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The Pastoral Search · The Church Renewal Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: I'm Jeremy, I'm Matt.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: We've already discussed the first and second phases of a church in transition.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: The first phase the church health assessment and the second phase what is envisioning are linked in the episode description below.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to these episodes, stop right now and go listen to them.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Then come back here.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Welcome back.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just assuming that you did actually stop and listen to the other episodes.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: So, with that as the foundation, today Matt and I will sit down to talk about the final phase in the transition process, the pastoral search.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: In this phase, we're answering the question in light of who God has called us to be.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Who can take us where we're going, matt?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: How you doing?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Man?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I'm doing all right.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I'm enjoying the joke that I'm going to cut out from this recording that we were just sharing.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: You'll have to know us personally to know about the joke.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you know us personally, you can ask me and I'll send it to you.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I don't have any qualms with that.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Today we are going to talk about the last bucket, the last task of a church in transition, and that is the pastoral search.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: And that's dealing with the question who can take us, based on who we are called to be by God, who can take us where we're going?
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Matt, would you talk to us a little bit about that part of the process?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Sure, so pastoral search comes to the third phase of our church transition process church health assessment, envisioning, pastor search.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: So we're in the third phase.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: It's the moment that everyone's been waiting for.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Right is when we actually get to hey, who's going to be our next pastor?
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: This phase begins after the church health assessment phase is long past the envisioning phase.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: It can begin towards the end, where we start to put the packet together.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: That'll be the advertising piece.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: We call that a lead pastor packet.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: But the first task in this phase is to nail down the pastor profile.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: And so we work with the elders and the staff first, and then other leaders and then the congregation at large to try and get nailed down.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: What do we need in our next pastor?
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Not what do we want, not what have we had before, not what's the clone of the previous guy or the exact opposite of the previous guy, which are the tendencies that churches make.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: But what do we need in our next pastor?
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Having come to better know the us.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Right, I recognize that you're giving the cliff notes of a big book right now.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, For sure, I recognize that the cliff notes version.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: So the question in this phase is who can take us there?
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: We've come to a better understanding of us because of our church health assessment and some of the envisioning phase and gifts and values and philosophy.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: We know us better.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: We're owning our history and our present in terms of health.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: We have a sense from the Lord of what direction we're going.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Then now we're looking for somebody who, in light of who we are and where God's leading us, who can take us there.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: And so that leads into the making of the pastor profile, which rounds out the packet that we use to advertise.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Let me pause there and just ask a little bit more about that.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: So you're looking for questions like not just does this guy have a seminary degree?
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Is he licensed in the right denomination?
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Can he preach?
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Do we have samples of his preaching?
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: These are questions that would also get into his personality, his particular strengths, maybe even his background.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, his experiences, his gifts, what he likes to do, how he wants to spend his time.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: We had a church that we worked with.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: We started the process last year.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: They found a pastor just about a month ago from when we're recording this, and one of the things that we purposefully put in the description of the job is that the guy would only preach 65% of the time.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Okay, and so we put that because there was a lot of leadership meetings, people to develop that this new lead pastor was going to need to do, and so that was a large bucket of time, and so what we wanted to say to him was you're not going to preach every week.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: And so if you're a guy who's mainly teacher preacher, doesn't want to do leadership a lot of leadership stuff, doesn't want to do a lot of giving direction, doesn't want to take a lot of meetings with leaders there's a large church, 600 people then this isn't the job for you, Because this job's going to be a lot of that and you're only going to preach 65% of the time.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: There was another very capable preacher on staff that people appreciated and the church didn't want to stop using him.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: They wanted to keep using him and we made that fine of a point because we wanted to weed out people.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: We wanted people who were just like no, I want to preach, like 90% of the time, this isn't the job for me.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Good, it's not the job for you.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: We need somebody who's as excited about meeting with leaders as they are about preaching, because that's what the church needed in the next pastor.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: So that's our main focus.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: What do we need in our next pastor?
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: And that's a different question than most people are asking.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: So you want to link to when narcissism comes to church?
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: We can do that.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great book.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: My quip about when narcissism comes to church Jared's heard this is so this is a Chuck DeGroote book.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: We will link to it in the show notes is my quip about when I read when narcissism comes to church the first time, was it offered more opportunity for reflection and repentance than I expected.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: And it's marvelous.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: And every pastor should read it Really, every elder board should read it, frankly, because it's that good and so helpful.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: I think you asked a little bit earlier, jer, how is the transitional pastor involved in this aspect of the process?
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my next question, but I wanted to make sure that you've had the opportunity to answer the question.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Is there more with the bucket itself that you haven't already spoken to?
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Because my next question is what is the transitional pastor's role on the search committee itself?
