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Imposter Syndrome Symptoms: Why High Achievers Feel Like Frauds (with Dawn Ibbetson) · Moving Minds Forward

• 0:11
  Gary Johannes: Hello, and welcome to Moving Minds Forward. Remember, people aren't broken. And whatever they carry in, there's always a way forward. That's true whether it's anxiety or grief or any kind of self doubt that never quite switches off. And it's true for today's topic.
• 0:33
  I'm Gary Johannes, solution focused hypnotherapist, founder of Inspired to Change, and the host of Moving Minds Forward. One condition per episode. What's going on? What's keeping it going? And what's actually happening?
• 0:49
  And what actually helps? Let's get into it. So imposter syndrome. This one's a little different because I'm not doing it alone. I'm joined again by Dawn Ibbetson, solution focused hypnotherapist with Inspired to Change based in our Chelmsford clinic.
• 1:11
  If you caught the burnout episode, you'll already know Dawn. The twenty years running IT teams across time zones and the burnout that nearly cost her everything. What we didn't get into properly that day was what was sitting underneath it for years before it became burnout. That's what we're talking about today. So this isn't me explaining imposter syndrome to you from a script.
• 1:42
  This is a conversation with someone who's lived it, not just studied it. The feeling of being one conversation away from being found out even while she was running teams all over the world. If you've ever sat in a room where you were qualified to be in and quietly wait for someone to realize you shouldn't be, stay with me. I think you'll find this useful. Let's get into it.
• 2:11
  Welcome, Dawn, to another episode of Moving Minds Forward, and it's so lovely to have you back on and for you to share your experience of not just the burnout, what we did before, but now the imposter syndrome that went with everything behind that. So what I'd like to ask you first of all is what do you understand as imposter syndrome to be for you?
• 2:38
  Dawn Ibbetson: So imposter syndrome is kind of... Well, it's the self doubt. Self doubt of your intellect, self doubt of your skills, your accomplishments. It could be in a work context or life or both. You know that having that self doubt and anxiety there as well despite even any kind of objective evidence or anything else.
• 3:02
  It... It's internalizing those feelings as well.
• 3:06
  Gary Johannes: Yeah. Okay. So when did you first notice that you were feeling that you might be found out, if we wanna call it that? You know? Or did you have a name for it, or was it just a feeling you always carried?
• 3:20
  Dawn Ibbetson: Oh, it was a feeling that then grew. It was a feeling that was just there kind of in the background to start with, and then it grew and grew. I didn't have a name for it. I didn't know that's what I was experiencing at all. So...
• 3:33
  Yeah. And and in the beginning, he could almost kind of ignore some of it. It's almost like that internal voice that the majority of us have, not obviously, not all of us, but, and it came up that those feelings were feeling like a fraud, feeling like I'm gonna be caught out or found out. Found out of what and caught with what?
• 3:51
  Gary Johannes: Yeah.
• 3:51
  Dawn Ibbetson: I I don't know now. It's irrational now, but at the time, that that was the feeling that I had.
• 3:59
  Gary Johannes: So in a previous podcast we did about burnout, you said you was very good at wearing a mask that people would never know. What about with this imposter syndrome? How did you... Did you wear a mask, and how? What did it cost you?
• 4:18
  Dawn Ibbetson: Yeah, that mask was there all the time. So I would, I'd kind of painted a picture of myself that I had to be perfect in ways, in quotes, know, that if I was then this perfect person in all areas then that's when I wouldn't get found out. So that mask went up, that wall went up so I would have to make sure that I looked a certain way, that I looked presentable so people wouldn't realize that I was feeling those feelings of stress and you know, it's that analogy, that lovely analogy that I do like to use, I was the swan. From the surface, everything looked smooth and everything was all calm and we were gliding along underneath the surface. I was a mess and I was panicking.
• 5:02
  But that led to overworking. I would get to work super early before anybody else so that I could see what was going on and if again, if I'd been found out. And then I wouldn't take lunch breaks because again I'd need to be and again I say study, it wasn't study but it was trying to catch up. Yeah. But then I wasn't efficient because in the back of my mind everything was swirling and going around so I wasn't actually being more efficient so it did take me longer to complete any work.
