Latest / Draw Me Anything with Jason Chatfield / Liza Donnelly on Breaking Barriers, Drawing Aliens, and Why Everything is Political (Including Pigs)

Transcript

Liza Donnelly on Breaking Barriers, Drawing Aliens, and Why Everything is Political (Including Pigs) · Draw Me Anything with Jason Chatfield

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we've just gone live and people are shuffling in.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, we're already at 30.
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  SPEAKER_01: That was quick.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, everybody.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, everybody.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: That was really quick.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: We have a lot of people joining us today.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think this is going to be a really popular one.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's exciting today.
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  SPEAKER_01: I get to have on the very first person I subscribe to on Substack,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is cartoonist and author,
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  SPEAKER_01: illustrator,
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  SPEAKER_01: reportage artist,
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  SPEAKER_01: director,
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  SPEAKER_01: producer.
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  SPEAKER_01: Liza Donnelly.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Liza, welcome.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
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  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Jason.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to be here.
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  SPEAKER_01: Of course, yeah.
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  I think I was watching...
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  I think you're the first person I subscribed to.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're also the first person I saw do live video on Substack.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: You were live drawing all the time.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was doing live before Substack, as you know.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was experimenting.
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  SPEAKER_00: There was something called HAPS, which is a short-lived...
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  SPEAKER_00: app that was all for live reporting.
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  SPEAKER_00: This was maybe five years ago.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I was also doing live Instagram during the pandemic.
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  SPEAKER_00: I live drew every single day at five o'clock.
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  I would just take like 15 minutes on Instagram Live and talk
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  about what was going
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  SPEAKER_00: on in the world and draw stuff,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know?
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  SPEAKER_00: Not a cartoon per se, but what was going on.
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  SPEAKER_00: And people saw it as a
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  community they really enjoyed because everybody wanted to be
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  connected we were so
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  so in our own spaces so it was it was nice that was that that
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  was great and i ended
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  that only because you know the pandemic seemed to have a an
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  organizing principle
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  for that activity and then when the pandemic was gone actually
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  i did some political
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  drawings to a george floyd happened then in the election and
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  that in that time
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  SPEAKER_00: period uh but once
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  SPEAKER_00: those things are over.
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  SPEAKER_00: I stopped doing the Instagram live every day.
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  SPEAKER_00: But now we've moved on to other things like the live on Substack.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you seem to do it every day.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you post every day, I think.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do.
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  And your live drawing,
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  what I always liked about it was that you did them by hand.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: You did them with a dip pen and ink.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: You were using tools that I use that I sort of, I'm not as good at.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I used to work a lot digitally,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: doing my comic strip because it was production-wise,
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  SPEAKER_01: it was just more efficient,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it wasn't as enjoyable.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's nice, there's sort of a joy in the tactile analog.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's great.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I like them both.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I draw, I live draw out in the world too.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you've seen that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I have a feature on my Substack called,
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  SPEAKER_00: I saw this person today and I would use my iPad.
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  I'd be on the subway or the train or walking around and I draw
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  just a random person.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
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  SPEAKER_00: And also do a video grab of it, too, which I think people enjoy.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know people love watching other people draw.
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  SPEAKER_00: And seeing it evolve, too, out of a video, out of a digital.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was talking to some other cartoonists at the Rubin Awards.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was a podcast called Comic Lab with Brad Geiger and...
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  Dave's Kellett and they were talking about the fact that we
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  often forget how we
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  forget that other people can't do can't draw like I guess
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  they're not as practiced
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  I guess so to them us drawing looks like a magic trick and I
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  always took it for
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  SPEAKER_01: granted you know that we can draw
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  SPEAKER_01: I guess I just forgot the novelty,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: I say novelty of it,
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  but the how entertaining it can be for someone to watch
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  something just appear out
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  SPEAKER_01: of nothing.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's why,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I started doing these as instead of an ask me anything,
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  SPEAKER_01: draw me anything.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's purely just to kind of see,
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  SPEAKER_01: it was Substack that suggested it though,
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  SPEAKER_01: like try some live video and see,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: what you do that other people can't do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And people were suggesting in the chat,
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  SPEAKER_01: like making requests and about halfway through each one of these,
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  SPEAKER_01: I sort of flip the camera and start drawing while we're talking.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome to do that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to join.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're more than well-versed at that.
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  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
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  there is something about the live spontaneity of it or just
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  creating something out
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  SPEAKER_01: of nothing.
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  SPEAKER_01: Was it Paper 53?
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  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you were using on your iPad?
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  SPEAKER_00: It is, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: again,
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  SPEAKER_01: you were one of the first people doing...
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  SPEAKER_01: I remember you were early on using that.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was like that chunky pen, that stylus.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they don't make that stylus anymore.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Apple.
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  an apple pencil they don't yeah i i had to buy i wanted i
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  wanted them back uh those
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  thick they look like uh architect's pencils um right those are
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  great and i started
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  doing that uh back probably 2015 um somebody gave me an ipad
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  and actually the ted
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  people gave me an ipad because i did a ted talk and then we did
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  an animation video
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  SPEAKER_00: uh uh uh
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  SPEAKER_00: We did an animation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can put a link in your piece.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I did an animation with Ted.
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  I didn't do the animation,
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  but I wrote the script and an animator worked with me.
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  SPEAKER_00: We did a whole little short film about...
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: uh, what, I forget what it's called.
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  SPEAKER_01: Uh, cartoonist sprain or something.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Something like that.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it's about what, how we, how we do what we do.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, um, anyway, they, as a thank you, they didn't pay me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Of course, Ted doesn't pay anybody, but they, they gave me an iPad.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: Very gratefully,
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  SPEAKER_00: I started drawing the State of the Union address that year,
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  SPEAKER_00: which I always like,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it can be very boring.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is the early days of Twitter,
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  SPEAKER_00: not the real early days,
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  SPEAKER_00: but Twitter was still a great place.
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  And I drew these quick drawings of what I was watching and put
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  it on Twitter
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  SPEAKER_00: immediately because the app connects to Twitter.
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  SPEAKER_00: And nothing was like that yet on that page.
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  SPEAKER_00: platform at all, really.
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  SPEAKER_00: There were images, but not anything like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it took off and that's when my live drawing career sort of happened.
