Latest / Mini Scroll / The Evolution of Celebrity Storytelling in a Chronically Online World w/ Celebrity Memoir Book Club

Transcript

The Evolution of Celebrity Storytelling in a Chronically Online World w/ Celebrity Memoir Book Club · Mini Scroll

• 0:00
  In recent years, we have seen a significant transformation in
• 0:03
  how celebrities communicate and share their personal stories.
• 0:07
  Historically, celebrities relied heavily on traditional media
• 0:11
  channels such as radio interviews, talk shows, and
• 0:14
  magazine profiles to break news and offer insights into their
• 0:17
  lives. These platforms, while
• 0:19
  effective, often came with a layer of mediation.
• 0:22
  Celebrities had to navigate and manage the expectations, goals,
• 0:26
  and editorial standards of such media outlets, which often LED
• 0:30
  to a level of self censorship and protection.
• 0:32
  With the advent of social media platforms, especially video
• 0:36
  first platforms like TikTok and YouTube, there has been a clear
• 0:39
  shift in this dynamic. Celebrities now have direct
• 0:43
  access to their audience without the traditional media filter.
• 0:46
  This change has allowed for a more unfiltered and immediate
• 0:50
  form of self-expression. While some level of self
• 0:52
  censorship still exists, as is expected when maintaining a
• 0:56
  public image, the control has moved into the hands of the
• 1:00
  celebrities themselves. Arguably, direct engagement with
• 1:03
  the audience has democratized the way celebrities share their
• 1:06
  personal stories and manage their public personas.
• 1:09
  Today, they can present their narratives, address real issues
• 1:12
  in real time, and connect with fans on a deeper level.
• 1:15
  The result is a more authentic and immediate form of
• 1:18
  communication. But that is not to say that it
• 1:21
  doesn't come with its own challenges, especially when
• 1:24
  navigating the pressures of maintaining a public image in an
• 1:27
  extremely unforgiving digital land.
• 1:30
  From Centennial World, I'm Lauren Meisner, and this is
• 1:34
  Infinite Scroll, a podcast about Internet culture, the creator
• 1:37
  economy, and how social media is shaping Gen.
• 1:40
  Z Welcome back to Infinite Scroll, everyone.
• 1:43
  I am so excited because today I have two of my favorite
• 1:46
  podcasters ever joining me to discuss how celebrities in the
• 1:51
  digital age now disseminate their stories and how kind of
• 1:55
  TikTok, YouTube, all of these social media platforms and just
• 1:58
  the changing media landscape in general has shifted how we
• 2:02
  perceive celebrities, how we interpret their stories and how
• 2:05
  they tell us their stories. I have with me today Claire and
• 2:10
  Ashley from Celebrity Memoir Book Club.
• 2:13
  I feel like I am going to fangirl.
• 2:15
  I am such a huge fan of their podcast.
• 2:18
  I listen every single week. I do not miss an episode.
• 2:21
  One of my best friends told me probably 18 months ago to start
• 2:24
  listening to their podcast. She was like, you would love it.
• 2:28
  And she was absolutely right. So I am so excited.
• 2:32
  But as always, Please remember to rate, review and subscribe.
• 2:35
  It helps me so much. It helps me grow.
• 2:38
  I think by the time this is up, we'll be at 5000 YouTube
• 2:41
  subscribers. So please keep subscribing and
• 2:44
  now we have to get to 10K. And please sign up for our
• 2:46
  newsletter, also called Infinite Scroll, where on Fridays we
• 2:50
  round up the five biggest thing pieces that you need to know on
• 2:53
  the Internet that week. And also join our Geneva group,
• 2:55
  which is also called Infinite Scroll, where you can chat with
• 2:58
  other people who are obsessed with Internet culture and drama
• 3:01
  and tea. And you can chat with me.
• 3:02
  OK, so I have a lot of YouTube comments.
• 3:06
  You guys have just been like pulling through on the comments.
• 3:09
  So I'll just read one. It's from Sierra Dunphy 1987,
• 3:13
  she says I listen to your podcast every day, but I thought
• 3:15
  I'd play the video versions in the background while I work to
• 3:18
  help get those views up. Oh my God, thank you.
• 3:20
  I love this podcast so much. I've been listening for about a
• 3:22
  year and I think you've done so well with the changes and new
• 3:25
  format. Keep up the good work.
• 3:26
  No one else covers more niche Internet content than you do.
• 3:30
  Thank you so much. I really appreciate kind of the
• 3:34
  OG listeners that have been through all of the changes over
• 3:38
  the last, you know, 6-7 months sticking by me.
• 3:41
  So as I mentioned before, we are going to be talking with Claire
• 3:44
  and Ashley today about the relevance of celebrity memoirs
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  in a chronically online world and how being chronically
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  online, everyone being chronically online now has kind
• 3:53
  of shifted celebrity storytelling.
