Latest / Mental Health Matters / CASEBOOK: Workplace Matters – Women’s Rights At Work

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CASEBOOK: Workplace Matters – Women’s Rights At Work · Mental Health Matters

0:03
SPEAKER_09: Good morning and welcome to Mental Health Matters Office Hours with me, Dr.
0:07
SPEAKER_09: Audrey Tang.
0:08
SPEAKER_09: My co-host is Judith Crozier, and this is the show where we unpack all things workplace well-being.
0:13
SPEAKER_09: Now, as much as we've heard about feminine privilege, there's an awful lot of feminine disadvantage as well.
0:19
SPEAKER_09: Where in a professional environment you get asked about what you're wearing, not about the job at hand.
0:24
SPEAKER_09: So to help us unpack some of these issues that women face in the workplace, we have career coach and HR consultant Amanda Connolly in the studio.
0:33
SPEAKER_11: Welcome to the show, Amanda.
0:34
SPEAKER_11: It's lovely to meet you.
0:36
SPEAKER_11: Can you tell us a bit about your professional journey so far?
0:40
SPEAKER_10: Sure, yeah.
0:41
SPEAKER_10: I'm much like anybody else of my age, I fell into HR about sort of 25-30 years ago after I was office managing.
0:48
SPEAKER_10: I had a sponsorship to do a master's and then it sort of took me to another level of HR.
0:53
SPEAKER_10: I was doing lots of leading consulting.
0:57
SPEAKER_10: I had a very fantastic career.
0:59
SPEAKER_10: I worked for a lot of progressive companies, so it was really rewarding for probably about 20 odd years.
1:06
SPEAKER_10: Perimenopause hit me about five years ago, misdiagnosed, I was put on antidepressants.
1:12
SPEAKER_10: Then you have a HR consultant.
1:18
SPEAKER_10: So not a great combo.
1:20
SPEAKER_10: So I took a I really kind of took some time out, got a coach myself, and just thought, well, I could do that.
1:27
SPEAKER_10: You know, it's it's brilliant supporting women that are struggling.
1:30
SPEAKER_10: That's a real sort of it gives me a lot of pleasure.
1:33
SPEAKER_10: So I'm also still involved with HR consulting because it's a passion.
1:37
SPEAKER_10: You know, good people practices affect you at your very core level.
1:42
SPEAKER_10: You know, if you're not enjoying your job, you go home and your whole family suffers as well as you.
1:46
SPEAKER_10: It's true.
1:47
SPEAKER_10: So it's really important for me that you know, sort of I'm I'm enjoying what I do, but I'm helping people as well.
1:52
SPEAKER_09: Oh, that's great.
1:53
SPEAKER_09: Gosh, that miss sorry, I've just come back to that misdiagnosis.
1:56
SPEAKER_09: I know.
1:56
SPEAKER_10: Happens to lot for you, doesn't it?
1:58
SPEAKER_11: Scary, that's the scary part.
1:59
SPEAKER_11: It's really scary, and it yeah, it is.
2:03
SPEAKER_10: But now I'm an HR consultant on HRT, so I am yeah, compass mentis most of the time.
2:10
SPEAKER_11: Well, we all have our days.
2:11
SPEAKER_10: Oh, absolutely, yeah.
2:12
SPEAKER_11: Gosh.
2:13
SPEAKER_11: Um, so what would you say the key issues that that women face today and um why do we need to have better awareness of them?
2:22
SPEAKER_10: Okay, so there's lots of different e uh issues, I think.
2:25
SPEAKER_10: For me, um, the pay gap analysis sort of is still really key.
2:29
SPEAKER_10: The fact that we are still not on the same money, like for like as men, drives me potty.
2:36
SPEAKER_11: That's just unbelievable in this.
2:37
SPEAKER_10: We've been hovering around 10% for about three or four years.
2:40
SPEAKER_10: We need to get that down.
2:41
SPEAKER_10: So that for me is a big deal.
2:43
SPEAKER_10: Um, all the family-friendly and women policies, there's lots of rights to requests and statutory obligations, but they're not particularly supportive.
2:52
SPEAKER_10: So, all those sorts of policies I think are a big deal because, again, you know, women are the predominant care caregivers generally, that could be children or elderly parents.
3:00
SPEAKER_10: Um, so supporting those women, not just within the business, but within the business to ensure that they're getting what they need in their family lives.
3:08
SPEAKER_10: Again, that has an impact on everybody, that's a big deal.
3:12
SPEAKER_10: Um, and zero-hour contract for me is another big thing because women are generally the victims of bad contracting, all these dodgy employers that put in on zero-hour contracts and never give them any work or messing them around.
3:26
SPEAKER_10: Whereas that men don't seem to experience that.
3:29
SPEAKER_10: So they're sort of the three key things for me that I think are really pivotal at the moment.
3:34
SPEAKER_09: And then when we talk about mental health as well, you get all these organisations and they say, Oh, it's on our internet, we have that policy, it's on our we have an EAP, we have all of those things.
3:44
SPEAKER_09: Women are still not feeling supported though.
3:47
SPEAKER_09: Is it this is it a not fit for purpose thing, or is it because policy just don't work?
3:52
SPEAKER_09: What's going on?
3:53
SPEAKER_10: I think it's because um people don't have to do it.
3:57
SPEAKER_10: Like progressive businesses will realise, and I mean all of these things, all these things I'm talking about, they have an impact on mental health because if you're not on the right contracts or having the same policies, or you know, you're under you know, you've got undervalued, these all have an impact on us.
4:11
SPEAKER_10: And I think that when you look at your handbooks, there's nothing you know, handbook somewhere can be a handbook um on a bit of you know, sort of one on desk that no one reads.
4:19
SPEAKER_10: They all of these policies, if they truly work, they do add to your profit margins and your productivity and your delivery, but it takes a progressive organization to realise treat your staff as individuals and they will make you money or they will do a delivery.
4:36
SPEAKER_10: So, in terms of the mental health sort of thing, I think because I'm a mental health first aider as well, and I think that just absolutely everything these days has a mental health impact.
4:46
SPEAKER_10: So it doesn't matter what policy you're talking about, someone can come to you and say, I'm I'm struggling this for this reason.
