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Off Record: Inside a Kratom Wrongful Death Case (with Michael Cowgill) · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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  Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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  Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: exactly right media.
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  Speaker 3: It takes a while for an autopsy and toxicollege your
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  Speaker 3: report to be done. The family were shocked right when
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  Speaker 3: they heard the results that it was creating.
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  Speaker 4: The causeless death.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm patia Eton, I'm
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  Speaker 2: Hannah Smith. Today we're going to speak with attorney Michael
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  Speaker 2: Cowgill about a wrongful death case of a thirty nine
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  Speaker 2: year old husband and father, Patrick Coin. But before we
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  Speaker 2: get into that interview, we want to talk about something
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  Speaker 2: called cretom. You may have heard of it, you may
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  Speaker 2: you may have seen it being sold at a gain
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  Speaker 2: gas station near you. This episode involves kretum in a
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  Speaker 2: pretty major way, and so before we get into the case,
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  Speaker 2: we wanted to talk just a little bit about what
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  Speaker 2: it is and give anyone who might not be familiar
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  Speaker 2: some context for kretem. Yeah. So kreatum. You've probably walked
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  Speaker 2: right past it before, even if you weren't aware, because
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  Speaker 2: it's pretty easy to come by, and it's actually spelled krtom.
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  Speaker 2: It comes from a plant, a tropical evergreen tree native
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  Speaker 2: to Southeast Asia, and it can be marketed and sold
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  Speaker 2: as different things a mood enhancer, energy booster, or pain reliever.
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  Speaker 2: People utilize it for all three of those reasons, but
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  Speaker 2: we hear about it a lot, especially for pain relief,
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  Speaker 2: and it typically comes in powder form or capsules. You
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  Speaker 2: can also find it in extracts, edibles, and sometimes as
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  Speaker 2: a drink and all of that, like at a gas station. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: like very very easy to come back kratum.
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  Speaker 1: I first heard about it in twenty twenty when I
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  Speaker 1: was researching a different story, which I'll talk a little
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  Speaker 1: bit more about at the end of the episode. But
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  Speaker 1: I had never heard of it before. I was surprised
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  Speaker 1: to find, just from a little bit of research on
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  Speaker 1: the Internet at that time, that there were a lot
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  Speaker 1: of ardent supporters online of kretom, people on social media,
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  Speaker 1: on YouTube, on Reddit, who were making these claims like
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  Speaker 1: this changed my life. I was in chronic pain. I
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  Speaker 1: started taking creatim talking about it almost like it was
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  Speaker 1: this miracle substance. And yeah, there's still I mean, you
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  Speaker 1: could go on Reddit and read tons of anecdotes of
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  Speaker 1: people claiming that it changed their life for the better,
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  Speaker 1: that they love it, that it's kind of like this
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  Speaker 1: miracle whatever drug plant. I don't know if they would
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  Speaker 1: call it a drug.
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  Speaker 2: Some of the yeah, a miracle supplement made supplement. And
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  Speaker 2: then there's the other side of this where you could
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  Speaker 2: find whole reddit communities online communities of people who say
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  Speaker 2: has wrecked their life. And I've given it the nickname
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  Speaker 2: gas station Heroin. It's also very popular in pop culture.
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  Speaker 2: Joe Rogan spoke about it on his podcast, and in
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  Speaker 2: one twenty eighteen episode, he said he had taken it
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  Speaker 2: for some knee pain and that it was helpful to him.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. John Oliver also did an expose on it. It
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  Speaker 1: was more about supplements that are sold at gas stations
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  Speaker 1: and the loose regulations on those supplements, so it wasn't
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  Speaker 1: just about Credon, but he did talk about it. And yeah,
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  Speaker 1: you know, since twenty twenty and when I look again
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  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six, you're right, there's so many more
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  Speaker 1: stories out there now than before about people who claim
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  Speaker 1: that they got addicted to it, that they started taking
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  Speaker 1: it thinking, oh, I just pick this up at the
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  Speaker 1: gas station. It's called a supplement. Maybe it's kind of
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  Speaker 1: like taking a vitamin, but it's going to boost my
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  Speaker 1: energy and help with my back pain or whatever. And
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  Speaker 1: then these horror stories of how they quickly were taking
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  Speaker 1: more and more and got really addicted and how it
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  Speaker 1: messed with their mind and with their body. And there's
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  Speaker 1: a lot more people speaking out now about how this
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  Speaker 1: might actually be dangerous.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So this group of people that's advocating for crem
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  Speaker 2: being a positive thing, they would like for it to
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  Speaker 2: remain readily available and they do not want the pharmaceutical
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  Speaker 2: industry getting involved because the pharmaceutical industry has regulations and
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  Speaker 2: obviously that's an imperfect industry, but it will certainly make
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  Speaker 2: it or I would predict, make it harder to come
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  Speaker 2: by and more expensive, definitely.
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  Speaker 1: And Michael Cowgil talks a little bit about it. We
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  Speaker 1: don't go too much into the weeds on like the
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  Speaker 1: specific laws around cretum, but he talks about it being
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  Speaker 1: not criminalized. Right, So there's been different efforts to have
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  Speaker 1: it also criminalized. There's people saying this is a drug
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  Speaker 1: and it just you can just buy it anywhere, but
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  Speaker 1: there's been a lot of pushback whenever there's an attempt
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  Speaker 1: to also criminalize it, both to criminalize it as well
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  Speaker 1: as to have it taken over by the pharmaceutical industry.
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  Speaker 1: There's a lot of people who want it to just
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  Speaker 1: kind of remain as it is available, which I understand,
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  Speaker 1: but also, you know, there's a lot of complications to that,
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  Speaker 1: which we'll get into.
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  Speaker 2: Right because there are also deaths that have been attributed
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  Speaker 2: to creedom, multiple deaths enough that it's garnered the attention
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  Speaker 2: of attorneys like Michael cawgill, but also the community that
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  Speaker 2: was saying, hey, this is a highly addictive substance, and
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  Speaker 2: that is why there's a bigger push now to regulate
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  Speaker 2: it more than it is. So it's incredibly controversial, not
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  Speaker 2: widely studied yet. And so today we're speaking with an attorney.
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  Speaker 2: His name is Michael Cowgill, and we're going to speak
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  Speaker 2: with him specifically about a wrongful death lawsuit that he
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  Speaker 2: litigated that had to do with cretum, and that is
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  Speaker 2: the death of thirty nine year old husband and father,
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  Speaker 2: Patrick Coin.
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  Speaker 1: We will be back at the end of the episode
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  Speaker 1: to discuss it, So stick around and don't forget to
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  Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram and Blue Sky at the Knife
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  Speaker 1: podcast You can also email us at the Knife at
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  Speaker 1: exactly rightmedia dot com.
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  Speaker 2: Let's get into the interview. Hi, Michael, thank you so
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  Speaker 2: much for taking the time to speak with us today.
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  Speaker 4: Happy to be here.
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  Speaker 1: We're really excited to talk with you. Patia has been
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  Speaker 1: telling me about her conversations with you, and yeah, I'm
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  Speaker 1: really thrilled to hear what you have to say today.
