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The Pretrib Rapture Debate | Lee Brainard | Repost · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Well, welcome to the podcast, everybody. I'm here in studio
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  Speaker 2: with Lee Brainer. Welcome Lee Mando.
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  Speaker 1: It's good to be here again. I always love being
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  Speaker 1: with the Prophecy Watchers crew.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we we have a lot to talk about today
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  Speaker 2: because and I'll just want to say right up front
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  Speaker 2: that the idea of the pre trib rapture, as you
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  Speaker 2: know you've spoke a lot on it, is it can.
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  Speaker 2: It brings out sometimes the best and the worst in people.
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  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of people that in general that
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  Speaker 2: speak very aggressively at times against the pre trib rapture.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, has not been your experience.
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  Speaker 1: It has definitely been my experience. I've had a few
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  Speaker 1: of the well known names in the pre rap rapture
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  Speaker 1: camp and well known names in the post trib rapture
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  Speaker 1: camp going after me in public forums like Twitter.
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  Speaker 2: So, I mean, the So what I want to do
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  Speaker 2: today is I want to talk about some of that.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, my heart is to keep things positive.
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  Speaker 1: Uh.
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  Speaker 2: Those that disagree with us, I mean, I've been on
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  Speaker 2: record over and we love them. There are brothers in Christ.
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to Uh, I want to speak lovingly
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  Speaker 2: of them and and and speak in a way that's civil.
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  Speaker 2: But also what I would like to do is to
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  Speaker 2: interact with some of the things that are some of
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  Speaker 2: the criticisms that are happening against the preacher position. I
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  Speaker 2: think all of us we never want to disengage in
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  Speaker 2: in these my I give people to benefit that I
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  Speaker 2: was a pastor a long time. I give people the
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  Speaker 2: benefit the doubt. Uh. Just it's it's easier if I
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  Speaker 2: just assume that their motives are pure. And that's that's
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  Speaker 2: the way I like to live my life. It makes
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  Speaker 2: me feel better. But nevertheless, as it relates to the
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  Speaker 2: substance of the arguments, regardless of maybe how they're said,
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  Speaker 2: I think it would be helpful to begin to address
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  Speaker 2: some of those. But let's let's give a little bit
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  Speaker 2: of background. So a couple of years ago you spoke
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  Speaker 2: at the Preacher conference in Dallas, Tommy Ice, doctor Andy Woods, others,
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  Speaker 2: and at the time you had sent us an article
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  Speaker 2: on the ten sayings that were found you found an ephim.
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  Speaker 2: Let's give a little bit of background of what that is,
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  Speaker 2: of what that was, and how you came to speak
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  Speaker 2: at the pre Trim conference.
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  Speaker 1: Well, originally there had been one Frium, the Syrian rapture
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  Speaker 1: passage that had been known in times past, and it
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  Speaker 1: was familiar to the pre Trim.
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  Speaker 2: It was in English, that's important, yeah, and.
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  Speaker 1: It had been translated out of the out of the
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  Speaker 1: Latin into English and it was well known to people.
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  Speaker 1: So when I discovered Afrium the Syrian rapture passage, while
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  Speaker 1: I was doing research on the Greek word Apostacia for
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  Speaker 1: my book on second Thessalonians two three, I came across
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  Speaker 1: a rapture passage in Afrium the Syrian that was unknown,
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  Speaker 1: at least I couldn't. I didn't recollect it.
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  Speaker 2: I hadn't seen it any in your in the original
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  Speaker 2: Greek here right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, where it's un translated works in Dan Greek. There's
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  Speaker 1: over one hundred and fifty works in Ephriem that either
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  Speaker 1: don't have a published English translation, or there's a translation
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  Speaker 1: that's buried away that someone did for a dissertation, or
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  Speaker 1: something that's hard to reach. There's maybe only a dozen
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  Speaker 1: of his works that have English translations. Okay, yep, But
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  Speaker 1: at any rate, I was going through this research doing
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  Speaker 1: looking for Aposta see it, and I found a rapture
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  Speaker 1: passage I didn't recognize, so I pulled a few books
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  Speaker 1: off my shelf, I did some research on published lists
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  Speaker 1: of known Patristian rapture passages, and I didn't find it.
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  Speaker 1: So I spent about two months going through his works
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  Speaker 1: finding rapture passages. I found over thirty rapture passages that
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  Speaker 1: were clear rapture passages, and ten of them in the
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  Speaker 1: context made it clear it was a pre trip rapture passage.
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  Speaker 1: So I forwarded that stuff to to prophecy watchers, and
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  Speaker 1: it was forwarded to you and we just took off
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  Speaker 1: from there. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So this is important because let's set the stage here
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  Speaker 2: a little bit. Is that oftentimes people who are critical
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  Speaker 2: of the dispensational perspective or the preacher position will make
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  Speaker 2: a claim or an assertion that the preacher position originated
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  Speaker 2: with Jonathan Darby, right, that's as well as Margaret McDonald
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  Speaker 2: eighteen thirties. So we recognize and we go, oh, okay,
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  Speaker 2: well that's fair. Right, that's a fair that's at first glance. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: isn't that That's a fair assertion? Hey, this was started there? Well, okay,
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  Speaker 2: so that being the case because of that assertion, what's
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  Speaker 2: our response.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we should we should let their response, are their
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  Speaker 1: claims stand and say.
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  Speaker 2: Well, let's challenge it, let's challenge it.
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  Speaker 1: And so we would go to the For instance, there's
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  Speaker 1: a whole string of people from the beginning of the
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  Speaker 1: Protestant Reformation up till Jan Darby's time, who didn't hold
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  Speaker 1: modern dispensationalism. Person say, but they held to a pre
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  Speaker 1: tribulation rapture in one form or another. It was. It's
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  Speaker 1: not unknown, it's not unheard of.