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  So for anyone that does not know, Claire Parker and Ashley
• 3:59
  Hamilton are the hosts of Celebrity Memoir Book Club.
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  They're best friends and stand up comedians based in Brooklyn,
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  NY and launched their podcast in 2020 with a goal of discussing
• 4:09
  celebrity gossip without having to dig through a celebrity's
• 4:12
  dirty laundry. Celebrity Memoir Book Club has
• 4:15
  reached #7 on the US comedy podcast charts as well as the
• 4:18
  top ten in over a dozen countries.
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  Claire and Ashley have sold out live shows across the world from
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  Los Angeles to London, and soon they are heading down Under for
• 4:28
  a live Australian tour, which of course I will be attending.
• 4:32
  So without further ado, I hope you guys love this episode.
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  I am so excited to speak with my two guests today, Claire Parker
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  and Ashley Hamilton. I am the biggest fan of their
• 4:46
  podcast, Celebrity Memoir Book Club, and today they'll be
• 4:49
  helping me explore this week's topic, the evolution of
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  celebrity public image and storytelling in a chronically
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  online world. So welcome Claire and Ashley.
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  Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us.
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  I'm so excited to chat with you guys.
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  So for anyone that is not familiar with the podcast or
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  your story, can you just share kind of the origin story of
• 5:11
  Celebrity Memoir Book Club? How did the podcast come about
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  and have you guys always been into pop culture?
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  So I'll give a quick background of how we met and how the
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  podcast started. Basically, we were both stand up
• 5:21
  comics in New York City. We met doing stand up.
• 5:24
  Every stand up comedian has to have a podcast that's kind of
• 5:26
  like the new tax, whether or not anybody listens, it's just part
• 5:29
  of the package of doing stand up these days.
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  So we met I think in August and then decided we want to do a
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  podcast, realized there is no Britney Spears podcast in the
• 5:37
  market. And we were like, how could that
• 5:38
  be possible? We're both 90s kids.
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  Like we grew up with her. We're like, OK, well, we have to
• 5:42
  be the people that deliver Britney to the ears of the
• 5:45
  masses. We started a Britney podcast
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  that December. And sure enough, I think a lot
• 5:48
  of people also noticed the whole, because I think there was
• 5:51
  a couple other Britney podcast that came out like the exact
• 5:53
  same week. But we started doing that and we
• 5:54
  were having fun. We weren't particularly research
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  based. We were just like reminiscing
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  and chatting and gabbing. And then when the Free Britney
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  movement started, it started mostly on Twitter and kind of
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  like underground people started coming to us and being like,
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  well, what do you think? Is she being held hostage?
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  And we didn't think it was actually that fun to joke and
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  talk about somebody who may or may not be being held captive by
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  their own family. So we stopped that podcast and
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  we started a new one called We're in a Fight with Claire and
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  Ashley. And it was supposed to be about
• 6:18
  female friendship and talk about like the dynamics and the
• 6:20
  breakups. And it's just like so much more
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  complicated than relationships. So there's so many relationship
• 6:24
  podcasts and not that many friendship podcasts.
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  So we were like, this is what we want to be talking about.
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  Ashley and I are famous for like bickering in public the way a
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  bad couple might or siblings. And so we wanted to just kind of
• 6:34
  like say, it's OK to have confrontation with your friends.
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  You know, the way that I think a lot of female friendships,
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  things get buried and then ten years later, you hate each
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  other, but you're still bridesmaids in each other's
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  weddings. And so we kind of wanted to
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  unpack that. It did end up being super toxic
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  for us personally to be discussing our own fights every
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  week. So we abandoned that.
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  And we wanted to talk about pop culture, but we wanted to do it
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  in a way that did not drive anybody to the Britney Spears
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  conservatorship. I think after the Britney
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  podcast, we were looking for what we call like an ethical way
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  to consume pop culture. And these memoirs started coming
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  out and we just kind of had this like light bulb moment of like,
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  oh, this is how how we can talk about celebrities using their
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  own words against them sometimes and getting the real story and
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  getting to like know the background.
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  So celebrity memoir book Club was born.
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  We wanted to do it starting March 2020, but if you recall,
• 7:22
  there was a pandemic and then so it came out September 2020.
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  We've both. I think one of the things that
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  bonded us initially when we first met is that we love pop
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  culture and we love just like really getting into the weeds.
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  But we felt very like, oh, it's dangerous to do that unless
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  you're like looking looking at a specific source.
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  There's so much information out there that can be so like
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  violent. But the celebrity memoir, man,
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  you can just dive into it and it's a fun time.