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  SPEAKER_01: And now,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  I've seen you've drawn everything live from the red carpet at
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  the Oscars to the
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  SPEAKER_01: Trump trials to the E.G.
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  SPEAKER_01: and Carroll Trump trial.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's fun to follow along because there is something,
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  SPEAKER_01: I know you couldn't bring in technology or you couldn't bring in anything
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  SPEAKER_01: digital to the courtroom.
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  SPEAKER_01: So someone sort of tipped you off and said, bring paper and pen.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is that?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the first trial, the E.G.
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  and Carroll trial,
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  rape trial,
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  I forget what year that was,
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  Jason,
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  but...
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  Two years ago?
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  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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  I thought,
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  God,
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  I'm going to go down to the courthouse,
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  see if I can get in.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I went down, and somebody warned me.
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  SPEAKER_00: They said, you better bring paper.
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  SPEAKER_00: They may not let you bring in your iPad.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I did.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure enough,
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  SPEAKER_00: you had to surrender your iPad and your phone,
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  SPEAKER_00: which was very bizarre for the whole day.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I drew on paper.
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  SPEAKER_00: I drew the E. Jean Carroll trial.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not just—Trump was not there for that one.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not just the people on the stand or E. Jean.
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  SPEAKER_00: I drew over a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: I drew the people watching.
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  SPEAKER_00: I drew the journalists.
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  SPEAKER_00: I drew the jury.
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  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't see them that well.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just to get a feeling of what it was like to be there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's what people...
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  say they appreciate about what we do as live drawers is they
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  feel like they're
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  there with you they're experiencing what you're experiencing i
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  get that from people
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  on the red carpet i was the first cartoonist to be credentials
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  for that yeah that's
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  a pretty big deal um yeah and it was i did it for about seven
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  eight years and that
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  was that was great so it's it's a different way and i know you
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  and i talked about
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  this it's a different way of reporting and um it's a quieter
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  way of reporting and
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  And I found that it's been hard to get the mainstream media to
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  understand what we
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  SPEAKER_00: do because all those people are word people.
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  They may say,
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  oh,
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  that's really interesting,
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  but then they don't make the connection.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're the first people to say a picture's worth a thousand words,
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  SPEAKER_01: but then when it comes to getting them to pay for the reportage,
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  SPEAKER_01: they're like,
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  SPEAKER_01: wait,
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  SPEAKER_01: what?
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  SPEAKER_01: You want money?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: You want us to pay you for that?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: It looks like too much fun.
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  SPEAKER_01: The thing is,
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  SPEAKER_01: the thing about Reportize that I like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I really try,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's hard to do well,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's really,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: anyone can sort of sit and draw,
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  anyone who can draw can kind of sit and draw something they're
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  looking at,
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  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
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  SPEAKER_01: in the way that you sketch daily life.
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  But when it comes to Reportize,
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  like you said,
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  you're taking in everything.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're using a filter and you're doing, it's what you leave out, really.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's you're filtering in the experience, you're helping people
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  SPEAKER_01: feel like what it is in that moment.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's very spontaneous.
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  SPEAKER_01: And like you say,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's the other people in the room,
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  SPEAKER_01: the jurors,
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  SPEAKER_01: the journalists,
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  SPEAKER_01: the lawyers,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's the sense of that there's as if you're just looking around,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know?
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  SPEAKER_01: And to me, I remember Mort Gerberg's book, Mort Gerberg on the Scene,
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  he was going,
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  he was doing like sports events and,
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  you know,
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  and I think similar things to you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Did you love draw the DNC?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that was the first thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: That was the first thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I,
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been drawing from my home and then I,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: the election in 2016 was coming up and I,
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  SPEAKER_00: I had met Nora O'Donnell's.
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  SPEAKER_00: I had been on a panel with Nora O'Donnell.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, I'm going to see if CBS would be interested.
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  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it just takes, uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know, going out of your comfort zone and asking, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: So I asked her assistant and she said, let me see.
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  SPEAKER_00: And she talked to their social media, CBS this morning, social media guy.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, oh yeah, this is great.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's do this.
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  SPEAKER_00: So they, they sent me to the DNC.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I ended up working for CBS,
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  SPEAKER_00: the morning show for about four years,
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  SPEAKER_00: live drawing,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: in the studio,
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  SPEAKER_00: I would draw the guests and draw the hosts.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, and they would, the point of it was at the time was to connect, uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: because they put my stuff on social media.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was on camera sometimes, but they put my stuff on social media.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it was a point,
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  it was a way to connect their social media accounts with the
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  actual broadcast,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is,
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  SPEAKER_00: that was their idea.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was really fun.
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  SPEAKER_00: They sent me to the White House.
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  SPEAKER_00: I went, I don't know what else I did, the DNC.
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  SPEAKER_00: We did the debates.
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  SPEAKER_00: I didn't get to go to any debates, but I did it for the TV.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it was a great,
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  SPEAKER_00: Great run.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  And then CBS imploded,
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  you know,
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  Les Moonves and Charlie Rose and all that sort of CBS imploded.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was no longer.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: What was the morning program?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I remember seeing you on a morning program one day.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was watching the TV and I was like, wait, what was that morning?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a breakfast TV thing?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's still there.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's now called CBS Mornings and it was called CBS...
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  SPEAKER_00: This morning,
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  SPEAKER_00: every weekday,
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  SPEAKER_00: Nora O'Donnell was the host,
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  SPEAKER_00: Charlie Rose was the host,
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  SPEAKER_00: and who was the third person?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Gayle King, she's still there.
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  SPEAKER_03: Gayle King, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And their green room was adjacent to the set,
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  so I would be in the green room drawing the celebrities as they
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  arrived and the
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  SPEAKER_00: guests,
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  SPEAKER_00: not all celebrities,
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  SPEAKER_00: as they arrived.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I would draw them on the set as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: It didn't go in every day.
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  SPEAKER_00: They called me in when somebody big was coming, like Oprah.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_00: A lot of great actors that I got to meet that I was excited about.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it was a fun time.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
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  SPEAKER_01: I always wondered sort of,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I know you've done a lot of TED Talks,
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  SPEAKER_01: you've done a lot of live presentations.
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  I always had this idea in my head when I was sort of watching
• 11:41
  before I lived in New York.
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  watching from afar and just seeing all these people on the
• 11:45
  ground in New York.
