Latest / Intentional Guy / The Slow Drift: How Good Men Lose Course Without Noticing | Pastor Timothy Allen

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The Slow Drift: How Good Men Lose Course Without Noticing | Pastor Timothy Allen · Intentional Guy

• Michael Chestnut: Welcome back to the Intentional Guy Podcast. Today I'm sitting out with Pastor Timothy Allen. He has 43 years of walking with Christ and over 20 years in pastoral ministry. Also, from what I can read on him, you've been a clergy at the prison and you've written a book. So it is an honor to have you on here today. And I really would love to get your perspective, get your story, and kind of talk about where God's kind of leading us into this. especially like your book. I wish I would have read that be before the fall. I I had my my season in there, and I think all of us Christian men, that that is something that we should tune into and hone into because I mean right there just goes with the scriptures. I mean the enemy is out to just destroy us. And sometimes we make it so very easy for him. Timothy Allen: That's true. Absolutely. Yep. Michael Chestnut: So but if you wouldn't mind, tell us a little bit about ya and your story. Timothy Allen: So first, Mike, I appreciate the opportunity to be on to talk to you and also your audience. I am a native Bostonian. I am a die-hard Boston Celtics fan. There is Kelly Green in these veins right now. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Timothy Allen: I've been I've been a Christian since I was 17 years old. and I've got a few years on me right now. I've had an opportunity to serve Christ in the church in many different capacities. Before I was a head pastor, I was a youth pastor. Before I was a youth pastor, I was a Bible study instructor. you talked about my being a chaplain. the the way that I actually made my way into the chaplain is pretty interesting. Many years ago, while I was in my 20s, I believe I was invited by a woman who was an evangelist. I was living in the state of New Jersey at the time. And I was invited to come out and speak to some young men. These were teenagers who were incarcerated. And I told her at the time, I said, I don't know what I could say to them. I've never been the person who got in trouble, never been arrested, never lived that kind of lifestyle, had no idea what I would say or how I could be beneficial. And she told me to just come because she perceived that God had given me something to say. So I went and I'm in a room. There probably were about 20 to 25 young men in there. We had a little bit of a devotion. She introduced me like you did, and then she gave me the floor. And then I just began to share from the scriptures. And what I discovered that night as I was talking, all of those young men were on the edge of their chairs. And it was like one of those experiences where you're watching yourself do something and you're saying to yourself, Am I actually doing what I'm doing? And I discovered that night, surprisingly, That God had given me a message that resonates with a particular group of people. And that group of people are those that are incarcerated. And I find it so funny that he takes the person who's never been incarcerated and gives him a message and a methodology that reaches that particular crowd. So I learned early on that you never know how God is going to use you, and you never know what he's put on the inside of you until you actually go. And that sort of was the start of my journey of working with young men and then branching out into grown men. That's where it all started many years ago. Michael Chestnut: Wow. One thing you don't know about me was I worked in corrections for a long time. I I I was in fact our resume is almost sounding quite a bit. I started off as a youth pastor, went into associate pastor. but then I had this season in my life where Baptist is where I came from and you call it f fall from grace, whatever you want to call what happened in my life. And I got far from God and I ended up working in a prison, And I was like, God, why did you even send me here? now 20 years later did I know the plans he had for me and how he would use that time in there. And it was it was both Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: giving and receiving. I th I think I received more than I probably gave in there. And that is also the place where God finally in my my run from God that God chased me and got me again, so it's it the mysteriousness of God I love because he can take all those things together and And I I've learned a long time ago never to doubt where and how he can use my story or my life and also never doubt who he can use to change me as well. Timothy Allen: Exact exactly. you said you said something there that I tell people all the time in going into facilities, what I receive far exceeds what I give. I even tell that to the men in the facility. They don't understand how it's possible. But only those who go truly understand truly understand what I'm talking about. how can you how can you not be encouraged when you're talking to a man. Who probably will never leave the facility unless he dies or the Lord raptures his church, and yet he'll look you straight in the face and say that the Lord is good and he'll mean it. How how can you, whose situation is not as intense as his, not be encouraged by someone who would do something like that? And that's just story after story after story of men who are surrounded by evil and violence all day. But who would stand up and declare the goodness of God and say how they are maintaining their faith and how they continue to walk with God and how he's helping them. And as I said, they don't understand what that does for me. they're just so appreciative that someone would come to see them, someone would come to to share the gospel with them or, give up of their personal time. And you're right, what you receive far exceeds what you give. Michael Chestnut: Well and that is true. And like I said, I I've actually got the opportunity to interview two guys who were in prison when I worked there that are released now. And man, what a joy to watch because like you just said, watch watching the the change in a man who receives Christ in prison from where God took him to to where that guy is. Because walking as a Christian in that facility, people think, a lot of people find God and find religion in prison, which is true, which is true. But, the real test is how the man walks. And Timothy Allen: Sure. Michael Chestnut: and and to walk as a Christian in that place, it it it to me, I've I've been blessed to watch that journey and see it. And then be encouraged if that man can walk in the walk it like that in that place. I have no excuse