Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / NEW DETAILS: Gene Hackman, Wife, Dog Dead 9 Days Before Workers See Bodies Thru Window

Transcript

NEW DETAILS: Gene Hackman, Wife, Dog Dead 9 Days Before Workers See Bodies Thru Window · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: The beloved Oscar winning actor Gene Hackman and his devoted
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: wife Betsy Aracoa found dead and Hackman's home in the
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: last days. A huge twist in the Gene Hackman mystery
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: as police release his wife Betsy's cell phone data.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: being with us.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: New cell phone data calls into question when exactly Gene
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Hackman's wife Betsy died. The sound off a medical examiner
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: claimed to post mortem showed she died of hintovirus. That's
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: a rare rat born respiratory illness, probably caused by exposure to.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Wood mice around Feb eleven, a full week.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Before her Oscar winning husband, Gene Hackman died of heart
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: failure combined with Alzheimer's. But now and a bizarre twist,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: police confirm Betsy made multiple phone calls on Feb twelve,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: at least a full day after she was believed to
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: have died. What does that mean to the investigation. Let's
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: back it up and take it from the beginning to.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Get used to foul to a one person inside a house.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: But at this hour, according to law enforcement, the death
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: of Gene Hackman, his wife and dog.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Suspicious what happened to the oscar winner.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Let's go to that nine to one one call listening.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Hello, I've seen us found to a one decease person
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: at the house, but there's no address. I'm gonna wait
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: for you at the gate. I'm gonna wait for you
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: to please, and somebody's really quick? Are you with a patient?
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: Now?
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm over their property. There's no address here, so
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: I have to meet the denialist or the police whoever
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: down at the gatehouse. I'll bring them up here.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Curiously, hasn't a seed to say two dead bodies, but
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: that could be easily explained with an innocent explanation that
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: the viewer could only see part of the second dead body.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Let's listen to more a female.
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: And a male probably, I don't know. I don't know
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: if I's just send somebody up here real quick.
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: Okay?
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Are they awake? I have no idea?
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: Are they breathing? I have no idea.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: I'm not inside the house. It's closed. It's a lot.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: I go in, but I see the ladies laying down
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: on a blocker from the window. They appear to be
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: completely awake. Eactly do they appear to be awake or alerts? No? No, no, no,
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: no noise not.
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: Okay, okay do you ever hear do you hear this
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: talk or cry?
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: No? No, okay, okay?
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: Are they moving at all?
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: No, dude, they're not moving. Just sing somebody out here
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: really quick.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Dude, nine only one dispatchers ever bother you because the
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: call has already said they're two dead people, and the
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: nine only one dispatch says, do they appear to be
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: completely awake?
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Do they appear to be awake or alert? Did you
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: hear them talk or cry? Are they moving?
• 3:40
  Speaker 6: No?
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: They're dead.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: We are talking about an oscar winner, Gene Hagman, his.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Wife and their dog.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Now, how can that all be explained away innocently at
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: this hour? As we go to air law enforcement saving
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: the deaths are quote suspicious? Joining me Jessica Fancy, an
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: investigative reporter at the US Son.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Jessica, thank you for being with us. Let's just start
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: at the beginning.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: How the body of Gene Hackman and his wife and
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: his dog.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Were found.
• 4:11
  Speaker 7: Yeah, really wild scene in Santa Fe. You find the
• 4:16
  Speaker 7: maintenance worker calling nine one one, and he is very
• 4:20
  Speaker 7: frantic and What's something people don't realize was that there
• 4:22
  Speaker 7: were actually two different nine one one calls. The first one,
• 4:26
  Speaker 7: it's a dial to nine one one. The dispatcher picks
• 4:28
  Speaker 7: up and he says Hello, Hello, nine one one Hello,
• 4:31
  Speaker 7: and you hear the dog sparking the background. You hear
• 4:34
  Speaker 7: a man's voice talking, and it just is this very
• 4:36
  Speaker 7: chaotic scene. And then this guy hangs up the phone,
• 4:40
  Speaker 7: and then the nine one one dispatcher tries to call
• 4:42
  Speaker 7: him back again and tries to get the guy back
• 4:44
  Speaker 7: on the phone, and then there's a second phone call
• 4:46
  Speaker 7: to nine one one, So it just paints this really
• 4:49
  Speaker 7: really hectic picture of what's going on. You hear again
• 4:52
  Speaker 7: the two living dogs in the background, presumably the hackman's dogs,
• 4:57
  Speaker 7: and you hear this maintenance worker just very upset distressed.
• 5:00
  Speaker 7: He's trying to tell the nine on one dispatcher that
• 5:02
  Speaker 7: there are two dead people in the house, and nine
• 5:04
  Speaker 7: one one is asking the series of questions about are
• 5:08
  Speaker 7: they breathing like you said, are they talking? And it's
• 5:11
  Speaker 7: this really strange inquiry from the nine one dispatcher. And
• 5:15
  Speaker 7: one of the other interesting things that the maintenance worker
• 5:18
  Speaker 7: says is, you know, as we know The Hackmans were
• 5:21
  Speaker 7: very private people. There were no security cameras at the house.
