Latest / Ministry Minded / Church Hurt, Pastoral Burnout, and Hopeful Ministry with Pilgrim Benham

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Church Hurt, Pastoral Burnout, and Hopeful Ministry with Pilgrim Benham · Ministry Minded

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SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy
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SPEAKER_02: ministries.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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I'm the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church right here
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in Pax Sinus,
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Pennsylvania.
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And I'm delighted to be sharing with you this episode where I
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get to talk with
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SPEAKER_02: pastor and church leader,
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SPEAKER_02: Pilgrim Pastor.
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Benham Pilgrim is a friend that I've been able to connect with
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through social media
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SPEAKER_02: and whatnot and various outlets,
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but I'm delighted to have him in this conversation where we get
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to talk about so
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SPEAKER_02: many different things related to pastoral ministry,
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SPEAKER_02: from pastoral rhythms and the necessity of rest to
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What it looks like to endure seasons of pastoral confusion,
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of pastoral hurt,
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ministry hurt.
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What does it mean and what does it look like when you go
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through those confusing
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bouts of suffering where you are feeling the hurts and the cuts
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from those with
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SPEAKER_02: whom you've been called to minister to?
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These are some things that maybe sometimes you're not allowed
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to talk about as
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SPEAKER_02: pastors,
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SPEAKER_02: but I wanted to have this conversation with Pilgrim.
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SPEAKER_02: He has a lot to share,
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but he has an honest and a true heart for the Lord and for the
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things of the Lord,
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SPEAKER_02: for the gospel,
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SPEAKER_02: for the sake of Jesus Christ.
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SPEAKER_02: And even as pastors go through difficulties,
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they go through great seasons of just doubt and confusion and
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stress and whatnot,
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SPEAKER_02: fill in the blank.
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SPEAKER_02: There is grace to be found.
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SPEAKER_02: There is grace to be had.
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SPEAKER_02: There is a truth that prevails.
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SPEAKER_02: And we kind of get into all that.
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SPEAKER_02: We get into what that looks like, especially...
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SPEAKER_02: as what it means to be a family,
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a pastoral family that goes through some of those difficulties
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and seasons.
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SPEAKER_02: So we get into all that and much more.
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SPEAKER_02: It was a delight to talk to Pilgrim.
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SPEAKER_02: I think I really enjoyed this episode,
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SPEAKER_02: whether you are a person in the pew,
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whether you're a person in the pulpit or aspiring to be in the
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pulpit leading a
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SPEAKER_02: church.
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I think this episode will be able to speak into your context
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and give you a lot of
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insight into what it means and what it looks like to be a
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pastor that navigates
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SPEAKER_02: difficulty,
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SPEAKER_02: that navigates stressful seasons of life,
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whether those be outside the church or even from inside the
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church itself.
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SPEAKER_02: So sit back,
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enjoy this episode as I talk to Pilgrim Benham about church
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hurt and pastoral
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SPEAKER_02: burnout and all kinds of other things.
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SPEAKER_02: Ah, Pilgrim, it's so good to have you on the show today.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad that we can finally connect.
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This is one of those conversations I've been eager to have just
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because it's one of
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SPEAKER_02: those moments where it's like this person you've connected with online,
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SPEAKER_02: you're finally,
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SPEAKER_02: and this is still online,
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SPEAKER_02: but I'm seeing your face now,
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SPEAKER_02: but you're finally connecting with in a more personal way.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'm really happy to make this happen.
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SPEAKER_02: How are you doing, Pilgrim?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you, Bradley, so much.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm doing great.
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SPEAKER_00: It's good to be here and looking forward to chatting.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: I think as we were just even chatting beforehand,
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SPEAKER_02: we have a lot of just crossover mutual friends,
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SPEAKER_02: mutual interests.
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And so it's good that we can finally kind of make this happen,
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so to speak.
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SPEAKER_02: So before we bear the lead anymore or get into some sort of rabbit trail,
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SPEAKER_02: why don't you just introduce yourself,
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SPEAKER_02: kind of where you are,
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SPEAKER_02: your family,
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SPEAKER_02: and kind of what is keeping you busy in this season of life?
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SPEAKER_00: Sure.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: So, um, yeah, my name is Pilgrim Benham, which, uh, is a unique name.
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SPEAKER_00: Uh, grew up in a Christian hippie home.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's, that's where the name came from.
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SPEAKER_00: Uh, my, my parents were, um, basically at a, at a, like a Jesus festival.
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SPEAKER_00: And,
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SPEAKER_00: uh,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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if you've seen any like Jesus revolution or any of the hippie
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movement stuff,
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SPEAKER_00: that was completely done.
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SPEAKER_00: And so, um,
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SPEAKER_00: Raised in a home to know the name of Christ,
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SPEAKER_00: love the name of Christ,
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SPEAKER_00: not love my name,
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SPEAKER_00: but middle school was awkward.
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SPEAKER_00: Then grew to love the name.
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But the idea of being a sojourner and on mission for Christ in
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this world,
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the kingdom.
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SPEAKER_00: Did you have any weird nicknames in high school?
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can go with anything.
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SPEAKER_00: Not really.
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SPEAKER_00: No.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, people find nicknames for any name.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just keep going.
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But yeah,
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so I had a like a just a radical salvation experience at the
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age of 17.
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SPEAKER_00: So even though I was raised in a Christian home,
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SPEAKER_00: my parents got divorced and I was kind of running from Christ,
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SPEAKER_00: seeking,
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SPEAKER_00: not sure,
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SPEAKER_00: just sort of wanted to run into the world.
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SPEAKER_00: And Christ captured my heart.
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That's a longer story,
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but within,
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I'd say within a year or two,
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I graduated early.
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SPEAKER_00: So I was involved in youth ministry right after high school.
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SPEAKER_00: And yes,
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some of our church leaders saw the gift of teaching in me
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before I saw it and
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SPEAKER_00: basically said,
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SPEAKER_00: you should pray about,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: like teaching,
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SPEAKER_00: being in ministry.
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And so that sort of led my wife and I eventually got married
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and led us to Bible college.
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SPEAKER_00: And then we worked at our church's youth ministry for about 10 years.
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SPEAKER_00: And whenever you talk to people who work in youth ministry,
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SPEAKER_00: it sounds like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: doing time.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, I did eight years.
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SPEAKER_00: But loved,
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SPEAKER_00: actually really still love student ministry,
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SPEAKER_00: love equipping youngsters,
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SPEAKER_00: getting to see like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: those first steps,
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SPEAKER_00: those life-changing moments,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: their first missions trip,
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SPEAKER_00: their first,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: experience.
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SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we love doing that.
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And then the Lord directed us to sort of step out in faith and
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plant churches.
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SPEAKER_00: So we, in 2010, planted our first church in Tampa.
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SPEAKER_00: And that church is still going today.
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SPEAKER_00: Vibrant, awesome, growing fellowship in downtown, downtown area of Tampa.
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SPEAKER_00: And then about four years into that,
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SPEAKER_00: the Lord directed us to plant our second church,
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SPEAKER_00: more suburban in southwest Florida.
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SPEAKER_00: Sort of near the Sarasota area.
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SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: we were there for almost 10 years and sort of a difficult situation,
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SPEAKER_00: a series of events,
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SPEAKER_00: a lot of backstory here.
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But at the same time,
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the Lord was redirecting our family to North Carolina.
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where at the time I didn't know it,
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but now we found out my dad was in renal failure.
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So we got to spend some about a year and a half of really sweet
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time with him.
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SPEAKER_00: He's still alive.
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SPEAKER_00: He's hanging in there at the time of this recording.
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SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so that was a really restorative, sabbatical, restful season.
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SPEAKER_00: Very surprising season.
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SPEAKER_00: We thought it'd be longer and we didn't know what was up.
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SPEAKER_00: Like we weren't in pastoral ministry.
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SPEAKER_00: And so what are we doing, Lord?
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SPEAKER_00: And then most recently,
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SPEAKER_00: the Lord opened a door for us to move back to our hometown,
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SPEAKER_00: Bradenton,
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SPEAKER_00: and work with the actual Bible college that I went to in California,
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SPEAKER_00: Calvary Chapel,
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SPEAKER_00: that relocated.
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They've been there 50 years and relocated to our hometown,
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which is just wild.
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So the president of that school asked me to come be the dean of
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students and teach
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SPEAKER_00: a variety of classes and just sort of
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SPEAKER_00: build out the student life experience for our residents.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's been, it's been an adventure.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's what I'm, what I'm currently doing and get to teach the Bible.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm a pastor, one of the associate pastors of our church.
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So I get to minister there and teach on occasion in the pulpit
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and shepherd the flock.
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SPEAKER_00: So God is good.
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SPEAKER_02: Amen.
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Praise the Lord for,
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you know,
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your season away and we can get into all that.
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There's so many different directions I want to go now just
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because of hearing your story.
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SPEAKER_02: But like, how has it been?
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I mean,
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you just said you're in ministry still right now,
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associate pastoring.
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SPEAKER_02: But how has it been sort of being in the academic world,
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SPEAKER_02: if I can say that,
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SPEAKER_02: as well as just the church world?
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SPEAKER_02: Because I've talked to some other,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
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theology professors and other faculty of different seminaries
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and institutions,
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SPEAKER_02: and just talking about the dynamics of those two different worlds,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: theology in academia and theology in the church or on the ground,
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SPEAKER_02: so to speak,
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SPEAKER_02: and trying to bridge that gap.
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SPEAKER_02: So I
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SPEAKER_02: Can you speak into that?
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SPEAKER_02: And is there anything that you're kind of in that fairly recently,
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SPEAKER_02: but is there anything you've kind of noticed or gleaned?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think we're all in that.
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Hopefully we're all in that persuasive mindset that we don't
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want the ivory tower
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SPEAKER_00: theologian divorced from the local church.
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SPEAKER_00: That should never be the case anyway.
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SPEAKER_00: I think we've we've turned that corner.
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SPEAKER_00: There's still an important need.
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I would never diminish the need for academia,
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you know,
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for theological training and education.
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But I think we finally turned the corner where we're like,
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okay,
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this is what this looks like.
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SPEAKER_00: My personal master's program was cohort model.
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I know that seems to be the trend is,
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you know,
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since COVID,
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it's trending online.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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My prayer and hope is that it's it would always be tied to the
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local church.
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That's kind of what we're doing here is is the integration of
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of student life,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: with particularly,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: our local church.
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SPEAKER_00: But, you know, not divorcing the two.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think I think that's hopefully where I see it,
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SPEAKER_00: that we're trending in that direction,
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SPEAKER_00: not away from it,
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SPEAKER_00: which is,
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SPEAKER_00: I think,
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SPEAKER_00: positive.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and there's this weird dichotomy for me because I learned a lot.
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SPEAKER_02: I got my master's from Midwestern.
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SPEAKER_02: I finished that earlier this year,
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SPEAKER_02: and I can see so much of the value of academia and academy study.
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SPEAKER_02: However,
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I know that I think I learned more within the first three
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months of being a pastor
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SPEAKER_02: than I ever did in a seminary seminar.
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SPEAKER_02: So that's like there's the rub, so to speak.
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Like I don't know really how to bridge that gap between those
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two different
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SPEAKER_02: realities because those realities really exist.
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SPEAKER_02: But I think what I think is most important is getting theologically or
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SPEAKER_02: ministerially minded students.
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opportunities instead of to use or equip them with the ability
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to implement what
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they're being taught in real world settings because then those
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academic ways in
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which you learn such and such doctrine or such and such thing
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are going to take
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maybe a little bit different form or maybe they're going to –
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it's going to be
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SPEAKER_02: implemented different than just here's this academic thing.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think that's really, really important.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree 100%.
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SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: so if you just got your,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: Midwestern,
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SPEAKER_00: so that means you were in pastoral ministry,
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SPEAKER_00: like parallel at the same time you're pursuing seminary.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And see, that's to me, that's the win.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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I think it is too because it really forced me a lot of times to
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– here I'm writing
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SPEAKER_02: some academic paper about the Trinity or something like that.
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How do I translate that into either a Sunday school class or
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some sort of seminar
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SPEAKER_02: that I can bring to a small group or whatever?
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SPEAKER_02: Because you can,
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SPEAKER_02: but you also can't do it in the same way because academic writing,
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SPEAKER_02: of course,
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SPEAKER_02: is going to sound a lot different.
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SPEAKER_02: It's going to read a lot different than –
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you know,
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just taking it to,
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you know,
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a small group or something like that.
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SPEAKER_02: So I think that's like the real challenge is,
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SPEAKER_02: is again,
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SPEAKER_02: bringing it again,
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SPEAKER_02: not bringing it down,
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SPEAKER_02: like we're dumbing it down,
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SPEAKER_02: but bringing it down in a way that is tangible,
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SPEAKER_02: that is accessible,
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SPEAKER_02: that,
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SPEAKER_02: that makes sense.
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SPEAKER_02: And not just make sense that we can,
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SPEAKER_02: that,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: an average person,
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SPEAKER_02: so to speak,
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SPEAKER_02: could think logically through such and such theological tenet,
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SPEAKER_02: but
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that it's accessible and it makes sense that we can see like
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the resonance of it.
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SPEAKER_02: Like what's the relevance of this?
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SPEAKER_02: How is this going to affect when I grow to the grocery store?
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SPEAKER_02: Like how is this going to affect this and this part of my life?
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SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's the challenge,
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but also the great joy too of doing quote unquote public
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theology is like this is
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SPEAKER_02: kind of the things that everyone's wrestling with.
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SPEAKER_02: And so it's kind of fun to wrestle with those things.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean,
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Piper wrote the book,
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Pastor as Theologian,
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Theologian as Pastor,
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I believe.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's a helpful small little resource,
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SPEAKER_00: but just that phrase,
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SPEAKER_00: just that idea that,
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SPEAKER_00: hey,
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SPEAKER_00: pastors need to be theologians.
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SPEAKER_00: Every believer needs to be a theologian at some level.
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SPEAKER_00: And so raise the bar, but also theologians need to be pastoral.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think that's helpful.
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SPEAKER_02: What I also think is interesting and unique about,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: your time in ministry,
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SPEAKER_02: you've had,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: already 20 years of ministry,
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SPEAKER_02: as you said,
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SPEAKER_02: 10 years in two different places.
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SPEAKER_02: And you're still kind of a young guy.
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SPEAKER_02: So like,
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SPEAKER_02: what is,
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what are some things that you've learned over two decades of
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ministry that you
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SPEAKER_02: would tell maybe to your 17 year old self?
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SPEAKER_02: What are some things that you were like,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: everyone has those like,
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SPEAKER_02: man,
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SPEAKER_02: I wish I had known this or whatever.
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What's something like that that you wish you could tell your
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younger self,
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so to speak?
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
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SPEAKER_00: How much time do we have?
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SPEAKER_02: This is the take it up the whole rest of the episode.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean, there's so much, you know, I see ministry now.
13:20
And this is what I teach to my ministry students here is like
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ministry is kingdom work.
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SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so it can happen vocationally.
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SPEAKER_00: Um,
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SPEAKER_00: and,
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SPEAKER_00: and yes,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm in the camp that says we should,
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SPEAKER_00: we should vocationally,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: pay and employ,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: our vocational pastors.