4:52
SPEAKER_10: So, in terms of doing it on the internet, it's it's ridiculous.
4:56
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, it needs to be culturally.
4:57
SPEAKER_10: All these sort of developments, all these things that we're doing to try to improve mental health and improve women's rights, they need to be really ingrained in the business, and that means doing it culturally, that means training your managers, they need to know what to do, they need to know how to talk to their staff if their staff come to them.
5:13
SPEAKER_10: Talk, you know, make sure all your staff know what's out there, what's available to you, where can you find it?
5:18
SPEAKER_10: Is it accessible?
5:20
SPEAKER_10: Oh, excuse me.
5:21
SPEAKER_10: Um, yeah, and just making sure that it's fit for purpose.
5:26
SPEAKER_10: Another thing I think, and this has been a big deal.
5:28
SPEAKER_10: I've noticed when I've been implementing policies, the impact this has had on the engagement of the staff, just consult your staff when you're doing policies and processes as well.
5:38
SPEAKER_10: If they feel that they're involved in something and they have a voice, yes, and that's I think that makes a really big difference.
5:44
SPEAKER_09: There's so what you're saying makes 100% perfect sense.
5:50
SPEAKER_11: Common sense, definitely.
5:51
SPEAKER_09: Theoretically, everyone goes, yes, in practice.
5:56
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, so I think it definitely you need someone to drive these things.
6:00
SPEAKER_10: Yes, you're right.
6:01
SPEAKER_10: For me as an HR person, because I'm passionate about these things, I'll always pitch it as if you introduce this policy, this is the impact it will have on your delivery and your productivity.
6:11
SPEAKER_10: But you have to be someone that's used to working with stats and can kind of give you those information.
6:15
SPEAKER_10: If your if your HR consultant is saying to you, if you deliver this flexible working policy, it's going to reduce your absenteeism by 35% on the in the first year.
6:24
SPEAKER_10: That will make a decision maker sit up and take notes.
6:27
SPEAKER_10: So I think that, and it's not just the HR, it should be the responsibility of the senior management team generally, but they need to understand that all of these sorts of practical implementations they have an impact on the business, and it's about showing them what the impact is and basically making them sign up to something because they can see the value in it.
6:47
SPEAKER_09: So actually, based on that, and I think it's so important, you're right.
6:50
SPEAKER_09: It's speaking the language of the decision maker, which I don't necessarily always agree with because it's us having to make that change to suit somebody else, but you're right if it gets things done.
7:00
SPEAKER_09: Um, so what would that impact be, whether it's in statistics or whether it's in behaviours that you've seen, of not supporting the caregiver, whoever the caregiver is, maybe it is the husband, maybe it is the wife, but it's the sandwich generation, they've got young children, they've got elderly parents.
7:15
SPEAKER_10: There's got to be some fallout if Oh yeah, and it's all trackable as well.
7:19
SPEAKER_10: This is interesting because now we work, um, most of us are in a situation where we're um feeding our stats into an online system, an EHR system we call it, or HR information system, and from that you can pull out all of these sort of facts and figures.
7:34
SPEAKER_10: So people are, if they're not feeling supported, or and it's a case of what people don't have people don't want to choose between their family and their job.
7:41
SPEAKER_10: No, no, no, they need the money, but they're living to, you know, they're working to live, and putting them in that position gives them huge amounts of anxiety, stress, they're doing two of those jobs potentially, and working full-time burnout is really prevalent, um, anxiety, stress, yeah, all that sort of stuff.
7:58
SPEAKER_10: And so that feeds into practical terms, absenteeism, lower productivity, um, and ultimately lower profit.
8:06
SPEAKER_10: So lower productivity is just, you know, if you've got someone that's working that feels supported in the business, they will give their all to you.
8:14
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
8:14
SPEAKER_10: But if they think they're not letting me live my life, then you know they're not going to be happy.
8:19
SPEAKER_10: That will have an impact on their mental health and ultimately have an impact on their productivity as well, which will be traceable.
8:26
SPEAKER_09: Oh my goodness.
8:27
SPEAKER_09: We are gonna well, we're keeping you, Amanda, and we are going to break down a lot of these topics in turn just after this.
8:33
SPEAKER_03: Navigating today's workplace is tough.
8:35
SPEAKER_06: Toxic employees, endless drama, lack of motivation.
8:39
SPEAKER_06: We've all been there.
8:40
SPEAKER_03: But fear not, we are here to help.
8:42
SPEAKER_03: My name is Leanne, and I'm a chartered psychologist.
8:45
SPEAKER_06: My name is Al, and I'm a business owner, and together we dig into the scientific and commercial secrets behind great workplace cultures and truth, lies, and work.
8:55
SPEAKER_03: A no-nonsense award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.
9:00
SPEAKER_03: We explore practical strategies for building a great workplace.
9:04
SPEAKER_06: We debunk buzzwords and bring you the very best advice around finding and keeping great people from personality tests.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: Personality tests are they're mostly bollocks.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what kind of language you do on your podcast, but I don't know if people know this, but the man who wrote the Wonder Woman comics is the person who invented the disc.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: When more flexible working became a norm, you no longer hurt your career prospects by being the one person who worked flexible.
9:28
SPEAKER_06: All the way to avoiding high turnover.
9:31
SPEAKER_05: We recruit and promote people to managerial roles based on their technical skills, not their people skills.
9:38
SPEAKER_05: This is a very fundamental problem we have, which we haven't directly tackled.
9:43
SPEAKER_08: From Toxic Free Coaches.
9:45
SPEAKER_08: Interventions for the individual are only half the answer.
9:48
SPEAKER_08: Systemic change is the other half.
9:50
SPEAKER_08: So sustainable growth.
9:51
SPEAKER_04: Thinking beyond just paying somebody a good salary, I think, is uh is super necessary now.
9:57
SPEAKER_04: We have to offer so much more than that.
9:59
SPEAKER_03: We have got you covered.
10:00
SPEAKER_06: So join us on Tuesdays and Thursdays where we help you to simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
10:20
SPEAKER_07: Let's talk about how the words you use, especially with yourself, shape your reality.
