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Megan Bissell on why the Future of Faith is Listening · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
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podcast, we talk to pastors,
0:18
authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
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faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a
0:30
passionate member of your faith community, this podcast
0:33
is designed to challenge, inspire, and
0:35
equip you with the tools you need for impactful
0:38
ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for
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this episode.
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>> Megan: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Junior welcomes Megan Bissell
0:49
to the show. Megan is the co founder
0:52
of Future of Faith and an applied
0:55
sociologist and researcher who
0:57
specializes in the lives of young people,
0:59
relationships, and group dynamics.
1:02
She has spent her career turning research into
1:05
actionable insights that people can use to
1:08
make a, uh, meaningful impact. She has
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extensive experience in leading research,
1:13
facilitating workshops and educational
1:16
programs, and consulting with
1:18
organizations who want to enhance their relational
1:21
and organizational dynamics. Megan
1:24
was previously head of research for both the
1:27
Social research lab at the University of
1:30
Northern Colorado and then at
1:33
AH Springtide Research Institute.
1:36
She served as the vice president for research
1:39
at the National Catholic Educational
1:41
Association. Megan
1:44
lives in Greeley, Colorado, with her family of
1:47
creatives, where she has no choice but to be
1:50
inspired by those around her.
1:53
One housekeeping detail before our conversation
1:56
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2:23
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. I'm here with Megan Bissell,
2:26
and we're recording live and in person from the
2:29
High Plains Library in Fort Leptin,
2:32
Colorado. Pretty cool place. This, uh, is a nice,
2:35
nice place. If you're watching on video, we have a cool little
2:37
room we're recording in. Uh, but anyway, thanks
2:40
for. Thanks for being here. Thanks for meeting me. We met
2:43
kind of halfway in the middle between where we both live. Looking forward to
2:46
having this conversation. Let's just start out with the main stuff.
2:49
Tell us a little bit about yourself, your story,
2:52
your faith journey, all that.
2:54
>> Megan: Yeah. So, um, my story is that I'm
2:57
originally from the Chicagoland area.
3:00
I grew up Catholic, um, in
3:03
a very small town, catholic, um,
3:06
church, um, that I've actually
3:08
reconnected with people from that
3:11
diocese recently, which is really weird because it was new
3:14
Lenox, Illinois. Um, but I was, you
3:17
know, it was really traditional catholic upbringing,
3:19
but, um, my parents made all the
3:22
difference with that because they were actually youth leaders for the
3:25
catholic church. Um, my dad taught
3:28
confirmation classes because,
3:30
um, he loves middle schoolers, uh, which
3:33
I then adopted that same insanity. Middle
3:36
school. Yes, it's my group.
3:38
>> Loren: Yes.
3:38
>> Megan: Um, and they were just really
3:41
involved in the youth and teen part of it. So
3:44
that was my main experience with
3:47
Christianity. Fully understand the
3:49
difference between, um, what it meant to be Catholic.
3:53
You know, back then, it was like, you go to church,
3:55
you do the youth group, you know, that's what it meant
3:58
to be in church. Um, and then, you
4:01
know, I really didn't, I really didn't stick with it. The
4:04
youth group was really impactful. I still am friends with those
4:07
people, um, that we had, it
4:10
was, you know, big questions and,
4:13
um, the thing I remember the most were the, you know, my parents
4:15
weren't afraid to just allow
4:18
questions to happen, and I didn't experience
4:21
that anywhere else in the church experience.
4:24
It was pretty specific to them, just allowing us to
4:27
be curious and enjoy it and have questions and not
4:30
have all the answers. Um, so that was my original
4:33
experience of being Christian. Ah, fast
4:36
forward. Through all of my adolescence, my husband and
4:39
I moved to Colorado and we
4:43
happened upon a church that I
4:45
think had baptist roots. But we're not really sure because it didn't have a
4:48
lot of. They, um, didn't talk about denomination much.
4:51
It was real super artsy and, you know,
4:54
as teachers and college kids and artists.
4:57
And, um, it was really about the community.
5:00
Like, it went from, you know, a
5:03
structured catholic upbringing to this place of just loving
5:05
people. And that is then how I
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have really shaped and formed my christian
5:11
experience.
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>> Loren: Awesome, awesome. Thanks for sharing that.
5:13
>> Megan: Yeah.
5:14
>> Loren: What are some spiritual practices or spiritual disciplines you do
5:17
that are meaningful for you?
5:18
>> Megan: Oh, I'm terrible at this, actually. Um,
5:21
consistency is a real thing, but I really find
5:24
that I will look for moments of
5:27
peace where I feel like I'm just having a conversation with
5:30
God. Um,
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I consider that a practice because it's a very intentional,
5:35
like, oh, I'm quiet and
5:38
it's not, I guess, a form of prayer. Right. But
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it's really, it's ritualistic in that anytime I find
5:44
myself in this particular kind of peace, I'm just having a conversation
5:47
with Goddesse. Um, I do, you
5:50
know, we have basic
5:53
prayer rituals and things like that, but no
5:56
real solid practices. We're open to trying new
5:58
things and exploring and seeing what kind of things stick.
6:01
>> Loren: Yeah.
6:02
>> Megan: How about you? I want to know about your practices.
6:04
>> Loren: Well, something that I've been trying to do of late is just
6:07
like. I, uh, mean, I did this last night when
6:09
I'm. It helps me really, like, as I
6:12
think about the next day is think, like, what is one thing I was grateful
6:15
for that day and one thing I'm looking forward
6:18
to, like, the next day.
6:21
So awesome. I just. I feel
6:24
like it helps me go sleep.
6:28
Yeah. So, um,
6:31
I've really tried to be more
6:33
into prayer.
6:35
>> Megan: Mhm.
6:36
>> Loren: Of late. So, like, being that I'm not in, like,
6:39
full time ministry right now, one thing that I try to
6:42
do on Sunday mornings is just say a quick prayer for, like,
6:45
the pastors I know who are in ministry or will
6:47
be preaching. So, obviously, as we're recording this, it's
6:50
what, July 19? So, obviously, like,
6:53
last Saturday, Sunday, I was praying for
6:56
my clergy friends.
6:59
>> Megan: Yeah.
7:00
>> Loren: Thinking about them and their messages. They're gonna have
7:03
to preach in light of the, uh, events with
7:06
Trump.
7:07
>> Megan: Indeed, indeed.