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  Speaker 2: So before you go on there, I mean William Watson's
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  Speaker 2: book Dispensationalism Before Darby. That's a great book. So he
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  Speaker 2: he was a what was his he was?
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  Speaker 1: He was?
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  Speaker 2: I know, he's a professor at Colorado Christian University. Do
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  Speaker 2: you remember what his what his discipline was?
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  Speaker 1: No, I sure don't. I thought it was in the
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  Speaker 1: field of history.
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  Speaker 2: But that's what I think too. He was he was
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't theology, but he was history. And so he decided, hey,
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  Speaker 2: I can I know a lot of these these Puritans
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  Speaker 2: that were living in England and others, and so he
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  Speaker 2: wrote this book Dispensation before Darby, uh, covering from the
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  Speaker 2: time of the Reformation primarily in England where he addressed, Hey,
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  Speaker 2: this idea that a dispensational framework began with Darby in
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  Speaker 2: the eighteen thirties is completely false, and so he wrote
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  Speaker 2: a whole book on it, which again it had helped
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  Speaker 2: to challenge this idea, which for him, he's like, well,
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  Speaker 2: let's let's put it to scrutiny. So we have that now. Really,
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  Speaker 2: I would say post Reformation thinking documented in the book,
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  Speaker 2: which helped to challenge that assertion. So I think one
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  Speaker 2: of the claims often that is made is that we
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  Speaker 2: or you or others the researchers, that because we have
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  Speaker 2: no evidence for the preacher position at all in the Bible,
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  Speaker 2: we're trying to go scour the church fathers to find
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  Speaker 2: something and respond to that. Because that's that's really not
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  Speaker 2: true to me.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, it seems it's almost hysterical to me, really,
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  Speaker 1: because I believe in the pre tribulation rapture, because the
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  Speaker 1: clear teaching in the Bible, the interplay that we see
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  Speaker 1: in Revelation chapter four through five, the promise in Revelation
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  Speaker 1: three ten to be kept from the hour of trial,
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  Speaker 1: the promise in John fourteen one through three that the
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  Speaker 1: next time the Lord Jesus interacts physically with the Church.
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  Speaker 1: They're going to Glory, they're going to go to the
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  Speaker 1: New Jerusalem, they're going to go to the Father's House.
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  Speaker 1: They're not going to stay down here on earth. And
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  Speaker 1: we could multiply these references. So my conviction is based
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  Speaker 1: on the scriptures. And the only reason I go to
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  Speaker 1: the church isn't because I need ammunition to prove the
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  Speaker 1: pre tribulation rapture. It's because I need ammunition to overthrow
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  Speaker 1: the objection that the pre trip rapture is not seen
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  Speaker 1: in the early Fathers, and that is the farthest from
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  Speaker 1: the truth you could be.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean because a lot of the work
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  Speaker 2: I got to speak at the pre trib conference as
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  Speaker 2: well on the ol of a discourse and Luke seventeen
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  Speaker 2: and Matthew twenty four and well all the ell of
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  Speaker 2: at discourse in the sense of looking at I rescue, yes,
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  Speaker 2: before the Day of the Lord, and it was a
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  Speaker 2: rescue prior. It was a pre Day of the Lord rescue.
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  Speaker 2: So it's in the Bible. It's there. But again, let
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  Speaker 2: me clarify for those listening that because this has come
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  Speaker 2: up recently. Joel Richardson makes a comment. I actually saw
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  Speaker 2: the Twitter thing myself and I commented there and again,
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  Speaker 2: we love Joel, he's a brother in Christ. But one
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  Speaker 2: of the things that he mentioned on there was that
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  Speaker 2: phrase that, well, the reason that people are trying to
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  Speaker 2: find the Church fathers is because it's not in the Bible.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm like, wholl, I said, that's not the whole story, man,
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  Speaker 2: And I said very nicely, because we should be nice.
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  Speaker 2: But just so people understand is we're not looking at
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  Speaker 2: pre Darby things to defend the view. But when people
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  Speaker 2: make an accusation that it started with Darby, you and
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  Speaker 2: I have talked about a lot that it's a myth.
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  Speaker 2: It's a myth that kind of refuses to die. It
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  Speaker 2: continues to continue to be shared on the internet, social media.
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  Speaker 2: So our goal is simply to go and say, just
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  Speaker 2: like William Watson did, hey guys, that's fair. It's a
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  Speaker 2: fair statement up front, let's challenge it and it's false.
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  Speaker 2: And so here you are doing research. You found the
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  Speaker 2: ten refferences in Greek Ephraim, which hasn't been out there,
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  Speaker 2: which I think is valuable research. That's why Tommy Ice
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  Speaker 2: at the time, Doctor Tommy Ice, when I remember going
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  Speaker 2: to dinner with him and I said, did you read
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  Speaker 2: Lee's paper? And he said, you know, Mondo, I get
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  Speaker 2: a lot of these things. And at first glance, I
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  Speaker 2: was like, no, wait, I don't believe a second of it.
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  Speaker 2: But he said that he's written. He wrote a scholarly
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  Speaker 2: article where he had thirty five references to pre Darby
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  Speaker 2: church Father, you know, kind of things outside of William
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  Speaker 2: Watson's work. And he said, but once I got into
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  Speaker 2: Lee's work, he said, it's ten more at least that
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  Speaker 2: I can add to my thirty five. He goes, but
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  Speaker 2: I realized that the work being done by Lee, in
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  Speaker 2: these untranslated works, they're just there. I mean again, thousands
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  Speaker 2: and thousands of pages. He said. I was so compelled
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  Speaker 2: that I gave up my spot, Yeah, my own spot
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  Speaker 2: speaking at the pre trib conference to fast track him in,
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  Speaker 2: to let people know not only of the work that
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  Speaker 2: you're doing, but also the magnitude of what you found there.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And the work has continued. We've discovered another nine
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  Speaker 1: pre trip passages and Eusebius, as far as I know,
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  Speaker 1: no one knew that Eusebius was pre trip because his
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  Speaker 1: few works translated into English don't make it clear.