10:27
SPEAKER_07: Your brain does not handle negative phrases in every way.
10:31
SPEAKER_07: When you say I don't want to be angry, you will think that I can do it.
10:43
SPEAKER_07: I don't want to go to the way.
11:40
SPEAKER_09: Amanda very rightly picks up on the fact that I do see and have always positioned HR as protective of the organization.
11:48
SPEAKER_09: Whereas actually, as Amanda was saying in the break, HR sits in the middle.
11:53
SPEAKER_09: It's not about we just protect this side or we just protect workers' rights.
11:58
SPEAKER_09: It's it is it's a it's a balance and they hold that fine line.
12:01
SPEAKER_09: And I just think it's scary that my positioning at the age I'm at now, with the experience I've had, has still been but HR protects the organization.
12:10
SPEAKER_09: And just just before we go into um pregnancy, which is the first question we're going to be asking about, um, why do you think that that stereotype or maybe my positioning is maintained?
12:22
SPEAKER_10: I will be absolutely frank with you.
12:24
SPEAKER_10: I have been a fixed-term contractor and a consultant for most of my working life, for all of my working life.
12:29
SPEAKER_10: So I've gone in there and I have been expected to deliver at a high standard, and that means engaging with everybody.
12:35
SPEAKER_10: Right.
12:35
SPEAKER_10: Because you always need people to support you when you're trying to make changes.
12:38
SPEAKER_10: No one likes change.
12:39
SPEAKER_10: Yes.
12:39
SPEAKER_10: Whereas I think if you're a full-time HR worker, and this is this is not the case by any chance, I think large organisations they are more protect the organisation.
12:48
SPEAKER_10: Again, that is a reality.
12:50
SPEAKER_10: Smaller organisations and more pragmatic organisations, I think that we're all expected to sort of tow the party line and make sure we're supporting both.
12:57
SPEAKER_10: But both parties need to think that you're there for them, and it's quite a balancing act, to be honest, making sure that you're supporting the staff but also supporting the managers because they are not mutually exclusive, but in terms of permanent staff, it takes a certain sort of mindset, I think.
13:13
SPEAKER_10: So I don't I don't know how many most of the people I know in HR that work for smaller businesses have my type of mindset, which is great.
13:20
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, sorry, I know I interrupted it, just that was really sort of playing on my mind as to why I think that way, and I think that's that's been a really good explanation.
13:28
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, it's an interesting viewpoint, isn't it?
13:32
SPEAKER_11: Um, so yeah, Audrey mentioned pregnancy, so obviously that's a um something that many women face in the workplace.
13:39
SPEAKER_11: So, what are the basic rights that women have when they become pregnant and what do they need to be aware of?
13:46
SPEAKER_10: So the first thing is that they need to get their MAT B1 form.
13:50
SPEAKER_10: When they get that from their doctors, that kicks off all of their rights.
13:54
SPEAKER_10: If they don't give you that, then their rights aren't, you know, it's important they give you that document.
13:59
SPEAKER_10: So once you're doing it, then it's really and I believe this is a legal right actually for your business to give you a health and safety check.
14:06
SPEAKER_10: Because obviously, as you're getting more and more pregnant, that is going to have an impact on what you're doing.
14:12
SPEAKER_10: You're entitled to time off for appointments.
14:15
SPEAKER_10: Um, you're entitled basically not to be discriminated against because you are pregnant.
14:19
SPEAKER_10: Yes, being pregnant is a protected characteristic, which means if your whole organization is going through a restructure, you cannot be touched.
14:28
SPEAKER_10: However, if that does stop as soon as you get back at the moment, so as soon as you return to work, all of your protected characteristics end.
14:35
SPEAKER_10: But so yeah, so um the right to yeah, the right to be in a safe environment, use as good equipment, you know, be protected.
14:44
SPEAKER_10: I also think that there's quite a lot of organisations that have EAPs these days.
14:49
SPEAKER_10: It's not a right, it's not an obligation, but it's something I think that women going through pregnancy, you know, it's very hormonal.
14:55
SPEAKER_10: We all know as a menopausal woman, when we're hormonal, you know, sort of we all react differently.
15:01
SPEAKER_10: And I think it's about people um asking their company what suits them.
15:06
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, so there are certain obligations they have to take, you know, so they can't change your job, but you know, you they've got to give you time off, they've got to not discriminate against you, but you can still ask them, could I do this?
15:17
SPEAKER_10: Could I work from you can ask them for a bit of flexibility, and I think that benefits the business as well as the individual.
15:22
SPEAKER_11: So you've got the right to ask.
15:24
SPEAKER_11: Um, this is the problem with the rights.
15:26
SPEAKER_10: We all talk about right flexible working, but it's only a right to request.
15:30
SPEAKER_10: So, my perspective is give them the opportunity to say yes.
15:35
SPEAKER_10: Yes, ask for what you want and tell them why it's beneficial to the organisation.
15:40
SPEAKER_10: Okay, good advice.
15:41
SPEAKER_11: Um, and do organisations need to provide child scare child care schemes?
15:47
SPEAKER_11: Um, and what if there is one provided but the family chooses not not to use it, does it mean that they lose any work-related benefits?
15:55
SPEAKER_10: This was a really interesting question to read because I've never heard of anyone expecting childcare before.
16:01
SPEAKER_10: So ultimately, no.
16:03
SPEAKER_10: Companies do not have to pay any basically, people pay you to work in wherever environment and deliver for them.
16:10
SPEAKER_10: Everything else, there are certain benefits, but childcare is not one of them.
16:13
SPEAKER_10: Right, yeah.
16:14
SPEAKER_10: So it is becoming more popular.
16:16
SPEAKER_10: I mean, there we during the sort of early millennial, there was lots of these um childcare vouchers and they've stopped doing that now, which is a bit of a shame.
16:24
SPEAKER_10: So ultimately, if you've got a benefit of a childcare scheme, that is an additional benefit your company are offering.
16:30
SPEAKER_10: That's a really good benefit.
16:32
SPEAKER_10: It benefits them ultimately because it means you're in the office more, doesn't it?