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: So here's the way that this typically runs.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: So we work on the profile, you get the packet to a finished state.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: You use the packet in a finished state to actually recruit the search committee.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: This is distinctive of our process.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: The most important trait of somebody in the pastoral search committee is they are enthusiastic about finding a pastor who fits that profile.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: So we want to put the work into the profile and make it distinct enough that when you have just gone a step or two with a guy, you can go oh no, he doesn't fit the profile.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: That's how distinct we want to get, because if it's just broad and anybody can fit it, it doesn't actually help you.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: We want it to get distinct enough that somebody can go now, this guy doesn't fit us.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: And so that's why we put that work in at the outset, and so that profile you're going to be taking place to churchjobscom and other Whatever the appropriate venue is for the particular church.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: We'll help the church post it itself.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: We'll post it in some places ourselves and basically get the word out that this is available.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, so the most important trait of somebody on a pastor search committee is that they are enthusiastic about finding a pastor who fits that profile.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Because our process is distinct.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Our pastor search process is distinct in that we are passionate about matching candidates to profile, so we don't pit candidates head to head, we pit candidates against the profile, and that is distinctive about the process that we do.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: So the quick overview of the past research process is we make the profile, we help the elder board get a suitable committee in place, a past research committee in place, who are all enthusiastic about the profile.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: This is all stuff that the transitional pastor would be doing Going to train the search committee in their work about how to go about it.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: They're going to take a period of time and gel and get together as a team.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: They'll practice some particularly listening through sermons together and learning how to listen to and evaluate a sermon, which every single person who listens to a sermon evaluates it.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: They just don't do it necessarily in a structured way, and then talk about it and try and get to a place where the committee has a sense oh, this is an appropriate preacher for us.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: And so we actually let them, we want them to practice some, and then they start looking at candidates and taking them through the process.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: We teach them a many-step process, more than 15 steps that candidates need to walk through in order to come out at the end and be the one that's recommended to the congregation.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: The transitional pastor is the one who trains the committee and then is the one who is there, available as a coach to the committee.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: So, in our setting at least, the transitional pastor is not a voting member to the committee.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: So, in our setting at least, the transitional pastor is not a voting member of the committee.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: They may be a oh, I lost the phrase Ex officio, so they may attend meetings.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: It really depends upon the church and what they want.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: But here's what I would say If we've done the work all the way up to here, there's a clear profile, there's a clear process, the committee follows the process, they're equipped to do the work and all the transitional pastor needs to do is be available as a coach.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Be available to them if they've got questions or they run into a conundrum or they need help evaluating something.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Transition is always there, but they don't necessarily need him to weigh in a ton because we've done the work ahead of time.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Does the presence of the transitional pastor sorry, that was a slip does the presence of the transitional pastor muddy up the water, either for the search committee or for the future pastor?
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: I think actually it can.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: That's why I like at this point, if you've done the work well, get out of the way, be available as a coach.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: But I think that sometimes transitionals can unduly influence things, and I think they just have to be careful of that.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: It's this congregation that has to live with the selection of the next pastor, and so we need to trust them that the Lord will enable them to do the work.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: So this isn't choosing arranging a marriage, so much as it's matchmaking, if I can use that analogy.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: I think that's helpful.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: So I think many times a transitional pastor I'm thinking of a guy right now that's just at the end of concluding a transitional pastor in a church and I got to know him when he was finishing in the previous church, that he was in before this one, and I got to know him when he was finishing in the previous church that he was in before this one, and he was actually the guy who picked up the phone and called a candidate and said hey, I think you should apply, and in my mind, it's absolutely suitable that transitional pastors encourage particular people to apply, and then it's absolutely suitable to let the Lord work and see what happens.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Apply, and then it's absolutely suitable to let the Lord work and see what happens.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I've got, I've got another guy on my roster who, uh, tech was texting me at this very particular point, um, as he's working with this as a transitional pastor in the church, and uh, and he says, oh, this guy just came in and I know that he should be the guy, but how do I stay out of the soup making so that I don't mess?
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: this up and I said you just answered the question yourself so that I don't mess this up and I said you just answered the question yourself.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: He applied Now you pray and you stay available as a coach, and the committee was also able to see when they evaluated his stuff.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: They're like does anybody not think that this isn't our top candidate?
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: And that's awesome, and so many times I think for the transitional it is.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: It'll test your faith.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: It'll test your faith because you really, at that point for the transitional, you have to trust the Lord that he's going to work and enable that committee to to call the person, recommend the person to the congregation, to the elder board and the congregation that's.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: That's God's man for the job.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Dear listener, we're going to jump into that particular topic in our next episode.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Much the job, dear listener, we're going to jump into that particular topic in our next episode.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Much more deeply so, if that interests you.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Stay tuned, matt, what actual authority does the transitional pastor have during the search process.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Zero.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Zero is the authority of the coach.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Is the authority of a coach which is someone alongside?
