Latest / Before You Speak / summary Before You Speak | Episode 24 | Manosphere
Transcript
- Derek Peterson: What's up y'all? Welcome back to the Before You Speak podcast. I am your host, Derek Peterson, just processing the fire hose of my newsfeed with this guy over here. Elwyn: What's up everybody? I am Alwin and coming to you this week from Fayetteville, Arkansas. So this week my fire hose is filled with news and woo pig suey! Derek Peterson: No, I can't get behind anything Arkansas. Sorry. My neighbor is a Razorbacks fan. I still don't understand it, but you know, I guess our... I mean it seems fitting. I mean the color scheme everything. It just seems like it works, but just not something I'm interested in. Elwyn: You know, it's cool there, Mascot's a hog. So I got a buddy who went to Arkansas and I have to ask him this because on the drive here and then today there's like a wildflower, Texas has the blue bonnets, right? So there's a wildflower that I saw that was exactly the Arkansas color and then a tree, you know, it's April with leaves that were also exactly the Arkansas color. And I was like, I wonder if that's where they got that maroon. And if so, I respect that because it was cool to see. Derek Peterson: Alright, I like them a little bit more now. In all fairness to Arkansas, I've never been there. I just don't have no plans to go there. If I don't have to ever go back to Iowa again, I will not go there either. Elwyn: Here, I'll throw the flip side at you though. In the pool where the dive meet is, they have banners for the swim dive teams placing at the NCAA championships going back like 30 years. It's never higher than like 24th and there's a whole bunch of like 38th, 40th, 40th, 37th and it's like, do we need to a banner for 40th? I feel like no. They're like maybe top 10 you got a banner. 28th, they're like not great. Derek Peterson: You It's the same It's the same as like all kids sports now as you get a medal no matter what like you you played. Yeah. Yeah That's that's something to be very proud of all right Elwyn: I also think that there's a tie for 40th because it's like four points and there's 12 schools that get 40th. So it's not even 40th. It's like maybe 52nd. You know, we don't know. Derek Peterson: Yeah and then they continue number by number right? So if there was like a tie at 30th with like three teams it's still the next place is 31 right? They just have a team. Okay so then okay so I'm wrong so 40th still it has to be all the ties for just 40. Got it not all the ties previously. Okay fair enough. Elwyn: No, the next place is 34th. Derek Peterson: Well, let's jump into the news today. I wanted to start off with this ⁓ website that ⁓ the, what we're gonna call the Grape Academy that CNN reported on that had, and I wanna make sure I'm clear on this. It had 62 million visits over the course of February and I believe over 80 million in March. And these aren't unique visitors. So, you know, it could be. Elwyn: ⁓ yeah, fuck. Derek Peterson: million different men 62 different times it could be you know half that at double the amount whatever the situation is but it's a lot of traffic and it's a bunch of men that are teaching each other how to drug their wives and you know sexually assault them while they're passed out doing things like eye checks and different things and you know it's crazy to me because yeah I I never even thought of this as a world until that story came out a few years ago about the French woman that had found out. Yeah and you know the the horrendous nature of that it was mind-boggling but now to see that there's like a community of people doing it and this is one of the scariest things just about our world in general right now is that you know like when behavior like this is abhorrent and when it's Elwyn: Yeah, Giselle Pelico. Derek Peterson: cast amongst the general public, it's viewed that way. And what the internet has allowed people to do is it's allowed them to find community around some of this abhorrent shit and connect with each other on it. And when they do that, really just, it lays the groundwork for acceptance around a bunch of things that should never be accepted socially. And this shit is scary. And the fact that it's The fact that it's just now making the news with that kind of traffic is insane to me. How was this never reported before and how did somebody not leak this or find it and tell the world about it? Because this is insane to me. Elwyn: Yeah, I I'm guessing that the people who are visiting that website are not ones that are likely to report it. ⁓ It's completely insane, right? And I didn't see the report. just saw on my social media feed a couple of people, like, 62 million. ⁓ my God. was like, what is this? And I looked into it and it's like, what's the number where we become numb to this? Like, would we be more... Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: outraged if it were 50, then we seem to be at 62 million. Because to me, like, there's this report, and if very specific, you know, influencers are talking about it, but it's not, I haven't really seen it in the news beyond the initial report, it's not blowing my shit up at all. ⁓ You know, so like, right, exactly. So what's the number? Is the number... Derek Peterson: Yeah, which is also terrifying. Elwyn: 110, if we were at 110, could we be like, oh my God, these guys are incredibly terrible people and we need to hunt them down and arrest them? And 62 million, we're just numb to it. well, that almost that can't be real, right? Like, cause like unique visitors, if you know, a million people aren't going there 62 times in the month of February, there's only 28 days. That's two and a half times a day to go see that site for a million people, right? So the number, the unique visitors has to be eight figures. Derek Peterson: Yeah. Yeah. Elwyn: 20 million, you know, 10, 20 million. And yeah, I don't know what to make of it because I told Lisa about it last night and she was like, what the fuck are you even talking about? Like, this is a thing, this thing exists? I was like, yeah, yeah, it does. And it's like... Derek Peterson: Do know what's even scarier about this? So one of my best friends here in Austin, this is crazy because this actually happened a few weeks ago. She called me because she experienced something like this in her first marriage and she called him out on it. She didn't know what was happening, but there was a night that she woke up in the middle of the night and he was on top of her and it was the first time she'd ever remembered it happening. the next morning she was like, I know what you did and his defensive nature after all of that was just, she said it changed everything and ultimately led to them splitting, but still she had no like, she had figured that that the time that she had woke up in the middle of it was the only time it ever happened. And then when that story came out about the French woman, there was a lot of things that were similar. she had some, her hair had started to fall out at certain points and she had never had that happen prior to. And then there was a number of different symptoms that she was experienced during that season of life that she never connected the dots to. But after reading that story was like, ⁓ my God, like was he doing this often? Was I getting drugged regularly? Because now I'm starting to recognize the signs of it. And dude, it's insane to think that like, this is a real thing and could be happening more than we actually like even realized that. This is something men are openly engaging in and also cheering each other on for. what in God's like, God, the worst part is that this is not blowing up everybody and that the names of these people aren't being dragged out and that there isn't a