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  No, absolutely. So how do you guys navigate the
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  celebrities inherent bias? Since obviously these memoirs
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  are so personal? How do you think the nature of
• 7:57
  the medium influences your reviews and your analysis?
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  I think a lot of times, especially as we've read more
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  and more of them, you can kind of tell.
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  I think there are obviously some celebrities we're a lot more
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  familiar with than others when we read their memoir.
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  So sometimes there are things we're reading it.
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  I'm just like, well, that's not what happened because I remember
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  it. And I've been following your
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  career for decades where there are other people where I
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  actually would have no idea if they're lying or not because I'm
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  not that familiar with their work.
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  But you can kind of feel it in the themes and the overarching
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  plot of the book sometimes where you can say, well, these things
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  don't add up because that's not how human behavior works.
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  And I've read enough about these celebrity memoirs, I've read
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  enough about, like, the evolution of celebrity to know
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  that there is something massive being left out here because
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  there is simply no way to go from point A to point B Like,
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  surely there was a fight. You know what I mean?
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  We just read Demi Moore's book, for example.
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  We just reread it because we, it was, I think, the third book we
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  ever covered. And, you know, there is a period
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  of time where, like, I think that she actually did an
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  incredible job. We both really liked it the
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  second time around. But there are certain like
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  massive falling outs where you're like, well, something
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  bigger must have happened that is not being explicitly
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  expressed in the pages because people just don't cut each other
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  out of. Their Yeah, at one point none of
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  her children are speaking to her and she's like, was I that bad?
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  And it's like, well, I guess yes, I guess we need to like
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  hear from their perspective what it was like.
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  And she kind of will be like, well, I know that I was overly
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  obsessed with Ashton Kutcher and I know that like I was drinking
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  a lot, but should all three of my children and my ex-husband
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  all have abandoned me and you're like, OK, well let's how bad was
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  the drinking? How bad was the Ashton?
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  What's your addiction? Or, like, Michael Phelps, we
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  just read for this last week's episode, and he is someone who
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  has two DUI's, and he'll just sit there and be like, you know,
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  sometimes I wondered if I had some unresolved issues.
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  And it's like, yeah. It's every single time they
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  drank they happen to get caught. That's not how life works.
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  You don't get a DUI every time you drunkenly Dr. You don't get
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  a DUI every time you have a single sip of alcohol.
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  To have gotten a DUI and then still continue drunk driving,
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  yeah, a lot of people, they get one DUI.
• 10:09
  They say boy, oh boy, better be more careful next time, yeah?
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  I think if you're only copying to what you've been caught in
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  the book, then you can, we can kind of assume that you're
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  withholding. But as Ashley said, even in less
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  treacherous things like things that aren't like illegal or
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  frowned upon, the way that people's personal values come
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  through when they don't even know it, just like what people
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  choose to share about themselves.
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  If you think about somebody's life, like I'm 31, how I would
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  sum up my life would say just as much about me as what I'm saying
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  about those moments because you know someone else, I look at my
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  life and go, oh, these are the interesting parts.
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  But like, what's interesting to you?
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  What are you like? Jlo is a good example of someone
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  who has a memoir that I don't know if she knows is out there.
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  But the whole thing is about like finding love and why she's
• 10:49
  totally OK and she doesn't even need love and she's so happy
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  alone and blah, blah, blah. And you're like, OK, you doth
• 10:54
  protest too much. So things come out even when you
• 10:56
  don't know it. Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:58
  I think what's so interesting about your podcast specifically
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  is obviously it launched kind of like you said, in the throes of
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  COVID. And around that time, TikTok
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  launched and just the landscape of celebrity storytelling
• 11:12
  changed so much. It was like overnight.
• 11:15
  You know, if we look back a few decades compared to now, there
• 11:18
  have been so many changes in the way that celebrities curate
• 11:21
  their public image and tell their stories.
• 11:23
  Back in the day, some of the most popular platforms were late
• 11:26
  night talk shows, for example, or magazine interviews or even
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  tell all books. However, these days we have
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  headlines like, you know, talk shows are past their prime and
• 11:35
  things like that, and the way that celebrities interact with
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  their fans has changed so much. How would you characterize the
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  shift away from traditional mediums of celebrity
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  storytelling? I think that social media in
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  general has done a really interesting job of moving us
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  away from traditional mediums of storytelling.
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  I think, I mean, I remember the first major shift being the
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  invention of Instagram Story. Like not even just Instagram, I
• 12:02
  think that was a major shift, but Instagram Stories.
• 12:05
  I remember there being like a New York Times or some major
• 12:08
  profile on busy Phillips and how she had kind of catapulted
• 12:12
  herself from like, side actress to mainstream celebrity because
• 12:16
  people felt so connected to her because she was like,
• 12:18
  incessantly posting on Instagram Stories.
