Latest / Skin Anarchy / Decoding Beauty Packaging Design: Juan Campderá Lozano's Insights into Sustainability and Luxury Industry Trends

Transcript

Decoding Beauty Packaging Design: Juan Campderá Lozano's Insights into Sustainability and Luxury Industry Trends · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to Anarchy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is your whole system and I'm very, very excited about an episode today because we get to learn all about the packaging world and learn it from, you know, a true expert in the industry and who really understands this world and trying to navigate you know as consumers is can be very difficult, right?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many products out there.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I often say, you know, there's a lot of packaging out here in the skincare industry because sometimes the formulas may not be different, but the packaging is just what really entices you.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Juan Lozano, who is the founding partner and CEO at Activa brand experience design.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: And he's also had over 25 years of experience in this industry and pretty much knows everything you can imagine about the packaging world, especially when it comes to you know, like prestige brands and really anything.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show, Juan.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited and honored to host you.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoy learning from you on LinkedIn.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pleasure for me, and uh yeah, well, just ready to share whatever uh it comes and uh and to talk about the packaging and all the beauty which is as you said is blooming nowadays and and now it's expanding to many, many, many areas of culture.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And well, it's a passion for me.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean I always follow your LinkedIn posts, and they're always very, very you know, not only interesting for me from the content side, but you post so much of the most beautiful pictures of the packaging, and I I learned so much from your posts, and I am just really excited to chat with you about this world, you know, because I think and I mentioned it in the intro that as consumers, like for me as a consumer, when I buy product, a lot of times it is because of the appreciation I have for the packaging.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like it's just so beautiful, it captivates you, and you know, they always have this thing, right?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: With like love it love at first sight or whatever.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think a lot of us consumers experience that with product.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to get started, Juan, if you could tell us a little bit a little bit about yourself and your background because you have so much experience.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you get started in the packaging world?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I started uh as a product designer nearly more than yeah, 35, 30 years ago.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I have to be sincere, packaging was not my main idea and doing beauty and working on in all the categories of P2 was not my my main idea on design.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I started as a many designer as well, as a freelance.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I started as freelance.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I did my studies first in in Spain, in Barcelona, then I left went to England, I stayed in London, I saw everything there.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing from furniture to illumination as well.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: We we did some fashion stuff, and but we always had uh trouble with the astroverse that it was difficult to start as a freelancer design.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it is still difficult, I think, to do that.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And in this one moment, we had the opportunity to start collaborating with a beauty brand, with a fragrance brand.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we we went involved with them and and I found that the world of beauty is uh such a big world, and we understand that it's very related to the identity of the users, identity of the consumers.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that was something that when I started as a product designer was intriguing me a lot because I always wanted to know why people buy one thing or why it don't buy this one, or but and in many categories it's difficult to work heavily on that area of that kind of nearly psychological area, but in the beauty, it's a very intensive area of tour.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So because we we build identities and we build brands that represent people.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So then I I went amazing on that, and then yeah, the one thing took the next one, and and at the end I end up being only working on that full time with my team as well, all day on that, and working for I brands.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about uh it was a mysterious way, I will say.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think you know, it shows though, you have so much experience, and I and I can see it, you know, every time I read about your read your posts, I like I said, you know, and it's very interesting this world of packaging for me because I think you know, you mentioned the beauty industry, right?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with the beauty industry, I I'm very curious about your opinion here because as you know, there's a lot of brands, you know, especially in the last, I think, maybe five, ten years, I've noticed more, you know, so many brands.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Almost every day there's a new brand popping up, you know, and most of the time the differenti the differentiating factor for them for me as a consumer is their packaging.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like how they're presenting themselves.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for you to like speak on this.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, what is the process of you know, when you're working with a brand, what is the process that goes on with like trying to figure out what would be the good fit for them or like how to decide on their packaging?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's a big question, but it's it's related to the what we were speaking in the first one.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um beauty is something that we use for ourselves, all the beauty products like fragrances.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them they are not uh it's not like a car that you wear or a like fashion that you you show it.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Many times the beauty like skincare, many cosmetics and fragrances are not be visible to like the general the people outside.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's for you.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: You are buying it for you, you are using it, and and you're getting whatever that the brands give you, and also the chemical properties and the benefits or whatever, but it's something that fills our identity, basically.