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  SPEAKER_01: They were soaking it up,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and after the New Yorker meeting,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: going to Burgola Desert Peace and hanging out and talking shop.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it felt like such a nice idea to be around other artists,
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  SPEAKER_01: to be bumping up against each other in New York.
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  And I feel like there is still something to being in a place
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  and sort of soaking up.
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  Like you've been in New York for a long time and it feels like
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  you were able to
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  SPEAKER_01: sort of soak up all the little bits and pieces of,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  of the neighborhoods and of the people and the tone and how
• 12:17
  much it's changed.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: You have that context,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and it's...
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's still...
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think reportage and live sketching and all that.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's a dead art.
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  SPEAKER_01: I just think...
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of value to it.
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  And I like the idea that maybe there'll be a resurgence of it
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  since it's been out
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  SPEAKER_01: of the spotlight for so long.
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  SPEAKER_01: Linda Healy said, it's subtle.
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  SPEAKER_01: I bet often people aren't experienced with this.
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  SPEAKER_01: It takes patience.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's true, it does take patience.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: There was one,
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: TRG said,
• 12:44
  I remember when there was a time when some presidents would
• 12:47
  invite political
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: cartoonists to the White House after an election.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is this, is this something, did you ever do that?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ever do?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, no.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know you do political cartoons.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be, I grew up in Washington, D.C.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: during Watergate.
• 13:05
  So,
• 13:07
  and I was already drawing as a kid,
• 13:08
  but I wanted to be a political cartoonist.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be her block.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Who actually got to meet him.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you that story.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: and so I,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: but at the time,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: this is in the 70s,
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: early 70s,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I thought,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I looked at the political cartoonists that I admired,
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Gary Trudeau and her block.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the two I remember most.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I just didn't feel like I could fit in.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think that I had a strong enough opinion about things,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: which was not true,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: but I couldn't,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't find my opinions, I guess.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was afraid to share them, let's put it that way.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then I looked at The New Yorker,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: and The New Yorker has always had political cartoons of their own type.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked more closely and I thought, oh, okay.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: maybe...
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I already was aware of The New Yorker,
• 14:01
  but it became clear that it was not the stodgy magazine that I
• 14:05
  thought it was when
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was in high school.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, oh, this is a status quo kind of stodgy.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it had a lot of subversive...
• 14:13
  cartoons in there subtle but subversive and um anyway i set my
• 14:17
  sights on the new
• 14:18
  yorker because i thought it was appealed to me more as a method
• 14:22
  of expression well
• 14:25
  you were one of the first women cartoonists at the new yorker i
• 14:27
  remember um reading
• 14:29
  about you and roz having to break into that sort of old boys
• 14:32
  club and and and what
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: it was like you were it was in the 70s you first got published
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: We were not the first,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: but we were...
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't say first,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: but there was a sort of new...
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a common mistake.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: We were the first to come back.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: So there were women drawing in the 20s.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: I know you know that.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: There were women drawing in the 20s for the magazine,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: and I wasn't aware of that yet,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: although I think I'd heard of Helen Okenson.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to be a cartoonist.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I wanted to do.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I know other people feel the same way.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's like blinders.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do this.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm going to do.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And in the late 70s, we were...
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just start submitting, trying to tell the story succinctly if I can.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 15:23
  I had watched The New Yorker and looked at The New Yorker when
• 15:26
  I was in college in
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: the late 70s,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: and I saw one cartoonist that I thought,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I looked at her work,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know she was a she,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: and I thought,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: if this can be in the magazine...
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I can be in the magazine because her work was captionless,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: which I was doing a lot of captionless back then.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I love captionless and very simple lines.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And her name was Nurik Carlin.
• 15:51
  And she was a Israeli citizen who had moved to New York to
• 15:56
  study animation and
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: found out about the New Yorker and started submitting.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And she sold in 1971.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: to Lee Lorenz, who had just become cartoon editor.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And anyway, so I saw her work, and I thought, it really emboldened me.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: We became friends eventually.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then, but I...
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Between Nurit and me was Roz.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Roz sold in 77.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I sold in 79.
• 16:23
  And there was another woman named Roz Zanengo who was in there
• 16:27
  briefly in the late
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: 70s,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: and she disappeared.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what happened to her.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there were four of us.
• 16:32
  But,
• 16:33
  Jason,
• 16:33
  before that,
• 16:34
  there were no women drawing cartoons in the magazine.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: for a lot of different reasons.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: The New Yorker was not saying no women.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: They never said that.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was a cultural thing, that women were not supposed to be funny.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we came back.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think Mary Petty worked until the 60s or late 50s.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: She's still doing covers.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: But basically,
• 17:01
  there were no women drawing cartoons in the New Yorker in the
• 17:03
  middle of the
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: century.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And now there's the cover editor and the cartoon editor about women.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of women contributing.
• 17:11
  Which brings me to something I really wanted to talk to you
• 17:13
  about because I know
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: you're working on a documentary.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Women Laughing.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the title?
• 17:20
  Yeah.
• 17:21
  And it's about that sort of arc of cartooning in The New Yorker
• 17:29
  going from this
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: very,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say homogenous,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: but very like...
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:33
  same kinds of similar perspectives and then sort of the
• 17:37
  evolution as it is to what
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: it is today.
• 17:39
  Can you speak a little bit about it and how much can you talk
• 17:42
  about the documentary?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: A lot, because it's finished.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's finished.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: You're in editing, right?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it's finished.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: We have a color correction and sound correction to go, but it's finished.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I have so much time on my hands, I don't know what to do.
• 18:00
  No,
• 18:01
  it's based on my book,
• 18:02
  roughly based on my book,
• 18:04
  Very Funny Ladies,
• 18:05
  which...
• 18:05
  Yeah.
• 18:07
  The first edition I wrote in 2005 about the women cartoonists
• 18:10
  of the magazine from
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: 1925 to,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: at the time,
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: 2005.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then in 2017,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Maslin,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: my husband,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: a near-heart cartoonist,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: for those of you who don't know,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: he—hi,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Michael,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know he's here—he noticed,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: the historian that he is,
• 18:32
  he noticed that there was an issue in 2017 where there were
• 18:36
  more women cartoonists
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: than men in that issue.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the first time that had ever happened.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I said to myself, we have to do something about this.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: We have to celebrate this.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I also thought I should do a new edition of the book.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I wrote my editor, and he said, absolutely.
