Latest / Ridiculous History / CLASSIC: Gregor MacGregor Invented a Country and Convinced People to Invest in It

Transcript

CLASSIC: Gregor MacGregor Invented a Country and Convinced People to Invest in It · Ridiculous History

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, have you ever wanted to start your own country?
0:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, the thought has crossed my mind. I just
0:07
Speaker 2: if for no other reason than to have my face
0:10
Speaker 2: on some currency.
0:13
Speaker 3: What do you, frank, I want to My dream would
0:16
Speaker 3: be able to buy all of the islands in the
0:20
Speaker 3: Pacific Ocean that the United States has basically blown up
0:22
Speaker 3: with nukes.
0:23
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot to unpack. All right, walk us
0:26
Speaker 1: through it. Start with two vlu Make sure you get
0:30
Speaker 1: the vanuatu. Make sure you go through. Are you gonna
0:34
Speaker 1: do Micronesia as a unit or are you gonna move through
0:39
Speaker 1: all the archipelago.
0:41
Speaker 3: We'll figure that out as we go.
0:42
Speaker 1: We'll figure that out as we go. And that is
0:46
Speaker 1: a classic Gregor McGregor real name, that's a that's a
0:52
Speaker 1: classic line from him. Uh Connor McGregor is different from
0:59
Speaker 1: Gregor McGregor, that's right.
1:01
Speaker 2: Also known as His Serene Highness Gregor the first Sovereign
1:05
Speaker 2: Prince of the State of Poiis Poiis and its dependencies,
1:11
Speaker 2: as well as the Psachik of the Poier Nation. This
1:15
Speaker 2: is about the time he visited London and made quite
1:18
Speaker 2: the impression.
1:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, so much so that we made a t shirt
1:24
Speaker 1: specifically for this episode. There's only one problem. When this
1:30
Speaker 1: guy visits London and sells so many people on his ideas,
1:36
Speaker 1: turns out he made up the nation.
1:38
Speaker 2: So let's hear all about Gregor McGregor and that time
1:42
Speaker 2: he invented a country and convinced people to invest in it.
1:48
Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show,
2:15
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Have you ever heard of a barracuda also
2:20
Speaker 1: known as a bilker, a bunco, a hustler, a swindler,
2:23
Speaker 1: a crook, or, perhaps most familiar, a con man. Barracuda
2:29
Speaker 1: I know, isn't that cool? One of those that is
2:32
Speaker 1: a synonym for a con artist. You've never heard this before,
2:35
Speaker 1: Ben Well, neither have I? NOL have you? Super producer
2:40
Speaker 1: Casey Pegram.
2:43
Speaker 3: That is not a use of je I'm familiar with.
2:44
Speaker 1: Let's bring it back. I think we should welcome to
2:47
Speaker 1: the show. This is Ridiculous History, and I've got to say, Noel,
2:51
Speaker 1: you know how sometimes I don't know if this happens
2:54
Speaker 1: to you. Sometimes when I'm doing research, I'll fall into
2:57
Speaker 1: a tangential rabbit hole. Course, so in our time researching
3:03
Speaker 1: this episode, I fell into a rabbit hole of con
3:07
Speaker 1: artist culture and synonyms clearly, and grifters, Oh, we should
3:11
Speaker 1: have said grifter. That's my favorite, and all the different
3:14
Speaker 1: slang terms attributed to this, this subculture, this industry, and
3:19
Speaker 1: today's show does ultimately concern what I have to say
3:24
Speaker 1: is an objectively impressive grift.
3:26
Speaker 4: Yeah, And an objectively impressive grift from an objectively detestable
3:31
Speaker 4: human person.
3:31
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Oh, terrible garbage train of a person, for sure,
3:36
Speaker 1: And often described as an adventurer, which seems like a
3:40
Speaker 1: cool job title, but we'll find, in his case is
3:44
Speaker 1: maybe a little more generous than he deserves. But Noel,
3:47
Speaker 1: could you introduce us to this fellow Gregor McGregor.
3:51
Speaker 4: Gregor McGregor sounds made up the way that you hear
3:54
Speaker 4: his his other name.
3:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, he sort of.
3:57
Speaker 4: He once was a rosy cheeked young lad from the
4:00
Speaker 4: Scottish Highlands. He came from fighting stock, as this fantastic
4:04
Speaker 4: article from History Today by Victor Allen points out. You see,
4:08
Speaker 4: his grandfather was a well known klansman. That's not a
4:13
Speaker 4: kuk kuklusklansman, a klansman in the Scottish tradition whose name
4:18
Speaker 4: in Gaelic was Gregor the Beautiful and he was a
4:22
Speaker 4: member of something called the Black Watch and also kind
4:27
Speaker 4: of became an important figure in a region called Inverdean
4:33
Speaker 4: in Bretelbane, and he became something called a laird, which
4:36
Speaker 4: I imagine to be a lord, right right.
4:40
Speaker 1: And those terms are also not made up. We have
4:45
Speaker 1: to point out that this Gregor the Beautiful thing was
4:48
Speaker 1: probably not meant sarcastically like little job or something. No,
4:53
Speaker 1: it was a super ugly dude.
4:55
Speaker 3: No.
4:55
Speaker 4: I think he was probably a bit of a hunk
4:57
Speaker 4: because his grandson Gregor and all the portraits that we've
5:01
Speaker 4: been able to find of him, a pretty dashing figure.
5:04
Speaker 4: Real smoke show, Yes, absolutely, we welcome to the Wow.
5:07
Speaker 4: Wow man, you got some feels about greg Oh?
5:10
Speaker 1: No, I just wanted an excuse to use this wonderful
5:13
Speaker 1: phrase that John Oliver used recently.
5:16
Speaker 4: Oh what a smoke show or a snack?
5:17
Speaker 1: Absolute snack, that's good described it and I thought, Wow,
5:20
Speaker 1: John Oliver, that's pretty racy.
5:22
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you one thing that's very snackable about
5:24
Speaker 4: him are his delicious mutton chops, because they are a
5:28
Speaker 4: thing of beauty. My friend. So he had a career
5:30
Speaker 4: in a military career, pretty storied military career, sure didn'ty?
5:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he had years and years of service in
5:38
Speaker 1: the British Army. And let's talk a little bit about
5:42
Speaker 1: how he got wrapped up in all these military shenanigans
5:47
Speaker 1: and escapades. McGregor used to joined the British Army at sixteen,
5:53
Speaker 1: which was that you have to be at least sixteen
5:55
Speaker 1: to join the army at this time. He joined in
5:57
Speaker 1: April eighteen oh three. Oh wait, we have to go back,
6:00
Speaker 1: did we say when he was born December seventeen eighty six?
6:04
Speaker 1: Crucial crucial date, crucial deep crucial date, the twenty fourth
6:08
Speaker 1: of December in fact. Anyhow, fast forwardy sixteen April of
6:12
Speaker 1: eighteen oh three. He signs up for the British Army.
6:15
Speaker 1: His family had purchased a commission for him to serve
6:19
Speaker 1: as an ensign in the fifty seventh West Middlesex Regiment
6:24
Speaker 1: of Foot.
6:24
Speaker 4: We purchased a commission for him, like bought his way
6:27
Speaker 4: into a cushy military job.
6:30
Speaker 1: Bought his way to officer status. So it cost around
6:34
Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty pounds. Interesting because his family is
6:36
Speaker 1: pretty well off. Sure, he's got he's a laired Yeah,
6:40
Speaker 1: he's got a landed grandfather. Right, So when he enters
6:44
Speaker 1: the military. Funny story, At the same time, something called
6:50
Speaker 1: the Napoleonic Wars is occurring in Europe.
6:53
Speaker 4: I feel as though we've heard of this before.
6:55
Speaker 1: I think so. I think so. Longtime listeners may may
6:59
Speaker 1: have a vague image of bunnies hopping into their heads.
7:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, and steamy fanfic involving our born Napoleon and Alexander bizarre.
7:07
Speaker 1: Yeaesha, Yes, it was bizarre, to say the least worth it. Oh,
7:12
Speaker 1: thank you. I'll be here for the rest of the show.