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  Speaker 3: I'm excited to be here and you know, speak with
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  Speaker 3: both you Patient and Hannah as well, and excited to
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  Speaker 3: talk create them.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know. I actually first heard of kretom
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  Speaker 2: back when I was listening to season one of a
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  Speaker 2: show Hannah used to work on, Hannah and I used
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  Speaker 2: to work on, but I wasn't a part of that
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  Speaker 2: for a season. So Hannah has even more knowledge of
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  Speaker 2: it than well, not even more, she just has more.
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  Speaker 1: I don't have very much other than the research I'm
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  Speaker 1: doing it, Yeah, but I will it. I've never received
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  Speaker 1: so many emails from listeners as people who wrote to
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  Speaker 1: me about the way I covered kreatim. There was a
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  Speaker 1: lot of opinions, and that was like sort of my
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  Speaker 1: first clue that this was something that people care a
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  Speaker 1: lot about.
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  Speaker 3: So it's a hotpun issue with people on both sides
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  Speaker 3: per se that are very, very passionate.
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  Speaker 2: So I reached out to you because you worked on
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  Speaker 2: a wrongful death case involving creedom and the death of
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  Speaker 2: a man named Patrick Coin. If you wouldn't mind starting
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  Speaker 2: by telling us a little bit about how you first
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  Speaker 2: became involved with the case, Yeah, no problem.
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  Speaker 3: So you know, it's sort of cliche, the idea of
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  Speaker 3: a client walking into a law office, you know, with
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  Speaker 3: a case that you had no idea was coming. Something
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  Speaker 3: you see on TV. Maybe it doesn't really happen that way.
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  Speaker 3: Clients don't show up in offices as much as.
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  Speaker 4: They used to.
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  Speaker 3: But within MCT Law, one of the attorneys who worked
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  Speaker 3: on the Patrick Coin case lead council actually was Tallis
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  Speaker 3: Avaloons out of our Seattle office. Tallis was contacted and
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  Speaker 3: then reached out to me and said, hey, let's take
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  Speaker 3: a look at this. This looks like a potentially interesting
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  Speaker 3: case with a novel substance. And tragically, as we looked
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  Speaker 3: into it, I realized we've got Patrick Coyn who passed
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  Speaker 3: away in Callus County, Washington. It's about how we're north
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  Speaker 3: of Portland, Oregon for reference, you know, looking at it.
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  Speaker 3: It's like you've got a coroner who determined the cause
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  Speaker 3: of death was a creative overdose. Essentially, this started making
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  Speaker 3: me think, you know, cretim. I had heard of that before,
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  Speaker 3: and when I was in law school, students were taking
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  Speaker 3: it essentially as a stimulant to help work through the
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  Speaker 3: grind of law school. I had no idea or any
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  Speaker 3: thought at that point that kretom could kill anybody. So
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  Speaker 3: we started doing research, talking to experts and realized, you know,
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  Speaker 3: this is a tragedy. Family lost their husband, their father,
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  Speaker 3: their primary breadwinner.
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  Speaker 1: We'd love to kind of have you walk us through
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  Speaker 1: the case, starting with who was Patrick coin? You know,
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  Speaker 1: what can you tell us about him as a person
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  Speaker 1: and what his life looked like.
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  Speaker 3: Patrick Coyne was a true blue Washingtonian. You know, he
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  Speaker 3: was someone who worked as a boat mechanic full time
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  Speaker 3: down in Portland, Oregon. He was the primary mechanic at
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  Speaker 3: a marina there on the Columbia River. He actually went
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  Speaker 3: to the convenience store across the street every day to
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  Speaker 3: get an orange juice to mix his creative into and
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  Speaker 3: that was his work. But above all, he was a
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  Speaker 3: family man. You know, he had his wife and two kids,
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  Speaker 3: and actually effectively a third kid that was not his
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  Speaker 3: by blood, but that's who Patrick was.
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  Speaker 4: You know.
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  Speaker 3: It was a family member's child who needed someone to
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  Speaker 3: take care of him, and Patrick took him in, took
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  Speaker 3: care of him, and he worked hard to provide for
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  Speaker 3: his kids. Every day he came back from work, he
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  Speaker 3: would bring his kids a treat. He would get them,
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  Speaker 3: you know, a little candy or something right, because he
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  Speaker 3: didn't like coming home empty handed any day.
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  Speaker 4: You know.
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  Speaker 3: They loved camping. He was always out camping, hiking, riding
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  Speaker 3: dirt bikes atv he's fishing, very sort of classic Northwest
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  Speaker 3: experience and that's really who Patrick was. He was well loved, unfortunately,
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  Speaker 3: because he worked as a boat mechanic. You can imagine
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  Speaker 3: he was crouched over all the time working on engines, motors,
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  Speaker 3: so forth, working in consoles inside of boats which are
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  Speaker 3: tight spaces. And Patrick was a big guy. He was tall,
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  Speaker 3: and he developed back issues. So he had back pain.
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  Speaker 3: That's actually what in part drove him to use kretom.
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  Speaker 3: You know, he had been prescribed pain medication. And I
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  Speaker 3: think everybody knows about the opiate epidemic in this country,
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  Speaker 3: and it's Unfortunately, directly, cretum is directly tied to that epidemic.
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  Speaker 3: Patrick didn't want to get addicted to prescribed opiates, and
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  Speaker 3: he thought that kratim was a safe alternative, something that
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  Speaker 3: could give him pain relief without having the same risks
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  Speaker 3: of addiction and other adverse ricks such as death and
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  Speaker 3: overdose from prescription opiates. Unfortunately, he started using kratum and
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  Speaker 3: he did get addicted and that's what killed him.
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  Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about like
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  Speaker 1: what type of cretem he was taking. I think there
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  Speaker 1: are a lot of people that take it to stay
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  Speaker 1: awake or as you've said with Patrick, like a different
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  Speaker 1: kind of pain relief. And so what type of kretem
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  Speaker 1: product was Patrick taking?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, Patrick used powdered kretum. Kreatum Divine was the brand,
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  Speaker 3: and it was essentially a small brown bag with a
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  Speaker 3: see through window on the front, sticker on it with
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  Speaker 3: the branding the green and it kind of varies in
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  Speaker 3: color from green tannish brown, and it was just creton powder.
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  Speaker 3: So you know what happens because kretum primarily comes from
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  Speaker 3: Southeast Asia, Indonesia more than anywhere else. Essentially it's grown
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  Speaker 3: there fresh, you know, just grown on a tree. It's
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  Speaker 3: a leaf that grows on a tree. They pull it
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  Speaker 3: off the tree, dry it in the sun, and grind
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  Speaker 3: it up into a powder.
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  Speaker 2: In the case of the kraton that Patrick was taking,
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  Speaker 2: how did he become introduced to it or where did
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  Speaker 2: he find it?
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  Speaker 3: As I recall Patrick's co worker that the marina introduced
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  Speaker 3: him to create them for pain relief purposes essentially, and
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  Speaker 3: showed them, you know, the stuff right across the street
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  Speaker 3: and sort of present it as all natural. You know,
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  Speaker 3: it has this aura of safety and health around it
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  Speaker 3: as an all natural substance.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 3: It's the plants. Their plants don't hurt you. So that
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  Speaker 3: was his introduction to it. He, like a lot of folks,
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  Speaker 3: would scoop it into orange juice and mix it with
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  Speaker 3: orange juice because kraatum is known to have a pretty
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  Speaker 3: horrible taste, you know, legedly extremely bitter, earthy in a
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  Speaker 3: negative way, and so folks try to mix it with
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  Speaker 3: things that mask its flavor or you know, off to
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  Speaker 3: take it in other forms, just pills or liquid shots.