• 5:32
  So I did have to kind of then stay longer and not have lunch breaks, and it was a vicious circle.
• 5:37
  Gary Johannes: So what was you afraid of if you were using that term of being caught out, found out? What was what was it you was afraid of?
• 5:49
  Dawn Ibbetson: Well, it... And it is an irrational thing, and I realize that now. I was afraid of being found out that I wasn't doing a good enough job, that I couldn't actually do what I was then being paid in a job to do, that I was no good as well. And again, they're all, you know, I wouldn't been given the jobs that I had been and being put into those positions if I wasn't able to do them.
• 6:14
  Gary Johannes: You talked about overwork, and you worked hard. You kept the mask on. You was always at your desk. How much of that overwork was about the imposter syndrome and keeping the mask on to show that you belong there, And how much was it about... Or what was it what fed into you then burning out, which you talked about in an earlier episode?
• 6:38
  Dawn Ibbetson: So I think it it started out definitely as that imposter syndrome of needing to prove. And there is an element of proving that I was the best and proving that was good and that I was validating for myself that I should be there. But that then over time then again, because with that imposter syndrome, because you're constantly trying to validate yourself and prove yourself, that's when you are then becoming really inefficient. So then I would overwork and then that then did lead to that burnout. So I think it definitely started as the imposter syndrome and then moved into burnout.
• 7:18
  Gary Johannes: Yeah, and the two went hand in hand.
• 7:20
  Dawn Ibbetson: Yeah, they went hand in hand.
• 7:21
  Gary Johannes: So I'm gonna be a little bit political now, which I don't... I try and keep off the podcast, but you worked in a very male dominated world, which is IT and global head of IT at that point. How much was that imposter syndrome driven by you being, quote, feminine and having feminine energy in a man's world?
• 7:49
  Dawn Ibbetson: Was it
• 7:50
  Gary Johannes: also driven? Because I deal with a lot of men who have imposter syndrome. It's not a sexual orientation. You've gotta be this or you've gotta be that, but does that also lead in that sometimes you do?
• 8:04
  Dawn Ibbetson: Yes. So interestingly, when you talk about that, when you look at the definition of imposter syndrome and all what that is, and I don't need to go into that, you can look it up, but it was actually defined and it's meant to affect more women. But I do agree with you. I see it a lot in men as well. I think anyone can experience imposter syndrome and I think in the way life is now more so than ever because we are on social media, we're a lot more visible.
• 8:30
  Think that there's more prevalence of imposter syndrome because of that. But from my perspective, in terms of yeah, in that very male dominated arena, absolutely. And it was almost like a proof of I would have to, I would almost have to shout louder than other people in boardrooms, in meetings to actually show and prove that I did know what I was talking about, I did know what I was doing to be heard. And I guess maybe part of it did start there in that you have to prove it. And you're right, I've always been, I've always looked different and even in the corporate world that was no different.
• 9:13
  I was always, I had sort of you know different colored hair and I'd always have that kind of feminine look of you know, I like that kind of fifties kind of style of dress. That was always kind of there. So yeah, I was well known as well and that also probably played into that
• 9:30
  Gary Johannes: Yeah.
• 9:30
  Dawn Ibbetson: No. That I look a certain way. I also have to prove myself in a certain way so that it it all started to
• 9:36
  Gary Johannes: then So you don't get defined by what you look like. You get defined about your capability of what you can do in that role. Yeah. But you had to keep proving that role because you didn't wanna be judged.
• 9:48
  Dawn Ibbetson: Yes.
• 9:50
  Gary Johannes: And... But then some of it was you judging yourself because that inner voice was going, but what if? What if? What
• 9:56
  Dawn Ibbetson: You're not good enough. You need to prove you're good enough.
• 9:59
  Gary Johannes: So you left Corporate World
• 10:03
  Dawn Ibbetson: Mhmm.
• 10:03
  Gary Johannes: And retrained as a solution focused clinical hypnotherapist. And part of that learning and part of what we do with all of our clients is show them how the brain works.
• 10:17
  Dawn Ibbetson: Mhmm.
• 10:18
  Gary Johannes: Once you understood how your brain worked and saw it from the other side of the fence as it were as the therapist rather than the person suffering, how did that change things for you?