16:36
SPEAKER_10: Like the Google thing of get them to eat, sleep, and play in the office and they never leave.
16:40
SPEAKER_10: So if they've got if you've got childcare, that I shouldn't say that, should I?
16:43
SPEAKER_10: No, no, no, it's fine.
16:45
SPEAKER_10: Um, when you've got a childcare sort of provider, um, it's a good thing to have, but it's not an obligation for a business.
16:52
SPEAKER_10: And if you this is if you have flexible, I don't know if you know much about flexible benefits.
16:58
SPEAKER_10: No, so they're very difficult to administer, so they're not that commonplace.
17:02
SPEAKER_10: But smaller businesses or sort of more progressive businesses see the value of them, it's where you kind of get a lump sum and you can choose what benefits you have.
17:10
SPEAKER_10: So as a single person, I'm not bothered about childcare, but oh well, quite fancy the gym every now and again, you know.
17:15
SPEAKER_10: That's a good idea.
17:16
SPEAKER_10: I think that when there's those sorts of elements of flexible working, then you'd probably get an allocation of money that you could put into your childcare.
17:23
SPEAKER_10: But you as if they offered a provision of a childcare, you would not you could ask them, but it's very unlikely they'd say yes, we'll pay for something else because they've you know sort of negotiated with that contractor.
17:34
SPEAKER_10: So if yeah, unfortunately, no, if they'd given you a childcare provision, I'd say you're already winning.
17:41
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
17:42
SPEAKER_10: So getting anything else probably is not realistic.
17:45
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
17:46
SPEAKER_09: I think that's quite important to recognise because I think sometimes we can feel a bit down on organisations, but actually sometimes they're really offering a lot of stuff, even if it's not to your liking, they didn't have to offer that bit.
17:57
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
17:57
SPEAKER_09: And and we need to recognise what is a right and what's a benefit.
18:02
SPEAKER_09: Uh and that's that's really helpful.
18:04
SPEAKER_09: Good point.
18:04
SPEAKER_09: So with um you've mentioned a little bit about how the rights stop after you've had the baby.
18:11
SPEAKER_09: What should a what should a healthy return to work look like after?
18:14
SPEAKER_10: So what do people actually have to do?
18:16
SPEAKER_10: Yes.
18:17
SPEAKER_10: Right.
18:17
SPEAKER_10: So they and this I'm I'm sort of saying this, but it's not something I've experienced.
18:23
SPEAKER_10: So if you have so maternity is split up into two sections, ordinary maternity leave and an enhanced maternity leave, additional maternity leave, if you return to your job after the ordinary maternity leave, you are entitled to return to your role under the exact same conditions.
18:41
SPEAKER_10: However, and this is not something I've experienced, but if you return after your AML, they have to keep the wage, location, and benefits, but they could technically change your job.
18:52
SPEAKER_10: Now that's not something I've ever experienced, but it is a possibility.
18:56
SPEAKER_10: So interest.
18:57
SPEAKER_10: Interesting that that's how the maternity works, not, but it's not like I say, fortunately, because you have to retain the everything else, it's not something that businesses necessarily do.
19:07
SPEAKER_10: So you need to have um I wouldn't say I don't think it's not statutory, but it's strongly recommended that you have um sort of had a conversation with your HR team about potentially a phased return to work.
19:21
SPEAKER_10: Because personally, from a mental health capacity, going from being off work fully to back into full time, it's too big a jump for most people.
19:30
SPEAKER_10: This is my experience as an HR consultant supporting women, it's just too big.
19:34
SPEAKER_10: So I would say always suggest that a phased return.
19:37
SPEAKER_10: That's a big deal for a practical reason.
19:40
SPEAKER_10: Um you get kit days, and this is something that I don't think is pushed enough.
19:46
SPEAKER_10: So a kit day is a keeping in touch day.
19:49
SPEAKER_10: When you're on maternity, you're entitled to 10 kit days.
19:53
SPEAKER_10: Most people use them as their sort of coming back.
19:55
SPEAKER_10: Now it could be you're going in for an office meeting, like a company meeting for two hours or an hour.
20:01
SPEAKER_10: That still counts as a day.
20:02
unknown: Okay.
20:03
SPEAKER_10: So it's over ten, or or you could go maybe going in for a half day to see how things are going as you're returning to work.
20:09
SPEAKER_10: Take those days to their pool their extra paydays.
20:12
SPEAKER_10: Okay.
20:13
SPEAKER_10: So it's important that you're taking your 10 kit days.
20:16
SPEAKER_09: That is that that I I've not heard of that.
20:19
SPEAKER_11: I s I sort of was vaguely aware that that's what happened, but I didn't know that they were paid extra.
20:24
SPEAKER_11: Yeah.
20:24
SPEAKER_11: And I didn't know that you got 10 of them.
20:26
SPEAKER_11: Yeah.
20:27
SPEAKER_10: Um I and it's it's not like you're expected to do 80 hours, you could do eight hours and still get the days.
20:33
SPEAKER_10: So it's a bit of a nice little touch as you're sort of returning to a little bit of a boost of cash.
20:38
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
20:38
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
20:38
SPEAKER_11: And also, if your company says no to phased return, you could use that as a way to do your own phased return, really.
20:44
SPEAKER_10: You could do if you wanted to.
20:46
SPEAKER_10: If they re if they refused your phased return, I'd kind of be slightly dubious about what their motivations were.
20:53
SPEAKER_10: Because most organisations that you know you do take someone from directly full-time again, like I say, lot lots of the time it's not necessarily practical, so there'll be sickness and something like that.
21:04
SPEAKER_10: So, um, what else?
21:06
SPEAKER_10: Let's have a look.
21:07
SPEAKER_10: Sorry, I just have to check my notes.
21:08
SPEAKER_10: Oh, the feeding room, yeah, something.
21:10
SPEAKER_10: So you have the right to have dignity when you're breastfeeding and somewhere to store your milk.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
21:16
SPEAKER_10: That's a legal requirement.
21:19
SPEAKER_09: Uh this is so important.
21:22
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
21:22
SPEAKER_10: Oh, yeah.
21:23
SPEAKER_10: When you're on maternity, also, um all of your benefits remain this remain the same.
