Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 788: Speaking The Truth with Joseph Bobrow, PhD

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Episode 788: Speaking The Truth with Joseph Bobrow, PhD · The Trauma Therapist

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All right, welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
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My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be
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human, to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer
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in who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires
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cultivating authenticity, genuineness and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
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about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
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That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. So five four,
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three, two and one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
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I am very excited to have back Doctor Joseph Mobrow. Joseph, welcome,
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good to be here. Thank you so. Doctor Barborough practice of psychotherapy
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and analysis and is the author of three books. His approach is formed by
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years of practicing and teaching Zen mindfulness. He lives in practices in Studio City,
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California, and consults and teaches widely on psychotherapy, Buddhism and how they
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enrich each other in transforming suffering. Joseph is also the founding director in Roshi
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of Deep Streams Zan Institute, which offers in practice interdisciplinary education and community service.
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He's long been bringing together the best from Buddhist and psychodynamic traditions in his
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work to alleviate individual and collective anguish. Most recently, he developed intricative retreats
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from military vets and their families and care providers that help heal the unseen wounds
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of war. Doctor Barborough, Welcome back to the podcast. Great to be
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with you guy. Thanks, always excited to have you back here. Your
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directness, you were, openness, your obvious intellect and wisdom and your presence
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is just so refreshing and it's what I hope this podcast is all about,
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and it's why I love having you back here. So you had mentioned,
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you know, we kind of got in touch and the Dalai Lama's presence in
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the news was it was kind of a big issue for what seemed really like
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a blip. It didn't get didn't seem to get a lot of fair play,
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but it got some. So we were going to talk about that weird
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how did this land for you? What what came up? Well, what
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came up for me was that something was a myth and we needed to understand
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it better and that we needed to investigate and help clarify what had happened,
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and I went on social media and made that request to spiritual teachers who happened
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to be in my feed and just interrupt, Can you just briefly give our
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listeners some contexts for those who are like, what are we talking about here?
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Because some people might not be aware of what happened or Oh, there
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was an interaction the doll Lama had with a young Indian boy where there was
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some concern that there had been some sexualized inappropriate conduct on the doll lama part
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in some quarters and in other quarters of fears defending of the dial lama.
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The boy seemed quite uncomfortable during the interaction, Ah Dalai Lama kind of drew
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the boy to him in a way that the boy drew away from Dalai Lama
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drew him close to him again. They touched his Dalai Lama stuck out his
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tongue, which is apparently a form of communication and some some parts of Tibetan
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culture are kind of a greeting, and then the Dalai Lama asked the boy
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to suck his tongue, which the boy did not do, but but did
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their their heads touched and in the full video afterward, the family seemed happy,
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and the boys seemed seemed happy, and everything seemed fine. So that's
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I think a fairly objective statement of what had happened. Yeah, okay,
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so what what's your reflection on on on what occurred? Well, I just
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want to tell the story. Then I'll tell you my reflection and what if
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it was it it brought up for me? Which actually are it is that
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I deal with in book number four, which is called a true person of
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no rank awakening Buddhasts dream to save the world, And maybe I could get
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into some of that as we as we go on. So so here's this
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a little bit of narrative. I put it out on social media in a
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very non judgmental way, just that some things seemed to miss and could some
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of the well known and highly skilled colleagues of mine who were on say Instagram,
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but could we come together and talk things over, share perspectives and so
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on. And I was only able to do that with one of them privately.
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There didn't seem to be a lot of interest in an objective examination of
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what had happened, with the potential meaning of it, the ramifications of it,
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and I was very disappointed. So I continued to post a couple of
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times and to dialogue with his colleague of mine, who finally said that he
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wasn't going to die on that mountain, the mountain of raising concerns validating concerns
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about the doll a Lama's conduct. So that was a dead end. Then
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I saw probably the most popular first most teacher in America, if not in
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the Western world, posts something in which he completely defended the doll Lama and
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basically said, there's no reason to be concerned. Yeah, I don't want
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to get into names. I'm sorry that wasn't sermon, but I just don't
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want to get into names. But clearly one of the most respected people was
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also a therapist and basically was implying as much to do about nothing, and
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the doll Lama is pure and I can vouch for it that now. Now,
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this was very troubling to me because it eed elighted what I was asking
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for, which was an open consideration of the fact that something did not feel
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right about that interrection to many people, to most people. Then what happened
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was that same person with three or four of their friends, who all of
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them are the cream of the crop of American Buddhism, and all of whom
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were therapists and knowledgeable about trauma, came out with exactly the same message.
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We know his holiness, he would never do anything to harm this boy.
