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Peter Elliott on Navigating Ministry and Creativity in a Changing Church · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Martha welcomes Peter Elliott to the show. Peter
0:49
Elliott is a priest of the Anglican Church of Canada,
0:51
hailing from the Niagara region of Southern Ontario.
0:54
His ministry has included leadership within the Anglican
0:57
Communion for the full inclusion of LGBTQ people,
1:00
and strong advocacy for a spirituality that promotes
1:03
social and environmental justice.
1:05
Over his 40 plus years in ordained ministry,
1:08
Peter has served in senior positions internationally and
1:11
nationally within the Anglican Church. A
1:13
longtime resident of Vancouver, British Columbia, Peter
1:16
was dean of Christ Church Cathedral and currently is a coach
1:19
and consultant in private practice. He is
1:22
a featured writer on arts and culture in the Anglican
1:25
Journal, the national newspaper of the Anglican Church of
1:28
Canada, and enjoys working with the dean of Portland,
1:31
Oregon, the Very Reverend Nathan LaRude, as co
1:33
host of the podcast the Gospel and Musical
1:36
Theatre. Peter's husband, Thomas Roach, is
1:39
an artist working primarily in textiles. Please take
1:41
a moment to rate and review this episode on whatever podcast
1:44
platform you're listening on, and if you find it helpful,
1:47
please share it with a ministry friend. Our mission is to
1:50
help you and your church walk with faith boldly into the
1:53
future.
2:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am,
2:05
um, the co host of Future Christian, Martha
2:07
Tatarnick. Today I'm having a
2:10
conversation with Peter Elliott, a
2:13
longtime colleague and a mentor to
2:16
many of us, including me in the
2:19
Anglican Church of Canada. Welcome to the
2:21
podcast, Peter. It's so great to have an opportunity to talk.
2:24
>> Peter Elliott: Hey, Martha, thanks for the invitation. Happy to hop
2:27
aboard.
2:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Now, we know each other from way back
2:32
and, uh, all kinds of, you know, various
2:35
family connections across the Anglican Church
2:38
and so on and so forth. But many of our
2:41
listeners certainly, um, don't know
2:44
you. So we're gonna start with some opening
2:46
questions and give, uh,
2:49
our listeners an opportunity to get to know
2:51
you a little bit. So, Peter, what was
2:54
the faith context in which you.
2:56
>> Peter Elliott: Ooh, well, you're in St. Catharines, Ontario. I grew up in St.
2:59
Cathari, Catherine's, Ontario. Born in
3:01
1954
3:04
and into a family very
3:06
connected in the Life of the church. Guess the
3:09
deep values of our family were
3:13
spirituality, um,
3:16
music, uh, um,
3:19
education and family.
3:22
You know. So, uh. My mom and dad were both
3:24
very, very involved. Um, Grace Church, St.
3:27
Catherine's it was
3:30
the. I was born in 54, so you know,
3:33
I'm a. I'm a baby boomer and that
3:36
Partisan Catharines, which now looks old,
3:39
uh, down around Geneva street and so forth.
3:42
Um, was new suburbs
3:44
and Grace Church was a new church.
3:47
And they were both very involved. My dad had been involved in
3:50
the Anglican Young People's association, the
3:52
aypa Famous,
3:55
famous um organization in its time,
3:58
um, as Dominion president. And so,
4:01
um, he went, for
4:04
example, as a youth delegate to the First World Council of
4:07
Churches in Amsterdam in
4:09
1948. Heard Carl
4:11
Bart and he.
4:14
I think from that experience and from his sort of
4:16
national, international experience as a lay leader.
4:19
He was a financial executive.
4:23
Got a very, A broad vision of the
4:25
church, uh, very progressive
4:28
vision, rooted uh, in
4:31
spirituality. And so he brought that home
4:34
with him. My mom's origins, although
4:37
they met in the Anglican Church, their mothers knew each other when
4:40
they were pregnant with each other. Um,
4:43
uh, had veered into evangelical Christianity. And so she was
4:45
very at home in uh. More
4:48
the Plymouth Brethren tradition. Although she was a
4:52
good ah, Anglican through to her dying day.
4:55
Um, and those influences came uh,
4:58
in. So our family spent a lot of time in church.
5:01
I was a boy soprano, um, and
5:04
so sang in choirs. Studied with
5:07
Eric Dowling, who was the uh,
5:10
organist and choir master at your parish and George's and
5:13
Catherine's for many years. He was my.
5:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, we shared a few, um, organists and
5:18
choir askers who moved around our
5:21
church.
5:21
>> Peter Elliott: Um, so singing
5:25
church, um, involvement. Um, that was all
5:28
very important. And in high
5:30
school I got involved with the
5:33
evangelical movement, the
5:35
Jesus people, uh, I'm that
5:38
old, um, the Charismatic Renewal
5:40
Movement, um,
5:43
and was a bit of a Jesus freak in
5:46
high school.
5:47
Um.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: I did not know that about you people.
5:51
>> Peter Elliott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so those
5:53
influences were also very important.
5:56
Um, and then I got to university. I
5:58
was really seeking to get away from God.
6:02
Um, and I found the more that I read,
6:05
the more that I wrote. I was thinking theologically,
6:08
I mean, language I'd put around it now.
6:11
Um, and so went to seminary. But that's. Early
6:14
influences were St Catherine's Anglican
6:16
Church, International
6:19
Progressive Christianity and the Evangelical
6:22
Charismatic Renewal Movement.
6:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, those are some really great pillars,
6:28
um, of influence and context. And you've
6:31
teed up my next opening question, which is why
6:34
don't you tell us a Bit about your calling. Well,
6:37
found yourself going to seminary after trying to get away
6:40
from God.
6:41
>> Peter Elliott: So my mother, were she here,
6:44
may she rest in peace, bless her heart, would
6:47
probably pull out embarrassing photos
6:49
of me playing church as
6:52
a kid. My
6:55
grandfather, her dad built me
6:58
a pulpit when I was 8 years
7:01
old. It's
7:04
still in our house.
7:05
Um, and so
7:09
from uh, early, early uh
7:11
years I had wondered about whether
7:14
or not God was calling me into
7:17
the life of the church as a priest and that sort of
7:20
thing.
7:22
Um, late high
7:25
school my best friend
7:28
was killed in a plane crash. Suddenly he,
7:30
he's involved with Niagara Flying Club
7:34
co, ah, piloted small planes. The plane was
7:37
lost, found, um, no
7:39
survivors. And so
7:42
all of a sudden some of the
7:45
certainty that I had relied
7:48
on in my faith mainly through the
7:51
evangelical world and some of the charismatic
7:53
renewal God was, was somewhat absent.
7:56
And that's um, why
7:59
I chose to go to a secular
8:01
university. And I thought I'd be an English
8:04
teacher or something like that. That was the aspiration
8:07
I had. Okay, but ah,
8:10
then writing and reading, um,
8:13
I studied English literature and philosophy
8:16
and that was what really, what really attracted me were
8:19
theological themes and God's great
8:22
trick on me. I went to Trent University in Peterborough,
8:24
Ontario, um, thinking it was a really secular
8:27
university, not knowing that most of
8:30
the faculty had been recruited from Trinity College in
8:33
Toronto, um, and were
8:36
more Anglican than Anglicans. And so everywhere I turned around
8:39
I was bumping into
8:42
Anglicans. So I thought
8:44
I'd go to seminary. The bishop at the time
8:47
was encouraging some of us to go to
8:50
um, to study in the U.S.
8:53
um, and so I went to
8:56
Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge Massachusetts
8:59
and that was an eye opening experience. Went
9:02
thinking I'd study theology but I really
9:05
wasn't sure about ordination.
9:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like maybe get it, get it out of my system.
9:10
>> Peter Elliott: It looked like it was sort of around well
9:13
boom. From Ontario into
9:16
Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1976. The
9:19
first UM
9:22
notice I saw on the bulletin board
9:25
was uh, a report from the
9:28
General Convention which was in Minneapolis in
9:31
1976. And the notice simply said ordination
9:34
of women approved.
