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Episode 145: Truth & Allegory (ft. Montie Hadraba) · Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries

• 0:00
  By the way, what's a popular movie that you've never seen?
• 0:05
  Oh, man There's a lot of them actually.
• 0:08
  People give me grief for that all the time.
• 0:10
  there's all sorts.
• 0:11
  Um Probably Terminator Never saw that, huh?
• 0:18
  No, but that's one of many How about another one?
• 0:22
  See, I don't even know.
• 0:23
  That's, that's my problem.
• 0:24
  People bring up movies and it...
• 0:26
  I have no idea.
• 0:27
  Did you see The Godfather?
• 0:28
  Nope.
• 0:28
  Never seen that one.
• 0:29
  Animal House?
• 0:30
  Nope.
• 0:30
  Airplane?
• 0:31
  Uh, I've seen clips.
• 0:33
  Spinal Tap?
• 0:34
  Nope.
• 0:35
  I guess we're gonna have to end this interview now.
• 0:36
  Yeah.
• 0:38
  That's just really become an old guy thing.
• 0:40
  recently met my friend's adult kids.
• 0:43
  They're in their 20s, and we were naming all these movies, and they were like,"What?" They hadn't even seen...
• 0:48
  How about this one?
• 0:48
  The Christmas Story.
• 0:49
  They hadn't seen that one.
• 0:51
  Oh, that's a little strange to me that they haven't seen it.
• 0:54
  Right.
• 0:54
  Thank you.
• 0:55
  I was making the Fra-Jile joke- Yeah and they looked at me like,"Okay, old man, you're not...
• 1:00
  You have no frame of reference for this?
• 1:02
  This is the classic of the holiday season every year.
• 1:06
  Never gets old." Right.
• 1:09
  Monty Hadreba, you joined Sherburne Lodge number 95 in 2023, and last year affiliated at Templar Lodge number 176.
• 1:18
  You're a relatively young guy and a younger Mason, but you have jumped in headfirst.
• 1:22
  You're also a member of the Minneapolis Valley Scottish Rite.
• 1:25
  I know you are all about the history, so this episode is going to live up to the Minnesota Masonic histories and mysteries.
• 1:34
  If I don't mention it now, I'll forget for sure, but a couple years ago, you visited the Grand Lodge in Japan.
• 1:40
  What was that like?
• 1:42
  It was an, an incredible experience.
• 1:45
  past Grand Master Donald Smith, who's I believe still the current Grand Secretary, Me and my wife, uh, took a tour.
• 1:53
  Although when we showed up, we had originally had the address for the Grand Lodge building as it was, and we show up, and there's no building.
• 2:02
  It's l- leveled to the ground.
• 2:04
  What?
• 2:04
  There's, there's noth- nothing there.
• 2:06
  And so my wife and I are standing there not knowing what's going on.
• 2:10
  I, uh, get a call from Donald Smith asking,"Oh, where, where are you at?""I'm pretty sure I'm at the Grand Lodge, but it doesn't exist anymore." turns out that they had just demolished the building and moved to an office building a block or two away.
• 2:26
  Uh, they're rebuilding, and I believe 2020 Seven, that building's supposed to be completed.
• 2:33
  Okay.
• 2:33
  Bigger and better and everything like that.
• 2:36
  Um, but we- But, but nonetheless, I had the address, and apparently it's not correct.
• 2:40
  Yeah.
• 2:41
  So, I guess it had just happened probably about two weeks prior to us being there.
• 2:47
  so we went over to the office building, and they gave us a tour of that, and within that two weeks they had set up everything beautifully.
• 2:54
  they had a lodge room, Scottish Rite, the whole grand lodge offices, everything.
• 3:00
  it was amazing experience.
• 3:01
  They were, doing an entered apprentice degree that night with a lodge that had translated all of the ritual into Japanese completely.
• 3:12
  So it was a completely Japanese only speaking lodge.
• 3:15
  Um, although of course anyone could sit in, but all, everything's gonna be in Japanese.
• 3:20
  It was really, really cool.
• 3:22
  That would be amazing,'cause y- Masons in, that are present will know what's going on.
• 3:27
  Oh, yeah.
• 3:27
  But then the la- Oh, that would be a...
• 3:28
  Wow.
• 3:31
  You recently gave a presentation, Lodge Education, consisting of Czechoslovakia Templars, some legends surrounding that.
• 3:40
  My email blew up from many brothers who said,"Have you had Monty on to talk about this?" Well, that was a great suggestion.
• 3:47
  I do know that what you talked about, though, is not speculation.
• 3:51
  It's not conspiracy theory.
• 3:53
  Man, the floor is yours.
• 3:56
  Yeah.
• 3:56
  So there is, thankfully, an incredible cache of documents, uh, that have also been digitized.
• 4:06
  Some, of course, there's, there's much that has not been digitized that you would have to physically travel there, to find.
• 4:14
  But thankfully, a really big current in Czechia, for preserving these things.
• 4:21
  And so, for example, the, uh, Knights of Malta in Old Town Prague, they have over 3,500 digitized documents from, I believe it's about the years 1000 to 1600, is the range.
• 4:38
  And of course, it's all in old, you know, ha- handwritten Latin, which is then translated into Czech with just a short description.
• 4:46
  So there's a whole process with trying to figure out what every single word actually says, that, uh, handwritten Latin is, is difficult.
• 4:54
  Oh, wow.
• 4:55
  within those documents, have various things about the, what the Templars were up to in, the kingdoms at that time, the kingdoms of Bohemia, Moravia, and Silesia.
• 5:06
  And Everyone thinks about, uh, you know, French Templars and Scottish Templars.
• 5:13
  That's, that's what everyone's very familiar with.
