Latest / Beheaded / Pugachev the Great | Yemelyan Pugachev

Transcript

Pugachev the Great | Yemelyan Pugachev · Beheaded

0:04
SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to season five, episode 11.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm Megan Moore.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: I went up on my name.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Megan Moore.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: Megan Moore.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: It's not me.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: So Do I go down?
0:19
SPEAKER_01: I say I'm Megan Moore.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: But I went, I'm Megan Moore.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: I went like one.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: You inflected the bit different.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: It just felt weird.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Which one?
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Should we do it again?
0:31
SPEAKER_01: The first one?
0:32
SPEAKER_01: The second one?
0:33
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know now.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: No, it's too late.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: We've come too far.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: So so last time we took way too long recording.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: This time, I like just freaking saw you.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: We're doing so good.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: We just we just recorded and now we're doing it again.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: I see what you're saying.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like we took so long last time we had a big gap.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: We had like a I try we try to record every two weeks.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: But we missed a week because of my illness and my was in the infirmary of my home.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: Decrepitness.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: Disgusting and sick and gross.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm still kind of sounding in my face.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, you gave it to me.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Did I?
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: I hate that we're taking turns.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: We just keep passing it back and forth.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Keep taking turns.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we should quarantine from each other.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it is, but every time we get together, one of us just starts sneezing and it's just it's infuriating.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Like I was fine when I got here.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: Totally fine.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: You're blaming me?
1:27
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm like wheezing right now.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what from me?
1:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm allergic to you.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: It's probably my house you're allergic to.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: Why is your house so dusty?
1:35
SPEAKER_01: I dust it every week, at least, if not more.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: None of us dust every week.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: It's I do.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: I actually really like dusting.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Ugh, dusting's gross.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: No, when you get the little Swiffer.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have the Swiffer.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: It's fun.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: I like to vacuum my baseboards.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Do you do that?
1:51
SPEAKER_00: Like I get the attachment and I vacuum them.
1:54
unknown: No?
1:54
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean I will.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Satisfied.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: I do it like I do that maybe like once every couple months.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: But I prefer that to like dusting.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Because dusting just like kicks up a bunch of filth in my air.
2:07
unknown: I don't know what you're talking about.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's her problem.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: I swear we're not constantly sick.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: This is insane.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Like sick people.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: It's the plague.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're all just dying slowly, man.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: But you're running a lot.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: I am.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: I've been running.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm still training for my next marathon.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Good for you.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh my next one's gonna be in Idaho Memorial Weekend.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: This is gonna be terrible.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: This last episode was a pseudo-finish.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Now it's clearly settled into my chest, and now I'm trying to.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't sick at all.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it is.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, it's fine.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: It's a terrible allergy season.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: I hate the spring.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: You know this.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm training for a marathon.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's going okay.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: I fractured my toe last year.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I said this.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: No, you never shared.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: I never shared.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: I didn't share on your behalf.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't my thing to share.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, I fractured my toe last year and uh now I'm recovering from the fracture.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: I feel good in that regard, but but my breath is struggling this spring with all the allergies.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm okay.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm fine.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel great.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel bad.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like no, I know I really don't.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean my my marathon training is I'm doing okay.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, I haven't been in the gym in officially two weeks now because I've been trying covety, like no, not covety.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to heal, you know.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: I understand.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be at the gym hacking on people.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants to hear us being sick.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: I apologize.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: What a terrible way to start our episode again.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm so sorry.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm training for Marathon.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: You had visitors in town and it was an exciting visit.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about that.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, no.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: They were there as my brother-in-law and his wife, who What is she to you?
3:56
SPEAKER_01: She's my sister-in-law.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: So he's your brother-in-law because he's your husband's brother.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: He's my Jake's brother.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: But what is she?
4:02
SPEAKER_01: And then his wife.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: My sister-in-law.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: That's what you call her?
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Is that you don't call her that?
4:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't call her sister-in-law.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: Come over here.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: Come with her, sister-in-law.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you know what I mean.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know how like when you're married.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I call her my sister-in-law.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I guess that makes sense.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: But what's funny is with her is we we have known each other since we were 11 years old.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Is she a listener?
4:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so, but I'm gonna find out if I talk about it now.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh no, we've known each other since the first time I met her.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: We had sixth grade language arts together with Mrs.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Anderson.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: Language arts.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: And it was our first period of middle school.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when like you're nervous and it's like your first day of your first class where we had like the periods, and you know, you had like different classes and a bell schedule.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: And we were in language arts together, and we were kind of in the same circle of friends.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: But it just weirdly how things worked out, she ended up meeting, like we went to middle school, high school, college together.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: She went to college?
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh, she didn't go to my college, but we knew each other through college.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I see.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: Like we had the same group of friends.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: And then she met my husband's brother.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: Like separately from you meeting Jake.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I mean, it kind of she kind of met him through us, but yeah.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: It just was a weird world of coincidences, and then they got married.
5:25
SPEAKER_01: So now they're married.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, all that said, long story short.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: They live happily ever after.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, they got a kid and they're they've been together for gosh.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: Jake and I have been together for 16 years.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: That's insane to me.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Because you're not like an old person.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: A child.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: So it's funny when you say that because I'm like, feels weird.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Like 16 years ago.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: I know.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: Because I was in high school.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: I was a senior in high school and I was 18 when we started dating.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: And he was this hot older 23-year-old college boy.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't think bad to hear this.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: He had a motorcycle.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: Mmm.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: Anyways.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: And that's why kids do not marry your high school sweetheart.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: We ended up we we were together for we were together.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't know the math.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, they were they've been together almost as long as we've been together.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Really?
6:20
SPEAKER_01: Because that's a long time.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: I think they started dating like four years after us.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: She's your same age.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: And he's Jake's age.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: He's a little bit older.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: He's Jake's older brother.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't know the dynamic.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: And fun fact, he was a knight at Medieval Times for like seven years.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: I actually think we've talked about him before on the podcast.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's maybe where you've heard of him before.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was the knight.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, they came to Arizona and we had a fun time.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: But what was really cool, and I'm mad because they invited us, but we it just didn't work out.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: They um they went up north a few hours to Lake Havasu.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: So like three hours, three and a half hours north of Phoenix is Lake Havasoo.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like a big spring break lake party area.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't know why.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, the original London Bridge is there, which is so crazy.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: I remember when you told me that in London, like we were there looking at London Bridge, and Megan was like, Oh yeah, you know, the original London Bridge is in Arizona.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: I was like, You thought I was messing with it?