9:37
And already at EDS there were two
9:40
of the women who were ordained in
9:42
Philadelphia, Carter Hayward and Sue Hyatt,
9:45
who were on faculty and were regularly presiding in
9:48
chapel. Irregularly ordained
9:51
was. So I
9:53
discovered the feminist movement,
9:57
um, discovered what one of my friends
9:59
referred to as a venerable lesbian, uh and gay
10:02
community at the school,
10:05
progressive theology,
10:07
um, and did a couple of years at
10:10
a parish. I worked at Christchurch, Harvard Square,
10:13
um, uh, and found out I really
10:16
kind of loved parish ministry. So
10:19
with A friend. One night over a glass
10:22
of bourbon, we were
10:25
sitting reflecting on our lives and I said,
10:29
I think I'm in for this ordination thing. I
10:32
mean, maybe it was no road to
10:35
Damascus for me. It was no sudden thing. It
10:38
was kind of an evolving consciousness. Uh, a
10:41
call, I guess.
10:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Sounds like God had some
10:46
chess pieces moving against you
10:49
to sort of get you into
10:52
that uh, checkmate situation
10:55
in the best possible way. Yeah,
10:58
that's lovely. So,
11:01
uh, what's uh,
11:04
some change that you have clocked in the
11:07
Christian context from growing up
11:09
to now? I mean, I'm guessing there's a lot.
11:12
So maybe pick one.
11:14
>> Peter Elliott: Yeah. So moving from Cambridge,
11:17
Massachusetts to Hamilton, Ontario
11:20
was an enormous culture shock.
11:22
And I remember I was secured at the cathedral,
11:25
the Anglican Cathedral in Hamilton. And
11:28
one of the things I was asked to do was to help
11:30
coordinate a service for the
11:33
girls auxiliary, which used to be
11:36
this kind of. It was like Brownies or
11:39
guides, but it was an Anglican order for young
11:42
girls. We were meeting, um, they all wore
11:45
uniforms and that sort of stuff. And
11:48
we were meeting to plan the uh, uh, the
11:51
service and they said,
11:53
um, so we would like
11:56
to sing the hymn Sons of God
11:59
now. I came back from EDS
12:03
commit, deeply committed to inclusive language.
12:05
Like that was it. And the
12:08
idea that you
12:11
would have a church full of young girls all
12:14
singing Sons of God was just
12:17
cognitive dissonance. Like, are you people
12:19
listening to yourself?
12:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah.
12:23
>> Peter Elliott: But in some ways I think my time at seminary gave
12:26
me a sneak preview of what the future was going to be
12:29
like. And then came into the Anglican Church of
12:32
Canada where already women were
12:34
ordained, but the uh, patriarchy and misogyny
12:37
was still present, as it still
12:40
is. Uh, by the way.
12:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
12:43
>> Peter Elliott: Um, I came to. Back
12:46
to the Canadian church just as the book
12:49
of alternative services was being
12:52
new liturgies. And there's a huge
12:55
backlash to that.
12:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: New liturgies.
12:57
>> Peter Elliott: Um, so I came into
13:00
a changing church. I came in 1980 when I was
13:03
ordained, the church was already in
13:05
decline. The
13:08
decline was subtle for sure. Um, but it
13:11
was there. And um,
13:13
over, you know, I mean, Good Lord,
13:17
um, 44 years now,
13:19
ordained. I've seen the
13:22
decline of accelerate, um,
13:25
become precipitous. Um,
13:28
and
13:33
when there are articles, as there sometimes are
13:36
recently was that says the decline
13:38
was caused by progressive values
13:42
finding their way into the church.
13:45
I want to call on that. I
13:48
don't think it's anything to do with
13:50
progressive values. I think the
13:53
causes are deeper. So living through the
13:56
decline, resisting it, trying to,
13:59
um, trying to find
14:01
ways to get out of it. I
14:04
mean that's kind of.
14:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yep,
14:09
yep. Those are, those are definitely some
14:12
overarching themes.
14:15
Um, and I think that you're
14:17
absolutely right. I take issue when
14:20
um, when people like to point
14:23
to a single thing and say, haha,
14:26
that was what if.
14:27
>> Peter Elliott: You hadn't ordained women, if you hadn't changed the King James version,
14:30
if you hadn't brought GLT,
14:32
LGBTQ2s plus
14:34
queer folks in, you know, I mean.
14:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, no,
14:40
yeah, yeah, totally.
14:43
Okay. What is a spiritual practice
14:46
that you are finding meaningful now?
14:48
>> Peter Elliott: I'm not a contemplative. I'm kind of bad
14:51
on all that sitting, uh, and thinking
14:54
about God stuff
14:58
and I feel badly about that. But you know, I don't think you
15:01
can, you can't by force of will become a
15:04
contemplative. In my humble, uh, point of
15:07
view.
15:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: I feel like God has room for us
15:11
non contemplatives.
15:12
>> Peter Elliott: That's such a relief, Martha. Thank you.
15:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: You know, yeah, I, I feel like God loves
15:17
us too.
15:18
>> Peter Elliott: You know, I've, I'm banking on it.
15:21
Me too, me too. Um,
15:24
my theologically, my view has
15:27
become very uh, earth centered
15:30
and so
15:31
um, I mean I, I agree.
15:34
When Richard Rohr says that the first
15:37
incarnation wasn't in Bethlehem, the
15:40
first incarnation was the Big Bang when
15:43
divine energy materialized. That's beautiful.
15:46
And so every tree,
15:49
every, every plant, every
15:51
animal, all of life
15:53
discloses the, the mystery of
15:56
God. So we're fortunate enough,
15:59
um, my husband and I to live
16:02
in Vancouver right next to the,
16:04
to the, to, to the beach and right next
16:07
to, adjacent to Stanley Park.
16:10
Um, so
16:12
um, uh, we spent a lot of time
16:15
outside we in pandemic times. We started
16:18
and it has continued, uh, walking through
16:21
the woods. Um, and so
16:24
right now we're recording this in late uh,
16:27
summer. Uh, I find
16:30
my spiritual practice is meditating on a
16:33
dahlia adalia are these
16:35
amazing flowers
16:38
that uh, um, are
16:41
uh, they grow
16:43
um, taller than me and I'm
16:46
six foot two. Uh, so they're
16:49
huge.
16:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: My gosh.
16:50
>> Peter Elliott: Uh, I'm holding up my hands. Uh, it's a podcast.
16:53
You can't see it. Some of uh,
16:56
the blossoms are called dinner plate. They're the
16:59
size of a dinner plate and
17:01
intricately formed. The colors, the
17:04
symmetry, the sheer
17:07
beauty of them is
17:09
astonishing.
17:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. That sounds pretty contemplative,
17:15
Peter. I don't know.
17:16
>> Peter Elliott: It's as close as I'm going to get.
17:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: I'm sold. Absolutely.
17:24
Okay. Well, I had ah, a couple of
17:26
specific reasons why I wanted to Invite you
17:29
on our podcast. Um, first of all,
17:32
you've had a really significant leadership
17:35
impact on the Anglican Church of
17:38
Canada. You had a long
17:40
and uh,
17:43
um, well
17:45
respected career in a, leading a
17:48
flourishing cathedral church in Vancouver.
17:51
Um, you now continue to have an impact
17:54
as you offer coaching for people currently on the
17:57
ground in Christian leadership and
17:59
also in semi retirement,
18:02
you're continuing to do some new and creative
18:05
things, including a podcast whose
18:08
content speaks to me the Gospel of
18:10
Musical Theater. So we're going to get into all
18:13
of those um, pieces
18:16
of interest for me and for
18:19
listeners. But I think it's really helpful
18:22
to just start by talking
18:25
about a few takeaways that you might offer,
18:28
uh, those who are currently in the trenches in
18:31
Christian leadership. From your very
18:34
full and successful
18:36
um, run in parish
18:39
ministry, what were some of the biggest
18:42
learning curves for you?
18:43
>> Peter Elliott: Oh boy. You know,
18:47
in parish ministry specifically, I was dean
18:50
of Christchurch cathedral, Vancouver for 25 years.
