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16. How to Incorporate a Financial Behavior Officer Into Your Firm with Jake Northrup · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Part of I think being a really good advisor is being comfortable to be uncomfortable.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it's sort of this okay, sometimes when I don't really know where to go, if I just pause for a few seconds and not have to rush to fill the space, I found that's to be really that time can be really valuable too.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning, from understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Get ready to transform your practice and yourself.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is Planning and Beyond.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm excited to be joined by Jake Northrop, owner of Experience Your Wealth, who's taken quite an extraordinary step, maybe even bold, I would say, into enhancing his client relationships by integrating a financial behavior specialist into his firm.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, full disclosure, full transparency, I am that financial behavior specialist.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And Jake and I presented uh at XYPN uh conference fall of 2024.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about just this role and the direction that it can take for not only just the firm itself, but the impact also on clients and the future really of financial planning.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, full disclosure here, Jake and I are going to be talking a little bit about some of the work that we do and highlight some of the unique things and experiences we've been able to create together.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Jake, welcome.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on here and sharing all of your wisdom with us today.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for having me.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's your podcast.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: You get to plug yourself as much as you want.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: As I love to.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess it felt a little bit weird saying who is this financial behavior specialist?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, hey, wait, actually, like, yeah, that's me.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just being full transparency, I'm that girl.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to maybe just kind of start with understanding a little bit more about your own journey into financial planning.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: I always find these stories really fascinating.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So would you mind maybe just taking us on a ride and sharing a little bit about how you got into this field?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure thing.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been in the field for about a decade now.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: It feels cool to be able to say a decade because it makes me feel like I'm older than I am.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: But the way I started was pretty unique.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I was an undergrad in finance.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I always loved numbers, investments.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: I also was drawn to psychology too, but I didn't really know financial planning existed.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: But unique life event happened that actually put me on the side of being a client early on in my life that I was not expecting.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: So my dad actually passed away suddenly when I was 21 years old.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And what I knew at that point was I was sitting across the table from our family's financial planner with my mom next to me.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's the last thing we wanted to think about was dealing with life insurance and everything else at that point.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember we walked away from that meeting and just felt like, oh my God, thank God there's someone that knows us, knows what's important to us, is able to guide us through this transition.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: So as we're mourning through this death, you know, we're focusing less on the numbers and more about just our family at this time.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: So what turned from a really difficult life event, you know, I kind of found my passion at a really young age.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then I grew up in the industry since then.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I got my CFP right out of college.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I joined another great financial planning firm where we were focusing on clients that are typically$5 million up in net worth, more towards the retiree side and learned the ins and outs of financial planning there more on like the tactical, the science piece.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I was always drawn more to the human element, the psychology around it.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they were doing a great job in terms of the investments, the taxes, all that, which is super important.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I was working with clients that were 60, 65, 70 that had more money than they ever needed, but they were looking back and feeling like they didn't have close relationships with their kids or they could have done more in their career or charity, whatever that was.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I felt like there was a huge opportunity for us to work with clients at an earlier stage of life to really help them best align their money with their life as soon as they can.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: So as they're building their net worth, they're also building their life along the way.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one of the reasons why I started my firm, Experience Your Wealth, back in November 2019.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we're coming up on year six now.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're a team of two, soon to be a team of three, plus plus you, of course, as well.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: We work with 70 clients pretty much all over the country at this point, typically young families that love to travel, have some type of equity compensation or own a business and really embrace and appreciate the type of work that we do with us.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's quite the journey.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate you sharing just from a vulnerability place, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: About that and that life event that led you to that.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: I find that working with really just anyone, not just advisors, but those that are deeply touched by maybe some kind of life event and then moving into maybe a profession where that life event touched, they tend to just be exceptional, like in their role.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I very much think that about you, that you are an exceptional planner and do exceptional work with your clients.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So talk to me a little bit about you've had EYW since started in 2019, and your passion, your interest in psychology really was there from the get-go.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's what inspired you to leave that larger firm and start your own.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious, like in your own just kind of journey there, really what was that moment in EYW within EYW where you kind of said, like, oh, or realized maybe like, oh, I kind of need or I want or would love to have some type of behavioral expertise here.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say first off, the way that we practice financial planning, we call, I mean financial life planning in all different aspects, but that was very new to me when I started my firm.