7:14
Speaker 4: Good. I need you, I need you, Ben, I need you.
7:17
Speaker 1: Are you gonna stay for the rest of this show too?
7:19
Speaker 1: We'll see Okay, great, we'll play it by ear And
7:22
Speaker 1: that's what McGregor was doing.
7:24
Speaker 4: Nice.
7:24
Speaker 1: Thanks. So he does serve in the military, and at
7:28
Speaker 1: this time he is actually doing the work. In February
7:36
Speaker 1: of eighteen oh four, less than a year into his training,
7:40
Speaker 1: he is promoted without purchasing a commission, so he earns
7:45
Speaker 1: the rank of lieutenant. And this is important because that
7:48
Speaker 1: kind of advancement usually takes much longer, like three years.
7:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, and what was he like in his twenties, he would.
7:55
Speaker 1: Still not be twenty. He would be around like maybe
7:58
Speaker 1: just about to turn eighteen.
7:59
Speaker 4: This is in eighteen four four, that's right.
8:03
Speaker 1: And as he is serving the British Army, he is
8:10
Speaker 1: still networking with people. He meets the daughter of a
8:14
Speaker 1: Royal Navy admiral named Maria Bowater, and she had a
8:19
Speaker 1: pretty hefty.
8:21
Speaker 4: Dowry, didn't he didn't he wife her up?
8:23
Speaker 3: He did?
8:24
Speaker 1: He did. He wifed her up. He also bought the
8:28
Speaker 1: rank of captain for about nine hundred pounds and he
8:32
Speaker 1: could have waited to get the promotion to earn it,
8:35
Speaker 1: but that would have taken seven years. And he was
8:37
Speaker 1: a man on a mission.
8:38
Speaker 4: Got palms being greased in this situation, aren't there? Ben?
8:42
Speaker 4: And I think we're already seeing some foreshadowing of our
8:45
Speaker 4: boy Gregor McGregor's slippery nature.
8:49
Speaker 1: That's right, Nol. And we see his extroverted nature go
8:53
Speaker 1: international pretty soon when he is in his twenties. He
8:59
Speaker 1: doesn't just stay in your trope, you see, he is interested,
9:03
Speaker 1: intrigued by the colonial revolts against Spanish rule in Latin America,
9:09
Speaker 1: particularly Venezuela.
9:11
Speaker 4: Venezuela and he kind of joins forces or offers his
9:15
Speaker 4: services to I guess this guy, Simon Bolivar bar right,
9:21
Speaker 4: who is like the head or the leader of this
9:25
Speaker 4: kind of rebellion. His nickname was the Liberator. In fact,
9:29
Speaker 4: earned that nickname by liberating what is now the republics
9:34
Speaker 4: of Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Panama and Bolivia, made them
9:40
Speaker 4: sovereign states and freed them from Spanish rule. And this
9:43
Speaker 4: is all in the midst of that hub ub there, right, yes, yeah, absolutely,
9:49
Speaker 4: So how does a how does a young scotsman throw
9:51
Speaker 4: his hat in the ring to a revolt like this?
9:54
Speaker 4: I guess they needed all the help they can get,
9:56
Speaker 4: or what.
9:57
Speaker 1: They need all the help we could get. Also, we
10:00
Speaker 1: should point out that in December of eighteen eleven, Maria
10:04
Speaker 1: McGregor had passed away, so he is now no longer
10:09
Speaker 1: a married man. When he arrives in Venezuela, it's not
10:14
Speaker 1: long after an earthquake has destroyed a lot of the city.
10:19
Speaker 1: This is in April of eighteen twelve. Some of the
10:23
Speaker 1: country was under control of advancing royalist armies. The revolutionary
10:28
Speaker 1: government was starting to collapse on itself and break into
10:32
Speaker 1: different factions. McGregor didn't want to talk about his titles
10:41
Speaker 1: in his European life. He wanted to seem pretty legit
10:45
Speaker 1: to the Republicans, so he kept calling himself Sir Gregor,
10:51
Speaker 1: and then he started claiming he was a Knight of
10:53
Speaker 1: the Portuguese Order of Christ, and then he offered his
10:58
Speaker 1: services to Venezuelan revolutionaries. The first one he offered his
11:04
Speaker 1: service to was a guy named Francisco de Miranda, and
11:08
Speaker 1: Francisco ended up being a pretty good person for MacGregor
11:11
Speaker 1: to know. We'll see throughout this that McGregor uses people
11:14
Speaker 1: and throws them away. He had promoted McGregor eventually to
11:18
Speaker 1: brigadier general in eighteen.
11:20
Speaker 4: Twelve, but he also this guy Miranda was really fascinated
11:25
Speaker 4: by the idea of kind of having a new Incan
11:28
Speaker 4: empire in South America, like where the streets would be
11:32
Speaker 4: paved with gold and the trees would be overflowing with
11:35
Speaker 4: ripe fruit and it would be just this like kind
11:37
Speaker 4: of Shangri La or Eden type paradise, right, And this
11:41
Speaker 4: was a notion that I think he started implanting in
11:45
Speaker 4: McGregor's head that will kind of come out in this
11:49
Speaker 4: story very very soon.
11:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, good call, good call. So eventually things go
11:56
Speaker 1: wrong for Francisco de Miranda, who apparently had also just
12:02
Speaker 1: a side note here, been knocking boots with Catherine the Great?
12:05
Speaker 4: Did you see that just occasionally?
12:07
Speaker 1: I think just occasionally. They didn't want to put a
12:09
Speaker 1: label on it, you know what I mean, very forward thinking,
12:12
Speaker 1: It was complicated. It was a time of revolution. So unfortunately,
12:17
Speaker 1: Francisco da Moranda had been captured by Spanish forces and
12:22
Speaker 1: he had been shipped off to prison, where he spent
12:26
Speaker 1: four years chained to a wall. McGregor. However, despite losing
12:33
Speaker 1: his patron at this point or his main connection with
12:37
Speaker 1: the military structure, he continues on his journey and he
12:41
Speaker 1: makes a name for himself. People say, hey, have you
12:44
Speaker 1: guys seen how brave that guy is? Have you seen
12:47
Speaker 1: what a great leader he is? Or more likely, I
12:51
Speaker 1: held my hand in front of the mic like I'm whispering.
12:53
Speaker 1: I want I want everyone to know that I did that.
12:56
Speaker 1: Even though you can't see, he's still doing it. I'm
12:57
Speaker 1: still doing it, still doing I'm feeling feeling this monol
13:00
Speaker 1: because yeah, they said he's courageous, and they said he
13:04
Speaker 1: was a great leader, and.
13:05
Speaker 4: Look at those chops.
13:05
Speaker 1: Look at those beautiful, gorgeous mutton chops, right, Or did
13:10
Speaker 1: he just make up stories wherein he looked courageous and
13:14
Speaker 1: looked like a good leader. Yeah, but that's the thing though,
13:17
Speaker 1: in and around this time, and then it'll become even
13:19
Speaker 1: more apparent once our boy kind of makes the trip
13:22
Speaker 1: back to his home country.
13:24
Speaker 4: In London, things were not so good. People wanted heroes.
13:27
Speaker 4: They wanted to believe these kinds of stories. They wanted
13:29
Speaker 4: to look up to someone like this guy and be
13:32
Speaker 4: able to say, hey, look at that shining example of
13:35
Speaker 4: a man with those delightful mutton chops. I want to
13:39
Speaker 4: follow that guy.
13:40
Speaker 1: That's really good context to put on this. And I
13:42
Speaker 1: think you're absolutely correct. People need a hero, right, And
13:48
Speaker 1: whether he is a real hero or not, it's debatable.