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  Speaker 2: So who do we have let's talk about this assertion
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  Speaker 2: is that nope, this was never in the Church Fathers.
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  Speaker 2: So let's step back for a moment, because we believe
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  Speaker 2: it's in the scripture. We believe again all the you know,
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  Speaker 2: Luke seventeen, John fourteen, you referenced all of them. But
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  Speaker 2: let's also let's also set the stage a little bit
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  Speaker 2: for the history of the Church Fathers. We recognize that
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  Speaker 2: we now we're walking on the shoulders of two thousand
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  Speaker 2: years of church history and doctrine and formulation and other things,
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  Speaker 2: and the analysis of scripture. I don't expect a first
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  Speaker 2: or second century theologian to have full developed theologies like
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  Speaker 2: we do, systematic theologies like I mean, you get books,
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  Speaker 2: they're volumes, right, volumes you can get of systematic theology.
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  Speaker 2: They didn't have that. They were new, they didn't have
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  Speaker 2: the other giants. They only had one hundred years of
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  Speaker 2: maybe some studying it.
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  Speaker 1: Well, that's exactly right. For instance, we're looking at iron
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  Speaker 1: As here today and we're working our way there. But
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  Speaker 1: in iron Aus's day, which is in the second century early,
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  Speaker 1: they had not yet worked through the entire Trinitarian controversy.
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  Speaker 1: They hadn't worked through a lot of the controversies on
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  Speaker 1: very fundamental doctrines of the faith, so they hadn't worked
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  Speaker 1: through the whole eschatology dispute yet either.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, that's I'm glad to bring up
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  Speaker 2: the trinity because there's a lot of people that are
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  Speaker 2: critical of that. But the fact of the matter, it
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  Speaker 2: wasn't that the fourth century Church, you know, at the
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  Speaker 2: council and they see, I just decided to create the Trinity.
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  Speaker 2: But what they're doing is they're looking at the Bible
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  Speaker 2: where you know, in the name of the Father Son
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  Speaker 2: and the Holy Spirit, you're like, well, that's name is singular,
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  Speaker 2: but the Father Son is plural. And then in you
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  Speaker 2: know John one one, you have all these passages at
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  Speaker 2: the early Church is trying to come out of this
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  Speaker 2: Jewish framework of monotheism, which is very strict, and all
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  Speaker 2: of a sudden they're going back and going, oh, look
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  Speaker 2: at that. There are there are hints of this of this.
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  Speaker 2: Try you and God and the Old Testament. You know
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  Speaker 2: Proverbs thirty about who's the Son?
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  Speaker 1: Do you know his name?
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  Speaker 2: You know Isaiah nine to six, the Mighty God. So
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  Speaker 2: you have all these passages John one one in the
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  Speaker 2: beginning was the word. The word was with God, the
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  Speaker 2: word was God. So you have all these things that
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  Speaker 2: they're wrestling with, and I actually give them, I give
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  Speaker 2: them credit because plus, apart from just simply trying to live,
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  Speaker 2: you know, in a in a very i would say primitive,
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  Speaker 2: but a much more difficult society, they're wrestling with these
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  Speaker 2: theological challenges. How do we how do we believe in
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  Speaker 2: one God? But yet we see this text reveal the Father,
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  Speaker 2: Son and the Holy Spirit.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And when you come to the prophecy
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  Speaker 1: issues here you run into the whole controversy. If you
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  Speaker 1: don't have settled theological terminology, you don't have a settled
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  Speaker 1: eschatological systematic theology. And then you come to the issue
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  Speaker 1: of a distinction between Israel and the Church, and that
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  Speaker 1: you're going to have the Church facing one set of
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  Speaker 1: circumstances in the last days, and then God's going to
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  Speaker 1: return to Israel and they're going to face another set
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  Speaker 1: of circumstances. And how are you going to clarify that,
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  Speaker 1: How are you going to qualify it, how are you
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  Speaker 1: going to describe it?
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  Speaker 2: Yep, So let's bring up another passage which I think
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  Speaker 2: is fascinating is the seventy weeks of Daniel Daniel nine,
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  Speaker 2: but he's giving them, he's given the angels explaining it
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  Speaker 2: to Daniel. But then in Daniel twelve he says, this
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  Speaker 2: is you know, six hundred BC sealed up Daniel, because
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  Speaker 2: at the time of the end, it'll knowledge will be increased.
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  Speaker 1: Ama.
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  Speaker 2: So we have this recognition that the first century, second century,
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  Speaker 2: some of their eschatology was you know, it was varied,
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  Speaker 2: and so we expect that as we get closer to
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  Speaker 2: the end and Israel comes back as a nation, which
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  Speaker 2: happened in forty eight, that now all of a sudden
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  Speaker 2: we begin to understand more. But there were those, there
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  Speaker 2: were those. As I give a presentation another place on
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  Speaker 2: just some of the commentaries before, like a eighteen hundreds,
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  Speaker 2: they recognize Israel's coming back as a nation. That's a
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  Speaker 2: straight value, that's a straightforward reading of scripture. But what
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  Speaker 2: we do see now is in the last couple hundred years,
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  Speaker 2: as we see Israel become a nation, we go now
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  Speaker 2: we can see more how the framework is works for
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  Speaker 2: this end of the age scenario.
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  Speaker 1: That's exactly right, because you can't really have some of
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  Speaker 1: the prophecies about Israel in the last days, there's really
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  Speaker 1: nothing underneath. If Israel isn't there as a physical nation.
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  Speaker 1: They start with the assumption that Israel is in the
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  Speaker 1: land as a nation.