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we select one brand to the other because what their storytelling matches to our storytelling, let's say, oh, our identity.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's why they appear many brands.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And as new generations goes in society as engines of the consume, like let's say Dillennials, Gent Sen, or wherever comes, they will ask for a new set of brands.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: They will ask for something that represents them, something that fits in the way that they understand life.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a continually um fight on brands that they go on, trying to catch the new customer, the new niche in the market, the new area, because the users ask for that.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Also, there are the like the established brands that well established, that they what they do is they renew the bar continually the brand continuously to try to move forward, and then they use the heritage as a lever, and they also maintain as a fashion brand, or maybe something that they maintain the status, but they they have to do a lot of work to keep on with the young stars and so but but brands for new targets and younger targets are appearing, as you said, almost every day.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And also because it's been uh an expansion of the beauty section.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: When I started, uh I remembered like skincare, it was defined for a very precise target, was not for young people.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Skincare.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but not target, it not even for men.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Skincare was for women between this age and this other age, blah blah blah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Nowadays, skincare or methics are men and women, and also they go from 16 or 14 years to 19.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the target has completely blown.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Open it a lot.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: That means a lot of opportunities, a lot of niche, a lot of segmentation can be done.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a total sense of having an auto-crane.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, I love that you you mentioned that.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And something I want to ask you is like, what are some trends or some repeating things you've seen in this industry, you know, from the packaging side?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know like for me, I I noticed like the big stuff, you know.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I see like, for example, Gen Z loves like really bright colors, and I keep seeing that everywhere in the brand, like the packaging side, like bright colors, you know, like pink or yellow or whatever.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: But what are you noticing is a big trend for Gen Z when it comes to packaging and how it's being perceived by them, you know?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, the Vijay's target are asking for Bibbit, yeah, basically contrast, Bibbit colors, shiny products.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: They are moving away about uh they're moving away from their pastel and more relaxed or minimal stuff.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: They they've been grown in a society with many issues.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: We had pandemics, we are having uh economical issues, uh we are having uh social issues, we are having it's not a world very well liked, very stable as it is.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So they perceive it in where they were kids, and now they want to break with all this, so they want something fun, they want something that represents themselves, they are very open-minded.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is the first generation that they they are finding like the gender neutrality, they are finding they are eco-sustainable as a first one as default.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, as you said, it's vivid colors, it's contrast, it's about shiny stuff.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's about also typographies that maybe are funky or psychedelic and uh all this kind of stuff they love.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And also, they're gonna ask for sustainable packaging, which is a kind of a mainstream trend that it's it's impacting in all the areas, basically, because also we are we all are seeing these issues about climate change.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's something that is gonna have to move in all the areas, and also it's been very heavily pushed and by the industry.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: They all are trying to innovate, they all are trying to find alternatives.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's something that it's gonna be even a a must, I would say.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, I agree because sustainability is like at the forefront on everybody talking about it too.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, on TikTok, even like you know, Gen Z, I think is just more aware, like you said, you know, they're they grew up in a different time, you know.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: They I'm a millennial, so for me, we grew up, you know, in the 90s and the early 2000s.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: And for us, we didn't have any of this stuff, you know, like that they've dealt with.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've noticed that they're really gravitating towards like, you know, sustainability as well.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of my biggest questions then is really when you're looking at sustainable packaging, right?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's really a gray area for me, you know, sitting in the US and I know like US beauty products and stuff, they're not regulated like they are in the EU.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so like there's a lot of like question marks, right?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: As a consumer.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the big question marks is like when you look at sustainability, what are the big hurdles, you know, with packaging design when it comes to sustainability?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what are some things that maybe you've seen that might I mean, has it ever limited design, you know, from the design end?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, as designers, it's easy to design something and say it's sustainable.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: So for us, it's not the problem, in fact, because for us it is very default by team, they all want to think in something sustainable.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: The trouble comes in production and also the call, the problem comes for the companies, which also they're gonna have to adjust, maybe prices or disponibility or whatever.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: But the good the good thing is that the market is pushing very hard, like consumers are pushing very hard on sustainability because they feel it as a must, as we said.