• 5:25
  Speaker 7: They were extremely extremely private, and he says to the dispatcher,
• 5:28
  Speaker 7: there's not an address for the house, and there's a
• 5:30
  Speaker 7: reason for that, pointing to how private these two people
• 5:35
  Speaker 7: were and how much they protected their celebrity status and
• 5:38
  Speaker 7: really kind of wanted to make sure that people couldn't
• 5:41
  Speaker 7: track them down and kind.
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: Of were off the grid, so to speak.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: This is more of what we're learning from the sea.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: We're Oscar winner, Jane Hagman, wife and dog all found dead.
• 5:52
  Speaker 8: Listen deputies arrived and gain access to the residents, where
• 5:55
  Speaker 8: they observed missus Aracowa deceased. They continue the search of
• 5:59
  Speaker 8: their home and located mister Hackman in a separate area
• 6:03
  Speaker 8: of the residence, also deceased. A German shepherd was also
• 6:09
  Speaker 8: found deceased, and two other dogs who appeared healthy were
• 6:13
  Speaker 8: located on the property.
• 6:15
  Speaker 9: Responding officers find the front door in the glass entry
• 6:18
  Speaker 9: way of Hackman's two story, green colored stuck a home
• 6:21
  Speaker 9: opened a jar just a bit, but there did not
• 6:24
  Speaker 9: appear to be any signs of forced entry. The garage
• 6:27
  Speaker 9: connected to the three point eight million dollar home appeared
• 6:30
  Speaker 9: to be locked, and nothing appeared to be out of place.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: The garage locked, the door ajar, nothing stolen, nothing ransacked,
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: nothing rummaged through, no items taken, Everything appeared in place.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: What does it mean? I know at least.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: One expert has focused on the dog for good reason,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: joining me forensic expert, director and founder of the Cold
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Case Investigative Research Institute and star of its own seven podcasts,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: What about it?
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: I would focus on the dog because you're going to
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: see the pattern of what the Hackmans did. Did they
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: put the dog in the crate in the morning or
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: the evening? That would give you a timetable to start
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: from those patterns. Those habits are really important. The other
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: thing for me is if you talk about a net
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: cropcy for the dog or testing for the animal, that's
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: going to come back quicker than it will for the Hackmans.
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: We may not know for sure for months what may
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: or may not have happened to them, but with that
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: animal we would know much quicker. So my focus would
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: be on the habit. Why do you say that, Cheryl,
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: Because you're not going to have that many You're going
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: to have many more people that have to have an
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: autopsy than an animal that is killed in a situation
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: or died of natural causes or poison. So those tests
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: are going to be able to tell us much much
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: quicker what might have occurred in at home.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: So you were saying the reason we would get the
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: results back on the dog more quickly the German shepherd
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: is because there's no line. There's not a long line
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: of gerbils and hamsters and guinea pigs and birds and
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: cats and dogs waiting for an autopsy. Is that your
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: reason for saying that the dog autopsy will come back quicker?
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: Correct? Got it?
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Got it?
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Joining me to follow up on that is renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: opioid treatment expert, and author of American Narcan doctor William Moroney.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Doctor Moroney, thank you for being with us and taking
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: your time away from what you do every day for
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: all of us, Doctor Moroney. With the door ajar, would
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: that rule out carbon monoxide.
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: In any normal case? The answer is yes, because carbon
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: monoxide has to concentrate, can't concentrate with the door.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: OPENRONI, what would be found typically when bodies when someone
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: dies of carbon monoxide?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: And then I want to follow up with you with
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: the fact that.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Both Hackman and his wife were mummified to a degree.
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: But first, the carbon monoxide. Well, in carbon monoxide, the
• 9:18
  Speaker 5: skin is bright red. Now, that may be complicated because
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: they were mummified, but the appearance of the skin and
• 9:29
  Speaker 5: the color of the deceased is the take home point.
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: And the fire department does not enter a building without
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: running a carbon monoxide meter, so they would know that
• 9:42
  Speaker 5: because when they enter then they would have to use
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: a self contained breathing apparatus. So that's the carbon monote Well.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: You're going so fast out to maroney for regular lay
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: people like myself. First of all, why with the victim's face.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: The victim's face be red due to carbon monoxide poisoning,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: that's a sure fire giveaway.
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: But why because the chemistry of carbon monoxide versus the
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: chemistry of hemoglobin. It's how things work. Hemoglobin allows you
• 10:18
  Speaker 5: to transfer oxygen back and forth carbon monoxide. It's just
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: the color of blood with carbon monoxide in the skin.
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: It doesn't change. And the carbon monoxide molecule permanently sits
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: in the receptor site on the hemoglobin, whereas oxygen moves
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: on and off easily. It's always a red color because
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: that's the chemistry of carbon monoxide.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: A new cell phone data trail throws a rent into
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: the investigation to the death of Gene Hackman and his
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: beloved wife Betsy. She Betsy called Cloudberry Health, a local
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: concierg's medical practice, seeking medical treatment three times on February twelfth,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: well after the medical examiner says she was dead. A
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: fourth call was also made to Arakawa.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: From the clinic. We're learning this from the BBC.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: The clinic told BBC she never received the care she
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: was seeking, and we know she died. We also now
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: know Betsy communicated with a massage therapist on email, went
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: to the grocery store, a pharmacy, and a pet store.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: She made it back home around five point fifteen that day,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: and this is according to the family's garage clicker data. Yes,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: that has tracking data as well. We also have learned
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: that a doctor, doctor Josiah Child, claims that Betsy called
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: and described congestion. She didn't describe any respiratory distress, shortness
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: of breath, or chest pain, all symptoms of the hint
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: of virus. So we know now she did not die
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: on fab eleven because she called the clinic Feb.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Twelve interesting.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: She also called a couple of weeks before her death
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: about getting an echo an echo cardiogram heart scan for
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: her husband. What, if anything, does it mean to the investigation.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: We don't know now, but this is what we do know.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Listen.