18:53
Um, and now I do sort of
18:56
popping into parishes from time to time at the bishop's
18:59
request, um, helping out,
19:02
um, here and there, reading the
19:04
culture,
19:07
like um, in
19:10
adaptive leadership theory they talk about
19:13
what are the artifacts of culture
19:16
in a congregation.
19:18
Um, and some of that is uh,
19:21
are things like furniture,
19:24
um, processes of decision
19:27
making, that sort of thing.
19:29
Uh, another part are the
19:32
human documents, the human beings who make up
19:34
congregations and the way
19:37
they have figured out you know,
19:40
um, how to be church
19:43
uh, in our time.
19:46
Um, so that's a learning curve. I mean it just takes
19:48
years. Uh, uh, I
19:51
followed a number of luminaries at Christchurch
19:54
Cathedral in Vancouver. You know, ah, Herb
19:57
O'Driscoll now of blessed memory, Jim
20:00
Cruikshank, Michael Ingham.
20:02
Um, so there was my First Rector's
20:05
warden 10 years after I started,
20:08
introduced me to one of her friends as the
20:11
new dean.
20:14
Um, so it had
20:17
this, um, had a kind
20:19
of uh, a long
20:22
memory. Uh, and finding
20:25
a way in wasn't always easy.
20:28
In, in early days, the early days of the cathedral
20:31
were hard. Um, I
20:34
was a bit of a change agent so
20:36
um, you know that was, that was
20:39
difficult. But then
20:42
once I kind of absorbed the
20:45
culture and became part of it, really
20:47
by the end, very much a part of it, maybe too much
20:50
after 25 years.
20:53
Um, then it was
20:56
then, then it was like I caught sail.
21:00
Um, and, and things
21:03
clicked. Now that doesn't mean it was all beer
21:06
and skittles, dear Lord. I mean every day was a uh,
21:09
new set of problems and conflicts and
21:12
uh, difficulties and all that sort of stuff. But
21:15
I get summer to summarize reading the
21:18
culture, knowing the people,
21:22
and, and figuring out how.
21:25
How I sit in it.
21:29
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I mean,
21:32
I think that, um, those are some
21:35
really key ingredients. They all take time, don't
21:38
they? Like, I, I mean,
21:40
25 years is a real run
21:43
in parish ministry in one place.
21:46
I'm 10 years into, uh, St. George's
21:49
where I currently serve. And, yeah, I get
21:52
that sense of, like, the wind starting to be in the
21:55
sails, like, when you've put
21:58
in quite a bit of legwork in
22:01
terms of just, like,
22:03
getting to know where you are
22:06
and become part of it.
22:09
>> Peter Elliott: Speaking the language,
22:11
um,
22:14
knowing the characters. Um,
22:17
there was an article a long time ago from the Albin
22:19
Institute that the thesis of it was,
22:22
parish ministry begins after 10
22:25
years. And the notion was that it
22:28
takes 10 years to read the
22:30
culture, to be accepted, to
22:33
be trusted as someone
22:36
trusted, someone who would show up when
22:39
needed, um, take care of
22:42
folks.
22:44
Um, yeah,
22:47
and. And that's, you know, because after 10 years, I got itchy
22:50
feet and thought, it's time to move along somewhere. And
22:53
then I read that article and thought, oh, I guess I've just
22:55
begun. Um, so just to your
22:58
point, that's.
22:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: A really nice reframe, isn't it?
23:01
>> Peter Elliott: Just to your point about it taking time.
23:04
Think about it. I guess the meta, A metaphor would be,
23:07
you know, um, the time it takes for a
23:10
good wine to mature.
23:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yep, yep. I like that. I like that.
23:16
And, you know, it's a good learning.
23:19
Um, I don't know where you fall in this category, but, like, I'm
23:22
definitely somebody who wants everything done yesterday.
23:25
And so, like, I
23:27
definitely have come into the various
23:29
parishes. I've served with a million
23:32
ideas that I want to do right away. And, and
23:35
I generally get right on it. And,
23:38
um,
23:40
like, yeah, good
23:43
ministry needs to sort of grow at the
23:46
speed of relationship building, and that's
23:49
pretty slow. And.
23:50
>> Peter Elliott: Yeah.
23:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: And, like, that's not at all
23:55
uh, slight against getting
23:58
things started and trying new things and so on. I mean, I'm
24:01
a big fan of all of that, but I,
24:04
I also
24:06
just, like, it does take time
24:09
to build that trust and
24:12
that knowledge and.
24:13
>> Peter Elliott: Yeah.
24:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Are there things about parish ministry that
24:17
are just completely different from what
24:19
you thought 40, 44
24:22
years ago when you were ordained? Like, what are the
24:25
biggest surprises?
24:26
>> Peter Elliott: Well, I mean, for me, the biggest surprise was getting involved in parish
24:29
ministry because
24:32
I. Because I'm gay. And in
24:34
1980, being openly gay in the life of the
24:37
church was kind of. Ah, it
24:40
was a red mark against you. It was something you Know,
24:43
Scarlet Letter, whatever.
24:45
Um, uh.
24:48
And so my heroes had always been
24:51
church bureaucrats. I always thought people who
24:54
worked for the national church or
24:56
diocesan folks, um, that would be
24:59
a great career. And that was really my. The career path I was on.
25:02
Um, I worked for the Diocese of
25:05
Toronto, um, uh,
25:07
coordinating, uh, lay education for
25:10
about five years. And then I worked for the
25:13
National Anglican Church of Canada as a, uh,
25:15
senior, senior management and program for five
25:18
years. Um, and
25:21
it was, uh. And I thought because
25:24
there were lots of gay people who hid in church
25:26
bureaucracy, it was
25:29
safe. We weren't safe in parishes,
25:32
um, because God knows what homosexual people would be up
25:35
to in parishes. I mean, people's minds. Thank God.
25:38
This has changed so much. It's one of the big changes.
25:41
Thank God for it.
25:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: One of the big changes.
25:44
>> Peter Elliott: So I was. I was as surprised as anybody
25:47
when, uh, Michael M.
25:50
Ingham, who was then the bishop, came calling at the national
25:53
office, said, I'm looking for a dean. Uh,
25:56
he'd been elected bishop. And I said,
25:58
okay, Michael, I've been thinking about that. Um, I've got some names
26:01
for you. Because the job I had, I was
26:04
responsible for what the Anglican Church of Canada did in
26:07
Canada. Not the international stuff, uh, and that sort
26:10
of thing, but the Canadian Mission. Uh, and so
26:13
bishops were quite often in my office looking for clergy because
26:16
I knew lots of people across the country. I
26:18
said, I've got some names for you. He said, no, no, no, Peter,
26:21
I'm. I'm looking at you.
26:24
I said, oh, Michael, you gotta be out of your mind.
26:27
He said, what do you mean? I said, well, I've never lived west
26:30
of Burlington, Ontario. Um,
26:32
I've never been the rector of a parish, and
26:35
I'm gay and I'm not called a celibacy.
26:38
And he said, oh, okay, well, just hold on a minute. And
26:41
we talked those three things. He said,
26:43
um, the cathedral isn't
26:46
really like a parish. It's more like a program
26:49
center. And actually, your executive skills would
26:51
be really, really helpful. I said, well, I don't want to be sitting,
26:54
spending a lot of time having tea with old ladies and stuff. He
26:57
said, no, don't have to worry about that sort of thing. And
27:00
we talked about the west, living in Western Canada
27:03
on, um, the coast and, uh, and
27:06
around the gay thing. He said, I'll. I'll support you as far
27:09
as I'm able.
27:12
So I interviewed for the job, got the job. Long story short,
27:15
to, uh, your direct question, by the end of
27:18
my time, what I ended up loving about
27:21
parish ministry was Sitting
27:24
with older women
27:26
and men, having tea and
27:29
talking,
27:31
because I learned so
27:34
much. Their faith, their
27:37
faithfulness, their
27:39
questions, their capacity to
27:41
change. There was a
27:44
beautiful woman at the cathedral.
27:47
She died probably 20 years ago or so. She was
27:50
in her late 80s when I arrived.