13:53
Speaker 1: We'll leave that decision to you, folks, regardless. He rose
13:57
Speaker 1: from the position of staff colonel to the general of
14:01
Speaker 1: division in the Army of Venezuela and New Grenada when
14:04
Speaker 1: he was only thirty years old and he was kicking
14:07
Speaker 1: keisters and taking names. He fought in a ton of
14:11
Speaker 1: battles and still leagued up with this Venezuelan revolutionary right right,
14:18
Speaker 1: and he became known for these epic campaigns and his
14:24
Speaker 1: role in these pivotal, decisive battles attracts national attention. And
14:30
Speaker 1: Simon Boulevar, who we mentioned just a second ago, also
14:34
Speaker 1: comes in person to award McGregor these various accolades for
14:40
Speaker 1: his actions of wartime.
14:41
Speaker 4: Yeah, like serious accolades. He was awarded the insignia of
14:46
Speaker 4: the Order of the Libertatores, which was the name of
14:49
Speaker 4: the militaristic group that Boulevar headed up. And McGregor was
14:56
Speaker 4: more than ready and willing to capitalize on these acts galades,
15:01
Speaker 4: you know, in order to earn some serious coin.
15:05
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, he got married again to a relative of
15:13
Speaker 1: the Supreme Commander Boulevar, and he also found that peace
15:19
Speaker 1: was sort of a letdown to him, you know.
15:23
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I mean not only that, it's just like
15:24
Speaker 4: in peace, there's there's no money to be made.
15:27
Speaker 1: And that's what he was after, where's the next grift?
15:30
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, I mean, because I don't know, it's weird
15:32
Speaker 4: he's up to now he does. He certainly is part
15:36
Speaker 4: of some conflicts that make him seem like you could
15:39
Speaker 4: view him as some kind of like military genius or
15:42
Speaker 4: you know, some kind of like war hero. But it
15:44
Speaker 4: does feel like he was rising in the ranks all
15:47
Speaker 4: the while, sometimes using payoffs and sometimes you know, throwing
15:52
Speaker 4: people under the bus and using people for their influence.
15:56
Speaker 4: But it all seemed pretty self serving. But I don't know,
15:58
Speaker 4: maybe that's just politics.
15:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, maybe it is. Because he continued fighting his
16:05
Speaker 1: own kind of private war. And so after his time
16:08
Speaker 1: in Venezuela, where he finds peace, anti climactic and let's
16:11
Speaker 1: be honest, not all that profitable, he leads a series
16:15
Speaker 1: of independent military campaigns in the Caribbean, and History dot
16:20
Speaker 1: Com has a great has a great article on this
16:24
Speaker 1: by Evan Andrews. But I won't want to read the
16:26
Speaker 1: title yet because you don't want to spoil the story.
16:29
Speaker 1: He did something pretty interesting. He just arbitrarily would promote
16:35
Speaker 1: the people who worked for him, the different freebooters that
16:38
Speaker 1: he was hiring and mercenaries. I'm like, oh, I like
16:40
Speaker 1: the cut of your jib. You're a lieutenant.
16:43
Speaker 4: Now I'm my crew, right.
16:45
Speaker 1: And his big tent campaign in this period of his
16:50
Speaker 1: life was the brief capture of Florida's Amelia Island from
16:55
Speaker 1: the Spanish. He also was not the most impressive military commander.
17:01
Speaker 1: At least by this point he was known to immediately
17:06
Speaker 1: desert his army.
17:07
Speaker 4: There you go, here's some chinks in the armor, Ben
17:09
Speaker 4: give it. He was because he cultivated his image of
17:12
Speaker 4: himself and then clearly that was more important than actually being,
17:15
Speaker 4: you know, a good guy or an effective leader.
17:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's the truth. That's what we were
17:20
Speaker 1: alluding to earlier when we talked about his courage and
17:23
Speaker 1: his leadership. It turns out that he as long as
17:26
Speaker 1: everything was going fine for his army, he was completely
17:30
Speaker 1: on board and one hundred percent down for the cause. However,
17:34
Speaker 1: if things appeared to go south, sideways or pear shaped,
17:37
Speaker 1: as they say in the UK, he would ghost. But
17:42
Speaker 1: he still kept his knack for self promotion and deception.
17:47
Speaker 1: So the accounts he would tell of various military conflicts
17:51
Speaker 1: differed from the accounts everybody else would tell, and he
17:55
Speaker 1: became known, at least in this area of the world.
17:58
Speaker 1: It's very important detail as a bit of a blustering braggart,
18:05
Speaker 1: but still a charmer, just very self aggrandizing and a
18:11
Speaker 1: guy who thought he was the smartest person in the
18:14
Speaker 1: room and was convinced that he could sell anyone on anything.
18:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, and as we're gonna find out, he kind of could.
18:23
Speaker 1: Yes, should we just jump there?
18:24
Speaker 4: Oh, we definitely, we can jump there. In the form
18:33
Speaker 4: of a slight lead up in that he kind of
18:35
Speaker 4: waged what the History of Today article various two he
18:38
Speaker 4: describes as a private war where he included in that
18:43
Speaker 4: was that capture of that fortress that you mentioned. But
18:46
Speaker 4: most importantly him and his associates, the band of Brigands.
18:51
Speaker 4: I guess that he's sort of amassed landed on the
18:54
Speaker 4: mainland of Nicaragua, where there is a stretch of coast
19:00
Speaker 4: region called the Mosquito.
19:01
Speaker 1: Coast, Yes, also known as the Mosquito Kingdom.
19:05
Speaker 4: M hmm.
19:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is an important part here. Nowadays it's the
19:14
Speaker 1: eastern coast of Nicaragua and Honduras. Just a little bit
19:17
Speaker 1: of southern Honduras shares this area, but the Mosquito Coast
19:22
Speaker 1: was generally thought of as the domain of the Mosquito
19:27
Speaker 1: or Mosquito Kingdom, and they had an interesting tension in
19:34
Speaker 1: this area between the British, the US and the countries
19:38
Speaker 1: of Nicaragua and Honduras.
19:41
Speaker 4: Well, not to mention the Native America, the Native people,
19:44
Speaker 4: the Mosquito Indians, right, yeah, And.
19:47
Speaker 1: We had a strange situation here because the Mosquito people
19:52
Speaker 1: had their own rulers or kings, and they had a
19:57
Speaker 1: specific name, right.
19:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, man.
19:59
Speaker 1: They had some thing of a king who was called
20:02
Speaker 1: the Cacique series of kings, Yes, series of kings.
20:05
Speaker 4: This is the Cacique king of the Mosquito Indians. And
20:09
Speaker 4: this individual made a bit of a devil's bargain with
20:13
Speaker 4: our boy McGregor.
20:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so for context, the Cacique, the kings of
20:20
Speaker 1: this area of the Mosquito people, allowed foreigners to settle
20:25
Speaker 1: in their lands so long as their overall sovereignty was respected.
20:31
Speaker 1: And a lot of British merchants and Garifuno people from
20:35
Speaker 1: Honduras took advantage of this. And one of these kings,
20:39
Speaker 1: one of these Caziques, makes a deal with Gregor McGregor.
20:44
Speaker 1: For I believe it was thirty thirty miles of land, that's.
20:48
Speaker 4: Right, and it was on what's known as the Poias Shore.
20:54
Speaker 4: And so with that land grant that sureley was on
20:58
Speaker 4: the up and up this deal. Right, Surely, all the
21:02
Speaker 4: teas were crossed and the eyes were dotted.
21:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm convinced.
21:05
Speaker 4: Uh huh. Yeah. So, with this deal having been made,
21:09
Speaker 4: McGregor makes his way back to England, to London in particular,
21:15
Speaker 4: making some pretty outrageous claims.
21:19
Speaker 1: Right yeah. So after he makes this deal in eighteen twenty,
21:22
Speaker 1: he becomes a whole new Gregor McGregor. He is the
21:26
Speaker 1: Prince of Poios. He's named his newfound dominion Poios. And
21:32
Speaker 1: boy is Poios a great place. This is where we
21:35
Speaker 1: see the inspiration he received from Miranda's vision of a
21:40
Speaker 1: new Incland Empire. Popping back up again, he described this
21:44
Speaker 1: place in very hyperbolic, fascinating, almost too good to be
21:51
Speaker 1: truish terms.
21:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, like stuff like flowing with milk and honey, you know,
21:56
Speaker 4: fruit trees spilling with delicious ripe fruit, water so pure
22:02
Speaker 4: that it would quench any thirst. I think was one
22:04
Speaker 4: of them right then.
22:06
Speaker 1: And he claimed he was the Kazique or the king
22:09
Speaker 1: slash prince of this area, and that this was an
22:13
Speaker 1: obscure but prosperous nation, and not only was it a
22:18
Speaker 1: hidden gem across the sea, but it was an act
22:22
Speaker 1: now situation because you see, Londoners, you too can be
22:27
Speaker 1: part of the dream. The Kazique of Poias has come
22:31
Speaker 1: on a mission to solicit investments and to recruit potential settlers.
22:38
Speaker 4: Right. And there's a super cool exitt from a book
22:41
Speaker 4: by Maria Khanikhova that is on the BBC that talks
22:46
Speaker 4: about some of the psychological principles of persuasion that Conman used,
22:52
Speaker 4: in particular that Gregor McGregor used. Do you want to
22:55
Speaker 4: talk through some of those.
22:56
Speaker 1: Sure, let's round robin it. There are six. The first
22:59
Speaker 1: is reciprocity.
23:01
Speaker 4: Reciprocity I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine, coming from McGregor.
23:05
Speaker 1: Hey, I'm giving you this chance of a lifetime. All
23:08
Speaker 1: you got to do for me is give me all
23:10
Speaker 1: your money. And then consistency of behavior, meaning that whether
23:15
Speaker 1: it is true or a lie, I am going to
23:18
Speaker 1: believe the same thing I did.
23:20
Speaker 4: Yesterday, right exactly. Then we have social validation, which is
23:25
Speaker 4: super important because it's basically like, if I'm saying to you, Ben, Ben,
23:30
Speaker 4: you gotta do this. It's gonna make you a real,
23:33
Speaker 4: real true scotsman, a real true man's man, a Robinson
23:38
Speaker 4: Caruso type, you know, going out and taming the wilds.
23:41
Speaker 4: And at the same time it's gonna be awesome, so
23:43
Speaker 4: don't worry about it.
23:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's there's a clever thing there too, because
23:47
Speaker 1: the social validation there is I have specifically chosen you
23:52
Speaker 1: to be part of this.
23:53
Speaker 4: Yes, for your merits that are just on display, Ben,
23:57
Speaker 4: I want you to be part of my new utopia.
24:00
Speaker 1: Also, this is just between us. I like you as
24:03
Speaker 1: a person. That's number four. You know we're we're friends,
24:07
Speaker 1: we're buddies, we're pals. You know you're you're pal with
24:11
Speaker 1: the Kozique of Poia.
24:12
Speaker 4: How cool is that? And here's a really important one.
24:15
Speaker 4: And you see it's funny you see a mix of
24:17
Speaker 4: these being used in everything from like offers on Facebook
24:21
Speaker 4: and things to like ticket sales. You notice how every
24:23
Speaker 4: time you see an ad for like concert tickets, they
24:25
Speaker 4: always say really going quick, acting quick, get them now.
24:29
Speaker 1: You gotta get them while they're hot, because there's just
24:32
Speaker 1: not enough to go around me.
24:33
Speaker 4: Because it's just such an amazing opportunity. And if you
24:36
Speaker 4: don't do it, somebody else will, so you better hop
24:39
Speaker 4: on it. And then finally, what do we have?
24:41
Speaker 1: Yes, finally authority. I know what I am talking about, oh,
24:46
Speaker 1: says the grifter.
24:47
Speaker 4: And not only that, this is my favorite part of
24:49
Speaker 4: this whole story. Actually, McGregor actually wrote a book, yes,
24:55
Speaker 4: under an assumed name, called Sketch of the Mosquito Shore,
25:02
Speaker 4: including the Territory of Poios. And it was written by
25:07
Speaker 4: a man by the name of Thomas strange Ways. Thomas Strangeways,
25:13
Speaker 4: Captain Thomas Strangers.
25:15
Speaker 1: Yes, pardon me, Captain Thomas.
25:18
Speaker 4: Exactly, but yeah, I mean everything all signs point to
25:22
Speaker 4: this was in fact McGregor. So he was like laying
25:25
Speaker 4: the groundwork for this grift. This is a long con man.
25:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, and people did not have the same I guess,
25:33
Speaker 1: I don't want to say wherewithal, but they didn't have
25:35
Speaker 1: the same resources access to that we have today to
25:39
Speaker 1: verify information. So Thomas strange Ways, oh, excuse me again,
25:44
Speaker 1: Captain Thomas strange Ways just had a really interesting name,
25:48
Speaker 1: sounded like a great well traveled adventurer, and in very
25:52
Speaker 1: idyllic bucolic terms described this hitherto unknown nation of Poya.
26:00
Speaker 4: Yeah, and he described it just as we described it,
26:02
Speaker 4: just as McGregor described it as this place, oh gold
26:06
Speaker 4: just overflowing from the river everywhere, just everywhere, lousy with gold.
26:10
Speaker 4: And here's the thing with that authority point of persuasion.
26:13
Speaker 4: This makes it even better because he's saying, don't take
26:16
Speaker 4: my word for it. Check out this guy, Captain. Strange ways,
26:20
Speaker 4: he's been there. He wrote a book about it. Who
26:22
Speaker 4: would write a book about it if it wasn't true.
26:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was quite delighted to find that my tiny,
26:28
Speaker 1: beautiful nation was the subject of a book. You seem
26:32
Speaker 1: well read. You've surely heard of the sketches right here.
26:36
Speaker 1: Here's a little little stud a little exhibit from the.
26:38
Speaker 4: Preface Mosquito Shaw, including the territory of Poios, being impressed
26:44
Speaker 4: with a thorough conviction of the immense benefit which not
26:47
Speaker 4: only the native tribes of Mosquitia, but the neighboring countries
26:52
Speaker 4: in general, must derive from the civilization and improvement of
26:56
Speaker 4: one of the fairest portions of the globe. Has endeavored
26:59
Speaker 4: in the following sheets to attract the attention of enlightened
27:02
Speaker 4: Europeans to the subject, by combining the knowledge of its history,
27:07
Speaker 4: natural productions, the best mode of culture, and et cetera,
27:11
Speaker 4: which he acquired during a portion of his life spent
27:14
Speaker 4: in that part of the world.
27:15
Speaker 1: This is was that your Matt Berry, I don't know
27:17
Speaker 1: kind of it was it was. It was yeah, yes, no.
27:20
Speaker 4: But so this is this is so met up because
27:21
Speaker 4: this is McGregor, right, writing a preface like you know
27:26
Speaker 4: himself for Strange four Strange Ways, who is also himself.
27:30
Speaker 1: And it's it's long preference. We know that sounded like
27:32
Speaker 1: a long thing. But that's just an excerpt.
27:34
Speaker 4: It's just an exerpt. But the point is is from
27:36
Speaker 4: the start it reads like a treatise for how awesome
27:39
Speaker 4: this place is.
27:40
Speaker 1: It's like like a timeshare pamphlet or an infomercial that
27:44
Speaker 1: purports to be a documentary. Right, And at this time
27:47
Speaker 1: now the he's reinvented himself as the Khysique, as his
27:51
Speaker 1: Highness Gregor. He is a fixture in London's high society.
27:57
Speaker 1: Wealthy aristocrats set him and his wife up in a
28:00
Speaker 1: country home. The Lord Mayor holds a banquet in his
28:04
Speaker 1: honor and people start to trust him because he's charming,
28:09
Speaker 1: and he cites all his past military achievements and you
28:12
Speaker 1: know what, I've got to stop just for a second.
28:15
Speaker 1: Strange Ways is just such a terrible, terrible name. It's
28:18
Speaker 1: like Timmy mcreal name.
28:19
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, Gregor McGregor's not great either. Yeah, but
28:24
Speaker 4: it's real. Yeah, but that's the real one. That's just
28:26
Speaker 4: so weird. I'm not making fun of Scottish names. I
28:28
Speaker 4: just think any name where like the first name and
28:30
Speaker 4: the last name are the same inherently absurd sounding to me.