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, just using Kinder's three questions and our discovery process to really go deeper with clients or beginning to really understand that the psychology behind some of the money decisions.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I felt like when I started my firm, I was interested in this.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like intuitively and naturally I knew a lot about it, but I didn't really have the language yet to say like what I was doing.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: For example, you asked me five years ago what motivational interviewing was, I'd be like, I have no friggin' idea.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds cool.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I was learning about it, I was like, oh, I'm kind of doing that already, or that makes a lot of sense.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: So what was interesting there is I had a desire to go a little bit deeper with clients, but I didn't feel like I had to yet be a total expert to do it.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: I just felt like I could ask questions and be very curious about why people are wired a certain way and what drives them before feeling like I have to be fully ready to go a little bit deeper into this realm.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for I've talked to other advisors about it, how do you get started in some of this too?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And some people, we get perfectionist mentalities that we have to research everything and all this together too.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes you just need to dive in a little bit too.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what started there, I just think I learned a lot more.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then what got me really curious was I was seeing that there's a lot of meetings I was having with clients where I was just recognizing some stuckness that they would have or certain themes really showing up, especially for some of our clients around they're growing their net worth, they're saving a lot, but they're still struggling to spend or make certain decisions that might not put them on that certain path.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And where I started to see my role being was helping them name what's at stake of, hey, I'm noticing that it seems like you feel comfortable with the path you're going on.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious, is there things that you can be doing all right now too that could help maximize your life?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or you mentioned X, Y, and Z being really important.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: They'd say yes and then they wouldn't do it.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I was just noticing more things around that.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think more of my research led me to think, hey, there's some level of stuckness, there's some level of opportunity for us to go a little bit deeper.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where it kind of the spark happened to say, hey, I want my firm to be able to be a sounding board for clients and help guide clients through that too.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: But is that necessarily my role?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, maybe not, right?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I actually looked for a role that you had back in 2020.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't really exist at the time.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you launched your role, I said, oh my God, this is what I've been waiting for.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I was probably five minutes after you posted on LinkedIn that you get a message from me saying, Hey, let's just go.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I literally think it was five minutes.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure I was at the beach and I had like an O S word, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: With the little asterisk here.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: I won't say that word in case my kids ever listen to this.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I had like that moment of, oh my gosh, like somebody actually took me up on this.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is kind of wild and kind of crazy.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I hear you.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I I wonder just from you know, you're really involved just in the advisor community through your work.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just curious, like that recognition of stuckness that you talked about, that me, advisor Jake, like I can do a pretty decent job in asking some of these questions.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like I build good rapport.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I have a good understanding, but I'm reaching these points of stuckness with clients and I don't know if it's my role or if I know how to help kind of move them outside of that.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that that's something that a lot of advisors, I mean, is that common?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: You feel like that's something that a lot of advisors struggle with or could would resonate with?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say so because especially those that are interested in going a little bit deeper on the human side, it's naturally going to start coming up around the stories or how people are wired behind some of this too.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the analogy that I finally started to put words to it, which has given me some just mental freedom in terms of what I think my and potentially other advisors' role is here is think of it as us being like an emergency room doctor, right?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like we are at the forefront of some of the initial conversations we're having with clients about their money decisions, you know, what's happening behind the scenes for them.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we might be the first person that they're talking to about the stuckness, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I started to notice there was this feeling I had in my body when there was some of that stuckness happening.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want to do here?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think advisors tend to be wanting to really help and fix things, but sometimes the best thing that you can actually do for clients is not fix it.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's just help a client name it and give space to it.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And as I started to do that more, I saw that I was kind of alleviating some of the stress that clients had.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think they were expressing things in a really healthy way.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: But then a prompt me to say, okay, I've helped them name it.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: What's next after that?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I think that line came in of Ashley or different financial therapists, people with your training, you're more of the doctor there.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't want to feel like it was up to me necessarily to help a client go through, for example, there's certain money scripts or different stories that happened in childhood to overcome about why they're wired a certain way.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: But if I can help them identify that's what's at stake and then partner with someone like you to do that, for me, I feel like we're helping the firm, but also I don't have to be that expert for them as well.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think as advisors, it's important to see some of this and also recognize we don't have to be everything for all our clients.