• 12:18
  Speaker 9: Walking in the front door, officers see a bathroom to
• 12:21
  Speaker 9: the left of the front door, Betsy lying on her
• 12:24
  Speaker 9: right side dead. She is wearing dark gray sweatpants and
• 12:27
  Speaker 9: a light colored sweatshirt. Next to the body is a
• 12:30
  Speaker 9: black space heater near her head, but the report doesn't
• 12:33
  Speaker 9: say if it was on. An open orange prescription bottle
• 12:36
  Speaker 9: with pills scattered on the countertop. There are obvious signs
• 12:40
  Speaker 9: of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification
• 12:45
  Speaker 9: in both hands and feet. As deputies continued, they see
• 12:48
  Speaker 9: feet and legs near the kitchen area. Jeene Hackman is
• 12:51
  Speaker 9: found dead in the mudroom, wearing gray sweatpants, a blue
• 12:55
  Speaker 9: long sleeved t shirt, brown slippers, has a walking cane
• 12:58
  Speaker 9: and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman also showed obvious signs
• 13:02
  Speaker 9: of death too.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Jessica Fann joining US investigative reporter with the US Sun.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: We're both bodies partially mummified.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: And are we sure that door was a jar?
• 13:14
  Speaker 7: Yeah, so both both bodies were absolutely partially mummified. Really
• 13:18
  Speaker 7: gruesome scene that police ended up coming upon at the house.
• 13:22
  Speaker 7: At the residence, and you know, we from what we understand,
• 13:26
  Speaker 7: the back door was a jar. It seems like it
• 13:29
  Speaker 7: could have potentially police theorized been a jar to allow
• 13:34
  Speaker 7: the dogs to come in and out of the residence freely.
• 13:36
  Speaker 7: We don't know that for sure. There's different reports about
• 13:39
  Speaker 7: the front door. The maintenance worker initially says in his
• 13:43
  Speaker 7: nine one one call that the front door is locked.
• 13:45
  Speaker 7: When the police get there, the police say that the
• 13:47
  Speaker 7: front door was not locked. So we don't know exactly
• 13:51
  Speaker 7: the situation with the front door, but we do know
• 13:53
  Speaker 7: that the back door absolutely was not only unlocked, but
• 13:55
  Speaker 7: it was open and dogs seemed to be coming in
• 13:58
  Speaker 7: and out of the home freely.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Very very curious, And I'm going to follow up in
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: a moment with Cheryl McCollum regarding that door ajar. We've
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: seen that before when pets were involved. Okay, to doctor
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: William Maroney, A lot to break down right there, Doctor Moroney,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: First of all, mummification, what is it now we believe
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: and I'll get into this too. There's just so much,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: so many scientific evidence. Is what it's called in the
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: law regarding for instance, the pacemaker, how long had it
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: not been working? And what does that mean? There's a
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: lot to do with this pacemaker. What I'm getting at,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Maroney is a timeline. Can you talk to me about
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: what is mummification and how would that happen that quickly?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I mean I would expect if they had been dead
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: nine days as we are told based on a lot
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: of different times, circumstantial evidence, extrinsic evidence. I'm very surprised
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: their bodies aren't in decop as opposed.
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: To there's two words that lead us to understand mummification
• 15:07
  Speaker 5: New Mexico. This is totally different than a body dying
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: in Iowa, Connecticut or Wyoming. Bodies desiccate in these kind
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: of environments much faster.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: And is that do I have to tell you again?
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Doctr Moroney desicate?
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: I'll try to down.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I'll speak rhyme, thank you, yes, and I will take
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: that not in a bad way, dummy down for me.
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: It's look in any other environment. Mummification is a general
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: principle that follows nobody goes to the bloating, the bloating
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: around the face, the bloating around the center chest and
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: the torso. Limbs mummifi faster limbs don't usually bloat up
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: with gas. I see it all the time on scenes
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: mummification if somebody's been down a week. But New Mexico,
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: those are the key words. Is why this went through
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: mummification so fast. Air condition, outdoors, whatever the conditions are
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: New Mexico mummification. Drying is really a big part of this.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: So you're saying mummification what happened much more quickly in
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: New Mexico as opposed to let's just say Manhattan bingo. Yes,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: because of the dry air and the temperature. Correct correct, Okay,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: doctor moroney. How can there be bloating and mummification?
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: Okay, because the bloating comes from gas. There's gas. There's
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: bacteria in your body, in your bowels, in your stomach,
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: in your lungs. There's a normal, healthy group of bacteria
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: that lives in you. And as soon as you stop dying,
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: the life cycle of that bacteria is unopposed and it
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: gives off gas. Ordinarily, you swallow them and they pass
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: in your stool, you cough, you blow them out of
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: your nose. Bacteria is a very important part of the body,
• 17:14
  Speaker 5: and when the body no longer can cleanse itself or
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: reestablish fresh new young bacteria, old bacteria and decay cause
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: the body to bloat. These are very specific gases related
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: to decomposition. But the process of bloating is very very common.