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  Speaker 2: Yep. So let's go to you know, one hundred and
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  Speaker 2: twenty eight or you know, one hundred and fifty eighty
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  Speaker 2: iron ass or whatever. So to two hundred where he
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  Speaker 2: was around two hundred. Is that he's about one fifty
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  Speaker 2: to two.
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  Speaker 1: Hundred the mid second century.
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  Speaker 2: So the Barkok revolt has already been completed in one
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  Speaker 2: thirty five. Ye. The israel Is now they're completely eliminated
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  Speaker 2: from the land under threat of death. So for a theologian,
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  Speaker 2: they're looking over at Israel and the man Israel's gone, gone, dust,
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  Speaker 2: been of history, exiled to all the nations, as Jesus
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  Speaker 2: said in Luke twenty one. So for them, I can imagine,
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  Speaker 2: and we see this with Augustin later in four hundred
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  Speaker 2: and eighty, he's recognizing, oh, this is replacement theology. Israel
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  Speaker 2: is now all the promises in the Old Testament that
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  Speaker 2: were unfulfilled, which they recognized they were unfulfilled, all those
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  Speaker 2: are going to be fulfilled. Somewhere sometime in the Church,
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  Speaker 2: in this new work of God doing in the Church age.
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  Speaker 2: So we can see why, in some ways, based on
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  Speaker 2: their I would call it current event hermeneutics, that they recognize, Oh,
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  Speaker 2: Israel's gone. So for God to be true and faithful,
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  Speaker 2: those prophises must be fulfilled, and the only way they
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  Speaker 2: can be fulfilled is in the church versus them saying, hey,
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  Speaker 2: in some future time, God's going to bring Israel back.
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  Speaker 2: That was inconceivable to them.
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  Speaker 1: And what's interesting is it wasn't inconceivable in iron Aus
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  Speaker 1: this time, because he writes very clearly. For instance, in
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  Speaker 1: Heresies chapter five thirty four to one, which is on
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  Speaker 1: page three. Here he says, I make the observation here
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  Speaker 1: the iron As regards God as having two redemption programs.
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  Speaker 1: And he says, he who in the New Testament raises
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  Speaker 1: up from the stones children under Abraham, is he who
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  Speaker 1: will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall
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  Speaker 1: be saved from all the nations. Jeremiah says, behold the
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  Speaker 1: days come, saith the Lord that they shall no more
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  Speaker 1: say the Lord lives, who led the children of Israel
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  Speaker 1: from the north and from every region whither they had
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  Speaker 1: been driven. He will restore them to their own land,
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  Speaker 1: which he gave to their fathers. So he makes a
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  Speaker 1: clear distinction between the New Testament program and the Old
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  Speaker 1: Testament saints being gathered again. And if you think about it,
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  Speaker 1: the New Testament program is obviously dominated by the Gentiles,
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  Speaker 1: but those Old Testament promises of gathering Israel, they're gathering
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  Speaker 1: the physical seed of Jacob.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, what I see here, this is a great I'm
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  Speaker 2: seeing some of this for the first time only because
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  Speaker 2: here you have something being written again in the mid
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  Speaker 2: second century. I'm going to include this in my presentation.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't have this before because this idea of the
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: spiritual seed. We know that Galatians three the spiritual seed
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: of Abraham. We know that we're part of that. Ye,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: you know, he's the father of the faithful. But you
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: still have the physical seed or the ethnic seed of Abraham,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: which is Israel specifically, as we know the rest of
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: the passages of scripture about them being restored. For him
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: to say he'll restore them to their own land, that's
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: absolutely incredible that he understood that distinction.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And so this is really part of
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the case that we can use to demonstrate that irene
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Aus really did hold a pre tribulation rapture. He made
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: a distinction between the church saints of this age and
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: the Israel that's after the Church is out of the picture,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: as well as having some pre trip rapture picture passages
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: that we'll look at in a moment.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: So let let look. Let me do another thing here
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: for the for the listeners, because when we think about dispensationalism,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: it's a dirty word in many many camps. But I
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: want people to understand that dispensationalism, at least as it
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: relates to the key pillars. You have a literal hermoneutic. Yeah,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: you take scriptures straightforward. If the prophecies of Jesus' first
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: coming were literal, the prophecies of his second comer in literal,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I mean that's to me, that's very expected. The second
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: distinction is or the second pillar is that the Church
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: and is Well are distinct, absolutely. And the third pillar
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: is that God does everything for his glory. So that's it.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: There's three. So you can have dispensationalism is at the
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: core those three things. Now from there you can have
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: a calvinist dismissationalists. You can have Armenian dispensationalists, you can
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: have a charismatic dismensations. You can have somebody that is
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: baptizing babies as a dispensation. I mean, so we don't
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: want to look at those like a charismatic as an
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: example a theology as defining dismensationals. It isn't, that's right,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: But so oftentimes people will throw oh dismissations, they're all Calvinists. Well,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be one of those, or they're
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: all Armini and well I don't want to be one
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: of those. That has nothing really to do with dismensational thinking.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: It has to do with that literal hormonetic again, a
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: distinction between church and is well and he does all
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: things for the glory of God. So with that as
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: a as a backdrop, when you see what iron As
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: is saying here, this is very dismensational, absolutely in the
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: sense he's taken things literal that would be the only
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: way he would get there. And he's making a distinction
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: between the spiritual seed and the physical seed.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, we've got another passage here, let's see,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: it's on the last page here, page four, and I
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: bring out well actually it starts on the page.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Three, number four there on the bottom.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Yep. So we are going to be looking at where
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Ironais sees Israel and the tribulation. And so he's up
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the passages in Hereses five, section twenty five point four,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and we read here a king of a most fierce
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: countenance shall arise, one understanding dark questions and exceedingly powerful,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: full of wonders, and he shall corrupt, direct and influence,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: and put strong men down. And then and I put
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: it in italics here the Holy people. Likewise, so he's
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: God of Vendetta here against the Holy People. But he's
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: going to qualify who he means by the Holy People.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: And then he points out that the time that his
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice under God.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: And then clarifies again in the midst of the week,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: the abomination of desolation shall be brought into the temple.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Even under the consummation of the time, shall the desolation
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: be complete. Now three years and six months constitute the
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: half week.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: So this is Daniel nine. Yeah, I mean it's amazing.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: So basically what he's saying is he's taking the return
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: to the temple and the return of the sacrifices literally,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: and he qualifies what saints. He's talking about those that
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: are offering a pure sacrifice under God. This is talking
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: about the physical nation of Israel returned under God.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: So let me ask, do you the word pure? There
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: is there any other nuance to that in the sense
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: of because I imagine iron As probably would have a
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: difficulty of thinking that the sacrifice from a new Covenant