• 18:55
  So we did another edition,
• 18:58
  which came out in 2022,
• 18:59
  called Very Funny Ladies.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it has another chapter about the recent women that came in from 2005.
• 19:07
  to uh 2022 and um and then david remnick and emma allen wrote
• 19:12
  the forward which was
• 19:13
  fantastic that's great new material new new cartoons new and
• 19:17
  that's still available
• 19:18
  on on amazon but um so that book uh i thought okay i'm done
• 19:22
  with i'm done with that
• 19:23
  topic i don't need to write about women cartoonists of the new
• 19:25
  york anymore because
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: we've we've broken that little mini glass ceiling but um
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I decided it had to be a documentary.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted more people to know about these women.
• 19:34
  So I spent a lot of the pandemic taking classes online at
• 19:39
  Sundance about making documentaries.
• 19:43
  And I talked to anybody who would talk to me,
• 19:45
  any documentarian who would give me their time.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it turns out they're very generous people.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the ones I've met, they're
• 19:55
  I think they're my,
• 19:56
  you know,
• 19:56
  cartoonists are my people,
• 19:57
  but documentarians are my people too.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, because they're not in it for the money.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to love it to do it.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they're committed.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, they want to be helpful.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how that happened.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it took since...
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: pre-pandemic to now to get it finished.
• 20:13
  And it does go into history,
• 20:17
  but it's also very much a celebration of some contemporary
• 20:22
  women.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what's fun about this,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Jason,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: we're talking about live drawing,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: is that I decided that I really wanted to not just sit across the table
• 20:32
  And interview somebody Although I do that in a way I wanted to
• 20:37
  draw with these
• 20:38
  women So we sat at a table In the Society of Illustrators God
• 20:43
  bless them They gave
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: us space for free To do this,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: to film it And um
• 20:49
  We talked and drew at the same time because it's something that
• 20:53
  I've done with my children.
• 20:55
  And I know it's a way people are relaxed,
• 20:57
  at least cartoonists are relaxed when they're drawing.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's why I do this.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I do this show.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's cartoonists drawing and talking together.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a short.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's 35 minutes long.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: I decided to make it a short.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Which I wish, you know, in retrospect, I wish...
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: it is a long cause it could have been more,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: there's not much money out there for documentaries.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So barely scraped by in getting the funds we needed.
• 21:27
  And then the other great news is,
• 21:28
  um,
• 21:29
  a couple pieces of information from your audience.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to premiere in New York in fall,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: and the New Yorker is going to publish it in the magazine.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's really great.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And Katie Kirk is an executive producer.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: My old pal Katie Kirk.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Your old pal?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
• 21:50
  She commissioned me to draw Larry David for Sardi's Restaurant
• 21:53
  a few years,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: a number of years ago.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And she is a cartoon fan.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: I know you probably already know this,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: but she's a big fan of political cartoons and New Yorker cartoons.
• 22:02
  And we had to,
• 22:03
  Larry David was doing a show at a Broadway called A Fish in the
• 22:07
  Dark.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And she wanted to interview him at Sardi's.
• 22:10
  And you know how all the caricatures on the walls at Sardi's
• 22:12
  don't really look like?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: She wanted like a bad caricature of Larry to present to him.
• 22:19
  So we did like three different versions and she picked the
• 22:22
  worst one and gave it to him.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Katie, how much do I have to pay you not to put this up?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Which is like being blessed by the Pope, being insulted by Larry David.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a very good, that's a very Larry David thing to say.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: But Katie's great.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: She's a great champion.
• 22:39
  Her and then Jake Tapper and other journalists and people like
• 22:44
  that who are big
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: sort of staunch advocates for cartoonists.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really cool.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: So she's... Did you say she's an executive producer or a director?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, executive producer.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a director and I'm working with another...
• 22:58
  filmmaker Kathleen Hughes who is directing with me she's really
• 23:04
  experienced she's
• 23:05
  worked with Bill Moyers for 30 years and unfortunately just
• 23:09
  died but so I knew I
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: needed I needed
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: somebody who knew what they were doing.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a great team.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Judith Mizraki is my producer, although I'm producing with her.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: She did a film called The Martha Mitchell Effect,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: which is a great film about the Watergate era and the booksellers.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we just have a great award-winning team.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel really lucky.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's fantastic.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to see.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: So Disc Full is coming out.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 23:41
  DMS on the chat said festivals are more likely to accept
• 23:45
  shorter works than longer
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: ones because they're easier to fit into a schedule.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: So short can actually be really swell.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: except I've learned,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Jason,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know who just wrote you that and they're right,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: but a long short is hard to program.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we...
• 24:03
  I think we got turned down by a few festivals because we were a
• 24:05
  long short.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because usually they pitch sorts altogether.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're 35 minutes short, they don't know how to... Oh, yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:15
  Jennifer George was just asking if down the line it's going to
• 24:18
  be streaming at any point.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, on The New Yorker.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So just on The New Yorker's website?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they have a section for films.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen a couple of shorts, yeah.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's one by Jennifer's son actually on there, which is really great.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's Jennifer George, Rube Goldberg's granddaughter.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Her son, Max, is a writer, comedy writer and filmmaker.
• 24:43
  And he did a documentary film that's on the New Yorkers video
• 24:46
  section with it.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it was about getting funding for a documentary film.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: for a short film and trying to get it into,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Tribeca and Sundance and all these sort of,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: things and trying to convince,
• 25:01
  I think it's their uncle or something or their dad to like
• 25:05
  throw money into this
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: thing.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, oh, okay, so what's the return on the investment?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, well, you know, it's not...
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Zero.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Return.
• 25:15
  It's more about getting into the festival,
• 25:16
  so maybe we get it made into a feature.
• 25:19
  And it's so funny because it's exactly,
• 25:21
  exactly...
• 25:22
  I feel like you would appreciate it.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's down to the... I'm going to go look for it, yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know it.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's really funny.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I did two Kickstarters, which...
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody was so generous, but I hate doing that.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Kickstaff's the worst.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we got to do it.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of those necessary evils.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: But people are generous.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's wonderful.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's heartwarming.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: As much as I hate asking for money, it's lovely.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Substack.