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: It's just that you bloat and you dry in different
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: places at different times, and arms and legs are where
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: you mummify. First, nobody said anything about maggots. That's very
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: interesting because blowflies and maggots would allow you more time
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: to actually stage when they died. Nobody's talking about maggots.
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: That's very interesting. That says to me that the house
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: was sealed and it wasn't as open because flies come
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: in anywhere, and when they plant their eggs, they plant
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: them in the eyes, they plant them in the nose,
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: they plant them in the mouth, and they go to
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: other body parts like the rectum, and they multiply as maggots.
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: Nobody's talking about maggots. That's really important here too.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Doctor Maroney. I need to understand what you're saying.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: It is forensic etymology, the study of bugs, insects as
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: it relates to crime, specifically dead bodies.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: So let me understand, doctor Moroney.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: For maggots to appear on a dead body, that body
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: must be exposed in some way.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: To the outdoors. So the outdoor, the fly has.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: To come in, yes, to the residents, to get to
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: the body right right, okay, And even if there are
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: no flies in the area, as soon as the body
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: as someone dies.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: They come.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know that, I'm not an etymologist, but they
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: show up in all sorts of weather conditions.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: So you're saying, this is really interesting.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Many people believe that with a dead body magots just
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: originate from the body.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: That's not true. The fly has to the insect.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: The adult insect has to appear and then lay eggs,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: hence maggots. And you're saying, because there were none, that
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: door must not have been a jar the entire time.
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: Field. Yes, And I think it's it's key that they
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: don't talk about maggots. In any other case where anybody
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: dies outdoors, you always bring in a forensic entomologist and
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: the MAGGI help you apply a timeline. Maggots are on
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: the body the first hour it dies, outdoors. So if
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: you don't have any maggots at all, then there were
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: never any openings for windows or doors the whole time
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: this was going on, and the mummification comes from the
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: air conditioning.
• 20:19
  Speaker 9: Hagmann's daughter, Leslie tells reporters that she hadn't seen her
• 20:23
  Speaker 9: father or stepmother in a few months since she lives
• 20:26
  Speaker 9: in California. As far as talking to her dad, she
• 20:29
  Speaker 9: said it had also been a couple of months, but
• 20:32
  Speaker 9: she adds they were closed. She says everything seemed normal
• 20:35
  Speaker 9: and good. Her father was in good shape, doing pilates
• 20:39
  Speaker 9: and yoga multiple times a week.
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: For alert. I have no idea.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: I'm not inside the house. Its closed as long as
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: I can't go in. But I see that maybe she's
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: laying down a blow from the windows. Okay, I'll femail
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: and email probably, I don't know. I don't know if
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: hers been somebody up both.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: What do we know about the death of Gene Hackman,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: his wife and dog.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: At this hour, law enforcement still saying that the deaths
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: are suspicious, not ruling it accident, not ruling it suicide,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: and now we're learning carbon monoxide very unlikely. Of course,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: theories emerge actor Randy Quaid claims Gene Hackman and his
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: wife were murdered. Quaid shared his theory, calling on news
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: agencies to stop talking about the films.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: He is in.
• 21:29
  Speaker 9: This is how they get away with murdering famous people.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: To doctor Bethany Marshall joining me, a renounced psychoanalysts out
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: of the LA jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You can
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. You can
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: also see her on Peacock Now, doctor Bethany Now. Murder
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: theories are abounding, and part of that reason is because
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: we're not hearing it with suicide for obvious reasons.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: We're not hearing it was accident. But yet there was.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: No break in, no forced entry a parent, and we
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: can't find anything missing from the home. So naturally people
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: start thinking murder.
• 22:10
  Speaker 10: That's right, Nancy, But there's so many other things that
• 22:13
  Speaker 10: could have taken place. And what I would be mostly
• 22:15
  Speaker 10: concerned about, just from a behavioral perspective, is did this
• 22:20
  Speaker 10: couple have any negative large events looming.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: In their life, like a cancer.
• 22:26
  Speaker 10: Diagnosis, not able to pay a mortgage. I know that
• 22:28
  Speaker 10: sounds strange, but I would take that into account. Why
• 22:32
  Speaker 10: was there a two month break in talking to Jean
• 22:35
  Speaker 10: Kackman's daughter, because older couples are much more safe when
• 22:39
  Speaker 10: they are in contact with their families. Were their bills
• 22:42
  Speaker 10: that weren't paid? Was the door typically blocked open? Was
• 22:46
  Speaker 10: there a caregiver or somebody who came in and out
• 22:49
  Speaker 10: of a house. Was there an accountant who paid their bills?
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: How was their food prepared? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: At this hour regarding the deaths of Gene Hackman and
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: his devoted wife Betsy.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: At this hour, we.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Are learning that Hackman's family is also blocking autopsy results
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: for both the star actor and his wife. Reportedly, Hackman's
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: family seeking to block the autopsy reports, photos, and investigation
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: details regarding the actor and his wife. She was a
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: classical pianist, Betsy was now the move is highly unusual
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: to try and block autopsy reports, but it could be
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: because of the interest in his case. And they don't
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: want the photos from the death, including photos of their
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: dead bodies and more to be released to the public.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: And do you blame them, I don't. We don't know
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: where that is going to land. But this is what
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: we do know about the death.