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Uh, the authority is rests in, and this is even in most polities, presbyterian or otherwise the authority rests in the committee.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: They're the ones that make the recommendation, first to the elder board and then, if the elder board is satisfied with the candidate, then to the congregation.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, so what would you say to the person who raises a concern to you?
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Matt, my concern is that a transitional pastor is going to look to duplicate himself in the next lead pastor.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's actually a good concern.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: It's something that we sort of unconsciously do anyhow, I think.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Having done transitional work myself, I think that you can sort of look at it and go, oh, this church needs somebody like me, and so if you're conscious of that, then you can keep that bias from creeping in and you can be okay with.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: This church needs somebody very different than me, and I'm okay with that.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: That's not a dig against me or my experience or my personality or my gifts or anything.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: This church just needs somebody very different than me.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: And so I'm actually going to not only just support that, I'm going to insist on that, because it's what the church needs and that's what I'm here for.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I'm here to help the church and what it needs.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: So can a transitional pastor become the next lead pastor in that church?
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: No absolutely not.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: So we tell clients that at the outset and we tell transitional pastors that we recruit that at the outset.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: The reason that that is out of bounds and does not happen, at least in our organization, the reason that it doesn't happen is if people know that are the ground rules going in, the congregants don't get their expectations up, or elder boards or transitional pastors Nobody gets their hopes up for this guy.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: The other thing is if the guy comes in and he's like, oh, this is pretty cush, I could really like this job, then he's going to hold back.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: He's not going to speak the truth in love more than likely.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: He's not going to do truth and grace at the same time.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: He's going to do what?
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Not going to speak the truth in love more than likely.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: He's not going to do truth and grace at the same time.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: He's going to do what's going to pad his own nest, and that's not what he's there for.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: He's not there to pad his own nest, he's there to work himself out of a job and leave it better than when he came and help the church find a suitable next pastor.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I continue to be struck by the prominence of the understanding that the transitional pastor has to maintain that he is merely a temporary under-shepherd.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I'm using temporary there on purpose.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: And there's actually a book Temporary Shepherds.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: That is one of the most critical in this space that if you were somebody, say, who wanted to think about being a transitional ambassador with Flourish, we'd encourage you to email us info at flourishcoachingorg.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I'd love to talk to you, but it is absolutely a temporary shepherd and if you think about yourself that way, it keeps you focused on.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: I am here to get these people through these three processes and then get out of dodge, and that's the most important thing that you can do Not too quickly and the right timing.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: But that's what I'm here to.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: I'm here to work myself out of a job, so this church is in a better place, healthier place, and they've got a suitable next pastor ready to step in.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: So in landing this, are there other concerns that I haven't raised that you have heard that you would like to address here, regarding either the process itself or the TP's role through this?
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: I think one of the areas that is actually in the theory among practitioners about pastor search, the degree of influence, action, availability of the TP to the committee, his role in relationship to the committee that's actually an area of open investigation and discussion among practitioners.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: And so I've stated the general way that I interacted as a transitional pastor and that I expect that is generally assumed, at least in my setting.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: It is the case that in other settings I'm thinking of a good friend who's a transitional pastor with a different organization and he attended every pastor search committee meeting and he did exert some influence and I don't discredit that.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: I think that the one place where I saw him act the most, the one church where he was transitional, where I was the closest to it, it was critical and good that he did and they welcomed it.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: So I think that's the critical component is the search committee needs to welcome whatever involvement the transitional pastor has with them.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: That's most critical.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Involvement the transitional pastor has with them, that's most critical.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Not that the transitional pastor intrudes himself, but he is willing to be as available as the committee wants him to Does that make sense?
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: It does.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: And.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: I guess my final question there would be.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: I'm picturing your average PCA guy listening to this, and that leads me to this question.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: If someone wanted to dig in more to what that discussion is, what the possible modalities are, where could they go to find more information?
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: As far as I know, that doesn't exist.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: That would be a working group that I'm thinking about putting together of people who are top level practitioners in this to bounce it around in this, to bounce that around, because there's just.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: All I know right now is that the conversation is open and that there is frank and good disagreement between practitioners.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the few open places in this conversation.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Intriguing.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Well, we're going to leave it there with that question mark.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: More to come.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Stay tuned, We'll catch up with you guys very soon.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that, this day dawned, jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy.
• 18:04
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• 18:07
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• 18:13
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• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Thank you has been licensed and was composed and created by artists.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: The Church Renewal Podcast was produced by me, jeremy Seferati, in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you.