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  Speaker 3: But in Patrick's case, he was mixing it with orange juice.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you know about his kreatim usage. Did
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  Speaker 1: he appear to think that it was working for him?
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  Speaker 1: And how did his usage change over time? Was he
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  Speaker 1: consistently taking the same dose or did that change?
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  Speaker 3: He used the same product you all the way through
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  Speaker 3: from start to finish, creative Divine powder, and he did
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  Speaker 3: think it was working for him. He stopped taking prescription
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  Speaker 3: opiates and was getting the pain relief that he needed
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  Speaker 3: from Credom. But he did use more over time. Just
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  Speaker 3: like with a lot of substances, the tolerance builds and
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  Speaker 3: addiction can form. And I think that was the story
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  Speaker 3: for Unfortunately for Patrick.
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  Speaker 2: It sounds like Patrick's friend fellow but Mechanic was familiar
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  Speaker 2: with creedem, introduces him to cretem. Any of his close
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  Speaker 2: friends or family members were they aware that he was
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  Speaker 2: taking it? And did you hear of money one having
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  Speaker 2: concerns prior to his death, which we'll get into.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, his family, you know, his wife was aware that
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  Speaker 3: he was using it. He would mix the drink at
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  Speaker 3: home at night, so she knew that he was using it.
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  Speaker 3: And everybody was under the impression that it was all natural,
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  Speaker 3: safe and alternative to prescription drugs, and with a stigma
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  Speaker 3: around prescription opiates, any sort of all natural alternative had
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  Speaker 3: a lot of appeal.
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  Speaker 2: How long was he using Freedom?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a few years, I recall that, but
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  Speaker 3: I couldn't give you an exact answer.
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  Speaker 2: So getting into sort of the chain of events leading
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: up to Patrick's death, what do you know about the
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: days leading up to the night he passed away?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, as I recall, the days leading up to his
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: passing weren't much different than any other day, and the
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: night of his passing was fairly standard as well. Him
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: and his family got together with very close family friends.
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  Speaker 4: They had a dinner.
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  Speaker 3: I know, Patrick and his good buddy were working in
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  Speaker 3: the garage. I believe they were working on ATVs or dirtbikes,
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: something of that nature. They had some drinks. There was,
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  Speaker 3: you know, some whiskey, but not anything concerning right, not
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: you know, an innumerable amount or any amount that showed
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: up as a problem on an autopsy or toxicology report.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: He went home, you know, with the family. He was
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: in fine condition to drive and so forth went home,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: mixed his radom and he actually went to sleep on
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: his recliner. Patrick had sleep apnea and had a seapap
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: that he used and sometimes sleeping in the recliner would
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: help with that. So that night he did sleep on
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: his recliner, and unfortunately he never woke up.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Who found Patrick the next day?
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  Speaker 3: His wife, miss Coin. She came over and, as I recall,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: she heard what seemed like, you know, snoring or sleeping noises,
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: and then let him be, but then stopped hearing those noises,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: and that raised some concern for her, and she went
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: over and realized he wasn't breathing, and that's when you know,
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: she called others in the house, called nine one one,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: tried to get life saving measures underway, and unfortunately they
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: weren't able to resuscitate him, and he passed.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: I can't even imagine being the one to find my
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: husband and having passed away. I mean, my heart goes
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: out to her, truly. So Patrick's wife calls nine to
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: one one. He's passed by the time she finds him,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: and of course then paramedics arrive. How does the investigation
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: into what caused his death unful?
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  Speaker 3: So you know, the whole family's there. You've got ems
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: that arrives on the scene, tries life saving measures, fails.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: Some police arrived on the scene, I believe, and the
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: coroner's office always sends out an investigator, particularly when it's
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: not readily obvious, you know, how someone passed away, and
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  Speaker 3: particularly when they're relatively young. So an investigator comes out,
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  Speaker 3: starts examining the scene and notes, you know that there's
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  Speaker 3: some creative packaging. If I recall, I believe it was
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: on the kitchen counter. And when I say I recall,
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: you know, this case was a few years ago, so
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: I might not be remembering things exactly, but so I
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: believe that the investigator found some of the creative packaging
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: on the kitchen counter.
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  Speaker 4: And even at that point.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: The investigator and the police, they recognize that there's something
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: up with cratom right, they had seen other that's involving kreatum.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: It takes a while for an autopsy and toxicology report
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: to be done. Coin and the family were shocked right
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: when they heard the results that it was Credom that
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: caused this death.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, especially because he was thirty nine, right, and
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  Speaker 1: you had said he obviously had some back issues that
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: had troubled him, but you know, was there anything else
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  Speaker 1: about his health that, as far as his family is aware,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: at the time, that seemed unusual or like he had
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: a pre existing heart condition or something like that, or
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: or was it just like we think we have this
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: healthy father and husband and then suddenly he's dead.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say it was more the latter. There
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: was no real reason to think that Patrick would just
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: suddenly die. He had been going to his doctors regularly
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: because you know, I talked about the pain treatment he
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: had been receiving in the past, So he was someone
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: that had doctors he would go to and I kept
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: going to. I believe he even shared with one of
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: his doctors that he was using Credom, and they didn't
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: They didn't really tell him, you know, good or bad,
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: kind of noted it and moved on. So he didn't
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: have any reason to think that there was anything wrong
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: with this stuff. Right, And the sad reality and retrospect,
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: and I think it's still an issue is a lot
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: of physicians just don't know about Credom or know about
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: its risks. But yet there was no real indication that
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Patrick would just suddenly die. I shared with you that
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: he had sleep apnea, was using CPAP. The defense tried
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: to run with that in the case you know that
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: there's some truth. You know, there's medical literature out there
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: about negative impacts on sleep and oxygenation and so forth,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: But no basis to think that that caused this death.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Like I said earlier, Patrick was a larger guy. Defense
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: counsel tried to make hay out of that as well.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: You know, he had an enlarged heart and was slightly overweight,
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: that kind of thing. But again, no implication whatsoever that
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: those played a role in this death. There was no
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: evidence of that. The evidence was clear it was creatim.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: On the actual death certificate or like toxicology report, does
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: does it list like cause of death overdose or does
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: it say creatum specifically?
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Does not say creatum specifically. The exact quote is the
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: toxic effects of matrogenine parentheses creatum. And that's because matrageny
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: is the primary alkaloid within the creatum plant and is
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: the alkaloid that is tested by toxicology labs. But creatum
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: contains roughly forty ish alkaloids. More of them are being studied,
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: and I think slowly right now more alkaloids are being
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: tested for, But at that time it was just matrageny,
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: and so that's why it says that.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: So his family once they receive the toxicology report. They
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: approach your colleague in Seattle about a possible wrongful death case.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: I guess I want to talk a little bit first
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: about why it would be important for them to pursue that.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: And I know you mentioned earlier in our conversation that
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Patrick was the breadwinner. Can you kind of speak to
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: the outside of the incredible heartache that I think any
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: family would feel to lose lose some one they love.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: What was the other sort of strain that his death
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: put on their family and their household.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll tell you, you know, it's true of this
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: case and every other that I have and have done
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: wrongful death. It's never really about the money, right. I
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: think everybody jumps to that because our system of justice
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: is set up that way.