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SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's beyond that.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not limited to that.
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SPEAKER_00: And so ministry is kingdom work happening,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: outside of the church,
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SPEAKER_00: but,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
13:47
SPEAKER_00: but you're doing it as unto Christ.
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And so that's one of the key things is it's not,
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yes,
13:53
you're ministering to people.
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But I would have liked to have learned years ago,
13:57
like ministry itself is not Jesus.
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SPEAKER_00: It's work done.
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SPEAKER_00: It's work.
14:04
And so there's sweat and there's a beginning and an end and
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there's effort.
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SPEAKER_00: And that implies rest.
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SPEAKER_00: But itself is not Christ.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: And there is a difference.
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SPEAKER_00: We're doing it as unto Christ.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: We're ministering.
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SPEAKER_00: We're doing work for Christ and to Christ for his glory.
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SPEAKER_00: Uh, but we, we can't conflate the two.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where I may have maybe early on,
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SPEAKER_00: especially raising a young family,
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SPEAKER_00: being newly married,
14:30
SPEAKER_00: put the higher priority on,
14:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: we've heard the phrase,
14:33
SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: sacrificing your family on the altar of ministry,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
14:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:37
SPEAKER_00: or ministry as the,
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SPEAKER_00: as the,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: the mistress.
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And I think we bristle at those terms and those concepts and we
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say,
14:47
well,
14:47
no,
14:47
not me.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: And yet when we really weigh it out,
14:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:52
SPEAKER_00: is this the same,
14:53
SPEAKER_00: the work I'm doing,
14:54
SPEAKER_00: the church I'm serving,
14:55
SPEAKER_00: is this the same as Jesus?
14:57
SPEAKER_00: Is this the same as Christ's glory?
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Well,
15:00
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully not.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully we can separate the two and say,
15:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:04
SPEAKER_00: because otherwise,
15:05
SPEAKER_00: right,
15:05
SPEAKER_00: our identity is completely wrapped in our work and our title.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: And for all of us, we have a finite season.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: So our seasons begin, they carry on, they end.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: And,
15:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:16
SPEAKER_00: in my context,
15:18
SPEAKER_00: being out of ministry for a season,
15:20
SPEAKER_00: a year and a half,
15:22
SPEAKER_00: there were some definite,
15:23
SPEAKER_00: I knew it was coming,
15:24
SPEAKER_00: but there were definitely some identity issues.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: questioning, like, who am I?
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Is it enough that I'm approved unto God?
15:35
SPEAKER_00: Is it enough that I'm accepted in the beloved?
15:37
SPEAKER_00: Am I an accepted, adopted son?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: And that's enough.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: And it was, it is.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: But if your identity is,
15:46
SPEAKER_00: no,
15:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm a pastor for Christ,
15:50
SPEAKER_00: or I'm this and this for Christ versus just I'm in Christ.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think,
15:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:57
SPEAKER_00: that can become an idol and it can,
15:59
SPEAKER_00: like any good thing that becomes an idol,
16:01
SPEAKER_00: it becomes a,
16:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:03
SPEAKER_00: a God thing,
16:04
SPEAKER_00: which makes it a bad thing.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, those are a couple of things that I've learned.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: I've also learned, you know, sheep bite.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: And we as pastors are also sheep.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: So that means we bite.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: And we are also sheep.
16:20
We are shepherds,
16:21
but we are under the care of the good shepherd,
16:24
the chief shepherd.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so, yes, we represent him.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, but we can also be deeply wounded and deeply hurt.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Um,
16:34
SPEAKER_00: and yeah,
16:35
SPEAKER_00: just to,
16:36
SPEAKER_00: to kind of understand that,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: there's,
16:38
SPEAKER_00: you and I talked about,
16:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:39
SPEAKER_00: death by a thousand cuts,
16:41
SPEAKER_00: um,
16:41
SPEAKER_00: ministry can sometimes be.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: And,
16:42
SPEAKER_00: and as soon as you said that earlier,
16:44
SPEAKER_00: um,
16:45
SPEAKER_00: when we weren't recording yet,
16:46
SPEAKER_00: uh,
16:46
SPEAKER_00: I just thought like,
16:47
SPEAKER_00: yep.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: And usually those cuts are in the back.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:50
And the thing about being stabbed in the back is a knife blade
16:55
is very thin,
16:56
SPEAKER_00: so there's lots of room.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day,
17:00
SPEAKER_00: though,
17:01
we shouldn't be surprised because we're serving the master who
17:06
was betrayed with a
17:07
SPEAKER_00: kiss.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: He was abandoned by his disciples.
17:11
We look at Paul at the end of his ministry,
17:14
and he seems to be like,
17:16
not desperate,
17:16
but
17:17
he's got,
17:18
he's got,
17:18
he's writing Timothy saying,
17:19
you know,
17:20
I've only got Luke with me.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Demas has abandoned me for the present world.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: He loved it.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Um,
17:26
SPEAKER_00: and all these guys have caused me trouble,
17:28
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Timothy bring some clothes and,
17:31
SPEAKER_00: and the parchments.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: I need, I need the word and I need some, some warmth.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: And,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: uh,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: you know what,
17:36
SPEAKER_00: man,
17:36
SPEAKER_00: uh,
17:37
SPEAKER_00: you left me alone with the,
17:38
SPEAKER_00: with the,
17:39
SPEAKER_00: the medical doctor,
17:39
SPEAKER_00: please come.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: I cannot endure another day with this guy.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Um,
17:43
SPEAKER_00: But,
17:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:44
SPEAKER_00: in other words,
17:45
SPEAKER_00: he's in some ways,
17:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:48
SPEAKER_00: isolated and he can look back at many people that he's impacted,
17:52
SPEAKER_00: but also many people that have been,
17:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:55
SPEAKER_00: harmful or hurtful.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's just a reality.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: You know,
17:58
that's a reality that we are going to we are going to hurt
18:00
people and we are going
18:01
SPEAKER_00: to be harmed and hurt.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: But we're not doing it for them.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, we're not in youth ministry serving the youth.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes, they're
18:08
SPEAKER_00: They're sort of a secondary blessing, but we're serving Christ.
18:11
So if it's all done to him and it's for him,
18:16
then it's okay that we're let down.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: And that context could change.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Now we're working with seniors instead of youngsters, you know.
18:25
So,
18:25
yeah,
18:25
those are a couple of things I could go much longer,
18:28
but some thoughts.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: I think that's really good.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: And I also think we read those verses in James,
18:35
SPEAKER_02: like,
18:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:36
SPEAKER_02: count all joy,
18:36
SPEAKER_02: my brothers,
18:37
SPEAKER_02: when you fall into trials of various kinds.
18:39
And I think the green behind your ears sort of seminarian would
18:44
always identify
18:45
SPEAKER_02: those as crises of outside suffering,
18:51
SPEAKER_02: things happening in the world or diseases or deaths,
18:55
SPEAKER_02: loss,
18:55
SPEAKER_02: those types of pains and hurts.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: I think what may...
18:59
shock and may surprise is that the trials of various kinds
19:03
sometimes come from
19:04
SPEAKER_02: within your own flock,
19:05
SPEAKER_02: within your own family.
19:07
And those are the things we don't often think about or we don't
19:11
often have at the
19:12
SPEAKER_02: tip of our tongues or at the forefront of our brains.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: But there are church hurts that come from within the church.
19:18
SPEAKER_02: It's not always...
19:19
external pressures is there's these internal pressures and so
19:22
the trials of various
19:23
kind can include you know crises of identity like you're
19:27
talking about and i think
19:28
that's one thing that i would say too i would just echo that
19:31
sentiment is just we
19:33
are not primarily shepherds first we are primarily we are under
19:39
shepherds yes but i
19:40
SPEAKER_02: think i can't remember who it was but i
19:43
SPEAKER_02: Finding our identity in Christ is so important,
19:47
SPEAKER_02: way more important than I think I ever knew as a young guy,
19:51
SPEAKER_02: that I'm a son of God who happens to be a minister for God,
19:57
SPEAKER_02: not a minister first.
19:58
SPEAKER_02: And that's so simple.
20:00
And it sounds like I'm not trying to be some cliche podcaster
20:03
saying some profound
20:04
SPEAKER_02: thing that's not really that profound.
20:06
But I do think it is profound in the sense that it will shape
20:10
the trajectory of your identity.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: If you think that you're a minister first,
20:16
SPEAKER_02: then over time,
20:17
SPEAKER_02: maybe it won't happen overnight,
20:18
SPEAKER_02: but over time,
20:20
SPEAKER_02: that identity is going to be
20:22
SPEAKER_02: held up by the ways in which you're able to perform,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: so to speak,
20:26
SPEAKER_02: ministerially,
20:27
the ways in which you're able to live and live up to people's
20:33
expectations of you
20:34
SPEAKER_02: as a minister or even your own expectations,
20:37
things that you've either explicitly heard like this is what a
20:40
pastor does or been
20:42
SPEAKER_02: implicitly taught this is what a pastor does.
20:45
And I even,
20:46
you know,
20:46
find myself wrestling those things myself where it's like,
20:48
man,
20:49
I
20:50
SPEAKER_02: how do I manage all these expectations?
20:53
SPEAKER_02: And so that's oftentimes where trials come from,
20:57
SPEAKER_02: where difficulty arises out of,
21:00
SPEAKER_02: which again brings us back to identity in Christ.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: No, you are a son of God.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: You are a child of God who God has called to ministry.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: But
21:13
SPEAKER_02: that son of God, that child of God, that identity comes first.
21:16
And I think that that,
21:17
that everything else kind of bleeds down from there,
21:19
if that makes sense.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:22
Because then your,
21:23
your identity becomes wrapped up in the work that you do.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: So then when you're not working,
21:28
SPEAKER_00: right,
21:28
SPEAKER_00: you're not working now you're,
21:30
SPEAKER_00: you're letting the Lord down or you're,
21:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:33
SPEAKER_00: someone you're letting someone down and something's falling through.
21:35
So,
21:36
yeah,
21:37
I just think that was,
21:37
that was such an important lesson to learn early on is,
21:40
um,
21:41
The work that we're doing,
21:42
it is work,
21:44
but let's keep that in its appropriate lane.
21:47
This is not necessarily the one that we're working for,
21:50
the one that we are empowered by.
21:52
This is effort and sweat and blood and tears and all the
22:00
things,
22:00
but Christ is faithful.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Christ is enough.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: And one day he's called us, in a sense, called us to rest now.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: We enter into that rest we already have through his blood.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: But there is a day coming of complete rest.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: So I think just keeping that in mind.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
22:20
SPEAKER_02: and it reminds me of what,
22:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:21
SPEAKER_02: you kind of almost mentioned it,
22:23
SPEAKER_02: maybe you were thinking of,
22:24
SPEAKER_02: but that verse in 1 Corinthians 15 where Paul's like,
22:26
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:27
SPEAKER_02: I worked harder than everyone.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: I was this really hard worker and apostle for Jesus Christ.
22:35
But all the while he goes on,
22:37
I'm probably butchering the verse,
22:39
but like,
22:40
SPEAKER_02: He goes on and says, like, I knew it was Christ who was working in me.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't really his energy.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: It was the energy,
22:48
SPEAKER_02: we could say,
22:49
of Christ and his word and spirit working through him for the
22:53
benefit and the
22:54
SPEAKER_02: betterment of the churches that he was serving.
22:56
SPEAKER_02: That is such a paradigm-shifting way to look at it because,
23:02
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
23:02
SPEAKER_02: like you're saying,
23:03
SPEAKER_02: ministry is arduous.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: It'll be toilsome.
23:06
It's not,
23:08
you know,
23:08
kick your feet back and take it easy sort of line of work.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: It's...
23:13
It's not an occupation or vocation,
23:15
I should say,
23:16
that you can really fit into that mold.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: But also it's one where a lot of those joys,
23:23
SPEAKER_02: maybe they'll come through tears,
23:25
SPEAKER_02: but they are joys that are deeply felt,
23:27
that are deeply resonant because of who's actually doing the
23:31
work in and through
23:31
SPEAKER_02: you.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: And it's Christ through his word and spirit,
23:34
SPEAKER_02: which is,
23:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
23:36
SPEAKER_02: what a marvel,
23:37
SPEAKER_02: what a mystery that we get to take part in that.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned – well, we'll just kind of get right into it.
23:45
You mentioned being led out of the last place that you were and
23:49
there was some
23:51
SPEAKER_02: difficulty that came along with that.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Can you kind of just share – you can get into however detailed you want,
23:58
SPEAKER_02: but just some of the difficulties with being –
24:02
SPEAKER_02: Maybe led out of a ministry situation that,
24:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
24:06
SPEAKER_02: like maybe beforehand you were like,
24:08
SPEAKER_02: I would never want to leave this.
24:09
But then suddenly that that window or that door sort of shut on
24:14
you and you were
24:15
SPEAKER_02: kind of or maybe it opened.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: But however you want to say the metaphor,
24:19
SPEAKER_02: where it kind of,
24:20
SPEAKER_02: maybe it took you off guard,
24:21
SPEAKER_02: and maybe it shocked you,
24:22
SPEAKER_02: maybe it surprised you.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: And also just how you can see how you saw how God was using it, actually.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: Actually, in the moment, yeah, it sucked.
24:33
SPEAKER_02: It was horrible.
24:36
SPEAKER_02: Um,
24:36
SPEAKER_02: but you know,
24:37
maybe you're a couple of years removed and you can kind of see
24:39
some of the ways in
24:40
SPEAKER_02: which God was already using some of that to better you,
24:44
SPEAKER_02: to maybe strengthen your family or however you,
24:46
SPEAKER_02: you can perceive that.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
24:48
SPEAKER_00: I would,
24:49
SPEAKER_00: I would say thankfully no,
24:53
SPEAKER_00: no,
24:53
SPEAKER_00: um,
24:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:55
SPEAKER_00: no suffering or,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: um,
24:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:59
SPEAKER_00: trial is wasted in the kingdom.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, um, you know, I, I think of Joseph who, um,
25:05
would have recounted you know as he's now prime minister second
25:09
in command over
25:09
egypt under pharaoh and i wonder if he looked back and was like
25:12
wow the dreams are
25:13
now even before that before the dreams were fulfilled uh with
25:17
his brothers and
25:18
father but like you know leading up to that as he's going from
25:23
literally the the
25:24
SPEAKER_00: pit to the palace you know is he thinking like you know the
25:30
SPEAKER_00: is he, is he understanding conceptually Genesis 50 verse 20, right?
25:33
SPEAKER_00: Like before that,
25:34
SPEAKER_00: like after the fact he could say what you meant for evil,
25:38
SPEAKER_00: you know you know,
25:40
SPEAKER_00: God has worked for good.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I think the hard part is when we're in the thick of the,
25:46
SPEAKER_00: of the trial of the,
25:47
SPEAKER_00: the pain,
25:48
SPEAKER_00: the confusion really,
25:49
SPEAKER_00: you know and I think that's the bigger thing is,
25:53
SPEAKER_00: is the confusion in trials.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's why I think,
25:58
SPEAKER_00: Is it Peter or James?