with where I live to be able to serve God and and to speak of his glory. So Timothy Allen: That's true. Absolute, absolutely 100 100% agree in, story after story of different individuals that I've come in contact with, like you, that are the that are the same way. I'm I'm going to live this life no matter where I am. And I'm going to be a Christian, in this facility. I'm going to be a Christian, if God ever opens the door and let me out of here. I'm gonna be a Christian even if I even if I get out of here. At some point before our our conversation is over, there's a very interesting story that I'll that I'll share with you of a of a young man who was who was incarcerated with he was a part of a a major case. There were like multiple defendants, and I'll share it with you at some particular point. So remind me before this is over. Very interesting story. Michael Chestnut: I I'm already like, let's go into it. Timothy Allen: Well, let so so there was so I'm I'm always amazed that, everybody gets holy when they go to when they go to jail. a as you said, everybody everybody finds God. Now, there are some who are playing games and there are some who are sit who are serious. And it never ceases Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Timothy Allen: to amaze me that the men don't understand that God can tell the difference between those who are playing games and those who are serious those who are serious. So there's one individual I met years ago. He's he's a a defendant. And there were multiple defendants in this case. And basically what had happened was there was a fight outside of a nightclub. And in the course of the fight, the one gentleman was struck, he fell, he hit his head against the against the ground and he died, head hit the curb and he died. So everyone who was involved in the fight got arrested. So they all come to the jail. And the individual that I'm thinking about, everybody started going to church, but this guy was this guy was different. he he he met Christ for real. And he started he started living the life, not just during the time when we would have chapel service, but I would come to the facility at different times and I would see a bunch of men, standing around a table. And in the middle of the table is this guy, he's praying, he's praying for everybody, and he's just doing what he believed that God wanted him to do, had a whole lot of joy. So a as the time went on, his case for some strange reason got separated out from everybody else. So He's gonna be tried by himself. The others are still being tried together. Everybody tried to say that, he was, he was telling. And he's like, I'm not telling anything. I'm just, I'm just, living my life and doing what I believe that God wants me, wants me to do. So when it finally came time for his trial to happen, he he asked to see me. So I go, I go visit him. And he says to me, He says, Pastor Allen, he says, Listen, I need to talk to you about my case. Now, the first thing I said, listen, I am not a lawyer. Do not be, don't. I don't don't ask me advice. I can't do I can't do anything like that. So he says, no, it's not that kind of question. He's like, I just need to ask you something. So I said, okay, I'll listen to you. So he says, Listen, I had some involvement in this situation. And I've been praying and I've been asking God. I I'm not asking God to just let me go home because I was culpable to some point. But all I've asked for is fairness. And I don't believe that they're treating me fairly. And I just want to be treated fairly. So he says, when I go to court tomorrow, they're probably gonna, they're probably gonna offer me a deal. I said, okay, what do you think they're gonna offer you? He said, I think they're gonna offer me five years. And then he says, I can't do five years. I can do four years, but I can't do five years. Now, I didn't understand the big difference between five and four, but you know, I'm Michael Chestnut: Right. Timothy Allen: not the person who has to serve the time. So I don't under Michael Chestnut: Correct. Timothy Allen: I don't understand the difference between five and four. So he says, What should I he says, what should I do? When I when I go there, I says, Well, obviously you've been you've been praying about it, and if four years, is what you would like to see God do on your behalf, I would stick with that and see what happens when you and see what happens when you go. the Bible lets says the cat make our request known unto God, so let him know. Okay. So he goes to court, comes back, he asks to see me again. So I come back. So he's telling me this story. So I asked him, I said, What happened when you went to court? So he says, Pastor Alan, when we went to court, my lawyer came in and he told me that they had offered me a deal. It was nine years. And he says, Wait, nine years? They were talking five before. How did we get to nine? So he says, No, I'm not taking nine years. We're just gonna have to go to trial. Okay. So his lawyer goes back, he comes back again. And his lawyer says, Okay, I've talked to the ADA. I've been able to get them down to five years. And he says, he took he looks at his lawyer and he says, I can't do five years. I can do four years. He says, lawyer, is frustrated. But what's the big difference between Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Timothy Allen: what's the big difference between five and four? I don't understand. He's just sticking to his guns. He says, No, I can do four years. I can't do five years. Okay, so the lawyer goes back, talks to the ADA again, comes back, and he says, what? The ADA has agreed to give you four years. Now, these are his words. The next thing I'm gonna say are his words, and I can see it like it was yesterday. He said, When my lawyer told me, That they had agreed to the four years. He says, Pastor Allen, no lie. I heard the Spirit of God speak to me in that moment. And the Spirit of God said, Tell them no. So, so I asked him, I said, I said, What did you do? So he says, I told him no. And he says, My lawyer was livid. Okay, because he went back, he's negotiating, he's livid. So the lawyer got the lawyer got mad. He walked, he walked out. So he's thinking, okay, when he goes back. And tells the ADA this, we're going to trial. Cause I've already I I've just turned down the deal that I wanted. So he says, he starts praying, God, I trust you. He says, but I have to be honest, I was nervous during this particular time. So he says, his lawyer comes back and he's got the ADA that would be prosecuting the case. They come back together. And so he's thinking they're gonna tell him, okay, we're gonna go in, we're gonna pick a jury, and we're going to we're going to trial. All right. So he says, the lawyer comes back in and the ADA talks. And this is what he says. He says, Listen, we understand that your role in this was minimal. So this is what I'm willing to do. I'll give you, I'll offer you two years. I'll count the 18 months that you've already done. Give me six, give me six months in the house of corrections. And he said, the same voice. That told him no to say no before when the ADA offered him that deal, the same voice said, Tell them you'll take it. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Timothy Allen: And so he went and did six months in the House of Corrections, went home and is and is living and is living his life to the glory, to the glory of God. And the and the moral of the story was that he would have been willing to accept something more than what God wanted to give him. Because he would Michael Chestnut: Mm. Timothy Allen: have accepted four had God not spoken up and told him, Don't do it, tell them no, tell them no. And just that's just one of many stories of men who have trusted God within the facilities that I've gone that I've gone to. Absolutely, absolutely amazing, one after the other. Michael Chestnut: And what such a what a test of faith too, right? What a test of faith. Because hearing that story and I I would the panic, you know, all Timothy Allen: Sure. Michael Chestnut: the other stuff that it you you can't get rid of your human element here and Timothy Allen: Absolutely. Michael Chestnut: then to say God is you're looking at four, you're thinking this, and you even get to that what you ask, but then you hear God the conviction of knowing, okay, my God is saying no. And I I have to be a fool in man's eyes to say no. Timothy Allen: Exactly. Michael Chestnut: Right? But then the ob God rewards the obedience. Timothy Allen: Sure, absolute absolutely. Absolutely. Michael Chestnut: And it and it doesn't matter where you're at in that. And that and that's one of the things I find because I was in my own sort of prison through my my failures and through my addictions and things that happened in my life, right? And many times those were the things that led me. And I think it took me 15 years to get there because I I had to I had to learn a totally different God than what I grew up. knowing because I grew up knowing my dad's God and not really seeing my own personal relationship with God. And and God was like, no, that's you're still with Roy's God. I'm I want I want to be your God. I have seen stories like that as well. And it always blows me away because the level of faith and trust it takes and and the bravery to do that is Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: something we'll never understand. I mean you kind of get a little glimpse of it because we've been behind bars with those men, but we got to walk out. Timothy Allen: Right, exactly. Michael Chestnut: So I I can respect that so much more because that four year I'd have been jumping on it. Timothy Allen: And I'm sure I'm sure the other men in the facility, and he and he told me this, the other men in the facility told him he was crazy that when they offered him the four years to just say to just say no. But he was proven to be he was proven to be right. And it and it all tracked, when everybody looked at his situation, why did he receive what he received? Because the other men involved in the situation got nothing like what he like what he received. And so when people did the comparison, the only conclusion they could draw was the fact that he was real in his walk. And the others were and the others were, doing things for show, but he but he meant it. And that was the conclusion that they that they drew. And I think also, he didn't, as I told you, he didn't say, God, just get me up out of here. he went to God and said, God, I admit I have some culpability in this. I'm not asking to just go home because I played a part in it. I just simply wanted them to be fair with me. And I didn't believe that they were being fair. And I think that I think that God heard that. And I told him, I said, that makes a big difference in how you approach God. You didn't approach God saying, God, my hands are completely clean. Get me out of here. You approach Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Timothy Allen: God and says, No, God, my hands are dirty. They are. They're just not as dirty as they're claiming, but but they are dirt, but they are dirty. And I'm asking for mercy. And he found out that true to his word, God truly is a God who loves to show mercy. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. And as a pastor kid growing up, I can't I understand performance based Christianity very well Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: and have been wrapped up in that, even though, my doctrine that I hold to is, saved by grace. but my life was living out in performance Timothy Allen: Yes. Michael Chestnut: rather than faith and grace. Right. And So for me, now on the other side of this, I can I I see the power of it. But also, his story can resonate so much with other men's life, us not getting first off what we deserve, the grace of God, because man, I d I I deserve so much more than what what I was given. but like you said Owning the failure, Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: only then I really feel like God, like for me, for that 15 years, part of it was me owning my own failure. And the enemy, when you keep things in quiet and silence and secrecy, the enemy owns you. But when you can release it and say, Okay, here, this is where I was, this is what I did. God, I need you to redeem all the stuff that I did. and I'm gonna tell you, how that prayer was? Holy Spirit, please. I didn't even know how to pray anymore. And Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: all I c I remember that verse where it said, the Holy Spirit intercedes for you. And I was so far from God, I was like, God, I don't even know how to pray. And I just was, Holy Spirit, please. And he heard me. And that's that was where. the restoration started happening for me I you wrote a book before the fall. I'd kind of like to talk about that because how do we help men before they get to that that place? Maybe someone listening, they're they're in the midst of an addiction, a recovery, a bad divorce. through our own failures and everything, but God does accept us where we're at. I always heard that too. And Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: The I think the hardest part was for me getting to where God could work with me and start molding me because I I kept putting my hands in the way of God. So any advice, any any directions on that? Timothy Allen: Sure. So I I wrote the book from the standpoint of pride because what