• 10:31
  Dawn Ibbetson: Oh, do you know what? The amount of light bulb moments I had when I was then training, when we would then cover certain aspects, that is when I realized that what I was experiencing was the likes of imposter syndrome and then burnout. But as soon as I then started to find out then how the brain worked and what it was doing, it was effectively my brain trying to protect itself by almost kind of saying the worst case scenario and that catastrophizing to save me even, and again, save me from an imaginary beast and danger. And I realize, and I know that now, and it is kind of almost self fulfilling, a vicious cycle. The more then you start creating that, you're creating anxiety.
• 11:16
  And then that's when, as we talk about it in terms of that, the solution focused stuff that we then do in terms of the brain, we know that that is your primitive brain, that your amygdala taking over, your survival mode, taking over to try and save you when it can't possibly save you because it isn't a real danger.
• 11:37
  Gary Johannes: I mean, from a personal, I'm really, really pleased you crossed the floor and become a sluice and focus at the therapist because in my opinion, you're one of the best I've ever met. So Thank you. It's like... It's great. But having that lived experience gives you, you might say, an upper hand.
• 11:54
  It's not necessarily an upper hand. Mhmm. Though we wouldn't want anybody to go through those experiences, but because you have, you can understand where people are. So with that understanding, if someone was listening right now, they was in it. They're deep in it, you know, still making one thing, you know, what would you wanna say to them?
• 12:18
  What would you what would you say to you when you was in the middle of that? What would you say?
• 12:26
  Dawn Ibbetson: See, instinctively, I would then say, put down the laptop and take a break, but that's a very big thing. For someone who's in the middle of that, that's very unlikely to happen. So I would say to anyone who is experiencing any of that, that there is a way out. There is hope. You can get through it and it is actually a little, you do have to work at it but it is a little bit easier than you think it's gonna be.
• 12:54
  You don't have to stay in this place, you don't have to be there forever. And also from my perspective in how I then help people, we don't have to go over any of this. This is purely looking at, let's start looking at solutions of how you do want to feel. And we just take one tiny step forward. Whatever then that looks like to the individual is one tiny step.
• 13:17
  And over time, guess what? We keep taking tiny steps.
• 13:21
  Gary Johannes: There's an advert I've seen on television where I think... I don't even know what confectionery it's for. But there's a guy who's working in an open plan office, and he decides to take a break. And as he walks out of the room, everything sticks to him. Notice balls, stickers, and
• 13:41
  Dawn Ibbetson: Yep.
• 13:41
  Gary Johannes: And, you know, and he's sort of, like, overwhelmed, and he sits down and has a break. Yeah.
• 13:47
  Dawn Ibbetson: Yeah. I know. Yeah. I know what you mean.
• 13:49
  Gary Johannes: That that might... You're saying that's that's quite a big step. They make it into a big step. They're showing it, but you need a break. So...
• 13:58
  But what that shows, which they probably didn't mean to show because they were just selling chocolate. No. But it mean... For me, it's taken an action.
• 14:09
  Dawn Ibbetson: Yes.
• 14:09
  Gary Johannes: So I've never worked ahead of a big corporate team like you have, and I certainly haven't lived that experience you lived. But what smaller thing, smaller action could you take which might just start building on thing. One small action, one bit of advice you'd give to someone.
• 14:32
  Dawn Ibbetson: Oh, and you know what? This is something that I do when I talk to corporates about this, which I do.
• 14:37
  Gary Johannes: Yes. I mean
• 14:38
  Dawn Ibbetson: we then discuss and we talk about.
• 14:39
  Gary Johannes: Are you open for bookings?
• 14:41
  Dawn Ibbetson: I am absolutely open for bookings. Yes.
• 14:43
  Gary Johannes: Okay.
• 14:44
  Dawn Ibbetson: Whether it's imposter syndrome, burnout, or, you know, other things.
• 14:48
  Gary Johannes: How to get the best out of yourself.
• 14:50
  Dawn Ibbetson: Absolutely. So a small step for me in that kind of situation would be, or a small action would be getting up from the desk. Getting up from the desk, walking away. Even if it's for two minutes, get up, walk around the office, come back, sit down, go to the kitchen, get a drink. It's a tiny action because what it does, it resets your brain, it resets where you're not in that quagmire of everything going on.