• 5:16
  Uh, and that's what largely everyone talks about.
• 5:19
  No one really talks about the Eastern European Templars in terms of, you know, Czech, Poland, you know, those countries.
• 5:29
  So it was really awesome to see that there was so much interest within the Czech Republic, within Czechia, for keeping those documents preserved Tell us more about the Old Town Astronomical Clock.
• 5:45
  Yeah, so- There's a big story with this, right?
• 5:47
  There is.
• 5:47
  Uh, there's an entire allegory that is associated with it as well, which is, which is incredible.
• 5:54
  But, um, first to go over some of what the clock is, it's kind of a running joke actually with it, with locals in, uh, Prague, that if you ask a, a, a local that lives in Prague on the street how the clock works, they couldn't tell you.
• 6:11
  but I'll, I'll let you know a little bit about it.
• 6:14
  So it has generally two sections, uh, one on the top and one on the bottom.
• 6:20
  The top is the astrological clock or astronomical clock.
• 6:24
  Of course, at the time it was built back in 1410, those were synonymous terms.
• 6:30
  But it has two figures flanking each side of it, and it displays various movements of the celestial bodies.
• 6:41
  So you have, of course, just the time, but you also have, ancient Bohemian time, which is a little bit different.
• 6:49
  So you still have a 24-hour cycle, but, you have 12 hours of daytime, 12 hours of nighttime, and that is consistent all the time.
• 7:00
  But the length of an hour is not always 60 minutes.
• 7:04
  In fact, it's almost never just 60 minutes.
• 7:08
  Um, of course, in the winter, the days are shorter, so you'll still have 12 hours of daylight, but those 12 hours will be very short, whereas the night would be longer, and vice versa for the summer.
• 7:22
  And another interesting thing about old Bohemian time or ancient Bohemian time is that the day starts at dusk.
• 7:31
  When the sun sets completely over the horizon, that's the beginning of the day.
• 7:36
  Instead of as we normally think of with the sun rising as the beginning of the day, they started their 24-hour cycle, at the moment that the sun goes over the horizon.
• 7:46
  And so on the clock itself, the ring on the outside that shows that old Bohemian time moves back and forth depending on the time of the year and when the sun sets, at what time.
• 7:59
  so instead of, you know...
• 8:00
  Of course, now we have midnight as the, that being the new day.
• 8:04
  The standard, yeah.
• 8:04
  Yeah.
• 8:06
  It also shows, um, this on the hand that moves around the clock.
• 8:11
  There's a sun that moves up and down the hand, which displays, um, with these lines going across the clock, and it's difficult without an image.
• 8:22
  But- I'm trying to picture it, though.
• 8:23
  Yeah.
• 8:24
  the sun moves up and down on the hand, and the lines, as they spread out across the clock, get wider.
• 8:32
  And so if the sun is higher up on the hand, it will have, uh...
• 8:37
  It'll display longer day hours, and if it's further down, shorter day hours.
• 8:44
  It also shows the time of the fixed stars.
• 8:47
  So of course, uh, one day is 24 hours, which is a 360, uh, 361-degree turn for the Earth'cause it has...
• 8:59
  The Earth has to make up one degree because it's moving around the sun Whereas to get, um, to the fixed stars in the same position in the sky, it's only 360-degree turn, which is a little bit shorter then.
• 9:11
  something like 23 hours, 54 minutes, and six seconds, something like that.
• 9:18
  So wait, what year does this date back to?
• 9:20
  Uh, this was built in 1410.
• 9:22
  How in the world?
• 9:24
  This is complex.
• 9:26
  Clearly, the locals of today, the residents don't even know how to read this or what to do with this thing.
• 9:32
  this is fascinating.
• 9:33
  Yeah.
• 9:34
  It, and it is absolutely a marvel of engineering, which is, why it, uh, is not surprising that it has an entire story associated with it, of course.
• 9:44
  But it also, um, it shows the location and phase of the moon.
• 9:49
  Um, it shows the zodiac, which zodiac we're in.
• 9:53
  Shows the ecliptics.
• 9:55
  It shows, the tropics, and it also shows, a couple different other versions of, of how people would measure time at that period of time in history.
• 10:08
  Originally, it was set to the exact time of where it was, but later on they recalibrated it to that Central European Time.
• 10:18
  Does anybody know how to recalibrate or do anything with this clock today?
• 10:25
  I...
• 10:25
  Definitely.
• 10:25
  They, I mean, the, it takes constant maintenance- Okay I'm, I'm, I'm sure the, the Czech government is very much on top of that.
• 10:32
  You think so?
• 10:33
  Because there's a, there's a superstition that if the clock ever stops, it's bad luck for 100 years, and that actually ties into the story associated with it.
• 10:44
  There is a little bit more to the clock even than that.
• 10:47
  Uh, there, so there's those two figures that I mentioned flanking each side.
• 10:51
  Uh, represent greed, lust, vanity, and death.
• 10:56
  And this, there's a skeleton representing death that has an hourglass, and he has a bell.
• 11:00
  And every hour, on the hour, he rings his bell, nodding his head yes, and all the three other figures on top, uh, nod their heads no, uh, signifying that they don't want to go.
• 11:13
  on the bottom section of the clock, there is a 365-day calendar, uh, with two more figures on each side.
• 11:20
  And on the calendar, there is a name for each day.
• 11:24
  and we're not talking just, like, September 22nd.
• 11:26
  There's a name that is associated individually with each day that has a unique name.
• 11:32
  there's also a syllable and then a single letter that represents a musical note for each day.
• 11:41
  And this is associated with something called the Ciceronian, which is a 365-syllable poem or song or, you know, mnemonic, a, a memory poem that you can recite to find the name of any of the days of the year.
