Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / Shannon Penn breaks down Kobe Bryant, Caitlin Clark & Coach K: The Rise of Stan Culture in Sports | 7.30

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Shannon Penn breaks down Kobe Bryant, Caitlin Clark & Coach K: The Rise of Stan Culture in Sports | 7.30 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A wave original.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: My name is Beaumont Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: a hater. It is that time of week where we
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  Speaker 1: have a guest join us, helping us to supplement our
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: list of the top 25 athletes of the last 25
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: years in the year 2025. Check out our previous episodes.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: We are all the way through from 25 to 11.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: The top 10 is what's coming up next. But for
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: right now, to help me talk about this, got my man.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Check him out on ESPN Radio with Freddie and Harry.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Shannon Penn, what's going on, sir?
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  Speaker 2: Bo, what's good, man?
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: I love when you shoot, by the way, you got
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: you got the you got the curve situation behind you like.
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  Speaker 2: That little bay window.
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  Speaker 1: I don't even know the name of it. That's Shannon. Like, no, no, no.
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  Speaker 1: Let me show you how we do this over here.
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  Speaker 2: No, I wanted to say, too, before we get started,
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to say thank you to you. Because last
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: week you just celebrated 10 years at ESPN. So wouldn't
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  Speaker 2: have been able to do that and accomplish that feat
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  Speaker 2: without you. And we joke all the time about the
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  Speaker 2: grind and what the grind is. But you helped me
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  Speaker 2: understand what the grind is. So before we get into
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  Speaker 2: the top 25 athletes the last 25 years, I want
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  Speaker 2: to say thank you and start off this podcast by
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  Speaker 2: saying that.
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  Speaker 1: Dude, I appreciate that. And it actually makes me a
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  Speaker 1: little emotional because I talk about this all the time
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  Speaker 1: and I don't think I don't think that people, I
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  Speaker 1: think a lot of people are new. I have to
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  Speaker 1: remember that, right? Like we've been doing this for a while.
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  Speaker 1: We get people who show up who I forget, don't
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  Speaker 1: necessarily know the context. I'm not doing any of this.
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  Speaker 1: Like Shannon talked about 10 years at ESPN. I'm literally
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  Speaker 1: not doing any of this except for one day I
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  Speaker 1: was coming in. I was doing fill-in radio in Raleigh
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  Speaker 1: in the year 2007. And it was cool, but I
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  Speaker 1: didn't necessarily think it was going nowhere. And I'm coming
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  Speaker 1: in on a Sunday morning. And this dude's sitting there
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  Speaker 1: behind the board. I don't know who this is. And
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  Speaker 1: Shannon got a little bit of New York in him.
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  Speaker 1: So he just kind of like, yeah, good to see you.
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  Speaker 1: Unimpressed ass. This sort of stuff. And I don't remember.
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  Speaker 1: It was the first show. It must have been the
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  Speaker 1: second show. But the second show we did. See, we
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  Speaker 1: do radio on Sunday morning. Nobody like nobody. Your bosses
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  Speaker 1: aren't listening. Nobody cares. You're there by yourself. And we
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  Speaker 1: play two straight verses of I'm bad. Straight through, straight through,
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  Speaker 1: jumping up and down in the studio, out of breath
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  Speaker 1: and everything. And I was like, you know, I think
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  Speaker 1: I could do this. And so then when they brought
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  Speaker 1: me on, not even full time, Adam Gold brought me
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  Speaker 1: on to do Saturdays. And he was like, and I'm
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  Speaker 1: going to have you with Shannon. Shannon had been working
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Sundays at that point. But he was like, nah, you
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  Speaker 1: guys seem to have a chemistry. And he wouldn't even
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: be a racist. And we're going to put this together.
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  Speaker 1: And that was when I realized what was possible. Like
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: think about like all the stuff we used to come
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  Speaker 1: up with. But we're like, yo, I got this idea.
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  Speaker 1: Let's put this on the road.
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  Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's do it.
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  Speaker 1: Let's do that. And then I get the satellite and
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  Speaker 1: I was able to like, but we do like those
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  Speaker 1: documentaries and stuff. Shannon will produce those. Right. I said
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: a little money that way. We put these things together.
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  Speaker 1: And then when I got on at ESPN radio, I
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  Speaker 1: wanted a two year deal. They'd only give me a
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: one year deal. And I said, well, if you're only
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: going to give me a one year deal, you got
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  Speaker 1: to give me my guy. And they said, OK. I
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  Speaker 1: was like, hey, Shannon, let me run something by you
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  Speaker 1: right fast. Here we are.
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  Speaker 2: Here we are. So with that being said, once again,
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  Speaker 2: thank you. And looking forward to everything I'm doing now,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: what you're doing, and looking forward to getting into this today.
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  Speaker 1: Also, big win for the kids, boy. They got to
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: go to Disney a lot. You know what I'm saying?
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  Speaker 2: To the point, they got to a point when we're
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  Speaker 2: living in Florida, we're like, we got to go to
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  Speaker 2: Disney again? Yeah, we got to go to Disney again.
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  Speaker 2: You see these prices? Yeah, we getting into Disney for free. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: we going again. You going to ride that Dumbo. Space
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  Speaker 2: Mountain ain't just for Ric Flair. You going to ride
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  Speaker 2: that too.
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  Speaker 1: Hey, man, it was a big loss to my friends
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  Speaker 1: with kids when I left, boy. Like, the cats hit
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  Speaker 1: me up. Yo, man, you got them extra tickets, right? Yeah, cool.
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  Speaker 1: I got you all the extra tickets. When you a
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  Speaker 1: single man with no kids and you work at ESPN,
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  Speaker 1: you Disney man. You might as well, you know, they
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  Speaker 1: fire you for it, but you might as well stand
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  Speaker 1: outside selling them things.
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  Speaker 2: Right, right. Especially the prices that they are now. Jeez.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, dog. But, Shannon and I wanted to talk about
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  Speaker 1: something that has been, it's a phenomenon of the last
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  Speaker 1: 25 years, though I would argue more closely. It's a
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  Speaker 1: phenomenon of the last 15 that comes around with the
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  Speaker 1: advent of Twitter and the spread of it. But it
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  Speaker 1: is the rise of Stan culture in sports. Right. And
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  Speaker 1: as I was thinking about, you know, discussing this and
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  Speaker 1: I'll get to be able to our multiple points of
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  Speaker 1: entry that the two of us have together as a pair.
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  Speaker 1: But it dawned on me when I was thinking about this,
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  Speaker 1: that the true origins of Stan culture is not with players, right?