• 15:22
  You're actually breaking the pattern is what you're doing, but it breaks that. So yeah, so a tiny step. Chatting to someone who might be sitting opposite you if you're in an open plan office, then not only have you got a little action there, you've got a little bit of interaction and as we know that all of those things having interaction and thoughts that are all positive really help with this. But that's one really small thing that you can then do.
• 15:47
  Gary Johannes: So last question for you. What does an ordinary day look like, an ordinary working day look like for you now compared to five years ago, ten years ago, whenever you was
• 16:02
  Dawn Ibbetson: Well, I I think the most important difference for me is that I set very strong boundaries in terms of my own self care and how I am working. And I still work really hard, that ethic is never gonna go from me. I'm still there and I will still sometimes I do put in the hours. However, around that I will have some in the mornings, I will have a little bit more of a relaxed morning. Now I know I'm privileged in the type of job that I do, in the role that I do, I can do that and I can build that into my diary.
• 16:34
  But I will sit there and I will have a cup of tea and I won't do anything, I'll just enjoy that cup of tea. So it's very different in terms of then managing my stress levels as well.
• 16:47
  Gary Johannes: Yeah. So one, you set boundaries and two, you enjoy your personal time. You find outlets for, you know, notice things you enjoy rather than focusing on what might go wrong even though you've got control over it. Yep.
• 17:02
  Dawn Ibbetson: No. We we don't... I don't look at what might go wrong because I also know now even if it did go wrong, it's probably never gonna be as bad as I think. So
• 17:10
  Gary Johannes: Yeah. Absolutely. It never will be. Listen, Don. Thank you so much for sharing with us your personal take on in that imposter syndrome, which so many of us suffer at all levels, you know, whether you're at school, whether you're just starting a new job, or whether you're being promoted and you go, oh, I'm gonna get caught out.
• 17:30
  It sometimes happens to all of us. So thank you for sharing your perspective of it and your lived experience. And remember, you know, Dawn is available through the Inspire to Change Network. You can always find her, whether that's to see her for your own issues or burnout or any problems you might have or to get Dawn to come and do a presentation about how to be the best version of you for you and your team. So thank you very much, Dawn, and Thank you.
• 18:00
  I'll see you soon.
• 18:01
  Dawn Ibbetson: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'll see you soon. Have a good day, everyone.
• 18:05
  Gary Johannes: Bye bye. Dawn, thank you, and for going even further into everything than last time. If anything in that conversation sounded familiar, here's what I want you to take from it. Imposter syndrome isn't evidence that you are fraud. It's a brain that's learned to treat being seen as a threat and aim that threat response at the wrong target.
• 18:33
  Somewhere between a quarter and a third of high achievers deal with this, and ninety four percent of them have never said it out loud. So if this is you, you're not the exception. You're just one of the many who hasn't spoken about it yet. But here's the other thing that Dawn made clear. Doubt doesn't mean the evidence is wrong.
• 18:58
  It means the part of your brain that could hold onto the evidence gets shouted down in the moment by the part that's convinced you're in danger. And a brain that's learned to do that can learn to do something different. If you take one thing from today, take this. The next time you achieve something and your first instinct is to explain it away, stop and write it down instead. One line, what you did and what it took, you're giving the rational part of your brain something solid to work with instead of letting the doubt fill the silence by default.
• 19:48
  So let me speak to you directly. If this is you, you're not appalled. You're not getting away with it. And the same brain that's learned to doubt you at every promotion can learn something different. That's not me being kind.
• 20:07
  That's neuroscience. Understanding what's going on is where it starts. You've just done that. If you found this useful, hit subscribe wherever you're listening. There's a lot more to come.
• 20:21
  One condition per episode. What's going on? What's keeping it going? And what actually helps? And if you'd like to find out whether Inspire to Change can help you with imposter syndrome or any other condition, we have a nationwide network of solution focused hypnotherapists across The UK, including Dawn in Chelmsford.
• 20:44
  You can find your nearest therapist, read more about how we work, and book a free initial consultation at inspiredtochange.biz. The link will be in the description below. See you on the next one.