• 24:01
  Speaker 8: From this search warrant. There were two green and color
• 24:05
  Speaker 8: cell phones, two bottles of medication, one bottle of over
• 24:11
  Speaker 8: the counter tilean on my request, medical records, and a
• 24:17
  Speaker 8: twenty twenty five monthly planner calendar. Mister Hackman and Miss
• 24:22
  Speaker 8: Arikawa were transported to the office of the Medical Investigator.
• 24:26
  Speaker 8: An autopsy was performed. Initial findings noted no external trauma
• 24:32
  Speaker 8: to either individual. The manner and cause of death has
• 24:35
  Speaker 8: not been determined. The official results of the autopsy and
• 24:39
  Speaker 8: toxicology reports are pending.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Is that correct, Jessica, No external trauma. That means no
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: gunshot wound, no stabbing, no obvious size of ligature or
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: manual strangulation, no bludgeoning.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Correct. Correct.
• 24:54
  Speaker 7: I mean, it's definitely a suspicious case and there's no
• 24:58
  Speaker 7: clear trauma to the bottom. What we do know is
• 25:01
  Speaker 7: that investigators found several types of pills, thyroid medication, blood
• 25:06
  Speaker 7: pressure medication, and over.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: The counter tile and all.
• 25:09
  Speaker 7: One of the things that's being reported right now from
• 25:12
  Speaker 7: the New York Times is that the pills that were
• 25:14
  Speaker 7: found near Betsy's body are still unidentified, so we don't
• 25:18
  Speaker 7: quite know why those pills that were scattered, what those
• 25:21
  Speaker 7: pills that were scattered on the countertop necessarily were and
• 25:25
  Speaker 7: we know that these two were found in separate rooms.
• 25:28
  Speaker 7: Gene appeared to have been found in what would be
• 25:32
  Speaker 7: the homes and mudroom with his cane nearby and his
• 25:36
  Speaker 7: sunglasses nearby, looking as if he had just simply fallen,
• 25:40
  Speaker 7: whereas she appeared to have possibly fallen and knocked over
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: a space heater on her way down in the bathroom.
• 25:47
  Speaker 7: But we just don't have the answers yet. We don't
• 25:49
  Speaker 7: understand why both of these people were found dead. And
• 25:53
  Speaker 7: definitely it appears that they were found they had passed
• 25:56
  Speaker 7: at least in the last couple of weeks, because people
• 25:59
  Speaker 7: had seen them three weeks ago in the neighborhood.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Doctor William Maroney, joining US renowned medical examiner lightning around this.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: Is a yes, no.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Can you die of a thyroid overdose? Thyroid medicine?
• 26:11
  Speaker 5: Not that fast? Yes, not that fast?
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, what about blood pressure mads? Can you die of
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: an od on blood pressure mads?
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: That blood pressure medicine specifically is known as a calcium
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: channel blocker. One of the things it does is it
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: slows the heart rate. If you took too much, it
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: would stop.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Your heart, but wouldn't that show up in the autopsy.
• 26:36
  Speaker 10: No.
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: Well, see the problem with the autopsy and things like
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: that is they have a predetermined panel of illegal drugs
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: they looked at. They might have to send out dilthiasm
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: toxicology to somebody else because for the same reason that
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: the animal toxicology and autopsies are done faster. I don't
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: know that any medical examiner can give you a fast
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: level of del taiasm levels. Diocetyl dltiism would be the metabolite,
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: and you'd look at both of them to see if
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: it was an acute like took a handful of and died,
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: or whether we were just taking too much. You've forgotten
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: it slowed your heart rate. It's a calcium channel.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Blocker that would require But Joshua Ritter joining me, a
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: high profile criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, star of
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, Joshua is not working. Everything he
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: just said, Ronnie is correct, But you would have to
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: assume that she the wife, Betsy decided to o date
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: on BP blood pressure appeals. Then he oded on blood
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: pressure peeals in a different area, fully closed, looking like
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: he was about to walk out the door, and the
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: dog they forest fed the dog blood pressure medication. It
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: doesn't fit this scenario, Josh rit Er, I understand why
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: the murder theories are taking root.
• 28:10
  Speaker 6: No, absolutely, none of it seems to add up because
• 28:13
  Speaker 6: you have two people who seem to have collapsed where
• 28:15
  Speaker 6: they stood. That's my biggest problem is it's not like
• 28:18
  Speaker 6: they were one of them was lying in bed or
• 28:21
  Speaker 6: sitting on a chair. They literally seem to have been
• 28:24
  Speaker 6: standing and then collapsed on the floor and were found
• 28:26
  Speaker 6: where they stood. And it seems I think it's safe
• 28:29
  Speaker 6: to assume in surmise that it happened close in time
• 28:32
  Speaker 6: to each other, because neither one of them called nine
• 28:34
  Speaker 6: to one one for assistance on the other person. So
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: you've got to assume you've now got two people who
• 28:39
  Speaker 6: collapse where they stood close in time to each other,
• 28:41
  Speaker 6: if not at the same time. To me, that's absolutely suspicious.