26:02
SPEAKER_00: It's not an alien thing happening.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: I think it's Peter.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: The word is in the Greek, it's like Xenos.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: It's like an alien thing to you.
26:10
Don't be surprised at the painful trial as if something strange
26:14
or alien or obscure
26:16
SPEAKER_00: were happening to you.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: This is not something from the outside that comes in.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: But in the thick of it, we're like, man, this is chaos.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: This is confusing.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what's happening.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: So I think the realization that
26:28
SPEAKER_00: Um,
26:28
SPEAKER_00: God does work all things together for good for those who love him,
26:32
SPEAKER_00: who are called according to his purposes.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: Um,
26:35
SPEAKER_00: that,
26:35
SPEAKER_00: that you talk about cliche,
26:38
SPEAKER_00: we can sometimes,
26:39
SPEAKER_00: um,
26:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:41
SPEAKER_00: misappropriate that verse and just think that,
26:44
SPEAKER_00: um,
26:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:45
SPEAKER_00: God's going to work my,
26:46
SPEAKER_00: uh,
26:47
SPEAKER_00: my flat tire,
26:49
SPEAKER_00: my backache,
26:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:50
SPEAKER_00: but I think in,
26:51
SPEAKER_00: in the bigger cosmic sense of,
26:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:54
SPEAKER_00: where Romans eight is kind of setting that up,
26:56
SPEAKER_00: um,
26:57
SPEAKER_00: like,
26:58
SPEAKER_00: All of creation is groaning.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: All of the tears are going to be wiped away.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: There will be no more mourning.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: That's a cosmic thing.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: And yes, that's a personal thing.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: But to answer your question,
27:09
SPEAKER_00: I think,
27:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:10
SPEAKER_00: looking back at some of the stuff we went through in the moment,
27:12
SPEAKER_00: we were like,
27:13
SPEAKER_00: what is going on?
27:14
SPEAKER_00: We're not sure what's happening.
27:16
We had planted a church with a very kind of specific direction
27:20
and we had brought
27:21
SPEAKER_00: on some leadership and sort of we're
27:27
reforming in a little bit of a different direction than we
27:29
started out with.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: And that just theologically caused tension.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then relationally there was not a lot of trust.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: So, um, are you familiar with Patrick?
27:39
I can't remember how to say his last name,
27:40
Lencioni,
27:41
the five dysfunctions of a team.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Are you familiar with that?
27:45
SPEAKER_02: I've heard of that book.
27:45
SPEAKER_02: I've not read it.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: So it's, it's, it's a great read.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: It's real quick, but, um, he basically builds this idea that the
27:54
The baseline for any team,
27:56
and you can apply this in ministry or in work dynamics.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: And he's more,
28:01
SPEAKER_00: he's not necessarily doing this from a Christian perspective,
28:03
SPEAKER_00: but more for like work team dynamics.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: But the baseline, the foundation of this pyramid is...
28:12
SPEAKER_00: We have to have trust.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: And when that is eroded or evaded or never built,
28:17
you have an absence of trust and an absence of trust leads
28:20
people to artificial
28:21
SPEAKER_00: harmony.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: And so he kind of develops that idea.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: But but that's essentially what we had.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: We had.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: And I think everyone who.
28:28
was involved in the situation could watch this right now and
28:32
nod their head and
28:33
SPEAKER_00: say,
28:33
SPEAKER_00: there was definitely like a lack of trust,
28:36
SPEAKER_00: a lack of trust with me,
28:37
SPEAKER_00: me with a lack of trust with our,
28:39
SPEAKER_00: some of our leaders and some folks.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: And so,
28:41
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
28:42
it essentially came to a head where there were accusations
28:47
thrown and just a very,
28:49
SPEAKER_00: very traumatic situation,
28:51
SPEAKER_00: especially for my wife who was involved in some of it.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: And so,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: For me, it was more, we've got to handle this biblically.
29:01
We have to handle this disagreement in a way that honors
29:06
Matthew 18 in a way that,
29:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:08
SPEAKER_00: I think it was interpreted as,
29:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:11
SPEAKER_00: the process.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: All we care about is the process when really it's like,
29:14
SPEAKER_00: well,
29:15
SPEAKER_00: if it's unbiblical,
29:17
if we're doing things unbiblical and we're not honoring even
29:19
like some of the
29:20
SPEAKER_00: confessions,
29:20
SPEAKER_00: like the,
29:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:21
SPEAKER_00: the 1689,
29:21
SPEAKER_00: then that can,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: then what are we doing?
29:25
If we're not going to honor the word or even the confession
29:27
that we ascribe to
29:28
SPEAKER_00: hold,
29:29
SPEAKER_00: uphold,
29:30
SPEAKER_00: then,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: what are we doing?
29:31
So again,
29:33
I think it comes down to,
29:35
you know,
29:35
a disagreement of interpreting certain verses.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: And,
29:40
SPEAKER_00: and that's a real thing,
29:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:41
SPEAKER_00: that,
29:41
SPEAKER_00: that,
29:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:43
SPEAKER_00: doctrine unites us and it also divides.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think the dividing part is that bad.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: I think,
29:49
There's a reason why we don't fellowship with the Church of
29:52
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
29:54
There's a reason why we don't fellowship with the Kingdom Hall
29:58
folks that come to
29:58
SPEAKER_00: our door and invite us on Saturdays.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: And so doctrine unites us, but it also divides.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think that can be a good thing,
30:08
SPEAKER_00: like I just mentioned,
30:09
SPEAKER_00: but it can also be tragic where we,
30:14
SPEAKER_00: like the Pharisees,
30:15
SPEAKER_00: strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: So for us,
30:19
SPEAKER_00: it was like,
30:20
SPEAKER_00: all right,
30:21
SPEAKER_00: I can in good conscience continue on,
30:25
SPEAKER_00: even at the church we planted,
30:27
if we're not just going to honor the basic building blocks of
30:32
Matthew 18 and church
30:33
SPEAKER_00: discipline and whatnot.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: So I resigned, just very sad, didn't want to do it.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Also didn't want to strong arm our leadership and demand anything.
30:45
SPEAKER_00: I just don't think
30:46
SPEAKER_00: That's the example of Christ.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: He's standing before his accusers and he doesn't,
30:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:52
SPEAKER_00: call out their sins,
30:54
SPEAKER_00: which would have been very easy.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: And so instead he,
30:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:57
SPEAKER_00: he's meek and he,
31:00
SPEAKER_00: and so I think,
31:01
I think that was what I was trying to respond with is let's do
31:04
this wisely and
31:05
SPEAKER_00: Christ-like and we don't have to defend ourselves.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: There's a different narrative out there that is,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: is,
31:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:11
SPEAKER_00: not real,
31:12
SPEAKER_00: not right,
31:12
SPEAKER_00: but we're not going to try to go and fight that.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: Very challenging time for us,
31:19
SPEAKER_00: but in God's providence,
31:21
SPEAKER_00: what was really cool is even before all of this came out,
31:24
SPEAKER_00: about a week before,
31:26
SPEAKER_00: it seemed like my wife and I had this different,
31:30
SPEAKER_00: it's the hard thing,
31:31
SPEAKER_00: like following the Lord,
31:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:34
SPEAKER_00: when do you know he's redirecting you?
31:37
SPEAKER_00: And so for us, it was just conversation and
31:42
SPEAKER_00: prayer, just sort of a sensing and then knocking on those doors.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: So I actually like I'm being cryptic here,
31:49
SPEAKER_00: but my wife was like,
31:50
SPEAKER_00: you just finished your master's degree.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm proud of you.
31:53
I think you should go for your doctorate and we should
31:56
transition out of pastoral,
31:57
SPEAKER_00: you being a pastor out of pastoral ministry and into academia.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: And just, I love developing people.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: I love training.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: That's my bread and butter.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: So I,
32:08
SPEAKER_00: To do that, I would want a doctor.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: I want a doctor in ministry.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: So where do we go?
32:12
And so literally we talked about Midwestern and really fond of
32:16
their program there
32:17
SPEAKER_00: with their D-men.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: We talked about RTS.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: We talked about a bunch of different places,
32:22
SPEAKER_00: but we sort of landed with Southeastern as an idea in Wake Forest,
32:29
SPEAKER_00: North Carolina.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: And incidentally,
32:31
one of my elders who helped us plant the church had moved there
32:35
about four,
32:36
SPEAKER_00: during COVID,
32:36
SPEAKER_00: about four years prior.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: And of course, my dad lived there.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
32:42
SPEAKER_00: we were already ready,
32:44
SPEAKER_00: sort of locked and loaded to meet with the elders and kind of tell them,
32:48
SPEAKER_00: hey,
32:48
SPEAKER_00: and the deacons and say,
32:49
SPEAKER_00: hey,
32:50
SPEAKER_00: we're praying about this this summer.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: And then when all this happened, it was
32:53
It was like,
32:53
well,
32:54
I guess,
32:55
you know,
32:55
I guess it's time to move a little sooner than summer.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: So a very difficult season,
33:02
SPEAKER_00: wrought with a lot of pain and a lot of confusion,
33:05
SPEAKER_00: I think is one of the big words.
33:08
But in the midst of it now,
33:09
again,
33:10
now we can look back and say,
33:11
oh,
33:11
okay.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: The Lord was redirecting us to get out of ministry for a season,
33:17
SPEAKER_00: to sort of work on our hearts and healing and to get us maybe indirectly,
33:23
SPEAKER_00: You know,
33:24
SPEAKER_00: like God could have prevented the famine in Joseph's day,
33:29
SPEAKER_00: but it was,
33:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:30
SPEAKER_00: when you look at the summary of what happened to Joseph,
33:33
SPEAKER_00: like in the Psalms,
33:35
SPEAKER_00: this is,
33:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:37
SPEAKER_00: generations later,
33:38
SPEAKER_00: hundreds of years later,
33:40
David's summary is that this was how the Lord was going to
33:43
deliver Israel.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:46
And so,
33:46
you know,
33:47
the line of Messiah is not through Joseph,
33:49
it's through Judah.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: So what was the whole thing about Joseph?
33:52
SPEAKER_00: The whole story was God's,
33:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:56
SPEAKER_00: sort of indirect way of caring for Israel during that famine.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: And God could have prevented the famine.
34:03
But,
34:03
you know,
34:04
there's always those questions,
34:05
I think,
34:06
when we endure hardship or hurt.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: We're like, why did this happen?
34:11
SPEAKER_00: And Paul would admonish us, you don't ask why.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: because God's doing that in Israel, right?
34:16
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't make a lot of sense.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: We ask who, you know, 2 Corinthians 1.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: We despaired of life,
34:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
34:24
SPEAKER_00: but we are able to comfort others with the same comfort we've received.
34:28
So whenever my wife gets tempted to ask that or our kids,
34:31
why do we go through that,
34:32
Dad?
34:33
SPEAKER_00: I can say, no, wrong question.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not why, it's who.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: But really, who are we going to be used by the Lord to comfort?
34:42
SPEAKER_00: how will the Lord use this again,
34:45
SPEAKER_00: not,
34:45
SPEAKER_00: not to build a platform or some message,
34:48
SPEAKER_00: but there's literally going to be people that need ministry.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: And we can say,
34:52
SPEAKER_00: I was comforted by the Holy spirit,
34:54
SPEAKER_00: by the Lord in a very,
34:56
SPEAKER_00: very real way in that hardship.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know exactly what you're going through.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: But this is what God comforted me with his truth.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: Now I can comfort you with that same comfort that I've received.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: So it's not a why it's a who.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: So in the midst of all that, we're,
35:12
SPEAKER_00: you know, thanking God and humbled.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: And we thought it would be longer, a longer season.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: We didn't think we'd be back in ministry as soon.
35:21
And we've even had some of the challenges of like,
35:24
okay,
35:25
can we get back in ministry this quick?
35:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, are our hearts ready?
35:30
Obviously the Lord sees we're,
35:32
we're fit for it,
35:33
but are we,
35:34
are we,
35:34
are we there mentally?
35:36
SPEAKER_00: So that's been the more bigger challenge as of late.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: There's a heaviness to what you've just elaborated on,
35:46
SPEAKER_02: but I also think there's a grace to it too,
35:48
SPEAKER_02: in just the sense that you can perceive maybe some of what God's doing.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: I think that's always the challenge, right?
35:55
SPEAKER_02: We don't have the perception to see God's providence in real time,
36:01
SPEAKER_02: and maybe even sometimes not even in hindsight.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: It only comes as God reveals that to us.
36:08
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't.
36:11
SPEAKER_02: But I think what you're saying is so apt and so true.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: It's not the why or the what's occurred, but the who that is behind it.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: Maybe not even behind it all at the time,
36:22
SPEAKER_02: but just the who that it's directing our hearts towards.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: You know, the verse that you mentioned is in 1 Peter, 1 Peter 4.12 says,
36:30
SPEAKER_02: And he says,
36:31
SPEAKER_02: beloved,
36:31
do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you
36:35
to test you as though
36:36
SPEAKER_02: something strange were happening to you.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: Something strange is that word, Xenos, foreign, it's alien.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes it is.
36:45
SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes trials are foreign to us.
36:48
SPEAKER_02: At least that's how we respond to them.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: That's how we react to them.
36:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think your word there is very apt confusion.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: These strange alien things often are the most confusing things of all.
37:02
SPEAKER_02: We have no idea what those UAPs are, UFOs or whatever.
37:05
SPEAKER_02: It's confusing.
37:06
SPEAKER_02: We have no idea what to do with them.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: We have no idea how to make sense of them.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: Is this...
37:11
you know,
37:11
I don't want to get as rabbit trailed on some,
37:13
you know,
37:13
conspiracy theory.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: Is this,
37:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
37:15
SPEAKER_02: a government conspiracy or is this just a glitch in the camera or what's,
37:20
SPEAKER_02: I think we can view suffering in the same way.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: Like what kind of glitch is this?
37:25
SPEAKER_02: What kind of, this is not supposed to be here.
37:28
SPEAKER_02: And I think Peter's words are apt because they're not just Peter's.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: They come from real suffering.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: And he realized he's realized probably better than a lot of disciples.
37:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:38
that this stuff is not strange to disciples of God,
37:43
to disciples of Christ.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: But I also think whenever someone mentions stuff like this,
37:48
SPEAKER_02: especially when it's like confusion and suffering and trial,
37:52
SPEAKER_02: and also we could say disagreement within a church setting,
37:56
SPEAKER_02: it always makes me think of Acts 16,
37:59
SPEAKER_02: or I should say Acts 15 and 16,
38:02
SPEAKER_02: when Paul and Barnabas have their very infamous split between
38:07
SPEAKER_02: And I did a long study on that one time to try and because,
38:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
38:10
SPEAKER_02: people are always like,
38:11
SPEAKER_02: who was right?
38:11
SPEAKER_02: Was it Barnabas?
38:12
SPEAKER_02: Was it Paul?
38:13
SPEAKER_02: And I think the best answer is they both were.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: They were both right.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: And whether you're siding with Paul or Barnabas,
38:20
I don't think really matters as much as the fact that I always
38:24
try and picture,
38:26
SPEAKER_02: you know,
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Joe Schmo,
38:27
SPEAKER_02: Jane Doe in the pews in Jerusalem.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: What a confusing time that must have been for them.