• 11:57
  Uh, this is also associated with a bunch of pictures of the mo- representing the months, the zodiacs, and the year itself.
• 12:07
  And it is in- it's, it's absolutely incredible to see.
• 12:11
  Um, the two figures on each side of this would be the, chronicler.
• 12:17
  There's also St.
• 12:18
  Michael the Archangel.
• 12:19
  there's a philosopher and alchemist as well those figures are very much associated with the history of Prague and Bohemia, Moravia in general.
• 12:35
  so to get into the story with this clock though- Yeah, what's the story?
• 12:37
  Th- this is...
• 12:39
  the complexity for the time and how this all came together is blowing, it's just mind-blowing.
• 12:44
  It is.
• 12:45
  It, it's absolutely incredible.
• 12:47
  And, you know, for the longest time, everyone thought that this story was, was the truth, that, uh, it was the factual story of how the, the tower was built and the clock itself.
• 13:01
  It wasn't until really very recently in history that we discovered the actual documents of who built it.
• 13:07
  But the story goes that, uh, there was a man named, uh, the Master Hanuš, and Master Hanuš was a master clocksmith.
• 13:16
  And when I looked back to try and find a clocksmithing guild, uh, in Central Europe at that time, I did find one that was listed.
• 13:24
  It's, they still had some form of charter for it in England, and it was dated 1401 for the Kingdom of Bohemia.
• 13:32
  So there was definitely a clocksmithing guild at that time, which of course there was.
• 13:38
  They were, they were building.
• 13:40
  So the Master Hanuš, uh, was thought to be one of those masters of this, of this guild, but, uh, turned out this was an allegory.
• 13:48
  So he is hired by the Council of Prague to build what they call an Orloj, which is Czech for astrological or astronomical clock.
• 13:59
  although if you ever say Orloj to a Czech person, they're gonna know which one you're talking about, the most famous one.
• 14:04
  There's only one, right?
• 14:05
  Oh, there's, there's, there's really only one that, uh- Or the one.
• 14:09
  The, there's the one.
• 14:10
  Okay.
• 14:10
  Yeah.
• 14:11
  There's, there are other astrological, astronomical clocks, but they f- they pale in comparison really.
• 14:18
  So everyone will know that you're talking about the Orloj, yes.
• 14:23
  So they hire him and he gets to work, him and his apprentice.
• 14:28
  Uh, the apprentices of these guilds oftentimes spent their days filing on gears, trying to get, uh, all the, the mundane work done.
• 14:39
  Complexities, right?
• 14:40
  Oh, yeah.
• 14:41
  And as you worked up, of course they had, you know, entered apprentice and a journeyman and a master, and through those ranks you would learn different things.
• 14:50
  A, a big part of the job was actually working with metals.
• 14:53
  Uh, you had to create these gears and they...
• 14:56
  You had to use alloys for them and such, and, a lot of mathematics of course to calculate the movements of the celestial spheres.
• 15:04
  There's a lot, there was a lot of astronomy, astrology, and mathematics that went into this, as well as metallurgy.
• 15:11
  So he gets to work with his apprentice and they create, of course, the greatest clock that anyone has ever seen.
• 15:18
  when he unveils it to the world and to the council, it becomes the pride of the city and of the country, but the council has a problem.
• 15:29
  They, they have a worry.
• 15:31
  What if the Master Hanush creates another clock for another town somewhere else that's even better than this one?
• 15:40
  What would, what are we gonna do?
• 15:41
  So they have three troublemakers, go to the Master Hanush in, in his study in his quarters.
• 15:49
  Three guys.
• 15:50
  Yeah.
• 15:50
  Three guys.
• 15:50
  Okay.
• 15:51
  And they assault him with a...
• 15:55
  It, and the story changes depending on who's telling it, just like any good legend, but sometimes it's a hot iron, sometimes it's a dagger or some sort of blade, but they blind him is the main point.
• 16:07
  He, he's blinded in some way by these three guys And later on, uh, the Master Henosh is deciding what he should do.
• 16:16
  He decides to go to his machine that he's created.
• 16:19
  He has his apprentice guide him to the heart of the machine, and once he's there, of course, he knows it even though he's blind.
• 16:25
  He knows it like the back of his hand.
• 16:27
  And this is another point that the story changes depending on who's telling it.
• 16:31
  My favorite version of, of the ending of the story is that he finds the heart of the machine.
• 16:36
  He takes his right hand, thrusts it into the machine, cutting it off, stopping the machine for 100 years, and falling dead on the spot.
• 16:46
  Uh, there are other versions where he, simply takes out a gear from the heart of the machine.
• 16:53
  The machine stops for 100 years, and he falls dead on the spot.
• 16:56
  and then there's another one where he throws his entire body into the machine.
• 17:01
  Um, but I very much like the, the right hand one.
• 17:04
  It...
• 17:04
  I think it has a little bit more symbol- symbology to it.
• 17:07
  Uh, what, what does that mean to you?
• 17:09
  Well, you know, the right hand is very significant, uh, in masonry, of course.
• 17:17
  Seat of fidelity.
• 17:17
  The seat of fidelity.
• 17:19
  And, that seems to be, uh, if that was the way that this was told at that time, very apparent to the people that were telling it and receiving it something I, I had mentioned in the beginning was, uh, the documents surrounding this really were only found recently And everyone had thought that the Master Hanush was a real person.
• 17:44
  it wasn't until just recently that they found it was actually two people that built the clock.
• 17:49
  and that was another discrepancy as well as, uh, everyone thought that it was built in 1490 because that's what the legend held, but the document states that it is 1410.
• 18:01
  It was built by two people.
• 18:02
  One was a mathematician, the other an astrologer.