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just like how with taxes, like we will see a lot of different opportunities, but we still work with an accountant typically, it can be like that in this relationship.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that analogy is something that for not just in this particular scenario, but in others too with other professionals, makes a lot of sense.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can help clients name this, I can identify it, but am I the right person to help navigate this particular aspect of the client relationship or this problem?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about integration, I guess, kind of of this of this role and like maybe what does that look like?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: I recognize how we started is has evolved in terms of where we are now, but from an initial kind of place, like what were your thoughts around integrating kind of the role?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's talk a little bit about maybe kind of where we've we've started and what that maybe looks like there in terms of how does this person fit into the firm?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think for me, stage of the firm is important because I think partnering with someone like you or another person offering a similar offering, it's probably not a year one, two type hire or investment.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's more about you're in the scaling phase of your firm.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: You might have a few team members, and there's an art of wanting to scale in an efficient way while still maintaining a quality bar.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, when you have 10 clients, you can be pretty much everything to those clients within the realm of what you're comfortable with.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Once you have 50 or 60 and you have team members, you're running the business too.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: It sort of forces you to say, what's your unique ability and what are you absolutely best at within some of this too?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that for us, we were at this stage where I felt like we could integrate you into the team from a financial standpoint, we could do it.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: We had team members that you could help with around training and kind of stepping in there, which was really helpful.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I also wanted to be really intentional in terms of how do we introduce you to clients?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because from my end, I didn't want clients to think it's a problem if Ashley is involved necessarily.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: So what we've done pretty intentionally is say, we're just going to treat you as part of the team, right?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Ashley, you're on our website, you're in our newsletter, you're CC'd on all of our company emails too.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we've been very intentional in terms of people know your name before we talk about like having you in on a meeting or something like that.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, this is already kind of a new thing that we're building together now that there's an art in terms of how do you bridge that gap to how they can actually benefit costs.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a great point that you made there about wanting to make sure that clients do not feel like, hey, if this role, if this specialist is involved, then that means something is maybe wrong or wrong with you.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's an important distinction to make.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that we don't want clients to feel like, hey, if a financial therapist or if a financial behavior specialist, if they're involved in the meetings, right, that it's oh, it's okay.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a negative reflection on you, what you're doing, your financial situation.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the things that I've been impressed with the most about you and how you've navigated that is really just being open and transparent.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned earlier, like naming the things, like just kind of speaking to like, and I don't want to say the elephant in the room because it's not necessarily an elephant, but just being transparent around saying, like, hey, this is what this is, and it doesn't mean that something's wrong.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think that you do a great job of doing that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious, like being kind of that open and transparent with clients, you know, around not just the integration, like of this role, but maybe other things.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you notice on the client and how do you see that as beneficial in just normalizing some of the work that we do?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think the multiple things there that I think is valuable to the client.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Number one is sometimes as we're asking questions to clients, they might be bringing up things to us that they themselves have not really thought of, they haven't heard from from their partner too.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's important for us not to necessarily dismiss that because if we're uncomfortable hearing some of that from them, and then we kind of move on or don't really ask a question, we're sending a signal to the client that's no longer a safe space to talk about that, whether we're meaning to or not there.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: So part of I think being a really good advisor is being comfortable to be uncomfortable.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it's sort of this, okay, sometimes when I don't really know where to go, if I just pause for a few seconds and not have to rush to fill the space, I found that's to be really that time can be really valuable for the client too.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: But even when I think about talking about how you can help them or some of your role, I don't need to be perfect in it.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I'll frame it as if it's okay with you, it sounds like either life stakes are high or I'm recognizing some stuckness.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Our team member Ashley will periodically join meetings like this to help facilitate conversations and just be another thinking partner for you.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how would that be okay with you if you know she joined our next meeting, right?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: The way that I frame that hopefully wasn't very threatening.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying it as there's a clear problem in here.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm framing it as let's have another facilitator in to be a thinking partner for you.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if the client's uncomfortable with it, they can say so, right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: I want to offer it up to them as opposed to saying, here's the next thing to do.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we can be really intentional with that language.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly, I think we've probably also built it up in our own heads where a client just might be like, yeah, cool, sounds good.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: You want another person to join the meeting and just wants to listen about what's important to me?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think they're gonna be very receptive to it.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my impression is that it seems so.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think anytime that you, and I've experienced this like on the medical side of things, like anytime a doctor has said, Hey, I actually want to bring in this specialist, another thinking partner to think about you and your problem that you're experiencing, would it be okay if I, you know, brought this other person in?