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Literally go, like, fuck you, Megan.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, no, it is.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: And I just let you go with it because I wanted you to Google it to be like, oh.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: I made so much fun of Megan, like, oh, they wouldn't put it in Boston or New York or Arizona.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like a significant city.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, they put it in like Bofo nowhere, like Arizona Southwest.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, when I and I've known that for a while because I've seen it before when I was a teenager, I went up there.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And I saw it.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: And I was on um, I did the Horrible Histories Thames River tour, which is kind of like a fun before you and I went when I went the first time.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: And they asked the the crowd, they the group on the boat, they were like, who knows where the original London Bridge is?
8:10
SPEAKER_01: And I was made up, I was like, Arizona.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Whoa, no one knows that.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Where are you from?
8:15
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Arizona! He's like, Oh, that makes sense.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so and it's cute because they sent photos.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: I'll have to make a little video and show it.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: I know it's not like execution related, but just because we're obsessed with London, that's cool.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: But they kind of made it into like a little mini London, so there's the phone booths, and they have the British flags all on the bridge, and you know how in London they have that weird dragon statue, like the city of London has that little dragon figure.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: No, I don't remember that.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, anyways, they have that around.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, basically the the yes.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, really quick question.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: You're raising your hand.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know that that they made it a little London town area.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: What's what's the river called that goes through it?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Because it's not the Thames, right?
9:03
SPEAKER_00: Is it like Havasu?
9:04
SPEAKER_01: Is it Lake Havasoo River?
9:06
SPEAKER_01: I think so, because it connects Lake Havasu to like the main city.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I only asked because in Arizona, all of our rivers are named something weird and western and old.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Like there's literally stuff called like dead man wash.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, they're very like native words.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: Bloody coyote, I think is one.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Like there's those are names of rivers here.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: So it'd be funny.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: There is there's a dead, there's a dead horse wash.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, where I where my townhouse is, my rental property, it's over dead manwash.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: Or there's another one called Dead Horse something.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: No, we always laugh whenever you Dead Horse in bed.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: When you get to like the outskirts of Phoenix and in Arizona, we always laugh about the names of the random man died here river.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because they're like they're almost like old Native American names that have been translated to English, and they're just something so just basic and graphic and kind of awful.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: It's always something bloody, something died, there's an animal decapitated something.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: You drive around the west, and it's just like, oh my god, a million people died here.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: Gallo swinging.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: It's not pleasant.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: That's funny that like London Bridge is probably over dead manwash.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Probably.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: And the whole thing is just because the original London Bridge was literally falling down, it started sinking.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: So of course they put it up for sale, and some guy in Arizona bought it.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Put it up here.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: We should research that a bit more.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: Like who bought it, why he bought it.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: His name was Something Murdoch.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: No way.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: It's a Murdoch.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: That's famous.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Oh, now you're backtracking.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: We'll we will research.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: It was in the 1960s.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's very recent.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it wasn't that long ago.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: We should do, like, okay, we've talked about this before, but like to our listeners, we're just gonna put it out there.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: I think it'd be fun if you and I did like spin London.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: We've done that.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, we will go to London again.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: But what if it would be fun if we did kind of like stuff like that, like old West specific things, like ghost towns or like these old rivers, like old historic sites in Arizona, because we forget that we're cool in a cool place in like the country and in the world.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not exciting, but it's the old west, and people are interested in that.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: I feel like if we did a little spin-off of Beheaded, we're talking about it.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: I'll support you for that.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: No, we both do it.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: We both just like kind of go to like some old ghost towns and we kind of learn the history.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be big, maybe not a podcast, but like little social media stuff, and we kind of go to these little gold mines.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: You're looking at me looking crazy.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: I think that'd be really fun.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: I would love to go to Bisbee with you.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: I want to go to Tombstone, yeah, exactly.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: See?
11:51
SPEAKER_00: All right, maybe tombstone, Bisbee, Jerome, like these old cities, and kind of just give you a little bit of Western history.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: And I bet a lot of it ties to like just not as cool as British history.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: It's not as cool, but it's still cool to people.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: It's gotta work with what we've got.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: And it's cool to people that are not from here.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: All right, think about it.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Think about it.
12:10
unknown: Okay.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna drink my wine, you continue your spiel.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: That's all I have.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: The only other thing I have, because we've met so recently and I have no stories or trips to tell you about, is my dog.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: My lovely little doggy.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: He keeps getting attacked by spotted owls.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh god, see, another Arizona problem.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: This is the Arizona problem.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: In England, I don't think they have that problem.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: I know.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: My my boyfriend was out walking around.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: And he came back and he was like, yo, like dogs or dogs, owls just swooped on the dog.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: I was like, what do you mean owls swooped?
12:43
SPEAKER_00: He's like, there's two owls, and they sit in these tall trees, and at night they literally swoop down on smaller dogs.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: And our dog's not that small, but like, like, he's got this fluffy tail.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: So he's a little squirrel-like, but he's he's probably what 25?
12:59
SPEAKER_00: 25 pounds, and we call it his luscious tail because he's got a swoopy little furry, bushy tail.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: So we're like, maybe they think he's like a squirrel, and they see his little luscious tail and they swoop down.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: And he's had all these run-ins with owls where they literally swoop and they like claw his back.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: Like they haven't heaven hurt him, thank god.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: He's not her, he's not bleeding, like nothing happens.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: But they swoop on him, and every time he like freaks out and he barks, and we've tried to hold him, we've tried to walk him, we've tried to go off-leash, we've tried all these things.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: So it's really popular here in Arizona because hawks are such a big deal and eagles are such a big deal for little dogs.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Wait, with the spikes?