28:33
Speaker 4: But that's just my opinion.
28:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's you know, Humbert, Humbert all that sort
28:38
Speaker 1: of stuff exactly. But even though he's Gregor McGregor, excuse me,
28:42
Speaker 1: his highness the Khasique Gregor, he is really and genuinely
28:48
Speaker 1: winning people over because he doesn't just come with great stories.
28:52
Speaker 1: He doesn't just come with a book that he didn't write.
28:57
Speaker 1: He also, you see, has tons and tons of official documents,
29:01
Speaker 1: all kinds of paperwork. He has a handwritten lands grant
29:05
Speaker 1: from the Mosquito King, which is a great band name.
29:09
Speaker 1: He has a national flag. He has charts and maps
29:12
Speaker 1: showing the location and border of Poios.
29:14
Speaker 4: I think he even had some currency from the Bank
29:17
Speaker 4: of Poios.
29:18
Speaker 1: Yes, he has currency. I think they call it what
29:20
Speaker 1: one hard note.
29:22
Speaker 4: Oh, and it says at the bottom, by order of
29:24
Speaker 4: His Highness Gregor Kazik of Poios. Yes.
29:27
Speaker 1: And the problem with all this one hard dollar one
29:32
Speaker 1: hard dollar, which is a weird phrase little bit. Yeah,
29:36
Speaker 1: but the problem with all of this documentation is that
29:41
Speaker 1: almost all of it is entirely fabricated by him. He
29:46
Speaker 1: has he has made up these dollars. And remember that
29:49
Speaker 1: crazy fraudulent music festival called Firefest that happened last year
29:55
Speaker 1: with the jaw rule, I think I think that's right.
29:58
Speaker 4: But basically what it was was the total bait and
30:00
Speaker 4: switch where they were selling these premium packages to you know,
30:04
Speaker 4: rabid bougie concert goers to go to this like private
30:08
Speaker 4: island where this concert was going to be held, and
30:12
Speaker 4: everyone showed up and they're suppose they were expecting all
30:15
Speaker 4: these crazy accommodations and like nothing, there was nothing. It
30:18
Speaker 4: was just trash. It was these like crappy tents. There
30:21
Speaker 4: was just like you know, no sand, no wood, just
30:24
Speaker 4: just totally filthy and absolute, you know, just complete grift.
30:30
Speaker 4: That's what the the handful of hapless settlers who abandoned
30:36
Speaker 4: their homes for a better life under the benevolent you know,
30:42
Speaker 4: hand of the Kazique of Poyas, that's what they found.
30:46
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it sounds crazy, but let's let's step back
30:48
Speaker 1: a little and see how it happened. Because he floats
30:51
Speaker 1: a two hundred thousand pounds sterling Poya's bond in the
30:54
Speaker 1: London money market, and then he also starts selling land
30:58
Speaker 1: and titles. Two would be caughtists and you could get
31:01
Speaker 1: a pretty good deal. For just eleven pounds, you could
31:04
Speaker 1: purchase one hundred acres of Poya farmland, and if you
31:09
Speaker 1: were a little more well to do, you could buy
31:12
Speaker 1: a post as an officer in the military, the same
31:16
Speaker 1: way the Kazique became.
31:18
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, you know, paying forward, paying.
31:21
Speaker 1: Forward, you know, in the sleaziest way possible.
31:24
Speaker 4: And how crazy that the value of those bonds you
31:27
Speaker 4: mentioned just ballooned over time.
31:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And in September of eighteen twenty two, a
31:37
Speaker 1: ship called the Honduras Packet set sail from London with
31:41
Speaker 1: as as you said, a handful of people bound for Poya,
31:46
Speaker 1: probably with their land deeds clutched in their hands. And
31:50
Speaker 1: that first ship only took about what several dozen people.
31:55
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's a second one called the Kinnersley Castle,
31:59
Speaker 4: and I believe bewe even the two there was two
32:01
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty folks in total, and they were just
32:04
Speaker 4: expecting paradise, you know, as as well they should have given,
32:10
Speaker 4: you know, the salesmanship of our guy McGregor.
32:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. So these people who are called poyers, most of
32:18
Speaker 1: them invested their entire life savings in this journey. As
32:22
Speaker 1: you said. No, no, they sold their houses. Some had even
32:25
Speaker 1: converted all their cash to hard poise dollars. Shaking my head,
32:30
Speaker 1: I feel bad for these hapless SAPs. Yeah, it's terrible,
32:33
Speaker 1: you know. At the same time, again, though, things were
32:36
Speaker 1: not so hot in the in the world at large,
32:38
Speaker 1: and certainly the kind of people that maybe would look
32:41
Speaker 1: at this as an opportunity to start again. You know,
32:43
Speaker 1: Scotland is pretty bleak, No, the weather's not great. It
32:48
Speaker 1: felt like maybe to some this was a way to
32:50
Speaker 1: break out of their kind of typical humdrum routine and
32:55
Speaker 1: start a new life for what seemed like a too
32:58
Speaker 1: good to pass up deal, which is an another part
33:00
Speaker 1: of manipulative techniques of grifters is the idea there's two notions.
33:06
Speaker 1: One is you're spurring somebody towards making a decision that
33:09
Speaker 1: you want them to make right and also making sure
33:11
Speaker 1: that the decision seems like something that they would be too.
33:14
Speaker 1: It would be a fool to reject this offer because
33:17
Speaker 1: it's just like a no brainer, right. Yeah, And it's
33:19
Speaker 1: also very helpful. You know you've done well when they
33:22
Speaker 1: feel as though it is their own idea. Hey, Cazique,
33:26
Speaker 1: you and I are friends, right, you know what, poya
33:29
Speaker 1: sounds so good that I would like to go. Napoleon
33:33
Speaker 1: has just been defeated. The British economy is expanding, and
33:39
Speaker 1: you know, I'm in a good mood. I think it's
33:40
Speaker 1: a it's a time to make a change, right. And
33:44
Speaker 1: this works very well for the Cazique at first. But
33:50
Speaker 1: for these poor investors, the poya they were promised is
33:54
Speaker 1: not the poya they find when they land.
33:57
Speaker 4: Now, is that firefest situation? Yeah?
33:59
Speaker 1: Exactly. They see no farmland. They see mile after mile
34:03
Speaker 1: of dense, nigh impenetrable jungle, and they are wondering, you know,
34:10
Speaker 1: where is all the crystal clear water. Where is all
34:13
Speaker 1: the abundant, rich soil we will promised? Where the heck
34:17
Speaker 1: is this civilization you told us about.
34:24
Speaker 4: I here's a fantastic exert from an account of the
34:28
Speaker 4: time that was reprinted in The Guardian recently.
34:32
Speaker 1: Yeah. This from the Guardian archive was in print the
34:35
Speaker 1: twenty fifth of October eighteen twenty three by the time
34:38
Speaker 1: that a couple of settlers had made it back.
34:42
Speaker 4: So here it goes. When the immigrants arrived at San Joseph,
34:46
Speaker 4: nothing could exceed their anguish on finding where they expected
34:50
Speaker 4: a fine flourishing town with nearly two thousand inhabitants only
34:54
Speaker 4: two or three ruined huts. The party exerted themselves vigorously
34:58
Speaker 4: clearing away some stunted mahogany trees from about six hundred
35:02
Speaker 4: yards of sandy ground and erecting a number of little
35:04
Speaker 4: huts and tents with blankets to protect them from the weather.
35:07
Speaker 4: Nearly all of their provisions, however, had been wet and landing,
35:10
Speaker 4: as they had been compelled to roll all their barrels
35:13
Speaker 4: for a considerable distance through salt water. The sun in
35:17
Speaker 4: the daytime was intolerably hot, and the nights were cold
35:20
Speaker 4: with heavy rain. So what ended up happening was a
35:25
Speaker 4: lot of people died. They got very sickened because the
35:28
Speaker 4: water was not that pure, clean drinking water that was described.
35:33
Speaker 1: It was brackish and contaminated with animal waste as well.
