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KILLER THRILLER DOCU: The Idaho Murders Were Worse Than You Think · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your
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Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan. Hi, you guys, welcome back to Killer
0:17
Speaker 1: Thriller DOCU edition. So in November of twenty twenty two,
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Speaker 1: for your, University of Idaho students were brutally murdered in
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Speaker 1: a crime that shocked the nation and quickly became one
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Speaker 1: of the most heavily followed investigations in recent memory. As
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Speaker 1: the search for answers unfolded, millions of people became invested
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Speaker 1: in every development, from the investigation itself to the endless
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Speaker 1: speculations online. I know that I did this. One was
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Speaker 1: really brutal in real time and I could not stop
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Speaker 1: thinking about it. But now Netflix's The Idaho Murders The
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Speaker 1: College Nightmare takes a different approach, and rather than focusing
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Speaker 1: on internet theories or turning the tragedy into a who'd
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Speaker 1: done it, the documentary centers on the lives that were lost,
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Speaker 1: the families forever changed, and the real impact of a
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Speaker 1: case that captivated the world. So today we are joined
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Speaker 1: by the legendary documentary filmmaker Joe Berlinger, whose work has
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Speaker 1: helped define the modern true crime genre. From Paradise Loss
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Speaker 1: to conversations with a killer. These are huge ones, you guys.
1:17
Speaker 1: This guy's is huge. He's spent decades exploring the complex
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Speaker 1: intersection of crime, justice, media, and humanity. And in this conversation,
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Speaker 1: we'll talk about the responsibility of telling stories like this
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Speaker 1: and the challenge of documenting an active case that unfolded
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Speaker 1: in the public eye, and why keeping the victims at
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Speaker 1: the center of the story mattered more than anything else.
1:38
Speaker 1: And if you haven't watched it, that is what is
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Speaker 1: really beautiful about this is that you really do get
1:41
Speaker 1: a chance to get to know the victims. So let's
1:45
Speaker 1: bring in Joe Berlinger.
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Speaker 2: Hello, Joe, Hey, nice to see you. How are you.
1:50
Speaker 1: It's really an honor to see you. I am well.
1:54
Speaker 1: I hope that you are as well, and I know
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Speaker 1: your time is probably very limited. Over eighteen million downloads?
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Speaker 1: Are how many? How many?
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Speaker 2: It's weird how they calculate it, but it's it's big.
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Speaker 2: It's like eighteen million views, you know. I think my
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Speaker 2: show for them, which also was in the number one.
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Speaker 1: Spot, Jomping a.
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Speaker 2: Yes, had about seven or eight million views by this time,
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Speaker 2: so this is six This is eighteen million views.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, then I'm thinking I'm probably not your only podcast,
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Speaker 1: so I am, hey, I'm jumping in.
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Speaker 2: But you're the podcast for today, so I take each
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Speaker 2: each one with great seriousness.
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Speaker 1: I appreciate that. So I have so many questions for you.
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Speaker 1: I I'm going to start this out though, asking you
2:40
Speaker 1: if there is something that you haven't been asked so far,
2:44
Speaker 1: and that's really just making my job very easy. Something
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Speaker 1: that you want to say about the Idaho murders no
2:49
Speaker 1: one's ever asked. Is there anything that you feel like
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Speaker 1: you haven't covered that we can get an exclusive on.
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Speaker 2: I wish I could come up with something, but you know,
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Speaker 2: I'm an open book, and you know I have to.
3:00
Speaker 2: I've talked about things on the show before.
3:02
Speaker 1: But okay, okay, well then you're gonna have to put
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Speaker 1: up with my questions that I'm sure are repeats.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's been a four year journey. Yeah, you know,
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Speaker 2: I guess you know. The most important thing to say
3:15
Speaker 2: is that you know, we are not the first documentary
3:19
Speaker 2: to come out either have been multiple docs on the subject,
3:24
Speaker 2: but we were amongst the first people there. And because
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Speaker 2: there's so much rumor and innuendo and speculation and blaming
3:33
Speaker 2: the roommates and all sorts of terrible things are being
3:35
Speaker 2: said to people, you know, all the armchair sleuths out there.
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Speaker 2: It was very, very important to us to not rush
3:43
Speaker 2: out a show until we we were prepared to wait
3:46
Speaker 2: until the trial was over. Obviously it was a plea deal,
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Speaker 2: but we felt the best way to honor the victims.
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Speaker 2: This is a very victim focused show. The best way
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Speaker 2: to honor the victims was to tell the complete story
3:59
Speaker 2: and not try to you know, rush a production out
4:02
Speaker 2: just to be part of the you know, there's one
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Speaker 2: thing about breaking news. You know, ongoing news coverage is
4:08
Speaker 2: certainly appropriate, but you know, we didn't want to rush
4:11
Speaker 2: our documentary out to be first. We wanted to take
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Speaker 2: our time, be patient, and tell the complete and total story,
4:22
Speaker 2: which I think is what makes ours unique because the
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Speaker 2: other docs that came out was were before the gag. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: there was before the evidence was available. So you know, again,
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Speaker 2: there's been so many things said, so many theories pursued,
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Speaker 2: none of which well not none of which, some of
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Speaker 2: which are just completely false. That we wanted to, you know,
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Speaker 2: honor the victims by being by being complete.
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Speaker 1: Not being right. And you certainly did, and I am
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Speaker 1: interested to know. You know, I watch a lot of
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Speaker 1: true crime and true crime documentaries, and a lot of
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Speaker 1: them try to get into the psychology behind the murderer,
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Speaker 1: the rapists, the but this was really more, I think,
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Speaker 1: focused on the victim, on the victims, and in a
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Speaker 1: way it was a it was very refreshing for me
5:13
Speaker 1: in the sense that you know, looking at Brian, I
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Speaker 1: just there was nothing in his eyes. It was just
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Speaker 1: this deadness, and what he did was so cold blooded.
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Speaker 1: And sometimes I do feel like, maybe, you know, the
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Speaker 1: perpetrators of these crimes don't deserve our thoughtful investigation of
5:34
Speaker 1: their past. What do you think?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, I've done a lot of true crime.