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And now instead of one person thinking about you and how to help you, now you've got like, you know, a team of two or three.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I feel like on the patient, like client side of things, you know, I'm like, yeah, like that's amazing.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, of course I would want, would want that there.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the language and approach is important.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, sometimes we build things up a little bit too much in our heads, which, you know, I think is human nature to some degree.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think along that along that level too, it's if you frame it to clients where life stakes are high, that can be opportunities for someone else to come in.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Just think of using that kind of medical analogy.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say that you are considering a bigger surgery, you've been working with a doctor, and that doctor offers to say, Hey, can I have my partner come in too?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's a lot of pros and cons here that we want you to really feel comfortable with, and they'll have another perspective.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, you don't need to pay more for that or anything, and we're gonna schedule it and just have them come.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is that okay with you?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Using parallel example to, you know, one of the clients that we've worked with, they were thinking about taking a new job across the country, and that would cause their whole family to be moving from the East Coast to the West Coast, right?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's not necessarily a problem, but that's something that you and I worked on together.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was talking about it, I invited that as a big change for their family.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, would it be okay with you for our next meeting?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have like the numbers part of it.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I understand more of the full picture and have Ashley join because what we're eventually gonna get to is this is a values-based decision about what's more important to your family, about living over here and living over here.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Money plays a role in that, but it's also not the main role behind it, too.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that framing of even just life stakes being high, I think sometimes that can invite the client to say, oh yeah, you're teeing it up a little bit easier when the decisions behind something might be less money motivated and more value.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's such a great point.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be that, as we talked about earlier, that clients are stuck, right?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't necessarily have to be that or that there's a problem.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: It could just be, as you said, a life stakes type of decision that needs to be made.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And would having somebody else who has a different perspective in the room, would that be helpful in that scenario?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we've indirectly, I guess, kind of talked about what like that role as a financial behavior specialist in a firm, kind of what it looks like in the sense of talking about sitting in on client meetings.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: But let's maybe kind of get into just some of the other areas where this role can be brought into the financial planning firm.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think again, the client meetings is huge, really, really valuable for me.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's with me, but it's also directly with clients too.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: So when we get back to scaling a firm, for a client to just know whether they take it up or on take up the offer or not, that they can go meet with you directly to talk through something.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's really, really valuable for me as a firm owner, right?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: So there's client meetings together.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's also just one-on-one with you.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: But outside of that, we've done things together like training the team, um, just doing, you know, hey, I have these upcoming meetings.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've recognized the client might be stuck here or there's a spouse that's disengaged.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what we've tried and co-creating some of those and brainstorming some of those.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't necessarily need to have you be in on all of those meetings, but we can tee things up and say, hey, we have the financial aspect done, but we're recognizing that maybe a client said they're doing something this way and they haven't actually acted.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And having a thinking partner for us to say, we want to help clients bridge the knowing doing gap the best that we can.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that help has been great.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then also there's been totally separate side too, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: You and I have gone through and kind of experimented.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: I call like there's the EYW lab that we do where like, let's try to do this.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then clients might be like, this is terrible, we're not gonna do it.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: But we've done some things like we recently did an EYW.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, life money index that we're rolling out to clients where they're taking a 20 to 25 question survey on basically these wheel of life like questions.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I created that and we're sort of like, we think this is valuable.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really know yet.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: We sent it out to some clients.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: You and I literally haven't had a chance to talk through this yet, but like the feedback's been great, right?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for me, there's there's a mix of here are things I need to immediately address that I want to help clients with.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also thinking ahead about where do you want your firm to be?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, how do you want to go a little bit deeper into the human aspect of money so that as the evolution of how we support clients uh continues to go forward, we're at the forefront of that.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's like this kind of nurture aspect, you know, to it.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I would imagine for a lot of advisors, it's not really like the technical piece.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you guys are so gifted and trained and well versed in like how to do the technical aspect of financial planning.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and for those that maybe are in positions of ownership in a firm, I would imagine that there is some strategic thinking just around what's the nurture aspect?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: What are the client touch points and what's the experience that like we want to create?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: We've got the financial planning handled, like we know how to do that well, but what's beyond that?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, kind of what else, right?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is there?