35:38
Speaker 1: So in a very short amount of time, I think
35:41
Speaker 1: twenty people died and everyone who didn't die got sick,
35:46
Speaker 1: And along comes the real Cazique, the king of the
35:51
Speaker 1: Mosquito Indians. He visits them to see what's going on.
35:55
Speaker 4: Yeah, who the heck are you guys?
35:57
Speaker 1: Right? And we have an excerpt that explains this situation
36:02
Speaker 1: pretty well. Try to imagine the king's utter bafflement here.
36:07
Speaker 1: He afterwards sen a letter stating that he made a
36:09
Speaker 1: grant of thirty miles of land on the Poiish Shore
36:12
Speaker 1: to Sir Gregor MacGregor three years ago, but that quote
36:17
Speaker 1: unquote Sir Gregor, having until that time neglected to take possession,
36:22
Speaker 1: he considered the grant as void, and that had he
36:26
Speaker 1: then known Sir Gregor as he did now, he would
36:30
Speaker 1: never have made the grant. He would oppose the settlement
36:33
Speaker 1: of anyone belonging to Sir Gregor within his territory, and
36:37
Speaker 1: prescribed as the condition of their remaining in peace, that
36:41
Speaker 1: they should abjure Sir Gregor and swear allegiance to him.
36:45
Speaker 4: So, in other words, he became aware of what a
36:48
Speaker 4: bastard Gregor was.
36:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, utter bastard. And so at this stage he also
36:55
Speaker 1: threatens some of these settlers. He says, and we'll paraphrase here,
36:59
Speaker 1: that he could call up seven thousand natives and cut
37:03
Speaker 1: off the entire settler community at one blow. But by
37:09
Speaker 1: this point, and by their own emission, the settlers felt
37:12
Speaker 1: themselves past fear death was killing everybody off, just as
37:17
Speaker 1: surely as the mosquito king was threatening to do.
37:22
Speaker 4: Bad times. Man, there's a really sad little account of
37:25
Speaker 4: a man who was a shoemaker who was declared to
37:29
Speaker 4: be the official shoemaker of the Princess of Poya, whoever
37:34
Speaker 4: that was. Yeah, and he apparently got so sick that
37:37
Speaker 4: he took his own life by shooting himself while laying
37:41
Speaker 4: dying in a hammock.
37:43
Speaker 1: Yep, and six men tried to get to Honduras in
37:47
Speaker 1: a canoe. They ended up being castaways, but they were
37:53
Speaker 1: rescued by a guy named mister Bennett, who was a
37:57
Speaker 1: Mahogany merchant and an overall stand up dude. He learned
38:02
Speaker 1: of what was.
38:03
Speaker 4: Happening, Thank God for mister Bennett.
38:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he sent a ship to take as many
38:08
Speaker 1: settlers as he could to a hospital in Honduras and
38:13
Speaker 1: to fetch the rest of them on the second trip. However,
38:17
Speaker 1: at this point the situation is still fraught with danger
38:23
Speaker 1: because we mentioned Hondura's package right that's the first ship
38:27
Speaker 1: with about fifty people. We mentioned Kennersley Castle. That's the
38:31
Speaker 1: second ship with about two hundred people. There were two
38:34
Speaker 1: other ships on the way. There was the Albion, which
38:39
Speaker 1: was the third vessel to bring settlers. It was diverted
38:42
Speaker 1: to Belize after they discovered that the previous settlers had abandoned.
38:46
Speaker 4: This is so Firefest, dude, This is like, I mean,
38:49
Speaker 4: this is literally what happened with Firefest. People got trapped
38:51
Speaker 4: on the island. Yeah, they couldn't fly out a much
38:53
Speaker 4: bougier version of this, But I wonder if if joh Ruler,
38:57
Speaker 4: whoever the hell was responsible for that, looked at this
38:59
Speaker 4: story as like an inspiration.
39:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the other ship the scheme was sent bringing
39:06
Speaker 1: arms and supplies also diverted to Belize. And there also
39:11
Speaker 1: reports that five other vessels were on the way. But
39:15
Speaker 1: in a massive stroke of luck for these vessels, word
39:18
Speaker 1: reached Britain that Poya was entirely made up by that time,
39:23
Speaker 1: so the British Royal Navy intercepted these other five ships
39:26
Speaker 1: and turned them back. And again this all happened because
39:31
Speaker 1: there was such a scarcity of information and it took
39:35
Speaker 1: forever to contact people, especially over those long distances. All
39:40
Speaker 1: in all, McGregor's swindle here raised two hundred thousand pounds.
39:46
Speaker 1: But Noel, what happened when people found out about this.
39:49
Speaker 4: Well, they were justifiably enraged and they were thirsty for
39:55
Speaker 4: McGregor's blood. But by this point he had already high
39:58
Speaker 4: tailed it out of the country and posted up in France.
40:00
Speaker 4: Or I think he ran a a a few years
40:04
Speaker 4: more of other scams on the hapless Parisians. And by
40:09
Speaker 4: the way, if we're going to inflation calculator, that amount
40:12
Speaker 4: of money that he raised, it's it would be in
40:14
Speaker 4: the billions of dollars.
40:15
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, if we count France. There's a great article
40:19
Speaker 1: from the economists called The King of Conmen that that
40:23
Speaker 1: does the math for us here. Over his lifetime, those
40:27
Speaker 1: bond market frauds in the in England and in France
40:30
Speaker 1: run to the tune of one point three million And
40:35
Speaker 1: in today's terms, how much is that coac.
40:42
Speaker 4: That would be three point six a billion pounds, So
40:46
Speaker 4: that it's crazy and yeah, and so a big part
40:50
Speaker 4: of this, I guess once he got to Paris too.
40:52
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know, it must have been part
40:54
Speaker 4: of it for from the start. But this idea of
40:57
Speaker 4: these gold mines, you know, selling these parcels of land
41:01
Speaker 4: with the promise of these imaginary gold mines, that people
41:06
Speaker 4: would just be able to dislike, stick their hands in
41:08
Speaker 4: the water and just get get gold.
41:10
Speaker 1: Right, lousy with gold, blowsy with gold.
41:12
Speaker 4: But for whatever reason in this History Today article they
41:17
Speaker 4: conjecture that maybe Paris was a little too too hot
41:21
Speaker 4: for McGregor and his crew. They came back to London
41:25
Speaker 4: and thank god has little come up in s here.
41:27
Speaker 4: They were arrested on site and imprisoned in a prison
41:31
Speaker 4: called the Top Hill Fields.
41:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. We should note though that when he was in
41:37
Speaker 1: France he was doing the exact same scheme. He didn't
41:41
Speaker 1: even change the name of the country. I think that's
41:43
Speaker 1: part of why he was so quickly caught, you know.
41:46
Speaker 4: And I think I may have spoke too soon, Ben
41:49
Speaker 4: that come up and was maybe just the humiliation of
41:51
Speaker 4: being arrested. But as slippery as snake as this dude was,
41:56
Speaker 4: he was able to wriggle his way even out of
41:59
Speaker 4: this one.
42:00
Speaker 1: Yes, that is true. He was in tott Hillfield's bridewell
42:06
Speaker 1: for about a week before he was released without a charge.
42:10
Speaker 1: And then immediately he starts a newer version of the
42:14
Speaker 1: Poya scheme, and this time he calls himself Kazik of
42:17
Speaker 1: the Republic of Poyas. He sets up a new office
42:22
Speaker 1: and doesn't claim any of the diplomatic status that he
42:26
Speaker 1: had done with the other office, and he starts acting
42:30
Speaker 1: through proxies. He gets another company to act as brokers.
42:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he basically smartened up his grift a little bit, right,
42:37
Speaker 4: and then separated himself from it someway.
42:40
Speaker 1: Right, and he started selling other versions of this. By
42:47
Speaker 1: the time it hit eighteen twenty eight, he was selling
42:49
Speaker 1: certificates entitling holders to land in Poyas proper at five
42:55
Speaker 1: shillings per acre. Yeah. He goes on publishing these various
43:02
Speaker 1: documents papers power at this time.