5:39
Speaker 2: And by the way, true crime is a phrase that
5:40
Speaker 2: I hate. It's associated with me. You know, I'm considered
5:44
Speaker 2: a true crime bioneer. I like the pioneer part, but
5:47
Speaker 2: the true crime phraseology, you know, associated with my work.
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Speaker 2: You know, even though I understand.
5:53
Speaker 1: Why documentary just documentary filmmaker.
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Speaker 2: I mean, you can say true crime, everyone does. I'm
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Speaker 2: just saying, you know, there is a lot of irresponsible
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Speaker 2: true crime that doesn't take the victims into account. There's
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Speaker 2: a lot of consumption of true crime where people are
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Speaker 2: just like in it for the story, and you know,
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Speaker 2: you always have to remember, this is the worst day
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Speaker 2: in somebody's life, in a family's life. And you know,
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Speaker 2: I only want to tell a story if you can
6:19
Speaker 2: move the needle forward on an investigation, or you can
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Speaker 2: make some social justice difference, or in this instance, to
6:26
Speaker 2: really focus on the victims. We thought that was very important. Look,
6:31
Speaker 2: I've made shows that have focused on the killer, but
6:35
Speaker 2: when I do those kinds of shows, it's often to
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Speaker 2: identify new victims of a serial killer or to get
6:41
Speaker 2: laws changed. So yeah, So the phrase true crime it
6:46
Speaker 2: has this baggage of like wallowing in the misery of
6:49
Speaker 2: others just to tell a story. And I like to
6:52
Speaker 2: choose my subjects where I think I can needle from
6:54
Speaker 2: a social justice standpoint. Yes, but as you said, we
6:59
Speaker 2: made a very conscious decision to be very victim focused
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Speaker 2: here and really bring the kids, you know, the kids
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Speaker 2: to life in part because you know this story. I've
7:12
Speaker 2: done a lot of stories where I care about the subject,
7:14
Speaker 2: but it just doesn't hit you the way this.
7:16
Speaker 1: One hits do you kids?
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Speaker 2: I do, And that's that's what you know. I have
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Speaker 2: two beautiful, beautiful daughters. And when this happened in October, no, sorry,
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Speaker 2: November of twenty two, that was right around the time
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Speaker 2: I had one daughter graduating from undergraduate and I had
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Speaker 2: another daughter graduating from grad school. They both had incredibly positive,
7:39
Speaker 2: wonderful college experiences, you know, being a parent, you know,
7:44
Speaker 2: my wife and I were very involved in their lives
7:47
Speaker 2: as college students, and you know, it's such a wonderful
7:50
Speaker 2: time of life and such a time of like, you know,
7:52
Speaker 2: you're just coming into your own. And so when I
7:55
Speaker 2: read about this, this senseless, tragic murder from this psychopath.
8:01
Speaker 2: What we didn't know is a psychopath at first, but
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Speaker 2: you know, just these senseless killings just really hit home
8:06
Speaker 2: for me. So, you know, soon we think about it.
8:09
Speaker 2: We sent a crew out to see what we could
8:11
Speaker 2: start finding and started building relationships. But again, we didn't
8:15
Speaker 2: want to rush something out. We wanted to tell the
8:18
Speaker 2: complete story, you know, because.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing.
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Speaker 2: You know. On the one hand, there's true crime podcasts,
8:24
Speaker 2: there's I'm making tons of true crime shows. True crime
8:26
Speaker 2: is so popular, but I think sometimes people go down
8:30
Speaker 2: these rabbit holes and speculate on theories and call people
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Speaker 2: out and say hurtful things, like they're like their characters
8:41
Speaker 2: in a fictional story of these are real people.
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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more.
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Speaker 2: I find it, you know. I mean, it's my own fault.
8:48
Speaker 2: I'm one of the guys who helped make true crime
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Speaker 2: very popular. I've been doing this for, you know, a
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Speaker 2: long time.
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Speaker 1: I don't think that makes it your fault. I think
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Speaker 1: that it's you know, humans react to different things in
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Speaker 1: different ways. Your intentions sounds like your intentions have been
9:02
Speaker 1: quite noble. But I yes, I do think that. I
9:05
Speaker 1: was actually speaking with Elisa Donovan yesterday we shared this podcast,
9:09
Speaker 1: and she was very excited for me to meet you,
9:11
Speaker 1: by the way, but we were talking about what is
9:15
Speaker 1: you know, behind the fascination and I wait, let me
9:18
Speaker 1: just say something. I think I'm a little excited to
9:20
Speaker 1: be talking to you. So I'm sort of skipping all
9:22
Speaker 1: over the place, forgive me, But I do want to
9:25
Speaker 1: say that I am also the mother who had a
9:30
Speaker 1: daughter her senior year of college when this happened. So
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Speaker 1: and I'm not positive that that's the reason. I mean,
9:38
Speaker 1: these four beautiful young people, I don't mean to imply
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Speaker 1: that people without children, you know, that it didn't they
9:45
Speaker 1: didn't register it, just like a parent would. But I
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Speaker 1: just personally for me, and I was wondering for you.
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Speaker 1: It scared me. It just completely freaked me out.
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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, no, it really hit home for me.
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Speaker 1: Me too, me too. So. But I guess I'm wondering
9:59
Speaker 1: because we talk about this yesterday, you know, people watching,
10:04
Speaker 1: and we're not going to call it that anymore. We're
10:06
Speaker 1: just going to call it crime documentaries.
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Speaker 2: I just I just had no I.
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Speaker 1: Get it because it's it's about it being entertaining, and
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Speaker 1: that's what it is. It's like people say, oh my god,
10:17
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with true crime. Now these are real people
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Speaker 1: whose lives were destroyed and sometimes like the Idaho murders
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Speaker 1: in the most gruesome of ways. So it does feel
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Speaker 1: to me. I will, I'll blame you for this. It's however,
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Speaker 1: you know, you put this story together, made it fascinating
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Speaker 1: to watch, and I don't know, you know, I like
10:42
Speaker 1: when I watch crime documentaries. I like to to pull
10:46
Speaker 1: something positive out of it, for instance, family members of
10:50
Speaker 1: victims who then are able to be resilient enough to
10:54
Speaker 1: band together and create laws, you know, to help other,
10:57
Speaker 1: and or just watching the resilience of even the victims
11:04
Speaker 1: themselves and being able to somehow grow in some way
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Speaker 1: from their experience. So that's I love watching that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And in particular, you know, in this in
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Speaker 2: our series, you see how the family is, particularly the
11:21
Speaker 2: Gonzalez family, and particularly Olivia Gonzalez, the sister. Just you know,
11:26
Speaker 2: the way she dresses him down. I don't want to
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Speaker 2: spoil it, but the way she dresses him down at
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Speaker 2: the end of the show when they're giving victim impact
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Speaker 2: statements is just super powerful.