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Then because maybe 20 years ago, 10 years ago, it was not possible, but now this pressure of the market is making the brands well take care of that, it's making the brands to be very cautious about that, and the brands are giving the uh about are are letting the supplier chain to do the solution.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go any trades fair about packaging, about everything, all the what they are presenting, all the supply chain is innovations about sustainability.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So big industries manufacturing, cardboard, plastics, uh any kind of any kind of material they are offering but lots of innovations.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So industry to it's very aware of what market is demanding, maybe through the brands.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you are having a huge effort on reducing carbon footprint or reducing whatever, on using recyclable materials, or doing something that could be easily disassembled or whatever.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: But they are the industry is working very hard on that.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, from one day to nearly another day, they are all changing packagings and repacking all the products, what they were instead of what they were doing like let's say five years ago, all the coffrets, all the nests, typical nests in the coffret of some cosmetics or whatever, was on plastic, now are all carbon.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And well, and they did a very fast change on that, because they have to face that.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And in five years in Europe, or nearly five years, they're gonna be heavy regulations of on packaging.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if they want to continually producing products and selling products, they're gonna be they're gonna have to pass through their regulations.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So industry is moving very fast on that because the trouble is quite serious.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: The brands are accepting it, and accepting it, and uh they are investing, are they doing what is needed to go?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm very sure there's gonna be uh from now they are already seeing this change on many products.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: But in very little years, we're gonna find that old plastics are like biodegradable, or they can be fully recycled, or they just uh come from a recycled source.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So the market pressure is working because maybe social networks because all the cross-communication we have nowadays, the market pressure is leading this and it it's it it's moving the industry by the by itself.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I I agree, and it's interesting what you said in five years and there will be because I I think you know, even in the US, because EU, like I said, it's very strict compared to the US regulatory, you know, things that are in place right now.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: So especially with packaging, I mean we always follow what the EU does, you know, here in the US.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like the EU does it and then we're like five years behind, you know, like okay, now we have to do it too.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very curious because here a big conversation that's come up, and recently I I was talking to somebody about this, was that people will say that, you know, my packaging is completely, you know, sustainable, right?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: They'll say fully sustainable, but then they'll have something like a black, like completely opaque glass bottle, you know, which can't be recycled.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not, you know, it's not able to be recycled.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: So those kind of like little loopholes exist in this industry that I'm noticing that, you know, somebody can say that you went to a manufacturer.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if this is something you've come across on, but like, you know, you can go to a manufacturer here from what I'm seeing and get your stuff done and then still claim that you have sustainable packaging, but when you go to recycle it, you know, it's not gonna actually get recycled, you know.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a big question I have is that what where does this come in, you know, into the conversation?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is it like at the design like point or is it like way down the road when they're actually manufacturing the actual concept?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well all the policies of uh recycling in in each country are very different.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that uh, for example, like here in Barcelona, there are like all the typical containers to do your rubbish so and then all the plastic, the cardboard, a glass.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I know the fact that people it's nearly uh all the citizens are recycling mostly and they are throwing everything more or less where they where they should be.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: But then no government can manage that.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, so even if industries are the effort, then we have to move to other level of countries and the regions, and so because many times they can't even organize this recycling and this dividing of materials.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we it's a quite important uh question.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what many well, some a big trend that this trend is appearing, which is the refillable, which is stuff that is like dissolvable packaging, and so we don't need to rely that our glass or our whatever you use it, it's gonna be recycled properly by the government.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, refillables is a great option in theory, but it's having a difficult go-to-market.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not everyone is wrong.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's a beautiful option.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: There are many startups with this, and there are many companies going this way.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I know from talks and that that it's not so easy to grow, and it's not so easy to penetrate deeper the markets with this kind of solution because the average user is not a kind of it's not by by now, it's not a massive you know, it's not something that everyone will will adapt at home.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: But that should be a solution or could be a solution, yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: But but it's not working at the as it looks nowadays.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's in the early adopters zone by now.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I know.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've noticed actually, I interviewed a few brands.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's a brand, I don't know if you're familiar with them, Bonju is the is the brand, and she has this beautiful, like her product, she only has one product, but the refillable, it's refillable, but you can't tell when you look at the packaging, you can't tell that it's a refillable package because it looks as if it's just one container and you don't even know where the refillable thing is, you know.