21:29
SPEAKER_10: So what tends to happen is obviously you're accumulating your holiday days whilst you're on maternity.
21:34
SPEAKER_10: Most people add that on as a block at the end of their maternity.
21:38
SPEAKER_10: So, or you could decide maybe you want to factor that into your return to work.
21:42
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, phase return, you know.
21:44
SPEAKER_09: So that's brilliant.
21:47
SPEAKER_09: It's really great to have these insights.
21:48
SPEAKER_09: Some of this stuff which I didn't know about, and I worked very closely with HR, and and this is very new to me, which is really well, and if it's new to me, then must be new to quite a few people.
22:00
SPEAKER_09: Oh, I'm really pleased we're having this conversation and making more people aware of their rights.
22:03
SPEAKER_09: That's super important.
22:05
SPEAKER_09: It's exactly that.
22:06
SPEAKER_09: It is about being aware of their rights.
22:08
SPEAKER_09: We are keeping Amanda and we'll be back just after this.
22:26
SPEAKER_07: Today I want to remind you of something powerful.
22:30
SPEAKER_07: Whatever thought you have and entertain, it becomes your reality.
22:36
SPEAKER_07: The brain is always trying to make sense of the world.
22:39
SPEAKER_07: And once you believe something, even subconsciously, your mind starts looking for evidence to prove the truth.
22:47
SPEAKER_07: It's like wearing painted glasses.
22:49
SPEAKER_07: If you walk around thinking I'm not good enough, suddenly every neutral situation starts to feel like a confirmation.
22:56
SPEAKER_07: You miss one opportunity and take it as a truth that you're feeling.
23:45
SPEAKER_11: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters Office Hours where we're talking to Amanda Connolly, who's an HR professional, and we're talking about women's rights in the workplace.
23:53
SPEAKER_11: Really, really important discussion.
23:56
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, and you've raised some really important points which I I didn't know of, and I work in the area, which is quite scary because and and maybe I've never looked into it because it's never been something that's on my radar to look into.
24:10
SPEAKER_10: But that doesn't mean I shouldn't know about it and be aware.
24:12
SPEAKER_10: There is a lot of things within the HR arena, and there's lots of minutiae, and not everybody can be expected.
24:18
SPEAKER_10: I mean, I've got a bit of paper, I can't remember everything, but and usually we cut we're we're good at things that we have experienced, and you'd never experience things you'd never have to learn.
24:28
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
24:28
SPEAKER_09: Now, something we're all maybe experiencing or have talked a lot about is menopause.
24:36
SPEAKER_09: Um menopause is something that organizations I say they're getting better, they're getting aware of it.
24:41
SPEAKER_09: Um, what have you seen in the workplace that actually works?
24:46
SPEAKER_10: Uh it's the same as any other policy.
24:49
SPEAKER_10: If you have a policy, if you just put it on the internet or leave it in a book, it doesn't mean anything.
24:55
SPEAKER_10: Um, I have heard of managers having menopause training, and I've heard good and bad things.
25:02
SPEAKER_10: Okay.
25:02
SPEAKER_10: It depends on who's training them, I guess.
25:04
SPEAKER_10: Uh, and and how engaged they are in it.
25:06
SPEAKER_10: I mean, the ironic thing is that you know, you've got a male that's like, I don't do need to deal with menopause.
25:12
SPEAKER_10: Have you a wife, have you a daughter, have you a sister?
25:14
SPEAKER_10: It's gonna be relevant for you, you know.
25:16
SPEAKER_10: So um there aren't any at the moment, it's becoming a protected characteristic with the employment bill next year.
25:23
SPEAKER_10: Is it?
25:23
SPEAKER_10: Yes, yes.
25:26
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, at the moment it's not a protected characteristic, but women are going through tribunals because of how they're being treated, in um, and that's through the Equality Act, disability, and um health and safety.
25:40
SPEAKER_10: But in terms of companies really uh implementing them, I think it depends on the the motivation of the senior leadership team with anything else.
25:50
SPEAKER_10: Of course.
25:50
SPEAKER_10: So if you want to embed an or you know, you have to do the whole management training, staff awareness, making it accessible, but more than anything else, is getting people's viewpoints on it, you know.
26:02
SPEAKER_10: We've we are menopause women, we have a lot of opinions, and we are not ashamed to say them.
26:08
SPEAKER_10: So ask your staff, you know, what would you like in this, you know?
26:12
SPEAKER_10: Um, and it's just about making sure that it's mainly about flexibility, you know, sort of working from home, coming at different times, and you're avoiding rush hour, having fans, you know, sort of giving yourself a little bit of a breathing space when you're having a wobble, so that it's all kind of tied up to flexibility, really, on a practical basis.
26:31
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, so yeah, sometimes it works, but and I have to be honest, I've not heard of any organisation doing it more than a sort of a year ago.
26:40
SPEAKER_10: So it's a really new thing and it's not yet embedded, I don't think.
26:43
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, so I've not been to an organization where I've been able to say, What's your menopause policy?
26:48
SPEAKER_10: Oh, it's this, you know.
26:49
SPEAKER_10: And everyone's so happy and we're the menopause policy.
26:52
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, ironically, I did work for a business that this was when I was misdiagnosed.
26:57
SPEAKER_10: Um, I had introduced the menopause policy and then got fired.
27:01
SPEAKER_10: But it I I they didn't know I was menopausal, which was ironic because I thought I was depressed because of my doctor.
27:07
SPEAKER_10: So, you know, you can have these policies, but that that sort of showed me that people are people still have got these policies, but they don't really know how to implement them.
27:17
SPEAKER_10: We're still not talking to people as individuals, you know.
27:20
SPEAKER_10: But once we get there, where we're having these conversations of what works for you will ultimately affect, you know, benefit the business if you're happy and you're productive, and that menopause is just another one of those things.
27:31
SPEAKER_10: Menopause is a temporary glitch, yeah.
27:33
SPEAKER_10: It goes on and it could be just a couple of years, ten years, whatever, but you will get over it.
27:38
SPEAKER_10: So if you've got I mean, not like me, that you know, job hops all over the show.