• 12:21
  And I think that the way it's allowed celebrities to take
• 12:25
  their narratives into their own hands has been really
• 12:28
  interesting and overall positive.
• 12:30
  But now we're seeing this insane shift again via TikTok because
• 12:35
  first it was all through like press releases, media tours,
• 12:40
  like major things that required another person to like filter
• 12:44
  the publication. And so it was all very
• 12:46
  contrived. Then all of a sudden we were
• 12:48
  seeing people, celebrities being their authentic selves on
• 12:50
  Instagram and on social media or like, quote UN quote authentic.
• 12:53
  But then they learned to furnace, like presenting that
• 12:56
  authenticity. And I feel like a lot of
• 12:58
  celebrities, you know, started to put forth very like
• 13:01
  contrived, authentic, quote UN quote authentic versions of
• 13:03
  themselves on the Internet. And now we have this TikTok wave
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  where no one believes anything anyone is seeing is authentic.
• 13:10
  Everyone is so well versed in like PR, not well versed, but
• 13:14
  like aware of PR strategy and like the puppeteering behind the
• 13:19
  scenes that now every time anything happens ever,
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  everyone's like, that's an Easter egg, that's a plant.
• 13:24
  This is APR move. This isn't ever like, it's very
• 13:27
  interesting where we're at right now, where like, no one believes
• 13:29
  anything. I think what's happened with
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  social media, as I was actually was saying, on the one hand, we
• 13:34
  developed these parasocial relationships with what we
• 13:35
  believe to be the true person. Like back in the talk show
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  profile days, you got one infrequent glimpse into who they
• 13:43
  were when they were doing press. And you know, you can't get
• 13:45
  somebody's essence. I think on a talk show, I think
• 13:46
  somebody shows up, you can kind of pick up on their energy, you
• 13:49
  decide if you like them or not, it's being filtered through the
• 13:51
  interviewer, etcetera. But now we have simultaneously
• 13:54
  this direct access to the celebrity.
• 13:56
  And at the same time, I think because of the rise of social
• 13:58
  media, the idea of the celebrity as brand got more powerful than
• 14:01
  ever. And now it is no longer how much
• 14:03
  money they were making in a movie and how much money they
• 14:05
  can make in one Lancome ad. Now it was every single aspect
• 14:08
  of your life can be commodified. And so like a celebrity is no
• 14:12
  longer just their films and their one makeup.
• 14:14
  It's films, their own makeup line, their own perfume line,
• 14:17
  their own bikini line, their own muff tail line, their own,
• 14:20
  etcetera. So now it's like we have this
• 14:22
  weird split. On the one hand, we want them to
• 14:24
  be realer than ever, but on the other hand, they need to be
• 14:26
  protected more than ever because they are the face of so many
• 14:29
  different streams of income for so many different people.
• 14:32
  And I think as Ashley said, the interesting thing, in addition
• 14:34
  to the fact that so many people, I call it like blind item
• 14:36
  culture, this idea that if you hear something anonymously, it's
• 14:39
  more authentic than if you hear it straighten the horses mouth.
• 14:42
  Like if Blake Lively gets up there and goes, I'm going
• 14:44
  through a divorce, you're like, that's not true.
• 14:46
  That's PR. Meanwhile, if some fucking blog
• 14:48
  goes, I heard they're getting divorced, you're like, well, it
• 14:51
  has to be true. I heard it from no one.
• 14:52
  Like I heard it from like an unnamed source.
• 14:54
  And that's the most. And then on the other hand, I
• 14:56
  think you still have like boomers, young people, people
• 14:58
  who are less online, who are falling for the PR more than
• 15:02
  ever, who are getting like the most sanitized version of these
• 15:05
  people. So it's like within every
• 15:07
  celebrity, there's the US Weekly people version that's being
• 15:10
  like, come meet our new baby. And then there's the blind item
• 15:13
  by blind item version that's like, that baby's not theirs.
• 15:16
  They stole it from a gutter. They've been no crack this old
• 15:19
  time and it's crazy because I'm like, surely both sides of the
• 15:23
  camp, Like there is a middle ground where maybe they tried
• 15:26
  crack once but then they had that baby.
• 15:28
  No, I totally agree. Like it's so wild, kind of what
• 15:32
  you said about like Easter eggs and like how we perceive
• 15:34
  celebrity PR, like everything is APR strategy now.
• 15:37
  It's so wild. I think we give you celebrities
• 15:39
  a lot more credit than they deserve, to be honest.
• 15:42
  Sometimes they're just horny hot people out on the town.
• 15:46
  And I think that, like, sometimes the fandoms it is
• 15:48
  people's, like, allegiance to it is so insane.