7:08
>> Loren: But, uh, yeah, so that's something that I've been
7:11
trying to. So to work on of late.
7:13
>> Megan: I love that. I've been finding
7:17
kind, um, of like a lectio divina
7:19
style with poetry. Like little short
7:22
poems, like Rupi Kapoor or Ross gay.
7:25
They'll just read a little poem, and then you find
7:27
something spiritual in that. And
7:30
that's been not. And I don't do it consistently, but I do find
7:33
myself doing it a lot more. Like, I'm looking for that connection
7:36
to words and a message and things like that.
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So I really appreciate that.
7:40
>> Loren: This leads me into something we may or may not talk
7:43
about here. But I noticed
7:46
this as I was like. And it kind of
7:49
came up in what conversation?
7:52
Uh, hopefully, an episode that will air before is with
7:55
Rebecca Simon Peter, who's a Methodist based
7:58
church consultant. But we're talking about, I
8:00
think, the importance of religion.
8:03
And I imagine you as sociology work. Talk
8:06
about this a lot. But I was thinking about this
8:09
Sunday as I was in church myself, thinking,
8:11
like, singing these songs. I didn't really feel
8:14
like singing,
8:17
um, like, how much, like, the. It's
8:19
like, to me, I think about it like a discipline or like a,
8:22
ah, going through the motions. It sounds
8:24
terrible, but going through those motions
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kind of like, gets you in that.
8:30
I don't want to say mood or spirit or kind of like.
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Like, I wouldn't just, like, jump up, be like, oh, I want to
8:35
sing praises to Jesus because I'm. I'm
8:38
grumpy today.
8:41
Um, but doing
8:44
that motion gets me into, like,
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okay, I can do this.
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>> Megan: Yeah, actually, we're going to talk about this later, but we do
8:51
this in our sacred listening tools, future of faith,
8:54
that's one of the very first things we do is that
8:57
intention setting, because it sets a tone. It's a
8:59
signal to your practice, to your
9:02
brain, to set the tone and the energy for the
9:05
space, which is exactly what you would do with a song.
9:08
Yeah, sometimes it's just you need those words to connect to that
9:11
moment. So it's our intention setting part.
9:13
>> Loren: Yeah, this is good. Let's keep going. So
9:16
let's talk about your work. Um,
9:19
Megan, what's your title?
9:22
>> Megan: So, um, I am the co founder and
9:25
executive director of future of Faith. My
9:28
co founder is doctor Josh Packard, who has been on
9:31
this show before, and folks know him in the space.
9:34
He and I have worked together for over a decade
9:37
now, and, um, in various capacities.
9:40
And, um,
9:43
the executive director. Part of my title is that we
9:46
turned future of faith into a nonprofit.
9:49
And so somebody had to do that operation stuff,
9:51
and that's where I come in. He's the face, the one
9:54
that stands on the stage, and you're doing the real thing.
9:58
I would not say that I think he's got it harder,
10:01
but, um, the two of us together, um,
10:04
have done, you know, this kind of work
10:06
for a long time, um, and decided
10:09
to shape it into something really, really kind of niche
10:12
and based on all the things that we've done together for the last ten years.
10:15
So, um, future of faith is
10:18
the culmination, like, the
10:21
next step of the work that we've done, uh, over the last
10:24
decade. Um, we're both sociologists and researchers. He's
10:27
a sociologist in religion. I study group
10:30
dynamics and social interactions and organizations.
10:33
Uh, um, so the two of us together kind of have that, um,
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we were the,
10:38
um, we were the
10:41
originating staff of Springtag Research Institute, which
10:43
studies the lives of young people, ages 13 and 25. He was the executive
10:46
director, I was the head of research. And there we were, we
10:49
were collecting the largest data set about young
10:52
people and religion in the country,
10:55
and we were moving into this place of.
10:59
It was useful. We would never do anything
11:02
that wasn't useful. Um,
11:04
but we needed to take it a step further and really
11:07
make it something that people could use in their local
11:10
context. And so he and I were already talking
11:13
about moving into this place of,
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um, what would it mean to have information that's hyper
11:18
local and relationship based so that you
11:21
can respond to your direct contacts? Like, it's great to know
11:24
what's happening with young people in the larger context in the
11:27
world? Of course, we always need that. There's loads of
11:30
data about that. But what would it mean to take
11:33
these skills of information gathering and pattern
11:36
recognition and like give it to a minister so he can use
11:39
that in his local context? So future of faith
11:42
is the result of that. That's the, uh,
11:44
dream work. Like, we got to this place of how do we use
11:47
sociology? How do we help folks
11:50
use sociology in a way that's accessible?
11:53
Um, so yeah, we create,
11:56
um, listening tools.
11:59
So our listening tool, sacred listening
12:01
tools, are both a
12:04
theory and a process that we
12:07
use to help people do sociology in their local context. And
12:10
we can explain. I can explain more about that.
12:13
>> Loren: Let's start with some of what you
12:15
learned from springtide, from your work there with
12:18
research and young people. Uh, shout out here to
12:21
my canadian co host,
12:24
Martha. Shout out Martha here. She'll pronounce it this
12:27
way. Like when we think about the nuns, we think about Gen
12:30
Z. That's Martha, canadian, non american.
12:33
Shout out there. I guess they all say it Gen Z Zed, not
12:36
Gen Z. So let's talk about the
12:39
challenges with that Gen
12:41
Z, you know, whether it be the
12:44
nuns, not so much the duns, but certainly that younger
12:47
generation. What are like, we seeing,
12:50
broadly speaking, in church attendance
12:53
and participation or lack thereof.
12:54
>> Megan: Yeah, um, I mean, if
12:57
you're in ministry at all, you feel the
13:00
challenges that are happening. Um, and those are confirmed,
13:03
you know, like the nuns. The nuns have been growing for a long time.
13:06
They've kind of leveled out. You know, there's
13:09
not a continual uptick of people
13:11
declaring themselves as nuns, but that is basically like
13:15
they don't have a religious affiliation or they don't claim a
13:17
religious affiliation. But what we're finding is
13:20
that doesn't mean they don't have faith, it just means that they're
13:23
not directly affiliated with something. Um,
13:26
so that's a challenge in and of itself. Like, they don't want to directly
13:28
affiliate, but the reason for that is that they don't
13:31
trust institutions the same way that they used
13:34
to. When I was growing up, I just explained my,
13:36
like, you just did it, right. There is no more,
13:40
you just did it. Um, they don't trust
13:42
institutions in the way that makes them connect or feel like they belong
13:45
to something, and so they find something else in that faith world that they
13:48
deem belong to. Um, Gen
13:51
Z is one of the most
13:53
diverse populations of young people.