27:53
And when she found out, uh,
27:55
Thomas and I were together, she
27:58
called me and she said, you're coming over for tea.
28:01
Both of you. Like that. I said, okay. So we
28:04
went over and had tea. And
28:07
it was her way of blessing, right? Her way of
28:10
saying, yeah. And she said, if ever
28:12
anybody tells you they're too old to change,
28:15
introduce them to me.
28:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh.
28:20
>> Peter Elliott: So. And so the cathedral, I found.
28:23
And I found in most parishes that I've
28:26
hung around in, if
28:29
you take. If, you know, you talked about being
28:32
on a quick learn, you want to do things. And, gosh, I was
28:35
that. I want to do everything. I wanted to build a congregation, wanted
28:37
to add new programs in all that. Once
28:40
I slowed down and started listening to folks,
28:45
I would wonder sometimes when I, you know, approach
28:48
the altar or the pulpit at the cathedral,
28:52
what the hell am I doing talking to these people
28:55
presiding? These are the, uh. These people.
28:58
My God, such faithfulness.
29:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: I know. And, like, through
29:04
really hard things, you know, like.
29:07
Like, you just. You understand
29:10
something about resilience and
29:12
generosity and, like, how
29:15
your heart can break and, like.
29:19
And beautiful things
29:22
can be done. Like, grace can come
29:25
through that heartbreak. Like, I
29:28
mean, it.
29:30
Uh. The point I just
29:33
always find kind of
29:36
overwhelming in worship is when people come up
29:39
for communion and,
29:41
like, I know what they're coming up with.
29:44
You know, I know what they're carrying. And I.
29:48
And there they, like, they come
29:51
so faithfully and.
29:55
And they know how God has been with them, you
29:58
know, like, they know how their
30:01
faith has seen them through. It's
30:03
remarkable. Like.
30:05
>> Peter Elliott: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah.
30:08
I. I mean, a similar thing for me,
30:10
we, on Good Friday at the cathedral,
30:13
um, did veneration of the cross
30:16
after homily and stuff. And so we bring in a
30:18
big cross and then invite people to come forward and stand by the
30:21
cross while the choir sang the reproaches or an anthem
30:24
and that sort of stuff. And I. Oh, I stay. I sat
30:27
there most, most, most, uh,
30:30
good. Most every Good Friday and just
30:33
silently wept. Seeing people stand in
30:36
front of the crowd, knowing what they were bringing, you know,
30:39
just because I knew these folks,
30:41
um, and amazed at their
30:43
faithfulness and their, um.
30:46
Yeah. So,
30:49
I mean, I know parishes can be frustrating and good God, you
30:52
know, pardon my language, there are some real assholes that you
30:54
encounter and in work in the
30:57
church and people who don't like,
31:00
people who didn't like me, which I find impossible
31:03
to understand why, but
31:05
that is impossible. But, you know, people just. They.
31:08
They weren't on my. We weren't on the same wavelength. That's
31:11
fine. Um, and people who,
31:14
especially through some of the sex
31:17
wars in the mid to late
31:19
90s, um, you know, said
31:22
horrible, awful things. So I'm not saying that
31:25
the church is far from a perfect
31:27
institution, but at it, at the core
31:30
of a healthy, uh, congregation,
31:33
there is a cohort of people
31:36
whose faithfulness is
31:39
overwhelmingly beautiful and
31:42
who really enriched my life
31:44
deeply. And, uh, many of them continue to be,
31:47
you know, friends, people I, I'm. Were able
31:50
to see. And, uh, and. And.
31:53
And sadly, now I've been retired for five years. I've
31:56
gone to too many funerals of. Of. Of folks
31:59
who were. Yeah, but that's life. We're only
32:02
here for a short time.
32:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I
32:08
think that you've named a few things here, but like, are there
32:11
any other ingredients that you would just
32:13
want to name that
32:16
help toward happiness
32:19
and fruitfulness in ministry? Because you're right, like,
32:22
the challenges are real. Um,
32:25
the grace is real, but the challenges are
32:28
significant. Um, the hurt and the
32:31
heartbreak that goes along with
32:34
so many aspects of ministry that
32:37
can be, um, significant. So
32:40
like anything else, you just want to.
32:42
>> Peter Elliott: It's hard right now, I think,
32:45
as the future, you know,
32:47
as we move into the future with the
32:50
decline, the precipitous decline
32:52
of institutional, uh,
32:55
Christianity, certainly right across North
32:58
America and Western Europe. It's different
33:01
experience in Asia, different experience on the African continent,
33:04
obviously. But,
33:07
um, with. With some exceptions,
33:10
um, my heart goes out to clergy who are
33:13
working these days.
33:15
Um, especially post pandemic, it's been really hard
33:18
to. To get back,
33:21
um. Uh, and
33:24
the stresses that that, uh,
33:27
brings out around finance. How do you
33:30
finance the institution, how do you care for
33:33
aging buildings? I mean, all of those things.
33:35
I are very
33:38
familiar issues, uh, from my own
33:41
practice of ministry. I guess the one thing, Martha, I'd say.
33:44
And I think you're doing it really well at St. Geor, and I see so many other
33:47
places that are doing it. And, uh, I'll
33:50
say it in an outrageous, provocative way. I don't think you can
33:53
spend too much money on the music
33:56
program.
33:58
M. Um. Yeah,
34:01
I mean, I facetiously used to say,
34:04
uh, about my time at the cathedral, you know, to
34:07
the. To my clergy team. And, uh, I was fortunate to work with
34:10
some first rate clergy over 25 years
34:13
and we're always three or four of
34:15
us, we think they're coming for our
34:18
sermons, they're coming for the music.
34:22
Because. And I think it's profound because I think
34:25
music speaks to a whole
34:28
other level of
34:30
consciousness than our didactic sermons
34:33
do. Right.
34:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
34:34
>> Peter Elliott: And when you look at the mega churches,
34:37
what they call worship, you know, if,
34:40
when I go to uh, a mega
34:43
church, that is usually about 15
34:46
minutes of singing,
34:48
that's the worship part and then there's the message and
34:51
then there's the commitment part. I mean,
34:54
um,
34:56
so uh, I
34:59
despair often when
35:01
I'm in churches at just
35:04
how bad the music is and I don't think
35:07
that's going to help us a bit. I, and it's, you know,
35:10
we're my, my background in
35:13
musical theater as well. I mean you can put on a great show,
35:16
but if the music sucks in a musical.
35:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: It'S um. Yeah, you're not gonna.
35:25
>> Peter Elliott: And for Anglicans anyway,
35:28
for Anglicans anyway, I think really for all
35:30
Christians, Sunday, uh, morning is musical
35:33
theater. The liturgy is musical
35:36
theater. Um, you know,
35:39
uh, you're, you break into song all of
35:41
a sudden in a great moment. You know, people say that
35:44
never happens. Well, in my life it happens. I sing
35:47
all. And it does at church. Yeah, we got
35:50
costumes on, there's a script. Particularly
35:53
in more formal traditions like Anglican. Um,
35:56
there's solos, you know, there's
35:59
quartets and there's a plot
36:02
and there's so.
36:05
And I think people respond to that when
36:08
it's when, when the musical theater, when
36:10
the music is of high.
36:14
The best we could offer, you know.
36:17
The best we can offer.
36:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. Well, and you know, to
36:21
go back to like an earlier point of yours,
36:23
which is blaming progressive
36:26
values for the decline of the
36:29
institutional church. I mean
36:31
I think that there's a, a much
36:34
stronger case to be made for secularism
36:37
being the root of the
36:40
decline of the institutional church and that,
36:43
you know, people have trouble connecting
36:45
to the transcendent. Well, music
36:48
is one of the most intuitive and
36:51
immediate ways to,
36:53
to allow
36:56
that connection. Right. To invite people
36:59
into that connection. So
37:01
yeah, you can't spend too much money on the music
37:04
program. Um, I can hear our,
37:08
the musical leaders in our audience
37:11
applauding. Well, you look at uh,
37:14
you look.
37:14
>> Peter Elliott: At the enormous popularity of Taylor Swift, for
37:17
example.
37:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, don't get me started about Taylor Swift
37:21
because I have a lot of.
37:23
>> Peter Elliott: Well, I do too. I mean
37:26
her concerts are
37:29
religious events in a whole.
37:32
And, and the music, I
37:35
mean people Sing along.
37:37
Um, they know all the songs, they know
37:40
the script. Um, and
37:43
on it goes with. With pop music and, uh.
37:46
Ah. Um, and I'm not saying
37:49
we have to, you know, have to bring pop music into the church alone. I
37:52
think it's a bad idea. Um,
37:55
but people's musical tastes
37:58
are actually quite sophisticated in this postmodern
38:00
era. And when they come to,
38:03
you know, a church that. That struggles through some
38:06
19th century Victorian, uh,
38:08
hymns badly. I happen to like a lot of 19th
38:11
century Victorian hymns. I'm that kind of dweeb. Church
38:14
dweeb. But, um,
38:17
I mean, no wonder they stay away in droves. It's. It just.
38:19
It. It's bad.
38:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah,
38:23
absolutely. Okay, well, we're gonna circle
38:26
back to musical, um, theater in
38:29
a little bit. But I do want to talk about clergy
38:32
coaching because you offer, um, some
38:35
coaching now, and I'm going to just,
38:38
uh, give a bit of a preamble here because I think that
38:41
it's helpful for our listeners to know that I
38:44
came to you for clergy coaching
38:46
in 2021, right in the thick of the
38:49
pandemic a few years ago now.
38:52
Yeah, Um, I think for me there were a
38:54
few reasons why I felt, uh,
38:58
like this would be a helpful step
39:01
forward for me in ministry. Um,
39:03
Covid got me, to be honest,
39:06
about some things that maybe I wasn't,
39:09
uh, being completely real about,
39:12
including some struggle with
39:14
burnout. Um, there was also just
39:17
something about all that, like distance,
39:20
enforced distance of COVID
39:22
that highlighted problems in our
39:25
organizational structure, communication, that kind
39:28
of thing that had been easier to
39:31
just overlook or ignore
39:33
when we were seeing each other
39:36
all the time. And that became quite
39:39
problematic when,
39:40
um, when we weren't
39:43
in the same building.
39:45
Um, I think that there were
39:48
two pieces around
39:51
our time together in that coaching
39:54
relationship that made the biggest
39:56
difference to me in my leadership capacity.
39:59
The first was just very basically the
40:02
I've been there too dynamic.
40:05
Um, that you are
40:08
somebody who can speak out of your own
40:11
experience of leadership. You're not candy
40:14
coating anything. Um, I
40:17
felt like my struggles were
40:19
normalized. I felt like
40:22
there were things that I could open up and
40:25
name because I
40:28
didn't feel as isolated in those
40:31
struggles. Um, so that was just
40:34
a really big piece of the
40:36
coaching journey. But then there was
40:39
also very much, um,
40:42
some concrete and doable
40:44
advice that you were able to offer me from a
40:47
different perspective, different lens,
40:50
um, more experience. There were just some
40:53
small steps and simple adjustments that
40:55
really did make a difference in helping
40:58
things to be better. So
41:01
my first question, after all of that
41:03
pretty is
41:05
um, what made you want
41:08
to get into coaching when you retired from full time,
41:11
right?
41:11
>> Peter Elliott: Um,
41:15
well I guess two things. One is
41:17
retirement. I mean and that could be a whole podcast
41:20
on its own because it's a huge issue.
41:23
And the baby boom, we're all retiring around the same time.
41:26
So retirement doesn't mean you stop living or stop
41:29
ministering. And I kind of knew what I didn't want to
41:32
do. I didn't want to do like long term interims filling in.
41:35
I do a little bit of that but um, not
41:38
a lot. Um,
41:40
and I've always been
41:42
interested in clergy development,
41:46
um, partly working with so many curates and associates
41:49
over the years. Um, and as
41:52
dean uh, in the diocese I, I had a fair
41:54
bit to do with, with clergy appointments and all that sort of stuff.
41:57
So curious about that.
41:59
Um, and I, you
42:02
know, like I enjoyed uh, sitting in the homes of
42:05
elderly people drinking tea and hearing about their lives.
42:09
One of the things I did a lot at the cathedral, which I didn't think I
42:12
was going to do, um, was being in
42:15
my office available to people
42:18
who, and I thought you
42:20
know, well, what do I like to do? I like, I
42:23
like listening to people. I'm, I, I'm
42:26
fascinated with human beings and what makes them tick.
42:29
And I had been helped
42:31
um, at various levels,
42:34
various periods over
42:36
my uh, ministry with
42:39
coaches, therapists, that sort of things.
42:42
I could do that. So uh, did
42:45
a little deep dive into how you do that and got
42:48
trained, uh, did training with the Neuro
42:51
Leadership Institute out of New York who
42:54
were really fascinating. They put together kind of brain science
42:57
and good coaching, um, and got
43:00
accredited and all that sort of stuff that took a couple
43:02
years to do all of that. I had to sit an exam, a
43:05
three hour exam. My God.
43:09
I um, know I hadn't had an exam for like
43:11
45 years, almost 50 years I hadn't sat
43:14
in an exam. And then you have your, your
43:17
uh, coaching, you
43:20
record sessions and
43:23
analyze uh, them and that sort of stuff. So, so did
43:26
all of that and found I was, I
43:29
looked forward like when I would, when your name would pop
43:32
up in my calendar that oh, I get to spend an hour with
43:35
Martha Tarnick and we're not going to
43:38
bullshit, we don't have to talk about the weather or that sort of
43:41
stuff. We're going to get right into
43:44
what's going on in her life and ministry,
43:47
uh, and focus and,
43:50
and, and, and, and take some positive steps
43:53
forward. So in retirement
43:56
it seems to me it's important not to just do
43:59
nothing. I didn't want to do nothing. I want to do
44:01
something. And I found this really. And continue
44:04
to find this absolutely enlivening
44:07
and energizing and educational. I
44:09
learned so much from my, my coaching
44:12
clients all the time.
44:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that's probably what makes you a good coach, is that, uh,
44:17
willingness to not
44:20
just offer your own expertise, but also to,
44:22
uh, to be a fellow
44:25
traveler, a fellow student.
44:28
>> Peter Elliott: Yeah.
44:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
44:32
So I feel like we've
44:35
kind of touched on this a little bit. But
44:38
what would you say are, like the common pressure
44:41
points across ministry as you
44:44
listen to people like me?
44:47
>> Peter Elliott: Yeah, well. And you are in a
44:50
unique and privileged situation where
44:53
you have a large congregation
44:55
of, uh, clergy colleagues that
44:58
work with you. Uh, diverse.
45:01
A lot of my clients are,
45:04
um, in small,
45:06
struggling congregations.
45:09
Um, they are the only, the only
45:12
priest there.
45:14
Um, and it's lonely.
45:17
It's just lonely. Right. And
45:20
it's, um. Uh. So I
45:23
think one of the pressure. One of the things that makes coaching
45:25
valuable for folks is the opportunity to
45:28
have a, uh, serious, full and frank conversation
45:31
with somebody about exactly what's going on. Be
45:34
heard, be seen,
45:36
um, and to think through what you
45:39
want. The other is,
45:42
and I sure know this, um, from my
45:45
own experience,
45:48
people, People have no
45:51
idea. Like, I think
45:54
I love laypeople and we've, we've talked
45:57
about how wonderful they are. I
46:00
don't think a lot of members of a
46:02
congregation know what is really involved in
46:05
being a parish priest. They
46:08
think. I think they think it's really about
46:10
Sundays, you know, and writing a sermon
46:13
and, you know, that must take so much time. Well,
46:16
holy cow. You know, I know. I think the clergy who are
46:19
listening know, um, yeah, you
46:22
spend a fair bit of time, the sermon is always with you. That's
46:25
not the, that. That's the fun part of the job,
46:28
you know, that's where you get to be a theologian, biblical
46:30
interpreter, cultural interpreter, all that sort of
46:33
stuff that. I mean, I love that part.