• 15:51
  The fact that even when you're like, bringing Swifties into the
• 15:54
  conversation and, like, be careful, yeah.
• 15:56
  Me and my truth be sit in silence.
• 15:59
  No, absolutely. So obviously, you know, kind of
• 16:02
  despite, I suppose social media, the celebrity memoir seems to be
• 16:07
  going really strong. We've had a few kind of viral
• 16:09
  memoirs in recent years. Obviously.
• 16:11
  Jeanette Mccurdy's memoir and Julia Fox's memoir are two that
• 16:15
  come to mind. In your view, what unique
• 16:18
  insights or experiences does a celebrity memoir offer compared
• 16:22
  to other forms of traditional media?
• 16:24
  Like why has it remained relevant?
• 16:26
  I think there's a couple things going here.
• 16:27
  One, what I would say makes it unique and better is what makes
• 16:31
  them good, and that is some of this often foregone by the
• 16:35
  author is time and perspective. I think when you're in the
• 16:38
  middle of these storms and I think something these good
• 16:40
  memoirs really put forth is how quickly your life can change
• 16:43
  overnight, how often things are happening to you.
• 16:45
  I mean, she used to be more just because we read it yesterday as
• 16:48
  an example. You know, within five years, she
• 16:50
  went from being a completely broke teenager to one of the
• 16:54
  most famous women on earth, making millions of dollars,
• 16:56
  married twice with a baby to Bruce Willis who already wanted
• 17:00
  out. You know what I mean?
• 17:00
  And for that's all happened to somebody in like 36 months is a
• 17:04
  lot. And I think when you're inside
• 17:06
  of it and you're trying to handle all of the like when
• 17:08
  you're in the middle of that kind of storm, it could be 10
• 17:10
  people who hate you. It could be the entire globe
• 17:12
  who's mad because your movie sucks.
• 17:14
  It's hard to get perspective until you come out of it.
• 17:17
  So I think the best memoirs do have time.
• 17:19
  And I think that's something that like a YouTube apology or
• 17:22
  an Instagram caption can't really you just can't.
• 17:25
  You can't do it contemporaneously.
• 17:28
  Yeah. And I also think it's just the
• 17:29
  gravity of the medium. I think that if someone is to
• 17:32
  put out a Instagram note clarifying something that
• 17:36
  happened in the media, there's something about that that just
• 17:38
  feels very disingenuous nowadays.
• 17:40
  Like if someone just does like an Instagram text post story,
• 17:43
  you're just like, OK. But when you like fully put your
• 17:46
  story into a book, like a book, this printed form of media has
• 17:51
  more like gravitas. And I think that people are very
• 17:56
  a lot more likely to take what you're saying seriously, unless
• 18:00
  it's one of those books that is just like pictures and garbage.
• 18:03
  Like there are a lot of those that come out too.
• 18:05
  But I think that when a celebrity really sits down and
• 18:07
  it's like, OK, I'm going to write my entire story into 300
• 18:09
  pages, people take it a lot more seriously than if they were to
• 18:12
  do like a long form interview where they sit down and say
• 18:15
  like, OK, I want you to really know my story.
• 18:17
  Yeah, and I guess part of it too.
• 18:19
  Like if I considered why I would read a celebrity memoir, it's
• 18:22
  because I'm interested in how someone got to where they were,
• 18:26
  and that's often missed. I mean, unless they're like a
• 18:29
  nepo baby or something, but you know what I mean?
• 18:31
  Like if if there is an element of mystery to their story, I
• 18:34
  want to know like how did they get to where they are?
• 18:36
  Yeah, and they'll tell ya, sometimes in way too much
• 18:39
  detail. But sometimes in no detail at
• 18:41
  all. Sometimes they're like, I moved
• 18:42
  to LA and I wanted nothing more. Anyway, the next week I was
• 18:45
  sitting down with my agent. You're like, well, how'd you get
• 18:47
  an agent? That's like a really difficult
• 18:48
  thing to get sometimes. Like the details they leave out
• 18:51
  are so funny. I mean, busy Phillips has Ashley
• 18:52
  talked about? She has a memoir, and I remember
• 18:54
  reading hers and she's just like, so upset because at 23
• 18:57
  she'd only done like one movie. And she's like, when will I get
• 18:59
  a second movie? And I'm like, okay, well, maybe
• 19:02
  next week. It seems like things are running
• 19:03
  pretty fast. Maybe when you're done filming
• 19:05
  the season of Dawsons Creek, the biggest TV show out there.
• 19:10
  Yeah, totally. So Speaking of social media and
• 19:14
  like fan parasocial relationships, I know you've
• 19:17
  covered some memoirs of celebrities who were deeply
• 19:20
  engaged with online culture and like obsessed with, I don't
• 19:23
  know, social media and Twitter, for example.