13:56
It is the most diverse population of young people we've ever
13:59
seen. And so you can't treat it like a monolith. So like
14:02
building up institutions to respond to the diversity
14:05
of this generation, it doesn't work. You need to
14:08
be able to, um, speak to their experiences and find
14:11
other ways to connect to them in order for it to make a difference.
14:14
That's the biggest, that's the biggest challenge.
14:17
Um, as far as attendance
14:20
goes, I think. I think it's the wrong conversation,
14:22
right? I mean, attendance matters. It's always going
14:25
to matter to have to the institution.
14:28
But the conversation we really need to be having is, how do we connect with
14:31
the people to make them feel like they'll belong to the
14:34
institution, not how do we change the institution to, how do we change
14:37
the institution to help the young people?
14:39
>> Loren: Let's stay on that, because I'm
14:42
thinking about a church that I'm doing pulpit supply
14:45
for, and
14:47
that's a challenge that they're facing, is
14:50
like, how do we.
14:53
They're grieving. Why can't we get young people to participate? So it's
14:56
very much that question that them and many churches
14:59
are facing or wrestling with is how
15:02
do we get people to participate in the institution?
15:05
Certainly that's how the institution has been structured. The,
15:08
the metrics have been incentivized
15:11
is getting people to participate
15:14
in the institution. So
15:18
let's talk about why, or I guess you kind of said
15:21
why America needs,
15:24
American Christianity needs a shift in thinking.
15:27
Um, talk more about what you said there,
15:29
about that shift in the
15:32
reversal of, rather than
15:35
forcing the institution or people
15:38
to conform to the institution, trying to get people more conf.
15:41
Or the institution more to confirm conform to what people
15:44
are needing.
15:45
>> Megan: We know we need institutions. That's not a
15:47
secret. Um, but we used to be able to rely on them
15:50
for everything. Like, you knew where to find young people because they were
15:53
just in the institution. Um,
15:56
but with that declining trust and then declining
15:59
trust and authority,
16:02
um, you can't just assume that they're going to show up
16:04
and changing the
16:07
narrative around. Like, why
16:10
can't we get them to show up? Why are they not coming in the
16:13
doors? Um, the flip
16:16
of that is that we need to start focusing
16:18
on relationships.
16:21
So the way that we get. If you think
16:24
about how you even attach to an
16:26
institution now, it's a person first.
16:29
>> Loren: I mean, it is.
16:30
>> Megan: You're not walking through the door of some, you
16:33
know, unknown institution of being like, this is where I
16:36
belong. Um, because it's. Because it
16:39
represents a thing instead. You know, you're
16:41
walking through the door because you had coffee with
16:44
somebody that cared about your life for a moment. Now,
16:47
again, this is why future of faith was built, because that sounds
16:50
daunting it's like, how do you do that at
16:53
scale? How do you, you know, you can't have
16:56
coffee and know the life of every single person in your that
16:59
you're trying to draw into the institution.
17:02
Um, and we can get to that. Yeah,
17:05
Mike.
17:05
>> Loren: Well, don't tease it out too soon.
17:08
>> Megan: Um, but I think the
17:10
adjustment in thinking about
17:14
relationships come first. And how do we do
17:17
relationships in order, then. And then once they're in the institution,
17:20
then you can start, then
17:22
you can teach them, then you can help them understand, and you can have
17:25
conversations, you can develop further relationships. But, uh, it
17:28
has to start with that connection piece first.
17:32
>> Loren: I mean, I appreciate for sure two things you said there, like, not
17:35
being anti institutionalist. I think. I feel like
17:39
this is a broad brush, but I feel like real sociologists are, like,
17:42
recognize the value of institutions. Y'all are not just
17:45
like, you know, pure
17:46
deconstructionists. Um, two, I think
17:49
it's interesting, like, what you said there, about
17:52
the relationship, because I'm thinking about how.
17:55
How that relationship can be formed. And correct me if
17:58
I'm wrong here, but I'm thinking, like, that relationship could be formed on
18:01
social media. Like, seeing clips of
18:04
a pastor or somebody at the church
18:07
can build a relationship. Maybe not the best
18:10
way that could be. Yes. Good.
18:11
>> Megan: Uh, to start, for sure.
18:13
>> Loren: I think even in mainline or progressive
18:16
church circles, there's this idea. If we can
18:18
just. This is going to sound harsh, but
18:21
run up the rainbow flag, people are just going to start running in
18:24
our.
18:24
>> Megan: Door,
18:27
which is only partially true. The rainbow
18:30
flag helps feel as though there is a connection, but they're still
18:33
not going. Like, unless there's a gateway
18:36
in, uh. They're not just going to rush into your
18:38
institution. Yeah. Focusing on, you know,
18:41
you can't just keep. Especially this
18:44
generation, they don't respond to
18:47
institutions the same way. So you just. You have to be able to find
18:50
another connection.
18:51
>> Loren: So, in Josh's book I was seeing on your
18:54
website, he writes that faith is a conversation.
18:57
And I was intrigued by that verbiage.
18:59
Yeah, talk more. What y'all.
19:01
>> Megan: So he wrote the book.
19:02
>> Loren: Yeah.
19:03
>> Megan: I can't speak to what was in his head, but
19:06
I know that for me, um, faith is a
19:08
conversation, because, I mean, faith is inherently
19:13
believing, um, in something that you don't have proof
19:16
for. Right. So, you know, it's. It's always
19:18
been a conversation. It's a way
19:21
to, um, lead with questions instead
19:24
of certainty, um, which leaves the door open
19:27
for the ability to
19:31
find out if there's a different way of thinking about
19:33
something. And instead of
19:36
having firm
19:39
truths and having the answer, it's about questions
19:42
instead of answers. Um, so. And
19:45
especially this generation that questions everything,
19:48
you know, they're more inclined to be interested in a
19:51
faith life if they feel like they're allowed to be
19:53
curious about it instead of just having to have the answers or having the
19:56
answers told to them.
19:58
>> Loren: Yeah.