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  Speaker 1: Like they've always been larger than life figures in sports,
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  Speaker 1: whether you're talking about Babe Ruth, right? Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle,
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  Speaker 1: Michael Jordan, like going up and down the line. there
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  Speaker 1: was a super level of fandom that didn't necessarily feel insane, right?
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  Speaker 1: It did not feel like you were pledging fealty for
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  Speaker 1: your lifetime to these people, right? So as much as
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  Speaker 1: it seems like that with Jordan, The way that people
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  Speaker 1: talk defensively about Jordan has become a reaction, I think,
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  Speaker 1: to the new Jordan has been immersed into the new
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  Speaker 1: culture of Stan.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: But like you could you could be a big fan
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  Speaker 1: of Michael Jackson. And if somebody wasn't as big a
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  Speaker 1: fan of Michael Jackson as you, you had to call
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  Speaker 1: him a name. Right. Like there was the Michael Jackson
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  Speaker 1: fans of the Prince fans. But it wasn't like the
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  Speaker 1: beaded video when they showed up in the same spot.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Like when everybody eyeing each other down or Beatles and Stones,
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  Speaker 1: for example, it wasn't that same way. But the place
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  Speaker 1: where I realized that stand culture has existed the most
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  Speaker 1: in sports, college coaches. That feels like the outright beginning
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  Speaker 1: of what it is to be a stand. The idea
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  Speaker 1: that you defend no matter what, right? That you ride
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  Speaker 1: with them till the end and against any oppositional force.
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  Speaker 1: Think about folks in Indiana with Bobby Knight, for example.
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  Speaker 2: No, that's a great one, too. And it's like with
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  Speaker 2: college coaches, they have so much power. And a lot
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  Speaker 2: of times these colleges are in small towns. So they
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  Speaker 2: are the biggest these coaches. Well, it's football, basketball. They
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  Speaker 2: are the biggest and most important, most prominent figures on
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  Speaker 2: these these campuses year in and year out. Whereas, you know,
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  Speaker 2: with the students, the athletes, they're cycling in every year.
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  Speaker 2: And back then it was every three, four years. Now, essentially,
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  Speaker 2: it's every year. But they were the most prominent forces
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  Speaker 2: year in and year out. And we didn't have the
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  Speaker 2: change in head coaching like we do now. So you
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  Speaker 2: would have a 10 year coach be there 10 plus,
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  Speaker 2: 15 plus, some cases 20 plus years where we don't
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  Speaker 2: see that today.
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  Speaker 1: It was like high school where he just coach, coach
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  Speaker 1: been here, coach been here forever. You know what I'm saying? Like, like,
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  Speaker 1: you know, it is interesting because like that role of coaching.
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  Speaker 1: To this day, at least the ones that are still alive,
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  Speaker 1: I still call my coaches coach. You know what I mean?
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  Speaker 1: Like that's just, that's what it is. House coach.
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  Speaker 2: Do you refer to someone that you didn't play for
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  Speaker 2: as coach?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it depends. Like the history teacher that
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  Speaker 1: was also a coach, right? I think I may refer
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  Speaker 1: to them as such, but it don't feel. Right, right.
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  Speaker 2: It's funny because we have Herm Edwards in studio during
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  Speaker 2: the football season every Monday, right? And he's fine with
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  Speaker 2: us calling him Herm. I call him Coach. I never
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  Speaker 2: played a down in my life in the NFL, but
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  Speaker 2: I still don't call him Coach. I text him, hey, Coach,
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  Speaker 2: you still good for today? Absolutely. Honestly, it's that sign
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  Speaker 2: of respect as well when you have some figures.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like you're supposed to. We use coach
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  Speaker 1: like your honor, admiral, right? Like we are using these,
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  Speaker 1: we use it with.
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  Speaker 3: A, in spite of all the coaches we know that
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  Speaker 3: we are fully aware are unworthy of such respect.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: We're still going to do it. Like, in fact, that's
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  Speaker 1: what's interesting. In the NFL, they talk about this, like
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  Speaker 1: in college, you call your coach coach. In the NFL,
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  Speaker 1: you call your coach Bob or whatever it is. I'm like,
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  Speaker 1: I think you call some of them that. I bet
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  Speaker 1: what nobody calling Don Shula Don.
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  Speaker 2: Yo, Don. Yo, Donny. Yo, Don. Yo, let me ask
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  Speaker 2: you real quick, bro.
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  Speaker 1: Yo, D.
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  Speaker 2: Yo, D.
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  Speaker 1: Like, I bet you nobody was doing that. But you
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  Speaker 1: and I came up around one of the more interesting
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  Speaker 1: Coach Stan situations, which is Maisha Shefsky. Yep. And we
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  Speaker 1: came up in that as... young Black people and it
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  Speaker 1: was Duke. We wouldn't. We didn't believe.
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  Speaker 2: No. And you gotta give context. This is pre- one-and-done,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: for the exception of Corey Maggette, this is pre-one-and-done John
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  Speaker 2: Wall recruitment at Duke. That was something different. That was
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: something different where the caliber of Duke player and Duke
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  Speaker 2: recruit is totally different than it is now.
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  Speaker 1: Right, and Luol Deng. Luol Deng was the other one-and-done
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  Speaker 1: that they had. But no, you're right. Prior to that,
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  Speaker 1: this was pre-how we hoop, if you know, you know.
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  Speaker 1: This is before how we hoop came up, and Krzyzewski,
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  Speaker 1: Krzyzewski to me was like the first truly polarizing coach
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  Speaker 1: in that way like even Knight who was absolutely boorish
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  Speaker 1: and everything else like if you did not like Bob
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Knight there were real clear things for you to point
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  Speaker 1: to to say why you didn't Krzyzewski man I just
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: don't rock with him I don't just like I just
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: don't get down with what they do but it was
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  Speaker 1: also with Dean Smith as the counterpoint who certainly had
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  Speaker 1: a cult of personality around him it just so happens
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  Speaker 1: that the cult of personality there was largely rooted in
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: very important and noble things right like I low-key integrated
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: a state, right? I integrated an entire conference for basketball
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  Speaker 1: and sports, right? You end up... with that sort of guy.