• 19:25
  I'm wondering if you think having an obsession with social
• 19:28
  media impacts personal storytelling and the nature of
• 19:31
  the celebrity more broadly? I think something interesting
• 19:34
  I've seen is people who come up through social media or reality
• 19:37
  TV because their fame vessel has been oversharing.
• 19:42
  There's a lot of skipping that goes on.
• 19:44
  There's a lot of things where they assume you already know,
• 19:47
  like a lot of reality TV stars will refer to a specific scene
• 19:50
  on TV and be like, here's what actually happened there.
• 19:52
  And if you don't know that television show, you're kind of
• 19:54
  like, well, what happened? You're like, why is this even
• 19:56
  important? So I think a lot of like social
• 19:59
  media and reality stars have that kind of an interesting job
• 20:03
  with these because often they're very rarely reflective.
• 20:05
  There are always people in the prime of their fame, which is
• 20:07
  the worst kind of celebrity memoir because it means they're
• 20:09
  just. Capitalizing, it's more we call
• 20:11
  it like merchandise more than anything.
• 20:12
  And it's not reflective. It's not finding the general
• 20:14
  patterns and narratives. It's not sifted.
• 20:17
  But I also think they're doing this weird thing where in
• 20:20
  theory, what we like about them and what they've gotten famous
• 20:22
  for is being transparent and honest, right?
• 20:25
  Like an influencer is somebody that you're like, I watched you
• 20:27
  the whole time and you should in theory know what's been going
• 20:29
  on. So then to get this like what
• 20:30
  was really happening book, it's kind of preposterous.
• 20:33
  We just read somebody, Oh, Tori Spelling, who we're obsessed
• 20:36
  with, who literally opened her 4th memoir being like, now that
• 20:39
  the my reality show is cancelled, I can tell you what
• 20:41
  was really happening. And you were like, well, then
• 20:43
  why did why are we calling it a reality show?
• 20:45
  Like it's funny to be like, and then when are you gonna write
• 20:47
  the book being like, well, here's what was really happening
• 20:49
  behind the book behind the show, behind the podcast.
• 20:51
  How many layers of authenticity can you have before people just
• 20:54
  call you a fraud? And I think The Smiths Will and
• 20:56
  Jada Pinkett had that problem of how many times can you go back
• 20:59
  and be like, well, actually here's the real truth and then
• 21:02
  be like, OK. The truth behind the truth.
• 21:03
  And then you're suddenly at some point you just go.
• 21:05
  I guess you'll never tell the truth.
• 21:07
  Yeah, I also think that there is a certain type of celebrity, and
• 21:10
  it is the type of celebrity who is, one, more likely to write a
• 21:13
  memoir and two, more likely to overshare online and therefore
• 21:16
  become a celebrity via oversharing channels, who is
• 21:20
  obsessed with public perception of them more than they're upset.
• 21:23
  Like, these are the people who are celebrities, not artists,
• 21:25
  Kind of like they're obsessed with the perception of them.
• 21:28
  They're obsessed with like media and storytelling over being a
• 21:33
  musician, being an actor, being whatever.
• 21:35
  And so they, I feel like their books are so responsive to the
• 21:38
  media and not just telling a life story.
• 21:41
  Like they're putting a book out there specifically to respond to
• 21:45
  a number of stories about them. And it like a, a certain
• 21:48
  perception of them, not because they're like, oh, I'm an
• 21:51
  interesting person who's LED an interesting life.
• 21:53
  Let me tell you the story. And that is like, it's not every
• 21:55
  celebrity memoir, but it's the majority.
• 21:58
  Yeah. And I guess on that note, do you
• 22:00
  see cancel culture shaping the way that celebrities tell their
• 22:04
  story, whether it's on social media or in the memoirs that you
• 22:07
  read? I guess comparing some early
• 22:09
  your memoirs free, you know, quote UN quote TikTok, cancel
• 22:12
  culture or not, how do you see a difference in how they report on
• 22:16
  those kinds of scandals that they've had?
• 22:18
  There are a couple different ways that they do it and I think
• 22:21
  it can be really interesting. Some of them will brush past it
• 22:25
  entirely and like, and then we'll finish a book and it's a
• 22:28
  celebrity we're not super familiar with.
• 22:30
  And people will then come to us later and be like, but did you
• 22:32
  know that like XYZ happened? And it's just like, what?
• 22:35
  No, I didn't. I can't believe that it was just
• 22:37
  completely left out. And that's kind of, I think what
• 22:39
  they're relying on. They're trying to, like, rewrite
• 22:41
  their story without Paris. Hilton is a really good example
• 22:44
  of that. She's somebody who left out a
• 22:45
  lot of the things she's done. And then but Paris Hilton's
• 22:48
  another good example of someone who left in some of it because
• 22:53
  then you can say like, well, it seems she knows she wasn't
• 22:56
  always acting great. I don't.