19:58
>> Megan: Um, so it's more of a way of,
20:01
um. Like, my faith is developed by
20:04
listening. Right. By
20:06
understanding new ways of thinking, by
20:09
being open to it, being something more.
20:12
>> Loren: What I think is powerful about this, too.
20:14
And I've become a big fan of Nandra Root.
20:17
I'm not sure if you're familiar with.
20:18
>> Megan: I do know Nandra. Yeah.
20:19
>> Loren: Okay. I've become a big fan of his, and I can't remember which
20:22
book it is, but he talks about one of his. His recent ministry
20:25
in his secular age books about the importance of
20:27
testimony. So I'm thinking through that in light of this
20:30
conversation. Like, if we're shitty, if we're sitting
20:33
together in a group, we may be
20:36
sharing some b's. Uh,
20:39
if we're sitting together in a group, sharing conversation, like,
20:41
there's going to be what we might call testimony in
20:44
that group conversation. Like, sharing, like,
20:48
boy, this was a really tough week. Or
20:50
sharing, like, you know,
20:53
I had this moment where I was completely,
20:56
whatever. Uh, and sharing some testimony. And
20:59
Ruth talks about, like, it's in those moments that we can
21:02
recognize through others conversation, he calls a
21:05
testimony God's presence in our midst. So that's.
21:08
That's where I really appreciate this importance of
21:11
conversation. I want to ask
21:14
another follow up question, but let's come back to that.
21:16
>> Megan: Okay?
21:17
>> Loren: Um,
21:20
you write that or. Excuse me. You don't write,
21:23
but you all make the point that
21:26
relationships based on listening are the only
21:28
way back for churches. And
21:31
again, that
21:34
seems hard,
21:37
if only because churches so much have
21:39
been trained in, like, the marketing scheme,
21:42
the mass homogeneous unit
21:45
principle, all these kind of, like, uh, church
21:48
growth tools.
21:49
>> Megan: Right.
21:51
>> Loren: And relationships based on listening are
21:54
really hard. I mean, I think, frankly, it's the only way back for our
21:57
nation. But that's a broader conversation.
21:59
>> Megan: Yeah.
21:59
>> Loren: Tell me why you think. Why you all think that's the only way back for
22:02
churches.
22:02
>> Megan: Oh, it's. It's the one. I mean, in the research that we
22:05
did with springtide and in, you know, everything that we've
22:08
done since then, um, listening is the thing
22:11
that. That moves the needle. It's the. It's the one
22:14
thing that changes everything.
22:16
Um, you know, in our, in the principle of
22:19
Joshua's principle of relational authority that he talks about in the book, it's
22:22
essentially, you know, you can still be an expert in the
22:25
space, but the person that you're
22:28
having a conversation with isn't going to trust what you're saying
22:31
unless you're also demonstrating that you're hearing and, um,
22:33
relatable and listening to that. And that was the one thing that we
22:36
found consistently, is that listening led to high levels of
22:39
trust. And so in this super low
22:42
trust world, you need high trust tool. You need to be able
22:45
to build tools to build
22:47
trust. Um, and relationships are the
22:50
only way to do that. Um, now you're right,
22:53
it is daunting to think about doing it at
22:55
scale. Um, which again, we have tried
22:58
to tap into those solution for that.
23:02
But, um, you can't understate like you were just talking about
23:05
testimonial in the question about faith being
23:08
in conversation. Listening to that
23:11
testimonial not only helps you understand and trust the
23:14
person across from you because they're telling something secret
23:17
about themselves, but that testimonial may be vastly
23:19
different than my experience. And so, understanding that
23:22
there are that many different kinds of purview
23:25
toward, um, the,
23:28
um, you know, like people's
23:31
faith experiences or like, getting something out of hearing
23:33
somebody's testimonial and thinking, like, I've never thought of it that
23:36
way. Um, it's the only way to trust because,
23:39
you know, you're demonstrating that you have, that
23:42
your story is something sacred and unique to yourself, and
23:45
it might be relatable to mine, too.
23:47
Um, so, yeah, the, uh,
23:50
relationships are,
23:53
again, in all the research that we've done, we've
23:56
shown that relationships are the key to building trust
23:58
again, and that trust is how we build the church.
24:02
>> Loren: So we've kind of talked about where I guess the idea came from. Well,
24:05
let's dive into more about the sacred listening
24:07
tools. Yeah, maybe let's
24:10
start with just kind of like the broad
24:13
concept, what it looks like speaking.
24:16
>> Megan: So, sacred, uh, listening is, at its
24:18
core, uh, three. It's a theory and a
24:21
process. And so the theory is three
24:24
main parts. The first one is Imago Dei. We are
24:27
all sacred. Um, now, in secular spaces,
24:30
we refer to this as, like, we are all made of star stuff.
24:33
So, you know, in places where,
24:35
um, especially in conversations with young people who've
24:38
never even. Don't even have a language of faith, sometimes that
24:41
resonates as well. Um, but basically,
24:44
we are all of the same universal stuff.
24:47
And when you put yourself on that, that level with another
24:50
person. It's really easy to be, to like, to feel
24:53
that love, right? Because you're the same. So it
24:55
starts with Imago Dei and
24:58
then, um, um, community. Now, we are not
25:01
theologians. Imago dei is our baby. Theological way
25:04
into, um, into this conversation. And then
25:07
we also, the second component is communication
25:10
studies.
25:10
>> Loren: Huh?
25:10
>> Megan: Which we use alignment. So,
25:13
um, you know, people have different ways of
25:16
knowing, um, of different ways of communicating. So
25:19
aligning your communication style, like, and
25:22
the most simple rudimentary example that we give
25:24
is, um, the difference between introverts and extroverts.
25:27
>> Loren: Right.
25:28
>> Megan: Understand how people communicate.
25:30
>> Loren: Are you an introvert or extrovert?
25:31
>> Megan: I am an introvert.
25:32
>> Loren: Okay, we're gonna survive through this
25:35
interview. We're gonna tough it out and then go
25:38
arthem to our corners.
25:40
>> Megan: I'm sorry, we're going to need to reach ours later.
25:43
Um, yeah, very, very much so.