• 25:49
  People are coming out of the woodwork to support us for no
• 25:52
  reason except they want
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: to support us.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that gives you faith in humanity.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not kidding.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: At a time like this, it definitely helps.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: about this time every show,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of flip the camera and keep doing what you do well,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: which is talking while drawing.
• 26:08
  I usually take requests from the chat,
• 26:12
  but I also just kind of draw what I'm,
• 26:14
  you know.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: coming up with.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have tried to steer away in these from...
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: I like the idea that this is escapism from the misery of the news.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I try to avoid Trump and I try to avoid, you know, horrible stuff.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's unavoidable because it just comes up.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about you, but I try to think clearer while I'm drawing.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like I'm just more focused, I guess.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: What device do you have?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've been playing with so many different devices in this.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I have three or four that kind of work and it's always awkward.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's part of the fun of it.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so this is what I've got, Liza.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: The arm that I'm using, it clips the phone into here, right?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the front-facing camera.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then this is my drawing board.
• 27:13
  And what I can do is flip the camera so that it sees,
• 27:17
  so it's using the back camera.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then it sort of,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: you can move this arm around almost like,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: like a lamp,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: like a drawing lamp.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of just have it over the top of the...
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: I can send you a link if you like.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I need that.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Clamps onto your drawing board like that, yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've only just been using it recently,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: and I find it very – it's called Canvas,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: by the way.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sponsored by them or anything.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: I've tried every – I'm sure you have too.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've tried every other version of this,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: and it's so hard to find something that just sticks or just works in a –
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Mine is on a weird stand, and I'm just going to turn.
• 28:03
  I'm going to change my drawing board angle a little bit here
• 28:06
  too,
• 28:06
  just to make it flat.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think today,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: just because you often use ink,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: pen and ink,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: and I like that you,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: as I was saying earlier,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: you use traditional tools.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have pencil.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to use these Blackwing pencils.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And is that a mechanical pencil that you got there?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: I love this thing.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's very thick.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just like holding it.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe I'll use some pen and ink.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: What's the brand on that one?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'll let you know.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't say on there, strangely.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: But like you, I like these depends.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: The Crokewell, I think it's a 102.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then the Hunt 101 Imperial, which is a bit chaotic at times.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Richard Thompson used to use it.
• 29:15
  And I remember hearing him talk about how crazy it was and
• 29:20
  seeding so much to chaos
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: when you use it.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I just like the variation of line you can get.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 29:29
  And I wrap my mechanical pencil up to stop my hands from
• 29:34
  seizing up from long drawing sessions.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: I wrap these in, I want to say it's like athletic tape.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: To kind of stop my hand from getting RSI.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got something more to grip onto.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's why that thick one you've got there is probably...
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is a Hunt 107, and I also use... 107, okay.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I also sometimes use... Let's see.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: One of these, I don't know what it is.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: That looks like the nib is broken.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: We just got a request in the chat for a drawing.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's a suggestion.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: A three-eyed alien asking a pig for the time.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, that's as apolitical as it gets.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it really?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is it apolitical?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Three-eyed alien asking a pig for the time.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: When you started working at the New Yorker, I'm curious about this.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was...
• 30:45
  Still the sort of showing roughs,
• 30:47
  and then if the rough gets approved,
• 30:49
  you go to finish.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Was that always the process?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you would do pencils, like rough pencils?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think my roughs, when I first started, they were pen.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was trying to show, let's see, show them what my style was.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Can everybody see my paper?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a three-eyed...
• 31:19
  And you'd submit...
• 31:24
  My alien goes back to my memories of childhood of Outer Limits
• 31:31
  aliens.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 31:36
  It is interesting that everyone's visual vocabulary is
• 31:41
  different for references.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you were submitting pen roughs, or I guess ink roughs.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: To sort of show Lee your style.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Lee was your first editor?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Lee, yeah.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: What was the alien asking?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: He was asking a pig for the time.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: A pig.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: I like drawing pigs.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Something about, they just comically, they just look so silly.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we would go back in the day.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was living in New York.
• 32:24
  I had a job at the Natural History Museum,
• 32:26
  which was a great place to start.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And drop our stuff off on Wednesdays.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then...
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was Wednesdays back then, of course.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there were two days back then.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: There was Tuesday for the seasoned cartoonists and the older people.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then...
• 32:55
  Wednesdays was for the young upstarts like me and Roz and Jack
• 32:59
  Siegler and Mick
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Stevens and Bob Mankoff and Sam Gross.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: We would go out to lunch afterwards on Wednesdays.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was fun.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: We had a lot of fun.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Where were you doing the lunch?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Was it still Pogola?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if Pergola existed.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Probably did.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, we went to a couple different places.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: A place called The Quiet Man,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: an Irish bar,
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: and a place called The Century,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: which was more modern.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: We would try to mix it up, go to different places.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we went to a Mets game once or twice.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty cool.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: We went on the circle line once.
• 33:42
  And then after lunch,
• 33:44
  we would sometimes go down to Tin Pan Alley and shoot pool.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Bill Woodman was another person that was a regular.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Bill Woodman, wonderful artist.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so...
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then I forgot to mention also we would,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: before we went to lunch,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: we would go to the other magazines,
• 34:03
  take your little envelopes of your rejects from the New Yorker
• 34:06
  and you'd go to
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: other places.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you, where else did you submit back then?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: National Lampoon.
• 34:12
  Actually,
• 34:12
  National Lampoon was where I sold my first cartoon before the
• 34:16
  New Yorker.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember what cartoon it was?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone remembers that first.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 34:25
  Don't you find it odd that people say,
• 34:27
  do you remember the first cartoon you sold to the nation?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hello.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't remember.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: There were places like Good Housekeeping, Audubon, Cosmo, Cosmopolitan.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: which I sold to a fair amount.
• 34:47
  And there were places you could sell your cartoons,
• 34:50
  and they paid pretty well.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess now it's pretty much a one-shop deal.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, there's your pig and your alien.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: I actually went to,
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: when I was in San Diego for Comic Con,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: I noticed that the Lampoon,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Marty Dundix,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: who runs the Weekly Humorist,
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: he has opened a series of comedy clubs,
• 35:24
  stand-up comedy clubs called the Lampoon Yellow Clubs and
• 35:28
  National Lampoon Comedy
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Clubs.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he's opening one in LA and one in New York as well.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the new brand for them is stand-up comedy.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just realized the pig could be very political.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: It could be an Orwellian pig.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Everything can be political.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Everything can be political if you think about it.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Are you finding that,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: and I hasten to add that I try not to go into politics,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: but you have a very unique perspective on this,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: in that you have used Substack,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think in particular,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: really well to galvanize a lot of people in sort of
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: be able to distill some pretty complex ideas,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: some pretty,
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:26
  strong feelings and ideas into cartoons and make them more
• 36:29
  palatable or at least
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: more shareable.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think... It's difficult.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is difficult.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't always... I'm glad I don't have a...