46:36
It was all the. It's the budgets, it's the
46:39
building, it's the conflicts that happen
46:41
inevitably in human community.
46:44
Uh, it's your own self doubt. It's imposter
46:47
syndrome. It's all of that
46:49
stuff that pops up. And here's my
46:52
point. It's really
46:54
easy to lose focus on.
46:57
So what is it that I'm wanting to have
47:00
happen here? What's my goal? What's my
47:03
vision for the work? Yeah.
47:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
47:06
>> Peter Elliott: So what people, what the feedback I
47:09
get from my coaching clients is,
47:12
um, and you went through the process as well. That
47:15
whole first process of identifying
47:18
3.3goals to kind of
47:21
focus on. Uh, I
47:24
had one client who said, you know, if you had done nothing
47:27
else with me, but that that was worth
47:30
it because it focused my mind. Okay, so
47:32
I've got, like, these three buckets of things that I'm working at.
47:35
Here's my vision of where we could
47:38
go. And then helps me think
47:41
through the planning steps
47:44
and navigate the inevitable, uh,
47:47
twists and turns in the journey to get there.
47:50
Um, and I think it's lacking
47:53
nobody else, uh, just speaking within the Anglican
47:56
system. I know people listening come from other
47:58
systems, but the church
48:01
beyond the parish. There's not a lot of help
48:04
for clergy, particularly who are on their
48:07
own in ministry settings to
48:10
say, you know, okay, I know you want to
48:13
serve the congregation. What is it? What's your vision
48:16
of where this congregation fair should be
48:19
going? And. And how do you imagine getting
48:21
there?
48:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, yeah, and that
48:25
agency part is, like, really easy to lose track
48:28
of. It is so easy just to become
48:30
somebody who reacts and who is
48:33
just sort of constantly responding to the things
48:36
that come up. Right. Um, it's.
48:39
It is difficult often when
48:42
you're in the thick of things, to be able to take a step back
48:45
and say, okay, like, what.
48:48
What am I discerning? My choices are here?
48:51
Like, what am I bringing to the table?
48:53
>> Peter Elliott: Yeah, yeah, there's a little diagram. I probably shared it with you
48:56
when we were doing our coaching journey from the, uh, Neuro
48:59
Leadership Institute from NLI that has,
49:02
uh, these five things in order.
49:05
Vision, planning, detail, problem, and drama.
49:09
And most of the
49:12
time, for clergy, we begin with
49:15
the drama.
49:17
Right. Somebody is not speaking to somebody
49:20
else or, you know, somebody didn't lock the church
49:23
or name your drama. They just, every
49:26
day, bloody dramas in the congregation.
49:29
And so, you know, what most of us are trained to do?
49:32
I got a drama. So you bring people together, you sit down and say,
49:35
well, we've had this drama. There's got to be a problem here. Let's
49:38
start it. Uh, how can we fix the problem?
49:40
And then you get into some detail about what the problem
49:43
is. And, okay, so that's what the problem is. So what
49:46
are we going to do differently? And so you can develop a
49:49
plan. And often in the midst of all that, someone will
49:52
say, but what is it we're trying to do in the first place? The
49:55
vision, in other words. So m.
49:58
Starting with vision. What is it we want to
50:00
do? What's the plan? Okay, let's
50:03
detail that out. Then moving toward
50:06
it. There's going to be problems along and drama. We can
50:09
deal with those and we can keep going back to the
50:11
vision. So.
50:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
50:16
I think that's extremely um, helpful. I have
50:19
to admit, like when I first signed up
50:22
for our coaching contract together, it was
50:25
a little, I was a little
50:28
worried that it m.
50:31
Was gonna feel too big, you know,
50:34
like that we would start kind of digging into
50:37
organizational structure and start digging
50:40
into things that needed to be
50:42
improved or whatever and that I
50:45
would end up feeling paralyzed
50:48
by how much needed to
50:51
change. Um, and you know, I think that that can
50:54
be like a, a reason why people fear
50:57
change, to be honest. Because
51:00
like, like what if it's
51:02
just too much? What if it's like
51:05
everything? I feel like you
51:08
were great about being able
51:10
to identify each time that we
51:13
met like one or two
51:16
bite sized concrete
51:19
actionables.
51:21
>> Peter Elliott: Right.
51:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, and you know, maybe this is
51:24
wishful thinking, um, for our
51:27
listeners. We usually don't
51:31
subscribe uh, to the idea that there's actually magic
51:33
bullets in ministry, but are there any
51:36
like just
51:39
little tweaks
51:42
that sort of generally work for
51:44
people, um,
51:47
across the people that you talk to?
51:50
Like are there one or two, like just kind
51:52
of bite sized
51:55
changes that tend to make a big difference?
51:57
>> Peter Elliott: I mean we've all gotten used to the Ed Friedman phrase
52:00
about non anxious presence. That that's what
52:03
good leadership involves.
52:05
Um, and I, I think sometimes in
52:08
ministry it felt to me like
52:11
everybody was trying to get me anxious about something else.
52:14
You know, um, there's not enough, you know, you're not
52:17
spending enough money on the building. And uh, why aren't
52:20
we doing more about the poor people who are coming to our door
52:23
and uh, et
52:26
cetera, et cetera and sort of. So I
52:28
think a key is breathing,
52:32
like not inhaling
52:35
all of uh, all of the anxiety
52:37
that is kind of the energy. I mean anxiety is
52:40
one way to look at it, institutional, uh, anxiety. The other
52:43
is that's part of where the energy is bubbling up firm
52:46
and uh, yeah. Taking a deep
52:49
breath and
52:52
remembering focus and goals
52:55
and then treating people,
52:58
giving people some space but also
53:01
calling if that's what you're
53:04
getting.
53:07
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
53:09
>> Peter Elliott: And then loving the people. I mean I think that's the other.
53:12
And most clergy, uh, there are some clergy who genuinely
53:15
don't like people and I wonder what the hell they're doing in the job.
53:18
Um, because it's people oriented. It's a people
53:21
oriented business. Uh,
53:24
but yeah, finding ways to love
53:27
them. That
53:29
sounds facile. I don't mean it to be.
53:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh no, I don't think so.
53:36
Um, I think people will connect
53:39
to those two pieces and obviously
53:41
to do a, uh, coaching,
53:44
um, contract with
53:47
you or with somebody does get into
53:50
the particulars of the ministry context.
53:53
But I think that those are just a few broad
53:55
brushstrokes that sort of
53:58
are good reminders, you know. Love and
54:01
breathing.
54:02
>> Peter Elliott: Love and breathing. Yeah. That
54:05
sounds like a title of a book, doesn't it?
54:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: It sounds like kind of maybe
54:09
that. Maybe that's something you should think about,
54:12
Peter. Love and breathing.
54:16
Okay, let's, um, close
54:18
with some, um, conversation about
54:21
this fun project that you're working
54:24
on right now. A podcast
54:26
with Nathan, uh, Larude, the
54:29
Gospel of Musical Theater. I think that we
54:32
can both say that we're people
54:35
who, uh, get a lot out of musical
54:37
theater. I grew up on a steady diet of musical
54:40
theater.
54:41
>> Peter Elliott: We'll have to have you on our podcast.
54:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: A huge part. Yeah, Yeah, I
54:45
have thoughts. Um,
54:48
uh, it was definitely a
54:51
big, big part of my formation. So
54:54
you've said that, uh, it's pretty important to
54:57
you and your life and
54:59
spirituality. Music in general, musical theater
55:02
specifically. What, uh, what do
55:05
people need to know about the Gospel of Musical
55:08
Theater in this fun podcast?
55:10
>> Peter Elliott: Wow. So,
55:12
um, a
55:15
while ago, about
55:18
maybe 10 years ago, I guess now, we. When
55:21
we got a new car, it had satellite radio in it. And I became
55:24
a subscriber to satellite radio and began to listen to.
55:27
There's a Broadway channel on satellite
55:30
radio. It's all Broadway all the time. When I first started
55:33
listening to it, every Monday was Merman Monday. It was all Ethel
55:35
Merman all the time. And it
55:38
helped me.
55:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: That sounds like a lot.