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It's just a silly, any kind of funny interaction. And plus the way
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that the video was released, it was probably done by the Chinese to get
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over on the Di Lama. Now, when I saw this, this,
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I mean I was really I was really stopped and disappointed that these people would
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take this kind of tack and not validate just just the observations that this boy
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seemed uncomfortable, I mean just that, and would not and would say,
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well, if you looked at the whole video, then you would see that
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everyone was ended up happy, completely avoiding the pressure that the boy might have
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felt to laugh and go along and with someone of great spiritual stature. So
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where this leads me is a number of different places that I could go,
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but I want to start with you know, co Hut talked about self objects
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and how we all need people who we can revere, who we can look
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up to, and I think we need such beings for all our lives.
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No matter who we are, we know that we stand on the shoulders of
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others who who we respect and admire and love. And clearly the Dali Lama
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represents that for many people, including these teachers I was referring to, and
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other researchers and teachers who've interacted with him through the years. However, I
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think that it is potentially traumatic to recognize the humanity of our self objects and
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to let in disappointment about their conduct, and so it doesn't happen, and
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so our spiritual teachers, sometimes our therapists, or our other teachers, or
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whoever we hold in this role for us, become idealized, and this permits
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a lot of damage to go on. So that's where I'd like to start
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the discussion. And again I talk about this in this fourth book, about
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how sometimes where are the last people to know the impacts of our we have
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examined ourselves. In fact, I'll stare with you in interaction with the Dilma
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earlier about this very thing. But just to start out with the point that
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experts, therapist, analysts, spiritual teachers often think that we're not subject to
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the same blind spots that ordinary humanity is. And we won't say that,
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but somewhere it's part of our self concepts, maybe just beneath the surface.
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And what I talk about in the fourth book is the importance of cracking the
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traces of the impacts that our conduct. Our conduct has impacts, many of
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which we're not aware of. So if we're not aware of them, if
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there is such a thing as the unconscious, which is a big point I
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make in the book too, how I think the unconscious needs to be woven
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into this. Then if we acknowledge that we're often the last to know the
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impacts of our conducts, then we should want to ask and follow up.
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And when someone comes to us and raises an issue, we didn't brush them
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away. We say, well, please, you may be the prophet.
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You may be seeing things I missed, so I want to hear from you.
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I want to weave that in because I want to maximize the beneficial impacts
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of my conduct, and if they've not been beneficial, I want to know.
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So I was very troubled that people not only of stature, but of
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wisdom and intelligence and experience would not even raise the possibility that there was something
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amiss, and would subtly convey that there might have been something wrong with the
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people who were who were reading stuff into it, and an American kind of
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anxiety about sexual abuse, a kind of what was COVID, a kind of
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pandemic of worry about sexual abuse. It's the American puritanical culture which is reading
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in which doesn't understand the Tibetan culture. I mean, these arguments were not
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only upside down to me, but they're very troubling and filled with denihialism,
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and I am troubled by that, if I may hear so. When this
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first happened, which was a couple of months ago, it was all over
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the news, I remember seeing it and initially being really troubled. I mean,
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it was disturbing. I watched the video and even that was disturbing,
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and then I I think I saw something online where I think it was well.
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I went in and I looked up Robert Thurman, who's a Buddhist scholar.
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I think he's at Harvard right now, but one of the most well
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respected people in the field, and he wrote something kind of extensive on this
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which kind of explained it away. In other words, he said that this
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conduct that was going on with the sucking of the tongues was in fact some
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practice ancient practice, And I know I'm kind of paraphrasing here, but I
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walked away from that reading like, oh ooh, okay, it's not what
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it looked like. It wasn't as disturbing. This was, in fact an
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actual religious slash Buddhist practice that goes on. Now, that was my reading
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of essentially of what he said. Now are you saying that that's not the
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case, and maybe that's even denying what's going on. I'm not an expert
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in Tibetan culture. I've met the Dalai Lama several times. He wrote the
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forward to my book Waking Up for More. I had something to do with
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one of his closest colleagues, who was the first president of the country independent
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Country of Tibet, in Armsala. I am very well disposed to the Dalai
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Lama, and I find Bob Thurman usually very well in form and informative.
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However, I think I agree with you when you said things get explained away.
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And even if which which I don't grant, but even if what he
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said is so that not only the sticking out of the tongue, but the
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sucking of the tongue is part and parcel of Tibetan culture and nothing to be
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concerned about in the slightest. Even if that is so, there's a whole
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other culture in the world that would see it and be impacted quite differently.