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  Speaker 1: But I think I can speak to the explanation as
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  Speaker 1: to why it is that we wind up with the
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  Speaker 1: Stan culture around coaching in college. It is because the
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  Speaker 1: colleges represent identity for people in large part, right? So
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  Speaker 1: I've talked about this many times that I read Barry
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Switzer's autobiography called Bootlegger Boy, which is a really interesting read,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: if not the most totally sincere book that I have
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: ever read. But it's Barry Switzer. Like, you know, the
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: game is the game. But there was a chapter where
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: he allowed the president of the university to jump in.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: And the president of the university made the point that
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: after the grapes of wrath, the self-esteem, of Oklahomans was
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: so low and like the idea of an Okie, like
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: that being a legitimate slur, that the state determined that
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: they needed something that the people could be proud of,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: something to make them feel proud of being from Oklahoma.
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  Speaker 1: And they decided that that thing would be OU football.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: And so like, why is Oklahoma good when they don't
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: have any real built-in comparative advantage? Want to. And the
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: want to comes back to the idea that the football
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  Speaker 1: team was there to serve a purpose for the identity
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  Speaker 1: of the people. If you read Buzz Bichinger's Friday Night Lights,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: the whole point about Odessa Permian High School is how
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: we tied into the identities of those people. Right. The
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  Speaker 1: coach then becomes a reflection of that identity and placing
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  Speaker 1: a portion of your identity onto something to me is the.
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  Speaker 1: First ingredient in standing, right? Like the basis of becoming
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  Speaker 1: a stand is your identity rests on the thing for
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  Speaker 1: which you stand. And so when you look at the ones,
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  Speaker 1: the coaches that we talk about that really had people
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  Speaker 1: bear Bryant, a great example, Alabama's like, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: we're not just a bunch of races down here. We're
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  Speaker 1: good at football too.
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  Speaker 2: We can do both.
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  Speaker 1: Right. But my favorite thing about Alabama though was, When
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: they came down to the racism or the football, they
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: voted for the football. Right. Right. Like what's what's it
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: was like, OK, guys, we're not doing this anymore. They're like,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: all right, well, if we're going to do it, I
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: guess we're just going to have to do it. And
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: they did it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't just let grandma take all the good players. Right.
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  Speaker 1: What's the state of affairs changed? They were like, oh, OK,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: then we're going to get like we ain't going to
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  Speaker 1: get that many more than we have to. But wow,
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  Speaker 1: I wish I could say how I want to say it. But, uh.
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  Speaker 1: we're not going to be out-blacked. Right?
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  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 1: Like, we're not going to take them all. Like, Texas decided, yeah,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: y'all can out-black us. It's okay. Like, we're just, we'd
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: rather be this than be really good at football. Alabama
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  Speaker 1: was like, no, sir, because their identity is way too
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: tied up in being good at football.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: And I wanted to, when you said the first ingredient
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  Speaker 2: of first step with stand-up is identifying with said you know, coach, team,
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  Speaker 2: or what have you. How does that differ from the
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: general fan when that first starts, when you're just a
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: fan of a program, a team, compared to being a
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: stand and that being a reflection of yourself? What's the
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: difference there?
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  Speaker 1: That is very interesting. So this is my thought, because
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: obviously people, teams, some teams have done this more strongly
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  Speaker 1: than others, where they have created, it's a thin line
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: between an identity and a brand, right? And so they have,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: so the Yankees, I don't know if I would say
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: the Yankees created an identity that the people latch on
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: to or just a really strong brand. Because I don't
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: think Yankees fans look at the Yankees and necessarily see themselves.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: Like you could say the Yankees represent New York or
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. But like the pristine uniforms, they changed
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: the facial hair code, whatever, the dress code, everything. Like
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: it was a very... A very clean brand that they
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: put forth that certainly they have fans who represent that,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: but that ain't them boys in Washington Heights, right? That
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: ain't them boys up there in the Bronx who love
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: the Yankees just as much as the dudes working finance
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: would love the Yankees, for example. I would say that
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: that falls in line more with a brand, but... Many
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: teams have identities, and that is what their fans then
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: lean into. Great example of a team where you could
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: call it a brand, but I think it's probably more
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: an identity, the Raiders, historically. have been. They were so
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: great for the NFL and why the NFL needs them
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: to get good again. I don't know if you could
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: ever do it the same again, but they were the
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: wrestling heels. They out here cheating. You can tell them cats.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Lester Hayes got all that grease on. They're going to
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: be out here doing all that, doing wild stuff. Although
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: I guess Christian Wilkins went too far. Is that what they... Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: That was a... Somebody needs to tell us exactly what
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: happened here, because otherwise, all we're left to do is
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: imagine based on a few things that we done seen
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: that boy do. And under that case, todo es posible.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: It could be. Shannon has run away from the microphone.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Nah, you can have that. You can have that, dog. Nah,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: that ain't exactly how we doing. The Alabama drill ain't
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: supposed to work that way, Chris. Come on back, dog.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: But this is my question on that, though, is how
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: wild was whatever he did? How wild was it? Because
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: he's good, right? Like, I know he was hurting everything,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: but he's still a good player.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: How wild is it for them to be like, oh, no,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: my brother? Not only do you have to go, we're
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: not going to give you your money. Right, right. What
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: did you do?
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Right, and that's the thing. We don't want to speculate
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: because we don't know the details, but from some of
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: the stuff that's being rumored about, a line was crossed somewhere.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: That is correct.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: It just wasn't this playful things that happened in the
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: locker room of boys being boys. A line was crossed.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Until we find out specifically how far he crossed that line,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: we'll wait, but it had to be something agreeable.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Something happened. But generally speaking about the Raiders, right? Like,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Kenny Stabler was the Raiders, right? Like, you could imagine
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: the Raiders having dudes that actually wore eye patches. And
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: then when you look at who their fans are, it's
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: people who relate to that persona.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: More than the football.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: And it was like that outcast. It's like these other
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: teams have these identities. The Steelers have the Steelers, the Packers,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: the Cowboys. But for Raider fans, it's us. We're the outcasts,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: but we're coming together, and that's going to be our identity.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: It's coming together in that regard.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Right. So I think it gets us to a place
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: where I think we could sum this up most nicely
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: in the idea that there are some teams that you
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: rock with because you like who they are, and some...
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: because you feel like that is who you are. You
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like you feel like, Oh, this team.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: So we talked about this when I did the piece
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: for game theory about Duke basketball, all those black teams, right?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: The black college basketball teams at times where a basketball
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: was not black in that way in college sports. As
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: of that point, the UNLVs, the Arkansas's Georgetown, Georgetown, right?