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they make these little harnesses for dogs that have spikes all on them.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: You look kind of like um, you look like gothic that or like in Mario Go-Kart, the little tortoises that had the spikes on them.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: Kind of like that.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: Like the little Koopa or like uh desk shell thing.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: We gotta do something because it's happened a few times now, and like we've kind of just let it happen so he understands nature.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: You are harsh.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: We're not harsh.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: We just like we want survival of the fittest.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: We're not hurting him, and we just kind of want him to be aware.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: We what we think is when we talk to neighbors about this, we think it's like a mama owl and a baby owl, and the mama owl is teaching the baby to swoop.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: So it's like with your dog, yeah.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Our dog's like target.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Kind of wouldn't stand a chance.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I know.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how small because 25 pounds isn't.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because my dog's 13, she would die.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, just word to the wise in Arizona like watch your dogs around spotted owls.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: But he's fine, we're fine.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: It's just a thing, thing we've got to be worried about.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: We just talked for 15 minutes about a bridge in Arizona.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: And my dog.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: My dog deserves all the time.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: He does, he's adorable.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: All dogs are.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, okay, but we have to get into our gentleman of the evening.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: And for a twist, Megan is gonna tackle early life because.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we practice this.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: Yemulian Pugachev.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: Pugachev, we can remember.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna say his first name again.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: I'll try it one more time.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: Yemulian.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: Pugachev.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: I think that sounds right.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Pugachev is a pretty popular.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, you may have heard of him.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: And I I don't want to reference it too much.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: But I know we have a lot of listeners who also love historical fiction shows and movies.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: So I am a huge fan of The Great with Elle Fanning and Nicholas Holt on Hulu.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: This is not a paid sponsored ad, but um I I I'm not gonna reference it too much because honestly, I was almost shocked after learning the real story of Pugachev and then what The Great did with it.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, The Great is a comedy and they take their own creative liberties, and his storyline is so vastly different from what actually happened.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: However, he is a prominent figure in Russian history, and yeah, and he's worth a he's worth a good conversation.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: So Pugachev was born in 1742, and he was the son of a small landowner in what was called the Cossacks, specifically Don Cossack.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna say this term Cossack a lot.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: If you're very wise and you already know, then good for you.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: But if not, I had to look it up a lot.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: The Cossacks is pretty much a it's a territory of Russia, it's a southern eastern part of Russia, almost like borderline Asia, right?
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of their characteristics were almost samurai-ish and very heavily Asian influenced, but very Eastern European.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: And so that's where he grew up.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: And from an early age, he was very interested in the Russian military.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: He joined when he was 17.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, and he starts his life off pretty quickly.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: By 18, he's already married.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know about you, but they mentioned his wife, and then we never heard of her again.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: That's what's always funny about some of these stories, is when they're like, and then they were married and had kids, and then they go off on all these great adventures, and you're like, whatever happened to the wife and kids?
17:36
SPEAKER_00: Did you just like forget about them?
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Are they part of the story?
17:40
SPEAKER_00: They he did marry.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: Her name was Sophia.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Sofia.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna say her last name.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: Ned Yuzeva.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: This is where we need our Russian friend Elena.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: Elena photography, where are you?
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Um together they had five children, except two of them died early on in in young infancy.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: But again, never hear about them again.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: So out of sight, out of mind.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: He joins the Russian Second Army in Prussia, and it is during the Seven Years' War, which is a combination of multiple countries fought in the Seven Years' War.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: Russia was supporting Great Britain at the time, during the Seven Years' War.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: Fun fact.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: And in 1762, so this is really like right before the American Revolution, 1762, he returns home to the Cossacks.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: And by this point, even though he's pretty young, he's got to be in what his early 20s.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: He's like 20 years old.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's already getting known for his really pristine military skills.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: He gets a fairly high ranking.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: If we were to compare this to what we know as military ranks, he was equivalent to about a company commander or or a lieutenant, I heard in some articles.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Like he was almost at a lieutenant level.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: But he get he started getting more of a pristine Cossack ranking.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: 1770, he's still in the military.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: So we're about eight years later, he's still doing his thing.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: He's kind of separating half of his time with in the little home village that he lives in and then participating in the military and in any wars that Russia's participating in at the time.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, there is a siege during the Russo-Turkish war.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: Wasn't very familiar with that, but this is where he kind of starts getting this reputation of falsely impersonating somebody, which is kind of a weird, like I feel like we all kind of had that have that friend who exaggerates a lot.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And everything that they say, you're just like, oh yeah.
19:39
SPEAKER_01: And oh yeah, you know, I'm related to this person and that person, and I do this.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, okay, cool.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they go a little too far with their stories.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: This is where he kind of starts this pattern, and he starts waving around a sword during the siege, and he starts screaming out how this sword was given to me by my godfather, Peter the Great.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Peter the First, the Tsar of Russia.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, wait, what?
20:05
SPEAKER_01: He's a peasant, and they're just like, okay, you're having fun playing pretend with your sword in the middle of a war.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's kind of where things first start with him.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, this same year in 1770, he requests to get a medical discharge.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: He says for whatever reason he's sick and he's ill, and he's kind of losing his dedication to the Russian military.
20:31
SPEAKER_02: Right.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: He goes as far as asking for a permanent discharge.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: He just wants to be done with it, and it's not approved.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: He has to um, you know, he's fighting to just leave and go home, and they're saying, Well, you can stay here in our local Russian infirmary, and he's like, No, I want to go back to the Cossacks.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So this is where um he starts losing his faith as being such a again, a dedicated Russian military man.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: He's starting to lose faith in the organization.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: And so, like Megan said, he's refusing to go to his actual military infirmary, and instead, he's like, you know what, there's a better solution.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: So he and he goes and joins a very dissatisfied Cossack group who already had fled the army, and they're essentially going back to this independent cosmic community on the Tarek River nearby.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: So he claims that his brother-in-law convinced him to do this.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: His brother-in-law, his name is Simon Pavlov, which is funny.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: Like Pavlov's dog.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: That didn't connect for me at first.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: Was Pavlov Russian?
21:34
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: Pavlov, I believe, is a Russian name.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're connected.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he has very good convincing skills because of his Pavlov's dog theory.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Maybe he just lied and said that he was really good to Pavlov.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: Perhaps.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: He could I honestly he's a great pretender already.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: He could have just been like, oh yeah, Pavlov, that guy.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: My brother in law.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: So, so according to um to uh Puka.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: He's saying that his brother-in-law is the one that convinced him to kind of desert the army.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: So he goes all the way back home.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: But as soon as he gets back home, apparently his brother-in-law Simon implicated him and said, Hey, he's a deserter.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: So while he's fleeing, apparently he gets abducted by authorities.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: And they don't they don't take just him, but they take all these other deserters.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: And they essentially like hold him up for about not that long, 48 hours.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Easy.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: And what does he do?