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Speaker 1: You know, I was. I was not the only one.
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Speaker 1: We talked about it yesterday, and I know that almost
11:39
Speaker 1: everybody you cannot feel that way about her. My question
11:42
Speaker 1: to you is, I'm watching that and I'm so impressed
11:46
Speaker 1: and sort of proud of her in this way, and
11:49
Speaker 1: yet at the same time, and I guess it doesn't
11:52
Speaker 1: really matter. She did that for her, But wondering if
11:55
Speaker 1: he was even listening, and I just I'm wondering what
11:58
Speaker 1: you think.
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Speaker 2: You know, who knows, I mean, somebody like him has
12:03
Speaker 2: no empathy. Somebody like him, you know, I mean classic
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Speaker 2: serial killer. You know, they think they're the smartest guy
12:13
Speaker 2: in the room. They want significance, you know, did it
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Speaker 2: hit him did it make him feel bad? Probably not
12:21
Speaker 2: as evidence, you know, as evidence by the fact that
12:25
Speaker 2: he recanted you know, his yeah recently you know, which
12:29
Speaker 2: I don't think was a you know, which to me
12:31
Speaker 2: is just another attention grab and probably I mean it
12:34
Speaker 2: probably sounds arrogant to say, but I think it had
12:36
Speaker 2: everything to do with the fact that our trailer dropped
12:39
Speaker 2: and then the next you know, for the show, and
12:41
Speaker 2: then the next day he made this this pronouncement. I
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Speaker 2: think he's just looking for attention.
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Speaker 1: Well guess what I think. Congratulations to you for giving
12:50
Speaker 1: him the finger. I'm good with that. You know. We
13:07
Speaker 1: talk also about people like Brian. Who are they and
13:12
Speaker 1: how do you distinguish someone like him that you don't
13:15
Speaker 1: want to necessarily delve into the sickness of his mind
13:18
Speaker 1: and maybe even his parents and his upbringing. To me,
13:22
Speaker 1: because I've now watched a few of these, there's sometimes
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Speaker 1: a difference, maybe it's subtle, between a psychopath like Brian.
13:29
Speaker 1: I feel like now I can almost and I'm sure
13:31
Speaker 1: that's that I can't but see it as opposed to
13:34
Speaker 1: someone like we were talking yesterday about I'm going to
13:37
Speaker 1: forget her name because you know, menopause, But the woman who. Recently,
13:42
Speaker 1: there's a film out about a woman who killed her
13:45
Speaker 1: three children during postpartum right, And so Lisa and I
13:49
Speaker 1: were talking about, you know, when does Lindsay Lindsay Clancy?
13:54
Speaker 1: What's the difference? And I was, I again, I was.
13:57
Speaker 1: I was pleased that we didn't. There wasn't a lot
14:00
Speaker 1: of focus on him, and there weren't any excuses for
14:03
Speaker 1: his behavior. On the other hand, Lindsey Clancy strangled her
14:06
Speaker 1: three babies with exercise ropes, and the defense is saying
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Speaker 1: it's it's the worst kind of PTSD, and she snapped.
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Speaker 2: No, I think we have to have room in our
14:18
Speaker 2: justice system for compassion for people who have mental illness.
14:22
Speaker 2: You know that? To me, I mean, on the one hand,
14:24
Speaker 2: you can argue that all devian acts our mental illness.
14:30
Speaker 2: But the difference there is, I mean, these children obviously
14:33
Speaker 2: meant something to her. I don't. I haven't done a
14:36
Speaker 2: deep dive in the case. I don't know much about
14:39
Speaker 2: it other than the headlines. But you know, a mother
14:42
Speaker 2: in postpartum depression killing her children to me is very
14:46
Speaker 2: different than me too. Somebody picking out you know, a
14:50
Speaker 2: serial killer picking out strange.
14:52
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, I.
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Speaker 2: Mean, you know, there's all there's a woman named Dorothy
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Speaker 2: Lewis who did research on the brains of psychopaths, and
15:03
Speaker 2: she believes, and I believe, that there's actually a physical
15:07
Speaker 2: part of the brain that is missing that allows you
15:11
Speaker 2: to have empathy. So I think these, you know, these
15:14
Speaker 2: are people who lack empathy, you know, and that's why
15:17
Speaker 2: they do their thing. A mother going through postpartum or
15:21
Speaker 2: somebody snapping, you know, under pressure or whatever. You know,
15:26
Speaker 2: there we do need room for compassion for those cases.
15:29
Speaker 1: Is that a slippery slope? Right? And when you're choosing
15:33
Speaker 1: what to work on, for instance, you know, maybe being
15:37
Speaker 1: a dad and having the kids, the eight your kids,
15:39
Speaker 1: the age of these victims, and you know, did that
15:44
Speaker 1: maybe personally give you less sympathy for the killer in this?
15:49
Speaker 1: You know, I'm I'm just trying to figure out for myself. Also,
15:53
Speaker 1: why is it so different for me when I watch
15:55
Speaker 1: a documentary and I can sort of see a background
15:59
Speaker 1: and and what happened to this person? You know? Is it?
16:03
Speaker 1: Is it nature or nurture? Yeah, and somebody like this.
16:08
Speaker 1: But I had just I have I had absolutely no
16:10
Speaker 1: sympathy for him. I wanted, you know, I don't know
16:14
Speaker 1: if I wanted the death penalty, I wanted him not
16:17
Speaker 1: to plead. I don't know, but I still now all
16:19
Speaker 1: I can feel is discussed, right, Yeah.
16:23
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, trying to find a reason
16:26
Speaker 2: why people do evil from their childhood is a slippery slope. Basically.
16:32
Speaker 2: You know, Ted Bundy actually had a very loving family.