55:41
>> Peter Elliott: Oh, you can't have too much. Do you know that Ethel Merman was an
55:44
Episcopalian? She, uh, went to
55:46
church every Sunday at St. Bart's Fifth
55:49
Avenue, ah, Park Avenue in New York, and sang
55:52
the hymns. Uh,
55:55
so it was kind of the,
55:57
uh, releasing of my inner musical theater
56:00
queen, really. Um,
56:02
um. And I began
56:05
to listen more and more when I was
56:08
driving or that sort of stuff, uh,
56:11
to the golden age of Broadway shows and also
56:14
new shows. And I just realized I really love this stuff and was
56:17
invited to teach a course at conference, uh, center, the
56:19
Sorrento center, which, you know, in the BC's
56:22
interior. And I taught there a lot. Taught course on the
56:25
Gospel of John and the Eucharist and, And Rene
56:28
Girard and all that sort of stuff. And they said, what do you want to do?
56:31
And I was kind of. We were actually in Hawaii and I
56:34
thought, ah, uh, what
56:37
if what if you looked at musical theater
56:40
as, uh, a
56:43
way for the gospel to be interpreted? Uh,
56:48
and so my mind started going that way. Um,
56:50
Nathan, who's the dean of the cathedral in Detroit, was
56:53
coming. I, uh, invited him to preach at the
56:56
cathedral here in Vancouver. Met him at the airport. We went
56:59
out for lunch and caught up on news. He said, what are you
57:02
doing? And still one of the things I'm doing is sort of thinking about this course
57:05
called the Gospel Musical Theater. I don't know what I'm going to do.
57:08
Um, but he said, oh. Then we went out for dinner
57:11
and we ordered drinks. And he said, what shows
57:13
are you thinking of covering? And I
57:16
said, well, of course we'd begin with Rogers and Hammerstein, probably
57:19
Oklahoma, and work our way through
57:22
that. Began a conversation that was
57:24
2019 that we haven't
57:27
stopped having. He ended up co teaching
57:30
the course with me at Sorrento. He's
57:33
also a musical theater queen. In fact, the
57:35
tagline of gospel musical theater is cathedral
57:38
deans and musical theater queens, Nathan
57:41
Larude and Peter Elliott. So we
57:44
are very out as queer gay
57:46
men, uh, who
57:49
love musical theater. And,
57:52
um, so we take a
57:54
show like, we've just done
57:57
this a number of times. Uh, we've
58:00
seven seasons of our podcast
58:03
are available anywhere you get your podcast, gospel, uh,
58:06
musical theater. Um, take a show
58:09
like My Fair lady, um,
58:12
and begin to tease
58:14
apart what's going on there
58:17
and look at the gender politics of it.
58:19
Um, look at where gospel comes,
58:22
the transformation of Eliza.
58:25
Um, uh, but also
58:28
what a horrible, horrible, horrible person Henry
58:31
Higgins is.
58:32
Um, the first time we taught at
58:35
Sorrento, we
58:39
trashed, uh, My Fair lady in terms of its gender
58:42
politics. And there was this lovely
58:45
woman, uh, from the interior who was sitting in the front row and hanging
58:48
on her every word. And she burst into tears. She said,
58:51
I love that show, and you guys have just wrecked
58:54
it for me. But we look at Oklahoma, for
58:57
example, which has to do. There's
58:59
not an indigenous person in the musical
59:02
Oklahoma yet. Oklahoma was where all
59:05
the indigenous, many indigenous tribes,
59:07
nations, uh, were put.
59:10
Uh, it's, it's a peon to
59:13
statehood and really to white
59:15
supremacy. Um, we
59:18
look at South Pacific and its,
59:21
uh, absolute clarity about,
59:24
uh, the need to end racial discrimination. We look at the
59:27
king and I and talk about colonialism.
59:31
Um, so Nathan and I
59:34
began this conversation, which we continue to have.
59:37
Um, in the pandemic. We offered the course
59:40
at Sorrento just before the pandemic at Sorrento.
59:43
Then in summer school at Vst and then George
59:45
Floyd, the George Floyd Black Lives
59:48
Matter thing that happened. And Nathan called
59:51
and said we need to do another version
59:54
of this called Gospel Musical Theater Race and
59:57
Redemption. So we taught that
1:00:00
at Vancouver, uh, School of Theology
1:00:02
and at Trinity Cathedral in Portland and at
1:00:05
Sorrento Center. And that's become part uh,
1:00:09
of the uh, part of the
1:00:11
analysis that we bring to
1:00:14
musical uh, theater. So it's gospel but you
1:00:17
know, like Frederick Buechner says, the gospel has to be bad news before
1:00:20
it's good news. So we also look at
1:00:23
the way musical theater
1:00:25
reveals the
1:00:28
injustices and oppressions
1:00:30
of our time and how gospel can speak into
1:00:33
that.
1:00:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow. Wow. So we can
1:00:38
find uh, all seven seasons wherever we get
1:00:41
our podcasts. That sounds fantastic.
1:00:44
I do have to just say so we did
1:00:46
Oklahoma, um, in my high
1:00:49
school and we had such a forward thinking
1:00:52
drama teacher that she actually found a
1:00:54
way of like
1:00:57
incorporating
1:00:59
um, kind of an introduction
1:01:02
to the musical that framed the
1:01:05
indigenous reality of
1:01:08
um, and that was in the 90s in like rural
1:01:11
Ontario. I just like Nancy
1:01:14
Lilliman. I'm not sure where she is now
1:01:17
but she deserves real props
1:01:19
for um, finding a way of highlighting
1:01:22
that in rural Ontario.
1:01:24
>> Peter Elliott: Bless her heart musical. It gave me
1:01:27
goosebumps when you're talking about it. I mean I think one thing Nathan and I
1:01:30
say is we approach uh,
1:01:32
uh, a uh, show like in Oklahoma
1:01:35
or My Fair lady or whatever, um, or you're
1:01:38
in Town or Hamilton or the Barbie movie
1:01:41
even as we would approach, as preachers would
1:01:44
approach, a biblical text. Right,
1:01:47
yeah, it's a text, it's there. It
1:01:50
has a particular origin but its
1:01:52
interpretation is always evolving
1:01:55
and it provides the opportunity
1:01:58
for commentary, um,
1:02:01
ah, for thoughtful reflection.
1:02:04
Um. And so
1:02:07
we use our skills as
1:02:10
exegetes, people who do
1:02:12
exegesis. We exegete the
1:02:14
text and particularly the songs of
1:02:17
a uh, uh, of a, of a
1:02:20
show. Um, and so like
1:02:23
Oklahoma, there's been. There was a recent revival
1:02:26
uh, on Broadway that Ebbs
1:02:29
did what your teacher did in high
1:02:32
school, um, and
1:02:34
really played up the whole notion of gun
1:02:37
violence. Um, so that
1:02:40
the, the uh,
1:02:42
conclusion uh, of Oklahoma. I
1:02:45
mean it's such a weird show in so
1:02:47
many ways, but at the heart of it,
1:02:51
this
1:02:53
Judd figure, right, this
1:02:56
outsider who
1:02:58
is, you know, scapegoated
1:03:01
by the community. All of the
1:03:04
sexuality that is kind of
1:03:07
hidden over gets focused on
1:03:09
Judd. It's a fight at the
1:03:12
end. It's a knife wound or is it a
1:03:14
gun wound? You know, um.
1:03:17
And so the set of this
1:03:20
reinterpretation of Oklahoma is the
1:03:23
back of the stage is filled with guns,
1:03:25
and at the, uh,
1:03:28
finale, the cast comes out covered in
1:03:31
blood.
1:03:33
Right. So all of a sudden, Oklahoma goes from being this
1:03:36
sunny thing. I mean, when you're curly,
1:03:39
when you're a blonde haired, blue eyed,
1:03:42
hunky cowboy, uh,
1:03:44
everything's going your way. You're a
1:03:47
boy in the west.
1:03:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, what a beautiful.
1:03:51
>> Peter Elliott: Everything's going my way.
1:03:54
Yeah. On it goes.