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And the boy with whom he engaged in that clearly didn't know this this cultural
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artifact because he kept pulling away and he did not suck the dollar Alma's tongue,
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and he was Indian, he wasn't Tibetan, So at the very least,
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there was a lack of awareness of the culture of the person he was
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with and the culture of around the world who are observing this, and the
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impacts that this had, the ramscasins that this had, and at the very
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least it would call for a cross cultural dialogue in which people would engage the
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dilema and let him know that even though this may have apparently allegedly been part
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of Tibetan culture, there are other cultural viewpoints about that that involved boundary crossings,
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sexual and appropriateness and a whole continuum up until sexual abuse and uh there
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could have been at least a mutual learning and a discussion of how it could
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have come across, not just due to American hysteria, but due to American
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progress in understanding trauma for goodness sakes. Yeah, well, I mean I
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think your your point is well taken. Uh you know, it seems you
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try to reach out and for all intents and purposes, you're you're reaching out
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called upon deaf years. But I think really it remains to be seen.
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Was this in fact or is that was his Were his actions based in fact
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on some religious practice? And okay? So oh okay, okay, who
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they were based on some religious practice. It's not as bad as it seems.
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Yes, he crossed some cultural boundaries. But uh, hold on a
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second, guy, I have to I have to put back here. Over
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the years, there have been a lot of religious practices that have been bad
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for human beings, right, and which have been justified by the fact that
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God told me to do it or it's part of my religion. So come
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on, now, I don't know where you were going with it, but
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I just wanted to catch it in. No, no, no, that's
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a fair point. I guess what I'm just saying is, you know,
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after reading Robert Thurman's essay again which he seemed to back this on the basis
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of this with some religious practice, and it wasn't as bad as it seemed.
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But yeah, you're right, it it however you slice and dice it,
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it doesn't. It's not a good look on the dollar. I mean
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it's abusive. Let's call it for what it is. I mean, asking
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this kid to suck your tongue. Come on. Yeah, So I'm less
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interested at this point. I'm glad we see eyed eye on that I would
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agree with you, but what I'm you see. At the same time as
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this was being processed, a couple of weeks later, a fellows and teacher
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named Grace Spearnson Pearson was co leading a workstop on preventing sexual abuse in buddhistanis
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the six part series. It was terrific and in that series he addressed the
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problems that I was resonating with. I mean, there are many problems with
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this, but what concerns me the most again is the blind spots and how
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we are traumatized or afraid of being traumatized by seeing our role models as real
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people, and how dangerous this is. Now, I will say something about
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the Tibetan culture, which I've read about and is backed up by research,
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and that there was I can find the reference. I don't have it offhand,
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but there was a study done over a long period of time traveling to
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many Asian countries, including including the tibet and the Tibetan monasteries in India,
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to explore the phenomenon of abuse of some of the monks throughout Asia. And
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when this researcher talked about her visit to many Tibetan monasteries where there are thousands
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of young boys and there's a history of not only orphans, but but young
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boys being given over to the to the monastery into the training and this brings
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merit on the parents. And there have been some accounts of abuse within the
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monasteries. And this particular research froom met three or four senior people there who
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said that there is some problem, but it's not discussed and basically I'm not
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going to discuss it with you. In so, there is in some religious
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traditions a worship of the spiritual teacher as a goodu who can do no wrong,
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and the problem is yours. If you're even raising a concern, you
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must be deluded. And Tibetan culture and religion is not the only one,
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but it's one of the ones where the guru culture is quite strong, and
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I've heard this many times about teachers who've committed misconduct. It's not what it
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looked like. It's not what it looks like. Well, it's exactly what
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it looks like and sometimes worse. So that's the other thing that occurred to
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me. If the Dalai Lama can be so free to do something that felt
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out of line at the very least, if not to use your word,
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abusive, then what's being done or what's being countenanced behind the scenes. We
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know now that in many Tibetan songas you know, there's a lot of uprising
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of songas regarding abuse by teachers. I mean not only in the Catholic church
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or there's en tradition, but but in the Tibetan resistance. And there is
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a little bit of a cultural lag because some people went over a few years
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ago to try to instruct and raise the dilama's consciousness about sexual misconduct on the
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part of some teachers, which he hadn't been calling out, and it took
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several tries for him to finally come and in a kind of lukewarm way,
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say that this is not acceptable. So there's something that we Westerners, Guy
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have to bring to this problem of blind spots and sexual abuse and religious distance,
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and it has to do with a few things. One is the importance
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of trauma. Secondly is the importance of the unconscious transmitment of trauma and the
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fact that blind thoughts exist, which means the unconscious exists, and we need
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others to help us know ourselves. So these are things that we in the
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West can and must bring to an integrative dialogue about what it means to be
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a spiritual or psychological authority or healer. Yeah, I mean, I think
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that's very well put into your point. If the you know, the scholars
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aren't willing to engage in a dialogue, who is right? I mean,
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if the Dalai Lama, you could say, maybe is in some circles,
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you know, some a spiritual north star. If he's doing this, what
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what am I to think? What am I to do? If I'm a
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if I'm a religious scholar, how am I going to comment on that this
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person my religious north star who's moved off center to such a degree. Well,
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you you wouldn't even think of commenting on it. That's the problem,
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right, It wouldn't even occur to you because couldn't be right, and that's
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the danger. You wouldn't even let yourself think it. All right, let's
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just pause here for a second to thank our sponsors. All Right, we
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are back. You know this. Uh. I'm gonna bring up something here
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that I'm just reminded of and the situation with bessel Vandercock huh that occurred.