43:04
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so he he published if it's printed, yeah,
43:07
Speaker 4: it must be true.
43:08
Speaker 1: Right, why would you go to the trouble? He publishes
43:10
Speaker 1: a constitution for a smaller republic headed by himself as president.
43:16
Speaker 1: He eventually, despite all his efforts, has a bit of
43:20
Speaker 1: a come to Jesus moment, as they would call it
43:23
Speaker 1: in the American South, and he understands that the Poya
43:26
Speaker 1: Grift has finally done it. Everybody knows, yes, every course
43:31
Speaker 1: is dead.
43:31
Speaker 4: Yeah, because he's burned through all his money. At this point,
43:35
Speaker 4: he's got no friends left to speak of, and so
43:38
Speaker 4: he goes back to the last place where he felt beloved,
43:42
Speaker 4: which was old Venezuela, where he still had some connects.
43:46
Speaker 4: He didn't screw anybody over there, exactly right, that I
43:49
Speaker 4: can think of. So he went back and actually petitioned
43:52
Speaker 4: the government to give him citizenship and restore his military rank.
43:58
Speaker 4: So he ended his life living in Venezuela as a
44:02
Speaker 4: general and got a government pension.
44:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, back pay as well and pension. And that's primarily
44:09
Speaker 1: because the Defense Minister had served a longside McGregor in
44:14
Speaker 1: an expedition in eighteen sixteen and said, you know what,
44:18
Speaker 1: this guy is a war hero. And this worked. The
44:23
Speaker 1: part of today's Honduras that was called Poya remains undeveloped today.
44:29
Speaker 1: There are no villages, no abundant farmland, no gold mines
44:34
Speaker 1: that anyone knows about. But McGregor himself, Old Gregor MacGregor
44:41
Speaker 1: passed away a freeman on December fourth, eighteen forty five.
44:47
Speaker 1: One of the greatest grifters ever lived, just an utter sleeve.
44:50
Speaker 4: Back you gotta admire the stones on this guy though, Man,
44:53
Speaker 4: I mean, good lord, just to keep it rolling like
44:57
Speaker 4: this for so long.
45:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, but hopefully a lesson to be learned. And we
45:04
Speaker 1: hope that you enjoyed this episode as well. Thanks so
45:08
Speaker 1: much forgiving us listen. Enjoyed.
45:10
Speaker 4: That's it. It's nothing. It's another one of these where yes,
45:12
Speaker 4: it's ridiculous, but god, this guy puts some people through
45:15
Speaker 4: the ringer, but I enjoyed learning about it.
45:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, tell us what you think and.
45:25
Speaker 4: Really annoying.
45:28
Speaker 3: It's a gentleman.
45:33
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland, the.
45:35
Speaker 4: Quizt Speaking of time, it's been a nice little stretch
45:39
Speaker 4: of time since we've had since you've darkened our studio.
45:42
Speaker 1: Door operative word being a nice stretch.
45:45
Speaker 3: You know. I heard so many complaints about my absence
45:49
Speaker 3: that I could not allow it to continue one breath longer.
45:55
Speaker 3: And so the most cringe worthy segmented all the podcasting has.
46:00
Speaker 4: I'm certainly cringing.
46:01
Speaker 1: You're also on a T shirt. It has gone too far.
46:06
Speaker 3: It's a top seller. So this is this is.
46:10
Speaker 1: Our non consensually recurring segment wherein you the Quiztor, also
46:17
Speaker 1: known as Jonathan Strickland.
46:18
Speaker 4: Just kind of materializes.
46:20
Speaker 1: Ye want, right when we think we're going to end
46:24
Speaker 1: the show to test our knowledge of historical fact and fiction?
46:29
Speaker 1: How does this work?
46:29
Speaker 3: I present to you a scenario, and I give you
46:33
Speaker 3: three minutes to determine whether said scenario in fact represents
46:38
Speaker 3: fact or I made it up seas and I could
46:42
Speaker 3: have made up a significant fact within the story and
46:47
Speaker 3: the rest of it be mostly true and it's still fakesies.
46:51
Speaker 3: Oh wow, So you asked me this every time, so
46:54
Speaker 3: I thought I was just get in front of it this. Yeah,
46:57
Speaker 3: because it's like you forget how this game works every
47:01
Speaker 3: time I come in here.
47:02
Speaker 4: So it's not for our benefit, man, it's for the
47:04
Speaker 4: new listeners. You just hear this weirdo popping up out
47:07
Speaker 4: of nowhere, and they want to know what gets I'm just.
47:10
Speaker 3: Just making sure because every time Ben says it, it's
47:12
Speaker 3: like he legitimately doesn't remember.
47:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got it.
47:15
Speaker 3: I'm a little concerned.
47:16
Speaker 1: I've got a pretty good acting range or some emergent
47:20
Speaker 1: issues and like the Memento guy, So if it's either
47:24
Speaker 1: all true or it's fake.
47:28
Speaker 3: So I give you the scenario and then I come
47:31
Speaker 3: up with some sort of arbitrary rule for you to
47:35
Speaker 3: follow if you want to ask me a question, which
47:39
Speaker 3: I now realize I did not think about before I
47:43
Speaker 3: came in here today. So we're going to say, if
47:46
Speaker 3: you wish to ask a question, once the time has started,
47:50
Speaker 3: you will preface that question with allen Z.
47:55
Speaker 1: Allen Z.
47:55
Speaker 3: You'll understand why. In a moment. I will now read
47:59
Speaker 3: to you scenario, and then at the conclusion we will
48:03
Speaker 3: start the clock. All right, here we are on August
48:06
Speaker 3: twenty first, nineteen eleven, one of the greatest art heists
48:11
Speaker 3: in history took place. A man who styled himself the
48:14
Speaker 3: Marquis Eduardo de Valfierno calmly walked into the Louver in Paris, France.
48:20
Speaker 3: He waited until no one was paying attention. He lifted
48:24
Speaker 3: Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa off the wall, slid it
48:28
Speaker 3: under his coat, and calmly walked out of the building.
48:31
Speaker 3: He had already sold the Mona Lisa to an interested buyer. Actually,
48:36
Speaker 3: he had sold it to six different interested buyers, because
48:40
Speaker 3: he had no intention of partying with the real painting
48:43
Speaker 3: you see, but rather had six forgeries made. It was
48:48
Speaker 3: the perfect crime. The people purchasing the stolen painting would
48:52
Speaker 3: surely not say anything about it, and they'd have no
48:55
Speaker 3: way of knowing about each other. An accomplice named Vincenzo
49:01
Speaker 3: Perugia was caught supposedly with one of the forgeries. According
49:06
Speaker 3: to this Marquis, Perugia would be tried for the theft
49:10
Speaker 3: and sentenced to serve out the jail sentence. The copy
49:14
Speaker 3: the forgery, according to Valfierno, would go to the louver
49:19
Speaker 3: where it hangs still. Valfierno told his story to journalist
49:22
Speaker 3: Carl Decker of The Saturday Evening Post years later. The
49:27
Speaker 3: whereabouts of the original Mona Lisa, according to Valfierno, are
49:32
Speaker 3: still unknown begin the time.
49:36
Speaker 1: Okay, first off, there's a lot of according to going
49:39
Speaker 1: on in here, so that guy could be lying, but
49:41
Speaker 1: the story about the lie could be true.
49:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good point, Ben, I don't know. You
49:44
Speaker 4: think it's just to throw us off.
49:46
Speaker 1: I don't know. In the past, the longer ones have
49:50
Speaker 1: been false. But I messed up on that point because
49:54
Speaker 1: I mentioned it in front of Jonathan Strickland aka the Quiztry.
49:58
Speaker 4: And he made a face.
49:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, he mad, I'll remember that phase all on zi.
50:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, messieur bullet.
50:07
Speaker 1: Does does anybody else corroborate this story told to the
50:12
Speaker 1: journalist or is it just the one guy?
50:14
Speaker 4: Oh?
50:15
Speaker 3: No, there have been several corroborations.
50:18
Speaker 1: Okay, several credible corroborations.
50:22
Speaker 3: Are you asking me to levy judgment upon those who
50:26
Speaker 3: corroborate this story?