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: The only thing anyone's ever going to get out of
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: a civil case like this is monetary damages, and nobody
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: ever feels like that's justice.
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: We're never able to bring back the loved one they've lost,
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: And that's true of this case and others. Like I said,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: but when we were approached, and I think this is
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: true in other cases as well, folks are just lost.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: They're trying to understand, right, and this is very true
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: in kreatim, where they start looking online trying to understand
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: what is creative. You know, this killed my family member?
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: Why how they may come across our office in that
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: sort of research, and then I find that a lot
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: of people reach out because they're just looking to understand
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: how and why they've lost the loved one. And that's
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: when they start exploring while you know, is there something
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: here that can be done? And that's really what happened here,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: and I think a lot of it is driven from
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: and you know, this is why simple coin miss coin
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: even gave me permission to speak to you all about this.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: Right she wants more than anything else for the world
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: to hear these stories, to hear the story of Patrick,
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: and to hear stories of how creatum is harming people,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: because it's a pretty powerful industry in terms of the
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: lobbying strength, and there is a lot of folks using kreatum.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of folks out there using
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: kreatom that have positive stories to share, and you know,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: to miscoin, and I think for all our clients, it's
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: important that folks hear the negatives and you know, the
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: harm that this could cause and the harm that it
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: has and does cause. And so that was always the
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: primary driver. And every client we have, including this coin,
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: more than anything, just wants this stuff off the shelf
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: so that no other family has to lose a loved one.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: And that's really what d'reve this case.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know you mentioned that earlier in the evening
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: before Patrick passed away, he had had just a couple
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: of drinks that did not on the toxocology report seemed
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: to be anything that could have contributed to this. But
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: how do you as lawyers decide this is a wrongful
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: death case that we think we can win when someone
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: does have multiple substances in their system.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Right, And so this was not a case with multiple substances, right,
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: And I want to make that clear as well, because
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: that is one of the primary things you hear from
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: the creative industry that you know, every kreatum death involves
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: multiple substances, and you know that wasn't the case here.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: This was a straight creatom death. From that, multiple substances
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: might mean prescription substances at therapeutic levels, right, Like, if
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: you're prescribed an SSRI or something, right Like, it's pretty
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: common and you might have it at therapeutic levels, and
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: they're going to try to claim that that killed you somehow,
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: But this wasn't one of those cases. But how do
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: we decide, you know, this is a case to take.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: It's a lot of due diligence. You know, we had
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: to really dig in on kreatum, enlist experts, medical doctors,
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: you know, toxicologists to understand how does creatum function pharmacologically,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: what was to do in the human body? You know,
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: it really comes down to can creatum cause death? And
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: did it cause this specific death?
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can explain it to me, like
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: I'm a child, what's going on with the scientific explanation
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: of the chemical makeup of kreatum. You know, I've read
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: a little bit about it online, as I said, just
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: from like some of the podcasts it's come up before,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: so I'm very familiar with what you mentioned about. You know,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: cretems porters have this claim that no one ever dies
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: from just cretum alone, maybe they had another opiod in
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: the system or whatever. There's a lot of impetus for
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: people that are pro kreatum to defend it, obviously, and
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: then I've heard people say it at low doses it
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: acts like coffee kind of or a stimulant, and then
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: at higher doses it acts as a pain killer like
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: an opioid. But what is actually going on with what
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: kretim is and what you had to find out about
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: it to research this.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: Case, right, So that explaining it as simple as possible,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: I think you already did you know? It's like low
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: dose stimulant, high dose more so opiate effect. But it
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: gets deep in the weeds quick. And I'll say, specifically
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: for Patrick Coin, what we had and what we showed
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: the jury was a respiratory death. And you know there's
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: multiple ways you can die obviously, right, and there's multiple
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: ways that kreatum specifically can kill. It's not like oxycodone
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: or heroin where there's sort of this classic presentation of
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: an overdose death. In traditional opiate deaths, you hear about
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: what's called the foam cone, and that's sort of a
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: foam cone that forms in the mouth that is a
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: telltale sort of sign of this is an opiate overdose.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: But kreatum is itself polypharmacological. All that means is that
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: it acts on multiple receptors in our brains, So you know,
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: things like oxycodone are very targeted, right. They hit the
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: opiate receptors, and this is generally true of a lot
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: of pre market approofed drugs, whereas kreatim, you know, everybody
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: sort of focuses on the opiate receptors, and I think
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: that's fair. But it also hits the adrenergic receptors, which
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: is thought to be why it has a stimulant effect.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: It's known to have some effect on the serotonin system.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: It's done to have an effect on beta arrest, and
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: a couple other pathways, you know, neurological pathways. And then
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: you couple that with the reality that there's forty ish alkaloids,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: all of them having some sort of action in the brain,
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: you end up in a situation where we have a
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: lot of unknowns, right. So I think that we're still
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: learning a lot about kretom and it's risks, But specifically
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: with Patrick, what you had was a respiratory suppression death.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: Kreatom does cause respiratory suppression. The medical literature exists on that.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: Creatom also has the unique propensity of causing seizures, and
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: that's pretty well established in the medical literature as well.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: And then it can cause liver failure. So all of
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: those are sort of in play, but specifically, in Patrick's case,
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: it would have been a respiratory suppression death. You think
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: about how many people in our country are taking anti anxiety,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: antidepression pain meds on a daily basis that they're prescribed
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: and they're using like they're supposed to. Well, creatom can
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: have drug drug interactions with those that can cause serious
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: adverse effects.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Someone could think, oh, I'm buying this, it's safe, it's herbal.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're not taking opioids, maybe they have a low
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: dose anti anxiety met or whatever. They think it's totally unrelated.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: You're saying that could interact in ways that maybe we
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: still don't understand.
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: Oh definitely, Yeah, I think the science is developing on it.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: But yeah, you can get synergistic effects and additive effects
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: that can cause all sorts of adverse events. And we
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: know that it's possible. We know that that risk is there,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: but we don't know enough. There's not warnings, right, you know,
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: I have yet to see a creative package that says,
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: you know, if you're taking fluloxetine, don't take this product. Right,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: if you're taking prozac, don't take this product whatever it
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: may be, right, Like, it's just it's not there. And
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: a lot of people that are using creatim are using
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: prescription substances as they're supposed to. Right.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like you would go to your doctor and
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: get a prescription, and you might not think to tell
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: your doctor that you're taking this quote unquote all natural
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: substance that you could purchase you know, online or at
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: a gas station sometimes.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Getting into the trials. So this was a jury trial, correct, correct? Okay,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: what was your plan or approach into how you were
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: going to explain the you know, scientific properties of the
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: substance and show the jury that this is the reason
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Patrick Coin passed and that the manufacturer should be held responsible.
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: I think our approach was multifaceted.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: One aspect is just sharing with the jury why we're here, right,
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: who are these people?
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: Why are we here? What has happened? Right?