• 28:46
  Speaker 6: You have to look into that. I think you have
• 28:48
  Speaker 6: to do exactly what law enforcement is doing, getting sirch warrants,
• 28:52
  Speaker 6: starting to gather information, not jumping to any kind of conclusions,
• 28:57
  Speaker 6: because do these types of things happen and where two
• 29:00
  Speaker 6: people might collapse close in time to each other. I
• 29:03
  Speaker 6: I'm sure that they may have happened before in the past,
• 29:06
  Speaker 6: but to assume that that's exactly what happened here and
• 29:09
  Speaker 6: was either, like you said, natural causes or or some
• 29:12
  Speaker 6: sort of accident, I think would be a mistake at
• 29:14
  Speaker 6: this point in the investigation.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Hello, money, I think we just found to a one
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: defief person inside the house. But the year there's nobody dress.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna wait for you at the gate. I'm gonna
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: wait for you and somebody really are now yeah, I'm
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: their property. There's no address here, so I have to
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: meet the animalist or the police whoever down at the gatehouse.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: I'll bring them up here. I don't even know. You're like, no,
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: they're not moving.
• 29:58
  Speaker 11: Just bring somebody up here, And in less hours we
• 30:03
  Speaker 11: learn an obvious possible cause of death has been ruled out.
• 30:09
  Speaker 8: Both individuals tested negative for carbon monoxide. An initial interrogation
• 30:16
  Speaker 8: was conducted of mister Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his
• 30:21
  Speaker 8: nasty event was recorded on February seventeenth, twenty twenty five.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Doctor William Ronney, What does that mean his last event?
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: You mean, for instance, the last time the pacemaker was on, No.
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: The last time the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: heart was monitored by the pacemaker, and what that says
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: to me, once you die, the pacemaker continues to send spikes,
• 30:50
  Speaker 5: but heart no longer responds. There is no event that
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: the heart is responding to and they see when that is.
• 30:59
  Speaker 5: So that would be like the traditional All American heart
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: attack happened on that day and after that event, the
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: heart no longer was beating. That's the event he's talking about.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, Cheryl McCollum and joining US coll Case Investigative Research Institute. Cheryl,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: my first thought was carbon monoxide, but then when I
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: heard the door was a jar, in my mind, that
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: ruled out carbon monoxide.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: And the fact.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: That the dog is dead too, to me, that rules
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: out accident. Because you want me to think Gene Hackman
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: had an accident and died, then his wife had an
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: accident and died, and then the dog had an accident
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: and died.
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: No, agreed. So what we would do in this situation
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: is look at what is there and what's not there.
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: Some of the things that aren't there. There's no blood,
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: there's no weapon, there's no shellcasing, there's no sign of
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: a struggle. Nothing of value is missing. There's no note.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: Most importantly, there was not a nine one one call
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: that came from inside that residence for help. So whatever transpired,
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: it does seem happen very quickly. Again, it's going to
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: go back to patterns. You have two animals that were
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: not in a crate that survives. Why was the one
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: in the crate? People that are close to them may
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: be able to tell law enforcement. The German shepherd is
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: put in the crate. When mister Hackman goes for a walk.
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: He had sunglasses and.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: A cane and was dressed.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: Perhaps he was headed outside when either he fail or
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: whatever occurred happened. But that's the kind of thing you're
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: going to run into is two almost parallel investigations. You're
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: going to look at what happened to mister Hackman and
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: what happened to his wife, and you would almost do
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: two separate investigations.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: There, you're absolutely correct, two separate investigations, and where you're learning,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: according to law enforcement, that they can't determine who died first,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: which could be critical into solving the mystery of Jane
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Hackman's death.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Listen, that's a very hard.
• 33:05
  Speaker 8: Thing to determine, even with the assistance of Omi We
• 33:09
  Speaker 8: asked that question because that's a question that we want answered.
• 33:12
  Speaker 8: That's a very hard determination to make, and I don't
• 33:16
  Speaker 8: think even Omi could make that determination based on the
• 33:18
  Speaker 8: initial autopsy.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: What about it, doctor Moroni? Determining who died first, It's impossible.
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: You know what time he died, You don't have a
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: timeline for when she died and how it happened two
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: separate investigations. Then you can't determine who was first unless
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: there was security cameras, and there's no security cameras.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Well, wait a minute, hold on, Dr Morony.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Isn't it true if one of them died substantially significantly
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: before the other, the degree of decomposition would be different.
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: It would have to be a good full half day
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: or full day before. You can't really tell a couple hours,
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: but if it was like a full half day before.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, also in the Last Days,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: we are learning that Gene Hackman made a huge mistake
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: before his shock death, as a major battle over his
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: eighty million dollar estate looms. What was the mistake? He
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: had a living trust at the time of his death
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: at ninety five, but all the people he listed as
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: successor trustees were already dead before he passed. Now, according
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: to documents we have learned about, a representative of Hackman's
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: estate fought a petition requesting a new temporary success or
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: trustee be appointed.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: That means Gene Hackman's estate is in flux.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Right now, we are also learning the fate of Hackmans
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: and Betsy's surviving dogs. They love them and treated them
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: like children. We know seven year old German shepherd Bear
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: and Nikita have lost each other's companionship. They have been
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: split up, but they are placed in loving, welcoming homes
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: after enduring weeks of hell in the house where their
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: beloved mom and dad, Jane and Betsy passed away.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Where were the other two dogs? Do we know?