I what I saw and continue to see, it's not necessarily the sins that we get caught up in that bring us down, but it's the pride of not being willing to let somebody know that you're in trouble. The scriptures, the scriptures say. That pride goes before a fall. And it's absolute, it's absolutely true. Normally, so so the the genesis of the book, I think I had at some point in my life saw another prominent preacher who was on television who was caught up in a scandal. And, once your scandal is out there and they begin to look at your life, what they normally discover is that this particular thing has been going on for years. It this didn't just start, it's been going on for years. And if something had happened years ago, we could have we could have avoided getting here. That's the that was the premise behind the book. So the book says it has a a bunch of different scenarios that are in it. And my hope was if you see yourself in one of these scenarios, let's not get further down the road to where this eventually ends. Let's stop it, let's stop it now. Before you actually have that fall, because they all end in a fall. That's where they end in a fall. So let's let's stop it before it ends there. The best example that I can give, and I give this one all the time. Remember when the disciples were on the boat at night and Jesus is coming to them walking on the water. It's late at night. And they see him at a distance. They think he's a ghost. He tells them, Don't be afraid, it's me. So Peter says, Well, Lord, if it's you, let me come to you on the water. Now Even though this is not in the text, human nature being what it is, when Peter said that he was going to go out there on the water, somewhere I just believe that some of those other men said, You're crazy to do that. We're not even sure Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Timothy Allen: if that's Jesus, and you're gonna and you're gonna try to step out there on the water. And and something along the lines of, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just saying I wouldn't do it if it was me. I wouldn't do it. Okay, Peter decides to step out of the boat. He's walking on the water, doing well. Bible says that he looks around and sees where he is, sees the waves, and he begins to sink. Now comes the now comes the issue. If I cry out as I'm sinking, the people on the boat who told me not to do it are gonna know I'm in trouble. Because there's no way I'm gonna be able to cry out and they don't hear me. They're gonna know I'm in I'm in trouble. Now, pride says you can't let them know that you're in trouble. Michael Chestnut: Right. Timothy Allen: Right? You can't let them know that you're in trouble. So you don't say anything. But what? If you don't say anything, you drown. Now, fortunately, Peter didn't have that kind of pride. He cried out to the Lord and the Lord and the Lord lifted him up. But too often we are that man who's sinking, who knows we're sinking, who knows we need to cry out, but we're more concerned about what they're gonna say if they find out I'm in trouble. We're more Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Timothy Allen: concerned about what they're gonna say if they find out I'm addicted. We're more concerned about what they're gonna say if they find out that we're that we're caught up in whatever. Because as Christians, we're supposed to wear this mask where everything is perfect and everything is going well. And you've been in church for years and you teach Sunday school. You can't be, you can't be the Sunday school teacher and addicted to something. How does that even work? That's in that's impossible. So pride says, don't say anything. And eventually you fall. And eventually you fall. That's what that's what happens. And so what I try to teach men is that you can't be that proud. You can't be that proud. Being that proud will cost you. And at the end of the day, guess what? When you eventually fall, the very thing you were too proud to admit, now everybody knows. Right? The very thing Michael Chestnut: Yes. Timothy Allen: you're too proud to admit now, everybody knows, everybody knows it anyway. Wouldn't it have been better to admit it earlier and get help than fall? And have the whole world know what's going on. So, so it's that pride that I try to get people to understand and to recognize. we focus on the sin itself. And don't get me wrong, we should be taking steps to address our sin, but it's not the sin itself that's gonna bring you down. It's the pride that's eventually gonna bring is that's gonna bring you low. And that was that was the premise of the book. Michael Chestnut: Yeah, because there's no sin, common common demand that God can't help us with. But the problem is, I I totally agree, is is the pride and and the fault because you're gonna fall and either you can catch it and say, I need help and reveal it to this to a brother that can help you, or the sin itself, it's going to reveal itself. And when it does, it's going to take you down as as far down as it will it can, because that's its goal. he seeks about like a a roaring lion to destroy us. And so I one of the biggest things that since that that I've learned is the importance of the men in my life. Having strong, godly men in my life who I sharpen iron with and Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: that I can go to in the moments when I feel the enemy trying to get into my life and be vulnerable. Put away the pride, sit down and be vulnerable and say, Man, I I'm going through this. I just this has been recently for me. I I battle with anxiety and depression. The enemy really got me and got me isolating, right? And When that happens, what what happens is it happens slowly over time, how the enemy does it and keeps you from sometimes acknowledging and seeing that this is where you're headed, right? But luckily for me, I I want to say my past experience helped me to see you're not going in the right place. You're not present for your wife. You're not in the scriptures like you need to be. You're you're just getting away from the things that you have fought so hard to be intentional about. And so what I did, I had two brothers that I went to, and the most humbling thing in my life was to sit there and tell them where I was, because in my mind. This is catastrophic. This is huge, right? And they're like, is that what you were going to tell us? they're like, listen, we can we can deal with this, And man, they they helped me because they taught me, my one friend taught me this. He said, the enemy wants to get us away from the fold because we're easier to take off, to pick off when we're away from the fold. Timothy Allen: So Michael Chestnut: And so we we need to surround