• 36:41
  I always admired the political cartoonists who had a regular
• 36:45
  gig at a newspaper
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: because they'd have to come up with something five days a week,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: and that's got to be tough.
• 36:53
  And I'm heavily influenced by international cartoonists because
• 36:55
  I've been involved
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: with that world since 2005,
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: cartooning for peace.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that kind of cartoon, which is often wordless and visual.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I often shoot for that and try for that.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then also I love the way the New Yorker cartoons,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: our style,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: that format,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: I should say that style,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: that format is good for political ideas too,
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: because they can be indirect,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: not hitting you over the head with a
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: political concept or an opinion.
• 37:33
  They're just like musing about what's going on in our world and
• 37:37
  how it affects people.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:43
  I always loved Son Pei and a lot of these artists who were able
• 37:49
  to do these
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: captionless images that were just so powerful.
• 37:53
  And it feels like that is so good because it's… It's the reason
• 37:58
  I love people like
• 37:59
  Sergio Aragones and these other cartoonists who can do stuff
• 38:02
  that translate.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you don't need to read.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to be literate.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to even understand English to understand the cartoons.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And cartooning's a piece.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of cartooners who have that skill set.
• 38:14
  And did you do,
• 38:15
  I feel like I saw you on the event I did in France,
• 38:20
  Redep.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Did you do that?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I did.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you did that recently?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: What year were you there?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, God, I don't remember.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: 2012 or 13 or something like that?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: 14?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think I did it in 12?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: 11 or 12.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: 11 or 12 I did it.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the cartoonists,
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you have this same feeling,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: but the cartoonists I was there with,
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: they're all political cartoonists.
• 38:42
  They got one cartoonist from,
• 38:44
  you know,
• 38:44
  not every country,
• 38:45
  but a lot of different countries.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:48
  And there were cartoonists there from,
• 38:50
  like Nadia Hyari was there from Tunisia.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: They had Langmu from China.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: They had cartoonists who had been like exiled from Sudan to like Qatar.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know when you're exiled to Qatar, you're in trouble.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I kept thinking, I was talking to the American and British people,
• 39:10
  cartoonist Nicola Jennings was the British cartoonist she works
• 39:12
  for The Guardian
• 39:13
  and I was saying you know I feel like we're so lucky you know
• 39:18
  we're caught jesters
• 39:19
  it feels like whereas these people feel like freedom fighters
• 39:24
  it's not to say that
• 39:25
  it's not changing now but it just it felt like wow we're so
• 39:28
  lucky that we get to do
• 39:30
  these cartoons with relative impunity without having to worry
• 39:34
  about having to go
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: into hiding or be exiled you know I know yeah we are lucky
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hope that continues.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it does feel like there's a chilling effect.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Your Substack,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: just getting back to what we were speaking about earlier,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: the reason I am even all in on Substack,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: and I am,
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: I know you are too,
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: is that
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: One, I think it was one afternoon in 2022, maybe 23, 22.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: We were at Book Club Bar in the Lower East Side.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, East Village, where I used to live.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: And on, I think it was like 3rd and C. And it was a Substack event.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you are,
• 40:29
  I don't know if you're hosting it or you were featured there or
• 40:33
  something like
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: You and N-Cadet.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: And some other cartoonists and writers and journalists.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was so sheepish about just getting to what you were talking about.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sheepish about turning on the paid thing and asking people for money.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: I always had such a big hang-up about it.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it was you and Anne and several other cartoonists who were there.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: I should say sub-stackers.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: People were doing different kinds of things.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:02
  comics and illustration and writing and video and audio that
• 41:07
  convinced me to really
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: take it seriously.
• 41:10
  And I turned on paid then and there while I was listening to
• 41:14
  you guys talk.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: And someone there was my first paid subscriber.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt immediately the guilt kick in as, oh, wow.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: People are paying now.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: I have to really take this seriously.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: I have to deliver something now, you know.
• 41:28
  But that was a big turning point for me because I guess I
• 41:32
  didn't quite know what I
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: was doing and I was afraid to figure it out as I went.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to feel like I knew what I was doing.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, we never really know.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: We just do it and hope for the best, right?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've learned over the years writing on the internet...
• 41:51
  to be to be to to experiment and and and uh i the first time i
• 41:58
  started writing on
• 41:58
  the internet was for forbes women they they they said they they
• 42:01
  saw my ted talk and
• 42:02
  they said they invited me to to be a writer for them and and
• 42:07
  they said do whatever
• 42:07
  you want i was like really wow so i did a lot of uh at the time
• 42:13
  it was was probably
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: 2007 or so a lot of right no was it later than that
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit later than that.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Feminist cartoons.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started—and writing, too.
• 42:23
  So I learned—that was where I began doing the drawing and the
• 42:26
  writing together,
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: which is what I do on Substack.
• 42:28
  I do a lot of writing as well as not only New Yorker cartoons,
• 42:32
  but political cartoons or—
• 42:34
  Anyway,
• 42:35
  and then Matt Bores had this thing called The Nib,
• 42:38
  which was wonderful.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was great.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: he invited me to contribute there,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: which I did for a number of years,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: and he was a great editor,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: and he pushed me.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: He pushed me to be more opinionated in my work, which I was.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: I always give him some credit for it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: urging me to speak my mind more in terms of women's rights.
• 43:00
  Which I was already doing,
• 43:01
  but I was afraid to...
• 43:04
  So I did cartoons about rape and assault.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that was interesting.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they folded.
• 43:11
  But I also started doing writing and drawing for Medium,
• 43:15
  which is another nice platform.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still there.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: But then when Substack came on, I just
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: It has a more informal feel for me than medium.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's just people are pretty forgiving, I think.