• 22:59
  It's hard to. I will say that I think cancel
• 23:01
  culture is such the new thing that we're not really singing it
• 23:03
  in books. I think historically pre like
• 23:06
  the social media attempt to like be politically correct, the
• 23:10
  things people are getting quote UN quote cancelled for were like
• 23:12
  women existing. You know what I mean?
• 23:14
  Like a woman putting on 10 lbs and doing a movie.
• 23:16
  And so when they read about that in their books, they're almost
• 23:18
  always vindicated. I would say very few, like very
• 23:21
  rarely when women look back at why they were like dethroned as
• 23:24
  a popular figure in pop culture, was it because they like really
• 23:27
  did something fucked up and like deserved it.
• 23:30
  So I think it'll be a while before we we really can get an
• 23:33
  overarching idea of how people handle like like online
• 23:36
  cancellations because I think that's a pretty relatively new
• 23:39
  thing. I mean, at the end of the day,
• 23:40
  like, yeah, Demi Moore took a photo pregnant and people wanted
• 23:43
  her dead. Mariah Carey had a nervous
• 23:45
  breakdown as she is allowed to and people wanted her dead.
• 23:48
  The amount of. Jessica Simpson wore pants and
• 23:50
  people still mad at her. Yeah, she dared to weigh, weigh
• 23:53
  128 lbs and wear pants and people wanted her dead.
• 23:56
  Like these are things when you look back, you go we really
• 23:58
  fucked up there. So I don't know that we've seen
• 24:01
  a then of course, men. Men, the things that they should
• 24:05
  have bragged about or are things that they're so excited they
• 24:08
  did, they're like, Oh my God, isn't it crazy the way that I
• 24:10
  disrespected this woman and like.
• 24:12
  That sounds horrible. So I guess to that point then do
• 24:16
  you, are you seeing kind of that boundary between creator and
• 24:21
  celebrity or influencers and quote UN quote celebrity in the
• 24:25
  media that you guys are consuming like the memoirs?
• 24:27
  Do you see that line as very distinctive, or do you find that
• 24:30
  when these personalities report on their stories, it's very
• 24:34
  similar? I definitely think you can see,
• 24:37
  I think more famous people, not always, but they tend to not
• 24:40
  need the money as much and they tend to have a longer career.
• 24:43
  And so they have that thing I'm talking about where they're able
• 24:45
  to look back on more and be more insightful and more interesting,
• 24:47
  more genuine. I do think anybody who feels
• 24:50
  like a 15 minutes of fame type celebrity, if they're doing a
• 24:53
  memoir, it is because they are like, well, I can't do a nail
• 24:56
  Polish line, so I'll do a book instead.
• 24:58
  There's like A and I feel like it's very much rushed.
• 25:01
  I always say, like, who came up with the idea?
• 25:02
  Was it the publishing house or was it the celebrity?
• 25:04
  If a celebrity wants to write a memoir, they go, I have
• 25:06
  something to say that tends to be a much deeper, juicier, more
• 25:10
  interesting, complicated text than if, I mean, someone came to
• 25:13
  you tomorrow and said, hey, do you want to write a memoir and
• 25:15
  get it out in six months? Like, how good could that be?
• 25:17
  And that's what a lot of these reality stars tend to have.
• 25:20
  Yep, for sure. So, looking ahead, what would be
• 25:23
  your predictions for the future of celebrity memoirs?
• 25:25
  Or like the broader celebrity landscape as digital and social
• 25:29
  media continue to evolve. I think something we're going to
• 25:32
  start seeing more and more of that I've noticed is in order to
• 25:34
  be taken seriously as a true celebrity, to make the jump from
• 25:37
  social media to you have to dial back on social.
• 25:40
  Something I think an interesting case study would be Emma
• 25:42
  Chamberlain. Addison Rae.
• 25:44
  Addison Rae and the Demilios Addison Rae and Emma Chamberlain
• 25:47
  have really distanced themselves from like tick tock social.
• 25:50
  They are like full-fledged celebs now, whereas the Demilios
• 25:54
  have stayed very true their tick tock roots and because of that
• 25:56
  they feel like tick tockers. Whereas Addison Rae.
• 25:58
  Kind of feels like a cool IT girl.
• 26:00
  And Emma Chamberlain is like a fashion, I don't want to say
• 26:03
  icon, but she is like a true fixture of high fashion right
• 26:05
  now. And I think I look at, I mean,
• 26:07
  we came up with a couple of comedians who have done very
• 26:09
  well for themselves. I think someone like Rachel
• 26:10
  Sennett, who came up a lot on Twitter and Instagram has really
• 26:13
  distanced herself from those social medias to be seen as a
• 26:15
  movie. So I really think.