full scale investigation, that we're not getting reports from the FBI on it, like all of that. That's the more befuddling part about all of this. Elwyn: There was more outrage ⁓ with the Ashley Madison data leak like 15 years ago, 10 years ago. There was more outrage about people who were conventionally cheating on their wives rather than basically raping their wives. We're so far gone. This is why I vote for women. Because I feel like at this point, like, hey, guys, not every guy's a piece of shit, but like... Derek Peterson: Yes. Elwyn: We have a long track record of being shitty people. You know, it's funny, I said I'm in University of Arkansas, right? I'm in Fayetteville right now. And right across from the pool is the SIGAP house, fraternity house. And they have really nice fraternity houses here, like the fraternity, sorority row, fraternity row, like one of the better ones that I've seen. ⁓ SIGAP has like corrugated steel up around their front lawn. So to walk through, Derek Peterson: Then. Elwyn: up to the stairs, you gotta walk through like a corrugated steel gate that's all full of graffiti and spray paint. And one of the things that's spray painted on it in giant letters, I'm talking like 40 feet across, six feet high, ⁓ is catfish row. And I'm looking at this and I'm just going, you know, why do they think that's going to attract co-ed, know, college-aged women is my first thought. My second thought is, it probably somehow does. And my third thought, which was to Bianca, was like, if you ever walk into a place like that, you're making a really bad decision. Right? you're just, nobody ever deserves anything in that context, ever, period. Categorically, no. It's never the victim's fault, ever, ever, ever. But if that's what you're looking at and you choose to somehow disregard the giant ass warning sign that that fence is, you're really making, you need better friends or something. I don't know, because it's just a terrible decision, but this is acceptable. The university hasn't told them to take it down. I don't know if like legally can or not, but it all seems to me to be part and parcel of the same culture. This, you know, and we're going to talk a lot about it today. My news feed, my news thing is also fucking shitbag men doing shitbag thing to innocent women. you know, which is Swalwell and Gonzalez. Derek Peterson: Yeah, it's a- Yeah. And actually I wanted to jump into that because well, there's a, I wanted to talk about you briefly touch on what's happening with them, but also be, and I'm not sure if you wanted to include this. It's this situation is also messing up the governor's race in California quite a bit. ⁓ I mean, there's too many cooks in the kitchen, not enough democratic front runners and there's potential that Republicans could end up running against each other because of how California they don't do. Isolated primary is correct. They do. Elwyn: Right, they do a jungle primary and the top two candidates make it through. I kind of feel like this might actually help the mess on the Democrat side because Swalwell was a front runner. So if you take his votes out, know, probably most of them will go to one person. It'll just... Derek Peterson: Well, that was the issue is I was listening to the pod save America guys, America guys talk about this and they were saying that the breakdown, like the split of, of his votes, Swalwell's votes were the percentages were like really actually close. like, was like, you know, 60 or 70 % to one person, uh, you know, 40, 30 or 40 % to another, and then a few stragglers, but the result of that is that it's still actually pretty split on the democratic side because Elwyn: But they just need one to be in the top two. Derek Peterson: Yeah, but it looks like the other two guys from what I was reading about this was that actually the two Republicans by voter share would actually at the moment be the top two ⁓ because of how split the Democrats are. Elwyn: Yeah, I know I saw a poll like that before Swalwell dropped out and just to back up, So Swalwell, a week ago, reports started to come out of like 12 different reports. Maybe it was four. It was enough reports against him ⁓ that he had, you know, had illicit affairs, sexually abused some people, you know, multiple people. Exactly the kind of shit that Trump does that politicians do and have stopped resigning and that Tony Gonzalez, who's relevant here, had most certainly been credibly accused of and had not stepped down. Derek Peterson: Gonzalez was the one where is the lady lit herself on fire, right? God, that brutal. Elwyn: Hilled herself. Yeah. And he just, he ran in the primary. Like he was supposed to be in a runoff in May for, to retain his seat. Or it might've been gerrymandered to retain a seat. And to the Democrats' credit, I think they immediately were like, you gotta go. He lost 21 endorsements in a span of six hours. ⁓ Every one of them was a major endorsement. They they were on him right away. You got to go And he did the thing like nope. These are false claims. I'm not gonna drop out blah blah blah blah This is all bullshit and they didn't let up right and I think it was Pelosi probably gave him the call I saw before like a day before he dropped off you know, she had said something in the news like ⁓ He can fight these claims if he's truly innocent and wants to fight these claims He should absolutely fight these claims, but a governor's race and being a representative in Congress, you know, the campaign is not the place to fight them. And I get the feeling knowing that Pelosi's power in California, that she had given that message to him directly, because by Monday he had dropped, by Sunday he had dropped out of the governor's race. By Monday he had said he would resign from Congress and by Tuesday he had resigned from Congress. And so had Tony Gonzalez, right? So to... the credit of the people around them, at least finally, these guys are getting out of Congress, like at the bare minimum. Like, no, this isn't an innocent until proven guilty thing, okay? I'll diverge. There was a teacher in a school district near us who was recently, well, he's not a teacher in that school district anymore. And it turns out that over the course of an investigation, ⁓ Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: He found a couple dozen points where he was like brushing seventh graders hairs and giving seventh grade girls foot massages and shit like that. So they asked him to leave and I was talking to some people around there and like, well, he hasn't been found guilty. That's not the fucking standard. That's the standard to go to jail. The standard for Eric Swalwell to go to jail is he's found guilty. The standard for Tony Gonzalez to go to jail is he's found guilty. Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: The standard for them to represent people in Congress or run for governor is not guilt in a court of law. It's, are you a fucking scumbag who's assaulting women? Then you shouldn't be doing this. You should step down. And the calls to step down should come kind of just like they did in the Swalwell case. know, kudos to the Democrats for just being instantly like, nope, we see this. We see this as something you did that's shitty. We see this as something that has been going on on the other side that's been allowed to happen. We see this as something that we've argued against and we're not gonna fuck it up. and Swalwell's a very, very popular progressive. So there were progressive voices online who were like, no, no, no, he should fight it. He shouldn't go, he shouldn't go. Like, no, I don't give a shit what a good progressive he is. He's a shitty person. Derek Peterson: Yeah. Yeah. And at some point there, there has to be some, a sense of morality, at least with in, at least with one party, like there has to be, it's meaning it's not like fighting for justice, fighting like fire with fire is one thing, but like, yeah, like there has to be a set of standards to be like, man, we're not just going to allow shitty people that want to railroad their way there that are basically running for office to justify their own terrible behavior. ⁓ and lack of values, but yeah, it's interesting. I was reading about the, Swalwell thing and I, I read that it was actually pushed out by Democrats because they, ⁓ they knew that Republicans had more on this than they had expected. And what they were hoping was that he would win the primary. And then, ⁓ and then they were, the Republicans were planning to hold it until October to try to dump all this right before. So I think. What I read was just that, yeah, the Democrats decided to get out in front of this and push it now, knowing that this was going to surface at some point in the next six months anyway. Elwyn: I mean, it certainly takes some of the kudos away from them if that's the case because the bar to hold, I don't believe that I'm holding an elected representative to a very difficult standard if I say, hey, if you've been credibly accused of sexual assaulting multiple women, you shouldn't be holding public office. That's not a high bar and somehow it's become a high bar. No, they shouldn't have held it as soon as that shit comes out. It should be out. what... Even then, what are we doing? I mean, I'm glad they did it and I'm glad he gets out there for all the political reasons, but... You know, and fuck the Republicans, who clearly just don't give a shit, who are like, great, how can we most use this for political gain? Right? Like, come on. Derek Peterson: Yeah. Which is, and you know, like, ⁓ again, processing the, the, my newsfeed. So, I have no actual sources for that information and I'm slightly blurry on where, where I read it, but it was it. Yeah. It was in my newsfeed, which is, know, the majority of the people I follow are, ⁓ you know, people that are who I would like to believe are doing their research. Elwyn: It wouldn't surprise me though, like, seems like the kind of thing. Derek Peterson: ⁓ and actually posting content that is to some degree not just opinion. I do have a bunch of the opinion people, but I usually try not to spout off their information. It's the journalists that I lean into. ⁓ But all right, well, let's jump into today's topic, which is the Manosphere. Yes. ⁓ Elwyn: Bro, we are all over shitting on men today. Derek Peterson: ⁓ They need to be this is we're walking we're walking into a different era so but you know what like I I'm okay with it because if you can't if you are a if you if you are a shell of a human and have no values and have no courage to actually stand for something as a human being then yeah like Be angry and you know live a shitty life because there is I'm sick of men Elwyn: Yeah, that's right. Derek Peterson: They have a whole victim mentality behind the Manosphere is ugly as shit and we'll get into that. But let's, I think it's important that we start with, tell us what the Manosphere is, how you would define it and we can kind of go from there. Elwyn: Yeah, so there's no official definition of the Manosphere, which makes it important to set some parameters to this conversation when we're talking about the Manosphere. So, for example, I don't know whether to include Nick Fuentes in the Manosphere or not, and I'm deciding not to. So I consider the Manosphere, when I think about that, I'm thinking about guys like Andrew Tate, I'm thinking about young, obviously male... influencers, YouTube primarily, but also lot of Twitch and Rumble and things that I'm not familiar with, who's in the most positive light, in the most benign sense are talking, like yeah, we'll start with very benign, who are reaching out and trying to help young men find a direction, find a foundation, become more successful. I don't think that that actually exists, I think that that's too benign. I think it's really like, okay, here's how you can make yourself more attractive to women, here's how you can get laid more, here's how you can have a ball or social media presence, that's probably the most benign part of it. ⁓ Here's how you can make a lot of money, getting less benign in the grift. But it really, really quickly, and why I think we're talking about it, flows right into straight up misogyny. ⁓ a bunch of conspiracy-addled brains, when you get to conspiracy-addled brains, you also get straight into just rank anti-Semitism, which obviously we've talked about. But it's the misogyny. It's the... It's creating this victim mentality, like you just said, for young men and bathing them in it in such a way that they feel like nothing is their fault. Like, hey, they're... giving them guidance, like if you do these things, you'll be a quote-unquote high value man. ⁓ But in the same time, they also always, you have to be a high value man. You have to do all these things to become a high value man because in the view of Andrew Tate and these guys, ⁓ all a woman has to do to be a high value woman is be hot. That's it. There's no value beyond that, have to be a high value man. You have to do all these things to become a high value man because in the view of Tate and these guys, ⁓ all a woman has to do to be a high value woman is be hot. That's it. There's no value beyond that, So... ⁓ The hot women, all they have to do is have a vagina, which something Andrew Tate talks about all the time. But a hot man has to look good, has to go to the gym, has to work out, has to do their hair right, has to have the car, has to have the clothes. Right? And it's not their fault though. It's society's fault that has elevated hot women without hot women having done anything to earn it. Right? So at the same time that you have to do all this work to uplift yourself, you're also told that it's not your fault, it's everybody else's fault that you have to do that work at all. That the position that you're in at 19 to 23 years old, having trouble getting a job, you know, not getting laid the way you want to, ⁓ you know, is not your fault. It's the fault of society that elevates women above men, that ⁓ is controlled by the Jews, all this shit. So that's, I think, how I kind of consider the Manosphere. Derek Peterson: Yeah, it seems that the theme that it feels like that runs through the Manosphere is two things. ⁓ One, an underlying ⁓ hatred towards women and the view that women are the problems, ⁓ which two, ⁓ obviously, like you just said, lends itself to marginalizing minorities and other groups as well, because it's an easy target. I guess, like, so in a very honest, conversation I talked to some of my right wing friends about this topic every once in a while and actually one of the closest that I've been to thinking somebody was going to punch me was last year when this topic came up we were talking about women and only fans and you know my view of that is like yeah if you want to do it do it there's a lot of risk involved with it once you put yourself out there on an only fans like you're Elwyn: Out there running. Derek Peterson: you're at the behest of anybody who watches that and their judgment of you as a result. ⁓ That could potentially limit you with future jobs and everything else. like putting yourself out in the world in that way is very vulnerable. ⁓ like 90 plus percent of the accounts made end up failing really quick. So like there's only a handful of women that are actually making money. like my view is, do you... Do you feel like there is any fault of women for being provocative in this space and essentially providing the content for men that kind of drives this male view of women in