ourselves with that. And so that was one of the most important lessons. I'm glad that I was able to learn. But I have to tell you, no matter what I've learned, I have to practice it daily because to think that I'll I can't go back to that is is being blind and being prideful. Being prideful. But tell me about the slow drift because I think that's probably part of what I was talking about there is sometimes men get in these things before they even realize they're in trouble. Timothy Allen: Well, I I take a I I take a note here from my from my friend who was in the Navy. Okay. And in the and in the Navy, they they give directions in terms of, set your set your heading for, 270. Okay. And I set my heading for 270. Now, if I accidentally didn't set it for 270, Let's say I set it for 271. Right away, I'm not going to notice that I'm off course. But over time, because I'm not set for 270, I'm set for 271. There's gonna be a big, there's gonna be a big difference in where I arrive. And I think the the slow drift comes because initially, as a man, I think I'm at 270. Because Because 271 initially looks a lot like 270. Michael Chestnut: Does. Timothy Allen: Right exactly. And it's only and it's only when I've traveled a while before I realized that I'm actually at 271. So the so the thing is, what do you do to regularly check that you're at 270? That's the thing. That's the thing. Okay. Because I sometimes I think we we are we think we're like an oven. I put the oven on three fifty and I walk away from it. and the oven stays and the oven stays at three fifty. Okay, but on the but on the ship, I may have put it at two seven but let's say I ran into some choppy water. Okay. Now, the choppy water that I ran in, can impact the direction that I'm going in. If I don't check after I've been in this choppy water, I'll still be thinking I'm at 270 and I'm not. I'm actually at something, I'm actually at something else. So there has to be some sort of checks in our in our lifetime that make that we have to make sure that I'm actually on that heading. Now A a good way to know, if I have other if I have other ships in the flotilla that are traveling at 270, okay, Michael Chestnut: Right. Timothy Allen: right? I can I can kind of sort of see, if we all set for 270 and I notice all of the other ships seem to be going in a particular direction, but my course seems to be a little bit different. maybe it's not them, maybe it's me. I I think that's how the slow drift starts. I think I think we set the dial at where it's supposed to be. But then things happen in life that sort of get us off track. And I'm not talking about a big, not not not something that's big and glaring. It's something that's small enough that initially it still looks like 270. And it's only when we traveled that course for a while that we realize that we've been drifting and we didn't know that we and we didn't know that we were. And I I think that's one of the ways that it happened. Michael Chestnut: Well, and I think too, it is common sometimes for men to want a coast. Timothy Allen: absolutely. Michael Chestnut: I mean and and sp especially that comes from my younger years, right? My younger years, man, I I didn't need to prepare for anything. I could I could do things on the fly and I was good on my feet and stuff. But the problem is I was hitting waters that needed precision in it. And me coasting just got me further away. But then when I've got myself set with other people, other men who are not really worried about their coasting too. Then guess what? None of us know we're off course. And so I I learned that who I surrounded myself was so important. Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: So important to do that. But then I had to to be willing to to swallow that pride and and then be one of the the things I learned through it through a mentor of mine that helped me through this thing was putting together a stra a strategy Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: and not coasting, not flying by deceit. And that there were there are things in your life that are non-negotiable. Non-negotiable things. Because when you give just one time into that non-negotiable, then it starts again. And then down maybe not, maybe Be another year, you do another non negotiable and it it and it goes. The enemy s slowly does that on purpose. He's in for the long haul to to get me down. And then you're in that secret. Timothy Allen: Sure. And and and what and one of the things you said that you mentioned the enemy. One of the reasons why we often don't under don't notice what the enemy is doing is be is because of our expectations. So we're expecting the enemy to come with this very strong pull. That I can sense. And because I sense that I'm being pulled in a strong way, I pull back against it. That's not what he does. He comes with a slow pull that you didn't even notice. But enough slow pulls will pull you so far from the mark that you won't even realize how you got where you are. That's how that's how it happens. So you got nudged, but you didn't notice the nut, you didn't notice the nudge. Then you got nudged again. You didn't notice that nudge. So I so I think sometimes our expectations and how the enemy operates. We're expecting the the big grand assault, but your but your point is well taken. The enemy says this is a long-term strategy. I'll do this over, I'll do this over time. So long as you arrive at the place that I'm trying to get you at. So I don't care if it takes five years or 15. I'm just trying to get you. I'm just trying to get you there. That's the only thing that I'm concerned with. Michael Chestnut: Well, and also in that what I found out was in that five and fifteen years of getting to that failure, I've got all these lies going in my head and they've been entertained now. And now Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: the further out I get the l I I'm now having a hard time dis distinguishing between what is truth and what is not. Timothy Allen: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: And I am now in chaos. And so I I tell you I'm very I the the r the law of you are the sum of the five people you hang out with, I take very serious. I want strong men in my my life. And I I have different men for different things. And I I've got one, I mean, you don't ask him something if you don't want the truth. It it it can it can hurt sometimes, but but I love that because I learned I need that man. I need that man that's not going to sugarcoat something and He's gonna come and say, Hey, I've noticed it looks like you might be off course. And there's sometimes I can look down and go, man, you you you are right. Or there's sometimes I can look down, no, I'm set, but I'm still