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: the most ironic identity play in the history of sports, Georgetown.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: That was us.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: And Georgetown, it's funny you bring that up because for
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: a lot of people, because Georgetown was good my whole life.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: So I thought Georgetown was an HBCU. I'm seeing this
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: big black coach I'm seeing this team with Kente cloth
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: on the sides. I'm thinking it's an HBCU because that
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: was their identity. So that was the biggest shock for
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: me when I got older. I was like, wait a minute,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: this is not HBCU?
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: What's so funny is so many, like Florida State had
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: the Kente cloth jerseys. Texas A & M had the
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Kente cloth jerseys, but the only one we remember is
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Georgetown because it fit. Because it fit, right? So we
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: get to a basis where I think when we start
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: talking about the evolution into the culture of the stand,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: What we're getting to is we started with people loved
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: players for who the players were. And it was kind
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: of sort of just, I am a fan of this
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: player because this player is excellent. It could fluctuate a
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: little bit here and there based on stuff that people
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: did or how, you know, their level of play or whatever.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: But overwhelmingly, In the 20th century, you had your guys
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: and you loved your guys and you may have adored
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: them and you may have been really, really into them,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: but you didn't really put so much of yourself into it.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: What I think happened, and I'm curious what you think
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: about this, what I think happened in part is the
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: way that we relate to celebrity changed and the way
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: that we relate to sports changed and we began to...
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: look at it less and relate less to the group
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: and then more so to the person, right? To the
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: individual rather than the larger group, with the exception, again,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: being NFL football, where people are still like, you know,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: you're going to the team. The NBA has sold players,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: for example. So people then go in and they relate
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: to the player. Then take that individual and the way
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: and the fact that we're talking about individuals and look
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: at the changing ways in which we as consumers relate
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: relate to individual anythings and the ways that we then
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: communicate about these things, i.e. on social media, which then
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: makes us more and more tribal in the ways that
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: we go back and forth. And now everybody that you
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: love is part of you. It's not just that I
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: like this athlete. What does liking this athlete say about me?
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: When you say something about this athlete, you are now
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: saying something about me. And here we are, knee-deep in
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: staying land. Exactly.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: That's the perfect description because it went from these teams being...
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, identifying with these teams and liking these teams
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: because they were good or liking these players to now
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: what this player does or how this player plays or
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: what this player says or where becomes a reflection of me.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: So then you have that plus the addition of social media.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: So then it's like I have to go in here
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: and defend this player because in essence, I'm defending myself
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: and my beliefs and why I think the mid range
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: jump shot is not dead because Shea Gildress is able
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: to do it. Or, hey, this player doesn't have to
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: be the face of the NBA if he doesn't want
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: to because he cares more about his horses and winning races.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: It becomes absolutely a reflection of yourself, and now you're
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: up here arguing Really against every and anyone because you're
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: on social media, Twitter, X, whatever you want to call it,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: because you have to defend why it is that I
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: like how this player gets down on and off the
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: court or field.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: And then we added another interesting dilemma where you, as
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: somebody's daddy, I wonder what you think about this. I
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: spent a lot of time around my parents and their
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: friends because I was a quasi-only child, right? So your
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: parents go somewhere, you go, you hang out. My parents
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: are older, so the people we go and hang out with,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: they ain't really got kids my age. So I'm not like,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: we're not running off in the backyard and playing. I'm
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: just there around them. And where that made me very
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: different than my peers and became very helpful is that
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I had an exposure to conversation with adults that you
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: typically didn't have. But they weren't really talking to me
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: like I was an adult, right? Like we weren't having...
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: like level conversations, right? It was still a hierarchical conversation.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: I say that to say the social media has created
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: something that used to never happen before, which is grown
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: folks being part of kids' conversations and kids being part
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: of grown folks' conversations. And for purposes of this discussion,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: I'm saying kids as being people like in their early
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: mid-20s or whatever it is. but also kids being involved
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: in conversations with adults where they are not required to
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: show no goddamn respect, right? And so it's no longer, hey,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: I'm talking to my dad and he's talking about calling
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Elgin Baylor, right? Or like my dad's Connie Hawkins. That
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: was his dude that nobody saw, but he could go
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: on and on about. And so when my dad is
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: telling me how good Connie Hawkins is, I'm like, wow,
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: what do you know now? If somebody comes up telling
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: you how good Connie Hawkins is, somebody got to get
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: up and tell you how he ain't Giannis. Right. Oh,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: y'all ain't supposed to be talking to each other like that.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: So then it creates an emboldened sort of situation where
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: anything I think Michael Jordan's the greatest basketball player of
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: all time. But you know me. You've known me for
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: nearly 20 years. You can tell people this. I'm not
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: some giant Michael Jordan fan.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Right. Right.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: In fact, you and I were big, big, big LeBron guys. Huge.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Like turn of the decade and stuff like that.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: But the idea is if I think that Michael Jordan
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: is the best player of all time, that means I
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: must be a Michael Jordan stan because all they've known
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: is stan work. So they can't, if you think LeBron
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: is the greatest player, it's like you're required to then be, like,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: I think that's the most interesting part is that if
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: you think, if someone is your favorite player, you're required
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: to say they're great. Like we used to have guys
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: like Rod Strickland. You love Rod Strickland, but Rod Strickland,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: and that didn't mean Rod Strickland was Magic Johnson, right?