25:45
Um, but so there's, you know, aligning with that and identities
25:48
and understanding where people come from. There's that alignment piece. And
25:51
then the third part of the theory is sociology. So it's
25:54
pattern recognition. It's asking good questions,
25:57
recording that information, then using that information,
26:00
um, in a way that helps you build trust with another
26:03
person. So, and then that theory is
26:06
a three part process too. So we just take
26:09
each section, make it, um. I wish I had
26:12
a graphic that I could, I do on the website.
26:15
>> Loren: We'll also make sure we make sure I include the
26:18
video.
26:18
>> Megan: So we built this process, uh, to mirror
26:21
that theory. And then in imago
26:24
Dei, um, we call that our
26:27
intention section. I referred to this earlier. It's
26:30
where you find, uh, some sort
26:32
of ritual or practice that puts everybody in the same
26:35
space. When you remind each other that the space is
26:38
sacred and each other is sacred. And you do that very
26:41
intentionally because it sets the tone for the whole rest of the
26:44
process. Um, and then,
26:47
so each one of these tools is a different
26:50
activity, but it's used these same principles to
26:53
build them. So, like we have,
26:55
um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna explain the
26:58
activity as I explain the process. But there's one that we have
27:01
that's called text to connect, where it's literally
27:04
just sending text messages to young people and then
27:06
recording their responses. So the second section in communication
27:09
studies, um, is ask and record. So
27:12
you ask good questions and then you record, you
27:15
literally write down what they're saying and you need that
27:18
information. Um, so in the text to connect
27:21
exercise, we're asking, how was your
27:23
day? And you ask that every day. And you get an
27:26
emoji and you record that emoji, and then it sounds, and then
27:29
the next part is sense the patterns. So you, you know,
27:32
you might find that somebody's had a really hard
27:35
time on, you know, at a certain time of
27:38
day, and they send you a bad emoji and you're like, you know, I really need to follow
27:41
up with that person.
27:42
>> Loren: Huh.
27:43
>> Megan: Um, but then the magic of all of
27:45
that in, in these activities is
27:48
that you can use that information to
27:50
scale relationships.
27:51
>> Loren: Okay?
27:52
>> Megan: So you've learned in the information, the
27:55
pattern you've collected in this group of students that you've been people,
27:58
whoever you're talking to, um, that
28:01
somebody is, you know, feeling like they're
28:04
having a hard time with a parent, and you can connect
28:07
them then with somebody that, you know, in your
28:10
circle. So the sphere is really like helping
28:12
make connections to those people so that you don't have to
28:15
keep all of the information in your head. You have
28:18
relatable information that you can use
28:21
that, you know, builds trust and is
28:24
intimate and you're building a relationship, but then you can also bring
28:26
other people in to help manage those relationships so that you're nothing
28:29
doing that alone. Um, we just recently built
28:32
an activity for a group where,
28:35
um, the young people
28:38
are asked, you know, about the 30 things that they want to do
28:41
before they're 30. And it's a way to, like, suss out their
28:44
dreams and get to know them really well. And you can imagine
28:47
the amount of connections, like, say, a young person tells you
28:50
they want to record a podcast.
28:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
28:52
>> Megan: Well, then I would connect them to you.
28:54
>> Loren: Yeah.
28:54
>> Megan: And you could. So there's this, this nature of communal
28:57
ministry that's built around the
28:59
scaling relationships.
29:01
>> Loren: Yeah, I want to talk more about this when we talk about implications,
29:04
but I think what's interesting about that is
29:07
when, uh, I think about the future of the
29:10
institutional church, it seems like
29:14
the size that's going to struggle the most is the 150
29:17
person church that I think used to be, at least when I was growing
29:20
up church, the standard church.
29:23
Now it seems like the mega church because they're like
29:26
basically corporates, you know, and
29:28
at scale, to use that term, can do it. And like, the really,
29:31
really small church can do it.
29:33
>> Megan: Yeah.
29:34
>> Loren: So, uh, I think the, certainly from a,
29:37
from a pastor's perspective is like the biggest challenge has
29:40
been like you've alluded to is like, I can't keep track
29:43
of
29:43
150
29:46
individuals. So talk more about
29:49
how your methodology, your system can
29:52
really help with that.
29:53
>> Megan: Yeah, um, a lot of it is the
29:55
recording. Like finding some sort of a system to
29:58
record. And even if it's something small, just a touch
30:01
point, because we say
30:04
listening, we mean deep listening, but we also mean paying
30:07
attention. Like, they could tell, again,
30:10
they could tell you something about Tuesdays,
30:12
right? Pay attention. That
30:15
person needs attention on Tuesday. And then, you know, you have a staff
30:18
member that's around on Tuesdays and you might be able
30:21
to. So, like, again, uh, I
30:24
fully reckon we fully recognize that churches
30:27
are always under resourced.
30:28
>> Loren: Right.
30:29
>> Megan: That's. That's a. I'm doing enough research to know that that's
30:31
true. Um, but there's enough resources
30:34
that you can kind of. You can not hand off relationships, but,
30:37
like, share the information enough that that
30:40
person knows. The person you gathered information
30:42
from knows they're being heard because
30:45
other folks are asking about it. Or, you
30:48
know, you do something very small
30:50
and simple, like reach out to them on a Tuesday to see how they're
30:53
doing. Um, it feels very daunting,
30:56
but it's more about, like, gathering information that can be used
30:59
in little ways and sharing the load, and that's enough to build
31:02
trust and connection.
31:04
>> Loren: And I'm thinking, like, ideally it's a situation
31:07
where I, the pastor, the clergy person, is not
31:10
doing. Not necessarily doing the bulk of the
31:12
cause. I'm imagining, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm
31:15
imagining a situation where I'm recording or
31:18
I'm engaging in conversation someone shares, like,
31:21
um, the last loss of pregnancy, for
31:23
instance. So whether,
31:26
uh, you know, whoever that person
31:29
be, ideally, right, would have
31:31
information from previous conversations,
31:35
what there need. So, I mean, the ideal situation would be to
31:38
connect the new person with the old person. Would there
31:41
need to be.
31:43
I guess I'm thinking, like, when you think about
31:46
confidentiality, how do you handle those situations when it's
31:49
something sensitive, like a lost
31:51
pregnancy, a, uh, medical diagnosis?