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There was a couple of years ago. I think there was some uh people
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had with whom he'd been working said he was uh verbally abusive and bullying.
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And I don't know if you're aware of this, but it was it.
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I think it got him fired from a particular uh place of employment. But
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it's something that people in the field don't talk about. Again, you know,
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it's it's a similar situation. But what do you what are you proposing
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here? I'm proposing an integrative ideal of the enlightened or awakened person. That's
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what I'm proposing. Nothing short of that, because clearly people like the dial
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I Lama, let's just stick with him or or that zen teachers who have
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jumped through all the hoops and been checked by all the senior teachers and there
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and so their tory, their awakening has been approved, and they've been authorized,
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and it turns out that some of them do ill do harmful things.
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So even having the kind of experiential knowledge and teaching ability that bessel vander Cult
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has, there's still a matter of his character which may not get pained by
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all his learning. And what I'm what I've been learning over the years and
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been writing about, especially in my first book and the fourth book, the
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late latest one, is that very fact that this conundrum that that how is
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it that insight direct insights into the acredness of an interconnection of all life which
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was thought to completely transform the individual and assure that their conduct would be irreproachable.
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How is it that that paradigm doesn't work? What's missing, And what's
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missing is what I'm trying to talk about. What's missing is an understanding that
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And I'm not with those people who throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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There are some Zen teachers who say, you know, you've made such a
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fuss about enlightenment now that that that will just dispense with it. What matters
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is your embodiment of the teachings. Are you a good person? Is the
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karma you're sponsoring benevolence, Are you helpful? Uh you know? Or or
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are you a bully? Or are you an abuser? Or you know something
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like that. So it's a fair point. But I don't like to throw
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out the baby with the bath water because I think the experience of awakening or
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the experience of healing in the psychotherapy setting, these are real things and they
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do they do change things about us, but they need something else. And
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that's something else has to do with See, you know this guy, but
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some preaching to the acquire with you. But our audience is wider than this
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you and me. I know that that's great that we know about emotional regulations,
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but we don't know about unconscious emotional regulations. Interactive emotional regulation has talked
31:47
about, say by or we don't know about unconscious emotional communications. How we
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can think we're coming across one way, but we're really coming across the other
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way. So what happens is that And I was just looking at a summary
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of my book. What happens is our insight and embodiment of that insight,
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our realization, and our personalization of that insight go in and out of alignment.
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Sometimes they're in alignment and sometimes they're not, and when they're not,
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if we don't know that they're out of alignment, then sometimes we end up
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acting in ways that are contrary not only to the teachings but to our own
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insight about the way the way life is, life and death are, what's
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reality, what's the mind, and all those things. So I've been making
32:53
a case for the embody meant of our healing insights, of our transformative spiritual
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insights, and adding something which can counter this kind of lost in translation phenomena.
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But somewhere between prognia, between insights and see laws, which is the
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embodiment of the precepts or goodness and insights, somewhere in there something gets lost
33:27
in translation. And I'm proposing a more integrative view where we don't just do
33:35
conscious practices, but we're aware of the unconscious in four different ways. One
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is as a communication that things emotions are being communicated unconsciously in what Adam Phillips
33:50
called the black market of emotions, so we have to be open to that
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level of communication. The second is that our motivation are not always what we
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think they are. And plus the road to hell is lined with good intentions,
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but they're conscious intentions. Most motivation is unconscious. The third is that
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emotional regulation is one thing. Having conscious awareness of our emotions is one thing.