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, the EYW lab is, I guess, kind of that uh that that place there from an experimentation standpoint and being able to try out kind of some cool things.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I don't know, talking about just kind of the what else and what is kind of the future look like.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, from your perspective, you've been in now for a decade.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: You've seen a little bit here, kind of of this now new evolution where behavioral finance, financial psychology is now, it's obviously in the CFP competencies that are being, you know, tested out and taught.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you kind of see some of this going?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Not just with EYW, but maybe like at large here.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you see not just this role, but the incorporation of some of these competencies?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you see that growing and evolving?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll share my thoughts.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also really curious to hear what you think on that too.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: The industry's gone through such a beautiful shift of it.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Used to be about investment management and then it went into comprehensive financial planning.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And those are so, so important now.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: But frankly, I think those are just table stakes now.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: You need to have that down.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the future clients, and I think the future firms are gonna be the ones that really help clients best align their money with their life.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that starts, yes, on the vision aspect.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're doing a great job there.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think the next evolution is what is our role in again, some of the work that we're doing about helping clients with stock nurse or how they're wired with money or change their mindset or get to like what is their higher purpose in life and what how do they want their money to support them with some of that, right?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we'll evolve necessarily to be life coaches and therapists, but there can be life coaching and therapeutic questions and practices that we can implement into our client service there.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the art of some of that too is which I've heard from other advisors, that doesn't scale very well.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: If you have 250 clients, like it's hard to do that, right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna say there's a certain number of clients or not you should work with, but the way that I think about growing, at least my firm, is we want to continue to grow.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: But this area for us to dive a little bit deeper into is where I think it's gonna separate us and really help to just make this really large impact on people's life and on their finances and honestly help them kind of transform the relationship with money.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's where my hope is that it goes.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: I still think it's very, very early with that.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I'd love to hear from you.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you're at the forefront of the yeah, kind of unknowingly, I didn't realize it.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Truth be told, like I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, like I'm Clayton's a CFP, but like, you know, I don't know like what the scope of the industry or didn't really know what that landscape entirely looked like coming into it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a like just eyes kind of wide open experience, truth be told, the last two to three years of like, oh wow, this is kind of crazy and cool all at the same time.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: I do think from a evolution and trajectory of where things are going, I think that the expectation, as you said, and I'll echo that, is the good financial planning, technical expertise that will be expected.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Having great investment strategies, being able to save and have or offer advice on tax strategies for like that's gonna be the normal, like that's expected, like bare bones minimum, like foundation.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think for younger generations, millennials here, and kind of as they are growing and aging, like there's already, I don't want to say therapy, but well-being is already normalized.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: That is something that we are already focused on and and how to literally experience our wealth and what that will look like.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so being able to have a thinking partner in a financial planner or firm, being able to have a thinking partner that can help us focus on how are we living well, I think that's gonna be what differentiates, you know, and weeds out advisors and or or firms.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that will only continue with millennials and and younger generations as they as they come up.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: The model for retirement, you know, thinking about millennials too, like that model for retirement, you know, I'm watching my parents now and you know, that old school way of thinking about how to do retirement, it is changing very, very quickly.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that will be the case once knock on wood, you know, I get there and reach that point, it's gonna look a lot different.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm not wanting to just save everything for being able to travel, like when I'm in my 70s or experience things.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want a thinking partner that can help me do and incorporate some of that now from a lifestyle standpoint.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm with you.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think the technical piece will be bare bones minimum.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think that having a you know strategic partner that can help focus on well-being, again, you don't have to be a therapist or a coach, but it is at least incorporating and thinking through some of that will be, I think that's kind of that next next step.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Jim Grubman, his book, Wealth 3.0, right?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of that next evolution there.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's exciting, right?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: To kind of see and hope for.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's gonna be next year, unfortunately, but I do think it's growing into that.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious on your end though, being kind of 10 years in, you and I have been working together for 18 months.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 18 months.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: What are from like a client experience, from a client engagement, like dynamic?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like what are some of the things that you've been noticing there kind of since, you know, I guess the last 18 months and the work that we've been doing?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel like clients are receiving and benefiting from this type of engagement?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think they're getting a lot more comfortable and used to the types of questions and meetings that we're having.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think they know when they're joining meetings, it's not just talking about numbers.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're getting in the mindset and the space that we're gonna talk about life, we're gonna talk about values.