31:54
>> Megan: Yeah, it's a tragedy. It's really at that level. I mean, especially
31:57
when we're talking about relationship versus something like purpose,
32:00
right. Or something religious health, um,
32:02
related. But, like, in that instance, it would
32:05
be a simple message of, thank you for
32:08
sharing this. I have a friend that can help. Do you mind
32:11
if I share your contact with information? I mean,
32:14
it could be no, right? And that's fine, too. But,
32:17
like, with sensitive. Uh, for example, my husband
32:19
is a youth minister and recently had
32:22
a young person share something very private with him. And
32:25
it was in a group. I mean, it was in one of these
32:28
listening sessions. Um,
32:31
but he said, thank you for sharing.
32:34
I appreciate your vulnerability in this space.
32:37
And then later he followed up and after the
32:39
group said, hey, you know, I recognize this is a hard moment
32:42
for you. Do you mind if I connect you to somebody who's experienced something
32:45
similar? And she was super grateful and like, he didn't
32:48
hand off that relationship, he still has that trust,
32:50
but that person can now attend to that. So. But
32:53
it was exactly that, um, that same kind of thing.
32:56
>> Loren: So that's where you talk about scalable.
32:58
>> Megan: Mhm.
32:58
>> Loren: To use that term, yeah, because it's not just
33:02
in this instance your husband doing
33:04
all the work of like I don't know how many kids are in his youth
33:07
group, for instance, like, like 15.
33:10
>> Megan: Okay, so I mean for this one, yeah.
33:11
>> Loren: But even still, even, right, even if he's gonna provide, I mean
33:14
there's only like five days, so seven days in a
33:16
week and he hopefully only works five.
33:19
Right. So even if he's meeting with a kid
33:22
every five days, which is, or
33:25
every day of the week, which we know is
33:28
impossible, practically speaking.
33:30
Um, and
33:33
obviously not scalable because if it gets to 30,
33:36
there's no way he can even get to every kid in a
33:39
month, it becomes
33:41
scalable. And I hate using that business
33:44
term.
33:44
>> Megan: But I know it is, it makes.
33:46
>> Loren: The most sense,
33:47
um, manageable. I
33:50
don't know what the better term would be, but it makes the most sense.
33:53
It becomes a way to maintain connection
33:56
and I think if to
33:59
build deeper connections or group connections, whether it
34:02
be uh, in the youth group, maybe it's
34:04
like, I don't know, um,
34:07
with a member of the church too. Right. You could build, because I
34:10
think that's when I was most recently working with
34:13
youth. That was the thing that was so desperately
34:16
trying to figure out is to connect. Like the
34:19
youth. Kids would come, their parents would drop them off,
34:22
but then like, they really didn't have any connection to like
34:25
the Sunday morning worship.
34:27
>> Megan: Exactly. Yep. So we actually, um,
34:29
we've built a few activities and they're, they're on the website
34:32
about um, like the scaling part of the activity
34:35
is to like say they've done,
34:37
um, they've made like an art project,
34:40
or there's one where we've literally build like an online community.
34:43
And then you invite the church community into
34:46
that so that you're creating those cross connected
34:49
networks. Um, and you may get five people
34:52
out of 50, but that's still five more people
34:55
that are now leveling that and building that
34:58
network of uh, belonging within
35:00
the community. Um, we have one where we
35:03
build like a gallery, art walk and then we have the community come in
35:06
and do that same kind of project with them,
35:09
um, so that they feel that same kind. They have, you know,
35:12
conversations about identity and things like that, so that the
35:15
community understands the group better and
35:18
then can, then, you know, you can make those connections a little bit
35:20
easier. That is exactly what it's all about. It's
35:23
about, um, removing. And this actually
35:25
gets to, um, implications a little bit.
35:28
Yeah, it's removing that, like central
35:31
sage on the stage, preaching from the pulpit focus
35:34
and turns it into like an I networked community
35:37
engagement of people that are doing life together like
35:40
that. That's the shift.
35:41
>> Loren: I mean, speaking of sustainable, to me,
35:44
that's so much more sustainable than
35:49
the singular focus. If, uh,
35:52
only for one, if my only point
35:54
of contact in the church is with
35:57
you and your senior lead
35:59
pastor and you piss me off,
36:02
I'm gone.
36:04
>> Megan: Right, exactly. And it removes all other
36:06
variables for reasons why you would stay. What if that guy leaves, then
36:09
he lost somebody or a whole family, right? Yeah, that's
36:12
exactly right.
36:13
>> Loren: Yeah.
36:14
>> Megan: So it's branching out those relationships a little bit more.
36:17
>> Loren: So this leads to something else I wanted to ask about. When we think about
36:19
implications is again,
36:22
church, for lack of a word, especially when people think church,
36:25
they think that highly structured Sunday morning
36:28
worship experience. And I know that differs
36:31
obviously somewhat depending on your,
36:33
uh, tradition. Certainly in a more
36:36
evangelical traditions, it's sort of more
36:39
laid back. Right. There's, I don't know, what
36:42
if your church identifies in this tradition. It's the three
36:45
songs, the announcements, the message, the closing
36:48
song. You know, in a more mainline church,
36:51
it's a, uh, call to worship. It's passing the
36:54
peace. It's so there's more familiar rhythms.
36:57
>> Megan: Right, exactly.
36:57
>> Loren: But it's still very like structured. And at most,
37:00
whether it be in the evangelical context, which like, go, go say hi
37:03
to your neighbor, or in a mainline context with past the
37:06
peace, there's not really a lot of opportunity for that
37:09
networking, that, uh, cross connection.
37:12
So I've been wondering, as I think about this
37:15
myself, like, do we need to
37:17
reimagine like the Sunday
37:20
morning worship experience?
37:23
Maybe like a, where, like, I thought about it,
37:25
like maybe one week you have, uh,
37:28
a real structured rally
37:31
sermon, but then follow up weeks
37:34
are based on conversation.
37:37
Have you all thought about what this has implications for
37:40
as far as the Sunday morning experience?
37:42
>> Megan: Yes and no. I think it's hard to even talk about this without
37:45
thinking about that. Our objective is not to
37:48
change Sunday mornings necessarily. But
37:51
I believe that by doing
37:54
this, it will inherently, I'm a sociologist. Build the
37:57
strict systems, and systems affect what happens now.
38:00
Um, I believe that if you change this, it will
38:03
change.
38:03
>> Loren: I wish I had my notes. Write that down, because that's so true.
38:06
Anyway, I'm sorry.