• 18:06
  Uh, they were both members of the, uh, university, the Charles University in Prague, But they were the actual builders, and it's incredible to me that their history was almost entirely lost.
• 18:22
  If this document had never been found, uh, we would have gone on for all of history thinking that this Master Hanush was the true builder, When was this approximately discovered?
• 18:33
  I believe it was in the 1900s, maybe late 1900s.
• 18:36
  Oh, okay.
• 18:37
  It was pretty recent, uh, in terms of- Historically speaking, yeah.
• 18:39
  Okay historically speaking.
• 18:41
  it may have been, um, 80 years ago, which again, h- recent historically speaking.
• 18:47
  but it is incred- incredible to me that, uh, that was kind of a lost history, it really adds some depth to the allegory itself, which was so spread through the, the Czech lineage.
• 19:03
  it's something that they would teach in schools.
• 19:05
  Many people even would mistake the Master Hanush for the later, uh, Jan Hus, who was a, um, a Czech reformer that became very famous and, one of the pillars of, of Czechia and its history.
• 19:23
  So this story you've shared has been something in a school curriculum as part of history in that area?
• 19:31
  Absolutely.
• 19:32
  Yes.
• 19:32
  and that, that goes for, almost all of the legends I can think of are something that is very much passed down.
• 19:39
  That, and that's kind of a, a point that they make in the Czech Republic, in Czechia.
• 19:45
  They have a really rich mythological history and legend-telling history, and this really goes back to, when you, you can get back into the 800s.
• 19:55
  They still didn't have a written language yet, and that was really because they had a poetic memory language, just like the Sissyon, the, 365-syllable poem that you can recite to find any day of the year.
• 20:09
  That went for all aspects of society back then.
• 20:12
  the king was also the judge, and it was his job to memorize all the laws of the land, and then to, of course, teach that mouth to ear through oral tradition down through the line.
• 20:26
  And it really wasn't until, I believe, just after the 1200s that there was an official written language.
• 20:33
  Before that, it wasn't official, um, although of course it did exist after Cyril, But At that time, with that poetic memory system being passed down, that way of thinking really nev- never died, and the legends, throughout the Czech lands are extensive and incredible.
• 20:55
  Would you say more there than elsewhere?
• 20:57
  I think they have a little bit more of a tendency to, uh, understand allegory, being that it was so recent to them.
• 21:09
  recent in, in relative terms again, because we're s- we are talking almost- Yes a thousand years ago, really.
• 21:15
  but even after the, the official language was turned to Latin, that, uh, that tradition very much stayed alive, through, through the ages, and it, it continues in y- you know, these stories that are passed down today.
• 21:32
  When they built this tower, there w- there was an allegory associated with it, and that is very much something that still lives in the Czech people of the, the art of poetic memory spirit, you could say.
• 21:51
  And a lost art.
• 21:51
  Is that something we are losing or maybe are, don't have the grasp with?
• 21:56
  'Cause like you said, you go up to someone who lives there,"Tell me about this clock," they, uh, they don't know.
• 22:02
  Or many- Yeah probably don't.
• 22:04
  that's sort of the thing that I've seen is, uh, many of the locals, they wouldn't be able to tell you how it works, but, I have seen that many of them can recite the, the poetic memory ci- uh, not cipher, but poetic memory, ciceron that is associated with the clock to find any of the days of the year.
• 22:24
  Have you seen this?
• 22:25
  Have you visited?
• 22:26
  I have unfortunately not been able to visit, and that's, that sort of gets into the research I've been doing.
• 22:32
  I have very much been relying on what has been digitized in documents, in museums by different orders, like the Knights of Malta with their, with their cache of digitized documents.
• 22:45
  and again, it's...
• 22:46
  I, I'm extremely lucky to, and, and thankful and happy to see that there is a current of people preserving these documents in the Czech Republic that, that want to see their history preserved and remembered.
• 23:01
  When you touched on the Clockmaker Guilds and the Knights of Malta, how did all of this have perhaps an impact on the formation of Freemasonry in Czechoslovakia?
• 23:13
  That is, uh, an extensive history that honestly, it puts Game of Thrones to shame, I would say.
• 23:19
  It- Now, that's a statement.
• 23:21
  Yeah.
• 23:22
  it is quite extensive, and I'm sure there's many people that have actually learned quite a bit about it in school without realizing it, because it was so integral to the rest of European history.
• 23:35
  and starting really far back, we can look at figures like Jan Hus, which I mentioned often gets mistaken with the Master Hanush.
• 23:45
  Uh, he was a reformer, back in the beginning of the 14, uh, 1400s, so at the time that the clock was being built, which then adds to the confusion.
• 23:58
  Right.
• 23:58
  Uh, uh, and the names being similar and all of that.
• 24:01
  And his whole movement turned into something that was called the Hussite Wars, Hus being his last name, the Hussites.
• 24:09
  Um, after Jan Hus was burnt at the stake, for his, uh, preaching reformations, uh, the Hussite Wars began, and the real whole goal was, uh, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, And- When the Hussite Wars ended, they did get some, some freedoms.
• 24:33
  It, it was generally considered a victory, but they, they continued, you know, the kingdoms of Bohemia and Moravia continued to Fight for independence really.
• 24:44
  And this, this contin- this was a continuous struggle through the ages over hundreds of years over and over again, didn't really stop until we get very recent in, in history.
• 24:56
  So skipping forward a little bit, you have, Charles and him, founding the Charles University and Charles Bridge and other different, uh, historical points that are very much still around.
• 25:12
  And I mean, if you go to Charles Bridge today, doesn't matter what time, it's gonna be filled with people.
• 25:18
  it's an incredible piece of art.
• 25:20
  And Charles University, of course, we're talking 1300s.
• 25:22
  It's a very old university.