16:36
Speaker 2: You know, allegedly he was shocked by the fact when
16:39
Speaker 2: he learned he was adopted, and that put him into like,
16:43
Speaker 2: you know, some kind of state of like you know,
16:47
Speaker 2: mental duress. But a lot of people find out they're adopted,
16:52
Speaker 2: become serial a lot.
16:53
Speaker 1: Of people are abused, a lot of people go through
16:56
Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of trauma.
16:57
Speaker 2: Honestly, one of the reasons I've been attracted to crime
17:01
Speaker 2: storytelling is to explore why people go bad because I
17:05
Speaker 2: had an abusive childhood. You know, my father beat the
17:08
Speaker 2: shit out of me, and his father beat the shit
17:10
Speaker 2: out of him, and I did not have a pleasant childhood.
17:13
Speaker 2: But I'm the most loving my kids will test. You know,
17:19
Speaker 2: I haven't laid a finger on my children ever. You know,
17:22
Speaker 2: I've had the same first.
17:23
Speaker 1: Wife or break the cycle baby.
17:26
Speaker 2: Thirty four years I prayed for girls, though I did
17:28
Speaker 2: pray for girls because you know, I was scared, because
17:31
Speaker 2: I wanted to break the cycle. You know. So I
17:33
Speaker 2: got two girls. I've never laid a finger on them.
17:36
Speaker 2: I've been nothing but a great dad and a great provider.
17:39
Speaker 2: And that's just the truth. And my wife would attest
17:42
Speaker 2: I've never laid a finger on her, you know. So,
17:45
Speaker 2: like I think trying to make excuses or find excuses
17:50
Speaker 2: from childhood. I think if people are going to do evil,
17:54
Speaker 2: they're going to do evil. You know.
17:55
Speaker 1: I mean what you're saying resonates with me. And I'm
17:58
Speaker 1: not trying to up you or wait me me, but
18:02
Speaker 1: same idea. I had an abusive childhood, different type of abuse, whatever,
18:07
Speaker 1: But you know, I have siblings, and not that the
18:11
Speaker 1: cycle has repeated itself. It really hasn't, I'm proud to say.
18:14
Speaker 1: But we all have stuff, thankfully I have. My shrink
18:18
Speaker 1: will agree with me that I didn't bring that really
18:22
Speaker 1: shitty stuff into our lives, same husband, miraculously all of that.
18:28
Speaker 1: So I agree with you. Is my point that I
18:30
Speaker 1: don't think that that's an excuse, right. A shitty childhood,
18:34
Speaker 1: a shitty upbringing. I just I'm just really curious because
18:40
Speaker 1: I feel as if there is a subtle difference. And
18:43
Speaker 1: sometimes I feel like I can tell between a psychopath
18:48
Speaker 1: a sociopath anybody that is murdering somebody who's murdering someone.
18:51
Speaker 1: I could easily say, oh, that's a psychopath. But again,
18:54
Speaker 1: you know, in certain cases it's like, oh, she snapped.
18:59
Speaker 1: I don't know always the difference.
19:01
Speaker 2: You know, No, I mean it's I'm you know, I'm
19:05
Speaker 2: not a psychiatrist. But you know, sometimes it is important to,
19:13
Speaker 2: you know, focus on the killer and why they kill
19:17
Speaker 2: and how they kill, because you know, I think we
19:21
Speaker 2: delude ourselves. You know. The the thing I've learned in
19:26
Speaker 2: covering crime over the years is that it's the people
19:30
Speaker 2: you least expect and most often trust that often are
19:35
Speaker 2: the people who do terrible things. You know. We want
19:37
Speaker 2: to think that the serial killer is always evil and
19:41
Speaker 2: he emerges from the shadow with like blood dripping from
19:44
Speaker 2: his fangs, and like he's very identifiable in society, because
19:48
Speaker 2: that gives you the false comfort that you can identify
19:52
Speaker 2: right right somebody and avoid the fate of becoming a victim.
19:56
Speaker 2: But the truth is, most of these people, unless you're acting, uh,
20:02
Speaker 2: you know, the way Brian Koberger acted, which was totally secretly.
20:06
Speaker 2: But most people who do evil, whether it's a priest
20:09
Speaker 2: who commits pedophilia, which is the most horrible violation of
20:13
Speaker 2: trust one could imagine, or Bernie made off, you know,
20:17
Speaker 2: who pretended to be a wonderful that I did, I
20:22
Speaker 2: did off, you know, but stealing people's money, or somebody
20:26
Speaker 2: like Ted Bundy had lots of friends, you know. One
20:30
Speaker 2: of the reasons I did. I did a movie with
20:32
Speaker 2: zach Efron and Lily Collins about called Extremely Wicked, which
20:36
Speaker 2: is through which is through Bundy's point of sorry, which
20:39
Speaker 2: is through Lily Collins' character's point of view. The girlfriend
20:44
Speaker 2: who was Bundy had totally gas lit and she believed
20:48
Speaker 2: he was a wonderful guy. She had a daughter who
20:51
Speaker 2: looked up to Ted Bundy as a wonderful surrogate father
20:55
Speaker 2: figure lived in that same house. So these people sometimes,
20:59
Speaker 2: I think, depending on the circumstance, it is important to
21:04
Speaker 2: do the portrait of the killer so that especially younger people,
21:08
Speaker 2: you know, my kids were sitting around the Thanksgiving table
21:11
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, around the time I was contemplating doing
21:14
Speaker 2: both Bundy shows. I did conversations with the killer the
21:18
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy tapes, which was about the mind of the killer,
21:21
Speaker 2: and we had these very revealing tapes that explained his motivation,
21:25
Speaker 2: why he did what he did. And then I did
21:28
Speaker 2: the movie six months later. Just a coincidence. I did both.
21:33
Speaker 2: It's a long story that I won't bore you with.
21:35
Speaker 2: But you know, it's not like it was not by
21:38
Speaker 2: design that I said, oh, let me do two Bundy things.
21:40
Speaker 1: I would like to hear the story. I know, if
21:42
Speaker 1: you didn't have to go, believe me, it wouldn't bore me.
21:45
Speaker 2: But I mean, maybe we'll go there in a minute.