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also them knowing that there is a resource for some of the areas in their life that might not be like fitting into a meeting with Jake, for example, right?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's been really helpful where we've had some clients reach out to you, for example, for things like how to talk to their parents about money, right?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or how we think about, you and I have talked about this.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: How do we teach our clients how to communicate to their kids about money, right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: If the if a client goes through a massive liquidation event and their net worth is significantly different now and their lifestyle has changed, you bet their kids are gonna start noticing that.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: But how are they communicating to their kids on things like that too?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I think it gets really fun and curious about where we can go.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I've definitely recognized that our retention is really high.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how much of that is related exactly to the work we do.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's hard to pinpoint that, but I think I've noticed just the engagement in the client meetings is really high.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've noticed more people knowing you and then also just knowing that they can reach out to you or being like, oh yeah, it can actually help us with something like that.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: That within itself is incredibly valuable to clients and really fun to see as well.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking about the client benefit side, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like that you just shared, what have you noticed like within yourself since incorporating some of this role or having different expert in the room, right, for client meetings?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's it been like for you?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: How have you, I don't want to say how have you benefited, but you know, what's been your experience?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: What have you noticed within yourself?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, two things.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think one, there's been this sense of just calm and zen a little bit.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's like a weight off my shoulders, I think.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it gets back to what I talked about earlier of what's our role as a financial planner and not having to feel like we need to be everything to our clients there.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: So for me to know I can help clients ask really good questions, provide space for them, name that, name an issue or help them get to what's at stake with some of this.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the fact that I now know that there's a solution or someone that can help them for some of that, for me, it just offers a lot of mental freedom there.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I can actually be a lot more engaged in terms of what's happening in the meeting because I'm not thinking where am I going next.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: So for me to know this is my role, it doesn't have to be as rigid, but I can set that expectation to clients that, hey, if we need to help you kind of rewire and uncover why you're making decisions a certain way or what that stuckness might be, the fact that I know that's not gonna be on my shoulders now, it's allowing me to be more present as an advisor.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's just made me better from there.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then secondly, I would say it's made it exciting for me to feel like I can continue to grow and scale this firm.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think your involvement shows that is a straight commitment to that we want to go and improve our client experience.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: We want to be at the forefront of this too.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: So for me to have this thinking partner that's solely focused on this, like you and I are not talking about tax planning, nor do I want Ashley to be talking about taxing.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: You do not want me to talk about tax planning.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's helpful because as advisors, like we're wearing so many hats.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is hard in a meeting to, and we've had this happen where I had to answer a question about tax planning and then insurance and then investment, and you were in on the meeting with me, and you're just strictly focused on their communication, the psychology, what's happening in there.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's allowed me to just be more present because then I know, okay, I have just another thinking partner for me.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: To borrow an analogy from Brene Brown, we talked about this XYPN, but in a meeting, you can sometimes there's a person on the dance floor and there's someone on the balcony.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when I'm leading a meeting with the client, it's like I'm on the dance floor with them.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And having you on there, it's like having someone on the balcony that can look down and see things.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I might need a break or I need to come up for air.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you come down to the balcony with a client, I go back up.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like together, whether it's discovery meetings, existing client meetings, anything like that, uh, it's just resulted in a better experience for clients and then helped me be a better advisor.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like your dance floor analogy.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot better than the one we used to use in graduate school, which was like a WWE like wrestling match when we had co-therapists.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was like tagging you in for the wrestling match, or like the wrestling match there.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the dance analogy a little bit more aggressive, a lot less aggressive and violent, right?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot less violent to you know, think about like wrestling like your cloud, your clients.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a much, much better analogy.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: In all seriousness, though, I think one of the things that I've learned from you working with you is I did not realize everything kind of that you just shared of what advisors have going on and how many aspects they're having to attune to, like in a meeting, right?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: You have the financial, like the tactical stuff that's going on.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: You also have the communication if it's between a couple, like what's the dynamic there between them?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: You have the emotional psychological piece too.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's just a lot of areas to be focused or attuning to.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I had not naively, I didn't realize that until we started working together.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I can only imagine just how much pressure that can be, or just you know, so overwhelming, or just how difficult, right, that would be having to attune to all these, you know, different aspects of a client.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you seem to do it, have done it quite well, obviously.