38:33
SPEAKER_02: What a confusing time.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: Even for the Galatian churches,
38:38
SPEAKER_02: like Paul and Barnabas,
38:40
SPEAKER_02: they had just come home from ministering in that area of Galatia,
38:45
SPEAKER_02: those churches up there.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: And then they come home,
38:48
and those two superstar missionaries now have this very public
38:54
ministerial divorce.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: What do those churches think about what they had just heard?
39:01
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's why,
39:03
SPEAKER_02: whether it was Paul's ambition or not,
39:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure,
39:08
but we do know that those are the exact same churches that he
39:11
goes back and visits
39:13
SPEAKER_02: on the next visit with Silas and eventually with Timothy.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:18
SPEAKER_02: And it's also not by accident.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: Number one,
39:19
SPEAKER_02: not just because of the Jerusalem Council,
39:21
SPEAKER_02: but number two,
39:21
SPEAKER_02: I think,
39:23
SPEAKER_02: maybe because he wanted to reaffirm what he was just teaching.
39:28
Like,
39:28
hey,
39:29
this other stuff,
39:30
it doesn't affect the abiding truth of the word.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: This is what matters.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: you know, stick to this, cling to this.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: This is the,
39:38
SPEAKER_02: yes,
39:38
SPEAKER_02: the doctrine of justification that they just talked about in Jerusalem,
39:41
SPEAKER_02: but also the fact that this revelation,
39:44
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:44
SPEAKER_02: the Greek word,
39:45
SPEAKER_02: the kerygma,
39:46
SPEAKER_02: the proclamation of the truth of Jesus,
39:49
SPEAKER_02: this is what matters.
39:51
SPEAKER_02: Whether,
39:51
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:52
SPEAKER_02: me and Barnabas are chummy or not,
39:55
SPEAKER_02: that isn't as,
39:56
SPEAKER_02: that's not as eternal,
39:59
SPEAKER_02: it's not as weighty.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: It's weighing on people, but
40:03
I always go back to that time because I think,
40:04
man,
40:04
how confusing that must have been.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: And I think what rises to the surface out of that,
40:10
SPEAKER_02: obviously,
40:10
SPEAKER_02: is just it's it's the truth of the word.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: That's that's what matters.
40:15
And may we whether we,
40:19
you know,
40:20
sort of have to die to our ambitions or dreams or aspirations.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: Or not.
40:29
SPEAKER_02: I always go back to that phrase, 3 John.
40:30
SPEAKER_02: I think it's verse 7.
40:32
SPEAKER_02: 3 John 7 or whatever.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: It's for the sake of the name.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: And I love that phrase.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: I think that's the King James way of saying it.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: But for the sake of the name, they were doing what they were doing.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: And I always think about that.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't really matter.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: For the sake of the name, let all the cards fall where they may.
40:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think even in the confusing times, I think that's true.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: And you're right.
40:57
So so that's a great example of,
41:01
you know,
41:01
it's not a it's not a black or white issue.
41:05
So,
41:07
you know,
41:07
John Mark,
41:08
we could deduce from that situation that he he bailed.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: He left on the missions trip and just he bailed.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: He's not he's not trustworthy.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: So but that's not a black or white sin issue.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: And so I think,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: if we're diagnosing an electrical,
41:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:25
SPEAKER_00: there's an electrical shortage that caused a fire.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, someone could come in and they could say, let me diagnose this.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: Here's what went wrong.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Literally, this cable was not connected.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: That is that's what caused the fire.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: When we talk about torture and disagreements that.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: where there, there really could be sin and misunderstanding all around.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not as diagnosable as a, you know what I mean?
41:47
SPEAKER_00: An electrical short circuit.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: So you've, you've got dynamics there where, you know, you've, you've,
41:54
SPEAKER_00: Again, you've got leadership that could have made a mistake.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: You've got the congregation that could have made a mistake.
41:59
You've got nuances between communicating and hurt feelings and
42:03
misunderstanding.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: So there's all that's in the mix.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think you're right.
42:07
The bigger picture is for the sake of the name,
42:09
you know,
42:10
for Christ's glory.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: And of course,
42:11
you see the the eventual restoration of John Mark there at the
42:17
end of same same
42:18
SPEAKER_00: area,
42:19
SPEAKER_00: Second Timothy.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, Paul saying he's useful.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: He's useful to me in ministry.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: He wasn't useful for a little while.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, you see that restoration, which I'm so thankful for.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm so thankful we get that little glint of like,
42:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:34
SPEAKER_00: there's some sort of,
42:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:36
SPEAKER_00: restoration that happened.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: We don't see it with Barnabas.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: We don't actually hear from Barnabas, I don't think, again.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: in the scripture after that,
42:43
SPEAKER_00: uh,
42:43
SPEAKER_00: at all,
42:43
SPEAKER_00: he just sort of fades into obscurity,
42:45
SPEAKER_00: but I'm just so thankful.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: We did get a little bit of restoration with John Mark.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: So, um, I mean, that's what we want to see.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: We don't,
42:52
SPEAKER_00: we don't want to see,
42:52
SPEAKER_00: uh,
42:53
SPEAKER_00: hopefully people don't want to see arguments and in,
42:57
SPEAKER_00: uh,
42:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:58
SPEAKER_00: devastation,
43:00
SPEAKER_00: but in,
43:00
SPEAKER_00: um,
43:01
SPEAKER_00: in restoration.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: So that's the,
43:03
SPEAKER_00: that's the hard part with,
43:05
SPEAKER_00: with people,
43:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:06
SPEAKER_00: again,
43:06
SPEAKER_00: we're not dealing with clinical now.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it is, I mean, if,
43:09
SPEAKER_00: If a guy is committing adultery and he's unrepentant,
43:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
43:14
SPEAKER_00: that is actually a little easier to diagnose like an electrical shortage.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: But when it's just nuance and hurt feelings and he said,
43:22
SPEAKER_00: she said,
43:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:24
SPEAKER_00: it just becomes there.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: There's my point is there's nuance and dynamics that are that are deep.
43:30
SPEAKER_02: So the other point that I wanted to maybe unpack if we can,
43:34
but is because I've thought a lot about this being I'm six
43:39
years into ministry and
43:42
SPEAKER_02: going through or seeing what occurred with my mom was really,
43:45
SPEAKER_02: you know,
43:47
SPEAKER_02: I should probably explain because we were talking beforehand.
43:50
But maybe if you're just jumping into the podcast,
43:51
you have no idea what I'm talking about.
43:53
But,
43:53
you know,
43:53
my mom,
43:54
she had this very devastating mental health collapse.
43:57
SPEAKER_02: She's been, you know, involved with my dad's ministry for 30 years.
44:01
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, 30 odd years of pastoral ministry, all I have to say.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: When I saw what happened with my mom,
44:08
SPEAKER_02: I was obviously,
44:09
and it was kind of like preceding my entry into ministry where
44:14
I am now in
44:15
SPEAKER_02: Pennsylvania.
44:16
SPEAKER_02: And so it was kind of,
44:19
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: It was on my heart,
44:21
SPEAKER_02: this notion of,
44:22
SPEAKER_02: quote unquote,
44:22
SPEAKER_02: protecting my wife who is,
44:25
SPEAKER_02: you know,
44:25
SPEAKER_02: with me in ministry,
44:26
but she's also I just feel like sometimes pastors wives don't
44:33
have the quote
44:33
unquote voice that maybe they should or maybe other people in
44:38
the church have.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: And so my question to you was,
44:42
SPEAKER_02: as you were going through this really devastating time,
44:46
SPEAKER_02: surprising time,
44:46
SPEAKER_02: where maybe it did feel strange and confusing,
44:49
what were some ways that either you ministered to your wife or
44:53
your wife was
44:53
SPEAKER_02: ministered to?
44:56
SPEAKER_02: Because I think sometimes,
44:57
SPEAKER_02: and I think,
44:59
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
45:00
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to speak for my wife Natalie,
45:01
SPEAKER_02: but I think she would echo that,
45:02
SPEAKER_02: like,
45:02
SPEAKER_02: sometimes the pastor's wives are just kind of there.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: And that's not really unfortunate, like...
45:08
SPEAKER_02: I've always thought,
45:09
SPEAKER_02: and I don't know what the answer to this is,
45:11
but I've always thought for as many networks and resources that
45:15
we have for
45:16
SPEAKER_02: pastors—
45:18
SPEAKER_02: Like there is a like there's a dearth in the market.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm not like, you know, trying to, you know, trademark this.
45:24
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, whoever publisher wants to do it, fine.
45:27
But like there's a dearth in the market for pastor's wife
45:29
resources in terms of
45:31
SPEAKER_02: like how do they understand their calling?
45:36
SPEAKER_02: And are they called or are they just kind of there like beside that?
45:39
SPEAKER_02: Like how all lots of nuance and dynamic there.
45:42
But anyways,
45:42
how how were you or how was someone able to minister to your
45:46
wife?
45:47
Because she's seeing you're hurt from afar,
45:51
which is always an interesting situation.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: I'll be quiet in a second.
45:57
But I always remember when my mom was going through her very,
46:01
very sharp and severe depression.
46:03
It's really interesting to me because depression is one of the
46:07
things I kind of
46:08
SPEAKER_02: liken it to secondhand smoke where you're seeing it,
46:12
SPEAKER_02: but you're also feeling the effects of it.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: And you are not always able to do anything about it.
46:18
And that's kind of the same thing for pastor's wives as they
46:21
watch their husbands.
46:23
go through really difficult ruts and gutters of pastoral
46:28
ministry where they're
46:29
seeing it and they're feeling the effects of it and they don't
46:32
really have any
46:33
SPEAKER_02: ability to do anything about it,
46:35
SPEAKER_02: per se.
46:35
SPEAKER_02: So anyways, that that was a long rambling question, but no, that's
46:40
No,
46:40
that's a great analogy,
46:41
the secondhand smoke,
46:42
uh,
46:42
to observe it and to be impacted by it.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think we should, we should brand this book.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: We should call it beside the ox.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: Um,
46:52
SPEAKER_00: my wife and I talked about writing that book years ago,
46:54
SPEAKER_00: beside the ox,
46:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:56
SPEAKER_00: cause you're,
46:56
SPEAKER_00: you're,
46:57
SPEAKER_00: um,
46:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:59
SPEAKER_00: we would hold that,
47:00
SPEAKER_00: that women are not called to pastoral ministry in the gender sense.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: Right.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: Um,
47:06
SPEAKER_00: elders reserved for males.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: But you're also,
47:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:11
SPEAKER_00: we also have this terminology throughout the New Testament of yoking,
47:15
SPEAKER_00: right?
47:15
SPEAKER_00: Marriage is a yoking, especially in 1 Corinthians.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: So he's plowing,
47:19
SPEAKER_00: yes,
47:19
SPEAKER_00: in life,
47:19
SPEAKER_00: but also in ministry,
47:20
SPEAKER_00: he's plowing and she's yoked,
47:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:23
SPEAKER_00: pastor's wife is yoked to her husband.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: And so, yes, her depression, her discouragements or his burnout, his
47:31
SPEAKER_00: sin, his, uh, joy, all of those things as you're plowing together.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: He's the ox doing the bulk of the plowing,
47:39
SPEAKER_00: um,
47:39
SPEAKER_00: pastorally,
47:40
SPEAKER_00: but,
47:41
SPEAKER_00: uh,
47:41
SPEAKER_00: to just eliminate the wife's,
47:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:44
SPEAKER_00: uh,
47:45
SPEAKER_00: perspective,
47:45
SPEAKER_00: role,
47:46
SPEAKER_00: counsel,
47:47
SPEAKER_00: um,
47:48
SPEAKER_00: her health in every sense of that word,
47:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:51
SPEAKER_00: uh,
47:51
SPEAKER_00: to,
47:51
SPEAKER_00: to forget about that or to minimize that is foolish.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think, um,
47:57
SPEAKER_00: I made some big grand mistakes with my wife that,
48:01
SPEAKER_00: that,
48:01
SPEAKER_00: um,
48:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:03
SPEAKER_00: are,
48:03
SPEAKER_00: are a big thing that I've learned,
48:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:06
SPEAKER_00: through all of this.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, the big thing that I learned was that I, I didn't give her a voice.
48:11
Um,
48:11
so the situation,
48:12
you know,
48:12
involved accusations that involves,
48:14
um,
48:15
you know,
48:15
um,
48:17
SPEAKER_00: a variety of different things with people making,
48:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:22
judgments or statements and her not having the opportunity to
48:26
even address those.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: And that's part of why I resigned was she didn't,
48:30
SPEAKER_00: she didn't get approached as a member of the church who deserves,
48:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:36
SPEAKER_00: if she sinned,
48:36
SPEAKER_00: give her an opportunity to,
48:38
SPEAKER_00: to talk to the person she sent against allegedly.
48:42
And,
48:43
and that just wasn't afforded to her because of these people's
48:46
perspective on,
48:48
SPEAKER_00: you know, sin and leadership in the home.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: They basically felt like the husband,
48:52
SPEAKER_00: the man is the one responsible,
48:56
SPEAKER_00: which at the end of the day,
48:57
SPEAKER_00: yes,
48:58
SPEAKER_00: I am responsible.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: But Matthew 18 doesn't say if your brother or sister sins,
49:02
SPEAKER_00: well,
49:03
SPEAKER_00: just if your brother,
49:03
SPEAKER_00: because if your sister sins against you,
49:05
SPEAKER_00: you can bypass her and go directly to her husband.
49:09
So,
49:10
you know,
49:10
the Deuteronomy,
49:11
the old school,
49:12
the soul who sins will die.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: You know, in other words, it's not
49:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:16
SPEAKER_00: your father will be responsible,
49:18
SPEAKER_00: but you will,
49:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:19
SPEAKER_00: be responsible for your own sin.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: All that to be said, I didn't give her a voice.
49:24
Um,
49:25
I sort of overreacted and said,
49:27
well,
49:27
we're not gonna,
49:28
we're not gonna do this.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna do that.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna do this instead of allowing her to just process things.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: And,
49:34
SPEAKER_00: um,
49:35
SPEAKER_00: and for her to initiate some of the things she could have initiated,
49:39
SPEAKER_00: I sort of shut all that down.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I, I just, you know, I told her, you know, if a, if a,
49:45
burglar broke into our home and I stood idly by and allowed
49:50
that to take place.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: I have to own that.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: But if she's waking me up screaming,
49:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:57
SPEAKER_00: and I'm just shushing her,
50:00
SPEAKER_00: then,
50:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:01
SPEAKER_00: she at least had the opportunity to raise her voice.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: And so we can go back,
50:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:05
SPEAKER_00: even years ago,
50:07
SPEAKER_00: some of the things she was voicing,
50:08
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't paying attention to.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: And so I've learned to now,
50:14
SPEAKER_00: Um,
50:14
SPEAKER_00: and I'm still learning,
50:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:15
SPEAKER_00: by God's grace,
50:16
SPEAKER_00: but,
50:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:17
SPEAKER_00: to give,
50:18
SPEAKER_00: to give a better,
50:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:19
SPEAKER_00: listening ear,
50:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:20
SPEAKER_00: there's those moments where Abraham,
50:22
SPEAKER_00: uh,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: did not regard the voice of his wife.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: Um,
50:25
SPEAKER_00: and that was,
50:26
SPEAKER_00: that was wise,
50:27
SPEAKER_00: but there are times that he,
50:29
SPEAKER_00: he needed to heed the voice of Sarah and,
50:31
SPEAKER_00: um,
50:32
SPEAKER_00: and doing so was wise.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: So,
50:34
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
50:34
SPEAKER_00: so that's kind of where,
50:35
SPEAKER_00: um,
50:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:37
SPEAKER_00: I think I could have really allowed her to,
50:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:41
SPEAKER_00: um,
50:42
SPEAKER_00: sort of have a voice in the whole situation, really.