38:07
>> Megan: It will change Sunday mornings,
38:09
organically. Listen, I don't want
38:12
any pastors or priests out there to hear that this is a, uh,
38:15
like, we are not jeopardizing their role
38:18
is still crucial. The expertise, the
38:21
work, and the study, and the care and the compassion that
38:24
goes into being pastoral will always be needed. You
38:27
need somebody who's going to be able to
38:29
help with questions, not always
38:32
have the answers. Your expertise will need to
38:35
change. It will need to be more of a conversation.
38:38
But I think by the nature of developing these
38:41
deep community
38:43
interconnected bonds, it will
38:46
inherently change the way that Sundays work. Because, again, if you're not
38:49
just going because you want to hear what the one guy that you know is
38:52
saying, but you're going because, you know, there's a group of
38:54
people that all feel curious and all feel
38:57
this joy of being together, like, you're more inclined to come, and that
39:00
that will by, I think, will just by
39:03
proxy change the way some days work.
39:05
Um, so again, like, that's not our key
39:08
objective, short of that becomes more
39:11
attractive to young people.
39:13
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
39:14
>> Megan: You know, um, you will. Attendance
39:17
may grow if you build a community that people want to
39:19
be part of. So, you know, I'll change Sundays in that
39:22
you'll. I don't know. I do think there's
39:25
something very comforting about the ritualistic
39:28
traditions of a Sunday, and that will maybe never go away, but
39:31
the dynamics will shift. You know, the pastor
39:34
will become the expert in the space to help
39:37
guide or coach versus, like,
39:40
teach at, um. And the, uh, people
39:43
will feel more trusting of the things that they say.
39:46
And, um. So, yeah, I think that's how it
39:49
changes.
39:50
>> Loren: Let's flesh this out just a little bit more.
39:51
>> Megan: Sure.
39:52
>> Loren: If only because, like, I've gone to
39:55
seminary, invested many
39:57
years, many friends who
39:59
have, um, Phillips seminary shout out,
40:02
sponsor the show. I'm
40:05
thinking about. I've heard it said, and I know I've heard it said even at
40:08
Phillips, like, the role of the pastor as,
40:11
like, what itself said prophet,
40:14
priest, and pastor, I think needs to change
40:17
something, like community organizer
40:20
something. I forget. The third thing is,
40:24
I don't know if you've heard that before. I'm just curious, like,
40:27
does it resonate, if any? And I didn't flesh it
40:30
out real well, but even to what
40:33
you were saying, too, I think matches with what kind
40:36
of heard that there needs to be the shift from, like you said,
40:39
there's the order.
40:41
>> Megan: It resonates with me substantially because I think
40:44
it's happening already. And I think that's a lot of the tension that
40:47
folks in leadership are feeling, that you come out of seminary
40:50
and expect it to be this. Right, or you
40:53
expect to be this. And what you really are is
40:55
mental health professionals and community
40:58
organizer and all of these things for which you are
41:01
not equipped. But m I think if the, you know, again,
41:04
I am not a seminarian. I did not go to seminary. Full
41:06
disclosure. Um, and I'm not trying to change
41:09
all, you know, theological schools, but I do think that there
41:12
is, you know, a guided direction
41:15
that we need to take more toward
41:18
relationships and networking and community building
41:21
up front, you know, while you're also learning to be the
41:23
expert in the space. And how do you lead a congregation?
41:27
Um, so, yeah, I mean, I do think there is a shift
41:29
towards that, but it's like, it's already
41:32
happening due to the nature of how relational dynamics
41:35
and the structure of the judge is changing. It's happening, and that's
41:38
where that, like, you know, they're not equipped.
41:41
And so that's the tension and the frustration that folks that are
41:44
investing in that seminary experience.
41:46
>> Loren: Correct me m if I'm wrong here, but I have a sense that someone could
41:49
do the sort of training you're advocating
41:52
for quicker and
41:54
cheaper than seminary.
41:57
So you could start with this, like, get into
42:00
the space. And then again, I don't want to
42:03
diminish the importance of seminary. Like, I think we've both seen the
42:06
danger of folks with poor
42:08
theological framework.
42:09
>> Megan: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
42:10
>> Loren: Like, so I don't want to diminish.
42:12
>> Megan: But you don't want folks leading
42:15
as experts in this page.
42:16
>> Loren: But I think it could work like, as an apprenticeship model, which I think seems
42:19
to be. There seems to be some energy around that, even in secular
42:22
spaces.
42:23
>> Megan: Yeah, I think so, too. Um, and there's a lot of, like,
42:26
continuing education programs, even that, you
42:29
know, I, um, know Princeton does a lot
42:32
of it where they offer, uh, additional
42:34
supportive, um, like the
42:36
intermediary parts that don't necessarily fall into the
42:39
purview of seminary, that give you that additional boost to be able to
42:42
support outside of.
42:44
>> Loren: The, like, we still need those institutions.
42:47
>> Megan: Yeah, obviously. Exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah.
42:50
>> Loren: Um, that's. I mean, anything else you
42:53
want to say? I think this has been a good conversation, but before we take a break, any
42:56
other something I've missed. You want to point
42:59
out?
43:00
>> Megan: Um, no, not really. I do want to.
43:03
I want to plug future faith only in that,
43:06
um, there's a lot more information about the theory
43:09
and the process on the website, and we build
43:12
these custom tools to
43:15
match your context so, you know, activities
43:17
or types of things that you might need for your
43:20
space. We do that, um, to help you make
43:22
connections in your area,
43:25
um, like everything from an
43:27
LGBTQ youth group in Florida to.
43:30
We're working with a group doing TBRI,
43:34
um, the trust based
43:37
in ministries, which is very cool.
43:40
Um, so, yeah, that's all. I just wanted to kind
43:43
of say, if you want to know more about it, for sure, it's
43:46
there, and it's really difficult to explain
43:49
the theory in the process,
43:51
um, without a visual,
43:53
apparently we'll have to go on the
43:56
website.
43:57
>> Loren: I'll make sure we put, uh, the YouTube
44:00
in the show notes and what the white paper that I'm
44:03
excited to read to. When might that be out?
44:05
>> Megan: Well, I don't know. We've just actually been told that we
44:08
wrote a paper about the, um, about
44:10
listening and the power of listening and how this is going
44:13
to change relationships. That will be published in the Journal
44:16
of Moral Theology. We just found out that
44:19
we got that accepted m. And then we're going to use that and a lot
44:22
of the other. We're doing an internal research project,
44:25
um, about the impact of listening, um, and a number
44:28
of other things that are going to kind culminate into that white paper.