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very interesting the kind of you know technology that's being used to create this refillable packaging.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm already seeing it evolve, you know, from like maybe five years ago where it was very bulky and it was very easy to tell that, you know, if you're trying to make sustainable packaging, it looked like you were trying to make sustainable packaging, you know.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we've definitely we're already getting into that kind of era of we're gonna see a lot more things come up, and I'm excited to see that because I think refillables are honestly I it's the best option given what you explained, you know.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a great option, yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: You you're right, but uh it's gonna need regulation, I think, because not uh regulation or education, at least because at the end, not everyone is in the mood of people prefer to have the product, full product many times.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do people tend or they are uh mind show that they tend to be more lazy or whatever.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: But uh it's gonna need uh help from regulation or a lot of education to to move forward in the way of referrables.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's being uh it's growing, but it's being uh difficult for the brands in what they can this way.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right, no, absolutely.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, one of the things I want to actually ask you because I see this a lot and I gravitate towards these kind of products as well, or like luxury products, right?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so lux for me, luxury is a completely different category.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like with a lot of consumers, we throw all these things kind of out the window when we're buying luxury products.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're more concerned about, you know, the look and the and look how it looks on my table or my vanity and these things.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for your opinion around you know, packaging with luxury products.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what are some things that you could share with us, like in terms of like the experiences you've had with brands and guiding them to you know the best options?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: We we do a lot of fashion and luxury products, mainly in the France side area, basically.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And packaging is very intensive on these categories, on these areas of the market, because at the end we we build through the packaging a lot of value of the product.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I made very well-known brands, the product itself, maybe it's under$10 the cost the product, but when you find that the shop it's over$100.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So and all this, all these, yeah, all this multiple difference in value, it's built about image, it's built about packaging, it's built with marketing, and it's a heavy industry, and uh creates a lot of the packaging in this area.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, as you said, it many times uh we buy these beautiful fragrance that we love to have in our bathroom.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, and it has a lot of uh materials, many of them cannot be separated, and and but it's something that it matches a lot with our identity because we want to feel like this brand.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: In the in the beauty categories, luxury brands are easy, they easy to penetrate because they go with entry-level prices, so you don't have to buy like a full suite or a full jacket from a fashion brand which is very expensive.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can go with a skincare thing or with a cosmetic or with uh fragrance, which is nearly it's an average price, or a bit higher than standard, but so it's an open door to the luxury world with this it's an easy access to the luxury world.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we go for it, and society loves them, and then we don't think about sustainability as something.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, because we want to be part of this dream and we want to be part of this high India.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Luxury brands tend to have a good uh developed product.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if it's glass, okay, the glass is gonna be easily recycled.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So so it's easier for an expensive product to be manufactured in a proper way with proper materials and that will be recycled, blah, blah, blah, than for a very low-cost brand that sometimes has to go to maybe other solutions.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: So in one hand, luxury is creating a problem, but in the in the other hand, they are using the best technologies to be as sustainable as possible.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you know what comes to mind is like, for example, Chanel.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like what you I loved what you said because I think people love these really high end luxury brands, but you might not be able to, you know, buy that new Chanel handbag, but you can buy the cool bronzer.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: or or the blush or some cosmetic product and they still have the beautiful logo and the packaging and it's very aesthetically pleasing.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's definitely a very interesting field, I think, from a psychology standpoint, right?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Of consumers, because you you still feel like you're part of, you know, like you have something by Chanel, you know, or Valentino or whatever it is for you.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you still feel like you're part of that experience, but you haven't purchased the really expensive, you know, clothing or whatever.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very interesting that you brought that up.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: I see it a lot with, for example, social media, like, you know, influencers, they make posts and stuff.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And most of the time they'll have like a little cosmetic product, you know, and it kind of elevates their post.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting how we're using that because you know packaging isn't just one conversation.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just about, you know, we talked a lot about sustainability, but it's not just about that.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: For us, I think, you know, as consumers, it's like we want the experience in many ways.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like packaging brings a lot to you.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why it's so interesting because sometimes when it comes to big luxury stuff, you don't even care what's inside.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: You just love the way the packaging looks.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no shame in that, you know, sometimes that's how people feel and that you know this is just a beautiful product or it's very high end.