general? Elwyn: Categorically no. To me that's the same as the, you know, like they have dress codes in middle schools and high schools and you know, the old saw, which is not that old, still cuts, is that, you know, the dress code for middle school girls is so that middle school boys won't be distracted, you know, by shoulders or belly buttons. It's like, no, how about you do your fucking work? Like... If a boy can wear a tank top a girl can wear a tank top, you know If a boy can be a porn star or have an onlyfans account so can a so can a woman like Absolutely not that is not an excuse to dehumanize and You know abuse People sex work is the oldest profession in the world. It's been going on forever ⁓ You can have whatever opinions you want about it Okay, but at the end of the day you know, Merica and freedom, right? I thought we all had freedom to do these things. So no, I don't think that there's any blame to be had, you know, towards women because men can't control their urges. Derek Peterson: Well, no. Correct. you know, like it's funny because I had a conversation similar to this with a buddy of mine a few weeks ago too. And this is always what they come back with on certain things when it feels like, you know, men are getting the short end of the stick. And look, I don't want to neglect the fact that there is an issue with young men, which I think we're going to talk about in a little bit because there is support needed for men. While at the same time, you can very easily dissect this and be like women being able to make a living doing only fans is not the problem because it truthfully if men just stop paying for the for the subscriptions there would be there would be no reason for an only fans like men men drive the market yeah the the demand is and not only that it's the biggest industry in the world as a result of it like there's demand the demand is likely never leaving so if you're mad at women Elwyn: That's right, there's demand. Derek Peterson: for flaunting their bodies, like the issue is that we've taught them that it works, that it will pay you for it. Elwyn: I also feel fairly certain that anybody that's really mad, the people who are really mad about that are ⁓ doing a podcast or doing a YouTube stream or a Twitch stream, really railing on it and then going and signing on to their OnlyFans or Pornhub account. Right? Derek Peterson: ⁓ a thousand percent. Like the most insecure people are the people that tend to, you know, like this is a tale as old as time, you know, like the ongoing joke that, you know, ⁓ every time there's like a Baptist convention somewhere, the grinder servers go down, you know, like, cause that's like, they're blowing up ⁓ homosexuality and then, you know, half of them are indulging in it, which is the, you know, Most people's biggest fear is that, you know, like, if the world's not gonna accept me for who I am, so I'm not going to accept myself or any others that are like me, you know? Elwyn: Yeah, the thing about this stuff is, you know, you have two daughters, I have two daughters, and one of them is going off to college. ⁓ Her number one risk factor is men. That's not her fault. That's not the fault of any woman. But that is being just the accelerant that's being poured on that by these people, by these Manosphere influencers. You know, where it's like, yeah, I'm getting her pepper spray. Right? Because I don't know who she's gonna pass walking around, who just finished listening to fucking Myron Gaines, you know, talking about how women are worthless pieces of shit and should worship at the altar of men and do whatever they want and decide that, you know, now's the time for them to act on that. It's a real problem that we don't... talk about enough how this stuff just lands on the young men. And I know that's why we're doing this podcast. like, there's, you know, I've been thinking about it this week in part because, you know, I did just order pepper spray and I'm like, yeah, this is, and I am seeing this frat house out there. And I'm just like, you know, we aren't paying enough attention to this as a society. You know, I said Nick Fuentes wasn't gonna, I don't call him part of the manosphere. But the night that Trump got elected in 2024, he was live streaming. I think at its highest point he had 500,000 people on it, but the following clip got viewed like 23 million times where he is just celebrating in Trump's victory. And he's just going, your body, your choice, fuck no, your body, my choice. And then there are t-shirts for that shit on Amazon. it's like, what? How are the grown-ups in the room not on this? How are we ignoring this and not, again, talking about it more? Because it's a generational problem at this point. Derek Peterson: Yeah. You're not wrong. And here's the other thing. And I did a little bit of looking into some of this stuff, ⁓ before, because it's, ⁓ I think it's important to note. So on average guys like Nick Fuentes get, they actually have a relatively small, ⁓ regular listener base. ⁓ I believe his numbers were like between seven and 10,000, weekly listeners. And if you actually go through a list of most of these podcasts, it's the same thing. There is, they're getting like weekly anywhere from like five to 15,000 viewers. Some may be 20, but then if you're at 20,000 viewers a week, you're in, you're sitting pretty good. The, what they do well is they go viral with clips. So there's two things that happen with this. Their clips end up getting hundreds of millions of views while their actual stream and messaging gets very little. there's a, not a dissection. Like there's a lot of people that are following clickbait and that clickbait is becoming their theology is what we're figuring out that there is not a lot of depth to the reasoning. So like if you're a bigot or anti-semite or racist whatever your poison the people that have like a deep-seated knowledge of why they're doing that it that's one thing right it's like they've they hate somebody or something and have a very clear reason why we're falling into this. acceptance of just, you know, some really terrible shit because people are watching 30 seconds clips and think they know more about ⁓ the reasons why or allowing it to really shape a worldview that is just disgusting. And this is something that needs to get taken care of. This is a lack of parenting. This is a lack of people. The Manosphere exists because insecure men are attaching themselves to fake secure men, which are, to be honest, Equally as insecure, they're just able to parade themselves as secure and the majority of the time they're profiting off it all. So the actual message isn't what matters. It's they're selling something and they figured out what's works and people are dumb enough and goalable enough to just buy in and move forward. And that's where we're missing. Like there needs to be more men educating young men. Elwyn: What? Yeah, I think I'm less in on the selling something in if we're talking about a product. You know, I don't know that I don't think that's how they make their money. Right. These are social media creatures. And I think that it's one of the reasons perhaps why people in our generation don't see this stuff is because it's not a podcast. Like we think like I I go to work. I've got a half an hour drive. I pop in a podcast. This is the first half hour. I come back. Maybe I really like it. I put it on when I'm going for a walk. I listen to 90 minutes to two hours of podcasts a day throughout the day. But what Nick Fuentes, what Andrew Tate, what's Myron Gaines? Fit and flexy? don't know, something fit and freaky? I don't know. What they're doing is not designed to be consumed like a podcast. They're going on for three or four hours and they're just going on. They're just