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: perspective would be pure. Is there any other who offer
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: a pure sacrifice? And you know, you see where I'm
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: going in that.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, what I would gather is he was so
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: close to the Apostolic age. I mean, Irene asked was
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: a disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: John himself. So the very apostle who had written the
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Book of Revelation, who put the capstone on the prophetic
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: revelation for all the scriptures, had personally communicated the core
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: dispensational understanding to Polycarp. Polycarp had delivered that to iron Ass.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I suspect that iron As really did understand maybe in
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: a simpler form than we do. But God was going
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: to go back to Israel that they have seven more
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: years under the law and that God is going to
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: bring the new Covenant salvation to them. And I think
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: that's where he's going.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, in him to say that the sacrifice and
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: libation shall be taken away. I mean, this is Daniel
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: nine twenty seven. I mean, this is this is clear
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: that he's referencing that passage and that he gets it
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: so right so early is very impressive. Well, let's do
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: a couple of things here, because I think this is helpful.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: So you you we talked about your first presentation at
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: the pre trib and then you you gave another presentation
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: skeletal thing of iron Ais. But what's been happening recently again,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: some some big time guys are coming in there and
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: they're being critical, which is again it's fine. I don't
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: mind criticism. Hopefully everybody's nice about it. But let's talk
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: about some of the the the the methodology of some
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: of these criticisms that you you have here. Let's talk
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: about number one down there or number two so on
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: the bottom page one, yep, let's talk about what Let's
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: let's look you and are going to do another uh
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: presentation on the alleged problems with the pre trib We
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: want to address those we like, we like objection objections,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: but let's talk about some of the ways in which
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: people are criticizing here.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, basically what I see is whenever error is
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: attacking truth, they use the unholy trinity, okay, and uh,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: that involves there's always a mantra, there's always a selective
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: use of evidence or a proof text theology, and then
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: there's argument against the man at harmony. This is the
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: unholy trinity of false doctrine. And to me, like when
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: the Bible says you can know false teachers, we really
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: have two tests to understand false teachers. Not one because
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: we already know there's a test of okay, who's got
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: the best exegetical arguments from the scripture. But the second
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: test is those that learn their doctrine from the Father
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: of lies learn how to defend that doctrine from the
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: accuser of the brethren. And there's a little bit doesn't
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: mean they're not real believers, but there's an element of
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: harshness in their dealings and an element of unfairness, and
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: so they always fall back on a mantra that's defended
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: with proof texts, and then they argue against the person
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: rather than present exegesus.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean again, we don't. I'm glad you
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: mentioned that. With that, we're not saying to anybody this
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: agrees with us or unbelievers, but by any means. But
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: the fact of the matter is, and we we've said this,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: you and I have talked about this where we all
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: believe Jesus Christ's Lord and savior absolutely and uh, and
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: some of these other issues, as important as they are. Uh,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: you don't have to believe in the preacher rapture to
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: be saved, you absolutely not. Yeah. So we call these
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: nonsalvafic issues important issues. And so when when when we
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: come to these, we we go, hey, guys, make sure
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: that you're being fair, because I want to be that way.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: I want to be I don't want to attack the person.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: That's not a fair argument. I don't want to bring
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: his character into play. He could be the worst guy
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: in the world. Uh, maybe he's out sleeping around or
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: he's doing drugs, but he's got good theology. So the
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: fact of the matter is, I want to interact with
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: his argument and now his person that's between him and
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: the Lord. They're gonna work that out. But if if
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: he if he makes a theological comments, I'm gonna engage
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: the argument itself. That's exactly so, you know, so when
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: what what I do see oftentimes is those comments that
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: people make that they you know, they'll start attacking the person.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Oh you're a pre trip me. We know how you are,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: and you're like, really, come on, can to be nice.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I just had a guy recently. He was trying to
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: trying to engage me into some eschatology uh comments, and
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: I said, sure, I like talking theology. But about three
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: emails in because I didn't agree, all, I'm going to hell.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: It was just it was very I was like, wow,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: just because I don't agree with exactly what you think
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: that the Great White Throne judgment's going to be that
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: now I'm on my way to Hell. I said, I
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: thought my salvation was based on my faith in Jesus.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: But so I was like, hey, man, you know what,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm done. It's not that I don't like to
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: discuss these things, but if you're gonna get all angry
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: and start putting hell fire and everybody I go, I'm
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: I'm not interested. I said, you know, the the goal
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: is this is on teen is thirteen two. If I
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: know all mysteries, If I have perfect theology but I
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: don't have love, that's right, I'm nothing.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: And when we come to the theological debate and you
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: really nailed it, we can leave the character out of
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: the question because only that matters is who's presented the
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: truth of the scriptures most accurately. And I've discovered that
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: when you're in a conversation, whether it's formal debate, whether
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: it's just a living room conversation over a cup of coffee,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: if one party gets frustrated and they can't answer point
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: by point with what the Bible says, and they start
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: to lose their traction, they will jump into the argument
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: against a man, argument at hominem.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: And these are you know, I studied logic, which is
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: good and bad because my poor daughter's growing up it
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: was always specificity was like the favorite word of the
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: family and specific city girls specificity. But they learned in
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: the sense of to think carefully and with precision. And
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: so you think about again the fallacy of the ad
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: homine market. Well, if I'm not getting this way, I'm
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: just going to attack the person's character. Well, that's not
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: doing it. But also one of the other things that
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: you see is you have written here there are claims
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: that no scholar has ever believed that Ironeus was pre
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: trip Well, that's the fallacy of rooting to authority. So
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: what does that have to do with things? Because no
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: scholar agrees with this? Now there's a certain level of
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: humility that Okay, well, I don't want to be some
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: loaner in my theology. But we know that after the
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: New Testament was written and finished, theologians came up with
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: new discoveries or new ideas all the time. So somebody
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: had to discover it as being new. And so the
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: real question is not whether I can quote a scholar.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's helpful because maybe they've done additional work. The
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: question is is it true? Is it biblical? Does it
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: match good exegetical methodology?