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Or if you think the guy's great, it has to
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: be because you're a fan. Like there can't be any
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: separation of the two.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: And I think you and Merrill had a great conversation
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: last week, a couple of weeks ago with the term mid. Right. Yes.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: How mid used to be perfectly acceptable. Yeah. Really good.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Not great.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Sometimes great. But it's OK. Didn't have to be the best.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Didn't have to be the worst. Whereas now, whenever you
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: have any conversation, any argument, any discussion about something, about
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: a team, a player, what have you. It has to
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: be either he's the best and I love him and
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: I'm a super fan or he's the worst and he's
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: not this. You can't have those LeBron conversations and admit
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: how great Jordan was or admit or say how great
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: LeBron is. It has to be choose your side. It
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: has to be all or nothing. There's no middle ground
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: when it comes to these conversations. A lot of that
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: has to do, obviously, with social media and in part,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: like you mentioned, some of the Stan culture. Yep.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: So choose your fighter. Now, when we come back, we
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: will talk about the player mired more in Stan world,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: mired in Stan world and beset on all, beseeched on
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: all sides by Stan. Tell you who that is coming
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: up next. All right. Back with Shannon Penn. We are
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: talking about the rise of Stan culture in the course
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: of the last 25 years. And so All right, LeBron. Chad,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I think we can be honest about where we were.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: I think we've grown. I think we've evolved. But, you know,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: we used to be Kobe haters.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: We can admit that.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we can admit that. Yeah, we used to be
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Kobe haters. And by the way, don't blame me. Blame Kobe.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Rest in peace. Like, he made it tough. He made it.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: If you weren't a Lakers fan, even if you were,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: He didn't make it that easy in the early portion
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Full context for me on why I used to say
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: in jest about the whole Kobe hater thing. Because for me,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: it was comparing two players at that time when Kobe's
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: coming up. And I actually wrote a paper about this
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: my freshman year of college. It was about Kobe and
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Iverson and comparing and contrasting the two. And me having
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: grown up in Hampton, so very much the Iverson stand,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: if you want to call it that. and comparing how
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: he got down when he came into the league to
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: how Kobe early on got down before he got older
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: and kind of changed some of those things. But to
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: your point, Kobe early on did make it hard for
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: us to be fans. Yeah, yeah.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: And, you know, he didn't really know how to talk
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: to people.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: That part.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Like, if you read Jeff Pearlman's book, Three Ring Circus,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: about the three Pete Lakers, it is an interesting window into, like,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: where Kobe was and how he got and everything else. Um,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: as things changed, he grew. Um, and I think my
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: ability to understand, I think the other part I talked
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: about this when Kobe died was Kobe's one year ahead
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: of me in school. Like that was the first time
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: that there had been an athlete to pay attention to
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: that was actually my age, but athletes always seem so
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: much older. So I was like holding him to the
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: standard of an adult. Without recognizing that he was, in fact,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: a child, because I don't think I actually recognize myself
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: that I was a child, you know, and, you know,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: and all the things that they came with it. But
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: what I realized after Kobe passed and where I say
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: that he is like be set on all sides by
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: stands and why he becomes such an interesting person in
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: the stand culture. As you said, he was on the
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: other side of Allen Iverson. They came into the NBA
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: at the same time and were exact opposite people. The
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: league certainly would have preferred that Kobe Bryant be the
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: face of the NBA. The face of the NBA that
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: they got was Allen Iverson. That's why every time somebody
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: gets in these, who's the face of the NBA? You
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: don't get to decide who it's going to be.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: For better. And it's not always positive. It's not always
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: to sell. But for better or worse, when you thought
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: about the NBA, you thought about that little motherfucker right there. Iverson.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: And it was a lot of people didn't like about
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: the NBA. And then what a lot of us loved
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: about the NBA. But he was that guy. Kobe's on
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: the wrong side of that. Kobe was on the wrong
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: side of Shaq. Shaq was on his own team. Kobe,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: because he was doing such a Michael Jordan impression, he
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: was like Aaron Hall or R. Kelly to Charlie Wilson. Right. Like,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: like he was, you know, like what if Charlie Wilson
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: was Michael Jackson? And then Aaron Hall was like, he's
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: like shine. Right.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: He was one of these many guys, but he was
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: so good at it that she was like, yo.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: It kind of looks like it.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: It's kind of the same thing. But then if you
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: were a real Jordan person, you're like, nah, I ain't
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: here for that.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: So he's on the other side of that one. Then
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: LeBron comes around. And he ends up being on the
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: other side of that. And then as LeBron became the
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: man that's on the other side of Jordan, the Jordan
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: stands then embraced Kobe as he became the true caretaker
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: of the legacy. And now they become the LeBron haters.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: But for NBA stand culture, patient zero is not really
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Michael Jordan. Because the way that we talked about Jordan
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: at the time, Jordan was, the other thing was Jordan
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: was so big that there was no opposing force.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Right? Like, it wasn't like, I hate Magic Johnson because
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: I love Michael Jordan. I hate Charles Barkley because of that.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: There was no guy that became the other guy. If
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: you hated Karl Malone, it was just because it was
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: the right thing to do.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Shout out Wimby.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, baby.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: Man whip yo with me a shot with me a
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: shaolin monk with me out here trying to get carl
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: malone out the paint when we be talking crazy to
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: rudy gobert yo man like i'm i'm i may stand
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: for that young man.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Right and i and i think it's interesting when you
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: when you bring up lebron in this the factor when
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: we talk about kobe as well because lebron early on
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: embraced kind of the media side of this, let people
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: into his world, you know, his style of play, more passing,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: want to get more people involved. Whereas that wasn't Kobe's,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: that wasn't his thing and really didn't become his thing
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: really for the majority of his career. his time in
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: the NBA until he became an older statesman, really that
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: 08 Olympic run kind of changed that perception of him.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: So you make a great point. So when LeBron's coming up,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: for me at that time, I'm looking at it like, well,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: why couldn't Kobe have done this as well? I think
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: there's several factors, one of which I think I think
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: LeBron coming up with social media and having that... And
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Kobe was a big star as well, but it wasn't
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: to the level that LeBron was when he was in
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: high school. So LeBron kind of had more of that
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: media training already coming up to say, hey, this is
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: how I'm going to get down. So it was... Fair
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: or unfair, me at the time comparing, hey, if LeBron's
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: able to do this, why didn't Kobe at that time
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: growing up? So then it becomes sort of the resentment
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: of like, I know this is your personality, but you
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: could have easily led us into this world. But that's
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: not how it got down.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: And I think another thing that happened with Kobe is.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: If you were a Kobe, Kobe Stan, you had cause
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: to become ultimately successful. emboldened or entrenched by something that
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: I think made Kobe's career more interesting than any other
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: player I can think of and this isn't how basketball
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: works there ain't a lot of people that have up
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: down up again and that did happen right like those
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: three years after Shaq left you could talk about that
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: 35 point game season all you want or whatever but
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: it would come on, man. It was, it was not,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: it was not good times over there and over there
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: in Kobe world. It was, it was, it was, it
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: was not what was cracking. It was not a win.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: And so if you were a Kobe fan, y'all went
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: through something. And that's before we started talking about what
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: happened in Colorado, right? Right. Kobe's, if you are a
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Kobe fan, forget about staying, you went through it with him.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Like that's the reason why Lakers fans feel different about
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: him than they do any of those other guys. Like
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: I look at my friends, The friends I'm closest with
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: are the ones that I went through something with, right,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: where we had to push through whatever it is. And
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: for Lakers fans, because they used to go to the
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: playoffs every year they had, they had that year they
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: didn't make the playoffs and they lost in the first round.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: That felt like they was in the desert. They made
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: it until they got back to the Oasis. And so
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: he then becomes the man with the super stands.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Right. And the super stands were defensive because the time
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: in which you had that Lakers decline, the end of
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: the Kobe Shaq time, obviously Colorado, the post Shaq time
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: coincides with LeBron coming up. So now it's like, oh, wait,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: wait a minute. For Kobe fans, Kobe stands. It's like, hey,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: our guy is probably the best player in the league,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: sans Tim Duncan, but now you want to get rid
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: of him because you've got now this new quote-unquote face
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: of league in LeBron coming in. So you had a
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: valid case to be made for Kobe stands being very
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: defensive at that time, say 2005 to 2008, 2009, with
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Kobe in the league. You know who else that sounds like?