50:47
SPEAKER_02: And what are some ways in which you would say that you,
50:51
SPEAKER_02: like,
50:52
SPEAKER_02: you've kind of been through this and you're,
50:54
SPEAKER_02: you know,
50:55
SPEAKER_02: maybe doing some writing,
50:56
SPEAKER_02: just thinking about it and trying to process it.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: What are some ways in which,
51:00
SPEAKER_02: like,
51:02
SPEAKER_02: you don't want to,
51:03
SPEAKER_02: like,
51:04
SPEAKER_02: show a young seminarian how the sausage is made,
51:06
SPEAKER_02: so to speak,
51:07
SPEAKER_02: but sometimes you do want to...
51:10
you know,
51:11
remove some of the gloss that they might have from pastoral
51:14
ministry.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: So what are some things that you would say,
51:15
SPEAKER_02: here's this from this situation that I can tell you,
51:21
SPEAKER_02: like,
51:22
SPEAKER_02: like this is not par for the course,
51:24
SPEAKER_02: but this is,
51:25
SPEAKER_02: this is not something that you should always expect,
51:28
SPEAKER_02: but here's some things that you can prepare for or like,
51:31
SPEAKER_02: like,
51:31
SPEAKER_02: does that make sense what I'm trying to get at?
51:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: I think, um,
51:38
SPEAKER_00: So ways that you could apply what we went through to pastoral advice.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: I think,
51:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:46
SPEAKER_00: this is sort of way bigger picture,
51:48
SPEAKER_00: but I think if you're planting a church,
51:51
SPEAKER_00: there's room for reforming your doctrine or your practice,
51:56
SPEAKER_00: but maybe have that dialed in before.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've talked to some friends who
52:03
SPEAKER_00: have just decided midstream, like, hey, we are not Baptist anymore.
52:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a big change.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, we believe in, you know, paedo-baptism.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: That's a huge change.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: And so if you have built your congregation,
52:17
SPEAKER_00: well,
52:17
SPEAKER_00: the Lord's building it,
52:18
SPEAKER_00: but,
52:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:19
SPEAKER_00: if you've been laboring to,
52:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:23
SPEAKER_00: feed and sustain a congregation on a specific doctrine that
52:28
SPEAKER_00: But then you're going to completely,
52:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:30
SPEAKER_00: um,
52:31
SPEAKER_00: and again,
52:31
SPEAKER_00: there's room for reforming your,
52:33
SPEAKER_00: your theology and,
52:35
SPEAKER_00: and hopefully you're always doing that.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: Like just, you know, uh, testing and approving it.
52:39
SPEAKER_00: But if you're going to change something,
52:41
like expect that that's going to cause people who bought into
52:45
those doctrines to
52:47
SPEAKER_00: want to push back or leave,
52:48
SPEAKER_00: like just expect that.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, don't be, don't be surprised by that.
52:52
Um,
52:53
so I think that's a,
52:53
that's a big thing,
52:54
bigger picture,
52:55
you know,
52:56
um,
52:57
SPEAKER_00: is kind of know what you believe.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think another big thing is just having outside accountability.
53:08
So one huge thing that would have been avoided in our situation
53:12
in particular is
53:13
SPEAKER_00: and I think,
53:14
SPEAKER_00: again,
53:14
SPEAKER_00: everyone on every side could agree with this,
53:16
SPEAKER_00: is there is great value no matter what your ecclesiology or your polity,
53:20
SPEAKER_00: no matter what,
53:22
SPEAKER_00: it's very wise to have an outside group of accountability,
53:25
SPEAKER_00: both for you as a pastor and for top-line issues with your congregation.
53:33
So you may not be Presbyterian and have the Presbyterian to
53:38
kind of rely on.
53:40
SPEAKER_00: That's okay if you're a 1689 Baptist,
53:43
SPEAKER_00: They would use the language of messenger.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: You've got,
53:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
53:46
like-minded messengers who can step in and not necessarily make
53:50
the bigger
53:51
SPEAKER_00: decisions,
53:51
SPEAKER_00: but there,
53:51
SPEAKER_00: there is a sounding board and can offer counsel and advice.
53:55
SPEAKER_00: I think that's, that's a key thing.
53:56
SPEAKER_00: Um,
53:58
SPEAKER_00: today we have sort of the CEO,
54:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:01
SPEAKER_00: uh,
54:01
SPEAKER_00: pastor model,
54:02
SPEAKER_00: the,
54:02
SPEAKER_00: the,
54:04
SPEAKER_00: um,
54:04
SPEAKER_00: the,
54:04
SPEAKER_00: the loan,
54:06
SPEAKER_00: the loan,
54:07
SPEAKER_00: uh,
54:08
SPEAKER_00: ranger,
54:08
SPEAKER_00: you know what I mean?
54:09
SPEAKER_00: We've got the, um,
54:10
SPEAKER_00: The Moses model.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: And the thing that's funny is like even Moses completely relied on.
54:15
He may have been the primary speaker,
54:17
but he even had someone who also was a primary speaker.
54:20
SPEAKER_00: He had lots of people,
54:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:22
SPEAKER_00: in Exodus was at 18 at Jethro's advice to,
54:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:28
SPEAKER_00: have a lot of great men raised up around him.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: to handle a bulk of the work.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: He would handle some of the bigger things, but a bulk of the work.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: So even if you don't hold to plurality of elders,
54:36
SPEAKER_00: there's still wisdom in having,
54:39
SPEAKER_00: even Moses had Jethro,
54:40
SPEAKER_00: who was an outside counsel.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think that would have been a big help.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're asking,
54:48
SPEAKER_00: but as far as family dynamics,
54:51
SPEAKER_00: I also think if you're going through hardship as a pastor,
54:55
SPEAKER_00: be willing to just
54:59
SPEAKER_00: Make any decision necessary for the health of your family.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: I knew that if I didn't resign, it would have destroyed my wife.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: It would have destroyed my credible witness with my family,
55:11
SPEAKER_00: which would have destroyed my family.
55:13
SPEAKER_00: It's already tense enough as a pastor dad, you know, to...
55:19
encourage your kids in their faith to not bludgeon them with
55:23
the expectations.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: We would come to church and,
55:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:26
SPEAKER_00: kids would say to my kids and at their Christian school,
55:29
SPEAKER_00: like,
55:30
SPEAKER_00: oh,
55:30
SPEAKER_00: you're a pastor's kid.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: So whatever that means,
55:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:34
SPEAKER_00: it may mean,
55:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:35
SPEAKER_00: you're a tyrant or it may mean you're supposed to be perfect.
55:40
Whatever that expectation is,
55:42
you know,
55:43
we always told our kids,
55:44
yes,
55:45
you are a PK.
55:46
SPEAKER_00: Yep, that is true.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: You're a PK, pilgrim's kid.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: And there's no expectation.
55:53
I might say something more like,
55:55
we don't do that as a family because we're in Christ.
55:59
So that behavior that you just had is not representative of our
56:02
family because
56:03
SPEAKER_00: that's not what we do as Christians.
56:05
SPEAKER_00: We're followers of God.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: But it's not, hey, you don't do that because you're the pastor's kid.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm a pastor and you're not.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: So I think giving space for your family to process things
56:17
SPEAKER_00: you know, things and to slow things and to make any decision, right.
56:20
SPEAKER_00: Even if it means laying down the awesome ministry that you planted and,
56:23
SPEAKER_00: or you're a missionary,
56:24
SPEAKER_00: you got to come off the field forever.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: If it's, I mean, what are we talking about here?
56:29
SPEAKER_00: What's the trade-off?
56:30
SPEAKER_00: Like there's no way you'll make a,
56:33
SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes we pit the two against one another,
56:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:36
SPEAKER_00: what's the higher priority ministry or family.
56:39
And again,
56:40
if we're,
56:40
if we're defining ministry as work that we do as unto Christ,
56:46
then we really can't pit the two against each other,
56:47
nor would we want to.
56:50
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
56:51
being willing to lay down anything to make sure that our family
56:55
is cared for,
56:57
SPEAKER_00: I think is a huge learn.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: And I would just caution guys against,
57:02
SPEAKER_00: well,
57:03
SPEAKER_00: I know it's not good for my kids,
57:04
SPEAKER_00: it's not good for my wife.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying,
57:06
SPEAKER_00: okay,
57:06
I'm quitting pastoral ministry a year in because they want to
57:09
start a Wednesday
57:10
SPEAKER_00: service and I don't like
57:12
SPEAKER_00: stuff during the week.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that,
57:14
SPEAKER_00: but,
57:14
SPEAKER_00: um,
57:15
SPEAKER_00: when your family is,
57:16
when ministry becomes a detriment to the spiritual and overall
57:20
health of your
57:21
SPEAKER_00: family,
57:22
SPEAKER_00: there's,
57:22
SPEAKER_00: there's not only a red flag,
57:24
SPEAKER_00: but,
57:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:25
SPEAKER_00: pump the brakes hard and maybe even reconsider,
57:28
SPEAKER_00: um,
57:28
SPEAKER_00: what the Lord's calling you to do.
57:31
SPEAKER_02: I can resonate with that only because I am a pastor's kid.
57:35
SPEAKER_02: And so I understand kind of all of the nuances that go along with that.
57:38
SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like that will be a chapter in that book about the ox.
57:42
SPEAKER_02: It sounds like that'll be a long chapter.
57:44
SPEAKER_02: No, I think that's really good, Pilgrim.
57:46
SPEAKER_02: There is this burden that you sometimes feel,
57:52
SPEAKER_02: and it kind of goes back into that implicit,
57:54
SPEAKER_02: explicit thing,
57:55
SPEAKER_02: like where all of these expectations that people might have for you
57:59
SPEAKER_02: You kind of mentioned it was like the mistress.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like that thing that makes your eye kind of wander towards,
58:06
SPEAKER_02: I could be doing this over here,
58:08
SPEAKER_02: and you're forgetting the ministry of your own home.
58:12
There's a book that was written by a 19th century contemporary
58:19
of Spurgeon.
58:20
SPEAKER_02: His name is Octavius Winslow, and his stuff is really good.
58:24
SPEAKER_02: But the book is entitled The Ministry of Home.
58:27
SPEAKER_02: If you read it without that title in mind,
58:29
SPEAKER_02: you're like,
58:30
SPEAKER_02: oh,
58:30
SPEAKER_02: wow,
58:30
SPEAKER_02: he's describing church ministry,
58:33
SPEAKER_02: which is really interesting a lot of times.
58:34
SPEAKER_02: But actually,
58:35
he's just talking about the ways in which there's a ministry
58:38
that is being
58:38
SPEAKER_02: conducted within your own home.
58:39
SPEAKER_02: And I think thinking about it in that sort of way is really helpful,
58:45
SPEAKER_02: especially when it comes to that older notion.
58:49
Are we sacrificing our family on the altar of ministry and
58:52
blah,
58:52
blah,
58:52
blah,
58:52
all those things?
58:53
SPEAKER_02: No, there should never come a point where that occurs.
58:56
SPEAKER_02: And the priority of that, I think, is in the Word.
59:00
SPEAKER_02: The burden of that is in the Word.
59:03
And it also kind of leads to those questions that sometimes
59:08
pastors have are like,
59:10
SPEAKER_02: are they allowed to take breaks?
59:12
SPEAKER_02: Are they allowed to rest?
59:14
SPEAKER_02: What kind of rhythms should pastors have?
59:15
I think this is one of the things I also want to talk to you
59:17
about just because...
59:20
SPEAKER_02: In certain circles, that's a conversation, but in some circles it's not.
59:23
SPEAKER_02: It's this notion that pastors are always on,
59:26
SPEAKER_02: and no matter what,
59:27
SPEAKER_02: you're supposed to be able to access them,
59:30
SPEAKER_02: and no matter what,
59:30
SPEAKER_02: they're supposed to be at your beck and call,
59:32
SPEAKER_02: and no matter what,
59:34
SPEAKER_02: the rhythm of what a pastor does doesn't really allow for leisure,
59:41
SPEAKER_02: doesn't allow for even vacation,
59:43
SPEAKER_02: doesn't allow for rest.
59:46
SPEAKER_02: And even if we don't think about that,
59:49
SPEAKER_02: You know,
59:50
SPEAKER_02: functionally,
59:51
maybe sometimes there is like the way that we kind of there's
59:54
like this level of
59:55
processing that happens in theory that just leads to that kind
1:00:00
of just being the
1:00:01
SPEAKER_02: reality.
1:00:04
So what would you say to pastors who kind of feel that burden
1:00:08
that they don't like
1:00:09
their rhythms are just way too maxed out and they haven't had
1:00:12
time to to take a
1:00:13
SPEAKER_02: break?
1:00:15
Well,
1:00:15
I mean,
1:00:16
so you're either I would say this very simply,
1:00:18
very plainly.
1:00:19
If you're not going to build in rhythms of rest and renewal,
1:00:24
it'll be built in for you.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_00: In other words,
1:00:26
SPEAKER_00: if you won't take this,
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: if you won't take the break,
1:00:29
SPEAKER_00: it will be given to you without,
1:00:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:33
SPEAKER_00: without you volunteering for it.
1:00:35
And so like like Barna in 2022,
1:00:38
they found I think it was 42 percent of of pastors in the U.S.,
1:00:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, we're, we're like feeling close to burnout.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I know there's another stat that Lifeway did.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_00: I think it was like plus 50,
1:00:55
SPEAKER_00: like 53% since 2020,
1:00:57
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:00:58
SPEAKER_00: had seriously considered quitting the ministry.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: and so you look at like the,
1:01:02
SPEAKER_00: the health markers,
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: mental health,
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:01:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:07
SPEAKER_00: physical health,
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: spiritual health.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what do they always say?
1:01:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, the, the cobbler's kids have no shoes.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, I had a friend who was a, like an incredible painter.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_00: He had this painting company and I went to visit his house and his,
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: his house was in shambles as far as the exterior with the paint.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: This is a real thing.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: And so if that's true,
1:01:27
SPEAKER_00: then what's,
1:01:28
SPEAKER_00: what are we saying about the spirit,
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: the potential spiritual health in our own life,
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: let alone our homes?
1:01:34
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully that's not the same trend, but you know, this is a real thing.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: And I think,
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: this stoic sort of, I think it's a, it's a, it's a generation past case.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_00: This is, this is maybe more of a boomer thing or an older thing.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: It's definitely like an eighties thing,
1:01:51
SPEAKER_00: but this whole,
1:01:52
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:54
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:01:55
SPEAKER_00: this is the,
1:01:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:56
SPEAKER_00: this is the gold standard and what does it look like?