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I and I agree. For instance, when you bring
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: up this question and they'll say, Okay, no scholar that
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: I'm aware of has ever held that iron As was
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: pre trib Well, what's funny to me is okay, I
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: just do a little quick Google search on my front
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: page on the top ten results, I get several well
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: known names that were mentioned the iron as.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Is pre trib okay.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: But what's also interesting is I would say, Okay, well,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't personally know a single theologian that's read
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: the entirety of iron Ass's heresies from the first chapter
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: to the beginning of the first chapter, all the way
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: to the first book, all the way to the end
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: of the fifth book, read it in English, and then
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: worked through the Latin and the Greek of the passages
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: that were difficult to understand to make sure that they
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: had the they were actually being faithful to what the
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: intent of the author was. And so so, if you
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: don't have people that have actually worked all the way
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: through iron Ass's ecclesiology and eschatology and work through the
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: whole work and came up with conclusions on the eschatology,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: and came up with conclusions on the ecclesiology, and these
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: things harmonize and balance with each other. If you don't
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: have that, then really all you're talking about is you're
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: just throwing names out there. But they're they're scholars in
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: their own right, but they're not necessarily a scholar in
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: iron ass.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: See, and and well even let's let's put another angle
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: on it. You have people that maybe are a scholar
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: in iron as, but they're not a scholar and systematic
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: theology exactly. And so now it takes a very balanced
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: approach to come to the place of going, okay, that's
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: why you know, when I was in college and seminary,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I try to be very broad, right because and as
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: a pastor, you just you can't help a bit try
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: to be broad because you're pastoring, so there's all kinds
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: of breadth to what people ask you. So you kind
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: of have to be a general practitioner of things. But
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: in reality, I look, I think about the work that
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: you're doing. So let's say you take an irony as
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: scholar who's reading the Latin the Greek, but he doesn't
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: understand what we just mentioned earlier, the distinctions of dispensational thinking.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: He maybe comes from a covenantal perspective or whatever. So
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: as he's reading it, he's going to see something totally different.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: But not he's not going to see that that distinction
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: that we saw earlier between the spiritual seed, which is
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: a new covenant idea and the physical seed, and that's
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: very dispensational. So if he doesn't have that, if he
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: lumps them all into one group, then he's not gonna
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: see those things aren't going to jump out at him.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right, and he's gonna miss him. They're gonna
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: have the same struggles reading Ironaus that they have reading
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: the Old Testament and the New Testament. Yep.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: So let's let's let's talk about that for a minute, because, uh,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: one of the things that that I like, For example,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I have a I have a rough reform study Bible.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: I got this big fat Bible. Some people see it
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: on television like what bible is that. I go, well,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: it's a reform study Bible edited by Ras sproll And.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: And it's not that I agree with Arcie Sproul on
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: his eschatology. But the reason I got it is because
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure that I was reading him accurately.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: So when I open up Matthew twenty four and I
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: have his book that he wrote the Last Days according
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: to Jesus, I'm like, Okay, I don't want to misrepresent
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: this guy. He's my brother I love. I'm going to
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: see him even he's there now. But I don't want
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: to be one of those guys that misrepresents the other
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: perspective and we don't have all the answers. But on
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: that note, you have this confusion sometimes with the word church.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: That's right, So talk about that and talk about maybe
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: the history. Again we understand from the dispensational perspective, church
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: is very distinct. But let's talk about how the word
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: church sometimes is misconstrued or confused.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, for instance, in modern dispensationalism, when we use
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: the word church, we are referring not to all the
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: saints of all the ages. We are referring only to
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: the saints that basically from the time of Christ forwards
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: to the tonically Pentecostal to the saints of this age.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: And we think the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation saints,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: we would put them in under the heading of Israel
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: and maybe gentile proselytes to Israel. It's a very different idea. Now,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: if you're in the reform camp, they use the word
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: church that collects everyone from Adam all the way to
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: the end of the age. It's a very it's like.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Anybody, it's ever been a believer, it's considered the church
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: for them, and and that that creates a lot of confusion,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: especially when we're trying to have conversations, as you said,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: about the church, we're like, no, no, no, we're talking
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: for pentecost on and not even So. This is the
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: other thing too, is the word the word saints, because
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: you see that in Daniel right, the Saints will be
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: overcome by the Antichrist, and they're like, oh see that's
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: the church because we're saints. Paul says, we're saints, right,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Oliver to the saints at Philip Philippi. You also see
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: the word elect. That's right. So people need to understand
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: that the word elect, the word believer, the word say.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: We would all agree from a dismisational perspective.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: That's exactly that.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Those are the broadest terms you can have, and they
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: mean believers of all time. But when we talk about church,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Jesus said in Matthew sixteen, I will build my church.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: It's a future thing that that began at Pentecost, and
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: the saints, the believers during the tribulation, they're not part
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: of the church.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. See, so this is when you go to Matthew
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: twenty four, and Jesus sends the angels to go to
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: gather the elect They say, see Matthew twenty four to
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: twenty eight. After the tribulation, he sends his angels that's
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: the church, you go. No, no, no. The elect is a
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: broad word. It means believer of any age, So that
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: doesn't it's a it's not a slam dunk against a
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: pretri position exactly.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: And one of the difficulties we face is Irenaeus in
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: book five and chapter twenty six, Section one has a
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: passage that's the well known post trip passage for I'm
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: and it has the church is being put to flight.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: So he has the church in the tribulation.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Let's let's read it, let's do it. Let's pull that out. Well,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: I actually don't have that from our conversation. Okay, yeah,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: so the church is put to flights. What does that mean?