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Nas stands.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Right? Nas came out with the heat. They went through
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: some things with Nas, man. Nostradamus happened, brother. You know
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying? It's not like Nas went all the
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: way to the bottom, but when Jay hit Nas with TakeOver,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Nas was wobbly. He got back up and he made
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: it there. Nas stands have always felt like he has
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: been beset on all sides and not gotten enough credit.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: And then Jay-Z, of all people, pops up and somehow
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: becomes the guy. When you had that happen, because we
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: know the Nas stand is a particular species, but the
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Nas stand and the Kobe stand, ain't nobody dug in
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: quite the same way. Like, look, the Iverson stand is
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: dug in. But it don't feel the way it does
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: with the Kobe State. Because they're not really trying to...
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: The Irish, they ain't really trying to talk to you
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: about basketball. They just want to talk about love. Like Tupac,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: you can say somebody a better rapper than Tupac.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: it means something else.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying? It's funny how you make
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: that comparison because I think there are parallels there between
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: a Tupac and an Iverson legacy and how we discussed
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: the two. I think that's a very accurate comparison. And
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: I think, too, back to Nas, I think what hurt
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Nas is if Nas would have came out, say, four
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: years earlier, his run of greatness would have been longer
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: because he had 94 Illmatic and then he had it
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: was written in 96, but then guess what happens in
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: the late 90s? The rise of the South, And then
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: you had the bling, the money era where that, so
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: we're not trying to really listen for you, you know,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: talking to us and all these big words and these
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: fast lyrics. It's like, nah, we just want to have
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: fun and show me your 20 inch rims. So I think,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: so I think with, if you make the comparison with
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Nas and Kobe, kind of that, that, that bling era
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: is kind of what LeBron was to, to Kobe's reign
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: as the best player in the NBA.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, I forgot. Kobe also had the, okay, I guess
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I got to fit in kind of thing. Remember when
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: he got that butterfly thing?
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Tattoo oh that's what that was?
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Yo I didn't even see the butterfly until much later
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: it's a crown and it got a butterfly on top
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: by the way the Nas it's so interesting that I
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: would make a Nas Kobe comparison in that way considering
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: that song that Nas made that time you remember that song?
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Y'all remember that one?
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Which one? Is this Nostradamus as well? Because I'm going
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: to tell you right now, I never listened to that album.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: No, no, no. It is on Streets Disciple. And I
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: can say this because this is really what happened, okay?
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: We had got the street version. You know, Nas is
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: good for a wild-ass provocative title.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: And so... He did this song where he chastised Kobe
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: for snitching on Shaq in Colorado. It just had this
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: verse just trashing Kobe. It was so incredibly personal. And
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: on Streets Disciple, the title was These Are Our Heroes.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: On the original version going around, it was called, and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I quote, Coon Picnic. Wow. Wow.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: Can you imagine if somebody made a song about you?
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Called Koon Picnic. And by the way, I don't recall
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: there being any picnic theme in the song. I don't
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: know where the picnic part came up.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Yes. I don't know if Nas want me to compare
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: them to Cobes.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: No, he might not appreciate that. But so then you had,
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: like I mentioned, you had for the Kobe stans, you
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: had the rise of LeBron, which was essentially like with
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Nas and the rise of Jay-Z there where it's like, hey,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: wait a minute. This dude is doing a lot of
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: the same things I was already doing. Why aren't you
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: appreciating the things that I was doing? But he's doing
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: it differently. So then it's a form of being defensive.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: So then it's like, okay, well now we got to
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: go all the way the other way and start knocking
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: this guy because he's not our guy. And why is
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: everybody loving this guy when you should be loving our guy?
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Right. And I feel like LeBron in Stan world is
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: in an interesting place. because he is beset by now
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: the Kobe stand, right? Who got a whole new life.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: And the whole new life of the Kobe stand starts
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: when he wins those next two championships, which is at
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: the dawn of social media. And when LeBron is at
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: his absolute bottom, 2010 and 2011, right? That's where he
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: is at his bottom.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: Kobe has.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: affirmed himself right Kobe has made himself legendary in an
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: unassailable way by getting the fourth and fifth championships okay
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: he winds up there LeBron then has runs of basketball
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: that are as good as anybody that we have ever
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: seen he also goes through something and LeBron to me
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: is the first NBA superstar on this level to truly
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: not be associated with teams Right? And he moved around
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: so much that you went with LeBron to wherever he went.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: So many of the Kobe stands, most of the Kobe
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: stands are actual Lakers fans. LeBron stands are from everywhere.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: They like Al Qaeda. They sleeper cells. You never know.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: You never know who might blow the building up. When
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: a LeBron fan, like, yo, we in Omaha. I think
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: we safe.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: Are you sure?
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Are you positive?