1:01:59
SPEAKER_00: It's, this is success, right?
1:02:00
SPEAKER_00: It's dying in the pulpit.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, 50 year plus ministry, hardly ever taken a break.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:02:08
SPEAKER_00: you know, it's just this very stoic, no matter what we push through it.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_00: I remember reading a,
1:02:15
SPEAKER_00: like a contemporary story of a pastor who,
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: whose wife passed away and he left the hospital and went to work.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_00: He went to church that day.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_00: He wanted to get some stuff done at church.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like that.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: And it was, it was, it was conveyed in like a positive light.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, wow, what a, what a hard worker.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is,
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: like the definition of,
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: of unhealth in a pastor's life,
1:02:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:40
SPEAKER_00: that's like,
1:02:41
SPEAKER_00: and so,
1:02:41
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:02:41
SPEAKER_00: I think,
1:02:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:42
SPEAKER_00: this,
1:02:43
SPEAKER_00: this notion of,
1:02:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:44
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:02:45
SPEAKER_00: what do you mean you get a vacation?
1:02:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, what do you mean you get, pastors get a day off?
1:02:49
I remember I sat with a young couple who had been pretty
1:02:53
spiritually abused at a,
1:02:55
SPEAKER_00: at a well-known ministry,
1:02:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:57
SPEAKER_00: national ministry.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_00: And there's some abuse scandals kind of being, being exposed right now.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_00: But I remember sitting with them,
1:03:05
SPEAKER_00: trying to counsel them through their hurt.
1:03:07
And I said,
1:03:09
yeah,
1:03:09
so we have,
1:03:10
we have a plurality of elders and ministry leaders care team.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't keep my phone in my room at night.
1:03:16
My wife and I put our cell phones out on the charger,
1:03:19
out in the living room.
1:03:21
If there's a death somewhere that it's an absolute emergency,
1:03:25
people know where I live.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_00: They can come knock on the door.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_00: I'll hear the door.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_00: But I'm not on call.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm not just, you know, 24 seven, anytime, any place,
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: at my kids games,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: on a date,
1:03:39
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:03:39
SPEAKER_00: in the middle of movie night,
1:03:40
SPEAKER_00: you can just reach me and,
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: and,
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:03:42
SPEAKER_00: Hey pastor,
1:03:42
SPEAKER_00: we need to meet,
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: those,
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: those devastating texts that you get that keep you up and stressed.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:03:49
SPEAKER_00: so yeah,
1:03:49
SPEAKER_00: I just think,
1:03:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: we get more into this,
1:03:52
SPEAKER_00: but you know,
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: the wisdom of building in,
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:03:55
regular rhythms of renewal and rest,
1:03:58
like regularly,
1:03:59
build them in as habits.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_00: You can use whatever phrase,
1:04:02
SPEAKER_00: spiritual discipline,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: spiritual formation,
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:05
SPEAKER_00: what habits of grace,
1:04:06
SPEAKER_00: whatever you want to call them,
1:04:07
but we've got to learn this like right out of the gate and make
1:04:11
this as normative
1:04:12
SPEAKER_00: as brushing our teeth,
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: as taking showers,
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: shampooing our hair.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_00: It's just got to be, it's got to be built into our lives.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_00: And I think Jesus demonstrates that
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:04:22
SPEAKER_00: if anyone was needed for three years,
1:04:24
SPEAKER_00: God incarnate was needed in Judea doing ministry from sunset,
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: sunrise to sunset and even beyond.
1:04:33
SPEAKER_00: And what is Jesus model for us?
1:04:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's other work to do.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: He steps away.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_00: Hey, let's get a side.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: for some rest,
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: and,
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: and if you look at some of the rhythms of that,
1:04:43
SPEAKER_00: sometimes that was when ministry was bustling,
1:04:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: and he could have stayed,
1:04:48
SPEAKER_00: there's other work to do.
1:04:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so even, even the son of God, right.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_00: With the,
1:04:54
SPEAKER_00: with the,
1:04:54
SPEAKER_00: the energy of the Holy spirit,
1:04:56
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: gives us,
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: I think a great template of,
1:04:59
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:05:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:05:00
SPEAKER_00: what rhythms of rest.
1:05:02
And I,
1:05:02
you know,
1:05:02
I use that a lot rhythms of rest and renewal kind of,
1:05:05
uh,
1:05:06
kind of look like,
1:05:08
What would that look like for a younger pastor,
1:05:11
for a guy who's fresh into ministry?
1:05:13
SPEAKER_02: How does he build up those rhythms,
1:05:15
SPEAKER_02: as you're calling them,
1:05:16
or how does he establish those kind of boundaries in ways that
1:05:22
are gracious but are
1:05:23
SPEAKER_02: also ways that speak to what he values,
1:05:28
SPEAKER_02: and I think biblically so?
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: Well,
1:05:31
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:05:32
you don't have to be a Sabbatarian to see the value in taking a
1:05:37
day of rest every
1:05:38
SPEAKER_00: week.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that means you don't go into the church building.
1:05:43
SPEAKER_00: I think that means you're in nature,
1:05:45
SPEAKER_00: you're with your family,
1:05:46
SPEAKER_00: with loved ones,
1:05:47
SPEAKER_00: you are enjoying God's creation,
1:05:49
SPEAKER_00: and you're reflecting on your gratitude for the goodness of God.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: you paint that picture to young people and it's sort of like is a,
1:05:58
SPEAKER_00: it like blows their mind.
1:05:59
Like,
1:06:00
wait,
1:06:00
I can do this every,
1:06:01
this is something God has,
1:06:02
has gifted to us.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:06:04
Uh,
1:06:04
he didn't create man for the Sabbath,
1:06:06
but Sabbath for man,
1:06:07
this is for me.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, Israel ignores it.
1:06:10
Uh,
1:06:11
you know,
1:06:11
he says every seven years,
1:06:12
I want you to give the land a rest.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_00: And they go, no, we're going to skip that one.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_00: And they do that almost 500 years.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_00: So he says, okay, I'll take you out for 70 and I'll give the land a rest.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_00: So again,
1:06:22
SPEAKER_00: you're either going to build this into your life in practical ways,
1:06:27
SPEAKER_00: built into your actual,
1:06:28
SPEAKER_00: like baked into your calendar.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_00: When I say rhythms, I mean, I'm not trying to be poetic.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, literally, God has given us the rhythm of the day, right?
1:06:37
SPEAKER_00: So the day can begin and end in a variety of different ways.
1:06:42
SPEAKER_00: The alarm can go off or not.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_00: You can jump up and just get right into work mode.
1:06:47
SPEAKER_00: Open your laptop.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_00: Start sending that email.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_00: Or you can take a minute and let me just pause for a minute.
1:06:54
SPEAKER_00: Let me express some gratitude for this day.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_00: Let me take some time to like consider my life,
1:06:59
SPEAKER_00: consider where I was yesterday,
1:07:01
SPEAKER_00: consider where I am today.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_00: Let me take some time to, you know, seek the Lord.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_00: Let me read his word.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_00: Let me pray.
1:07:07
Um,
1:07:08
you know,
1:07:09
let me exercise,
1:07:09
get my body,
1:07:10
you know,
1:07:10
blood flowing again.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, he's given that to us on the daily.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_00: And I think,
1:07:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:07:16
SPEAKER_00: it's built into the week,
1:07:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:07:18
SPEAKER_00: in,
1:07:18
SPEAKER_00: in,
1:07:19
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:07:19
SPEAKER_00: not only in creation,
1:07:21
SPEAKER_00: but in the,
1:07:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:07:22
SPEAKER_00: the 10 commandments,
1:07:23
SPEAKER_00: he's built that in,
1:07:25
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:07:26
SPEAKER_00: I think,
1:07:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:07:27
SPEAKER_00: even even the month,
1:07:28
SPEAKER_00: I like to take the month and say,
1:07:29
SPEAKER_00: OK,
1:07:31
SPEAKER_00: what a cool thing like that.
1:07:32
You know,
1:07:33
this follows maybe more the moon rhythms,
1:07:35
but like,
1:07:36
hey,
1:07:37
we actually mark calendars.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:07:40
SPEAKER_00: And so like here we are in,
1:07:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:07:42
SPEAKER_00: currently in December,
1:07:43
but that's going to end and we're going to we're going to start
1:07:45
a new a new month.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_00: So, man, maybe I should take some time.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_00: And there seems to be a really high emphasis in Scripture on remembering.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:07:56
SPEAKER_00: Stop and remember.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_00: And so why don't I just bake that into my actual schedule?
1:08:02
SPEAKER_00: Why don't I,
1:08:02
SPEAKER_00: for me personally,
1:08:03
it's like the last Wednesday or now it's become the first
1:08:06
Wednesday of every month,
1:08:07
SPEAKER_00: just stopping and looking back.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_00: And so I think for pastors as well,
1:08:12
SPEAKER_00: taking vacation time,
1:08:15
SPEAKER_00: not just to get away and like,
1:08:16
SPEAKER_00: oh man,
1:08:18
SPEAKER_00: I need a day off or I need a week off.
1:08:20
SPEAKER_00: We actually, when I was full-time lead pastoring,
1:08:25
SPEAKER_00: we used to take Mondays off and it was almost like we're exhausted.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, finally get a day off.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:08:31
SPEAKER_00: if that's what your day off looks like,
1:08:33
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:08:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: finally,
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:08:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:37
SPEAKER_00: I think might be missing the whole,
1:08:39
SPEAKER_00: the whole point of a day of rest.
1:08:41
SPEAKER_00: So we switched it to Friday.
1:08:43
So I'd get all my work done and then say,
1:08:45
okay,
1:08:45
now it's time like built into creation.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_00: God doesn't take the day off, then get to work.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: He, he works then rest.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we would take Friday off and my wife said,
1:08:55
SPEAKER_00: I immediately saw the difference.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:09:00
SPEAKER_00: you're not sort of reflecting on Sunday,
1:09:04
SPEAKER_00: discouraged,
1:09:05
SPEAKER_00: wishing you could do something else,
1:09:08
SPEAKER_00: which we all sometimes feel Sunday or Monday.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, you're rested, you're refreshed.
1:09:14
That allows me to go into Sundays,
1:09:18
you know,
1:09:18
again,
1:09:18
not exhausted,
1:09:20
but revitalized.
1:09:22
SPEAKER_00: So I think building that into your calendar
1:09:25
SPEAKER_00: And then,
1:09:25
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:09:26
SPEAKER_00: taking vacation time,
1:09:28
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:09:28
SPEAKER_00: vacation or naps,
1:09:31
SPEAKER_00: I think are spiritual reminders to us that God is sovereign.
1:09:38
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, a nap says, it doesn't depend on me.
1:09:43
SPEAKER_00: God's sovereign.
1:09:43
SPEAKER_00: I can rest.
1:09:44
SPEAKER_00: They don't need me.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, vacation says to the church and to you, God is sovereign.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_00: He is Lord.
1:09:50
SPEAKER_00: He's the shepherd of this church.
1:09:53
SPEAKER_00: He's the pastor.
1:09:55
SPEAKER_00: I am under him, but I'm going to take a day of rest or a week of rest.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_00: So I think those are important.
1:10:01
SPEAKER_02: I very quickly did the same thing when I started pastoring here.
1:10:05
I was taking Mondays off and there was always this feeling when
1:10:09
I got into the
1:10:10
office on Tuesday that I was already behind in the week and I
1:10:13
would be thinking
1:10:13
SPEAKER_02: about those things all day Monday.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_02: So I wasn't really relaxing.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't really resting.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_02: So now the rhythm just feels a lot better for me.
1:10:24
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes there is some stuff that bleeds into Fridays,
1:10:27
SPEAKER_02: but I try to safeguard that as much as possible.
1:10:29
SPEAKER_02: But
1:10:30
SPEAKER_02: Fridays and Saturdays,
1:10:30
SPEAKER_02: just being very strict with,
1:10:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:10:35
and deliberate with who I'm spending time with and how I'm
1:10:39
spending those hours.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_02: And hopefully,
1:10:41
SPEAKER_02: Lord willing,
1:10:41
SPEAKER_02: doing so in a way that's,
1:10:43
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:10:43
SPEAKER_02: meaningful,
1:10:44
SPEAKER_02: that's actually quality,
1:10:46
SPEAKER_02: and that's actually doing something for my family and for my soul,
1:10:50
SPEAKER_02: so to speak.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_02: So I think that's really important.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_02: And I think that,
1:10:55
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:10:55
SPEAKER_02: maybe there's a book in there too,
1:10:56
SPEAKER_02: or maybe someone's already read it or written it,
1:10:58
SPEAKER_02: but there's,
1:10:59
there's something to all of those times where it says that
1:11:03
Jesus went away.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_02: Um,
1:11:05
SPEAKER_02: there,
1:11:06
SPEAKER_02: there's,
1:11:06
SPEAKER_02: there's something to that,
1:11:07
SPEAKER_02: obviously,
1:11:08
like it's not by accident that I think the book of Mark
1:11:10
mentions it a lot where,
1:11:12
SPEAKER_02: as you said,
1:11:13
SPEAKER_02: like there's ministry that's bustling and then all of a sudden,
1:11:16
SPEAKER_02: wait,
1:11:17
SPEAKER_02: where's Jesus?
1:11:18
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_02: He's up in the mountains praying and
1:11:21
He's not in the heat of the so-called bustling ministry that's
1:11:27
happening.
1:11:27
SPEAKER_02: He's actually taking some time.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_02: He's doing something that is actually restful, that is able to...
1:11:39
SPEAKER_02: And he's doing so in a way that I think is tangible,
1:11:41
SPEAKER_02: but also in a way that's,
1:11:42
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:11:43
SPEAKER_02: substitutionary.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_02: Like he's doing it as an example as well as just for,
1:11:47
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:11:47
SPEAKER_02: he's human and God at the same time.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_02: So anyways,
1:11:51
SPEAKER_02: I think that's really,
1:11:52
SPEAKER_02: really important for no matter what age you are,
1:11:55
SPEAKER_02: pastors taking rest and I think being free to do so.
1:12:01
I think one of the things,
1:12:02
so not to keep circling back to the same topic,
1:12:05
but
1:12:06
SPEAKER_02: You know, you mentioned sheep bite.
1:12:09
SPEAKER_02: And I think there's also this,
1:12:11
there's two things that I think that are sometimes taboo for
1:12:14
pastors to talk about,
1:12:16
SPEAKER_02: which is number one,
1:12:17
SPEAKER_02: taking a break.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_02: And number two, people in your church biting you.
1:12:23
People in your church,
1:12:24
and this is not just air dirty laundry,
1:12:26
it's just to say that
1:12:27
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
1:12:28
SPEAKER_02: You're in ministry with sinners and sinners are going to sin.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_02: And whether they do so knowingly or whether they do so,
1:12:34
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:12:34
SPEAKER_02: ignorantly,
1:12:36
SPEAKER_02: there's going to be ways in which you feel the effects of that.
1:12:39
SPEAKER_02: We are sinners who are ministering to other sinners.