• 43:32
  They just want to—and I'm still appalled at how people want to
• 43:37
  hear what I have to say.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Appalled?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Me?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I grew up a little shy young woman in a time when—
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: There were not many women op-ed writers, let alone cartooners.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, oh, we're not supposed to share our opinion about anything.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: That was a long time ago.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does feel... Yeah, I know what you mean.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 44:03
  I always have this imposter syndrome about writing on Substack
• 44:06
  because I feel like
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's for writers and I don't consider myself a writer.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you are.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: So get over it.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, this is what people keep telling me is to get over it.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because I just... It's not that I don't like doing it.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: I love writing.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't think I'm that good at it.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why I do it is to try and get better at it.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's the only way you're going to get better.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's what people—sorry.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, go on.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: People ask me about the New Yorker and the rejection rate,
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: and it is horrible that we get rejected so much.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we draw eight or ten ideas a week, and maybe they'll buy one.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, right.
• 44:49
  But the thing is,
• 44:50
  the more you draw,
• 44:51
  the better you get,
• 44:52
  supposedly,
• 44:52
  or hopefully.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you learn how to find your style.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: You learn how to find your voice the more you draw and write and create.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's learning by doing.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's learning by doing.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: The rejection rate is,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: so many people ask me about it because it's,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people are surprised that we,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: it's sort of spec work.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of, you know, you pitch and pitch and pitch and then hope to...
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: hope to sell,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: and there's a lot of cartoonists submitting,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: but I feel like that's,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: without that rejection,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: the ability to tolerate rejection,
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: you're not going to really last long in cartooning,
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: because most of cartooning,
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: especially when you're starting out,
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: is rejection.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of rejection.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know,
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: people seem fascinated by the almost masochistic level of consistent...
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: There is a level of that,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: yeah.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: You and I,
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: we have to really start reinventing ourselves because there's no...
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Magazines are dying,
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: are almost dead,
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: and there's no outlets for what we do,
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: really,
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: much.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why we do the live drawing, that's why we do the subtitles.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Just with our audience.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: And communicate with other people.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: Nice alien.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Very friendly.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is he friendly?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can't tell.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: He looks friendly, but I feel like he's got opinions about things.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's got that odd look about him.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: I actually noticed Cal, Kev Callagher, he's joined us.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's in the chat.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Cal.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's actually going to be on next Thursday, everybody.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Next Thursday at 12 p.m.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: He's going to be right here on Drawing Anything.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be drawing together.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: I remember watching Cal when he recently jumped over to Substack.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's so nice watching.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: He's got such a beautiful style.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: But also his ideas, his composition, his draftsmanship.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: He has this...
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: ability to,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: distill things,
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: even without captions,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: just sort of distill these ideas and these really powerful images.
• 47:17
  And I remember watching him at that AAEC event we were both at
• 47:22
  in Columbus,
• 47:22
  in Ohio.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say it was like seven years ago now, six or seven years ago.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we were all talking.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was really interesting.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Something really struck me.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: When I was watching him,
• 47:32
  he had a drawing board out and he was drawing his cartoon for
• 47:35
  the day with a dip
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: pen and ink on a big
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: a big wooden drafting board and it was during the AGM business meeting.
• 47:45
  And I remember we were talking about the future of editorial
• 47:48
  cartooning and about
• 47:50
  the new generation coming up doing editorial illustration and
• 47:54
  sort of sequential
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: stuff like in the Pulitzers now.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking,
• 48:01
  because Matt Bores was there that weekend doing a presentation
• 48:06
  with Larry and...
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: And who else was there?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: There were some other people there from the Nib.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Maddie Ljewski.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: And talking about the fact that it's not the art itself that is...
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: kind of going away.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the craft of editorial cartooning or the,
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: it's just the format,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: the medium that is,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: newspapers and magazines and things like that.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there's still an appetite for it.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that,
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's not this sort of monoculture,
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: ubiquitous,
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: everyone's reading the same newspapers or...
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: and getting the same information.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I also wonder,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have a theory that,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: there is an appetite for it,
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: but there's so much competition now for what we do,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: not in just drawing,
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: but there's,
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: all the late night shows,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: talk shows,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: which are dying too,
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: but they,
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: they used to,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: the daily show was the first time I noticed this,
• 49:04
  that they would take clips from the show the night before and
• 49:07
  put them on the
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: internet.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: And, and it was like a short little opinionated humorous piece.
• 49:12
  And I thought,
• 49:13
  well,
• 49:13
  that's,
• 49:13
  that's like,
• 49:14
  they're taking our job,
• 49:16
  but with video.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like, uh, those, those,
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: We've been in competition with memes,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: also memes and clips of comedians doing what we do.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:35
  Well,
• 49:35
  I mean,
• 49:36
  that's sort of the Jon Stewart era of The Daily Show when they
• 49:39
  started doing that.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I noticed too.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you're right.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was kind of our bread and butter.
• 49:48
  It was just like pulling out a story of the day or the big
• 49:50
  story and doing...
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: making a comedic take on it.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: I have some friends who work on The Daily Show.
• 49:56
  I have a friend who's a correspondent and host on The Daily
• 49:58
  Show,
• 49:59
  Ronnie Chen.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he... Unsurprisingly, they love editorial cartoons.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: They love political cartoons and cartoons of all kinds.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they do read them.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: They do appreciate them.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: They have sort of a real admiration for them.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so does John.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one of those things where they...
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: All they have is,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: because they can't draw,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: their medium is comedy,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: is sketch and stand-up and monologue.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they sort of, they are doing the same thing as us.
• 50:25
  But the difficulty they have is that they don't have that
• 50:29
  ability to distill it in as few...
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: digestible or translatable lines.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they still have to speak English.
• 50:36
  They still have to make references to set up the gags and the
• 50:41
  references have to be
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: understood and comprehended.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they find it, you know, it's not an easy job.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Not that cartooning is.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying it is a very difficult thing to be able to do those,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: recaps and still...
• 50:59
  Have them resonate,
• 51:00
  even with the,
• 51:01
  you know,
• 51:02
  the news cycles being as short as they are now.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: But they all have cartoons stuck up on their, you know, their cubicles.