22:31
SPEAKER_00: He escapes.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Good.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: So he's held up for a very short amount of time, but he escapes.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: And then he decides, you know what, this is the beginning of a career as a fugitive.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: So he goes on the run after that.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Like he doesn't go back to the army.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: He kind of just acknowledges this fate as a deserter.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: And the first thing he thinks to do is to go to that community on the Tarek River, that Causet community, and he officially joins them because he thinks, this is where I'm going to find my identity.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: This is where I make the most sense.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: And he does that in January 1772.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: What about his wife?
23:06
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: Five his three to five children.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: Three to five children.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: This is where I started to question that myself because I was like, wait, I thought you were kind of splitting your time between your hometown and these military assignments.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: Now you just full-fledged, like, go to this other area where the Cossacks are, and like that's where you establish camp.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: We never we never got that far.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: We never hear about his wife and kids again.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Just spoiler alert.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: You can even Google it and it's like nothing.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he's around 30 at this time.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: So again, he's 30 years old, fled the army, now goes to this Cossack community.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: And when he gets there, he he gets he becomes very politically charged.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: So the first thing he does is he joins this like protest group.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: And from what I understand, this protest group is just like a group of people that want to just air their grievances to the crown.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: And they just want to be like, hey, these are all the issues we have being being Cossacks, like in this area.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Here's all of our problems.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And he's actually elected an official representative of this group.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Good for him.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: So he's like a professional complainer and they just send him where they will.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: I deal with those at work all the time.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: Professional complainers.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: And also that's a bad thing.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: Like everyone has the right to protest.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: But it's just funny that instead of choosing to be at home with wife and kids, he now decides to just like join this company and be a professional complainer, which is what he does.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: So he's sent on this journey to St.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Petersburg to launch an official complaint.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: But as soon as he's kind of on the road to St.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Petersburg, the authorities find out it's him.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: They recognize him as a fugitive, and he's discovered again, and they're like, wait, we know you.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: You're a deserter.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: We know we know that you're here to officially complain.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: So they we've heard your story.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: We've heard your story.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: So they arrest him again.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: So this is arrest number two.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: Two?
24:54
SPEAKER_00: Two already?
24:55
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, so second arrest already.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: Somehow during his investigation, he's like now tricked the officials into releasing him.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what that means.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's all we read.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: He tricked the officials.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: We don't know how, we don't know what he said, we don't know why.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: But he fled.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: I have theories, but I'm not allowed to talk about them.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't know.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: Controversy.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, but then he the next thing he thinks to do is actually flee to the Polish border settlement of Vedka.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: And he uses the help of this, like, this uh group of people that belong to the Russian church, these Russian church members, and they kind of help him figure out like his living situation there.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: But he's not far into this um living situation when he decides to return to Russia.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: So he at fall of 7072, the same year, he decides to pretend to be of the old belief.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: And when we say like old believer, old belief, that means you are a strict Russian Orthodox member.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: So it's before the reforms took place, it's before the church split into different um factions, and like the old believers are the ones that claim that they are like true to the original beliefs, kind of similar to the Catholic faith, too, where you have all these different branches kind of break off from Catholicism, but you have this like the few that are like, no, I'm Roman Catholic, like this is what I believe, and it's like old school.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: And I picture in like the long beard and the tall hats and the long black robe-like dresses.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: I think that's like yeah, typically.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: That's the orthodox Russia traditional old believer.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: So he like kind of claims asylum back into Russia, says, no, no, no, I only want to go back to Russia because I'm an old believer.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm an old believer.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: So here he is again kind of impersonating someone.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: Like his first impersonation was, oh, I am a grandson or godson of Peter I.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: And now he's saying, Oh, I'm actually this old believer who wants to just come back into Russian territory.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: But he's absolutely understanding how he can create his own narrative to get what he wants.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think he is a skilled trickster in that way.
27:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: So at this time, when he finally does get back into Russia under this guise of being an old believer, he starts hearing whispers of a um, I hope I don't say this wrong, but a Yaic Cossack rebellion.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Did I say it right?
27:25
SPEAKER_00: I yeah.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: And so he he wants to now join them and kind of be a part of their rebellion because he's at this point, again, a deserter, he's fled, he's been arrested multiple times.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: He really sympathizes with the rebellion.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: So he tests the waters first when he goes to this like group of people.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: First, he poses again, because he's a trickster.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: He first poses as this wealthy merchant, and he goes to them and he says, I want to lead these group this group of people into a mass exodus to Turkey.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: And once people start like saying, Oh my gosh, yes, we will follow you, we believe in you, he understands the amount of influence that he has with this group.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: And that's his first test to see can I inspire these people to actually lead a greater cause to um lead a rebellion?
28:15
SPEAKER_00: So he gets arrested again.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: Hi, his arrest record is awesome.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: This is funny.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Once, yeah, once they find out that it's him again.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Hi.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's you.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: It's you again.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, he he's arrested for about five months um at uh Kazan.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: And what does he do?
28:39
SPEAKER_00: He escapes again.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's kind of crazy.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: As many people have we've we've covered with like arrest and escape.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: I would say he's probably escaped some of the most times.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Like Ann Askew was arrested and escaped at one point, yeah.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: One time.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: And then this is the third arrest.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: Third, yeah.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: And the third escape with that.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: I want to know how he was escaping.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: It was like an escape and then a lie that led to a release and then another escape.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: So somehow he's doing a lot of stories.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: He's wearing a lot of different hats here.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, so he after he's uh imprisoned and then escapes, he returns right back to the revolt and says, All right, I've already posed this wealthy merchant, I know I have a following, now I'm gonna go back and try something a little bit stronger.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: So he goes back to the same people, and now he's really big with the propaganda and the recruitment for his cause.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: And what he's doing is he's promising a better life for Cossacks.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: So he's saying, Hey, not only will I not only restore the old belief, the old Russian like religion, he's like, now I'm actually Peter III.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm Peter III, who you thought was overthrown and potentially murdered by Catherine the Great.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm Peter III, and I'm here to give you a future of no taxes.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm here to give you a future of, you know, no serfdom.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm here to make sure all the Cossacks and all the peasants and all the serfs have this greater quality of life.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: So he's just on this huge now pedestal of like, I'm gonna change the world and you all need to follow me.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: All right, so I'm gonna take it back just a second here because let's talk about what is going on in Russia at this time.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: Peter III, he is the grandson of Peter the Great, Peter I.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: And just I I want to kind of go into a little bit of a background about Peter, just so we can kind of understand where Pugachev is who who he's even trying to be.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: So, so Peter the Great, he um obviously grew up in in nobility, his father was Peter the Second.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: He marries Sophia, who changes her name to Catherine, which I never knew that.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: I never knew that Catherine the Great, her name was Sophia, growing up.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: Growing up.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: And they were not known for have having a happy marriage.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: Let's just be upfront about that.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: They I think I would go as far as saying that they actually hated each other.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: Probably.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, she she called Peter, these are some phrases she used to describe her husband, an idiot, a drunkard, and having to deal with a child husband.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: I kind of feel for her.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Child husband.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: Yo, you're my child husband.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: Get the fuck away.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: But she wasn't incorrect.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: Peter III had this terrible reputation of being childlike.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: He really was kind of a doofus.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I love the show The Great, because they really play up on that.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: Where he has, he's like this boy who has way too much power.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: He does like to drink and party and have affairs, and he can get any woman that he wants because he's powerful and he's Peter the Third.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: But he has no idea how to really use his power.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't use it for good.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: He thinks everything is just dispensable and really doesn't see value in a lot of things.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: For example, like there might be a bear performing for the court, and for him, the fun part, of course, is like, let's kill the bear.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, yeah.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: It's just for him, he's just like this this boy who likes violence and toys and weapons.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: And he actually, people found it disturbing.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: He he played with toys up until he was at least 17.
32:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: And he would even go to bed and ask his servants to bring him his teddy bear.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, they didn't have like teddy bears, but you know, yeah, his dolls and his toys.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: And he was at the same age, Pugachev was already fighting in the military at at 17.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: So he he just had this really weird, this like oddly innocent but not innocent, like kind of like when you see this child just destroy things and you're like, mm-hmm.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: We've we've covered other royals like him before.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know if you remember when we were doing our um Young Queen's episode with uh Leah Redmond Chang.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and it was like you you saw, I forget what his name was, Prince Philip.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Not Philip.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna I don't want to slander his name.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Prince Delavois's husband.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and just like the weird things that they would do, whether it was like a weird power thing where he like ate the head of a turtle.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, like just like you see these like certain people in certain prominent positions of power do weird things.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: And like nowadays you'd be like, oh, like it's a concern, like mentally, like it's like a stunted mental development has happened.
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Like there's something you need to actually they're so sheltered.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: But back then it was like whatever behavior the royals exhibited, you just dealt with everyone just kind of clapped along.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: They're like, Yes, that's funny.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: The bear, you killed the bear.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: Good job.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good job, Peter.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, but Catherine wasn't fooled by it, so that's why I think their relationship is so funny in such a weird way.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: And lopsided.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: It is so lopsided.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: She would really have to put him in his place a lot of times.
34:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: They did actually have two children together.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, one of them being Paul the First.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: But there was all this speculation of Paul was even Peter's child because it was very well known that not only was Peter had a lot of ladies, Catherine was also a pretty um flamboyant woman who really did also like to explore her her sexual side of things and was very curious.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: So she had a lot of lovers, he had a lot of lovers.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: There really was no proof if Paul was theirs together.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: The year now is 1762, and Catherine has really convinced everybody around her that Peter is completely incompetent and doesn't deserve the throne.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: She's gained support from the military, um, so all the armies, all the fleets, and the Senate.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: So basically, the government and the military is now all supporting Catherine.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: And this and I love the story.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: Peter is literally sleeping because I guess he would just like sleep in and be up all night drinking and partying.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, Catherine is just like building an entire army without him realizing it.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: And he figures out what's going on and he tries to flee.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: And he's trying to tell those who are typically all the military and all the fleets who are typically there to protect him.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: They all start turning cannons on him.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Whoa, I'm Peter.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
35:44
SPEAKER_01: And they're like, No, Catherine the Great is who we see as queen.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: She is on the throne, not you.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: We support Catherine, and you gotta like, you're not going anywhere, buddy.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: But he just pointed cannons at him, and so all these cannons are firing off.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: And this is in St.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: Petersburg, Russia, and all the townspeople start coming out to figure out what's going on with all these cannon fires.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, why is there this like little mini battle going on?
36:10
SPEAKER_01: And they realize, oh, Peter's trying to flee, and they themselves get swords and weapons and artillery, and they are like, no, we also support Catherine.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: They're right, you need to go away, Peter.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: Damn, I love that.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: Peter's arrested, and on July 9th, he's forced to abdicate from the throne because Catherine just had that much of an upper hand.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: But she's like, You're like forced him, like you will not be in power anymore.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be mine because you're an idiot.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know it was a forced abdication.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: It was a forced abdication.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: So I I love this story.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: There's sorry, there's so much like weird, quirky stuff about Peter III.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: Peter had this idol, Frederick the Great.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Because they were all the great of something.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: This was just like Alexander the Great, Frederick, Catherine, Peter.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: Frederick was one of his biggest idols, and he truly thought that Frederick loved him too.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: Here's a quote from Frederick.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
37:07
unknown: Yes.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: He, as in Peter, allowed himself to be dethroned like a child being sent to bed.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: That's the perfect image.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: Where and that's how the great portrays it too.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: She's like, Peter, go to bed.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: Like you're done.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: Go get your toys and go to your room.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: You're done playing games, you know.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: Oh God.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: So, anyways, that that's that's my thing on Peter.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: It's embarrassing.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: This is where it gets weird.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: So on July 9th, he abdicates.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: August 3rd, he dies.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: Done.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: Great question.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, formal records will say it was a c a combination of hemorrhoid, colic, and stroke.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: All at once.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it was the hemorrhoids and the colic and it's like.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, we were doing our research.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: Some of some articles would just say like he died of medical reasons.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: Others were like, he died of assassination.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: Or murder.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: Some say it was directly from Catherine.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: Some say it was her inner circle.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: She had Grigory Orlov was her like right-hand man who helped her get on the throne.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: And they think it was that inner circle of people who just took him out.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: They were just done with him.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: They couldn't risk his flightiness.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: We heard a lot of different accounts, and all of them were slightly different, even if it was, again, like an explanation of assassination or murder.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: It was like, oh, he was in a fight with a prison guard, and then the prison guard had to strangle him.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: Like all these weird, none of them lined up.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: None of them were.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: Nothing makes sense.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: But we know he died.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: We know there was probably some sort of foul play.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: Very suspicious.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: I highly doubt it was just of disease.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: Conveniently, right?