1:12:43
SPEAKER_02: So it goes both ways, goes full circle.
1:12:47
SPEAKER_02: And I think what I've found is
1:12:53
SPEAKER_02: And not in any profound way,
1:12:54
SPEAKER_02: but what I'm learning and finding is that pastors,
1:12:59
SPEAKER_02: as we've been saying,
1:13:00
SPEAKER_02: they're children of God.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_02: And they should,
1:13:04
SPEAKER_02: and they are,
1:13:05
but they should feel free to be able to process some of these
1:13:09
very things.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_02: What does it mean to rest?
1:13:11
SPEAKER_02: How can I do that?
1:13:12
What does it mean to be bitten by the sheep with whom I'm
1:13:16
ministering that I'm
1:13:16
SPEAKER_02: pouring my souls out to?
1:13:18
And not just feeling as though they have to keep all of that
1:13:22
stuff bottled up.
1:13:23
Because if you take that and you kind of divorce that from
1:13:28
pastoral ministry,
1:13:29
SPEAKER_02: we would tell anyone,
1:13:31
SPEAKER_02: bottling that up,
1:13:32
SPEAKER_02: not going to go well for you.
1:13:34
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter what the context is.
1:13:36
SPEAKER_02: That is going to do you in at some point.
1:13:38
Like you were saying,
1:13:39
if you don't take a break,
1:13:41
God's going to give you one anyways.
1:13:43
SPEAKER_02: The same sort of things.
1:13:44
Whether that feeling of exhaustion comes from just your
1:13:49
schedule or it comes from
1:13:51
SPEAKER_02: sheep biting...
1:13:53
SPEAKER_02: Part of,
1:13:54
SPEAKER_02: I think,
1:13:55
SPEAKER_02: part of the process of healing but learning and coping and,
1:14:01
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:14:01
kind of getting through those seasons is being able to process
1:14:05
those and sometimes
1:14:06
SPEAKER_02: out loud.
1:14:06
SPEAKER_02: And whether that's with, as you're saying, I think most specifically –
1:14:11
SPEAKER_02: Someone who is like an accountability partner for you,
1:14:15
someone with whom you can really bare your soul and be able to
1:14:18
process those things
1:14:19
SPEAKER_02: out loud and feel free enough to be vulnerable.
1:14:23
SPEAKER_02: Pastoral vulnerability,
1:14:24
SPEAKER_02: I think,
1:14:24
SPEAKER_02: is one of those areas that we haven't done a good job of cultivating.
1:14:28
And I don't mean to say that anecdotally and just,
1:14:31
you know,
1:14:31
painting with broad brushes,
1:14:32
but...
1:14:33
SPEAKER_02: But generally speaking, pastors are not allowed to be that vulnerable.
1:14:37
SPEAKER_02: We look at them with a little bit of a side eye.
1:14:39
SPEAKER_02: Whoa, what kind of pastor is that guy?
1:14:41
SPEAKER_02: Look at that guy.
1:14:42
SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of to the church's detriment.
1:14:46
It's kind of to our shame that we've kind of cultivated that
1:14:51
culture within the
1:14:52
SPEAKER_02: church,
1:14:52
SPEAKER_02: if that makes sense.
1:14:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:14:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:14:56
SPEAKER_00: we have to understand that,
1:14:57
SPEAKER_00: that,
1:14:57
SPEAKER_00: that there are job hazards,
1:14:59
SPEAKER_00: there's hazards on the job.
1:15:00
So if we were to be,
1:15:02
uh,
1:15:02
minors in Kentucky,
1:15:04
there are some significant hazards.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:15:07
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:15:08
SPEAKER_00: and so like they,
1:15:09
SPEAKER_00: they found that,
1:15:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:15:11
SPEAKER_00: the three most,
1:15:13
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:15:13
SPEAKER_00: stress inducing jobs,
1:15:15
SPEAKER_00: and I don't remember which study did this,
1:15:17
SPEAKER_00: but the,
1:15:17
SPEAKER_00: the top three,
1:15:18
SPEAKER_00: like most stress inducing jobs,
1:15:21
SPEAKER_00: president of the United States,
1:15:24
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:15:24
SPEAKER_00: CEO of a hospital pastor of a, of a hundred person church.
1:15:30
SPEAKER_00: And so,
1:15:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:15:31
SPEAKER_00: I think just understanding the hazards of the job,
1:15:34
SPEAKER_00: what this is going to involve is it's going to,
1:15:36
SPEAKER_00: it's going to take a major,
1:15:38
SPEAKER_00: like your body keeps the receipts.
1:15:39
SPEAKER_00: It's going to take a major toll emotionally and physio,
1:15:44
SPEAKER_00: like psychosomatic,
1:15:45
SPEAKER_00: whatever you want to say,
1:15:46
SPEAKER_00: it's going to take a major emotional toll to,
1:15:49
SPEAKER_00: cause your job,
1:15:50
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:15:50
SPEAKER_00: You're a soul care practitioner as a pastor.
1:15:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:15:54
So your job is to come alongside people and to guide them right
1:15:58
through the valley
1:15:59
SPEAKER_00: of the shadow of death,
1:16:00
SPEAKER_00: sometimes alongside still water into green pasture.
1:16:04
SPEAKER_00: And so you're we're not cowboys.
1:16:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:16:07
SPEAKER_00: I like to say we're not cowboys who are driving cattle.
1:16:10
SPEAKER_00: We don't push the sheep and push the cattle and.
1:16:14
crack the whip and threaten and and get loud we're called to
1:16:18
lead so we're out in
1:16:19
front as also sheep following the good shepherd and we're
1:16:23
saying like paul follow
1:16:24
SPEAKER_00: me as i follow christ so that means we're close enough in that personal
1:16:28
relationship where we're not just on the stage or just on the
1:16:32
screen we're building
1:16:34
lives in close proximity and they can look at us and say i will
1:16:38
follow you because
1:16:39
SPEAKER_00: i you know what did paul tell timothy
1:16:41
SPEAKER_00: You know, you know, you know, my life.
1:16:44
SPEAKER_00: What did he say?
1:16:45
SPEAKER_00: You know what you believed and from whom you've learned it.
1:16:48
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:16:49
SPEAKER_00: He'd say, watch your life and doctrine closely.
1:16:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:16:52
SPEAKER_00: That means you've got people around you.
1:16:53
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:16:55
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:16:55
SPEAKER_00: the hard part about about church dynamics is that,
1:17:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:17:00
SPEAKER_00: one person said we're like porcupines in the cold.
1:17:04
SPEAKER_00: So in one sense, you know, we.
1:17:08
SPEAKER_00: We want to huddle together because it's cold, it's frigid.
1:17:10
And so we get near one another,
1:17:12
but then we get too close and we harm one another.
1:17:15
SPEAKER_00: And so then they said, you know, Christianity is a constant pushing.
1:17:21
SPEAKER_00: What is it?
1:17:22
A constant pulling away and drawing near,
1:17:25
pulling away and drawing near to believers.
1:17:27
SPEAKER_00: I use this phrase, beautiful irritation.
1:17:31
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, iron sharpens iron.
1:17:33
SPEAKER_00: So one man sharpens another.
1:17:36
SPEAKER_00: Let's not overlook that word picture, iron sharpening iron.
1:17:43
SPEAKER_00: One of the pieces or the other are causing sparks,
1:17:46
but they're also in that friction reducing the mass of that
1:17:54
iron to make it more
1:17:56
SPEAKER_00: effective,
1:17:56
SPEAKER_00: to make it more useful.
1:17:58
But in that close proximity,
1:18:00
there's rubbing and it's hot and it's not great.
1:18:05
SPEAKER_00: And so I think,
1:18:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:18:06
SPEAKER_00: it's an irritation when we're among the local church,
1:18:10
SPEAKER_00: among believers.
1:18:11
And it's a beautiful irritation because we're helping produce,
1:18:15
you know,
1:18:15
Christlikeness.
1:18:16
SPEAKER_00: I think of the Great Commission and,
1:18:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:18:19
SPEAKER_00: Jesus,
1:18:20
SPEAKER_00: of course,
1:18:20
SPEAKER_00: says there,
1:18:22
SPEAKER_00: go disciple the nations.
1:18:24
SPEAKER_00: And here's how you do it.
1:18:25
SPEAKER_00: You baptize them.
1:18:26
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:18:26
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:18:26
SPEAKER_00: if they've not heard the name of Christ,
1:18:29
SPEAKER_00: preach,
1:18:30
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
1:18:30
SPEAKER_00: so that they become followers of Christ.
1:18:32
SPEAKER_00: They're baptized.
1:18:34
SPEAKER_00: And then I think we misunderstand this next part.
1:18:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, the going is the important part because they haven't heard.
1:18:41
SPEAKER_00: Then once they hear,
1:18:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:18:43
SPEAKER_00: see them,
1:18:43
SPEAKER_00: follow them through to discipleship and baptism into the church.
1:18:48
SPEAKER_00: But then the third part, I think we misquote.
1:18:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think we say teaching them all that I've commanded you.
1:18:55
SPEAKER_00: That's not what he said.
1:18:57
SPEAKER_00: He says teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you.
1:19:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's easy to just teach.
1:19:02
SPEAKER_00: We're just going to teach.
1:19:03
SPEAKER_00: But Jesus doesn't say, just teach them what I told you.
1:19:06
SPEAKER_00: No, he says, teach them to observe.
1:19:07
So that observing part is where we have to shepherd and model
1:19:12
and be in close
1:19:13
SPEAKER_00: enough proximity that,
1:19:15
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:19:15
SPEAKER_00: we pour our lives into families.
1:19:18
SPEAKER_00: And,
1:19:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:19:18
SPEAKER_00: I sort of caricatured it earlier,
1:19:20
but every pastor watching this or listening to this knows
1:19:22
exactly what I mean by
1:19:24
SPEAKER_00: the phone call of,
1:19:26
SPEAKER_00: hey,
1:19:26
SPEAKER_00: could,
1:19:27
SPEAKER_00: or the text,
1:19:28
SPEAKER_00: it's now text.
1:19:29
SPEAKER_00: Hey, pastor, can we meet
1:19:31
SPEAKER_00: This week, we have to talk to you.
1:19:33
SPEAKER_00: We have some concerns.
1:19:34
SPEAKER_00: Or, hey, do you have time to meet?
1:19:35
SPEAKER_00: We all know.
1:19:36
We're all getting anxiety right now just thinking of what that
1:19:39
conversation is
1:19:40
SPEAKER_00: going to look like.
1:19:41
SPEAKER_00: And a few years ago, I just would not meet.
1:19:45
SPEAKER_00: I refused to meet with someone who wouldn't tell me ahead of time.
1:19:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the best practice, honestly.
1:19:52
SPEAKER_00: But if they said,
1:19:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:19:53
SPEAKER_00: if they said,
1:19:54
SPEAKER_00: well,
1:19:54
SPEAKER_00: the reason I want to meet is we're leaving the church,
1:19:56
SPEAKER_00: then I'd say,
1:19:57
SPEAKER_00: great,
1:19:57
SPEAKER_00: we're going to meet with the elders and I'm not going to meet alone,
1:20:01
SPEAKER_00: especially with my wife and my kids.
1:20:02
SPEAKER_00: We're going to dinner with them.
1:20:05
SPEAKER_00: We're having them over even worse, trying to be hospitable.
1:20:09
SPEAKER_00: And then that's they drop that that shoe on us.
1:20:12
But,
1:20:13
you know,
1:20:13
I think that's that is the hazard in the job is that we love
1:20:17
people.
1:20:17
SPEAKER_00: We're laying down our lives.
1:20:18
SPEAKER_00: So built in, baked into that.
1:20:21
SPEAKER_00: Is that we are going to be deeply,
1:20:22
SPEAKER_00: deeply hurt because we're,
1:20:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:20:25
I remember I met with a family at our church in Tampa and there
1:20:31
his wife had had,
1:20:32
SPEAKER_00: sadly,
1:20:33
SPEAKER_00: a pretty significantly late miscarriage.
1:20:40
SPEAKER_00: And so she delivered their baby stillborn.
1:20:45
SPEAKER_00: And it was incredibly hard.
1:20:47
SPEAKER_00: He called me up and I'm sorry, this is a little graphic.
1:20:50
SPEAKER_00: I just want the nature of what happened.
1:20:51
SPEAKER_00: But he called me up and just said, I don't know what to do.
1:20:54
SPEAKER_00: We have the baby.
1:20:56
SPEAKER_00: What do I do?
1:20:58
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, what do you do in those situations?
1:21:00
SPEAKER_00: I said, well, we should get probably a hospital involved.
1:21:02
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to do a funeral, you know, a burial?
1:21:05
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, no quick verse.
1:21:08
you know,
1:21:08
uh,
1:21:09
we're not gonna be able to chat GPT that,
1:21:11
you know what I mean?
1:21:11
SPEAKER_00: We've got to, we've got to show up.
1:21:13
SPEAKER_00: We got to be embodied.
1:21:15
SPEAKER_00: We've got to like counsel them through that.
1:21:17
SPEAKER_00: We got to cry with them.
1:21:18
We got to sit with them and we got to wear that,
1:21:20
you know,
1:21:21
that,
1:21:21
and that's what Christ did.
1:21:23
You know,
1:21:23
Christ didn't from afar just send an angel,
1:21:26
uh,
1:21:27
you know,
1:21:28
to proclaim the good news.
1:21:29
SPEAKER_00: He came and he wore it.
1:21:30
SPEAKER_00: He, he bore, you know,
1:21:33
SPEAKER_00: as you know,
1:21:33
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:21:34
SPEAKER_00: like all of humanity,
1:21:36
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:21:36
SPEAKER_00: everything that meant to be human and then bore our sin.
1:21:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so that's what we do.
1:21:40
SPEAKER_00: We're called to do the same.
1:21:41
SPEAKER_00: That's, we are right.
1:21:43
SPEAKER_00: We are like, I don't want to be blasphemous here.
1:21:47
SPEAKER_00: Like we're not God incarnate.
1:21:49
We're,
1:21:49
we're not even Christ incarnate,
1:21:50
but we're,
1:21:51
we're like bearing bodily,
1:21:54
right.
1:21:54
SPEAKER_00: The work that Jesus, the gospel, right.
1:21:57
SPEAKER_00: We're, we're
1:21:58
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:21:59
SPEAKER_00: and we say it cliche,
1:22:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:22:01
SPEAKER_00: we're the hands and feet of Jesus,
1:22:02
SPEAKER_00: but pastorally we really are.
1:22:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where some church hurt is,
1:22:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
1:22:06
SPEAKER_00: you are the only thing I knew about Christ was you.
1:22:09
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm, you know, you've hurt me, therefore Christ has hurt me.
1:22:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm out.
1:22:12
SPEAKER_00: But I think,
1:22:13
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:22:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:22:14
SPEAKER_00: for that one particular couple,
1:22:16
SPEAKER_00: a few months later,
1:22:17
SPEAKER_00: after walking them through that,
1:22:18
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:22:19
SPEAKER_00: just to very,
1:22:20
SPEAKER_00: in a very trite way,
1:22:20
SPEAKER_00: be like,
1:22:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh,
1:22:21
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
1:22:22
SPEAKER_00: we found another church,
1:22:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:22:23
SPEAKER_00: for them,
1:22:24
SPEAKER_00: that was sort of an easy,
1:22:25
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:22:27
SPEAKER_00: an easy decision.