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: So, you know, just introductions on Patrick Coin, like we've
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: been talking about today, his wife, Civil Coin, you know,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: their children, what he meant to them and what his
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: loss meant to them. Introducing the defendants, you know, what
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: role do they play with Creighton Divine and the Creative
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: that cause this death and introducing the regulatory aspects of
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: kreatim right, because Creatum is actually not even supposed to
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: be in the country for human consumption, right. The FDA
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: has an import alert on this, and you're not really
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: supposed to be bringing it into the country to sell
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: it for human consumption.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: That's what's wild to me. Yeah, how are so many
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: people selling it if technically you're not supposed to Well, you're.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: Not supposed to import it, right, So it's all sort
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: of nuanced, right, You're not supposed to import it for
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: human consumption. People get around that import alert by labeling
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: it for cosmetic purposes, fertilizer, agricultural purposes, a specific seaweed
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: fill market that way, and then it gets in. Now,
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: once it's in, you know, it's subject to the Food
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: Drinking Cosmetic Act. And depending on how Creatim is marketed,
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: it can be regarded as a supplement or an unimproved drug.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: More commonly, creative is being sold as a supplement implements
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: our subset of food. The industry wants us to believe
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: that Creative is a food. Creative is essentially being sold
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: over the counter in violation of civil law of the Food,
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: Drug and Cosmetic Act and it's considered quote unquote adulterated
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: and misbranded. The FDA is clear on that. They say
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: it everywhere, right, Like you can look at their publications,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: their website. They've made it very clear. They've issued warning letters,
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: They've prosecuted people over this, They've prosecuted importers. Like this
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: stuff is out there. But the confusion sort of stems
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: from Creatim is not criminally illegal, right, you can have
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: something that is civilly illegal and not criminally illegal, and
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: that's sort of where Creatum lies.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, during the trial, there was a defendant which was
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: a company that you mentioned, Creatum Divine, Right, they were
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: selling this product. This was the very specific brand of Creatom.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Because there are many that Patrick was consuming. It sounds
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: like the entire time he was taking Creatim. What can
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: you tell us about Creatim Divine about like that company
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: and what their you know, claims were.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Creative Divine wasn't one of the biggest players in
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: the industry or anything like that. It's a pretty widespread
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: industry with brands and you know, groups of different sizes involved.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Creative Divine was relatively smaller family operation out of Oregon,
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: to my understanding, they were primarily distributing in the Pacific
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: Northwest and.
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: On the West Coast.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: They got into this stuff because they sort of drank
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: the kool aid on kreatim being this holistic, natural organic
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: herb that has all these medicinal properties to it, and
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: they were buying it, you know, from importers and repackaging
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: it and branding it and processing it and selling it,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: and that's what they were doing. But their website had
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: some pretty outrageous claims. They had a blog that included
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: claims like, you know, this was during COVID. It included
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: some claims that Creatom could help you with COVID, right,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: you know, there's no evidence of that. Included claims creatum
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: could provide pain relief, anti anxiety properties and so forth.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: So they were making very problematic claims and they were
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: frankly completely lacked any remorse right through this whole process.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: Really, and I don't know, I.
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Don't know if it's stemmed from like a true belief
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: that Creatom was safe, but I think the jury saw that,
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: and I think that that worked against them.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: What did the manufacturer supplier of the creedom that Patrick
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Coin was consuming. What was their stance at trial. What
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: did they say happened?
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: Their argument was essentially, you know, creative is safe, Creatom
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: doesn't cause death. They tried to character assassinate Patrick, and
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: that's sadly the reality in all these cases. You know,
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: it's a lot of he was obese, he had a
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: slightly enlarged heart, so this is just a cardiac death.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: We see that continually, I think a sad reality. Not
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: not the case in Patrick's situation, but in other cases
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: where a lot of folks discover creatom when they're in recovery,
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: you know, recovery from illicit substances or even alcoholism. Folks
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: will discover kreatum and end up with an issue. And
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: then you get into litigation and you know a lot
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: of the defense approaches, let's assassinate this person's character based
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: on their prior addictions. Well, you know, kreatum allegedly is
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: supposed to help with addiction, so it's an interesting conundrum there. Yeah,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: the defense approach was primarily that attack his character, attack
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: him as obese and having a bad heart, bringing the
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: SEPAP into that. And again I think the jury saw
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: through that.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I actually wanted to ask a clarifying question
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: that we touched on earlier, but just so I make
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: sure we're getting everything right. So even though, like you
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: mentioned the whiskey drinks, but the those absolutely did not
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: play a part, Like how does that get determined in
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: a toxicology report?
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: Right, So it's tested for and it's not on the
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: toxicology report, Okay, And that's the long and short of it.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: That said, you know, the reality, the fact that there
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: was any alcohol involved that night would cause central nervous
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: system depression. So I think, if anything, the argument exists
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: for us to say creatom could have had a synergistic
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: effect with alcohol and central nervous system depression, resulting in
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: respiratory suppression and death. And we did make that argument,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: and I think that that's a valid and good argument.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: But the toxicology report does not show the presence of alcohol.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: And did the defense try to go there at all
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: with that?
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they tried to paint a picture of you know, irresponsibility, right,
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: that Patrick was just drinking a ton the night of
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: his death, and that you know, could you believe he
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: would drive his family home and that kind of thing,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: and every witness that was there, it's like you know
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: he I think it was either he had one or
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: two shots over the course of numerous hours that they
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: had been together, that was it right, and had been
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: drinking water and other things. You get some soda, you know,
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: it's like not a situation of extreme partying or anything
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: like that, or partying at all. Really, So yeah, defendants
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: did try to go that route, and I think, you know,
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: the facts and evidence showed otherwise.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Were there any moments during the trial that you felt
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: like the jury might lean in the other direction?
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: I do remember specifically one of the defense experts. He's
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: actually a professor EUF and I believe Arison, a state
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: doctor Oliver Grinman, very well regarded pharmacologist in University of Florida,
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: is probably the primary kratom research institute that exists right now.
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: Doctor Gridman was the defense expert pharmacologists, and he was explaining,
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: you know, creatom's properties, what it does, how it works,
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: its history, And I remember his testimony at trial actually
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: helping us significantly because he admitted creatum's and opiate right.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: He came out and said it, and I know that
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: a lot of folks don't agree with that, and there's
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: nuance and arguments on both sides there, but the defense
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: expert coming out and saying that I think was a
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: very helpful thing. And you know, he had to admit
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: that he couldn't say creatum could not or did not
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: cause this death, right like he just couldn't go there.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that made all the difference.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: So in reading some of the court documents, I thought
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: it was really interesting that Cretem Divine some of their
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: specific claims were laid out, and it sounds like the
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: implored customers It says to get educated quote. And they
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: also had a free ebook that one of the founders,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Wendy Ruck, had written, called Creatim a Comprehensive Guide to
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Understanding the effects and Benefits of this amazing plant. And
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: one of the things that they claimed, I guess this
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: is quoted from the ebook, right, So I don't know
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: because I haven't looked at the website or the blog,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: but I imagine when they're selling it, it's sort of like, also,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: get our free ebook if you want to, you know,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: learn more about this plant. And one of the claims
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: they have is that you know, if you take too
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: much of this creatum that your body will let you know,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: quote by causing nausea or vomiting, and so indicating that
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: you can't overdose. I don't think they ever say you
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: can't overdose, but they talk. They say, you may have
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: heard some highly biased stories of how cretem caused someone's
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: untimely death. And then they say, keep in mind, there's
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: no scientifically confirmed recorded fact of creatum ever causing a
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: single death, so there is no need to be nervous
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: about trying it. That is what the book says. I mean,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: that's just unbelievable to me. And the fact that then
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: they're literally sitting in trial talking about a father who's
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: taken their product and who's died. But you know, from
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: your perspective and so we don't know what's happening inside
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: their brains. But you did not seem to think this
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: wasn't a moment for them of like, oh wait, hold on,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: maybe we're wrong, maybe we are selling something that is
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: irresponsible or dangerous.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: I personally never got the impression that they had that
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: realization or you know, they certainly didn't appear that way.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: I will say a couple of things though, on what
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: you mentioned on the ebook. There is this idea that
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: sort of continues even to this day of creatom being
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: quote unquote self limiting, where you can't take too much
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: of it because you're going to throw up. And you know,
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: it's interesting because some of the more recent studies have
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: confirmed that creatom definitely causes nausea and can cause vomiting.