27:42
SPEAKER_10: If you know lots of women have been in a business for a long time and they've developed huge amounts of internal knowledge, they are absolutely pivotal to the business.
27:51
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, if you and yeah, they might be having a wobble for a few years, but if you support them, yeah, they all come back super more enthused about that, more supportive, and more productive.
28:01
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, and more committee.
28:03
SPEAKER_10: Absolutely more committed, yeah, yeah.
28:05
SPEAKER_10: So I guess at the moment, I'm looking forward to when it's becoming a protected characteristic, we can really see what's happening.
28:10
SPEAKER_10: And one of the things that um they want to do in the employment bill is um, you know, sort of menopause um policies, who is doing them?
28:18
SPEAKER_10: If you are a business of over 25 uh 250 people, you have to have a menopause policy.
28:23
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, but you don't that will be staggered, like smaller business will come, so it's a good idea if these small businesses get ahead of the things, because it's if you have a woman uh you will experience a menopausal issue at some point, no doubt.
28:36
SPEAKER_10: So let's get those policies in, let's get it embedded in the culture and see how things go.
28:40
SPEAKER_11: I mean it should be.
28:41
SPEAKER_11: Do you mind if I just interject because the the the um where I used to work, I used to work in local government and for two parish councils actually, where generally the only employee is a middle-aged woman.
28:55
SPEAKER_11: So it makes me really worried that it's for 250 people plus, yeah.
29:00
SPEAKER_11: Even initially, because when's it going to filter down for that organiser?
29:04
SPEAKER_11: And it's so important in that field because that's how people are mainly men, mainly.
29:10
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, and if you've got if you've got those issues with a middle-aged woman that might be going through the menopause, and these people don't have a policy, so therefore have no knowledge, it just uh it just makes sense.
29:21
SPEAKER_11: Yes, it's a I'm glad it started.
29:23
SPEAKER_11: I'm glad it started, yes, but it shouldn't be there shouldn't be a distinction between one employee and two.
29:30
SPEAKER_10: They do that with all the policies.
29:31
SPEAKER_10: I know, but this is a good thing.
29:32
SPEAKER_10: And I think when it's when it's a woman that's on her own in the organisation, there is a business requirement for them to address it.
29:38
SPEAKER_10: And this is why I want women to know what their rights are, and then can bring it up.
29:43
SPEAKER_10: But you know, so if you're a woman that's on your own, then you might have you might need some reasonable adjustments.
29:48
SPEAKER_11: There's other there's other issues about being a lone employee and a female one, definitely, but men and poor's policy should be right at the centre of all of that, it's really important, especially yeah, when you're talking about the demographic of those jobs, it makes perfect sense, yes, and they're a council as well, yeah.
30:07
SPEAKER_10: Exactly, closely related to government, exactly, yeah, they're the worst ones because they're majority men, you know, they're just like doesn't affect me, but it does, and it will, it will, yeah.
30:20
SPEAKER_10: And this is why I quite like the whole implementation of like um the EHR systems because you can show up a male work boss the impact that it has through data, yeah, yes, yes, you can't argue with that.
30:32
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, I love that.
30:33
SPEAKER_09: Um, so related to sort of really understanding what our rights are, what different rights do we need to be aware of at different stages in our lives?
30:42
SPEAKER_10: Oh, well, I think that you've got all of the maternity things.
30:46
SPEAKER_10: Yes.
30:46
SPEAKER_10: Uh, you have when you all the pregnancy policies and childcare policies, and then you've got the menopause policy, and you know, so basically, throughout the whole of a woman's working life, there is a specific policy that's going to be suiting her at that point of time.
31:01
SPEAKER_10: Um, ultimately, I'd say it doesn't matter what business you work in, whenever you're going through a situation, then go and speak to your HR team and explain what you need, and you know, sort of, and I I should stress here, it is not an organisation's responsibility to ensure that you legally morally, yes.
31:24
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, legally, it is not their responsibility to make sure you're okay, sort of outside of the working world of the working job.
31:32
SPEAKER_10: But I think that it's a people realise that actually by speaking to the decision makers and coming up with policies or sort of actions that work the work for the person and the organisation, then you are embedding that person more.
31:47
SPEAKER_10: You're like it's the same thing we talked about more productivity, more engagement, more loyalty.
31:53
SPEAKER_10: You know, they're a better employee basically, if you just talk to them as an individual.
31:57
SPEAKER_10: So, yeah, it goes all the way through the life cycle, isn't it?
32:00
SPEAKER_10: We're always up to something.
32:01
SPEAKER_10: Oh, and menopause policies, that was something that I did sort of like for the first time about three years ago.
32:07
SPEAKER_10: But um, not menopause, um uh menstruation policies.
32:10
SPEAKER_10: You see, that's a new one as well, menstruation policies.
32:13
SPEAKER_10: Not a legal requirement, but sensible because me, I've got away with oh, periods of two days for most of my adult life.
32:20
SPEAKER_10: Now I've hit menopause, it's all over the joint.
32:22
SPEAKER_10: But back when I was working, I was just two light days, that was it.
32:26
SPEAKER_10: But I so I and then I'd have friends, it took them out completely.
32:30
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:31
SPEAKER_10: I went through a phase of absolutely shocking, and again, it's that approach of what does somebody need?
32:36
SPEAKER_10: You know, because there is no right to ask for time off, but it's sickness, so you can log it down.
32:42
SPEAKER_10: And people aren't gonna get funny, I wouldn't have thought, if you're taking uh you can again with these systems, you say, okay, so every sort of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, once a month she's taking time.
32:54
SPEAKER_10: What does that mean?
32:55
SPEAKER_10: What does that suggest?
32:57
SPEAKER_11: But and you would hope that the organisation would have some sort of sympathy for that, sensitivity around it, yeah.
33:04
SPEAKER_11: But if there's no policy, then that there's nowhere to start.
33:09
SPEAKER_11: No, they don't have to safety that would be, I guess.
33:13
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, and so after a career break, um what um when women go back, what are their responsibilities and what do what's the expectations from the workplace?
33:25
SPEAKER_11: It's really interesting, isn't it?
33:27
SPEAKER_10: At the moment, I'm I'm reading a lot, I must be my age.