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Then let's let's what's going on there.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: So what we have to understand is, and I'm going
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: to bring this out in an article I'm gonna put
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: up on my website, but Ireneus has several passages in
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: which he defines what he means by the church. So
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: we believe the Church is just the saints of this age,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: and the contrast from all the other ages, Ireneus is
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: a little broader. He has the church is a technical
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: term for all the seed of Abraham, the spiritual seed
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: and the physical seed. And he makes a clear distinction
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: between God's working with the gentiles of this age and
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: going to be returning to Israel. So as soon as
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: you go down that route, the fact that he has
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: the church and the tribulation, you have to decide, okay,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: is he talking about the spiritual seed of Abraham or
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: the physical seat of Abraham. Now, if you're going to
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: get bent out a shape over the use of a
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: particular word, over terminology, you're going to make a debate here.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: He says church, He must mean what we mean by church.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is you have to
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: go to his context. You have to go to his
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: other writings, his other writings to qualify or clarify what
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: he means by the word church.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: See, this is some of the other thing that we
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: were talking about. In the sense of approaches. All of
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: us can do this. I know I've been guilty of this,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: guilty of proof texting. Yeah, I mean which is natural.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: You know, give me a verse, that give me verse.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: That's kind of the way that we should live. But
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: we also could say, give me verse, and then we
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: selectively present a verse, and that we minimize the other
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: verses that might shed increased light on how we're taking
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: that wrong. You see this a lot in the trinitarian debate.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: You just pull a verse out there's one God, and
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: then you go, okay, well what do we do with that?
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: There's one God. That's it. That's it, there's no trinity,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: and so or Jesus says my father is greater than I.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: There it is proof text done. Jeovah's witnesses will do this,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: and you go, well, what's the context? How is that written?
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: And is there other passes? What does it mean? Over See,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: if all we had was that verse my father is
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: greater than I, we would miss that he's talking in
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: his servant role, in his humanity versus his dity, which
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: he didn't set aside. His d he set aside the
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: prerogatives of his deity, and Philo graphs too. So but
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: here we have a proof texting problem, and we don't
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: want to be guilty of that. But in this instance,
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: if we take the one verse the Church is put
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: to flight, without taking into consideration the other things that
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Irnas wrote about the fullness of what he means, we
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: would miss that, and that would be honestly, that would
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: be a very powerful verse for a post trib or whatever.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: But now that we see the rest of the context,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: you're like, no, it blunts it.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: That's right. And so we already looked at passages where
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: we see that he has a clarification or a distinction
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: between Israel and the Church. But he's actually got three
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: pretty I think they're clear pre trip rapture passages, and
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: the first one is on page two here.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's jump into some of these because this is
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: this is great.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Here's the first one. It's in again. All this stuff
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: is from the Heresies, and this is Heresies Book five,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Chapter five, Section one.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: So before you get in there for a second, if
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: people want to look at this, are these things that
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: you're looking at? In English or in Greek?
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: This you can get the whole translation of all five
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: books in English easily. Just google Irons plus English and
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: you'll bring up several different websites that have the full
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: English translation.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, so what you're doing here is simply in English.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: So people wanted to go look this up. Yep, they
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: can for themselves. Okay, so five point against Sarres's five
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: point five point one.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Yep. For Enoch, when he pleased God was translated in
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: the same body in which he did please him, thus
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just Elijah
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: too when he was caught up in the substance of
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: his natural form, thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in their
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: way of their body being translated and caught up. And
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: then I put a little ellipses in there because I
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: skipped the section. And then we have wherefore also the
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: elders who were disciples of the apostles. So he's talking
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: about people like Polycarpent Clemate tell us that those who
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: were translated were translated to that place, for paradise had
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: been prepared for righteous men such as have the spirit,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: in which Paul, also the Apostle, when he was caught up,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: heard words that are unspeakable as regard us in our
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: present condition, and that they shall and that there shall
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: they who have been translated remain until the consummation of
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: all things. So what he's talking about, you have the
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: initial anticipation of a few individuals like Enoch that went
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: to heaven, and they're gonna wait there until the very end.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: But the translation of the Just also is coming, and
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: they're gonna go to heaven. This is John fourteen one,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: two three. They're gonna go to heaven and they're gonna
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: wait there with the Just until the end. He's making
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: a distinction between the rapture and the second coming. Another one,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: and this is the common one that if people know
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: about any pretrip passages in iron Ais, this is the
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: one they know, which is five point twenty nine point one. Therefore,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: up from this, it is said there shall be tribulations
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: such as has not been since the beginning. Neither shall be,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: for this is the last contest of the righteous, in
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: which when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption. And
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: so we see here there's a removal of the church suddenly,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: and then once that removal has taken place, then there's
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: going to be a great tribulation, which is the last
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: contest of the righteous. Makes you if you start with
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: the assumption there's only one second coming. There's only one coming.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: There's one gathering of the believers. You're gonna see here
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: that you want the church to be in the tribulation.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: You understand there's a distinction, and you understand that ironeis
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: makes a distinction. And now you're going to have the
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: church going up and then you're gonna have more saints
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: in the tribulation.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's that's the important thing, is to see
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: here that there is a second group of saints, of
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: believers from every tribe, tongue, nation. Right Revelation seven, you
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: see you see people getting saved during the tribulation period,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: post rapture lots yea, and so we One of the
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: things that's interesting too is when you compare Matthew sixteen
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: at the gates of Hell shall not prevail or against
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: the Church. But yet in Revelation thirteen seven you have
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: that the Antichrist has given authority to prevail over the
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: saints or over the over the people at that time.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: And so that's one of the big dispensations distinctives to say.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: And Daniel eight says the same thing that you have
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: that the believers being annihilated during the tribulation period, which
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: is so different than what you have in the other
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: passages of scripture about us not being a destined to wrath,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: appointed to wrath. We're delivered from the wrath to come,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: and that we're going to go be with Jesus. You know,
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: we're going to skip the whole hour of trial our
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: relation three ten. So that's very important to see that
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: they're here. He's clearly mentioning this second group of righteous,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: of elect believers, of saints, however you want to phrase it.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have the same kind of tension going on
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: here between the rapture and the Second Coming that the
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: decision the apause when they were first dealing with the
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Lord Jesus at his first coming, and the Old Testament
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: prophets had the same thing. How do you reconcile the
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: reigning Messiah passages with the suffering Messiah passages and so
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: all the way up until the time of the cross Lord.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: At this time, are you going to bring the kingdom?