21:47
Speaker 2: But just to make just to make the point, you know,
21:50
Speaker 2: we were sitting around the table and I said to
21:53
Speaker 2: my kids, because up until that point, I you know,
21:55
Speaker 2: most of my crime, you know, And I guess this
21:59
Speaker 2: is where I get the baggage a little bit of
22:02
Speaker 2: like being sensitive about being called true crime. Up until
22:05
Speaker 2: that point, most of my explorations of crime was wrongful conviction.
22:09
Speaker 2: Like I'm a very big wrongful conviction advocate. My film
22:14
Speaker 2: Paradise Lost, you know, literally got three teenagers out of
22:18
Speaker 2: one on to you know, I had another show called
22:22
Speaker 2: wrong Man. You know, I mean, the thing I'm most
22:24
Speaker 2: proud of in my career is I've gotten seven people
22:27
Speaker 2: my work. Wow, gotten seven people out of prison? Who
22:29
Speaker 2: are you?
22:30
Speaker 1: Don't have to ever do another good thing.
22:32
Speaker 2: I know there's a place in heaven for me, and
22:34
Speaker 2: I should say that. You know, I'm the front man
22:36
Speaker 2: for a lot of people who have done a lot
22:38
Speaker 2: of important work. But anyway, so you know, most of
22:40
Speaker 2: my crime focus was on wrongful conviction and then I
22:43
Speaker 2: did the Bundee tapes and it exploded on that Netflix,
22:46
Speaker 2: and of course they want what's successful. So I've been
22:49
Speaker 2: on the serial killer jag for the last six years.
22:52
Speaker 2: But before I pivoted to doing like pure serial killer,
22:57
Speaker 2: I was sitting around the Thanksgiving table with my kids
23:00
Speaker 2: and I said, I'm contemplating doing the show about Ted
23:04
Speaker 2: Bundy these tapes, but it's very graphic, and I'm just
23:09
Speaker 2: I have mixed feelings. And I said to my kids,
23:10
Speaker 2: what do you what do you do you guys? What
23:12
Speaker 2: do you guys think of Ted Bundy as a subject?
23:14
Speaker 2: And literally, you know, my younger daughter was at MIT
23:18
Speaker 2: and my older daughter had just trusted. My older daughter
23:22
Speaker 2: had just graduated from Columbia, so both very very bright
23:25
Speaker 2: young women, and you know, in their early twenties. Neither
23:30
Speaker 2: one of them knew who Ted Bundy was. And I said, oh,
23:32
Speaker 2: that's interesting. Please, you know, text your friends and see
23:36
Speaker 2: if they know. Literally, no one in that age group
23:39
Speaker 2: knew who Ted but one one person said, isn't he
23:41
Speaker 2: a baseball player? You know? Well, nobody knew who he was?
23:45
Speaker 2: And so I thought, okay, I think using Netflix as
23:48
Speaker 2: a platform, which is global and reaches a young demographic,
23:52
Speaker 2: what is the lesson of Ted Bundy that just because
23:55
Speaker 2: somebody is charming and good looking, it doesn't mean you
23:58
Speaker 2: should trust them. That's an important message to put out
24:00
Speaker 2: into the world. So that was my reason for getting
24:03
Speaker 2: into the serial killer thing is that, you know, we think,
24:06
Speaker 2: as I was saying before, we think that serial killers
24:09
Speaker 2: like look like serial killers all the time and just
24:11
Speaker 2: you know, you just know how to avoid them. But
24:13
Speaker 2: most of the time, the people who do bad things,
24:16
Speaker 2: you know, gain your trust and you think they're good people.
24:19
Speaker 2: And I wanted to warn my daughter's generation about that.
24:22
Speaker 2: That was the reason I chose zach Efron to you know,
24:24
Speaker 2: it was a very conversial choice at the time, and
24:27
Speaker 2: people thought it was stunt casting and I'm romanticizing a
24:30
Speaker 2: serial No, I'm zac Efron for a certain age group,
24:34
Speaker 2: you know, for the twenty to twenty four year old
24:37
Speaker 2: women at that time. He's somebody who could do no wrong.
24:41
Speaker 2: He's somebody who girls feel they know and trust. And
24:46
Speaker 2: so if you want to portray dramatically the whole idea
24:50
Speaker 2: of how serial killers gaslight their victims into thinking they're
24:54
Speaker 2: good people, you know that younger audience who doesn't, who
24:59
Speaker 2: aren't really that familiar with Bundy. To me, I thought
25:03
Speaker 2: they would take this journey on this movie where he's,
25:06
Speaker 2: you know, Lily Collins' character, the girlfriend thinks he's innocent
25:09
Speaker 2: and he's proclaiming his innocence and then at the end
25:12
Speaker 2: you realize he actually is a serial killer. I wanted
25:15
Speaker 2: that young audience to have that emotional reaction of being
25:19
Speaker 2: gas lit themselves, to portray that they how they do.
25:23
Speaker 2: It wasn't like an attempt to glamorize the serial kid.
25:27
Speaker 1: Of course not. Let me tell you something, my friend,
25:29
Speaker 1: if my daughter met a zac Efron type, I don't
25:34
Speaker 1: know that she would be as discerning or as careful
25:39
Speaker 1: as I would like for her to be. Period. So
25:44
Speaker 1: I think that message is amazing, right, especially for young girls.
25:49
Speaker 1: And I was a young girl. If it had been
25:52
Speaker 1: me and somebody that looked like zach Efron had paid
25:56
Speaker 1: attention to me, I would have forgiven a lot. I
25:57
Speaker 1: would have overseen a lot. Yeah, So I mean, I
26:00
Speaker 1: think that's so important.
26:02
Speaker 2: And in this case, and look, just to be clear
26:04
Speaker 2: to the listener, you know, I produced the Idaho murders,
26:09
Speaker 2: but sky Borgman was the director, so I should give
26:11
Speaker 2: her lots of the credit. You know. She really wanted
26:14
Speaker 2: to focus and I agreed, you know, wanted to focus
26:17
Speaker 2: on the families. And in part the reason we wanted
26:19
Speaker 2: to focus on the families is there was just so
26:22
Speaker 2: much misinformation out there and accusatory comments, you.
26:28
Speaker 1: Know, mainly around the girls not calling nine.
26:31
Speaker 2: One one I'm like that and other things.
26:34
Speaker 1: You know.