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: But you can get past the self limiting nature, right,
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: Like putting creatum in pills is one way you can
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: take more pills than just spoons of powder, right, or
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: you know, just putting it in an orange juice, you know,
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: putting it in other other smoothies, whatever. It's just people
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: do that with all sorts of substances, including kretum, and
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: then you look at the market and you've got concentrates,
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: little liquid shots that are just way more powerful and
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: way more concentrated that are easy for you to take.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: You're getting Seltzer's lollipops. Essentially, anything that you can imagine
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: for cannabis now exists for cretum, and the notion that
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: it's going to be self limiting in some way is
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: just false. But yeah, that's something that was part of
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: the case and has persisted thereafter.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: This couple that owns kretum divine, what is their background,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: like what got them into this.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: I don't recall the one hundred percent certainty, but I believe
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: miss Rook worked in the medical field in some capacity
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: as a nurse or tech of some kind, and then
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: her husband worked, I believe, in construction, and as I recall,
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: Wendy Rooke discovered it in her work in medicine and
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: thought that it was a potential way to help people.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Again, that's the best of my recollection at this point.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: And so how many days was the trial? And then
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: if you could tell us, you know how the trial resolved.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, trial was two weeks long from start to finish,
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: and you know it took the jury I think a
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: day or a day and a half, maybe two days
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: to come back with a verdict. That was probably about
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: a day and a half because I actually flew back
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: to Florida before we had our verdict and my co
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: counsul Talus out in Seattle. He stayed in Calitz County
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: until the verdict came in and the jury they came
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: out and they rendered a verdict in our favor, thankfully.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: But you know that was a nervous day and a half.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Can you tell us what the judgment was.
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was.
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: Two point five million total, was the verdict. And you know, frankly,
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: that doesn't sound like too much, right, Like, you know,
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: you think about verdicts in a place like La or Philadelphia,
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: New York, verdict can be huge, but we're talking about
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: Kallas County, Washington, and what we heard from locals who
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: work there was that that was the highest verdict in
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: a plaintiff's case at least as of you know, that
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: time a couple of years ago, and it changed, you know,
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: the lives of this family. Like I said, it's not
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: bringing back Patrick Coin, but more than anything, that's what
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: brings me joy in this work and getting through this
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: type of work is knowing that a family with a
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: major loss has at least something to help them move
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: forward and you know, gain some sense of direction again
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: in the wake of that loss.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: So yeah, especially because yeah, there's no quantifying that loss.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: It's so horrible. But I imagine the last thing that
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: then you want to do after experiencing such a life
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: shattering loss is to be struggling financially with three children
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: to try to make ends meet. So it's like a
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: very small consolation, but it feels like at least something
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: just happened that they were able to get this judgment.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: But it also sounds like it was important for them
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: on like just to have that out there in civil
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: court that they won and that this was wrong, and
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: to spread the word that this could be dangerous to
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: other people.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: I think that's right. You know, it is still life
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: changing money and it was here, But more importantly it
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: was about sending the message and spreading the word of yeah,
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: Kreaedom can kill, and you know, tragically it did in
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: this case.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: So after the you know, the verdict comes back and
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: you guys win the case, does the company Creedom Divine
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: are they still selling the same product? Is it still available?
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Were there any sort of changes made on their end
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: afterward that you're aware of?
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Creatom Divine still exists. There has been some changes
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: to the labeling that I've seen. There's been some changes
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: to the website. It's operated by different folks, But that's
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: probably about the extent of what I can say.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: So like, still we could walk into that same gas
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: station where Patrick bott His create them and someone could
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: still purchase Cretem there.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: Kreatum not Creative Divine.
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: I know that.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: Okay, the places where Patrick purchased his creatom no longer
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: sell Creative Divine, but they do sell Creatum Wow, or
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: at least they were as of the last time I checked,
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: which was a couple of years back.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I saw Creatum, a Kreatum quote supplement
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: for sale in a little mini mart type of place
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: that everyone's heard of, those massive chains selling it. Are
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: they ever sued for selling it?
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we've seen that. Another big case that's occurred was
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: involving a product called feel Free, and there was a
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: class action on that. Feel Free was actually continues to exist,
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: hugely popular on social media and sort of targeted a
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: very specific again sort of all natural health, holistic angle
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: to things. It's being sold in yoga spots and things
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: like that. It's sold in seven to eleven, you know,
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: like the stuff. It wasn't even obvious that Creatum was
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: in it, and that was a part of it. But
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: that's sort of the insidious nature of it, this sort
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: of healthful aura. It's like, there's nothing wrong with trying
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: to be healthy, right, and like we should all be
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: doing that, But like I think you end up with
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: a situation where there's some susceptibility to just thinking anything
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: that's a quote unquote natural organic herb or plant is
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: going to be healthful in some way. In the early going,
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: you can get creative on Amazon. You can get creative
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: them at Whole Foods at one point, and that did
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: change pretty quick, but it's now I would say, primarily
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: in convenience stores and smoke shops. But even that has
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: shifted a bit. Where there was a period of time
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: where some convenience store chains, ye know how they're attached
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: to gas stations. A lot of the time these gas
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: station franchises were like, you can't have this on the shelf.
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: That's kind of waxed and waned. And you know, by
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: and large, the industry is not ensured. Insurers don't want
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: to deal with this at all. It's too high risk.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: They had banking issues for years, you know, banks didn't
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: want to be involved in processing payments for it. Again,
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: sort of similar to cannabis in a way. So, yeah,
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: the industry's out there, but the ways that it was
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: accessible have shifted over time, but it's still there.
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: I read a report the CDC analyzed or report, I
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: think this was in twenty nineteen. The report spanned twenty
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: seven thousand unintentional drug overdoses. One hundred and fifty two
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: of those had creed them and they determined that creatum
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: was the cause of death for ninety one of those,
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: which this was only over a seventeen month span in
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: the US, and that feels like a lot of people.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd have to look at what you're referring to,
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: but that's been an interesting sort of area. So stepping
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: away from the case a little bit and going back
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: to like twenty sixteen, right, the FDA recommended to the
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: DEA schedule kreatum, meaning make kreatim schedule one like cocaine
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: or heroin, right, criminally illegal, and that caused a very
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: strong grassroots uproar to.