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Apparently, this is the LeBron stands in Dallas, but that's
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: for a conversation for another day.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: They're everywhere. And so he has got built up and
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: now then they're taking on Jordan stands.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Because that becomes a thing because LeBron for the last
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: nine years has been so insistent, not simply on believing
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: that he is the best player in the NBA, but
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: needing us to do it, too. Right. And it's off putting.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: It's all those things.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: But it is a reflection of the time. And there
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: are so many accounts on Twitter, for example, that are
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: in the business of either telling you LeBron is the
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: greatest or telling you that he's not. Like these shitpost
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: accounts that are just fully wedged in because all social
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: media is the divisiveness that sells.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Figure out what the hot take is to throw out there. Right.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Even if you ain't got a hot take, somebody go
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: make one. and then throw it out there and then
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: make a thing so that everybody can go at each other.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: And LeBron has been the centerpiece of a culture like
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: that on television and online for like 15 years. Right.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: question I ask you. Post LeBron, does anybody really engender
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: or become truly part of that same, what I would
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: call stand culture? So for example, Steph Curry absolutely is
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: that level of superstar. And I would say Steph Curry
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: has stands, right? But I find them often to be
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: annoying and dorky, but they're not, they're not like, it's
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: not the same culture around standing for Steph that there
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: is around standing for LeBron, I don't feel like.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Right. And a lot of the Steph stans too are
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: for us. below six foot, just being honest. So us
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: who couldn't dunk, he's known as the jump shooter. So
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: that's like, oh, we can identify for us who our
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: biggest achievement was clapping boards. So you got this dude
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: out here who can shoot. I was like, hey, wait
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: a minute, I can do that. So a lot of
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: that has to do with Steph as compared to some
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: of these other guys. And the light skin, green eye
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: thing didn't hurt either.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: There's that. But I really stopped and thought about it,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: at least with the NBA. We are seeing or we
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: learned after the trade that there is a world of
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Luka stans. And boy, they are still mad, by the way,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: still mad. By the way, Luka did the thing that
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: proves that Niko is right and is going to get
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Niko fired. Luka was never going to be doing all
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: this exercise and getting in shape as long as he
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: was in Dallas. The only way it was going to
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: happen is if he went somewhere else. And now, Luka,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: have you seen that men's health? Man, look, Luca looked
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: like a person we didn't know was possible. Everybody that
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: was like, what you mean Luca's lazy? This is exactly
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: what that motherfucker was talking about.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: In Luka's defense, right, he was only as lazy as
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: the Mavericks allowed him to be, though. Just think about it.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: If you're Luka and I'm All-NBA, what, five times, I
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: get to the team to the Western Conference Finals. Then
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: the following year, I get him to the NBA Finals
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: playing this lazy, if you want to call it that,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: no defense, not really in great shape. But it's worked
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: for me so far, so why should I have to change?
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I know, and that's why the only way that they
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: could shame him into it Was that? That was the
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: only way that.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: It was going to work.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Because otherwise, he's like, look, man, it's kind of how
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: when I flunked out of graduate school. I ain't never
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: had to study before. What are you talking about? Now
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: you're telling me I got to study all night? I
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: don't even know how to do that.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Are you kidding me?
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: This is right. Like, it's like, why would I change?
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: It's worked the whole way. And they changed. Basically had
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: to flunk him out of Dallas for him to understand.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: But my last thing, though, I do wonder, though, because
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: obviously it's kind of the PR thing. I guess one thing,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: if you just get in shape, it's another thing. You
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: get in shape and then you have this piece of
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: men's health as well. I do wonder how much of
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: this is just PR because Luke was up for that
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: big deal.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: He's going to.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Get his money, but I wonder how much of this is, hey,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: I'm leaving no doubt that I want all my money.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: So let me go ahead and do this in a
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: big public way.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Hey, brother, we've said this before on this show. We've
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: seen the career of Shaquille O'Neal. Brother, we know. It's
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: one year. It's one year. You remember when Albert Haynes
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: was on the franchise tag two years in a row
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: and he looked like Reggie White? Right. You remember that? Hey, man,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: if Luca was really about this life, he'd have been
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: about this life.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: But it hit me. Brian hit me with this, and
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: he's right. There is one person left out here who
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: got them stands. Kaelin Clark.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. And this level of stand-up is different. Like,
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: we've never seen this in this league with an athlete
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: like this. Like, I think everyone as a whole, the public,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: we're trying to digest this in real time because we
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: haven't seen this. Like, if it was a LeBron conversation post,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: you know, LeBron, Lakers, Luka, look, we know that. We
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: can identify that. We can read that. That's the Mike Linebacker.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: We can read that right away. This Kaitlin Clark WNBA
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: debate is something totally different that we're trying to understand
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: this as we go.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: And you know what it gets us back to? Identity.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Bingo. It is a.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: Look, she is an incredible watch, right? Like, she is
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: a very good player, has not played very well this year,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: but she is an incredible watch. And because of the
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: racial dynamics of the situation... The stand-up that exists that
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: pushes for her then creates a stand-up for somebody like
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Angel Reese, for example, because Kayla Clark, they not like us.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: They not like us. They not like us.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Angel Reese gets hell from the Caitlin Clark stands because
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: she not like us. She not like us. She not
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: like us. Then you have a rush of people in
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: large part who defend Angel Reese and have wrapped their
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: arms around her because they seen this movie before and
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: they know that a young black person in that place
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: needs a measure of love from all the people around her.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: And that creates its own stand culture.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: And then.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: On the identity front walks in the most fascinating case
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: we have ever seen page beckers who has this entire
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: fan base that has come around because of her stepmama
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: yeah absolutely she she has provided a measure of identity
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: and ability to relate as a white girl named page
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: right now granted Not your standard white girl name, Paige.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: But still, as your white girl name, Paige, there is
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: an identity level, not quite of stand-up in her direction,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: but it is like anti-standing, like the anti-Kaitlyn Clark standing.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: I can tell you how many people I see who
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: will be like, oh, no, Paige, she's the one that's
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: who y'all think that other one is, because they don't
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: even be wanting to say Kaitlyn Clark name half the time.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: it is like that the world of Stan hit the
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: WNBA it's hard for and I think this is what
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: happened I'm curious what you think because our attention is
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: so divided and there's so many people so many things
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: to look at here there everywhere right It's hard to
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: get a person who develops a really big stand base
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: in the NBA right now because there's so many options
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: all over the place, right? But the WNBA didn't have
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: that many big stars, and so you had the emergence
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: of Kaitlyn Clark.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Boom.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Stand world shows up there, and you have standing that
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: comes as a result off of that. But I could
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: be wrong. I don't know the Asia Wilson stands.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Do you? I think— Not really, because I think it's
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: just understood that we understand how great Asia is. So
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: you don't need that level of stand-up with her because
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: there's no one on the other side to say that
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: she's not great. Because we've seen her do it at
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: every level. And she's already got a spot in the
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Hall of Fame. Already. if she stopped playing today. So
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: we never got that other side when it comes to
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: the Asia Wilson detractors because she's widely understood like, yo,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: she's the baddest player in the league, you know, even
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: though Nafisa probably winning MVP this year. So we got that.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: And I do think it's going to be interesting because
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I think we all know the, the, the Caitlin injuries
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: and how that's been playing out the last three years.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: But to your point, the page dynamic now, when it
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: comes up now, it's like, Hey, For all you Caitlyn stans, hey,
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Paige is out here doing a lot of similar things.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: She might not have the long three-pointers, but her game
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: is just as cold, and in some cases cold, a
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: better passer, less turnovers. And Paige, and here's the interesting thing,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Paige was supposed to be that one prior to the
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: knee injuries. Paige was that one five years ago. Paige
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: and Caitlyn came out the same year, so the injuries, 2020. Like,
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Paige has been... Page was going to be that one
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: that we've known for over five, six years now. So
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: it's interesting moving forward how that page dynamic changes. And
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: like you said, those Angel Reese stands are probably going
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: to start wrapping their arms around that page, that page
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Becker's now.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Hey, and tell me this, when is standing going to
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: create the Clark Becker's true civil war amongst they people?