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I also understand where having just a different, having just another person in there that is just maybe solely focused on one particular part can alleviate and allow, in this case, you more thinking room to focus more on the financial planning aspects of the relationship.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious for you in terms of offering maybe suggestions, advice for any like advisors.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're listening, maybe they're like, okay, maybe this seems kind of cool, this sounds interesting.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: What would you suggest for those advisors who maybe share that interest like in psychology and are like, that's kind of cool.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: What are some great starting points for them in terms of maybe thinking about not just bringing in this role, but trying to incorporate maybe more financial psychology or the behavioral or human side of planning?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: What would be your advice in terms of where they can start?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's so many, I mean, there's so many good resources and podcasts.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, listen to your podcast at first.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there's probably some gentle ways to enter and whether that is you could do it in a discovery process, whether that is any of like money quotient has great tools, there's kinder's questions, there's Bill Backrack's question.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many different resources in there and figuring out what you're comfortable with or not.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me, that was my entry point with some of this.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what I liked was there was structure.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I was sort of following a process, and then I could go off of that process based on where the client was bringing me, but then go back to a process, which for me was helpful starting something new.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: But also, like even a small thing, like starting to ask scaling questions to clients on a scale of one to 10, how is this meeting for you?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or at a scale of one to 10, you talk through action items, you say, how confident do you feel in getting these done or what's going to get in the way or certain things.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: So there's very small ways that you can go.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you have to necessarily go to the full spectrum of hiring someone like you necessarily to come to the team, but also probably start before you're ready, right?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think already as an advisor, if you're listening to this, you're already in tune and wanting to do really good work for your clients and getting back to what I mentioned earlier.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have to necessarily be an expert with all of this, if you can be that emergency room nurse and if you can help clients just give space, ask good questions, help them maybe name certain things, that within itself is incredibly valuable to clients.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then also taking some pressure off of yourself and feeling like I don't also have to go deeper than that if I don't want to or if I'm not qualified to.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not expecting you to to.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if you can give them that space and time, most advisors are really good at asking questions and listening and then doing reflective listening or diving a little bit deeper.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great place to start.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then as you learn more and you learn what feels right, what clients find valuable, it's going to lead you to what that path is for.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's great advice.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: We'll make sure that we put some of those links there in the show notes.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jake, I usually wrap things up by asking all of my guests a very personal question because I'm a therapist and nosy by nature.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Not to be confused with naughty by nature, the rap song.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: I had to clarify that the other day to a client.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that was not yours, not one of yours.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry, don't worry.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was not an EYW client.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: But if you were to go back to your younger professional self when you first started out in the industry, what are maybe one to two pieces of advice that you would give to your younger self when it comes to taking care of maybe your own well-being while building a practice and working, working in the industry?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I will say first off, I know we talked earlier about some of the tactical and technical skills being table stakes, but they're also incredibly important table stakes.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I got my CFP early, I ended up getting my CFA and like doing a lot of the tactical work.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly, I needed that to be at the place now where I don't have to spend a lot of mental energy on some of that.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't want to necessarily discount how important that is.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I wish along the way I did that.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then also did my own self-work a little earlier.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: So what that means is working with someone, whether it's a life coach, a therapist, to just explore how you're wired, why you think a certain way, you know, what are your money stories, how is that showing up in some of your advice?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because as an advisor, whether you want to or not, there can be a lot of triggers that happen in terms of client relationships or things that are said that might cause biases, might cause you to feel a certain way too.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And if you start early on to just investigate why you are a certain way and not through lens or judgment or anything like that, it's gonna show up better at with clients.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna make you a better advisor, and it's just gonna make you a better person too.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that was work I did probably five plus years ago.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I wish if I did that a little bit earlier or had the language to do some of that, I think I would have even expedited my past.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I'm a huge proponent of self-work, obviously.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: No biases here.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely, I think amazing advice is you know being able to look inward and do some of that self-reflection self-work.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jake, I appreciate so much you coming on the show today and sharing all of your wisdom, insights, thoughts, vulnerabilities with everyone.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: For those of you listening today, thank you so much for allowing Jake and I into your ears and into your mind.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep growing, keep going, keep going beyond.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Josh.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
• 40:28
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• 40:33
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• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
• 40:47
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• 40:54
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• 40:57
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• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.