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so one question I have is you know when you're making like if a luxury brand is making like custom components of their packaging, what is that process like?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like do they go through like a really long is it like a really long process to make custom components for packaging?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like how does that work?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah let's say a fragrance for a leading company we can stay one year or one year and a half or or more doing a development of it and it's iterations many times it's not like kind of a full designs every day or anything like that, but it's a continual work for a team and and it takes a we we start when when let's say we want to yeah they want to go with a new bottle for next year in 2024.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: This 24 bottle that we appear maybe in the second semester is being designed 2022 2000 yeah and finish it on 23.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's two years earlier than we start and typical Aberrage from concept development to the technique also so that to the moment that you send all the files to the producer or whatever it takes nearly a year on developing an acoustic bottle.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: That for big companies because they care a lot of what they do and they don't go they don't go with something that they don't believe on.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: So they can do thousands of tests and if it fails they stop the project and then they go for a new one.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: It for the large companies the business for them it's about a million million auto so they prefer to do as many tests as possible and they go for with a winner always no then they never fail big let's say medium companies family companies small companies for them it's harder and they go faster because they don't have the financial they can't invest such a big time and effort on doing that.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Many times they go with standards or modified standards and the investment is also yeah more more more human yeah I mean I can I I can definitely see that and I think you know for me it's interesting from the small brand side because there are some small brands I've seen that are just very very forward thinking with their packaging design and I always wonder like how much does that cost you because you're a small brand you know so you know you you always want to assume that it's very very expensive to get custom design and then packaging and that makes sense what you said.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of the government how the government's always working on something n years before we see it.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you know it's like yeah I can see why it takes two years for it to actually show you know because it takes so much time.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious though like what are some trends you've seen you know with the design and the things that have come across your table with smaller brands you know that they're not just sustainability but in terms of just the beauty of the design maybe if you can share some coloring options or something that they're opting for.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Brands that they are new to the market so they are not very well known and they need to do this they need to do this go to market they need to do this recognition well they need to find the the even the audience and some some keys will be that they need to be they need to have something iconic.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter the design is something subjective you know so it may be beautiful for someone and not for other one but what they need all this kind of brand they need something that which is iconic.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: They cannot be as the brand next uh to them in the in the shelf so they need to be maybe a funky color or maybe a funky tipo or maybe a very big tipo so well that's another thing they need to be easily uh visible so iconic but also I will say put your logo big your brand let your brand be visible don't be very minimalistic because in if no one knows you no one's gonna see you well you need to help on visibility so if you take a look on new launches you will see all those new goals that may come from entrepreneurs or startups or whatever then many of them they have a big a big visibility on their brand so you easily gonna recognize it once you know once you know it because you may see it on social networks or whatever you will catch some detail and that detail will remain on you and then you may be able to find it elsewhere you know but my biggest uh advice would be that do something which has some like comic stuff or some big people where the branding is clearly visible because you're gonna have to fight on that channel doesn't need to do that all the large heritage fashion brands doesn't they that they don't need it because they already are know it by many many many things so but new ghosts are are they then that's they need to showcase what they are.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense no that makes sense because yeah if you're if you don't stand out you know it's gonna be very hard to find you not only in retail but even like I mean from a I think from a social media perspective too like you know it's not gonna be as eye catching if you're just minimalistic.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now one thing I want to ask guys I want your opinion on this because I've I've been really curious what your opinion about this packaging is you know you know as you know Beyoncé came out with her new hair care line I love the packaging I think it's the most beautiful packaging and I'm curious what are your opinions on sacred packaging?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: As I said this is something very subjective and many approaches can be done and all of them maybe successful or not.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I I never try to do statements about which is good or which is bad because it's very subjective but it it really feels and and it really does the job so it's a it's a great book.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: But not only be you say all the celebrities now now now all celebrities and influencers are having their own makeup brand you know but all of them are doing great exercises.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them they position in one way or other way but we are in we are in a moment that because they have distraction with the the audience in in social networks they are being well they are doing great products and very successful also in this category which is the mastiche which is like kind of the prestige for the masters or something like that let's say it and BOC it's just in the same way so for me excellent exercises.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah no I think it's a very it's interesting to me to see this minimalistic luxury you know come out in packaging because like I feel like that's happened in like in in the last few years for me I've started to notice this whole like you know the very muted colors but very architectural kind of design you know to the actual components themselves and it looks very minimalistic but you can tell that there has been so much that's gone behind that packaging.