rambling because they know that in that rambling for three or four hours, there's going to be 10 90-second clips that they can pull and that's what goes on social media. That's what goes viral. Nobody's listening because it's not designed to be listened to, right? It's just a new way of consuming content that, you know, for me, I don't consume content that way. Like I want a point. Give me an opening, a fucking middle and an end to the thing and let me get on my way. So they don't give a shit about 7,000 listeners. They know what they're doing. It's like the State of the Union this year was a clip show. Same thing with these guys and their podcasts. And what they're selling is the views. What they're selling is the advertising they get on their YouTube page from the views. So I think that's part of the issue is that it's just a new way to consume content. Derek Peterson: Yeah. Yeah, but and I think you're right, but I think they've tapped into something a little bit deeper is the critical aspect of developing a following like this is keeping them uneducated and and kind of like on guard all the time because like, for example, like you can somebody that's like new to Christianity, you can take one Bible verse and make this like a staple of your life, right? Like a Bible verse about, you know, ⁓ something that's deciphered as homosexuality is wrong, right? And you make this like a pillar of your life until you actually read and start to understand a lot of the language and why this was like taking into the whole context, why some of this stuff was being talked about at the time when these books were written, they were warning against, you know, men in power, taking advantage of young men and raping them. And so a lot of the homosexual content in the Bible was written around things like that. And this is what concerns me is, that when you just come out and make a statement that feels like something good, feels like something that like a value that you could stand on or something that you genuinely believe could be wrong, but you have no actual connection to the knowledge of how and why you got there. That value is so loosely held. that it can be manipulated for something really messed up and wrong very easily. ⁓ And I feel like that's just where we are. We're in a state where like there's a lot of information and people are dumber than ever because there is no actual connection to like rooting yourself in any kind of form of truth and value. It's just let's take what sounds good and is simple right now and move. And it's just they're they've tapped into the human nature of instant gratification and dopamine hits for young men that on things that just feel good because it's like, ⁓ you know, you can't, it's awkward to ask a girl out and it feels terrible getting rejected. like your hatred and your feeling around that we can tap into that really easy and turn you into a massage. This is all their fault, you know, like, and that's, that's a shitty place our world to be in. Elwyn: But I... All that is part of it, I think. But, you know, the demographic that we're talking... What's that? Yes. Okay, so we're done? We're good? Nah. Derek Peterson: It's all of it, Elwin. Are you disagreeing with me? I said it's all of it. Are you disagreeing with me? Derek, damn Derek, you just figured this out. You're right. No. No, it's Spencer. Elwyn: Everybody likes when we yell at each other, so you know. You're insane, man. ⁓ No, I think that, like... We live in the world now in terms of dopamine content where you get this 30 second hit and you get this emotional reaction to it. That's never existed before. And it's compounding a real problem. We talked last week about ⁓ young people and just the series of hits that they've had, right? From 2008 financial crisis to Iraq war to COVID, to a new war, just all these things getting in the way of the American dream and of opportunity. when you're like, that's real, right? So there's real economic frustration going on in the demographic that we're talking about. And that's coupled with, think, you know, not coupled because that implies too, but there's so much layered on top of that economic frustration. There's the I should be able to succeed. Why can't I succeed? I want to provide, right? I don't know if it's controversial to say that there is some sort of, ⁓ if it's not ⁓ a difference between men and women, there is certainly a societal expectation that men go out and get a job. And I don't know that that's bad, right? Like, look, I'm more of a stay at home father, so I don't think that's bad either. But this idea that like, yeah, go and get a job and provide for yourself if nothing else, right? Okay, great. Well, now they can't get a job. Now that's really hard. It's like, okay, and you know, hey, get married, you know, or if you're 22, you know, stole your wild oats, go get laid. Well, I can't do that either, right? Like, you know, what can I do? Well, I can go on my computer, you know, I can hide and become angry. I can game, right? So the outlets that that exist to relieve these frustrations are now, you know, the proverbial in your mother's basin on your computer. They're not going out and going to the gym or going out and meeting some people to play ball on the street corner or going out and just hustling for a job. Because there's another way to lose eight hours without even knowing that you've lost eight hours. And then you have this window, you have this eight hour window for people, for young men to become disaffected and angry where it's not your fault that you don't have a job, it's not your fault that you're sitting at home for eight hours, it's not your fault you didn't get laid last weekend, it's the women's fault. They took all the jobs, they don't want you because you don't have a job and they don't want you because they want the men who are rich and fit and you know society tells them that they can have that because all they need to do is be hot. ⁓ And you know, you're not hot, so you better work on that. And then it becomes, and why don't you have a job? Because of the fucking Jews. it's less even race baiting in that regard than it is misogyny and anti-Semitism. Because you have a lot of people who listen to Andrew Tate, a lot of young black men listen to Andrew Tate. ⁓ Myron Gaines is a young black man. ⁓ Derek Peterson: Yeah. Yeah. Elwyn: Candace Owens, who's obviously not in the manosphere, but she's preying on the same thing when it comes to the why can't you get a job. Nick Fuente's quite obvious about that. know, it's undeveloped frontal cortex. It's this very, very vulnerable time of life that coupled with the fact that a little bit out of sight, out of mind. ⁓ You know, if you're a parent, if you're a 55-year-old parent of a 19-year-old kid who's going to community college, Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: You know, you don't see them all day. You don't know what they're doing. And it's not your fault. It's not your fault as a parent then. I mean, like, yeah, I think there's probably extra work that needs to be done there. But at the same time, like, if your instinct is to be like, they're 19 years old and they got to study and they got to do work and hey, they probably want to get laid. So, you know, support that. ⁓ That's not your fault if that's your instinct as a parent. That's a normal instinct. Derek Peterson: Yeah. There's a number of things and I'm going to self project here a little bit because, ⁓ my experience and I recognize that this is my experience, but I still think it feels like it bleeds into the whole picture of things, right? Because we're dealing with this situation where what men need in general is real leadership. And the, the byproduct of that is, is that the were such creatures