• 25:25
  It's hard for us to imagine that in our infancy.
• 25:28
  Yes.
• 25:29
  Yeah.
• 25:29
  By comparison.
• 25:30
  Right.
• 25:32
  but actually skipping ahead, we, we have, after him, a figure that has become synonymous with, uh, the Czechs and, and their culture in general.
• 25:43
  in English we'd say John Amos Comenius was his name.
• 25:49
  so this is, um, late 1500s, early 1600s.
• 25:52
  Uh, he is also sort of a, a reformer, this guy, he just cannot catch a break.
• 26:00
  He, is also considered the, uh, father of modern education actually.
• 26:05
  throughout his life he cannot catch a break.
• 26:07
  He at a very young age loses most of his family, and has to go live with his aunt.
• 26:14
  because of his, uh, im- impoverished upbringing, actually isn't able to start education until he's in his later teens, I believe about 16 years old.
• 26:23
  incredibly talented and he goes on to become the rector of Charles University even, pretty quickly.
• 26:31
  You know, especially for someone that starts their education at 16 years old, uh, we see that he just takes off with his education.
• 26:37
  But it seems that he was very much a self-educator in that way as well.
• 26:41
  He was bringing forth ideas that were very much, by many educators at the time, looked at really strangely.
• 26:48
  Like, uh, you know, that teaching kids, should be something that they can have fun doing.
• 26:55
  That it, it should be fun to learn.
• 26:57
  And he introduced play learning and, meeting children with what they're familiar, and then moving to the unfamiliar.
• 27:06
  use something that they're interested in to teach them something that they're unaware of.
• 27:11
  And these were, by many educators, scoffed at- Oh, I bet at the time.
• 27:15
  Yeah, you c- you couldn't even imagine that learning in a punishing way is not gonna resonate Right.
• 27:22
  Learning is not supposed to be fun.
• 27:24
  Right.
• 27:24
  he couldn't really catch a break.
• 27:26
  So, after having that pretty rude, upbringing in his early years, he went on to marry and have two children, which they all passed away as well.
• 27:37
  then he ended up marrying another time, and she also passed away.
• 27:44
  And so he ended up marrying a third time and, and he ended up, in that third marriage, he f- he finally, that lasted until the end of his days.
• 27:51
  But he, he simply could not catch a break, and this goes further with what happens at the turn, when we get to the beginning of the 1600s.
• 28:03
  So beginning of the 1600s, we've got some tensions in Bohemia, as there always has been this entire time.
• 28:12
  the emperor, Rudolph II, the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, he moves his seat to Prague, and he fills his court with astrologers, alchemists, diviners.
• 28:27
  He, he's really into all the mysteries of the universe.
• 28:32
  Some people that are in his court would be like John Dee, uh, Edward Kelley, as well as, Tycho Brahe, what, probably the most famous astrologer in history.
• 28:44
  he proposed a system of where he, he liked the idea of the Earth being the center of the universe, uh, philosophically, but in function, he liked the Sun being the center of the solar system.
• 29:00
  So he actually combined the two, where it was the Sun in the center of the solar system literally, and the Earth at the center of the universe metaphorically or, or philosophically.
• 29:10
  Really interesting system.
• 29:12
  so Rudolph II, sets up all sorts of alchemist shops throughout Prague, and throughout the old town you can go to these museums.
• 29:20
  some of them have even just been recently discovered.
• 29:23
  There was a flood a couple years ago that, uh, uncovered a underground alchemy chamber that was unknown, and now it's been turned into a museum.
• 29:32
  You can go and see all the old equipment, of all the experiments that they were doing.
• 29:37
  But it didn't surface until this flood happened.
• 29:39
  Yeah, and that was just a few years ago.
• 29:41
  there are other places that are more well-known, like Golden Lane.
• 29:45
  appropriately named Golden Lane, where, uh, the alchemists lived.
• 29:49
  But there's all sorts of tunnels and channels and chambers under Prague that have, uh, have been found, and I'm sure many that have not been found.
• 29:56
  But, uh, Rudolph II, he gives the, um, the Reformation some power.
• 30:04
  He signs a document basically saying that they ha- have the right to practice, as Protestants, this continues until it, it doesn't.
• 30:15
  So Rudolph II leaves the throne, and Bohemia refuses to take the new, the new emperor because they want to keep their religious freedoms.
• 30:26
  So they end up, throwing some of the clergy out of a window out of Prague Castle.
• 30:33
  Uh, now they survive, three of them.
• 30:36
  Uh, they fell something like 52 feet, but they survived, this causes all sorts of trouble, of course.
• 30:42
  I mean, they already weren't accepting of the new emperor, and so they invite, the newlyweds Frederick V and Elizabeth Stuart, who had just been married, uh, Elizabeth Stuart being James I's daughter, they had an incredible wedding, um, the wedding of all weddings.
• 31:01
  James I spent an incredible amount of money on their wedding.
• 31:05
  And so Bohemia asks Frederick V and Elizabeth Stuart to come and be the new king and queen of Bohemia, which James actually did not approve of.
• 31:18
  James was very much in the business, it seemed, of trying to stop the end of the world, of what-- There was so much tension in Europe at that time with Protestants, the Catholics, and other movements that were all happening at the same time, of course would eventually turn into a terrible, terrible religious war in Europe, and James I was very much trying to stop that.
• 31:40
  So he did not approve of them moving to Bohemia, but they did anyway, and they were nicknamed the Winter King and Winter Queen because their reign only lasted one winter And- What happened?
• 31:53
  this, uh, was caused by the Battle of White Mountain.
• 31:58
  So the Battle of White Mountain is really where we see the, something called the Thirty Years' War take off.
• 32:05
  And in terms of deadliest, uh, European conflicts, you have World War II is number one, World War I is number two, and then the Thirty Years' War.