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of confusion, and I
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: think God got in his brilliance puts you know, jose
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: says that a little bit here, a little bit there,
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: precept upon precept, you know, in order to hide in
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: plain sight his plan. It's there. When we look in hindsight,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: we go, oh, look at that. It was obvious yep,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: And God say yeah. Now then hindsight when he brings
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: it together by historical reference. I think there's some of
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: that we'll see. Most people will see as we come
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: at the second coming, and we'll look back and go, yeah,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: it was there the whole time. But we see through
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: glass darkly.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Well, we got one more rapture passage here. Perhaps we
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: should go through that.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: This is in Hereses five point thirty one to two.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: For as the Lord went away in the midst of
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: the shadow of death, where the souls of the dead were,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: was taken up, it is manifest that the souls of
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: the disciples, also upon whose account the Lord underwent, these things,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: then receiving their bodies and rising in their entirety, that
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: thus into the presence of God. So here the pattern
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: with the resurrection of the Lord was to rise from
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: the dead and descend to glory. And we see the
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: same pattern that is going to happen in the resurrection
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: with the Church. And if you compare this with the
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: other rapture passages, he's here talking, he's on the John
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: fourteen track. We're gonna we're gonna ascend, rise, ascend from
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: the grave in resurrection and then rise to heaven and
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: we're gonna await there.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, let's keep let's keep rocking here.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, so when we put this together, now
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: we've we touched on earlier. We touched on that iron
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: as saw two redemption programs, and we looked at here.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: Now there's a pre tribulation rapture. So if you have
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: a rapture where people are delivered prior to a time
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: of tribulation, and you've got distinct programs. You've got the
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: spiritual seed, which is the gentile saints of this age,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: and you have the physical seed, which is the Lord
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: returning to the nation of Israel and gathering them. Now
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: we're looking at something that's clearly dispensational. And then we
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: have uh, there's passages which we looked at, and we
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: can take another return back to them. But there are
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: saints in the Tribulation that are Jewish saints, and that
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: passage we looked at earlier five twenty five four where
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: the Holy People who are the ones the saints that
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: are put to flight, who offer a pure sacrifice to God.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: And then it goes on to mention that the contexts
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: from Daniel nine twenty four through twenty seven with the Temple.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: So I think it's very interesting. You've got the distinction
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: between the two classes of redeemed saints, You've got a
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: rapture before the tribulation, you've got saints in the tribulation,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: and you've got passages in iron As that qualify that
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: these are Jews in the tribulation. So I don't see
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: how you can escape the conclusion that iron Aus was
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: pre tribulation. The only way you can avoid that is
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: to ignore all the qualifying passages and just do a
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: proof text passage where you say, here we see the
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Church in the Tribulation.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: And you know, again, I think that I don't want
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: to put on any of the Church father the turn
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: the very specific modern nuanced label right of pre trip.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: Like I mean again, you could go go to Dallas.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: You can get all the pre trib you want, in
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: the sense you get a degree in historical theology, and
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: you could have this fine tuned, you know, all the
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: modern systemization of pretributational or dispensational doctrine. You're not saying
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: that he would pass the test, right, that iron As
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: would passed, But at the nugget level, at the seed level,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: at the at the basics, or even at the foundational level,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: clearly he is.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Yep. Yeah, he has the core precepts
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: that make a person dispensational versus a replacement theology. Yeah,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: but certainly his dispensationalism falls well, it's not modern development.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: But again that's why I think at the beginning, I
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: really wanted to say, hey, at the core level, this
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: is what you have, this distinction between Israel the literal
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: harmontic and everything's done for the glory of God, and
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: that that if you make the distinct between at least
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: the first two. For sure, if you take a little
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: hormone and the distinction, you'll end up you have to
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: end up as a preacher person because you'll recognize the
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: purpose of the seventieth Week of Daniel.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean to deal with Israel and give the
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: people the physical seed of Jacob a second chance to
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: embrace the New Covenant in Christ's blood. Because Israel cannot
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: receive her promises, her land or temple or throne promises,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: kingdom promis, can't inherit any of them. Apart from the
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: New Covenant. The Old Covenant can only condemn, it cannot save.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Yep, Absolutely, I mean Book of Hebrews. All right, let's
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: keep moving.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Well. I think with this we have actually gone through
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: all the material here as far as presenting the preacher
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: of passages, presenting the distinction between Israel and the ch