44:31
So to be determined.
44:33
>> Loren: Okay. Um.
44:33
>> Megan: Um, but there will have more stuff out for sure. Um.
44:36
Um, with more of the research and the actual data
44:39
and stuff.
44:39
>> Loren: Okay.
44:39
>> Megan: Yeah.
44:40
>> Loren: Good stuff coming. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll come back
44:43
with some closing questions.
44:44
>> Megan: Sounds good.
44:48
>> Loren: All right, we're back with Megan Bissell. I feel like I'm saying
44:50
that wrong. Bissell, Bissell. Bissell.
44:53
>> Megan: What? I'll take it any.
44:54
>> Loren: Okay, so big questions you can take as seriously
44:57
or not as you'd like to. If you're pope for a
44:59
day, what do you
45:02
want to do? What does that day look like for you?
45:04
>> Megan: Well, first of all, I would be a
45:07
woman serving in the catholic church.
45:09
>> Loren: Yeah.
45:10
>> Megan: So I would be very
45:13
feminine, uh, and make a real big deal about being
45:16
a woman in the catholic church. And I think
45:19
the other thing that I would do, I would make no decrees, I would
45:22
change no rules. I would just spend the whole
45:24
day embodying kindness and
45:27
love as much as possible, because I feel like if you're the person
45:30
chosen by God.
45:31
>> Loren: Yes.
45:32
>> Megan: To be in that role and I had that
45:35
opportunity. All I would want to do is just like
45:37
pour out as much goodness as the world could take
45:40
one day. Be like, this is what it's supposed to be about.
45:43
>> Loren: I like that. I like that um, a
45:46
theologian or historical christian figure you'd want to
45:49
meet.
45:49
>> Megan: Or bring back to life
45:52
Rachel held Evans. Yeah, I
45:55
miss her. I actually firmly believe
45:58
had she still been around and with
46:01
future faith moving in the way that it is, we would be friends
46:04
also. I like her friends like Sarah Bessie and Nadia
46:07
Bollswebber. I really like them a lot.
46:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:11
>> Megan: Rachel did a lot of really important work for inclusion in
46:14
the church. Again, was that embodiment of. So
46:16
I, I would love to meet Rachel
46:19
Hidens.
46:20
>> Loren: I feel like ive used this before. I feel like
46:23
shes like this. Generations rich
46:26
mons m. Yeah,
46:28
for sure.
46:30
>> Megan: Yeah, shes excellent. I think
46:32
that we lost her way too soon.
46:36
>> Loren: Rest in peace.
46:37
>> Megan: I know.
46:38
>> Loren: Um, what do you think history will remember from our current time and
46:41
place?
46:41
>> Megan: Oh, ah, this is so hard.
46:45
Hopefully, um, not as much as we think.
46:47
Yeah, I think the
46:50
division, uh, the polarization
46:53
is going to be very noteworthy.
46:56
Uh, and the disconnection and all
46:59
of the, obviously Covid but that's
47:02
all the same story. It's all polarization and
47:04
disconnection and how
47:07
hopefully they will remember how we bring
47:10
everybody back together. Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for
47:13
because we're living the disconnection part in my
47:15
lifetime. Part of my goal in the world
47:18
is to figure out how to bring people back together, even little
47:21
bits at a time. So hopefully that's what happens.
47:23
>> Loren: That's kind of your hope then. It is my hope for the future of
47:26
christianity.
47:27
>> Megan: Yeah. In addition to um. I
47:30
just really want Christianity to be a
47:32
place of wonder and joyous and
47:35
curiosity again. I just, I know
47:38
it was at one point. Right. And you know, I have
47:40
experienced that as a young person where again,
47:43
my parents fostered that and I was very lucky to have that.
47:46
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
47:47
>> Megan: And they fostered in this organic way of just ask questions
47:50
and be curious and find the fun and joy.
47:52
Like, wouldn't you rather live in a
47:54
world where there's a loving
47:57
God, uh-huh. And teaches us and then, and
48:00
then what we get from that is meaning and purpose and
48:03
joy and love and all of that than not like
48:06
I would. So that's what I want. How do we make
48:08
christianity that place or that hope of like that's the world we
48:11
live in.
48:12
>> Loren: Yeah.
48:12
>> Megan: That's what I want.
48:13
>> Loren: Yeah, all right. Plug the website. Plug the
48:16
website again.
48:18
>> Megan: Futurefaith um.org. and, uh, you'll
48:20
find on there our sacred listening theory and
48:23
tools. Um, the tools are all downloadable.
48:26
We started out as a, we were hoping that this was just going to be
48:29
a gift to the church
48:31
m and that we were, you know, help ministers
48:34
make these connections. Ah, it has since
48:37
developed into a lot more than that. We are now doing,
48:40
we're doing research with mission aligned organizations to help
48:43
them move their missions forward. Josh and I are both researchers,
48:45
so, um, we have a listening and
48:48
relationship focused research method that's also
48:51
on the website. You can see more about that. Um, and
48:54
honestly, to find me, just email
48:56
meganutureoffaith.org or Josh. He doesn't
48:59
mind either. Um, joshutureoffaith.org dot.
49:02
Um, we're very accessible. We like to be that way.
49:05
And a big part of what we're trying to do here is
49:08
build a community, um, of people who largely feel
49:11
isolated in the field. And so reach
49:13
out, ask questions. Let's do stuff together.
49:16
>> Loren: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time.
49:19
Appreciate you making your way down to this space.
49:21
>> Megan: I'm glad I saw it. You know, I'm from, um,
49:24
well, county, which does high Plains library, and we do
49:27
libraries, right. So I got to see this one, which is. Yeah, yeah.
49:30
>> Loren: So we both got to take a little trip to Fort Lupton,
49:33
Colorado. So always leave folks with a word of peace. So
49:36
may God's peace be with you.
49:37
>> Megan: Thank you.
49:45
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
49:47
The Future Christian podcast is produced by Resonate
49:50
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
49:53
questions, comments, and ideas for future
49:55
episodes. Visit our website at, uh, future dash
49:58
Christian.com and find the Connect with us
50:01
form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha
50:04
or Loren. But before you go, do us a
50:07
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50:10
It really helps us get this out to more people.
50:13
Thanks. And go in peace.