• 32:15
  again, this is, uh, 1620, so a long time ago, but, uh, we're- Significant, though it's very significant.
• 32:22
  Uh, we're looking at some- anywhere between 4.5 to 8 million deaths throughout the Thirty Years' War.
• 32:29
  Um, even other wars like the Eighty Years' War were not as deadly.
• 32:33
  And people really thought that it was, like, the end of the world.
• 32:37
  so back to Comenius.
• 32:40
  Comenius is, of course, he's, uh, alive at this time.
• 32:43
  He's very much a part of, uh, what's going on in Prague at this time as well, the beginning of the 1600s, we see s- documents, popping up about, you know, new philosophies and stuff like that, especially with the Rosicrucian manifestos that come out officially in 1614.
• 32:59
  Comenius is very much, a part of those intellectual circles.
• 33:04
  He's reading these documents.
• 33:05
  They had circulated, of course, not publicly at first, and Comenius is actually one of the greatest examples of this because he writes in his book, and it's an incredible book, I highly recommend it, uh, it's called The Labyrinth of the World and the Paradise of the Heart.
• 33:21
  he writes about the first, uh, Rosicrucian manifesto that comes out, the Fama Fraternitatis, although he dates it as, uh, 1612.
• 33:31
  generally we always, see that the Fama is dated as 1614, only in German originally, but Comenius writes in his writings that it was 1612, and it was in Latin and German.
• 33:45
  so that's an interesting, you know...
• 33:46
  But at that point, we're taking Comenius' word for it rather than what's, what Comenius has documented versus what other people have documented.
• 33:53
  So if anything, it's a typo at best.
• 33:58
  You think that's what it was?
• 33:58
  Yeah.
• 33:58
  Well, but it is, uh, also documented that these manifestos were circulating, not publicly at first.
• 34:05
  it, it is a possibility that Comenius got his hands on these, documents when they were circulating not publicly.
• 34:11
  he was very much a part of these intellectual circles.
• 34:14
  He went to, study in the same city as the supposed writer of these manifestos, uh, Valentin Andrea.
• 34:21
  so they certainly could have met.
• 34:24
  They, at the very least, were a part of the same intellectual circles.
• 34:27
  So, when all this goes down with the Thirty Years' War, they- Yeah, what's, so what's the conclusion of that?
• 34:34
  Yeah.
• 34:34
  So- Terrible war, in the, in the top five of all time.
• 34:38
  How is there a resolution, if that's even the, the appropriate word?
• 34:42
  There really isn't one is, is the thing.
• 34:47
  It continues, of course, for 30 years, but in the, in the beginning, in 1620, there's many Bohemians, that have to go into exile, and Comenius is one of them.
• 34:59
  you know, very much a part of the Reformation, so, he originally goes into hiding, and then eventually goes into exile.
• 35:06
  many Bohemians that were a part of the Reformation or, um, had views that were, separate from the church had to then go into exile in many countries.
• 35:15
  Can't have, can't have that.
• 35:16
  Right.
• 35:18
  he went to Sweden, I believe it was.
• 35:21
  spent the rest of his years really hoping that he could go back to his homeland, but never was able to, and he wrote and wrote and wrote while he was in exile.
• 35:31
  when they exiled him, they also burnt many of his books.
• 35:36
  They burnt his library.
• 35:38
  you know, speaking of, of that as well with Frederick V and Elizabeth Stuart, you talk about, uh, propaganda, uh, nowadays.
• 35:47
  they put so much propaganda against, against those two to the point where people were even afraid of mathematics.
• 35:55
  it's incredible in its, uh, in how terrible it is the entire war you've got propaganda to the point of people being afraid of mathematics and four to, 4.5 to 8 million deaths through war, through famine, through disease.
• 36:11
  It re- people really thought that it was like the end of the world.
• 36:14
  Yeah, the end of the world.
• 36:15
  I can't even fathom, We get into the 1700s.
• 36:18
  We get very much into a sort of, uh, sort of renaissance of esotericism I wanted to ask what impact that had on when you get into the 1700s and, and more recent.
• 36:29
  Some people that, uh, make the argument that Comenius actually continued the Rosicrucian movement.
• 36:37
  in 1628, there were correspondences between Valentin Andrea and Comenius.
• 36:44
  and Valentin Andrea is very much, tired from the Thirty Years' War, and Comenius, even though he's gone through probably way more than Valentin Andrea at that point, is like encouraging him on.
• 36:56
  He's like,"No, you gotta keep going." The, the, the work- Just a little more.
• 36:59
  The work continues.
• 37:01
  and so Valentin Andrea, what it looks like is he's like,"Wow, this guy is really enthusiastic.
• 37:07
  Uh, you can take over then if you, if you, if you're so- It's all yours.
• 37:10
  Yeah.
• 37:11
  at least that's, that's one way of interpreting their, their correspondences together, um, which it's, it's incredible that we have any of those documents in the first place.
• 37:20
  Preserved, yeah.
• 37:21
  Yeah.
• 37:22
  he continues to, to write.
• 37:23
  He cr- continues to try and reform education, and very much of what we have today as our education comes from him, but also very much of what we get into the 1700s and all these different orders that stop, start popping up.
• 37:37
  In 1717, of course, we see, uh, in England, the first Grand Lodge have some of their documents appear with, uh, Anderson's Constitutions.
• 37:47
  if you've ever read Anderson's Constitutions, and I encourage everyone to take a look at it, it's incredibly interesting what was written at that time, it's very much communicated through allegory.
• 37:59
  Uh, you know, you gotta read between the lines on what's actually being said.
• 38:03
  And that was very much how, um, Comenius wrote and, and many others, but, you, you can find a lot of that sort of, um, new philosophy, throughout that.