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? Like at some point, The
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Caucasian Caitlyn Clark stans, and I'm going to be honest,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: I ain't met a black Caitlyn Clark fan, let alone
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: stan yet. Well, actually, no. Every black Caitlyn Clark fan
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: I know is a man. Okay. I'm not here to explain.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: I'm just here to tell you, I'm just here to
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: tell you what's going on.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Hey, don't ask me, baby. I'm just telling you what
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm selling
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: to you just like I get it. Right. That, that
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: I have seen, but at some point, if Paige Becker's
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: really take off, then the Caitlin Clark stands. Cause you know,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: you see who Paige be kicking it with, you know
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying? You see her, General, get down. She
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: out here. Jason Williams living halfway. You know what I'm saying?
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Hey, man, that Stan world is going to turn into
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: something else. But that's that's the epicenter of our Stan
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: world at this point.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: And that's it. And that's the thing for those Caitlin Stans. Like, yeah,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: you could be a fan of her. But why aren't
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: you a fan of Paige at the same level? You
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: got a white girl from the Midwest, you know, great
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: college career, player of the year, national championship, played at UConn,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: very identifiable. You see her on social media doing all
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: the TikTok dances, her and AZ Fudd. Been doing them
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: for years. My daughter's favorite player right now. and Paige Beckers,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: so why not Paige? What is it about Paige's get
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: down that you don't identify with? What is it to
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: get down? And I think it has everything to do with,
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: being honest, what a stepmother and how she was raised.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Well, there's that too, right? I mean, you just talked
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: about her girlfriend. I don't think that– I don't think–
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: the idea that Kayla Clark is straight presenting is not
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's a small part in this right
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: but you know Paige Beckers and Chet Holmgren used to
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: know each other you know growing up in Minnesota I
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: guarantee you somewhere it's a tape of them freestyling right
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: somebody got a video of them trying to rap right
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: it's got to be there.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: My question with that rap, though, they use a ninja?
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: They substitute a ninja in these lyrics?
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm about to say.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, no, no.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: Paige is it. Paige is it. Paige is the one
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: that had to put Chet up all game and let
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: him know that that was not going to be appropriate
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: behavior in that house.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: That's not how we get down, my brother.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Chet came in there and did that at that house,
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: and then you heard it on the door. Oh, hey, Ms. Beckers. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Let me talk to you, young man. She come in
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: there and start sounding like Claire Hospital. Sit your lanky
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: ass down and let me talk to you, boy. Let
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: me tell you what this is. Man, I got to say,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: I think that this has been a fulfilling, worthwhile conversation
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: on stand culture in the last 25 years. We got
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: them back almost a full century historically, brought it into
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: modern times.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: We did that. I just want to say this public
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: service announcement for you stans out there, all right? Hey,
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: we get it. We're all fans. We love sports. But
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: calm that stuff down.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: You don't got to beat.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: You don't got to go that far. Hey, it's cool
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: to say you wasn't really feeling the Cowboy Carter album.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: It's cool. It ain't the end of the world. You
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: can say that. I hope I can say it. Let
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: me whisper it. It's cool. It's cool to say that. Like,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: it's cool to acknowledge that there are other great players
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: or other great athletes in these leagues. Like, it's cool.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean your person
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: is not that great themselves. That just means there's more
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: than one.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: It's cool.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: This ain't Highlander, baby. There can be more than one.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: All right? By the way, I just want to point out,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: in line with what you just said, I'm going to
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: just say this real quick. 15 years ago, wasn't everybody
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: a Beyonce stan? It didn't. It didn't have to be
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: even 10 years ago. It wasn't always like this, right?
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: I'm seeing people that I know used to be actual
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: real live Beyonce haters have completely switched up because there
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: wasn't no room for that. The game is to be
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: like how everybody became a Swifty.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: You know, like it all, the Beyonce shift, now part
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: of it, I firmly believe is she put out a
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: lot of heat.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: That helps.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: But it wasn't always like this.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: Them crowds didn't always look like this.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: No, they did not. But I tell you this, boy,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: I tried to, you know, that Cowboy Carter, I'm not
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: going to use the word, but, you know, it's not
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: her best record. Nah, there wasn't a whole lot of
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: room to have that discussion. In front of people.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: And look, I'm not even.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: That.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Hive is crazy. That's something different, too. That hive is different.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: That hive, that beehive, that's super sane levels of stand-up.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: You got your regular stand-up, and then you got those.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you right now. The most absurd
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: stand-base that I have ever dealt with in my time,
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: no question, Aaliyah. Hmm. I once simply made the point
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: that I did not love Aaliyah as much as other people.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: I don't even think I said overrated, though I may have. Right.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: But this is maybe 15, not 15. I was living
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: in Miami. So this is like 12, 13 years ago.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: But it was just kind of like, you know, she's
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: not my favorite.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: And I think with that.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: I looked up. Somebody had posted pictures of my apartment.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: and doxxed my mother.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. It ain't that serious, folks.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: Yo!
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: It ain't never that serious.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: Yo!
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: It ain't never that serious. Like, it's cool. You can
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: have more than one. Like, it's cool. We can be
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: critical and have our points. That doesn't mean we hate
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: the person or hate the crowd.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: And even if we did hate the person, we ain't
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: talking about you. Right.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: That's the thing, Stan. We're not talking about you, all right? Like,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: come on.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: What a time. Shannon Penn, check him out. Freddie, is
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: it Freddie and Harry or Harry and Freddie?
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Freddie and Harry.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Alphabetical order.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Freddie and Harry, because having a Harry and Freddie would
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: be kind of weird on radio.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: Wow, that is a, you know what you put it
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: in those terms. You got it. Freddie and Harry, check
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: them out. Afternoons, ESPN Radio. My brother, I appreciate you.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, sir. Absolutely.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: All right. Now, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: joining us here on The Right Time. We do this
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: three times a week. Remember, check out our series, The
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Top 25 Athletes of the Last 25 Years. Ryan Brumley
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: handling everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir. Remember, follow
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: the right time. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: inclined to believe you are a hater. We'll talk to
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.