1:22:28
SPEAKER_00: It was, um,
1:22:30
SPEAKER_00: it was born out of convenience and what worked best.
1:22:33
SPEAKER_00: For my wife and I,
1:22:33
SPEAKER_00: that was like,
1:22:34
SPEAKER_00: how could we,
1:22:35
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:22:37
SPEAKER_00: we can't separate,
1:22:39
SPEAKER_00: we can't divorce the,
1:22:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:22:41
the ministry that we've done to you and with you and the love
1:22:45
we have for you.
1:22:46
SPEAKER_00: To you, it's just very easy to say, oh, we found another fellowship.
1:22:50
SPEAKER_00: Can you transfer our membership?
1:22:51
You know,
1:22:52
for us,
1:22:53
it was just like,
1:22:53
oh,
1:22:54
these are like,
1:22:55
they're like family.
1:22:56
And when you have a family member,
1:22:58
you know,
1:22:59
leave or divorce,
1:23:00
that just,
1:23:01
it's devastating.
1:23:01
So,
1:23:02
yeah,
1:23:02
I think,
1:23:03
anyway,
1:23:03
long answer,
1:23:04
but I think that's,
1:23:05
you know,
1:23:06
it's part of the job.
1:23:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's what we signed up for.
1:23:09
SPEAKER_00: We signed up to be,
1:23:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:23:11
SPEAKER_00: the gospel incarnate in some ways,
1:23:14
SPEAKER_00: to just be,
1:23:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:23:17
SPEAKER_00: be in close proximity.
1:23:18
And that means we're opening ourselves up for great betrayal,
1:23:22
great hurt,
1:23:23
great,
1:23:24
you know,
1:23:25
SPEAKER_00: misunderstanding, expectations.
1:23:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, I wish I could go back.
1:23:31
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:23:32
the biggest thing my wife and I feel as far as pain is we wish
1:23:35
that we could go
1:23:36
SPEAKER_00: back and help those who left,
1:23:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:23:40
SPEAKER_00: with the confusion of us leaving.
1:23:42
And we wish we could just address those people originally and
1:23:45
just say,
1:23:45
like,
1:23:46
man,
1:23:46
we are sorry.
1:23:47
SPEAKER_00: We love you.
1:23:48
SPEAKER_00: We don't want to we wish we could go back and all this could be undone.
1:23:52
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:23:53
SPEAKER_00: but that's where we're hurting is like,
1:23:55
SPEAKER_00: oh man,
1:23:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:23:56
SPEAKER_00: it's,
1:23:56
SPEAKER_00: it's people not,
1:23:57
SPEAKER_00: not,
1:23:58
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:23:58
SPEAKER_00: situations,
1:23:59
SPEAKER_00: not principles,
1:24:00
SPEAKER_00: but people.
1:24:00
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:24:01
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:24:02
SPEAKER_00: that's the heart of Christ,
1:24:03
SPEAKER_00: I think is,
1:24:04
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:24:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:24:05
SPEAKER_00: a pastor who loves the people and,
1:24:08
SPEAKER_00: and cares for them.
1:24:09
SPEAKER_00: So.
1:24:10
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
1:24:11
SPEAKER_02: But that's really good,
1:24:11
SPEAKER_02: too,
1:24:11
SPEAKER_02: what you mentioned,
1:24:12
SPEAKER_02: even though we're not like,
1:24:13
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:24:14
SPEAKER_02: we are not Jesus incarnate in the ways that we minister.
1:24:18
What you were getting at made me think of that verse from 2
1:24:20
Corinthians 4,
1:24:22
SPEAKER_02: where,
1:24:22
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:24:22
SPEAKER_02: Paul's talking about the jars of clay,
1:24:24
SPEAKER_02: and then he says,
1:24:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:24:25
SPEAKER_02: we're afflicted in every way,
1:24:26
SPEAKER_02: but not crushed,
1:24:26
SPEAKER_02: and he goes on...
1:24:28
SPEAKER_02: But in verse 10,
1:24:29
SPEAKER_02: he says,
1:24:29
always carrying in the body the death of Jesus so that the life
1:24:34
of Jesus also may
1:24:35
SPEAKER_02: be manifested in our bodies.
1:24:37
SPEAKER_02: And you get this picture that on Paul's actual physical body,
1:24:43
SPEAKER_02: there were marks of ministry,
1:24:46
SPEAKER_02: whether that's the strain of it,
1:24:48
SPEAKER_02: whether it's the fact that,
1:24:49
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:24:49
SPEAKER_02: he had been beaten to a pulp almost to death a couple times or,
1:24:53
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:24:53
SPEAKER_02: whether he had the effects of being shipwrecked,
1:24:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:24:57
SPEAKER_02: whatever it might have been.
1:24:58
SPEAKER_02: or even just the weight,
1:25:00
SPEAKER_02: as he says later on in 2 Corinthians,
1:25:02
SPEAKER_02: of his anxiety for all the churches,
1:25:04
SPEAKER_02: whatever it might have been,
1:25:05
SPEAKER_02: it's not that he's incarnate for the ministry of Jesus,
1:25:11
SPEAKER_02: but he's a conduit of the ministry of Jesus who was God incarnate for us.
1:25:17
SPEAKER_02: And as a conduit of that, as a channel of that,
1:25:20
SPEAKER_02: And as a vessel,
1:25:22
SPEAKER_02: to use the jar of clay analogy,
1:25:24
SPEAKER_02: as a vessel of that,
1:25:25
SPEAKER_02: he himself bears those same marks in a lot of ways.
1:25:28
SPEAKER_02: And that,
1:25:29
SPEAKER_02: again,
1:25:29
SPEAKER_02: kind of leads us to that notion of just being there,
1:25:32
SPEAKER_02: being present in ways that are uncomfortable,
1:25:37
SPEAKER_02: ways that are...
1:25:38
SPEAKER_02: maybe anxiety-inducing ways that maybe is not always convenient.
1:25:43
But as you were saying,
1:25:45
this is,
1:25:45
quote-unquote,
1:25:46
the hazards of the job,
1:25:47
so to speak.
1:25:48
SPEAKER_02: This is kind of par for the course.
1:25:50
SPEAKER_02: And again, what a privilege it is that we get to do that.
1:25:55
SPEAKER_02: I think that's the thing.
1:25:58
Hopefully no one kind of gets this as we're pulling by the
1:26:02
curtain of some of the
1:26:04
SPEAKER_02: frustrations of ministry that we're like,
1:26:06
SPEAKER_02: oh,
1:26:06
SPEAKER_02: just two people licking our wounds.
1:26:08
SPEAKER_02: Actually, there is so much joy and privilege in this too.
1:26:12
SPEAKER_02: I think even Paul,
1:26:16
you read his letters and he never got over the fact that he was
1:26:21
called to be an
1:26:22
SPEAKER_02: apostle.
1:26:22
Like you read 1 Timothy and he talks about like what a marvel
1:26:28
it is that he's been
1:26:28
made an example of God's mercy by being the chief of sinners to
1:26:33
whom the salvation
1:26:34
SPEAKER_02: of Christ comes.
1:26:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:26:35
SPEAKER_02: Um,
1:26:36
SPEAKER_02: like you just get the sense that he never got over that,
1:26:39
SPEAKER_02: uh,
1:26:39
SPEAKER_02: despite all of the headaches,
1:26:41
like despite all of the annoyances that he had with churches
1:26:45
and congregations and,
1:26:47
SPEAKER_02: and people slandering him and people leaving him.
1:26:50
SPEAKER_02: Like you mentioned Demas,
1:26:51
SPEAKER_02: uh,
1:26:51
SPEAKER_02: throughout all of that,
1:26:53
SPEAKER_02: he,
1:26:54
SPEAKER_02: he counted it all joy to,
1:26:56
SPEAKER_02: to serve the Lord,
1:26:58
SPEAKER_02: to spend and be spent for Christ and
1:27:01
And so even I think even as we're talking about rhythms and
1:27:04
schedules and,
1:27:06
SPEAKER_02: and,
1:27:06
SPEAKER_02: and not putting ourselves in unhealthy situations and so on and so forth,
1:27:12
SPEAKER_02: there's a great joy to be found in ministering for,
1:27:16
SPEAKER_02: for Jesus to having even maybe some of our,
1:27:19
SPEAKER_02: our,
1:27:20
SPEAKER_02: these same sort of scars and marks be born in our body too.
1:27:24
SPEAKER_02: And I think that,
1:27:24
SPEAKER_02: That's the tension,
1:27:27
SPEAKER_02: that there is some frustration,
1:27:29
SPEAKER_02: but there is just deep and profound joy at the same time.
1:27:33
And it comes from just the fact that we get to take part in
1:27:38
this – like you've been saying.
1:27:39
SPEAKER_02: You've been saying this over and over again in this pod.
1:27:42
SPEAKER_02: We get to take part in this kingdom work.
1:27:45
SPEAKER_02: What a marvel is that?
1:27:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:27:46
SPEAKER_02: The kingdom is going to come in no matter what.
1:27:48
SPEAKER_02: We just get to take part in announcing it's coming.
1:27:51
SPEAKER_02: So like what a great joy that we have.
1:27:53
SPEAKER_02: Like that's our role.
1:27:54
SPEAKER_02: That's our job description.
1:27:56
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, anyways, there's a great joy to be had there too.
1:28:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:28:01
SPEAKER_00: I like to use that maybe out of context,
1:28:04
SPEAKER_00: but when Paul asks who is sufficient for these things,
1:28:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:07
SPEAKER_00: the answer is not us.
1:28:10
SPEAKER_00: We are not,
1:28:10
SPEAKER_00: but you know,
1:28:11
SPEAKER_00: but like you mentioned earlier,
1:28:12
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:28:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:13
SPEAKER_00: where we are lacking,
1:28:14
SPEAKER_00: it's not,
1:28:15
SPEAKER_00: we doing the work,
1:28:15
SPEAKER_00: it's the grace of God in us.
1:28:17
SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned that verse about,
1:28:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:20
SPEAKER_00: Paul,
1:28:20
SPEAKER_00: the least,
1:28:21
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:28:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:22
SPEAKER_00: people have written on this,
1:28:23
SPEAKER_00: but it's pretty interesting.
1:28:24
He kind of progresses from like,
1:28:27
um,
1:28:27
like,
1:28:28
so over time his,
1:28:30
uh,
1:28:30
his awareness of who he is,
1:28:31
um,
1:28:33
SPEAKER_00: like sort of in his own eyes diminishes.
1:28:36
SPEAKER_00: So he starts off like, I'm the least of the apostles.
1:28:39
SPEAKER_00: And then like a little bit later on in ministry,
1:28:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:42
SPEAKER_00: he's like,
1:28:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm the least of the saints.
1:28:44
SPEAKER_00: And then by the end, he's like, I'm the chief of sinners.
1:28:46
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:28:46
SPEAKER_00: I think the longer Paul goes on,
1:28:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:49
SPEAKER_00: it's just,
1:28:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:51
SPEAKER_00: he must become,
1:28:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:28:52
SPEAKER_00: it's the John principle.
1:28:53
SPEAKER_00: He must become greater.
1:28:54
SPEAKER_00: I must become less.
1:28:55
SPEAKER_00: But I think that's wise in ministry.
1:28:57
SPEAKER_00: We can start out
1:28:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, I'm God's gifted ministry.
1:29:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm ready to crush this.
1:29:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go for it.
1:29:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think after you, you know,
1:29:06
SPEAKER_00: you find a few wounds and,
1:29:08
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:29:08
SPEAKER_00: and you,
1:29:09
SPEAKER_00: you get some,
1:29:10
SPEAKER_00: some years under your belt and you go,
1:29:11
SPEAKER_00: wow.
1:29:12
SPEAKER_00: Like,
1:29:12
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
1:29:13
SPEAKER_00: I think there's a growing,
1:29:13
SPEAKER_00: there should be a growing appreciation for the grace and mercy of God.
1:29:18
And the fact that we get to do what an honor,
1:29:20
what a joy who's sufficient for these things.
1:29:22
SPEAKER_00: It's not me.
1:29:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I'm not God's gift to anything.
1:29:25
God's gift to me is to pluck me out of the fire,
1:29:29
uh,
1:29:29
you know,
1:29:29
and set,
1:29:30
set my feet on a rock.
1:29:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a,
1:29:32
SPEAKER_00: There's a pastor friend of mine who has a picture right next to his desk,
1:29:38
SPEAKER_00: and it's a turtle on top of a fence post.
1:29:41
SPEAKER_00: And just literally just full on the legs hanging off.
1:29:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's a conversation starter.
1:29:46
And so the obvious question is,
1:29:47
well,
1:29:48
he'll say,
1:29:48
so how did the turtle get there?
1:29:50
SPEAKER_00: And people don't know what to say.
1:29:52
SPEAKER_00: And he says, you know, someone had to put them there.
1:29:54
SPEAKER_00: And he says, that's me.
1:29:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, I was put in this role, put in this.
1:29:58
SPEAKER_00: I've been called to this.
1:30:00
SPEAKER_00: I certainly am not sufficient to keep myself here.
1:30:02
SPEAKER_00: But praise be to God, you know, who gives us the victory.
1:30:08
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you know, let's get out of it.
1:30:11
SPEAKER_02: Pilgrim, thank you so much for your time today.
1:30:13
SPEAKER_02: There's so much more I want to chat with you about.
1:30:15
SPEAKER_02: So hopefully maybe this will be part one of a little mini series.
1:30:19
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:30:19
But I'm so thankful for your friendship and your connection and
1:30:23
your heart for ministry.
1:30:24
SPEAKER_02: And I'll be praying for you and your family.
1:30:26
SPEAKER_02: And again, just thanks for your time today.
1:30:29
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:30:30
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me on.
1:30:32
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
1:30:33
SPEAKER_02: I hope you've been blessed by this episode.
1:30:35
SPEAKER_02: If you haven't yet,
1:30:36
be sure to subscribe to Ministry Minded on Apple Podcasts or
1:30:39
Spotify or wherever
1:30:40
SPEAKER_02: you get your podcasts.
1:30:41
SPEAKER_02: And again, thanks to Pilgrim for hopping on this episode.
1:30:44
Make sure you connect with him online and make sure you follow
1:30:47
him and stay connected with him.
1:30:49
He's always good about sending out reminders about how he can
1:30:53
pray for you.
1:30:53
So make sure you connect with him and he's just an encouraging
1:30:57
dear brother.
1:30:58
But thank you all for listening and for commenting and
1:31:01
subscribing to this.
1:31:03
to this podcast and hopefully it's a blessing to you and make
1:31:07
sure you stay in the
1:31:08
SPEAKER_02: know and stay in touch with me as I'll see you hopefully,
1:31:11
SPEAKER_02: Lord willing,
1:31:11
SPEAKER_02: very soon.
1:31:12
SPEAKER_02: See you in the next episode.
1:31:13
SPEAKER_02: Blessings.