• 38:14
  And Comenius also had something called, he called Pansophia, which was a universal wisdom or universal knowledge.
• 38:21
  he wanted to write a book that had, it was essentially like an encyclopedia of all human knowledge, it actually was lost in a fire after 50 years of him working on it, so it was, it was never completed, uh, of course, and he, it w- it was, it's entirely lost at this point.
• 38:38
  But still, his other works went on to influence all of these movements, the, the Freemasons, and countless other things that were popping up throughout the 1700s and In the, uh, 1700s, we still see a current happening underground and, uh, there are documents mainly associated with the arrests of, of these people.
• 38:59
  So we had a, Rosicrucian revival in Moravia, and the main reason we know is because it, their arrests are documented.
• 39:08
  Is that really cause and effect?
• 39:11
  very much a part of, uh, practicing, you know, the sciences it's almost unreal to think about nowadays, you know, practicing the sciences and, and getting arrested.
• 39:20
  but this was, you know, in the grand scheme of things, not too long ago really.
• 39:25
  we then see, a current of Czech, continuing the Rosicrucian movement, but also, Hermeticism and, Christian mysticism, and this is all going in parallel with, uh, Freemasonry that's developing at that time as well.
• 39:42
  they're a part of the Austrian Empire during this time, and so at a certain point, the Austrian Empire says, uh,"Nope, uh, Freemasonry is illegal.
• 39:51
  Can't have anything like that." So, uh, it goes underground again.
• 39:56
  So the first Freemasons of Czechoslovakia, you know, back in the mid-1700s, it all goes underground.
• 40:03
  It's no longer public.
• 40:04
  not until the later 1800s even.
• 40:07
  We, we make a big jump.
• 40:09
  definitely documents from different orders showing that there was an underground current of, of different orders, like Neo-Templar orders that, that popped up.
• 40:21
  But was it a shared reality to have to go underground for all the various reasons of the, the, the, in big air quotes, controversy of science and free thinking?
• 40:32
  Absolutely.
• 40:33
  So- we are lucky that, uh, we have any sort of documents of, of things like this going underground, and it's mainly because, the Czech people would leave the Czech Republic and go to places like France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, to be initiated into these things, into Freemasonry, into other different, you know, various, uh, neo-Templar Christian mystic orders that some, still exist, most, do not.
• 41:04
  You know, many of these orders are around for 30 years, and they fizzle out.
• 41:09
  but there, there was definitely a big drive for that, uh, in, in Bohemia and Moravia.
• 41:13
  The, the Czech people wanted something like that, it seems.
• 41:16
  What, what was the draw, do you think?
• 41:18
  I think it has very much to do with, with the, the history, that spirit of continually striving for that freedom of thought, freedom of religion, all of that.
• 41:28
  definitely was still happening throughout all this time, and it shows when, of course, 19th to the 20th centuries The Czechs gain their independence, and we see Czechoslovakia form, and so they become, independent from the Austrian Empire at that point, and Freemasonry explodes.
• 41:48
  Of course, it can now become public, we have the first real, grand lodge of the Czechs and all of that forming.
• 41:57
  And the main father of Czech Freemasonry at this point is usually attributed as Alphonse Mucha, some people might recognize that name, not for Freemasonry at all.
• 42:10
  he was at one point essentially the poster boy of the Art Nouveau movement in France.
• 42:17
  born in Moravia, had a similar sort of, event happen to him as with Comenius, where he loses his family at a young age, mainly to disease.
• 42:28
  We can't fathom, by the way, the loss that people incurred at that.
• 42:32
  All the time with disease The challenges were heaped on people.
• 42:36
  When you really stop and look at the loss that incurred, it's incredible.
• 42:39
  It's a testament to the human indomitable spirit, really, people like Alphonse Mucha and Comenius were just persevering lights in the darkness, really.
• 42:51
  So Mucha, he, uh, he actually, flunks out of school at a younger age, and, uh, he's kind of not sure what he wants to do, but he eventually figures out he wants to be an artist, especially after he sees that, uh, he can actually make a living doing it, uh, when he sees other artists that, are not starving artists, that they're, they're doing good for themselves as artists.
• 43:14
  So he, he decides that's gonna be his pursuit.
• 43:17
  at a certain point, he moves to France, and he doesn't really move back to the Czech Republic for a while.
• 43:22
  but does actually end up being sort of a starving artist in France for a while.
• 43:27
  But future rock star.
• 43:28
  Yeah, exactly.
• 43:29
  E-eventually really breaking through and becoming, the face of the Art Nouveau mo-movement in France and in, in Europe in general.
• 43:39
  he ends up being initiated into Freemasonry in France, When he got back to the Czech Republic in, you know, right around when, Czechoslovakia became independent, I believe in 1916, they immediately went to start this grand lodge, chartered from the Grand Orient of, of France, and there were competing grand lodges.
• 44:01
  There was, uh, charters from Italy, from Switzerland, from Germany.
• 44:05
  France ended up winning out actually, and Mucha's grand lodge ended up, being the one, although it was only for a couple years, and then they created their own Czech, grand lodge.
• 44:18
  You know, once they had everything in place, France was basically there to, to hold their hand for a little bit of the way and then, you know,"All right, time for them to soar." So they took off with it and, very much broke away from the Grand Orient of France, of course, and, became recognized by the rest of the world.
• 44:37
  and that included, you know, getting all of the other grand lodges that were trying to start to, to come all under this Czech grand lodge.
• 44:46
  incredible pursuit.
• 44:46
  He became the first grand master of that grand lodge, he also started the Scottish Rite in Czechoslovakia, and he became the second SGIG for the Scottish Rite there.