• 51:10
  New Yorker cartoons and comics and Gary Larson cartoons and
• 51:14
  things like that.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Cartoon fans, unsurprisingly.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just, I don't know who this guy is.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've been drawing three-eyed aliens nonstop.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now I can't stop drawing.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've moved on to just people.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm slowly evolving these aliens into people.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Who was your early influence when you were,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: I assume you were drawing when you were a kid,
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I loved political cartoonists.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I wanted to do and that's what I did for a long time.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: I loved Pat Oliphant.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: I loved the Jeff McNally sort of school of editorial cartoonists.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: I loved,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: obviously Herb Locke and I liked the editorial cartoonists who were,
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: they had a different style.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: I loved Anne's work, Anne Telney's.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: I loved the cartoonists who had a really unique voice.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 52:07
  There were some international cartoonists that I really enjoyed
• 52:10
  in the UK.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, Searle was a really big influence and Stedman to a degree.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: And Nicola Jennings to a large degree as well.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: She's a fantastic artist, illustrator, editorial illustrator.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd play,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: and then,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: some of the Belgian and French cartoonists that I would see.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I could read Spiro.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't speak French, but I loved the art.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, The New Yorker and Mad magazine.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Mad was a huge influence on me.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: So Sergio and Mort Drucker and Jack Davis.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Mad was for us,
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: even though I don't think I drew anybody in there,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: but it gave us—I'm older than you are,
• 52:57
  obviously—it gave us permission to be irreverent in a way that
• 53:01
  nothing had done
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: before.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like making fun of the status quo in a really obvious and—
• 53:12
  hilarious way yeah yeah the ability for adults to be super
• 53:17
  silly and yeah right
• 53:19
  exactly i want to tell you my story about her block so uh back
• 53:22
  in the 80s early 80s
• 53:24
  uh roxy monroe who was a cover artist and a friend of mine um
• 53:28
  she now does
• 53:28
  children's books but she uh wanted to do a show of of new
• 53:32
  yorker cartoons because
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: she was a buddy with a lot of us um
• 53:36
  And so she curated this show of cartoons,
• 53:38
  New York cartoons,
• 53:39
  and she's from Washington also.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the show started in Washington at a gallery downtown Washington.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we're just there at the opening.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: A bunch of us went down for it.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: And lo and behold, Herb Black comes in.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: He came to see our cartoons.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what a nice man.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: He came to support us, and I loved it.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I got to meet him.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: What did he say?
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was so scared.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: He pointed at my,
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: my cartoon in the show was my,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: my first one published was a dog,
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: a sequential dog,
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: man petting dog cartoon.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he just pointed out and said he really likes the simplicity.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do like, I mean, anything with a dog in it, I'm biased.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just love dogs.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: But Michael posted a George Booth cartoon this morning.
• 54:31
  And anyone who's not subscribed to Michael's sub stack,
• 54:34
  to Inkspill,
• 54:35
  you have to.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you love cartoons, you've got to subscribe.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Maslin, Inkspill.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, Inkspill.
• 54:41
  And it was this great cartoon and it had one of the typical
• 54:50
  George Booth dogs in
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: the cartoon from behind.
• 54:53
  And he just conveys so much in just the posture of a dog and
• 54:58
  the energy of a dog.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember, I always looked at George's stuff and I looked at...
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:07
  Peter Arno and all that sort of stuff and those cartoonists who
• 55:11
  were able to
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: distill in just like one swoopy line or even a wriggly,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: wobbly line so much energy,
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 55:19
  And line economy is such an important thing when cartoons are
• 55:22
  going to be reduced down in size.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: You seem to have this great line economy sort of,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: only use a few lines to get an expression.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, it's much harder to do with fewer lines than more lines.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:36
  But I always enjoyed those cartoons that have,
• 55:42
  they say a lot with very few lines.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you're,
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say that the two things that I think I always jumped out at me,
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: to me about your work is you do great sandbox cartoons.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: Kids in sandbox.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Charles Schultz influence there.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I can tell.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the kids in the bedroom,
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: playing with dolls,
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: playing with toys,
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: talking about what they want to be when they grow up,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: that kind of thing.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: Those kinds of cartoons.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: Kids, things from the mouths of kids is such a...
• 56:16
  It's such a powerful way to convey big ideas with the innocence
• 56:20
  of a child,
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: sort of childlike innocence.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: You do that very well.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: I also used the same concept.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've sold a lot of cave person drawings.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same concept.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like people...
• 56:35
  talking about something that we take for granted now but if you
• 56:39
  look at it through
• 56:40
  the eyes of a child or you look at through the eyes of a cave
• 56:42
  person it's like it's
• 56:44
  very strange behavior or a thing oh yeah a way of looking at at
• 56:52
  the world way of
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: dare i say seeing things uh
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: To that end, we're at the one hour mark.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I am very, very grateful to you.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're insanely busy, so I'm grateful to you for coming on today.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if anyone,
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: I assume everyone is,
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: but if anyone hasn't yet,
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: please subscribe to Seeing Food,
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: which is Liza's.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's fantastic.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: the documentary,
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: which comes out in the fall of this year,
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: what can people do to,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: apart from your Substack,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: where can they find more information about that?
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best place to find?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'll come around and say hello.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, my device is not as smooth as yours.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to get you one of those.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was not a crude joke.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: I did not mean that.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we have a website.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: For the documentary?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: Women laughing film dot com.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Women laughing film dot com.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Instagram.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: Women laughing film.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: I have to hold it because it's not going to cooperate.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: And what else?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably about it.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: We did a Kickstarter.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's over.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think you can build it anymore than that.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: You might be able to.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's a way to donate.
• 58:26
  We still need money for publicity if anybody wants to help us
• 58:29
  out with that.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Publicity for getting the word out and doing a poster.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: We do a poster.
• 58:36
  So you can go to womenlaughingfilm.com and there'll be a place
• 58:40
  to donate for that.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 58:42
  Everybody go to...
• 58:44
  It's womenlaughingfilm.com and also on Instagram,
• 58:47
  women laughing film.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll put those links.
• 58:51
  I'll put a recap to this in tomorrow's post with a full recap,
• 58:56
  replay for everybody.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: Liza, thank you so much.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: Congrats on the film.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: I know it was many years in the making, so congrats on finishing it.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was really...
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: mind-blowing to do and stretched my brain a lot.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, thank you.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Great people.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I love telling these women's stories, too.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: They were so generous, the women that we interviewed.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can't wait to see them.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: Almost 500.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: Almost 500 people, Jason.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is great.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you all for tuning in.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here, everybody.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, have a great day, Eliza.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: See you soon.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.