26:34
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, I did a show two years
26:36
Speaker 2: ago on John Benet Ramsey, you know, because people still
26:42
Speaker 2: are obsessed with this incredibly false and dangerous and mean
26:46
Speaker 2: they still are this mean idea that the parents involved
26:50
Speaker 2: and that the nine year old at the time brother somehow,
26:53
Speaker 2: you know, did these horrible crimes. And if you just
26:55
Speaker 2: look at the autopsy report and you dig into like
26:58
Speaker 2: how this poor girl actually died. It's absurd and yet
27:02
Speaker 2: and so I went out of my way to tell
27:05
Speaker 2: to show what I think is what happened, and how
27:08
Speaker 2: the parents are innocent, and yet on readit all these
27:11
Speaker 2: people like calling out Burke still to this day. And
27:15
Speaker 2: that's what I find a little painful and trouble about
27:18
Speaker 2: the genre. I mean, the genre has obviously exploded in
27:23
Speaker 2: this you know, look, people have always On the one hand,
27:25
Speaker 2: I think it's more popular than ever, But on the
27:28
Speaker 2: other hand, it really isn't. It's just the documentary and
27:30
Speaker 2: podcasting has become the delivery mechanism. I mean, everyone has
27:34
Speaker 2: been fascinated with crime since you know. I mean Shakespeare
27:37
Speaker 2: was writing about crime, you know, and you know, in
27:39
Speaker 2: the thirties you could.
27:40
Speaker 1: Buy Shakespeare wasn't talking about real people. Well well, let
27:44
Speaker 1: me just go back for a moment.
27:46
Speaker 2: Well, yes and no, but more contemporary examples. In the
27:52
Speaker 2: nineteenth century you could buy tickets at public hangings and
27:55
Speaker 2: they would sell out. The thirties, buy souvenir programs, you know,
28:00
Speaker 2: at famous murder trials, and people like wrong with us,
28:03
Speaker 2: you know, So we've always been interested in crime. You know.
28:06
Speaker 2: In the fifties there was ten thousand true detective pocket
28:09
Speaker 2: book paperbacks and magazines like you know, in the sixties,
28:13
Speaker 2: a whole new genre of literature called the nonfiction novel
28:17
Speaker 2: with Truman Capodis in Cold Blood was created in that
28:21
Speaker 2: you know, the onion feel by Joseph Wambag and you know,
28:25
Speaker 2: there's just that that was the delivery mechanism then. Now
28:31
Speaker 2: documentary and podcasting has become so popular that, of course
28:35
Speaker 2: a popular genre called true crime is benefiting from the
28:40
Speaker 2: general rise in pot But I don't think we're any
28:42
Speaker 2: more interested in crime then then in the past. But
28:45
Speaker 2: what's different is this people go on these you know,
28:49
Speaker 2: you know, Reddit and go down these rabbit holes, and
28:52
Speaker 2: it's so easy to like talk about stuff, which is good,
28:55
Speaker 2: but it's also mean.
28:56
Speaker 1: I think, well, I one hundred percent agree. And I
28:59
Speaker 1: also when I posted that I actually don't think that
29:03
Speaker 1: Scott Peterson is guilty anymore. You can't imagine the backlash online.
29:08
Speaker 1: How dare I do that to Lacy's parents? And I
29:12
Speaker 1: watched this documentary. I'm sorry, and I am I that
29:16
Speaker 1: is how I feel, and I don't apologize for it, right,
29:19
Speaker 1: And I knew John Benny's parents didn't do it, and
29:23
Speaker 1: there was so much evidence, and I it must be
29:27
Speaker 1: so frustrating for you, right, I just.
29:30
Speaker 2: Try to ignore it. I just, you know, I just
29:32
Speaker 2: feel bad for the people involved, you know, like Burke
29:34
Speaker 2: Ramsey was scarred by all the decades of accusation. John Ramsey,
29:39
Speaker 2: who's you know eighty one, has become a good friend
29:42
Speaker 2: of mine, and you know, I so admire him. He
29:44
Speaker 2: just stoically has withstood all of this backlash towards him
29:51
Speaker 2: and still to this day keeps hammering. You know, why
29:54
Speaker 2: would a guilty guy keep hammering the Boulder the very
29:58
Speaker 2: inept Bolder Police department to retest items from the crime
30:04
Speaker 2: scene because DNA technology has so changed that it's you know,
30:09
Speaker 2: and there are certain items from the crime scene that
30:11
Speaker 2: were never tested, and the Boulder police just keep refusing
30:14
Speaker 2: and obfuse, skating and not even even though they make
30:16
Speaker 2: these promises. You know, It's just I mean, can you
30:20
Speaker 2: imagine he's you know, this guy lost his first child
30:24
Speaker 2: in a car accident when she was in her early twenties,
30:27
Speaker 2: I believe, and then John Beney came along shortly thereafter
30:31
Speaker 2: as kind of the magic you know, gift to help
30:35
Speaker 2: him get over the death. Of his daughter from another marriage,
30:38
Speaker 2: and then this daughter dies in the most horrific way,
30:42
Speaker 2: and then they're blamed for it, and the pressure of
30:48
Speaker 2: being blamed in the in the in the horrible treatment
30:51
Speaker 2: by the media that they received, caused Patsy Ramsey's cancer
30:57
Speaker 2: to come back and she died of cancer. I mean,
30:59
Speaker 2: and he's withstood all of that, you know. And so
31:03
Speaker 2: these what people say online and how people consume this stuff,
31:08
Speaker 2: and look, I make it and they consume it. Look,
31:10
Speaker 2: I'm proud, hey, number one show on Netflix whatever, but
31:13
Speaker 2: on the so like, so I'm being a little hypocritical
31:17
Speaker 2: and criticizing it, but I just wish people would consume
31:20
Speaker 2: this stuff in a different way, you know.
31:22
Speaker 1: I don't think that's hypocritical. I think that in terms
31:25
Speaker 1: of what you do and what Sky does, there are
31:28
Speaker 1: there are those documentaries that reach eighteen million people, and
31:32
Speaker 1: it's because of a lot I think of factors. Sometimes
31:36
Speaker 1: the story, although it's been told before, but there is
31:39
Speaker 1: a lot that goes on here, and there is cinematography
31:42
Speaker 1: and there is the sound of the whole thing, and
31:47
Speaker 1: that captures us whether or not it's about real people.