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But there is such a thing as source as again called interactive regulation,
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which happens beneath the surface of consciousness, where we're helping regulate one another's arouse
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the levels of anxiety. And if we're with that and of that, then
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we know it can be a good thing. But there can also be unconscious
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emotional disthregulations, right, and we can be doing something differently than we think
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we're doing. And then the fourth unconscious element is the unconscious strenth mission of
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trauma. That we're being a sail by bits and residues of trauma picked up
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usually through our bodies, as we're coming to know, but not organized in
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a coherent conscious way, so that trauma is transmitted not only into generationally but
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within ourselves. Is transmitted from our early experience unconsciously, and if we're unconscious
35:36
of that trauma, we will act it out, most likely thinking that we're
35:42
doing good. So I have been advocating the continuing education of the spiritual featre
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and the therapist to include these elements so we can shine a light on what
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gets lost in translates, and we can event harm and we can increase the
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chances of benevolent impact. Wow, this topic, unconscious transmission of trauma,
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brings up a lot for me. And so you're saying, are you covering
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this in your fourth book? Yeah, you said, let's give our listeners
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the name of that book. Okay, I was trying to find a copy.
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There's got kind of a nice cover on it. Is that Zen and
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Psychotherapy? No, that that was my first book. That was two thousands
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true A true person of no rank? Yes, okay, true person of
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no rank, awakening Buddhist dream to save the world. That's right, Awakening
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Buddhist dream. That's to say it's just a dream. It was Buddhist dream.
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It was reflected in his teachings, in his contact, in his conduct.
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But it's up to each of us to awaken that dream through our own
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embodyment. This is really interesting to me, this this topic. And it's
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interesting Joseph, because I don't think I've really talked about it surprisingly or not
37:27
on this podcast. But you, obviously, with your somewhat unique backgrounds to
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be the person to bring it into the light. How obviously in addition to
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the book. Are you are you doing this in other ways? Are you
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trying to continue discussions with people that you mentioned You're reaching out on Instagram and
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so forth. Yeah, I I I let the book do the talking.
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At this point I mentioned Gray Sherifson, who I think is absolutely terrific on
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this stuff, and who knows, maybe at some point SI and I will
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do some teaching together. I have been teaching. I have been speaking about
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my book at various locations where I'm invited and sort of expanding the paradigm of
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what awakening is, what the awakened person is, and how we can join
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our insights and our embodiments and make use of our character rather than have our
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character be our affliction because it's unconscious. So I've been talking to a different
38:57
group. I've been talking to grew of psychotherapists about the meditative dimension of psychotherapy
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where two people are sitting in the room mind, body, soul and they
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are kind of I'll just use the word, they're kind of vibing together.
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They're thinking together, they're talking together, they're observing each other, they're listening
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to each other, and they're communicating consciously and unconsciously and in that process,
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which I call a meditation adieu, the two person meditation stuff arises that neither
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one can predict. And the analyst beyond called that the emotional truth. So
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it's not necessarily what you say or how you say it, but it's this
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deeper emotional truth might flowed up. It's the conditions or right if both people
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are collaborating in this meditative way. So I try to fare that with analysts,
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but in terms of the ethical questions and the I haven't really done much
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with it lately. But I agreed to talk with you guy because I trust
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you and I knew that I would be able to share this idea, this
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core idea today, which is that I think what keeps the people I've been
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talking about from opening up to the possibility that there was a transgression and to
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doing an investigation of that and a mutual elucidation of that, not in a
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kangaroo court kind of way, not presuming anything, but in a very open
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minded way where we both can learn from something from that. What keeps these
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people doing it is a very rigid self object structure where their beloved objects can
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do no wrong, and that is terribly dangerous in fact, one famous person
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in this group you know, would frequently say it's going to cast a bad
41:34
light on Buddhism. And I think the opposite is true, that not raising
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it casts a bad light on Buddhism, just like not raising it in the
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Catholic Church fast the terrible light on Catholicism and they're losing so many people,
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all right. And not only does it does it cast a bad light,
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but it allows it to fester, the fester unaddressed, right, unaddressed,
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and to grow, to grow right, right, Joseph, what's the best
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way for people to get in contact with you? Probably through my website Josephbobroa
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dot com or the website of our zen group deep Streams Institute, which is
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deep stream dot org. Okay, and we'll have that linked up here at
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the show notes page at the Trauma Tapists podcast dot com. The book is
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called A True Person of No Rank, Awakening Buddhist Dream to Save the World
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always enlightening, if I can use that word. Have you on here,
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It's a pleasure and I'd love to have you back as always. Thank you
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so much, Joseph, Thank you guy. I always feel so unencumbered and
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so open and your openness I think always makes for a really vibrant extain.
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So thank you so much. You're welcome, I appreciate that. Take care
43:05
you too,