1:03:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, okay,
1:03:58
well, that is definitely something that,
1:04:01
uh, I want to check out as soon as possible and I hope
1:04:04
our listeners well as well.
1:04:07
Um, we're going to take a quick break and come back
1:04:10
for some closing rapid fire questions.
1:04:13
So, uh, stick with us and
1:04:16
we'll close it in a few minutes.
1:04:22
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
1:04:25
I continue to be here with Peter Elliott,
1:04:28
and we're going to close our show with
1:04:30
some rapid fire questions. So, Peter,
1:04:33
ready? Now, we always
1:04:36
do tell our guests that you can take these as
1:04:39
seriously or not as you
1:04:42
want. Okay? So no pressure,
1:04:45
but if you were Pope for a day, what would
1:04:47
that day?
1:04:48
>> Peter Elliott: Well, if I were Pope of the Roman Catholic Church,
1:04:51
the only Pope. Uh, well, let's talk about him. There are other
1:04:54
popes. Uh, I would ordain women.
1:04:57
Um, I would let clergy get married. And
1:05:00
I would make a statement that affirms
1:05:03
the presence in the church, the gifts and
1:05:06
skills of lesbian, gay, transgender and
1:05:09
bisexual members of the body
1:05:12
of Christ.
1:05:15
Okay.
1:05:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: M. So that sounds like a full and
1:05:18
productive first day. You're not going to wait 10
1:05:20
years.
1:05:21
>> Peter Elliott: Just do it right away. Pope can do it.
1:05:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
1:05:26
What theologian or
1:05:29
historical Christian figure would you want to
1:05:32
meet? Bring back to life, have supper
1:05:34
with, grab a beer with.
1:05:36
>> Peter Elliott: So I'm a Gospel of John geek.
1:05:40
Um, like, complete nerd.
1:05:42
I would like to meet the
1:05:45
author or the group
1:05:48
of authors who pull together
1:05:51
this remarkable, weird text
1:05:54
that finds its way into our New Testaments
1:05:57
and is read reverently in churches around the
1:06:00
world.
1:06:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's a good answer. Okay,
1:06:06
um, just, I have to say, as an aside,
1:06:08
I had Elizabeth Schrader, Polczer, on the
1:06:11
ah podcast earlier this summer, talking
1:06:14
about her pretty groundbreaking research into the
1:06:17
Gospel of John.
1:06:19
>> Peter Elliott: And I still like Martha, even if Martha is really
1:06:21
Mary.
1:06:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: I agree.
1:06:24
>> Peter Elliott: Cause what a name.
1:06:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wholeheartedly, I know.
1:06:29
Exactly. Exactly.
1:06:32
Okay. What will history remember from our current time
1:06:35
and place? Huh?
1:06:35
>> Peter Elliott: Um, I'm hoping
1:06:38
history will remember. This was a time in
1:06:41
history when the United States of America
1:06:44
elected the first
1:06:46
African American, South Asian woman
1:06:49
as President of the United States. That's my hope.
1:06:54
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, uh, my gosh. Okay. So I just got some
1:06:56
chills listening to you say that, because by the
1:06:59
time this podcast airs, will know
1:07:02
it's.
1:07:03
>> Peter Elliott: I know, right?
1:07:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, like, the people who are listening to
1:07:07
this podcast in the future,
1:07:10
like, they will know whether that's. That hope
1:07:13
came to fruition or not.
1:07:14
>> Peter Elliott: I preached. I preached on this past Sunday, which was
1:07:17
just after the Democratic Convention. And
1:07:20
the first two sentences of my sermon were pretty much what
1:07:23
I said about the hope that I feel
1:07:26
seeing, uh, around gender, around race,
1:07:29
around all sorts of things, around progressive values.
1:07:32
Just two sentences at the beginning of the sermon. And then I preached
1:07:35
for 20 minutes on the John 6,
1:07:38
ending, uh, the discourse of bread, of life.
1:07:42
So the warden got an irate letter saying,
1:07:44
how dare Elliot use the
1:07:47
pulpit for politics and
1:07:50
he should apologize to the whole Church of
1:07:52
England because this woman wants to cancel
1:07:55
Christmas. And the warden, I'm just filling in this
1:07:58
church wrote and said, what should I do with this? And I said,
1:08:01
absolutely nothing.
1:08:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's fair advice.
1:08:11
She wants to cancel Christmas. Oh,
1:08:14
goodness. What
1:08:17
are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
1:08:19
>> Peter Elliott: You know,
1:08:22
I'm part of a commission that,
1:08:24
uh, in. In the Anglican Church of
1:08:27
Canada looking at the future. And we were,
1:08:30
uh, there's about 10 of us. I'm the old guy on it.
1:08:33
Most everybody is a generation or so younger than
1:08:36
me. Um, and we were meeting in
1:08:38
Montreal, went to the cathedral for
1:08:41
a noonday Eucharist, and
1:08:44
there were like 15 people
1:08:47
there in this big building. And we came
1:08:49
back after him. We're reflecting on that and thought
1:08:52
that's kind of a symbol of where the church is. You
1:08:55
know, small gathered communities
1:08:58
in spaces that are too big for
1:09:01
us. And one of our members said, you
1:09:04
know, you put 15 people in
1:09:06
a old cathedral and it
1:09:09
feels empty. Bring 15 people around
1:09:12
my dining room table and it's a crowd.
1:09:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
1:09:16
>> Peter Elliott: And that's my. I think the future of Christianity is.
1:09:19
I don't know who am I? But,
1:09:22
um, there's always going to be ways for followers
1:09:25
of Jesus to meet around a table
1:09:27
with, uh, the scriptures, a cup of
1:09:30
wine and a plate of bread, and say their
1:09:33
prayers and tell the story
1:09:36
and remember that Christ is with them and seek
1:09:39
to serve the world. That's my
1:09:42
hope for that's that. That's my hope is
1:09:45
that continues. And I believe that will continue. I have absolute
1:09:48
confidence that that'll continue. The
1:09:50
institutional forms may. Are going
1:09:53
to slide away, lots of them. I hope some are
1:09:56
retained because I love the aesthetic. I love it speaks
1:09:59
to me um, but there's always going to be
1:10:02
Christians who meet around bread, wine and
1:10:05
scripture and want to serve the world.
1:10:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, that sounds
1:10:12
hopeful and um, like
1:10:15
something beyond optimistic. It sounds
1:10:18
like we can really trust
1:10:21
in that. Uh,
1:10:24
where can people find more about Peter?
1:10:26
>> Peter Elliott: I've been meaning to get a website up forever and I haven't.
1:10:29
If you Google Peter Elliot Priest, you'll find a Wikipedia
1:10:32
page and there'll probably be lots of links
1:10:35
to sermons and things I've written in the
1:10:37
Anglican Journal and articles here and
1:10:40
there. Or you can just go to the.
1:10:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Podcast, like,
1:10:45
Yep, go to the podcast. What about
1:10:47
coaching?
1:10:48
>> Peter Elliott: Like, no, I don't have a website. I don't have anything like
1:10:51
that. Contact, um, Martha and
1:10:53
Martha can give you. If people contact you through this
1:10:56
podcast, you can give them my contact information.
1:10:59
I, I, I, I
1:11:02
started to develop a website and
1:11:05
I, I ran out of time because I was getting so
1:11:08
many coaching clients. And then so all
1:11:11
my referrals are word of mouth and
1:11:13
um, okay, send me an
1:11:16
email.
1:11:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, you heard it here on this podcast. Word of
1:11:21
Mouth continues. Thank
1:11:24
you so much for your time today, Peter. Thank you for this.
1:11:27
I think fairly wide reaching
1:11:30
conversation and lots, uh, of different
1:11:33
fun and insightful elements to it. I'm really
1:11:36
grateful for your time as always.
1:11:37
>> Peter Elliott: You're welcome.
1:11:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: We always end with, we always end with a
1:11:41
word of peace. So Peter, may the peace of God
1:11:43
be with you.
1:11:44
>> Peter Elliott: And you too, Martha. Thanks for the invitation. Always a joy to talk to
1:11:47
you.
1:11:54
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:11:57
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1:12:00
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