38:50
SPEAKER_01: When he abdicates.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: What so you think it's do you think Catherine murdered him, or do you think she hired someone?
38:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think she was like again, this is pure speculation.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you weren't there?
39:04
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't there.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: But I'm just saying, like, I I feel like Catherine didn't order it directly.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't think she said, hey, go murder my husband.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: I think she knew of his incompetence.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: She might have suggested to people, like, oh, it would just be great if he wasn't around, or like, you know, or incentivized anybody.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think she might have just kind of like put it out there to see who would who would be loyal, who would catch on, who might do something to show their worth or loyalty to her.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: So I think that is something a lot of monarchs and people in power do.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's necessarily like a direct order, but sometimes I think a lot of people in power just kind of like float out an idea, see who executes the idea, quote unquote.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Like who see who actually sees it through, and then they know who's on their side.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a that situation.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: That's a very plausible situation.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: I think there was a lot on the line.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: I think Catherine understood the gravity of she's protecting Mother Russia.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Mother Russia.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: Um but on that topic, so what was Catherine doing for Russia?
40:10
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm gonna switch it back over to you to get back to Pugachev's rebellion.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: But in in the end, people weren't all a fan of Catherine because she granted the nobles more authority to own their serfs on the land.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: And it was all a political move.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: It was all because she wanted something in exchange for them and it was to satisfy them, and she needed the nobles on her side on a political stance.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: So she's like, fine, take, you know, take control over the serfs.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: And so at this point, to cut into what you said, the serfs had zero say, they had high taxation, they had, they were also dealing with plague and crop issues and natural disasters.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: So they were they were already down on their luck.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: And then Catherine had the audacity to open up this big, like this big conference of sorts of like, I want every person from every group of people to come and say or say, except for the serfs.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: And so she was really anti-serf.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: She, I think when she came onto the throne and people looked to her for leadership, there was a lot of feeling that she doesn't like serfdom and she's going to abolish it.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: And if you've ever watched, you know, Catherine the Great on HBO with Helen Mirin, like that's how they portray her when she started.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, she's gonna be the first one art to be like, you know what, serfdom's wrong, and this is like something we're gonna change.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: But then there's like advisors that come to her and we're like, hey, if we actually do this, the landowners are gonna turn on you.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: This is what's gonna happen economically.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: So she quickly changes her mind.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: So whether or not that's true, right?
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe we want to think in our minds, like, oh, she was gonna actually abolish serfdom, and she wasn't, you know, she wasn't as like cold-hearted as you think.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, maybe she was, who knows?
42:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is an entirely different era.
42:03
SPEAKER_00: They looked at people very differently these days.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: And what's the difference between a serf and like a slave?
42:10
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: We were talking we were discussing this a little bit beforehand.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: We think a slave is tied to their master, right?
42:17
SPEAKER_00: If we think of like awful slavery and the American self, like the slave is owned by their master to work the land.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: Whereas we think serfs are more attached to the land and just come with the land.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: So if like a monarch grants you a piece of property, they're like, here's your property, and here's all the like serfs that are on it.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Do they get paid?
42:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: If they I don't think they get paid much, if at all, and if it like it might be barely to constitute the cost of living.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, it's like it might be no pay like slaves, or it might be barely paid just to like survive.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: If anyone knows more about that, yeah, we would love to know that because we've we've researched it a bit and we heard different takes on what exactly like serfdom is.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, but um, but I think there was a lot of optimism into her gaining power and people thinking, oh, she's gonna be this like great monarch that abolishes serfdom.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: No, in fact, she like supported that, she supported the landowners.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: There was no change in anything with serfdom.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh, I think it was Jake who brought up a good point was he said, like, it's crazy to think of like how much taxes the serfs owed to their land.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: And we actually in modern day society owe more than the serfs.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: I do want to say I Jake almost became like a guest on tonight's show.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as part of whatever.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if he was just interested in the wine and the food I made, but he was like all about um he was very involved in our studying process.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: I loved it.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: No, but he, yeah, he he was like, I think today it's like worse in terms of taxes than the serfs.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe, maybe again, I don't know what they were the wages or how that worked out or what they were entitled to.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, regardless, back to our story.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: The reason why.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh, Pukachev was able to pull off this whole like narrative of he was Peter III who was just like high in hiding after Catherine threw him out and he was overrun.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, the reason why people believed him is because he did bear a strong, strong resemblance to Peter III.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: People said he looked almost exactly like him.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: Who knows what that means in this era?
44:23
SPEAKER_00: I really want to see pictures.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: I know.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: So, like, again, in The Great, it's funny because Nicholas Holt plays Peter III, but then also plays Pugachev.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: They just give him like yellow teeth and more of a beard, and he's just drunk all the time.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: He's just the drunk version of Peter, and that's the only difference between them.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: It's hilarious.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: It's funny, but that that was they put a funny spin on it.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that that was his main case, is like, oh, I look like him.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: And again, in this era when you don't have like newspapers, social media, you have no way to know what people actually look like.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: All you have is maybe some portraits floating around and reprints.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, anyone with dark hair and a beard, I don't know, maybe could look like him.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm not exactly sure how they assess that, but according to historical records, he looked a lot like him.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: And so what Pukachev said was he was like, Oh yes, I'm Peter III, and I escaped from the clutches of Catherine the Great, the evil villain, the evil villain, my wife.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: And his army was so riled up and they were so enamored with his idea of like, again, free freedom from serfdom, like more um rights to the Cossacks, uh, you know, no taxes, like all these ideas that he now just kind of was able to recruit all these people who wanted to overtake the nearby regions.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the regions between the Volga River and the Urals were like completely overrun by Pukachev's army.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Um they even took Kazan, where he had been previously arrested and held in prison.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so they held all these lands.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: They now had Cossacks, peasants, like because they were overtaking these lands, they had arms and artillery, they had that great propaganda, great recruitment tactics.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: So they were a force to be reckoned with.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: So much so that Catherine the Great commissioned General Peter Panin to go out and like bring them down.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: She was like, please just stop this rebellion.
46:19
SPEAKER_01: What is kind of funny is the rebellion also got so far because one, it was part of it was like logistics, they were just like, nah, we can't get to them.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: But the main reason was they just didn't appreciate the the like the size of it.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: They they they're just like, oh, they're just peasants.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: That's how it always is with a peasantry vault.
46:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, it's just they're not gonna what what's really gonna happen?