• 44:58
  So he did his time as Grand Master, had someone else, be the first SGIG, and then he took over as SGIG after that.
• 45:05
  He's a busy guy.
• 45:06
  Yeah, very much so.
• 45:07
  And all during this time, he is still very much painting.
• 45:11
  he created something called The Slav Epic, which went over all of the, the history of the Czechs.
• 45:16
  These paintings are huge and incredible and, you know, of course done in his unique art style.
• 45:23
  You can look him up online.
• 45:24
  you know, they gotta be something like 20 feet tall, almost 25 feet- Man, that's massive wide.
• 45:29
  Yeah.
• 45:29
  They're, they're huge, and there's a bunch of them.
• 45:32
  Uh, they're on display in the Czech Republic.
• 45:35
  you can, again, see pictures online, but, the way that Alphonse Mucha passes away, actually, now we get into, the continued challenge of the Czechs for their independence.
• 45:48
  So of course, World War II r- rolls around, and for the Czechs, it was in the 1930s when the Nazis take over.
• 45:56
  they occupy Czechoslovakia, and public assemblies are banned.
• 46:01
  Are banned, yeah.
• 46:02
  Uh, Freemasonry is banned.
• 46:04
  In fact, Freemasons in general are interrogated and of course, Alphonse Mucha being the father of Czech Freemasonry.
• 46:13
  A lot of notoriety for him.
• 46:14
  Yes.
• 46:15
  Uh- What happened to him?
• 46:16
  He was in- interrogated by the Gestapo and subsequently killed by them.
• 46:23
  it's unreal to think that was not even 100 years ago.
• 46:27
  and that is incredibly recent in, in the terms of, of history.
• 46:33
  So even though there was a ban on public assembly, over 100,000 people showed up to his funeral in the, a giant, assembly out in Prague, it was such a incredibly huge assembly that the Nazis just, they couldn't do anything- Yeah about it at that point.
• 46:52
  And everyone was coming out for this.
• 46:55
  And that's a testament to, again, the indomitable human spirit, but also to what kind of guy Alphonse was, and just how much he meant to the community we also see people from other, different philosophical, uh, religious, and esoteric currents at that time being interrogated by the Gestapo, and also passing away under mysterious circumstances.
• 47:23
  It's, incredibly unfortunate thing, and a lot was lost in terms of, you know, moving forward with Freemasonry and with, those currents at that time.
• 47:34
  So you've touched on a recurring theme throughout history.
• 47:37
  Free thinking, not good.
• 47:39
  Uh, we could dissect this a number of different ways, but th- that is the recurring aspect that happens throughout time, people coming together, that while they all may believe in deity but aren't arguing about who's right and who's wrong, has run into some speed bumps multiple times, and some with very unfortunate endings.
• 48:03
  How did Freemasonry survive all of this?
• 48:05
  There's a lot of these groups have come and gone.
• 48:08
  There's still some that are maybe off the radar but here we are, a thriving organization in the 21st century, open to people that have a belief in a deity, that wanna become a better version of themselves.
• 48:22
  I still struggle to see how this isn't compatible with the major religions who, who look at Freemasons with that skeptical eye.
• 48:30
  It seems like the, the skepticism parallels or is connected to the same level of unease that existed hundreds of years ago in the Czech Republic, it almost didn't last.
• 48:43
  after the Nazi occupation, there was also the communist coup that happened, and it further suppressed Freemasonry.
• 48:51
  But, it survives.
• 48:53
  It, it continues.
• 48:54
  And, here in America, we were having a boom of Freemasonry at that time, whereas in the Czech Republic, it was very much suppressed.
• 49:04
  And I think that, is very much just, you know, the, the base level, like, okay, yeah, we've got Freemasonry thriving in other places and doing not so great in other places.
• 49:17
  But, uh, as time moves on, brothers help each other out.
• 49:22
  And, that passing down of, of the knowledge of, brotherly love, relief, and truth, to be able to help a brother when he's down, especially to rekindle what's been lost after years of suppression, is, really, the least that we can do as Freemasons for our brothers in, in countries that are having their rights, their freedoms suppressed You've shared some fascinating perspective today in the history and that timeline.
• 50:00
  there still exists a suspicion about organizations, that there's something nefarious going on or there's a conspiracy theory.
• 50:08
  It, I I don't know how we could better showcase the reality of what the Masonic fraternity stands for, as you just touched on it.
• 50:18
  It's friendship, it's personal growth, it's community, it's getting along with people.
• 50:26
  How could that be a bad thing?
• 50:28
  There, there's a lot of very intelligent people that see one bizarre perspective on the internet and they run with it.
• 50:37
  And it parallels some of the, maybe not quite as dramatic, but it parallels some of the stories you've shared from literally hundreds of years ago.
• 50:47
  Getting to, you know, Nazi Germany, they were one of the greatest publishers of propaganda against the Freemasons.
• 50:56
  what's the best thing that you can do to disempower or get rid of the good guys?
• 51:04
  Well, you make everyone think that they're the bad guys What do you think could actually unite most people?
• 51:14
  There's a saying that I very much like, and I, I think about it very often.
• 51:18
  It's the only words written in a chapel in, in Scotland, and it has to do, I think, very much with our philosophy as Masons and the traditions that, that we try to pass on as Masons.
• 51:38
  And it says that, Wine is strong, the king is stronger, women are stronger still, but truth conquers all." So truth would be my answer.
• 51:54
  Monty Hadreba, you have shared a deep dive of information that is going to lead all of us to do some serious reading.
• 52:03
  appreciate you coming in today, and you have truly given the history portion of Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries its due.
• 52:11
  Thank you very much for having me.
• 52:12
  It was an honor to be asked to come on, and it's been an absolute blast.
• 52:16
  Thank you very much