's working hard? Morale is out the door. George Dovolis: Yeah, and that's hard to get your employees or your team to take ownership of what you're doing because they're seeing that you're not leaving a great mark. trade is all over the place. And so people get real skeptical of that. I love you're saying. I enjoy this so much. Natalie Holder: Thank you, George. I to say it, but this is the conversation that I wish we didn't have to have. I really do wish that we could have had the conversation about, all right, so fairness is a given, equality is a given. And now we're really talking about what does it mean to be ⁓ a achiever? But to me, all of that is empty. George Dovolis: Yeah. Natalie Holder: if the leader hasn't set the stage for once again making sure that there really is access and not these 10 indicators of a broken workplace culture. George Dovolis: Let me ask you this, why does leaders that you've seen take so long to make changes their organization and then it becomes like a madhouse trying to figure things out? Natalie Holder: So when I think about some of the changes that a leader could make in the workplace in terms of improving workplace relations, going back to your example of being that employee who completed all of the surveys, of course, that's how we get to survey fatigue when we have all of these wonderful surveys that are just collecting dust. As a leader, if you're not using that kind of data, how do you know what you need to change? George Dovolis: Yeah. Yeah. Natalie Holder: Because we often do lead with this perception of ourselves that might be incongruent with our truth or with the truth about us. know, personality incongruence is wonderful when you see me the way I see myself. But oftentimes the leader who's dishonest doesn't have a team who sees them the way in which they see themselves. And I'm a true believer that those feedback and surveys Those are vital for being able to gather sometimes the painful information that really can create the kind of transformation that is necessary for a team. George Dovolis: Yeah. Man, you know, these days, you know, how work has changed. How does someone really protect their career, you know, without. you know, falling behind, you know, especially in this work environment. It's so competitive because back in the days, I mean, you know, you might get 30 applicants, now you get 3000. And how do you protect your career? You know, of course, you got to do your job and stuff without getting pushed out to the side. Natalie Holder: when we think about ⁓ creates that in the workplace, in where you started out as a star, you were hired ⁓ and recruited, you were brought on as a star, and you were respected for genius. However, it might have ⁓ a change in organization in where your contributions are no longer what's valued. George Dovolis: Yeah. Natalie Holder: Organizations have all the time. And not just the big splashy reorgs, ⁓ yesterday's Oracle announcement to 30,000 people. We're more ⁓ about of the more subtle reorganizations in terms of priorities, in terms of maybe we're no longer going after certain market. Maybe we're starting to go after new markets. Maybe ⁓ this is changing the way in which we're going to start ⁓ engaging certain products or services. And so I think it's so important that ⁓ George Dovolis: Yeah. Natalie Holder: that individual who is you know trying to protect their career you have to you know you have to stay attuned to what's happening in the organization. You know and one of the the barriers or one of the indicators of a broken culture that comes up over and over again in terms of people being able to get that access it's the lack of informal mentoring. So we oftentimes will work with and play with the people who make us feel most comfortable. George Dovolis: Yes. Natalie Holder: And oftentimes that's the person who us of ourselves. ⁓ it's no fluke that I'm talking to the two of you, ⁓ that two of you have a show together. ⁓ There's that George enjoys about Scott and Scott enjoys about George, right? And that's We all have a tendency to want to work with people who make us feel comfortable, people who maybe finish our sentences for us at times. George Dovolis: Yes. Yes. Yes. Natalie Holder: However, what that looks like in the workplace, it's that if I am someone who presents with very different characteristics, I don't share gender with you, I don't share race with you, I don't share pedigree with you, the likelihood of me getting that informal mentoring from you now becomes less and less and less and less. ⁓ Scott Brandt: Hmm. Natalie Holder: when you have those experiences of really no longer being in the orbit and where you can get that info mentoring that will inform you of what's coming down the pike in your organization that's where you become so much more of a potential you know victim of what changes are going to come about in your career that's where you have a lot less control and a whole lot less opportunity to navigate and that's why i always tell people George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Natalie Holder: If no one has assigned you a mentor, find one on your own. Start asking people out for coffee. ⁓ Start joining the