so thankful for that man because he's giving me that perspective of keeping yourself in check. And there is Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: nothing wrong with that. A lot of times we want to get offended when a brother comes to us and s and asks us, Are you okay? And it's like, What of course I'm okay. Why would you what why would I get mad at that? Timothy Allen: Yeah. When you get offended it's usually an indication to the brother that you're not okay. Michael Chestnut: Yes, because the true colors are coming out, aren't they? because you're right. You you don't you don't get offended over a lie or I and and also I know their heart. I know their heart. and there's been times where man, it stung a little bit and I've I got mad and I had to sit there and then I had to think, man, that that man came to me in love. And there's some truth. Timothy Allen: But see, you you you've gotta have you've gotta have men in your life that aren't intimidated by the fact that you may get angry. because a real because a real friend, knows that you're gonna get mad, but they're not going anywhere. It's like I'll still be here tomorrow. You can get upset, but Michael Chestnut: Right. Timothy Allen: I'm still gonna I'm still gonna be here tomorrow. And if you're still not doing what you need to do, the answer is the the answer is the same, I liken it to Jeremiah. The king didn't like Jeremiah's message, so he threw him in a sister. Jeremiah had been saying you're going into captivity. So they threw Jeremiah in an abandoned well, left him in there for a period of time, thought it was funny. They pull him out of the well. They go back to the king. It's like so what's up, Jeremiah? what what kind of message do you have for me today? Jeremiah's like, you're going into captivity. It's like, did you think that the well was gonna change the message? You're going into captivity. Michael Chestnut: Ha ha ha. Timothy Allen: It's like it's the same it's the same message as it was yesterday. It's the same Michael Chestnut: Yep. Timothy Allen: thing. And you and you have to have men, men that are like that in your life that, you did the wrong you did the wrong thing or you're heading in the wrong direction. I told you you got mad, you come back tomorrow, if you're still going in the wrong direction, I'm still gonna tell you you're going in the wrong you're going in the wrong direction. It hasn't the message hasn't changed. So you there is a there is a another example. Remember the man who was the Bible says that he had palsy, paralysis, and they brought him to Jesus, four men were carrying him. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Timothy Allen: I I love I love that story because I imagine, I imagine in my mind, okay, suppose suppose the four men as they were carrying their friend, suppose he was a complainer the whole way. So so as they're carrying him, he's saying things like why do we have to leave at this time of the day? it's hot outside. We could have left at a cooler time. Or, as they're carrying him down those roads, maybe they they s they hit somebody stepped on a rock and they nearly, tipped the thing over that he's on. And it's like, you, you, you, you almost dropped me off of this thing. You guys should be careful. And and I teach men that sometimes when you're trying to get someone close to Christ, there's a lot that you have to put up with along the way. But but when you're convinced that Christ can help them with their problem, you're willing to put up with it because of that confidence that you have that if I can get you close enough to Jesus, he's gonna solve your problem. And I'm so convinced that I and some other men are gonna carry you for a period of time until we get there. And we're gonna ignore the nonsense that you're talking, we're gonna ignore the complaining that you're that you're giving, because it's important to us that we get you there. You don't want men who when you get angry, as you said in your example, you don't want men where if you get angry, they say, what? If you see it that way, get yourself to Jesus. And they put you down on the map. Get yourself, get yourself. Michael Chestnut: Right. Timothy Allen: Those aren't the men that those aren't the men that you want. Right? You want the you want the men that are gonna they're gonna tolerate you until they get you until they get you there. And and and those men, those men are are are are rare to find. they're they're they're hidden gems. But I but I tell people. that if you've ever had that kind of man in your life who helped you in that manner, be that for somebody else. Be the same thing for be the same thing for somebody else, and help and help them like somebody helped you. Michael Chestnut: and I think that was part of my problem was I had grown up, I had never seen anyone restored from where I where I was. I never saw it. and I'm not trying to, criticize the people from my past and and things like that. That's not what this is about. But I I only know what I know. And Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: what I saw was so in the midst of my dynamic had my ear saying, Man, you go it there were so many times I wanted to go to someone and say, I need help. But the enemy was telling me, you do. remember all those conversations where men were gossiping about another man who fell. And I mean, basically casting stones, right? And that's what I saw. So I I I knew I couldn't do that. And then after my fall, and mine was with lust and pornography and things like that. And when that when it finally world did fall apart and the world came down, All those men, all those people, they were gone. They were they were nowhere in sight. And I I'm kind of thankful for that for today because God took that moment to bring other people into my life. And I I went from Indiana and Illinois to Florida and I met this man named Mike Collins who never met me four hours after I got off the plane. with nothing, took me to Wendy's, sat down, and I just regurgitated to him what I had never told anyone in my life. And for the first time I saw a man who did not judge me, but walked with me. And that man is a the grace that man had because man, he put up with so much from me. you talk about a whiner, a crybaby, All those things. There's had to been times that he would, I mean, I'm so thankful he didn't say, This is this is too much. This is you're too much. And let you go. But because of that, now I'm getting to walk that with other men. And I told him I I I just turned 60 and I had a my he was at my birthday party and I I honored him and I said, what I never real realized in our journey was how many. Michael Chestnut, God was gonna send me. And Timothy Allen: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: I have to sit there and remember, this man had grace for you, so you better have grace for this man. God's working. Timothy Allen: Sure. Absolutely. it's it it's it's sort of hard, not to not to be to someone else what somebody what somebody was to you. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Timothy Allen: it's difficult, it's difficult not to be that way because you understand it from both standpoints. You understand it, being the person who needed help, but then you also understand it from what you finally got an opportunity to see in that gentleman. that it is possible. And once you recognize how beneficial it was to you, you also recognize how beneficial it can be to somebody else. And now it's my and now it's my turn. I I I think that, what we need in the church more of are are more men who say, I it it's my it's my turn. I I think sometimes we we are that man who was on the mat carried by four men. And then there's another guy who needs to be carried, but you won't take up an end. How can you not take up an end when they carried you? When four men carried you, I would think that you would want to be the first person to volunteer to carry somebody else because what it feels like to be on the mat. But but sadly, many times, once I've gotten myself together, helping to get somebody else together. is less of a prior is less of a priority. And that's a sad that's a sad thing. Michael Chestnut: Right. I I've had to learn That it's not my job to fix them. It's my job to walk with them Timothy Allen: Yep. Right. Michael Chestnut: and and to carry. And I've realized that in the journey, some men are more comfortable on the mat than they are actually walking and and doing the work, and to me, I want to grow. And for me, one of the prayers after I started praying, Holy Spirit, please. And I could start praying again. And I'm going to tell you, it took almost a year. it took almost a year to really because I was learning a whole new God. Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: And I was fighting this addiction. And I I had to start praying, God, make your desires mine. Make your desires mine. And what I'm so thankful is that today God has done that because my desire is to. I I love helping other men who are in the thick of it. Men who when the rest of the world will turn their back on them, or not the world, the church, will turn their back on them. I can be that Mike Collins for them that he was for me. And it's what, to me, what an honor it is then when you can see that man's life turn around. And let me tell you, it when you get involved in that. You gotta you gotta be willing to be involved for the long hike. Because sometimes carrying that mat maybe a couple miles. Timothy Allen: Yep. Michael Chestnut: And are you willing to do it? And there's gonna be times where you're gonna have to fight not wanting to quit. And that's where I think the other three men in the in the group help you too, because we encourage one another that this man's worth it. That God loves this man. Let's keep moving. But then ultimately to the hardest part. is for me is not to chase someone. And that's hard because I want there's there's guys in my life right now I want to go chase and say, come on. But God's like, No, they're they're not ready yet. that's my job to chase them. Timothy Allen: Yeah, I learned I learned that one. I I I want to say, you talked you talked about when someone is on the mat, being willing to carry them, you may have to carry them for miles. another thing that's important is, as men, don't don't tell me to get on the mat if your intention is not to carry me all the way there. That's unfair. I I got on the mat. At your urging, because you told me that you would bring me there. So if I get on the mat and then you don't bring me there, I kind of sort of feel like I'm worse off now than I was before because I had hope that you guys would get me there and then something happened and you didn't and you didn't. So you're so you're right when you when you say that. if if you really want to see another brother be delivered, you need to make sure that that's the thing that you do. Here here at my church, one of the things that we that we have, you mentioned gossip in your past. It's so and it's so funny. So this is how you this is how you can separate out, the men who are really willing to help versus those who are just saying things. So we have a thing here at the church. If you're going to point out the flaw in one of in your brother, what what you are also doing is you're volunteering to help him with it. Because If you're not willing to help him with it, then we don't want to hear your comment. Michael Chestnut: I love that. Timothy Allen: So you can imagine there aren't many people saying many things because the rule Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Timothy Allen: is if you brought it up, then you're willing to help him with it. Otherwise, don't say don't say anything, right? But but it immediately, it immediately shows you the commitment that's there. Why just point out the flaw that the brother probably is already aware of? If you're not gonna help him, if you're not gonna help him with it. No, don't just point it out. be also willing to help. See, that's why I'm here, to help help you become the man that I know that God wants you to be. Michael Chestnut: Yeah, because what is at the end of it is the restoration. And imagine Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: what those four men felt when they saw God heal that man and Timothy Allen: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: him get up and run out of there. Timothy Allen: Exactly. Michael Chestnut: and and I've got now to be that guy to watch those victories. And now I know I it it inspires me to do more because I'm gonna tell you what I love is when I can see God. Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: And I can see God in the fruit of the things He is doing. Because a pastor in my fall told me, looked at me, and said, Well, God has done with you. That was the encouragement I got. Timothy Allen: Wow. Michael Chestnut: And that probably did more harm to me than anything else. I became suicidal from that moment. Because the God of the universe, this man that I respected, who's a pastor, told me God's God is done with me. But now, God, God's telling me that's why it's so important. That you have the men I tell you to have in your Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: life and you to pray and ask me for guidance in who that is. Because if you get the wrong guy carrying your mat, they're gonna leave you halfway there. You know? Timothy Allen: Sure. Yep. Absolute absolut absolutely. Michael Chestnut: And if you're carrying someone else with them, you may get stuck carrying the whole thing by yourself to get there. Timothy Allen: Well, I I I I think one thing also that that story should teach us is that, a shared load is easier to bear. Sometimes we Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Timothy Allen: take on we take on more than we should. This doesn't just have to be your responsibility. There are other people that are here that can help shoulder that can help shoulder this responsibility. our goal our goal is to get our brother there. you don't have to get him there on your own, get some other people. to help you, it's easier to get him there that that way. Men have that camaraderie and, we co op we we cooperate together. I'll never forget years ago, there was an example that that God had given me. I live in I live in the New England area. And, I said, imagine if you will, there were a hundred men, and God said, I have an assignment for you in Providence, Rhode Island, and you're starting in Boston, Massachusetts. So Providence is to the south of Boston. So a hundred men get on the highway and they start walking the Providence. and as they walking the Providence, maybe they've maybe they've walked 10 miles. And after 10 miles, 10 of those men say, what? I I I thought I was gonna be able to make it, I can't do it. I I I just can't, I just can't do it. They stop by the side of the road, they say that they can't. But what's interesting? 10 men have no strength, but 90 men do. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Timothy Allen: So what happens if the 90 men pick up the 10 and we keep moving? Now, after we walk for a while, those 10 say, what, I've got my strength back, put me down. As soon as we put those 10 men down, another 10 men are tired. We do the same thing. And what we discover is that if we work together, all hundred of us can go to providence. Nobody has to get left behind because Michael Chestnut: yeah. Mm. Timothy Allen: we're never all weak at the same time. There are always some that are strong and some that are weak. But if we lean on each other at different times, we can all we can all get the providence. And I think that's the the understanding that we have to have. If you're weak now, you're gonna lean on me, and my strength is gonna get me and you together. But I understand that one day when I'm weak, the only reason I won't fall is because you leaned on me one day, and now you have strength. what would happen to me in the future. Had I not helped you. if I don't help you, then there's no one around in the future to help me when I need it. So helping you potentially also helps helps me because I don't know what state I'm gonna be in in the future. But I do know this, if if I don't do anything, I potentially will have no one that I can lean on in the future. Michael Chestnut: Wow. Amen. Because I that's the one thing I'm I'm grateful for now is because like I told you before, I only knew what I n what I knew, right? Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: And and so that's what I grew up knowing. And now I am in a church where we have those hundred men walking together. We ha our one of some of the most important groups in our church are the men's groups that we Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: have and being a part of those because You don't wait until the the hardship comes to try and build those, forge those those friendships. Forge them now. Forge them now so that when you do need them, you guys are working together as a team. And got God can use the strength so much better. And so I am thankful for that now because now I've got to show my son something different than what I was shown when I was young. And for God, I'm so grateful that. That meaning of iron sharpens iron has been one of the most meaningful things God has done in my restoration than anything else. And Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: it's a humbling thing, but it's also, man, it's it's a gift. It's a gift. So well, Pastor, thank you for being here today with us and for sharing all this with us. Gave us some great insight on on. actually a lot of the things we've been diving into this past month or two on the intentional guy. And so I want to thank you for being here. But before we go, I'd love for you to tell us about your book. Where can they get it? And and more information on that. Timothy Allen: So the book is called Before the Fall. You can actually get it on Amazon. If you go to if you go to Amazon, type in before the fall, or use my name Timothy Allen, the book will the book will come up. I would appreciate the support of anybody that wants to go. they can also go to my website, Romans 10 9, and it's in the way that you type it, the word Romans, the number 10, and then the word nine. So Romans 109. go to my website, you can get the book there. you can also subscribe. I have courses, I have daily devotionals. I I just I just put things there that are designed to encourage and and uplift people and also challenge them. I love to see people learn through being challenged. So go visit me at my website, they can contact me there or get the or get the book there as well. So I just love to meet people. I love doing things like this, I'm a I'm a people person, I love to meet individuals, I love to talk. So for me This has been a great experience. Michael Chestnut: Well, thank you so much for being on on here. I I was never a reader, never read a book, maybe one book, something whatever school made me do. And Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: one of the one of the intentional things that I set before me was reading. And so I I'm now, regular reading, but I found out too. I love reading books like what you have there, something that is going to Help me as a man to get Timothy Allen: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: to my goals. And and not that, there's people who love to read my wife's a fiction reader. She loves to read fictional books and stuff. I I'm that's just not me. I don't want to waste my time on on fiction. Timothy Allen: Ha ha ha Michael Chestnut: I I I've got enough fiction in my life. I I you know, I want some real Timothy Allen: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: stuff. Timothy Allen: Says Honey, I'm Michael Chestnut: So so Timothy Allen: not mad at you but I'm not reading a fiction book. I'm just not gonna Michael Chestnut: No, no, no, not at all. I'll get the two mixed up and then I'm really in a bind, So, but thank you again for being here. We'll make sure that we have all those links in our description. And to my listeners, till next time, just keep being intentional. We'll see you next time.