• 35:33
  Speaker 7: You know? From the nine to one one calls, we
• 35:35
  Speaker 7: hear the dogs barking in the background. We're, of course
• 35:37
  Speaker 7: assuming that those were the Hackman's dogs. We don't know
• 35:41
  Speaker 7: where they were found. But the way the nine on
• 35:43
  Speaker 7: one calls play out, it sounds like they're just kind
• 35:45
  Speaker 7: of roaming around on the property. It doesn't seem like
• 35:48
  Speaker 7: they're inside anywhere. It just seems like they're kind of
• 35:51
  Speaker 7: like free wheeling outside. From just from the way the
• 35:54
  Speaker 7: ninemal one calls are the way that echoing of the
• 35:57
  Speaker 7: dogs barking in the background can be heard.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: The Santa Fe County share of Adam Mendoza stating he's
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: trying to create a reverse timeline again.
• 36:08
  Speaker 8: That'll be part of our investigation. We will look and
• 36:12
  Speaker 8: try to gain access to the cell phones. We'll be
• 36:15
  Speaker 8: analyzing cell phone data, phone calls, text messages, events, photos
• 36:20
  Speaker 8: in the cell phone to try to piece a timeline together.
• 36:23
  Speaker 8: One of the things is in an investigation is we
• 36:25
  Speaker 8: try a piece of timeline together, usually before the event happens,
• 36:29
  Speaker 8: and that gives us a lot of information. But in
• 36:31
  Speaker 8: this case, it seems like we're doing a reverse timeline.
• 36:34
  Speaker 8: We're doing a timeline from the time of death and
• 36:36
  Speaker 8: the autopsy and the results, and we're going to start
• 36:38
  Speaker 8: working our way backwards. We're going to do both and
• 36:41
  Speaker 8: then hopefully make a determination what may have happened to
• 36:45
  Speaker 8: both the individuals.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, a reverse timeline based on digital what does that mean?
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Looking at cell phone data, computer data? Who were they
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: speaking to when? What were they looking up on Google?
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: When's the last time they logged in or made a
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: phone call? Not only that, when it was the last
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: time people call them and they didn't pick up.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: There's more to it, Cheryl McCollum. Think back, Dare I
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: bring his name up?
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Conjure him? Alex Murdog. The digital data in that case
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: was overwhelming. As a matter of fact, I believe that's
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: how the state finally proved Murdog guilty of double murder
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: and the deaths of his wife Maggie and son Paul.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: The cell phone data compared with the geopositioning and the
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: NAV system in his suburban really nailed his coffin. So
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: what do you make of the fact that they're making
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: a reverse timeline, Cheryl?
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: And also they have seized pursuit to Warren.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Of course their daytime planners. What does that tell you
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: they're looking at.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: So they're going to take that planner and they're going
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: to cross check it with what was looked at on
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: the phone, dates, calls, appointment, any future event they had
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: that the person that actually found them was somebody owned
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: the property doing work that would be in their planner.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: So they're going to look at all that to make
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: sure everything lines up and coincides with what they know
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: the Hackmans were doing the weeks before in what they
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: had planned week after.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, Josh Ritter, you and I've tried on
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: different sides of the fence, of course, many many homicide cases,
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: and I look at planners to determine did they have
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: plans in the future. In other words, when people have
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: plans in the future, they don't usually commit suicide. If
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: they're looking forward to something like my twins' spring break.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to that.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's just an example.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: But also for forensic reasons, for proative reasons, you look
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: to see who's the last person there the day that
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: his pacemaker stopped working, what were they doing, who was
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: in the home, what was happening. That's why they're looking
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: at the planner.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Josh.
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: Absolutely, they're trying to reconstruct the events leading up to it.
• 39:03
  Speaker 6: And to your point too, are there events, are their
• 39:07
  Speaker 6: appointments in the future, and if so, does that show
• 39:11
  Speaker 6: planning for the future which you might be able to
• 39:13
  Speaker 6: roll that suicide? But did they miss appointments that no
• 39:16
  Speaker 6: one noticed? And should those people have noticed? Do they
• 39:19
  Speaker 6: have an appointment with someone and that person they didn't
• 39:22
  Speaker 6: meet that appointment with that person, and that person didn't
• 39:24
  Speaker 6: alert anyone or didn't seem bothered by the fact that
• 39:28
  Speaker 6: they missed this event. So I think the planner can
• 39:33
  Speaker 6: be a treasure tros of information as far as they're
• 39:36
  Speaker 6: not only there mundane day to day life, but also
• 39:39
  Speaker 6: the events that they had planned before and after and
• 39:42
  Speaker 6: what that might provide some insight into this investigation.
• 39:46
  Speaker 8: So, you know, I respect the mister Hackman's and miss
• 39:51
  Speaker 8: ourcau was regard for privacy. I think everybody here understands
• 39:54
  Speaker 8: that they were very private individuals and a very private family.