of path of least resistance, right? We will go down that path as quickly as we can. And what we're missing from our generations, and I don't know if this was the same for you, but the boredom and the quiet I felt growing up and the pressure to experience that is the thing that forced me to develop values. It forced me to develop the values that I have, meaning. There was no quick fix for me when I was a kid outside of TV, but even that got boring pretty quickly. I had no access to pornography. I barely had access to a television. I had access to being outside, playing sports, doing different things. And so the byproduct of that was that there was a lot of downtime and a lot of like thinking, like deep thinking, pondering about the world, pondering about like what's going on. You know, why do I feel this way about specific things? There was, there was very a lot of moments of quiet where my brain developed pathways that I think that were connecting me to bigger picture concepts constantly where I'm like, man, like this is the person that I want to be. This is how I actually do who I like. I was actually wrestling with these thoughts relatively often. And in my opinion, what we've stripped from our young men is that there's not. a lot of time and space and to be uncomfortable. You're not forced into that. And so the byproduct is you're just constantly filling your mind with something. And dude, if I can listen to a hundred podcasts about the same thing all the time, but if I'm never actually taking a minute to stop process, what I'm listening, thinking about practical application, it doesn't stick. It's just a mind numbing exercise, right? And there's podcasts I listened to for my numbing exercises. And there's others that I listened to to grow. And we are. I feel like young men have not, they're becoming dumber emotionally, like their EQ, emotional intelligence is going way, way down because there is never this, they're never in a position where they have to deal and wrestle with the quiet and figure out who they actually are. You can deflect that question for now, for a lot longer than you ever could before. Elwyn: So first, ⁓ you were never in your slamming the A-B button on one of those old remotes on like trying to unscramble, you know, Cinemax at night. Come on, man. You know what I'm talking about. Derek Peterson: Oh yeah, of course. I did a thousand, or like, know, rewinding and fast forwarding the same spot on like one of the movies that like accidentally showed like a nipple or something. know, like, pause. That's it, that's it. Don't come in here right now. And that, yes, that all happened. Elwyn: Yeah. Pause. Pause. Fuck. Pause. No, mom, everything's fine. Pause. Ha No, but you know, you know, it's I, you know, we grew up, we're roughly the same age, same generation, I think. You know, and I grew up in the woods. You know, there were like six houses within two miles of me. And I would come home from school and, know, G.I. Joe fucking afternoon cartoons only lasted for half an hour. And yeah, you have to you have to fill that times. OK, I got a. I got a dirt bike, I rode around on some trails near my house, I made up games to play outside, you know, like I remember playing a little fucking mock baseball game with a tennis ball and the soffit of our house, like weird shit, whatever, but you're forced to fill the time. Now that you're exactly right, the time is being filled for you. And we don't seem willing to talk about it. ⁓ You know, one of the things that I saw after Trump got elected again was this came up, right? And you listen to Scott Galloway, I listen to Scott Galloway, and he's really good on this, and he's done a lot of thinking about it, and some of what he says makes a ton of sense. But, you know, those on the progressive left, they don't want to hear this. They don't want to hear, you know, like, hey, there's a problem with young white men. you know, disaffected. I'm be like, fucking young white men feel disaffected? I'm a 23-year-old trans activist. Go fuck yourself, you feel disaffected. And it's not that they're wrong to feel that way, but they are wrong to ignore the problem, right? Like, this is happening to a historically advantaged group doesn't mean that something is, that there's nothing happening. It doesn't mean that we don't need some sort of policy to correct this or some sort of action to correct this. And I think a lot of it comes from the house and acknowledging it and sort of probably playing a little closer attention. Yeah, I'll digress for a little bit on that. But like my I have. Nephews, you know, and friends with with boys who are sort of 19, 20 years old. one of these friends, we were hanging out with them six, eight months ago and His son lives in a room above his garage. His son is 20 years old, works in an auto body shop, is really good with his hands, been working with cars all the time. But he's never had a girlfriend. His parents don't go into his room very often because he's 20 years old. He pays a nominal amount in rent. But it's also his space, right? It's personal space. And I don't know any of... my fears to be true or founded. But to me, I'm just like, man, that kid, he is in the crosshairs. And I'd be stunned if he wasn't in with some of this content. Just stunned. Because he's not going out. He's not meeting women. But he has a job, and he's good at what he does. But. I could see that it's like, yeah, I have a job. I'm good at what I do. Why am I not getting laid? Well, you're not getting laid because you're fucking in your garage attic apartment all the time, which I can only imagine stinks really badly. But it's a tough spot then for the parents, because the parents are good parents, but they're also very busy. ⁓ They have an incredible amount on their hands. And how much do they, how much, know, Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: Bandwidths do they have to go in and be like show me what you're watching on YouTube show me what you're watching on Twitch I need to see this stuff ⁓ Derek Peterson: Yeah. And I need, yeah, I need to understand it. But I mean, you tapped into something there that's that's that's, I think, pretty critical in all of this. And I keep going back to the fact that like a lot of what they say in the Manosphere actually is good things like they're like men taking ownership of your life, going out, making money, pursuing women, like being vulnerable and courageous like there's a lot of like the overall messaging on that front is actually not a bad thing the problem is is that Elwyn: Well, let's say could be not a bad thing. I don't think that's the messaging though. I think the messaging, that's the candy shell. Derek Peterson: Could be not a... Yes, well... Yeah, but because it taps into it taps into this desire that I think a lot of men want, right? So like what they're harping on is the fact that that and I think you probably feel this as well. There are things in life that I feel like I am designed to be and, ⁓ feel pressure on there to be a protector, to try to be a provider. And that doesn't necessarily look, I don't lump those in as it has to be the way society has deemed providing and protecting. But the feeling of men accomplishing those roles for themselves, like the thing that you see about the Manosphere and what it tells you just analytically, just looking at the data is that men are actually tapped into these desires. Like they, the problem is, that it takes actual calm and patience and understanding and dissecting the root of these, like to understand the real value, right? The real value of providing and linking that to a deeper source of like developing a work ethic and developing a work ethic because there is, you can take pride and joy and feeling good about