31:51
Speaker 1: But you do put that in right, I mean, there
31:54
Speaker 1: is a certain amount of art that goes along with this.
31:56
Speaker 1: This is not you know, just watching ABC News tell
32:00
Speaker 1: a story. It's also obviously the connection with the victims
32:05
Speaker 1: and their families, which is another question I have for you.
32:07
Speaker 1: But these these poor parents and sisters, and and is
32:12
Speaker 1: it is it hard to get their trust because of
32:14
Speaker 1: like what's happened before the way that maybe they don't
32:17
Speaker 1: they're not thrilled with how the story has been told before.
32:19
Speaker 2: It wasn't time sometimes. I mean I actually was the
32:23
Speaker 2: one who got the access to the families, and originally
32:28
Speaker 2: I was going to direct the show, but I had
32:30
Speaker 2: a scheduled conflict, and so I thought Sky. You know,
32:33
Speaker 2: I admire her as a filmmaker, so I thought Sky
32:35
Speaker 2: was and she did a great job, you know, like
32:38
Speaker 2: did so you know, I brought Sky in after I
32:41
Speaker 2: had gotten the initial contact, but then she did an
32:44
Speaker 2: amazing job getting you know, building the relationship and getting
32:47
Speaker 2: more people involved, and you know, so I give her
32:53
Speaker 2: all the credit in the world. But uh, you know,
32:58
Speaker 2: I always I'm so pompous, but I always try to
33:03
Speaker 2: you know, I believe what you put out in the
33:06
Speaker 2: world comes back to you. I'm a big believer in karma,
33:09
Speaker 2: and you know, I always try to leave a place
33:12
Speaker 2: that I visit filmley speaking better than when I got there.
33:17
Speaker 2: And I try to treat all people with respect, and
33:21
Speaker 2: so I think that has stood me in good stead.
33:23
Speaker 2: Like you know, the judge from Paradise Lost wanted to
33:28
Speaker 2: speak to the judge from Brothers Keeper to see if
33:30
Speaker 2: we had, you know, how we had comported. So, like
33:35
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not a slash and burn filmmaker, and
33:37
Speaker 2: I think, you know, you have to put care in
33:40
Speaker 2: your human interactions and what you put out in the
33:42
Speaker 2: world that comes back to you. I'm just a big
33:43
Speaker 2: believer in that. So people seem to, you know, trust
33:48
Speaker 2: us and allow us to tell their stories. And I
33:51
Speaker 2: can't say that everyone I've ever told a story about,
33:53
Speaker 2: you know, hasn't had an issue here or there. Because
33:56
Speaker 2: it's hard to see yourself on TV and people have
33:59
Speaker 2: so and expectations what they.
34:01
Speaker 1: Want in what they want out. There's editing involved. I'm
34:03
Speaker 1: sure that's.
34:04
Speaker 2: Hard, yeah, But generally speaking, you know, I haven't found
34:09
Speaker 2: it that hard to get access to stories because I
34:14
Speaker 2: conduct myself in a certain way and you know my record,
34:18
Speaker 2: you know, it's easier and easier because of my track record.
34:22
Speaker 2: But you just have to treat people with respect. I mean,
34:24
Speaker 2: it's just so basic, and there's so many people in
34:26
Speaker 2: this business. It's just like slash and burn, get what
34:29
Speaker 2: I need and not thinking about the consequences.
34:32
Speaker 1: You're also at a point now where I'm thinking you
34:35
Speaker 1: can pick and choose, and you know, I don't know,
34:40
Speaker 1: You're probably very careful in terms of what you know
34:43
Speaker 1: you do pick and the people that do in the
34:46
Speaker 1: cases that do speak to you.
34:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, look, I'm lucky in that
34:52
Speaker 2: I do get to pick and choose. I don't have
34:54
Speaker 2: to work, which is nice. I mean, I'm working because
34:57
Speaker 2: I like, I don't know what I would do if
34:59
Speaker 2: I wasn't working. So yeah, if you're going to spend
35:01
Speaker 2: two years on a project, in this case, four years,
35:03
Speaker 2: you want to make sure it's That's why I said
35:06
Speaker 2: at the beginning, you know, I don't want to tell
35:08
Speaker 2: the story unless I feel I'm doing more than just
35:11
Speaker 2: telling a story. You know, what needle can I move?
35:14
Speaker 2: What what message can I put out there? And for
35:17
Speaker 2: this we really wanted to return the focus to the families,
35:21
Speaker 2: to remind people that you know, these are real people
35:24
Speaker 2: and the impact on the you know, the news itself
35:27
Speaker 2: about the case is the information is out there. But
35:30
Speaker 2: what is special about the show is we wanted to
35:33
Speaker 2: have a wider lens see how, you know, how the
35:37
Speaker 2: media treated the case, See how it impacted the community,
35:40
Speaker 2: see how it impacted loved ones. I mean, I think
35:44
Speaker 2: in part because I want to remind people, and Sky
35:46
Speaker 2: wanted to remind people. These are real people. And so
35:49
Speaker 2: when you go on read it and like accuse the
35:52
Speaker 2: roommates of not calling and you know, like think twice
35:56
Speaker 2: about that kind of action.
36:11
Speaker 1: Let me ask you something we talked about at the beginning.
36:13
Speaker 1: How you think it's arrogant? But I think the timing
36:17
Speaker 1: is very interesting in terms of him changing his plea. Yeah,
36:20
Speaker 1: I hope you feel the same way I do. Like
36:22
Speaker 1: that's just a waste of his fucking time.
36:25
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just this guy is guilty as sin,
36:28
Speaker 2: you know. And look, I'm a wrongful conviction advocate, and
36:32
Speaker 2: I you know, I don't say those words lightly when
36:36
Speaker 2: I feel somebody is guilty. But I'm like, and that's
36:39
Speaker 2: the fascinating You know, I'm old enough and have been
36:43
Speaker 2: doing this long enough that it just fascinates me now
36:47
Speaker 2: at all the digital breadcrumbs that any case leaves behind.
36:50
Speaker 2: I mean, I think these investigators did a terrific job.