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: Prevent that from happening.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: And it also caused the American Creative Association, the probably
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: primary lobbying group on behalf of the creative industry, to
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: really come into a much more powerful position, and they
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: succeeded in stopping creatum being scheduled. And part of the
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: argument they were making, and I'm not saying the data
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: you're referring to as this data, I'm just not sure
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: there was some data about creatom caused deaths and the
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: data involved deaths that included things like suicide, like a
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: gunshot to the head. You know, that undermined some of
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: the power of that data, right That's something the industry
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: has harped on ever since vent you know, and that's
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: where some of this, like kreatum debts always involve fentanyl,
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: right Like, that's where some of that notions come from.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: And there's truth to that. There's a lot of fentanyl
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: debts that have cretum on board, and you know, that's
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: the reality. I think that cuts against the idea that
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: creatum is helping get people off of opiates when they're
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: using it with opiates. And I've seen debts where very
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: little fentanyl, very high cretum, and it gets tough to
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: say which cause the death, And you see medical examiners
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: listing both because even though it's fentanyl, people build tolerances. It,
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: like many substances, is a very wide range of you know,
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: what can kill you. You've also got on the market
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: holy synthetic seven hydroxymetrageny, meaning stuff that's just made in
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: a lab. And seven hydroxymetragenin is a full on opiate.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: You know, it's stronger than morphine and you can buy
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: that stuff just over the counter in a gas station
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: a lot of places, or smoke shop, and so you know,
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: we're seeing a lot of people getting injured or getting
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: hurt to date, and the FEDS are starting to notice
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: more and more because the data is building. Just recently,
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: you know, there was a study focused on deaths in
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: the state of Florida that showed, you know, unequivocally that
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: there have been numerous debts caused by creative over a
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: few year period. And that's just in one state. So
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: we know this stuff is an issue. Just because creatom
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: kills less than something like fentanyl doesn't mean it's not
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: a problem.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like creatom is this substance
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: that sort of sitting currently inside of a national debate
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: about like medical truth and how we define it and
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: who we trust. Because you know, you can see that
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of FDA warnings, there's you know, this
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: attempt by the DEA in twenty sixteen to classify as
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: a schedule on substance. But at the same time, there's
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: like this growing movement of distrust against government regulations when
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: it comes to like health, and some of that is understandable,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: especially when it comes to opioids, right, and pain medication,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: especially with what we saw with Purdue Pharma and with
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: this government backed medication that has just like wreaked havoc
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: in our country. And you know, so then you have
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: other people studying it, some researchers who strongly believe that
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: there could be a potential for kretom to be used
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: as a safer way for people to get off, you know,
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: addiction to heroin. Even if you say, yes, cretem is dangerous,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: but I don't think anyone would argue that it's more
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: dangerous than using heroin regularly. You know, the heroin deaths
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: are probably much larger. But it feels like it's very
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: hard as a person myself, someone who you know, works
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: in a podcast and does research as part of my
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: job to understand, let alone someone who's just like a
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: consumer going to a gas station to really get to
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: the bottom of what is going on with it and
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: who to believe, right, because you have the FDA and
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: the DEA. Are you a type of person who's going
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: to trust a government institution like that or you have
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: you know on the other side, sort of like the
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: supplement world who's saying no, it's really really safe. It
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: feels like Creatim is stuck in this place where it's
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: very hard for consumers to really get a good idea
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: of what it is and what is doing to their
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: bodies and like how safe it is.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: I think you're right, And it's a tough situation, right
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: because I think a lot of people have lust trust
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: and institutions broadly speaking, and you know, certainly with oxycotone,
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: Produe Pharma and everything around that, it's sort of a
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: perfect storm timing wise, with the rise of Kreatim and
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: all the controversy around Opius and the opioid epidemic, and
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: it has created a tough situation. You couple that with
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: our increasing ability to research things online and you know,
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: the social media that can surround a given product, the
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: funding that could go into marketing for a given product
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: on social media, the role of influencers. You know, Joe
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: Rogan was hawking Creatim at one point, so it's just
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: like it's got a wide reach and then you know,
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: it's tough to know what's reality and what's not sometimes,
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: and I think it's unfortunate, right because what it comes
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: down to to me is nuance and if there's anything
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: we've lost in public discourse. It seems to be nuance.
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: Multiple things can be true. Right, Creatom may have some promise. Right,
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: Creatom may end up being useful for opiate use disorder treatment.
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: We don't know that yet. There's not enough there to
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: say it is. It hasn't gone through the necessary pathways
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: and studies to say that that's the case. But I
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: think everyone agrees that it's a ten and it's worth
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: looking at because we know there's an opioid epidemic and
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: we know that, you know, any tool in the toolbox
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: to help with that is worth exploring, right, and that
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: is happening to some degree, and so that you know
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: you can have that be the case. But it can
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: also be the case that it's dangerous. And I think
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: it's particularly dangerous with how it's sold and how accessible
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: it is. Right, So the fact that I can walk
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: out of my office and walk down the street and
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: buy a ton of Creative like you can butte it,
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: buy as much as you want, Right, It's not like
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: a pharmaceutical where you're going to get you know, thirty
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: capsules and you know have medical oversight. You're just going
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: down the block and buying a bunch and taking it
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: and hoping for the best. It's not overseen and how
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: it's making it into the country, how it's being made,
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: how it's being processed, how it's being tested. The variability
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: of products on the market's really high. You know, even
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: within the same brand, from bag to bag, you're going
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: to get different percentages of matrogenying seven hydroxy. Then you
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: go between companies themselves, there's going to be differences. I
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: don't blame consumers for being lost and confused when it
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: comes to creatum, particularly when you're talking about something where
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: you go to a doctor and they don't even know.
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: What you're talking about.
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how old does someone have to be to purchase credom.