• 26:16
  Denny Slate's another good example.
• 26:18
  Yeah, I really think we're going to start seeing people dial it
• 26:20
  back online. Like once you use it to gain
• 26:22
  fame, you have to then create a distance so that you can be
• 26:25
  taken more seriously. And I think like someone like
• 26:27
  Jennifer Lawrence has never even had social media or even the
• 26:29
  celebrities who clearly we use our Instagram as like brand
• 26:32
  pushing. There's no like, pretense that
• 26:34
  this is some insightful, authentic thing.
• 26:36
  I think that's going to be like the height of success and like a
• 26:40
  bragging tool and a way to cultivate the image of stardom.
• 26:44
  I think what we're going to see more is people pulling back
• 26:47
  because I think we're in a real oversharing phase where you had
• 26:49
  to be like viewed as authentic in order to like find success.
• 26:53
  And now that people are realizing you can kind of never
• 26:55
  win at that game, especially in the current era of everyone
• 26:58
  thinking everything is PR, we're going to see people pull way
• 27:01
  back and we'll be back in this kind of place where the only
• 27:06
  insight you get is when they eventually put out a book or
• 27:09
  something like that. I think that there is something
• 27:11
  to like the books people take more seriously are the books
• 27:14
  that we had questions, like we asked for that book.
• 27:17
  There are people where I'm like, well, I'm curious to know what's
• 27:20
  going on in your life and who you are and how you got here.
• 27:23
  Whereas there are other people, like even Addison Rae right now,
• 27:26
  I feel like she came up so online, but if she were to write
• 27:29
  a book, I would want to know about this transition.
• 27:32
  I would want to know about like what's happening with her now.
• 27:35
  Like what? You know what?
• 27:36
  I feel like I don't understand her hopes and dreams anymore,
• 27:39
  but I'm excited to hear about it.
• 27:40
  Whereas with Charlie Demilio, I'm like, well, you're still
• 27:43
  just, you know, doing the Say So dance, and that's fine.
• 27:47
  Renegade hit the Rene. Like I don't have questions in
• 27:51
  the same way that I do just because I feel like you see them
• 27:53
  too much. You want to ask for it.
• 27:55
  And I feel like there are a lot of people now where like they're
• 27:57
  making us ask for it, which is interesting again.
• 28:00
  Yeah, it's like the problem of overexposure for a lot of these
• 28:04
  social media stars now, especially with TikTok.
• 28:07
  Before I let you guys go, I'm curious to know if you have a
• 28:09
  favorite memoir that you've read.
• 28:11
  I had to say, we just read a Demi Moore's and I'm so happy we
• 28:13
  did. I thought that was phenomenal.
• 28:14
  I think the Jeanette McCurdy one is phenomenal.
• 28:16
  We loved Molly Shannon. Danny Trejo is really
• 28:19
  interesting, Viola Davis is great.
• 28:21
  Mikali was weirdly really good. You don't see it coming.
• 28:25
  So those are some good ones. Yeah, amazing.
• 28:28
  I think I've listened to all of those episodes.
• 28:31
  So where can people find you? And you guys are coming to
• 28:34
  Australia? I did mention that in the intro
• 28:37
  before you guys joined, but are there tickets still available?
• 28:40
  Tell us about your tour and where can we find you?
• 28:42
  We are coming in September, I think September 20th through
• 28:45
  September 29th to Adelaide, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and
• 28:50
  Perth. We are so flip and excited.
• 28:52
  You can find us. We're celebrity memoir book
• 28:54
  club, the purple one. It's cute.
• 28:55
  It's like on the line paper. If you are looking for a picture
• 28:59
  anywhere, we're on Instagram TikTok.
• 29:01
  Anyway, you got your podcasts and the link to tickets is in
• 29:04
  all of those places in every single bio and every single show
• 29:06
  notes. And if you Google celebrity
• 29:08
  memoir Book Club Perth, it'll pop right up.
• 29:10
  Amazing. Thank you guys so much for
• 29:12
  joining me. This was such a great
• 29:13
  discussion. Thank you so much for having us.
• 29:15
  All right, you guys, thank you so much for listening to this
• 29:19
  episode. Thank you so much again to
• 29:21
  Claire and Ashley for joining me.
• 29:22
  I hope you guys enjoyed this episode.
• 29:24
  I hope you enjoyed their commentary.
• 29:26
  Like I said, it was like a fangirl moment.
• 29:28
  I was so excited to chat with them.
• 29:30
  So thank you guys so much. Please remember to rate, review
• 29:32
  and subscribe and I will talk to you guys on Mini Scroll on
• 29:37
  Monday. Bye.