accomplishing a goal and meeting a need and, ⁓ you know, and that contributes to society as a whole. So now not only do you feel good about yourself, but you're contributing to the world. You're putting things out the deeper value of a lot of this stuff is just not wrestled with. And so. It's easy to sell on the superficial side because there's this instinct in a lot of men to fulfill these roles. It's just that a lot of the people that are teaching it, there's no actual backdrop for how to like how to actually unpack a lot of this stuff in a positive way and, create a life that a value. Elwyn: I come at, to me that's like a little cart before the horse. Like to me that's backwards because we've left out of this entire conversation 51 % of the population, right? Young women have the same, ⁓ like what's different about the sort of societally assumed expectations of a young woman these days in 2026 versus a young man in 2026. I don't think that there's much difference at all. think young women are expected to, you there might be socioeconomic stuff that undermines this. So, okay. But by and large, I think young women are expected to graduate from high school. They're expected to go further their education in some way. They're expected to join the workforce. They are expected at some point to have a family. Now there's a whole bunch of things that happen right at that point that we're not going to get into. and societal expectations beyond that. But when we're talking about an 18 to 26 year old person, I don't think that the expectations are any different for men than for women. I think that what you're phrasing as the teachers, as the teaching of young men, that's where I differ. don't think that men have never been taught that. I don't think women have been taught that either. I think the opportunity has presented itself to women and they've taken it. And now that... That makes it more difficult. more players on the field for the jobs, for the university scholarships, for the spots, right? So yeah, does that mean that men don't have the free ride into university that they used to have? Of course. And does that mean that they need to elevate their game in a more competitive environment? Of course. But women have always had to have a more competitive game anyway. So know, for every 1 % that a man needs to elevate, a woman probably needs to elevate, 31%. So the issue is not that, the issue is that vacuum, right? What you're describing as like teaching doesn't exist for men. Young men have been, the expectations haven't changed at all for them, not a bit. It's just that there's more people that they have to compete with. And now the men that are not as attuned to that, that are not as... willing to compete that don't have that drive, maybe it's just that their frontal cortex and executive decision making develops a little later, right? That's part of it that's going on too. They're now behind and that's where these guys come in. That's where these guys come in. it's, they're not talking about, to me, I don't believe that they're talking, certainly not with any honesty about like, hey men, this is what you need to do to get ahead. Derek Peterson: Yeah. Elwyn: They're talking about why you're not ahead and that's a very different thing and I think that's that's the poison Derek Peterson: Yeah, that's all a fair point. And I don't want to take away from that because what women are doing is amazing. And I watch the difference just in my own household between my daughters and my step-sons and just the trajectory of their upbringing and how different it is. ⁓ I can't speak to being a woman, which is why I'm talking more particularly to being a man. Elwyn: I feel silly, we're two fucking middle-aged white guys talking about women. God damn it. Derek Peterson: Based off all the marriage therapy I've done over the years, the foundational thing I've taken away from that is that men and women very foundationally think differently. Meaning like women tend to have lot of windows open at the same time. Men are focused on one or two things at a time at best and everything else kind of falls apart. And that absolutely speaks to how I operate. And so I also look at what's happening with young men and see like, okay, like there's also this thing, where before when there's calm, patience and quiet and boredom, like, and you having to figure things out, you go out and learn things. Like I taught myself how to play drums. I taught myself how to play different sports. I used to read and write when I got bored. I learned how to draw because I taught myself because of all this stuff that just because there was nothing else to do. The problem is that this generation is there is always something that will take your attention and for men specifically, if you're only capable of focusing on one or two things, like if I had the access to pornography that you can have on a phone nowadays or access to social media or any of those things, my life might be very different. Like I might have never left the house and just done all the things that a lot of the kids are doing now. So I do think that it takes, there is a, I do think that there's a different set of circumstances that face this generation. And I'm not necessarily saying it's harder or less different. I'm saying it's we're trying to figure out how to manage this situation. This situation seems to be something that is messing with a lot of young men and we haven't figured out the actual solution yet. Elwyn: No, it- it- I agree. is, and young women face their own set of challenges in this. And growing up in 2026 for a young woman has its own set of challenges as does growing up as a young man. I do think, Scott Galloway, the thing that he says, which I think is spot on is, I do think that we would benefit greatly from national mandatory service. Whether it's in the armed forces or whether it's peace corps type stuff around the world. Derek Peterson: Agree. Elwyn: ⁓ You know, before Israel apparently went completely batshit crazy. Countries where there's mandatory uniformed service tend to be happier. They tend to be a little more welcoming of people with differences because they're forced to deal with them. They're forced to work with those people. Instead of growing up in a tiny town in Oklahoma, ⁓ you're forced to go meet someone. from Connecticut. You know, a dirty Yankee lib from Connecticut and a dirty Yankee lib from Connecticut is forced to meet a fucking redneck from Oklahoma. And all of a sudden, you you start to learn about that person and the stereotypes fall away. And the benefit of it also is you're doing something. You know, your day is planned for you. Derek Peterson: Yeah, dude, it's actually one of the, you know, Mormons as much as like, I disagree with the theology of the religion. think one of the things they do incredibly well is they push their young men to all go on a mission. So basically you're forced into a situation where you're spending two years with like basically no cell phone, a book and other, like a few other people that you can connect with. And then oftentimes you're forced to learn another language and experience a different part of the world. Like all of this stuff is like really beneficial for young men and it allows that like extra bit of time for them to like detach, grow and like start to put roots down into values. And if I'm being honest, the Manosphere exists and people are easily manipulated because they're not being rooted in any strong values early enough. And if you go for a long enough period of time, putting down roots and values gets increasingly harder and harder and the shallower and shallower you become as a person. think that there, takes going through some stuff in your teenage and twenties to, really set