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: Changes place to place. Some states have passed laws on that,
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: some haven't. So some places is eighteen summer twenty one,
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: and some places arguably there is no age limit. Well,
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: a lot of manufacturers have taken it on themselves to
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: put eighteen plus on the packaging. But I've seen packaging
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: with no age limit, and there are states with no
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: regulation at all on the age limit. So depends on
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: where you're at. You know, creatum a lot more recently,
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: like over the past few months, they've been actively removing
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: seven oh and natural quote unquote creatum products from the
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: shelf based on the understanding and interpretation, which is correct
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: that the FDA has put forward that Creative's adulterated and
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: misbranded is not even supposed to be sold over the
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: counter full stop. So depending on where you are, there's
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: different actions being taken. That said, you know, I know
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: that there's, like anything else, if you really want it,
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: you can find a way to get a different.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Well, that was our conversation with Michael Cowgill. I'm so
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: glad that he spoke with us about this.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was impressive how much information he has retained
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: over like the very detailed specifics of kretom and how
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: it works in the body. It's something that like I
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: personally have seen out on shelves and you just think like, oh,
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: I happen to know that this is a controversial supplement,
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: But how many people are just reading a label and
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: being like, oh that sounds appealing.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sold in all these gas stations and I'm
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: so fascinated by it. And we've been wanting to talk
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: to someone about Credim for a while, wanting to do
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: an episode so I'm glad it worked out and that
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: Michael could come on the show and tell us about
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: this case too, which was so heartbreaking. Yeah, I mean cretim.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: I recalled it from Season one of Opportunists, which we
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: mentioned in the interview. But I've also seen cretem talked
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: about a lot on social media lately, people who claim
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: they're addicted to it and that leaning off of it
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: has been a very difficult process interesting, and that's at
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: least what I've been targeted with. I'm sure there are
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: other people out there saying that it's been very helpful
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: to them. Michael had so much knowledge about how people
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: perceive creatom that are not aware of the associated risk.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: It is such a controversial and hot topic issue. And
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: I kind of mentioned this in the interview, but I
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: first heard of it when I was making Season one
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: of the Opportunists, and the reason it came up was
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: that the person who was killed, who died in that season,
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: his name was even Mineo and he was on multiple
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: substances when he died, and one of them was Kretum,
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: and it became part of the trial over his death
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: and was talked about, and so of course I did
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: some research on it. When I was making that, and
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: if I'm recalling it, a lot of alcohol in the
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: system at the time, and obviously he was killed from
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: a gunshot wound, but there was some question about whether
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: or not he was sort of out of his mind
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: at the time and what his mental state was. I
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: think I included a very small bit of information about
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: creedom and about what sort of the current research says
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: about it. And I got so many people responding to
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: me upset that I would talk about it in any
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: way negative. And I realized, Oh, there's a whole subsect
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: of people who view creatom as this cure all type
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: of supplement and get really upset if anyone ever says
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: anything negative about it. To me, it's a red flag.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: That's some cult thinking right there.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like, wouldn't you want all the information
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: you know you're taking a supplement? And I think Michael
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: put it well, he said, yes, they are regulated. How
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: well those regulations are enforced or overseeing, I don't remember
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: his exact wording is questionable.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: And I don't necessarily think if you're taking magnesium or
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: something like. I think there's an acceptance that there's some
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: level of safety to a lot of supplements. Obviously it depends,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: but the thing with kretim is that it has like
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: Michael was saying, it's an opioid or an opiate, I
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: guess because it comes from a plant, but it's not
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: like some of these other supplements. But then that opens
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: the door to a bigger conversation of like, our bodies
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: are just basically stacks of chemicals and every time you
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: put something in it, it's going to interact with something else, right.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also supplements that have been on the market
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: a long time, right that are you know, you can
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: buy them at any grocery store because they are just trusted. Yeah,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: and creatom is not one of those supplements. It's widely accessible.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: But there is a conversation around cretom that doesn't exist
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: around magnesium or vitamin C. And there have been wrongful
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: deaths that have been attributed to cretum. Yeah, dozens and
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: dozens of them, oh for sure. And I think that's
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: where it feels like such a potentially dangerous thing to
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: just be out for sale because consumers, I think should
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: know what they're taking, right as much information is out there,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: and if they in my opinion, if they still want
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: to take it, fine, But if you are under the
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: impression that it's very similar to taking vitamin C or magnesium,
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: that's just so not true, right, or even similar in
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: the level of like trust you can have in the results. Yeah,
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: you know, I think that also it's seeking out how
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't say it's seeking these people out, but you know,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: who's looking for something to alleviate pain. Well, if you're
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: looking to alleviate pain, you might be more willing to
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: try something new, because chronic pain can rec havoc on
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: someone's life, and that's a vulnerable place to be coming from.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: For some people.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: It's a huge problem. It's like one of the number
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: one problems in the medical industry. It's you know, what
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: are you supposed to do if you have chronic pain?
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: Like there are not a lot of great answers that
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: we have. You know, I understand a person's hesitancy to
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: get on prescription opioids, like of course, like we've all
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: seen what that can do to someone now, how dangerous
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: those are and how addictive, like very addictive they are.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: And so I think there's a lot of people that
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: are in this position where they're in chronic pain. They
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: are really scared to take prescription opioids for good reason,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: and then they need to turn somewhere else. And you
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: know a lot of people are using medical cannabis. Yes,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: but maybe that's not your jam. Maybe you don't like
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: smoking weed for some reason, or maybe it doesn't work
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: well for you. I can see someone going down a
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: rabbit hole trying to find other options and landing on kretum.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: There's plenty of voices out there on the Internet who
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: are saying this works so well and it's so safe.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: And if it does end up offering pain relief, you
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: might be willing to look past some of the other
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: conversations around it, because if it's able to alleviate your pain,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: that probably changes your whole life.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So we talked about this a little bit in
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: the interview, but it's just like I wish that it
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: would just be studied more because it does seem like
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: there's something there to the plant. And I think that
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: I can see both sides of this sort of kretum argument,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: like people who are saying, no, it's killing people, it's
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: like a drug and it should be scheduled as a drug.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: But then I also understand the argument of people who
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: are using it who feel like they're out of options
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: and don't feel like they have anywhere else to turn.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: But because it's so hotly debated, it feels like there's
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: no room for someone to come in and just like
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: let's get the information on what this actually is and
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: what it can actually do, and like how we can
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: use it safely if need be.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because also you think about, like let's just say
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: that this should definitely be scheduled as a drug. If
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: someone even is thinking that way, well, how many people
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: now are going to have a harder time accessing this?
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: You know, there are real dangers associated with kretom And
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: for sure, it seems like manufacturers are held responsible when
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: these verdicts happen, but maybe it doesn't stop them from
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: selling to the masses.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be scared to take it. You die at
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: thirty nine years old. The sky died. Like that's horrible,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: and he clearly was just trying to do something he
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: thought was going to help him and his family.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's a good reminder of like like like
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: I'm not a scientist, you know, like even supplements putting
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: them on my body, that's affecting other things, like even
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: things like I was drinking this tea for a while
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: that I really liked. It was because I was like
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: not doing coffee and whatever. And so I found this tea.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: It's a mint licorice tea. To me, it's the best
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: tea I've ever had in my life.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: It sounds horrendous.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: I love licorice, Oh my bloh is like my favorite
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: thing I know. And so I find this tea and
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so good. I'm drinking
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: like three cups a day.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: You're like, why am I turning burgundy?
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: And then I read something about how licorice raises your
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: blood pressure, like naturally, Oh my god, I have to
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: wash my blood pressure anyway. So I'm like, oh my god,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: what the hell? So I have to stop drinking this tea.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: But you know, this is a te sold in stores,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: and it's you know, it's probably all over the front.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: I raise your blood pressure. No, but it's like, you know,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: there's just so much that could be going on this.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: He's not going to kill me, but it's also not
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: good for me to be drinking. And then you think
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: about like something like cretem that has When Michael was
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: listing all the different ingredients and all the different the
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: chemical makeup of this plan is so complex, How could
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: you know everything it's doing to your body?
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and because you can go pick it up at
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: a gas station, you don't have to tell your doctor
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: that you're also taking cretum.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: He did tell his doctor, but his doctor doesn't know
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: anything about it. Sounds like right in this case, Patrick
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: Coyne told his doctor, But in how many cases would
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: someone not even think to mention to their doctor, you know,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: like I don't necessarily think I would tell my doctor
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: if I were taking like melatonin for sleep, no, or
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: like drinking an energy drink, yeah, which is sort of
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: how this is sold at gas stations a little bit.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: Honestly, the packaging to me, when I see it, it
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: looks like, oh that does nothing. That must be like nothing.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, I'm glad that we could have an
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: episode about it and talk about it, because I do
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: think it's really important for people to know, especially if
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: they're thinking about taking kredem, to sort of look into
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: it and look at multiple different sources of people talking
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, thanks so much to Michael for his time
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: and we'll see you guys next week. If you have
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: a story for us, we would love to hear it.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: Our email is The Knife at exactly rightmedia dot com,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and me Paytia Eaton.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: the Airport.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Artwork fiv Vanessa Lilac.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.