46:43
SPEAKER_01: And little did they know that their arm their army, quote unquote, and the artillery that they had in their weapons was just as good as the Russian military.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, maybe don't like just let that brush under the rug, maybe get on that.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so they way underestimated uh uh Pukachev's army, and so when they actually like went to to fight them, they were like, Oh my god, we don't have the right amount of transport, we don't have disciplined soldiers, like all these soldiers are underpaid, they barely want to be here themselves, so there's like all this insubordination going around.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: So General Peter Pan Pan Panin, like Peter Pan?
47:17
SPEAKER_00: Peter Pannen, yeah, it's not funny, he completely fails.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: So um August 1774, they decide to send in another general.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: They're like, okay, General uh Mikkelshun, he needs to go and he needs to sortshon, very very Russian.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh they need to sort out the situation.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: So General Mikkelshun goes and he is able to actually have a pretty significant blow to Pukachev's army.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: So at this point, uh he he takes like tens of thousands of rebels like into prisoner custody or he kills them, and it's the first big defeat of the army.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: And once they have that one big defeat, they're just like picked apart by pieces, they're like continually dismantled.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: So finally, like the Cossacks themselves kind of give up Pukachev because they're like, I think he's the one you want, I think he's the reason for this.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna like let him loose because we don't know if he's Peter the Third.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, he talks all these, you know, he he talks about all these great ideals of this free society and what life could be like for us, but like maybe he's not the guy.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and he kind of pissed him off too because uh when he started losing faith and everything, he started to flee.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and like he does, yeah, and that's what he does.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: Whenever, whenever things get sticky, he just escapes, he runs off, and that's when they they realize, like, no, bro, you're with us or you're not with us, and then yeah, they just gave him up.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think once you're a person like that, like a con artist of sorts or a person that wears many faces, like eventually someone else is gonna see that.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: They're gonna see them the duplicitous nature, they're gonna see the multiple sides of you, and they're gonna say, you know, everything I thought you were is actually like a little transparent now.
49:07
SPEAKER_00: Like now I can see the other versions of yourself you're trying to portray.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, clearly his wife, Sophia, God knows really care.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: She's like, I've been saying it all along.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: She's like, the guy's a jerk.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: She's like, Um, I'm sorry.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: I've been sitting here for 15 years waiting for him to come back.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: So uh so finally, again, the Cossacks give him up to the authorities.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: So it is now General Alexander uh Suvoro, if I say that right, who was the one who like actually took him into custody, and the first thing he does is like place him into this metal cage.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: He's like, You will not escape.
49:46
SPEAKER_00: We have you, like you've been arrested so many times, you've escaped so many times.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: That's so that I didn't think you were in a metal cage.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: Like they know his arrest and escape history.
49:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just just cage him up at this point.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: They do torture him to get a confession, and the confession is were you or were you not leading the rebellion and impersonating Peter III?
50:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, and he admits to all of it.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: So um, General Alexander uh Sovoro, sorry again if I say that incorrectly, but he officially sends him to Moscow.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: And what he says is, you're gonna endure this public execution in Bolitnaya Square.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: I know, which I don't know where that is in Moscow, but it we looked up some videos.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: It's a very grand area, it looks like someplace that could hold a large crowd.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: Holds a very large crowd, and the date that they decide for this is January 21st, 1775.
50:46
SPEAKER_00: It's very cold that day.
50:48
SPEAKER_00: I think of it.
50:48
SPEAKER_00: It's January in Moscow.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: That's what he's freezing freezing.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: And like we've talked about this before with some executions where like if it's at the tower or somewhere in London early of the year, like people will wear multiple shirts or try to keep themselves warm to like not show the shivering.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: Like Charles I did that.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: He wanted multiple shirts to not shiver to look like he was nervous.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: Right, because you want to look bold up there.
51:15
SPEAKER_00: But how do you look bold in January in Moscow?
51:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm just surprised a crowd came out.
51:19
SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, I'm gonna be about my fire.
51:21
SPEAKER_01: I know.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: Tell me how it goes.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: Does the head come off or does it not?
51:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: And so his official death sentence was to be this is kind of generous, to be beheaded first and then drawn and quartered because he, in fact, is a traitor.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: It's treasonous.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what his official charge was.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't think we ever read that.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good one.
51:41
SPEAKER_00: But I imagine it's just overall treason.
51:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:44
SPEAKER_01: And and and supposedly that was a special request from Catherine the Great saying, and it wasn't just Pugachev being executed that day.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: There was actually a few other head leader rebels of the re of the rebellion.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: Right.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: Pugachev was the big name though that everybody wanted to see.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
52:01
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, supposedly Catherine put in the request of to make it a little bit more humane to be head first, and then the dismemberment and the quartering and taking, you know, taking the limbs off and everything.
52:13
SPEAKER_01: So generous.
52:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because typically that happens while they're still alive.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: That's a big deal to be head first.
52:18
SPEAKER_00: When we've done like William Wallace and other drawn and quarterings, like we know drawn and quartering is one of the worst things you can do where they like cut off limbs, they disembowel you.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: The worst section.
52:29
SPEAKER_00: They burn their bowel your bowels in front of you.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: Like it's a whole thing.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: The last thing they do is behead you because they want you to be present and aware for all of it.
52:38
SPEAKER_01: Oh, can I say something gross?
52:39
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: I was reading that one book, um, The Executioner of Prague.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:45
SPEAKER_01: And or the memoirs of an execution, whatever.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: But it's about Jan Smidler.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: I've I've mentioned it a few times.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: It's a great book.
52:52
SPEAKER_01: And they they said there there was like this one execution where the person actually died in prison right before the execution happened.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: And they still wanted to make a scene in a spectacle.
53:06
SPEAKER_01: So they would still, they still like paraded the body, the dead body through the town to get to the execution site.
53:13
SPEAKER_01: And people still threw vegetables and stuff at it, even though it was just a dead body.
53:17
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
53:17
SPEAKER_01: And he still went through the entire drawn and quartering process.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: Even though it was just a body.
53:22
SPEAKER_01: And it was just a body, and people were still like kind of cheering, but they were also kind of disappointed, like, oh.
53:27
SPEAKER_01: He's not alive.
53:28
SPEAKER_01: But they still went through the entire process.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: That's weird to do it.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: That's weird.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like, I mean, not that it's any better when they're alive.
53:35
SPEAKER_00: Like, if it were me, I'd want to be dead before.
53:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, obviously, yeah.
53:38
SPEAKER_01: That's great that for him that he was dead.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: It's weird that people should see.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, they still wanted to see it.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: It's honestly weird either way, right?
53:46
SPEAKER_01: It's all weird.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: It's weird.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: It's what attract any of it.
53:49
SPEAKER_00: It's weird if you're alive and you're witnessing it.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: If it's it's weird if you're dead and you're witnessing it.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: It's just weird all around.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: There's no right way to see a drawn and quartering, I think.
54:00
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a valid point, Megan.
54:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's good for you.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't condone any part of it.
54:06
SPEAKER_00: Let me just I don't think there's a right way to really be a viewer of the drawn and the cornering.
54:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, unless it's William Wallace style and you're his dead wife and the audience being like, come home to me.
54:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh, come to heaven with your ghosts.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: Or like you're his friends who are crying and like, oh, we're there for you, buddy.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: I can't even envision this in modern times.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, people who are like, oh, I can't butt get behind like boxing or UFC because it's too graphic and gory.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh.
54:35
SPEAKER_01: You know what they did back then?
54:37
SPEAKER_01: They were like, go for the limbs first.
54:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the heart, heart, heart.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh, one more fun fact.
54:45
SPEAKER_01: This is a rumor, not confirmed.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: Supposedly, Catherine visited Pukachev in his prison cell the night before.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: Because she wanted to confirm for herself it wasn't actually her husband, Peter III.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: Could you imagine if it was?
55:01
SPEAKER_01: If that's true.
55:02
SPEAKER_01: She's like, you fucker.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, surprise.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: I said it was me.
55:09
SPEAKER_01: But I tried to tell you and you weren't listening.
55:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's probably like, you goddamn asshole, she's on.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: No, sorry, excuse me.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, I I and maybe that's a rumor for the um supporters of Catherine to prove, like, if she was behind the quote unquote assassination or murder, then why would she for like think it was him?
55:36
SPEAKER_01: But also if your husband supposedly died of a stroke, like, wasn't there a funeral?
55:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
55:43
SPEAKER_01: Was there a funeral for Peter the Twitter?
55:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, we learned from our documentary this evening there was never an official coronation to make him czar.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he never had a funeral either.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: So maybe they were just kind of like, hey, it was like he reigned for 180 something days.
55:59
SPEAKER_00: So it was like there's no coronation, he only reigned for a bit of time.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they didn't feel a need to make it any kind of big public spectacle.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: But like you don't have any funeral any funeral.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: What?
56:11
SPEAKER_01: Russians, man.
56:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
56:13
SPEAKER_01: I have no explanation for half of this.
56:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: Very, very strange.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: And then, like, this is interesting because it kind of ties into another episode that we have.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: But apparently, Pukachev um it has become a symbol throughout time of like Russian rebellion.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: So, fast forward from this time frame, 150 years, when we have like the Romanovs and the Romanov family and their brutal like murder slash slash execution, he is used very much as a symbol of like Russian freedom and like Cossack independence and all of this throughout time.
56:50
SPEAKER_00: So, even in that Bolshevik era where they overthrow like Imperial Russia, he's still very much like a central figure in their story of like, you know, let's be like Pudkachev and let's make sure that we, you know, don't take any shit from like the Imperial Russian leaders and all that.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: So even though we think of him as maybe kind of a sticky character who changes shape a lot, and we're not really sure where he stands, and maybe he's just doing this to get ahead or to, I don't know, garner some sort of sympathy or loyalty or whatever, he's still used as a symbol throughout time of like let's stand up to the nobility and let's get independence from serfdom and like let's have lower taxes and let's have people of the lower rank kind of have more rights and freedom.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: So perhaps in that way, you know, he at least did something good in his life.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: He they also renamed the city he was born in to like Pugachev?
57:42
SPEAKER_01: Pugachevian land or something.
57:44
SPEAKER_01: There was some I don't have the right name.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: Pugachev land.
57:46
SPEAKER_01: Pugachevian land.
57:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
57:49
SPEAKER_00: Hollowed by Pugachev World on the other side of the coast.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh, so that is the story of Yamelan Pugachev.
57:58
SPEAKER_01: Nice.
57:58
SPEAKER_01: And how he impersonated Peter III.
58:02
SPEAKER_00: We've had two impersonations this year.
58:04
SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking that Perkin and Peter.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: Perkin and Peter.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: Perkin, Warbeck, and Peter.
58:11
SPEAKER_00: That, and we talked about this a little bit on the Perkin episode, but in this era, it's much easier to do, obviously, than now.
58:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, even like in the Anastasia story we told too, it's like you don't have much to say whether you are or are not this specific person who may have mysteriously died.
58:30
SPEAKER_00: So why not kind of take a chance and come forward and say, hey, I'm actually this person that died a while back?
58:36
SPEAKER_00: You may not recognize me because it's been 10 years.
58:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, people buy a lot of stuff.
58:41
SPEAKER_00: I think in this era of like, again, oppression and and famine and disease, like everyone's kind of looking for a miracle.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: Right?
58:50
SPEAKER_01: Everyone wants someone to hold on to.
58:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, everyone's looking for some sort of like second coming, you know, some sort of like savior type thing.
58:58
SPEAKER_00: And when someone steps forward and has the balls to just be like, yo, I'm gonna take care of you all, and we're gonna lead us to independence and tax-free state, you're like, oh my god, thank you.
59:08
SPEAKER_00: I you got you, you know, oh you came, you made it, like we're here.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, yeah, it's and so it's unfortunate to see vulnerable societies, but sometimes people need things to believe in.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they were famished and they were poor and they were serfs and they were starving, and yeah, you know what?
59:25
SPEAKER_01: He's offering out the world free coupons and free deliveries.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: You like Papa John's coupon codes?
59:34
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of, it's like, by the way, I'm really hungry.
59:39
SPEAKER_00: Let's go finish this book.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: By the way, if you want your first free delivery on Instacart.
59:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead and plug that right now.
59:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, go to go to our our Instagram.
59:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh anyways, that was that's why I can't do I can't do affiliate marketing.
59:54
SPEAKER_01: This is just how I anyways.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: Good job.
59:57
SPEAKER_01: Um let's let's end on that note.
59:59
SPEAKER_01: Do you have any final words?
1:00:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, other than the wheezing throughout this episode, no.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_00: We will meet again next time.