root down. If you want your life on a trajectory that really feels like it's satisfactory, but, that's just speaking from my experience. Elwyn: Well, also, you know, it's... I think that's right. The other part of that is it's time, right? It's occupying formative years for people. You know, we've said the idea that everybody should go to college is quickly turning sour because college is really, really expensive ⁓ and it's just not practical. So, you know, what happens then to somebody who doesn't go to a traditional four-year... college and you know, spends those formative years with too much time on their hands and all of sudden they wake up there 24. Now they're really fucked, right? Without the skills of a trip or without the benefit of that education and by trip I mean like, not quite missionary, but like Peace Corps, you know, two years out in the field doing stuff, working with people. You those are incredibly formative years, but they're also not years where full independence works for everybody, where everybody's capable. for that type of independence. that type of service, it helps that phrase you used is great, right? Grow roots to values. It helps grow roots to values during an especially formative time when idleness is really going to have a decades long impact on the rest of your life. Derek Peterson: Yeah, My buddy coined a lyric that I thought was great when we were in a rock band in the early 2000s and he said, ⁓ what do they say, youth is wasted on the young. So yeah, which I love that, thrown into a song lyric, which is great. but yeah, let's wrap it up there. And for today any any other final topic or thoughts on manuscript before we get into telling somebody to shut the fuck up? Elwyn: No, I think, ⁓ Derek Peterson: Yeah, other than, other than fuck Andrew Tate. ⁓ Elwyn: Yeah, and I'm glad I don't have voice. Derek Peterson: Yeah Dude if they follow any of that, I won't have boys. Yeah, like You're not welcome at home anymore Yes I will you can you can live somebody with somewhere else as soon as you're old enough Well, so who are we telling to shut the fuck up today? Elwyn: I'll have charges. Bro, MAGA Catholics have to shut the fuck up. Derek Peterson: Mm, this is a good one. Elwyn: into the bush like Homer Simpson and shut the fuck up, okay? Because you have a problem, MAGA Catholics. You have a problem because your pope doesn't like your god. Because your god appears to not be Jesus anymore. You your god appears to be Trump dressed as Jesus healing somebody in a picture and dressing himself up as the pope. You know, it's like... Derek Peterson: Hahaha. Elwyn: I was listening to, you we've talked about that podcast, The Necessary Conversation. So they went into that episode I listened to yesterday and you know, the MAGA mom just doesn't get it. She just, to listen to the thought, her describe, her processing that information, it was I saw the image, I didn't like it, so I started to do some research. And that's not research, that's I started to find someone to tell me. how to understand this in a way that doesn't crack my fucking world up. Because, you know, and her son was making the good point, it's like the Pope is God's voice on earth. The Pope's lane is everything. There is no lane for the Pope. Right? Should the Pope be meddling in elections? No, the Pope should not make an endorsement. I agree with that. Okay? But the Pope has every right to opine on war and on homelessness. and on being nice to immigrants. Jesus talked about all that shit as far as I can tell. And then, then, so you got this crazy thing which appropriately rubbed enough people the wrong way that Trump took the thing down with one of the greatest lies he's ever told. I thought it was a doctor. Come on. Also, that's what the internet is for. The memes on that were really good. The pit all wearing, everybody in the pit wearing the white robe and the red thing. ⁓ Derek Peterson: Mm-hmm. Yes. Elwyn: But then you have fucking JD Vance, this pimple, telling the Pope to stay in his own lane and that theology is not something that the Pope should get involved in. Sorry, what? What, like, just stop. Maga Christians, Maga Catholics, pick one, okay? Because I can't handle this, right? So you don't owe me anything, but do me a solid. and pick your Catholic or your MAGA. Okay, because right now the two are oil and water. And kudos to the Pope for this. I think the Chicago White Sox did a Pope hat giveaway, by the way, which is great. ⁓ Because if you can't sit there and just say, no, that was way out of bounds what Trump did, period. No explanation. He is way overstepping his bounds, and now I'm still supporting him. Derek Peterson: Nice. Elwyn: But at the very least, I'm concerned about what he believes his role in this world and my life to be. If you're Catholic and you can't see that post he made and JD Vance telling the Pope that theology is out of his lane, you gotta shut the fuck up about this stuff. You gotta shut the fuck up about all things Jesus and Catholicism. All of them. Because the number one thing about being Catholic is that the Pope is God's voice on earth. And if you're now listening to what the Pope says and being like, meh, not sure I agree. I think Trump might be right about this and not the Pope, and I kind of wish the Pope would stop talking about it because he disagrees with Trump. If you're listening to God's voice and your reaction is, ⁓ I kind of like Trump's, you're not, you have some self-reflection to do. And you need to shut the fuck up until you figure this one out. Because there's, you need teams of theocratic therapists to solve this for you. And I don't want to hear about it until you've spent like two years in Vienna with those teams. That's my shut the fuck up. Boom. Derek Peterson: Yeah. That was a good one. ⁓ Yeah, if you are wrestling, if you're a Catholic and you're wrestling with the Pope's comments and telling him to stay in his lane, this should be verifiable evidence that you are in a cult. Like there is no other way to explain it because it means that you do not actually believe in Catholicism. You believe in Trump and that is your... Elwyn: ⁓ That's right. Derek Peterson: you've clearly made the decision at this point. Elwyn: That's right, there's no two ways about it. And there's also just this, mean, JD Vance telling the Pope to stop talking about theology. Derek Peterson: That's it. Dude, those clips from him at, yeah, those clips from TP USA were of like from the back of the room where like there's just like nobody in there and other than it like, yeah, you're like, there was like the standing room only section of the seat, the closed seats up front, but then like, you know, the entire back half of the arena is empty. And I think they grossly miscalculated the amount of space they would need for an event like that, ⁓ which is. Elwyn: Yeah, the back of was four lines back. Well, heard Erica Kirk was supposed to be there, but she dropped out citing what she called credible threats. But someone asked the FBI if there had been any actual threats made against her that she reported. They were like, no, no. It's all good. All good for Erica Kirk. She just saw the crowd and was like, I'm fucking out. Derek Peterson: So Yeah, it tracks. Exactly, she's like, I'm not gonna be embarrassed by this, I'll let him go on and do it. So, well, what are we talking about next week, Elwyn: Yeah. No idea. Derek Peterson: No idea? Me neither. So we got gerrymandering, maybe we could talk about, you know, we can always do an episode on aliens. Let do some gerrymandering. It's coming back up. Good gerrymandering episode. All right, gerrymander this y'all next week. Have a good week. Elwyn: We can do gerrymandering. Yeah, I feel like it's time. feel like, yeah. Yeah.