• 39:58
  Speaker 8: There is no surveyance as we right now in the
• 40:02
  Speaker 8: interior of the residence or the exterior of the residents
• 40:04
  Speaker 8: that it's going to help us determine our time nine
• 40:06
  Speaker 8: or events that happened.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: That was Santa Fe County Sheriff speaking aid in Mendoza.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: What does that mean to be no surveillance, no surveillance,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: And let me clarify that, Cheryl McCollum, there's no home
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: surveillance in the home of a multi time.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Oscar winner Rick, no surveillance.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Hence the theories of murder and or suicide are abounding.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: To Jessica Finn, carbon monoxide and I've got a huge
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: list of celebs and others that die of carbon monoxide
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: has been ruled out. The levels tested in the autosy
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: prove it wasn't CM. That was everyone's first thought. That's
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: been put to bed. No one sees suicide either. It's
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: just doesn't make sense that they would both commit suicide
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: in different rooms with no suicide note, falling like that
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: look appearing as if they had fallen. I mean, hold on,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: doctor William Roney, the method and assessment of suicide is
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: not consistent with the way these bodies were found.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: No suicide usually means there's some kind of preparation. It
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: doesn't always mean a note, but it means somebody's taken
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: time to send a message and organize clothes, pills. They
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: look nice. There's text messages and other communications would give
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: you a clue that suicide is a possibility, and that
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: usually follows treatment resistment depression. That we don't have any
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: sign that these people have major depressive disorders, not at all.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Jessica Finn, the US son.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: The daughter says that her dad was actually doing great,
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: doing polles and yoga multiple times a week. They were
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: going out to dinner with France. Nothing suggests to suicide.
• 42:07
  Speaker 7: Yeah, Jean and his wife really took care of their health.
• 42:10
  Speaker 7: They were really active in the community. She made sure
• 42:13
  Speaker 7: that he was in top, top notch shape. He was
• 42:16
  Speaker 7: doing ploates, like you.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Said, staying fit.
• 42:21
  Speaker 7: The whole investigation gives us more questions than there are answers.
• 42:25
  Speaker 7: I mean, for both of these people to have died
• 42:27
  Speaker 7: and they looked like they dropped where they were standing
• 42:29
  Speaker 7: in two separate places in the home. You know, we
• 42:32
  Speaker 7: can't figure out whether this was what kind of foul
• 42:35
  Speaker 7: play that the police are investigating at this moment. But yeah,
• 42:39
  Speaker 7: it certainly is a conundrum. It doesn't seem like these
• 42:42
  Speaker 7: people were in distress together and they were very much
• 42:45
  Speaker 7: in love from what we've heard.
• 42:47
  Speaker 8: No, I don't think, you know, there was any indication
• 42:50
  Speaker 8: that that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body.
• 42:53
  Speaker 8: I'm assuming if they would have fell or you know,
• 42:56
  Speaker 8: injured themselves or head injury or brain injury, that would
• 42:59
  Speaker 8: have been discovered that pathologist. So I'm going to say
• 43:01
  Speaker 8: that they.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: Work so too, Doctor Bethany Marshall. There's no indication this
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: was an accident, and you just heard the Santa Fe
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: sheriff say that, and plus if one had an accident,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: what the other has an accident and the dog has
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: an accident.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: That that doesn't make sense.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: We're not getting that the dog starved, nothing like that.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: So the sheriff is saying, no accident, there's no carbon monoxide.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Let's deal with suicide, because I don't see suicide either.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I don't see suicide either.
• 43:31
  Speaker 10: And that's why I asked earlier, was that there's some catastrophe,
• 43:35
  Speaker 10: a catastrophic event looming in their lives which would would
• 43:38
  Speaker 10: make them want not want to live. You know, Nancy,
• 43:41
  Speaker 10: there's an untold story here that I'm very curious about,
• 43:44
  Speaker 10: and that is, even though he was well and doing
• 43:47
  Speaker 10: pilates and taking walks, had she become his caregiver. I
• 43:52
  Speaker 10: do to treat couples in my practice where one partner
• 43:54
  Speaker 10: is ill and the other one is the caregiver, and
• 43:57
  Speaker 10: especially when it's a family member, they typically refuse respite care,
• 44:01
  Speaker 10: meaning they don't want other people to come and help.
• 44:03
  Speaker 10: They want to provide the primary care because they love
• 44:07
  Speaker 10: their family member and the caregiver's health typically breaks down
• 44:12
  Speaker 10: over time. In fact, statistically, we know that there's a
• 44:15
  Speaker 10: greater likelihood of a caregiver dying we maturely when they
• 44:20
  Speaker 10: are taking care of a family member. So had her
• 44:22
  Speaker 10: health been breaking down, and in that case, doctor's records
• 44:26
  Speaker 10: and also looking at that day planner and seeing how
• 44:28
  Speaker 10: many appointments was she going to, how many appointments was
• 44:31
  Speaker 10: she taking him.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: An Dr Beth and they everything you're saying is correct. However,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: friends that just just went out with them say that
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: they were happy, healthy, doing really well, giving no sign
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: that his wife, Betsy was.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: On the decline. As a matter of fact, she had
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: devoted herself to him.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: I'm just not seeing suicide, So, doctor William Maroney, there
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: are only so many CODs cause of death. You've got
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: suicide ruled out, there's no trauma, there's no OD. You've
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: got carbon monoxide ruled out here, the sheriff ruling out accident.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: All this left is what murder, homicide and unexplained.
• 45:17
  Speaker 5: Yes, number one homicide, number two, accident, number three natural,
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: number four suicide, and number five would be indetermined. That's
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: our five pauses.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,