33:29
SPEAKER_10: I'm reading a lot at the moment about um how middle-aged women are really struggling to re-enter the workforce after a break or whatever, and I think I'm not alone.
33:38
SPEAKER_10: I think when I hit the menopause, I'm sort of like, let's just take a step and just think about what I really want.
33:43
SPEAKER_10: Then there's lots of women that do that.
33:45
SPEAKER_10: And apparently, I'm not sure I believe this, and I guess it depends on where you're reading your data from or your literature.
33:52
SPEAKER_10: Um, apparently, um, women have women of a certain age have higher um salary expectations, we're not as um au faith with technology, and let's be honest, we're probably not as easy to manage as a malleable 20-year-old.
34:06
SPEAKER_10: So I think that there is this.
34:08
SPEAKER_10: I think across the whole of the UK at the moment, there's you know, sort of they're stripping back on their workforces, and that but what is really important, I think, for most businesses is innovation.
34:19
SPEAKER_10: Most businesses I've worked with, innovation is a is a key point, and you don't get innovation if you've got a bunch of people that all look the same, went to Oxford white, you know, men.
34:30
SPEAKER_10: The more diversity you have, the more innovative a workforce is, and I think that's becoming uh there's a lot more information to prove that that's the case these days.
34:38
SPEAKER_10: So, in terms of what your rights are, again, nothing really until next year when it's protected characteristic, and then they have to have their, you know, they have to behave in a way that that's not detrimental to you.
34:51
SPEAKER_11: What people coming back after a career break.
34:53
SPEAKER_10: Oh, yeah, sorry.
34:55
SPEAKER_11: No, sorry, what would you say was a pr protective characteristic?
34:58
SPEAKER_10: The menopause.
34:59
SPEAKER_10: Oh, so when you're coming because I I took a break when I was diagnosed.
35:04
SPEAKER_10: For me, I guess that uh I'm a I'm making the assumption that women are taking breaks in at the around the past.
35:09
SPEAKER_10: They are, I think.
35:10
SPEAKER_10: They are.
35:11
SPEAKER_11: I think a lot definitely a lot.
35:12
SPEAKER_11: Oh, yes.
35:13
SPEAKER_11: Yeah.
35:13
SPEAKER_10: But I think generally that there's a struggle coming back because of how people are perceiving that, you know, demographic.
35:21
SPEAKER_09: Yes, yeah.
35:22
SPEAKER_10: So it's it's a tricky situation.
35:23
SPEAKER_10: It's only when you start sort of working in a business that people can see the value that you're bringing because you're sort of going up against somebody that's half the half the rate of you, you know, gets told what to do and happy to do that.
35:34
SPEAKER_10: But I think we're we're just a bit more challenging.
35:36
SPEAKER_10: But I think that's a good thing for company.
35:38
SPEAKER_10: Challenging is a good thing.
35:40
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
35:40
SPEAKER_09: And just on your point about, I guess, when menopause becomes a protector characteristic and it is written in policy, then actually, I guess we have some kind of conversation we can open by saying, Well, I only took the career break because I was struggling with menopause.
35:55
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, definitely.
35:56
SPEAKER_09: And that will give us a little bit of a definitely a way back in, I guess.
36:00
SPEAKER_11: Well, it should, because the assumption being you're coming back because you're feeling fine.
36:03
SPEAKER_09: Being better now, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:05
SPEAKER_11: And stronger, and you have all the skills that you had before to bring it's only going to benefit an organisation, isn't it?
36:12
SPEAKER_10: Your rights aren't technically changing, and they're the same as if you were, you know, sort of 30.
36:16
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
36:16
SPEAKER_10: Yes.
36:17
SPEAKER_10: But the perception, I think, is what's the challenge at the moment.
36:20
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
36:22
SPEAKER_10: Gosh.
36:22
SPEAKER_11: It's been really interesting.
36:24
SPEAKER_11: Thank you so much.
36:25
SPEAKER_11: Um, where can we learn more about you?
36:27
SPEAKER_11: And where can people go if they want to learn more about um you know HR advice?
36:32
SPEAKER_10: Okay, well, um I have a website called pauseandempower.com.
36:37
SPEAKER_10: Um, and I'm a career coach, and there's a lot of my my perfect client would be a menopausal woman, the senior, you know, sort of that if you're a manager, there's good stuff there.
36:46
SPEAKER_10: Um, I put quite a lot of information on around people's rights and sort of you know practical stuff.
36:51
SPEAKER_10: Then you have places like ACAS, the CIPD.
36:54
SPEAKER_10: ACAS is particularly good for readable information, it's very accessible, um, and you you'll sort of get quite a lot of different sort of solicitors.
37:04
SPEAKER_10: If you're if you're in HR, attach yourself as solicitor because they will always update you as well.
37:09
SPEAKER_10: But yeah, just I'd say that definitely CIPD and ACAS for the majority of people is useful.
37:14
SPEAKER_09: Amazing.
37:15
SPEAKER_09: Well, we um yeah, absolutely, we are keeping Amanda and we're keeping her for business boost.
37:26
SPEAKER_10: So when a business is looking to do a policy update, it's really important that they know what the legal ramifications are.
37:34
SPEAKER_10: It's important that they have engaged with their staff and it's important their managers can deliver.
37:46
SPEAKER_07: Let's talk about the power of saying no.
37:49
SPEAKER_07: Many of us feel guilty when we say no, like we're letting someone down.
37:53
SPEAKER_07: But here's a small mindset shift that can make all the difference.
37:57
SPEAKER_07: Instead of focusing on what you're saying no to, think about what you're saying yes to instead.
38:03
SPEAKER_07: When you say no to something that doesn't align with your time, energy, or values, you're actually saying a big yes to your priorities, your peace of mind, and your well-being.
38:14
SPEAKER_07: Suddenly, saying no feels less like a rejection and more like a self-respect.
38:20
SPEAKER_07: And here's a tip: if you often feel pressured to answer right away, give yourself a little space.
38:26
SPEAKER_07: Try something like that sounds interesting.
38:29
SPEAKER_07: Thank you for thinking of me.
38:31
SPEAKER_07: Let me have a think and I'll get back to you.