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's something for me as a consumer it's very intriguing how some brands can do that where it's like you don't have to have maybe like what we were talking about where it's like radiant colors and you know whatever it might be very minimalistic you know beige or or white or whatever color but the design like the actual like the structures of the bottle or the cap or whatever that's what intrigues me you know is like how do you create this real fascinating look without having to go above and beyond you know with like coloring and and whatever.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I I just find that so interesting.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: It is much more difficult to do a minimalist design than a crowded full of fancy things always it's quite a difficult exercise to do something minimalist.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the minimalist look which all the nude and this architecture as you said if you if you see it if you look closely at what's in the market it's being used by all the celebrities basically very good action and very good level to manage the audience.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: So they can state for this kind of designs and in these minimalistic uh areas they can be open to a very wide audience so as a strategy for them it fits very well.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe for a new goal with no one behind in that has to fight on the shell it's a very difficult approach.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's good for BLC or it's good for Rihanna or whatever but not maybe the best uh for all the entrepreneurs okay yeah when you are because they they're gonna come out on TikTok showing them and they're gonna have 1000 sales at them at that second you know so for the other kind of uh launches yeah each brand has to find a way to connect with the audience so celebrities are doing are doing it in that way and fashion brands are doing more in kind of fancy and very trendy full of compliment charms or maybe bling being fixed and uh entrepreneurs with startups for job they're going with the like vibrant colors and huge typographies and so so because there are ways that they find out their their way to market at the end and then they they reach sales which is at the end objective of all the business.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's looking that's a great point and I think you're absolutely right every time I've seen these like very elaborate you know designs has always been celebrity brands.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's very rare to see like individual brands indebrands come out with this stuff.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so it it's expensive one but also you know like you said you have to find your audience first what they want.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And they have to use the opportunities they have so a celebrity needs to play big that's it.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that 100% no I agree and I and you know it's interesting because I'm curious how this will affect the like the future because now we're seeing like you know for example we had we talked a lot about Gen Z.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: We noticed that you know there is a trend in packaging they are gravitating towards brighter colors and stuff but I'm curious just from your opinion of what you know what you've seen in in your career how do you think this is gonna like the next five years in packaging what do you think the emphasis is going to be on if you were to kind of predict a little bit on what trends might be coming up you know in this area?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well that's a difficult question.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: The wool is getting polarized so that's uh something that we can one can feel already so we're gonna go for more exclusive brands even more expensive and even more uh with the personalized and more details and more with experiences more complex experience so my high-end brands for one side they're gonna grow also mastige so prestige for mass is also gonna grow because it is polarization so in the in-between maybe it will get not such in not but we will get less interest so we'll go prestige and these fancy brands with colorful stuff that they also gonna grow out.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that new gener next generation which is alpha is gonna be the same as Gen set even more kind of revels or more kind of punk or more more yeah with this kind of feeling of needing to have something different of what it's already there.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the trend of the Brybrand the trend of pop uh pop culture or groovy or psychedelia will be will be more mainstream but the luxury will also be out so these two will manage most of the most of the market and all the news and all the relaxed and all the more kind of wellness may get in this area of the wellness side but not in the drinks of fashion.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense and that's interesting that you you mentioned that because yeah I I feel like with with these trends like things just for me they just pop up and I all of a sudden I see them ever I see everything everywhere and I wonder I'm like when did this happen?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know when did we shift and go into this direction but I'm very curious as well to see you know what pops up especially with Generation Alpha.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're very different I think in some ways though you know than Gen Z.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're similar but they're they're a little different with what they like and I know I've seen a lot of teenage brands come to market lately that are focusing on that you know that category of of people and they're kind of different than the typical Gen Z brand.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I was curious.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Totally totally yeah but it was wonderful chatting with you on thank you so much and and I really appreciate your insights into packaging.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said I I don't know anything about that world you know and it's really cool to see you know an expert like you and and what you you're noticing day today.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for coming out to the show.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's been an honor hosting you and for everyone listening out there if you have any questions about packaging or any thoughts or whatever you might want to share please chime in let us know.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: We love hearing from you and I'll be back next time.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks to you it's a pleasure I'm also continually learning I'm learning this this uh professional and this this world and and beauty and so it's such an evolving world that it's a continuous learning so for me it's a pleasure thank you hey guys so I hope you love that episode please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform we are available on so many different platforms so wherever it is that you're tuning in just go hit subscribe you will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes this way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts brand founders industry leaders authors all the wonderful people that we host and that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 37:04
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• 37:34
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• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.