organizations where you can. Start to leverage, once again, that internal and external visibility. I'll give an example. of just how this informal mentoring is just once again so natural when you do share many of the characteristics of the person who has the information you're looking for. I was talking to a partner, white male, white shoe law firm, AmLaw 100 law firm ⁓ New York City, ⁓ of employees all over the world. So we're talking about a pretty, you know, decent size organization. he was telling me about this person who had recently made partner who no really enjoyed working with. ⁓ And night, the partner I'm talking to was working late at night with this unsavory partner. he finally to the of his tether with this person. And he just laid and said, The reason why no one enjoys working with you is that you are just inhospitable, you're unkind, and just started to give him just like some raw feedback. I said to my colleague, said, you do realize in that moment, you were giving this person informal mentoring. he said, I said that was actual informal mentoring. You were telling him something that was able to help him course correct if he so chose. He now had the information in his arsenal to be able to do something with it. Unfortunately, when I asked my colleague, would you have given that same advice? Would you have had that same conversation with an Asian woman? He said, absolutely not. He said I would have been much more careful with my words. George Dovolis: mean, it's the information you've given out today. And I'm definitely ask you this. This is something on your side, your legacy. What do you, when that time comes, what ⁓ do you your legacy to look like? Natalie Holder: I love that you ask your guest this question because it gets you thinking about not just the here and now, but it also gets you thinking about tomorrow morning when I wake up, who do I want that person to be when my feet hit the ground? I would say that my legacy really should be about what did it mean to live my truth? And what did it mean to help others to also live their truth? And what did we do about it? George Dovolis: Yes. Natalie Holder: Because if you didn't live your truth, if you didn't invent the future and the career that you were looking for, you have to stop and wonder what was it all for. And so I always encourage people, smell the flowers along the way. George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah. What about your family? Legacy for your family. Natalie Holder: for my family, ⁓ is, as you know, very important. We started out the conversation talking about how I chose family over ⁓ ⁓ it doesn't mean that you can't have both. It just meant I couldn't have that kind of both, not right now. ⁓ And so, know, Legacy for Family is hopefully creating a role modeling. George Dovolis: Yeah. Natalie Holder: for my children creating that pathway, bringing them on the journey. One thing ⁓ love about this show is that you talk about the journey, the journey of how and why did these things happen to you? And it's not just that they happened to you, they happened for you. And so hopefully it's a legacy of helping my family, my younger ones, and even my cousins and my other family members to understand that this life happens for us. George Dovolis: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Natalie Holder: And what is it that we're supposed to learn from this environment, learn from things that happen for us so that we can build something better? George Dovolis: incredible Natalie you're knocking it out of the park Scott you have anything final saying Scott Brandt: ⁓ no, my side is being slow right now, so go ahead and wrap it up ⁓ George Dovolis: right, well, So Natalie, if someone wants to get a hold of you, any of the information, website, e-books, or anything, please let listeners know where they can find you and talk to you. Natalie Holder: Thank you, George and Scott. ⁓ You can find me at Natalie Holder, N-A-T-A-L-I-E Holder Speaks. And it's a lovable site for now, but I am in the process of transitioning that. However, if you are that person who is in your own transition, I have an assessment. George Dovolis: Mm-hmm. Natalie Holder: It's five, you know, five or six questions. It'll take you two minutes. Really, it helps to like, you know, ask you the questions that you may have been struggling with or didn't even know to ask yourself. That helped me to figure out, hey, am I in a space right now where I am happy or has there been some sort of signal in my life, in my career that's making me question whether I have grown too big for the space that I'm in right now? George Dovolis: Wow, that's incredible. We'll post all that too on everything. guys, I got some major nuggets tonight, if you got nuggets out there and it's hitting you, just to watch it, like it, drop a comment, hit subscribe button if you're serious about growing and you want things to happen. Guys, thank you so much. Natalie. ⁓ You're amazing. Thank you again. Can't wait to see your next journey. Love to have you back on. Thank you again. Together we are stronger. We'll see you on the next episode. Natalie Holder: Thank you so much, George and Scott. George Dovolis: Thank you.