36:53
Speaker 2: You know, the the ring camera foot is, the surveillance camera,
36:58
Speaker 2: the genetic geniulogy, you know, but like the digital footprint
37:05
Speaker 2: we now leave and that people are able to put together.
37:07
Speaker 2: It's also another great doc on Netflix called The Perfect
37:12
Speaker 2: Neighbor also was made entirely with you know, a body camp.
37:19
Speaker 2: It's called The Perfect Neighbor by Guida Ganbier, and it's
37:23
Speaker 2: just an incredible film neighbor shooting a kid, you know,
37:28
Speaker 2: and it's all called in Surveillance State. I mean, it's
37:32
Speaker 2: really quite good. So these these digits, you know, the
37:35
Speaker 2: digital footprint that we leave is relatively new and fascinating,
37:41
Speaker 2: and so these I think the police department did a
37:43
Speaker 2: great job. Where I disagree, and it relates to the
37:45
Speaker 2: plea deal. Where I disagree with them is they should
37:49
Speaker 2: not have consummated that plea deal without the parents. I
37:55
Speaker 2: find that a terrible decision. I'm sure they have their reasons,
37:59
Speaker 2: and I I also think, you know, Coburger was kind
38:02
Speaker 2: of in charge because he didn't have to admit what
38:05
Speaker 2: he did other than taking the plead deal or provide details,
38:10
Speaker 2: and that you know, that's so painful for the families
38:12
Speaker 2: not to know, Like I'm not. That is my one criticism.
38:17
Speaker 1: You know, they really that they should have had to say.
38:19
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, there's a part of me that thinks
38:21
Speaker 1: a lifetime in maximum security is worse than the death penalty.
38:26
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think he would have almost gotten
38:30
Speaker 1: off easy. But that's just a personal opinion. It didn't
38:32
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It matters how the parents felt about it,
38:35
Speaker 1: and the you know, in these links.
38:37
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, it's a tough thing because I'm
38:39
Speaker 2: virulently anti death penalty, but not from a morality standpoint,
38:45
Speaker 2: like I don't want to and I have I don't
38:47
Speaker 2: want to look into the eyes of a mother who's
38:49
Speaker 2: lost a loved one or a child to a murderer
38:55
Speaker 2: and tell her she doesn't have the right to feel
38:57
Speaker 2: like the only closure for her as if that person
39:01
Speaker 2: is put to death. Like so I don't want to
39:03
Speaker 2: take I don't want to. You know a lot of
39:04
Speaker 2: people talk about the death penalty from a moral standpoint.
39:08
Speaker 2: I don't even want to go there because you don't
39:10
Speaker 2: have to get to the moral argument. If you understand,
39:14
Speaker 2: I firmly believe that five percent of our prison population
39:17
Speaker 2: are wrongfully convicted people.
39:20
Speaker 1: And that's the bottom line. One person is wrongfully convicted.
39:23
Speaker 1: I get it.
39:24
Speaker 2: We have the highest incarceration rate in the world. We
39:26
Speaker 2: have five percent of the population on the planet and
39:30
Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the inmates. I mean, that's a
39:33
Speaker 2: that's a sobering.
39:34
Speaker 1: Statistic, and it's crazy.
39:36
Speaker 2: There's two million people in prison approximately, and five percent
39:42
Speaker 2: of them, which all wrongful conviction experts agree, is a
39:44
Speaker 2: pretty reliable figure. That means there's one hundred thousand people
39:47
Speaker 2: in prison. Some of them are on death row. And
39:49
Speaker 2: so the murder of one innocent person, just one, it
39:54
Speaker 2: makes it more apprehensible to have a deathiculty.
39:57
Speaker 1: So you know, and now you're the person who pulled
39:59
Speaker 1: the plug. I don't know. It's it's all of that.
40:02
Speaker 1: So I agree with you. They're telling me you have
40:06
Speaker 1: to wrap, but I just maybe you can't tell me.
40:09
Speaker 1: I don't think Skuy couldlast im? Can you tell me
40:11
Speaker 1: what you're working on?
40:12
Speaker 2: Well, in this instance, I can tell you I have
40:15
Speaker 2: another show coming out very soon. Normally Netflix, when we're
40:18
Speaker 2: working on stuff, we're I'm allowed to talk about it
40:20
Speaker 2: until it comes out, but I on August twelfth, I
40:23
Speaker 2: have the another season of Conversations with the Killer. It's
40:28
Speaker 2: actually Netflix is one of their longest running series. It's
40:32
Speaker 2: this season, but this is the final season and we're
40:35
Speaker 2: doing we have new audio recordings from Charles Manson, so
40:40
Speaker 2: we're doing Charles Manson Conversations with the Killers.
40:44
Speaker 1: To Charles Manson's granddaughter, I just, yeah.
40:48
Speaker 2: Eager to see that show. I haven't had that film.
40:50
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it yet, but you know, this, this
40:53
Speaker 2: is this is the telling of the Manson story with
40:56
Speaker 2: these audio tapes, and it's the final season of our show.
41:00
Speaker 2: We're going to kind of put it to bed after this,
41:02
Speaker 2: and I wanted to focus on Manson in part because
41:05
Speaker 2: tapes emerged that were interesting, but also to me, Charles
41:08
Speaker 2: Manson is like the big bang of our of our
41:12
Speaker 2: current media obsession with true crime. You know, how the
41:18
Speaker 2: case was covered and how we consume stories of murder
41:22
Speaker 2: fundamentally changed from that case. So it's kind of you know,
41:26
Speaker 2: I think, as I said, you know, it was like
41:28
Speaker 2: a very foundational story in the history of the explosion
41:34
Speaker 2: of true crime storytelling.
41:35
Speaker 1: Another one that you know, I was a certain age,
41:37
Speaker 1: you were a certain age, and I just remember being
41:40
Speaker 1: afraid for my mother that they were going to come
41:42
Speaker 1: for her because I don't know if she had long,
41:44
Speaker 1: dark hair whatever, But that one, you know, there there
41:47
Speaker 1: are there are certain that certain ones that just change.
41:50
Speaker 1: I feel like the landscape a little bit. But Okay,
41:53
Speaker 1: really appreciate you. Nice talking to you and you congratulations.
41:57
Speaker 2: Thank you. Take care,