38:33
SPEAKER_07: That simple part leaves you time to ask yourself, do I really want this?
38:39
SPEAKER_07: Or am I just avoiding disappointing someone?
38:42
SPEAKER_07: Remember, every no is really a yes to something more meaningful.
38:47
SPEAKER_07: So go ahead and give yourself permission to say yes to you.
38:56
SPEAKER_09: Well, we've reached the last part of our show.
38:59
SPEAKER_09: As always, a fascinating discussion, really eye-opening.
39:03
SPEAKER_09: No, thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge, and it's it's so nice actually, in a way, it's comforting to know that there are rights that we need to assert and that they are protected and that they are in organizations, even if the organization hasn't looked at that policy for a while.
39:25
SPEAKER_09: And I think that's a good reminder to just say, you know, if you are, like you said, experiencing anything, there's something to support you.
39:32
SPEAKER_09: So go and go and have a look.
39:34
SPEAKER_09: That's a that's a big deal for me, actually.
39:36
SPEAKER_09: That's really nice because you don't always get told that when you're onboarding, you know.
39:40
SPEAKER_11: No, you don't, and just being aware that you have rights and where to go to look for them, and you know, asking managers about them.
39:48
SPEAKER_11: And if your managers don't know, then they need to make themselves aware of it.
39:52
SPEAKER_09: Um and actually, just you mentioning that, um, what is the next step?
39:58
SPEAKER_09: If you have got a right, it's not being supported, where do you go next?
40:03
SPEAKER_10: Oh, okay.
40:04
SPEAKER_10: So I think if you've checked through ACAT or something like that and you know that it's alright, um, and you have a HRT, you've had that conversation, and they're still not supporting you, ACAS would be their first.
40:16
SPEAKER_10: Really?
40:17
SPEAKER_10: Right.
40:17
SPEAKER_10: Because if your own HR team don't know what they're doing, then there's absolutely no point in asking anybody else because they're supposed to be the experts.
40:25
SPEAKER_10: So then get external advice and it is a free service, it's very accessible, and they do come down hard on employers.
40:33
SPEAKER_10: They do.
40:34
SPEAKER_11: Can I just ask a question?
40:35
SPEAKER_11: What if your organisation doesn't have an HR department?
40:39
SPEAKER_10: Then there probably would be someone that's um earmarked to do certain things, so your office manager might might do HR, things like that.
40:46
SPEAKER_10: So there will be somebody that is responsible.
40:48
SPEAKER_10: If there isn't anybody, then potentially go to your if it's a really small business, there's probably only a few people, talk to your boss, talk to your CEO, your MD.
40:58
SPEAKER_10: If you don't get anywhere there, then move over to the ACAS situation.
41:03
SPEAKER_10: Okay.
41:03
SPEAKER_10: But yeah, I would always say talk to the business first and see if you can resolve it because that's a hell of a lot less stressful for everyone.
41:11
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, and resolve things.
41:13
SPEAKER_10: But if then if they don't know and they're being, you know, sort of not very nice about it, then an external company or organization like ACAS makes them make sure they're doing things legally.
41:23
SPEAKER_09: Okay, brilliant.
41:24
SPEAKER_09: So, Amanda, just to close off the show, could you give us some top tips for women who are asking their organization questions in terms of getting support?
41:32
SPEAKER_09: You know, sort of good questions to ask.
41:34
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah.
41:35
SPEAKER_10: So I'd say that flexible working arrangements is the big thing for women, you know, sort of, and you are not it, you're not like guaranteed the right to do it, you just require it's the right to request, which is very vague.
41:47
SPEAKER_10: Um, so it's about you knowing your value to the business.
41:51
SPEAKER_10: Don't do anything formally, try and have informal conversations, go to the decision makers, but think about whatever you're asking for, why is it good for you?
42:01
SPEAKER_10: But why does it why would it benefit the business?
42:04
SPEAKER_10: You know, say, for example, you want to go um into three days a week, then you're talking to someone, then potentially they could get a job share, so now you've got another person, yeah, and then they're covering sickness, and you know that you're you're increasing your abilities and your diversity, whatever it is.
42:20
SPEAKER_10: So I think it's about asking your bosses with the aim of getting what you want, so showing them how what you want would be beneficial for the business, and I think that's culturally something very different for employees to think about.
42:34
SPEAKER_10: I mean, I think ultimately you have to think, I'm not really entitled to much.
42:38
SPEAKER_10: How do I get what I want?
42:39
SPEAKER_10: Yes, and that's about you positioning yourself in that way, and relate it to that.
42:44
SPEAKER_09: It's about not just going solve my problem.
42:46
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, to top it.
42:48
SPEAKER_10: That won't land never dick.
42:49
SPEAKER_10: No, it never does, it never does.
42:51
SPEAKER_10: It's almost having like a mini business plan to go to your bosses with, isn't it?
42:55
SPEAKER_10: Just a couple of nice key touches, you know, sort of with flexible working, or you know, I'm engaged more, or whatever it is, or it's a you know, if I drop down to four days a week, but still do the same amount, and you're saving a whole day on wages, yeah, you know.
43:07
SPEAKER_10: So I think I think we in today's society we have to be thinking like that.
43:11
SPEAKER_10: How do we get what we want by asking the questions?
43:14
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, but try and keep it informal because that's the easiest way of doing it, just have conversations, and then if that doesn't work, because you only get two flexible working requests per year.
43:24
SPEAKER_10: Oh, it's it is limited, right?
43:27
SPEAKER_10: So say so for example that you you might have to do flexible working if you come back from maternity, then you've only got one year.
43:34
SPEAKER_10: So you have to be so doing it informally is probably always the best bet.
43:37
SPEAKER_09: Okay, yeah, I see what you're saying.
43:39
SPEAKER_09: Oh Amanda, it's just been brilliant chatting with you.
43:42
SPEAKER_09: Thank you so much for your time.
43:43
SPEAKER_09: Do join us again.
43:44
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, I'd love to.
43:46
SPEAKER_09: Fascinating topic.
43:47
SPEAKER_09: And uh, from all of us at Mental Health Matters office hours, have a healthy week.