50:28
Speaker 4: That does seem like a stretch band to.
50:29
Speaker 3: Answer to answer your to answer your question?
50:32
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
50:33
Speaker 3: The the one account of this full account of this
50:38
Speaker 3: is in a nineteen thirty six Saturday Evening Post article.
50:43
Speaker 4: I seem to recall then Peruggio.
50:46
Speaker 3: I apologize in nineteen thirty two.
50:48
Speaker 4: The names as being an art like a high art
50:52
Speaker 4: thief or something like there was a movie or something
50:55
Speaker 4: about it. But I'm wondering if there was some detail
50:59
Speaker 4: that was incorrect, right, that renders the whole thing?
51:03
Speaker 1: ALONSI, what is what is the name of the the thief? Again?
51:11
Speaker 3: It would be Marquis Eduardo de Valfiero.
51:16
Speaker 4: It was Perugio.
51:17
Speaker 3: Perugio was an accomplice, Vincenzo Perugia.
51:21
Speaker 4: Okay, that's the name that that that that rings a bell.
51:26
Speaker 1: You want to go for true?
51:27
Speaker 4: I want to go for true.
51:28
Speaker 1: All right, let's lock it in three two one true.
51:32
Speaker 3: Oh, I feel so guilty. This one's a tricky one.
51:36
Speaker 3: But uh no, it's false. It's actually false. You see,
51:39
Speaker 3: you're on You're onto something, Monsieur Boulet. You see, this
51:43
Speaker 3: story was in fact told in the Saturday Evening Post
51:46
Speaker 3: in nineteen thirty two. But Kyle Decker was an notorious
51:49
Speaker 3: fibber oh man, notorious, and there is absolutely no proof
51:55
Speaker 3: that this ever exists. None of these supposed six forgeries
51:59
Speaker 3: I've ever seen surfaced.
52:00
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
52:01
Speaker 3: The examination of the Mona Lisa at the Louver has
52:04
Speaker 3: shown that it is in fact the original Mona Lisa.
52:07
Speaker 3: In nineteen eleven, the Mona Lisa was not even a
52:09
Speaker 3: famous painting outside of France. No one knew about it. Yeah,
52:13
Speaker 3: but Perugia did steal the Marusia did steal the Mona
52:16
Speaker 3: Lisa in nineteen eleven with two Italian accomplices. They spent
52:20
Speaker 3: the night in a janitorial broom closet, woke up in
52:24
Speaker 3: the next morning, and then well didn't even wake up.
52:26
Speaker 3: They stayed awake the whole time, snuck out the next
52:28
Speaker 3: morning with the Mona Lisa. Perugia kept it, was afraid
52:33
Speaker 3: to try it, even fence it for almost two years.
52:35
Speaker 3: Finally get tried to do it in Florence, and the
52:39
Speaker 3: art dealer in Florence said, hang on, oh wow, alerted
52:43
Speaker 3: the authorities. Perugia was in fact arrested and tried for
52:48
Speaker 3: the crime and sent it to jail. You know how
52:50
Speaker 3: long a sentence was for stealing the Mona Lisa, one
52:53
Speaker 3: of the most famous paintings in all the world.
52:56
Speaker 1: Uh, more than a year?
52:58
Speaker 3: Eight months, eight months, eight months was all. The Monna
53:01
Speaker 3: Lisa was not very famous in nineteen eleven. And also
53:05
Speaker 3: there was another event that ended up superseding, eclipsing You
53:10
Speaker 3: might say this story, and that little event was the
53:12
Speaker 3: Great War right broke out in Europe and that no
53:15
Speaker 3: one really cared about an art thief at that point.
53:19
Speaker 3: But yes, this so the story was published. Carl Decker
53:24
Speaker 3: did write an article that made these claims, saying that
53:27
Speaker 3: he had met this Marquis Eduardo Valfierno back in nineteen fourteen.
53:33
Speaker 3: But there is no proof that such a man ever existed,
53:35
Speaker 3: no proof that any forgeries were ever made, And in fact,
53:39
Speaker 3: there are many parts of his story decker story that
53:43
Speaker 3: resemble an earlier story that was published in nineteen ten
53:46
Speaker 3: about another self styled nobleman, Count Dolby, who was known
53:51
Speaker 3: to self forgeries to American millionaires.
53:53
Speaker 1: You know what though, Okay, first off, thank you. That
53:56
Speaker 1: is an excellent explanation. But I am going to argue
54:01
Speaker 1: that this is a draw due to the complicated and
54:08
Speaker 1: unexplored territory that this question represents.
54:12
Speaker 3: It's funny because I'm the one who's in charge of
54:13
Speaker 3: the game I say I want. Besides which you said
54:17
Speaker 3: the last time that it was an easy one, so
54:20
Speaker 3: now on they're going to be really hard.
54:23
Speaker 4: You know it's me. Sorry, guys, you know what. I've
54:27
Speaker 4: kind of You've warned me down to the point where
54:29
Speaker 4: I just can't even get upset about this anymore. And
54:33
Speaker 4: I'm fine with I'm a glutton for punishment. Let's keep
54:35
Speaker 4: let's keep this rolling again.
54:36
Speaker 3: We'll make it fair. Next time I make one up,
54:39
Speaker 3: I will make one up. I will not take some
54:41
Speaker 3: other famous fraud and then present it as if it
54:45
Speaker 3: were true. Because you may remember, oh I remember hearing
54:49
Speaker 3: that story. It's right, I'll be more honest in my
54:55
Speaker 3: dis honesty.
54:57
Speaker 1: Great, well, you're a clever antagonist, for sure, and this
55:02
Speaker 1: would usually be a great casey on the case moment,
55:05
Speaker 1: but he will have to accuse himself because he is
55:08
Speaker 1: actually friends with all of us and may have a
55:10
Speaker 1: difficult time being impartial. However, we do want to thank
55:14
Speaker 1: you for coming on the show and helping us in
55:16
Speaker 1: our fellow Ridiculous Historians learn a little bit more about art.
55:20
Speaker 4: Heist and I hope to share length of this one
55:23
Speaker 4: made up for the last two shorties that we put
55:25
Speaker 4: out There we go.
55:26
Speaker 1: That's a good way to look at it. You are
55:29
Speaker 1: nailing these.
55:30
Speaker 4: In quality I make up for in quantity.
55:34
Speaker 1: So we want to thank everybody. Of course, thank you
55:37
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister. Thanks to Christopher hasiotis our
55:42
Speaker 1: researcher associate for today's episode.
55:44
Speaker 4: Thanks to super producer Casey Pegram Alex Williams, who composed
55:48
Speaker 4: our theme. Jonathan, I can take him our leave. And
55:51
Speaker 4: thanks to you Ben, thanks to you big, Thanks to you,
55:54
Speaker 4: Thank melc Buku oh Man.
55:57
Speaker 3: Is that all z.
56:00
Speaker 4: Whatever? And thanks to you folks listening public for for listening.
56:05
Speaker 1: Yeah. Find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, you can join
56:10
Speaker 1: our community page, which we're big fans of Ridiculous Historians.
56:14
Speaker 1: Jonathan drops by there as well on occasion. If you
56:17
Speaker 1: want to learn more about Jonathan when he is not
56:20
Speaker 1: in his alter ego. You can find him on tech
56:24
Speaker 1: Stuff and several other shows. Isn't that correct?
56:26
Speaker 3: Tech Stuff is a primary show, and I've got other
56:29
Speaker 3: ones coming up soon. And well you're trying to drink
56:32
Speaker 3: me bullin, we're still latch neboses.
56:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for the shout out. Oh yeah, of course,
56:39
Speaker 1: and that's it, nol. Do you want to go out
56:42
Speaker 1: and grift some people, like in a harmless fun way.
56:45
Speaker 4: Well, like steal candies from some babies or something.
56:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, just some Dennis the Menace type.
56:49
Speaker 4: Drifting victimless crimes.
56:51
Speaker 1: Yes.
56:51
Speaker 4: Sure.
56:58
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
57:01
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,