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Is the Karl Stefanovic saga a midlife crisis or media evolution? · The Morning Edition

• 0:04
  S1: Karl Stefanovic was the face of Australian morning television for
• 0:08
  S1: 25 years. Lauded for wearing the same suit for a
• 0:11
  S1: year to highlight sexism, laughed at for showing up drunk
• 0:14
  S1: on air following the Logies. Now he's agreed to part
• 0:19
  S1: ways with nine after he featured a far right anti-Islam
• 0:22
  S1: British activist by the name of Tommy Robinson on his podcast.
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  S1: I'm Benjamin Price, filling in for Samantha Salinger Morris, and
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  S1: you're listening to The Morning Edition from The Age and
• 0:34
  S1: The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, columnist and senior journalist Jacqueline
• 0:39
  S1: Maley on whether the Stefanovic saga is some sort of
• 0:42
  S1: rite of passage for the middle aged man, or does
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  S1: it signify a fundamental shift in mainstream media? Jack, you've
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  S1: interviewed many politicians over your career. How many times have
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  S1: you signed off interviews by saying, I love you, mate?
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  S2: Absolutely never. And, you know, I've interviewed some very some
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  S2: politicians are very nice, but they do not evoke those
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  S2: feelings of affection. Uh, no, it was a it was
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  S2: a very strange way to sign off an interview and also,
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  S2: I think probably connotes the extremely chummy, very warm, very friendly,
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  S2: very non-confrontational interview that Carl did, which is, you know,
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  S2: sort of fine. But I suppose if you're going to
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  S2: if you're going to hold yourself out as being a
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  S2: warrior of free speech, then perhaps you need to contest
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  S2: some of the more controversial claims that a person like
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  S2: Tommy Robinson has made, not to mention the absolute misinformation
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  S2: and straight out lies that he peddles, particularly about Muslim people,
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  S2: specifically around this one young Syrian boy, actually, who was
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  S2: the victim of crime. And Tommy Robinson did this whole
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  S2: sort of documentary about how actually the Syrian boy was
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  S2: the perpetrator in this sort of violent incident. And the
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  S2: Syrian young man has actually sued, successfully sued Tubby Robertson
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  S2: for libel. And he keeps repeating this libel. So those
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  S2: are facts that have been established, you know, by a
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  S2: British court. And Tommy Robinson was just allowed to kind
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  S2: of lie openly about a matter of great seriousness on
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  S2: the podcast. And I guess the broader social context, particularly
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  S2: in Britain for this, is that there's a there's a
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  S2: real pushback against immigration. There is a lot of, I
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  S2: would say, vilification of Muslim people happening in the United
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  S2: Kingdom and Muslim immigrants in particular. And we're seeing the
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  S2: consequences of these clashes on the streets in the United Kingdom,
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  S2: most recently in Belfast. So, you know, there is a
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  S2: lot of. It's actually translating into violence, this issue in
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  S2: these these conflicts. So I guess ethically, you would want
• 2:37
  S2: to tread very carefully around such issues.
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  S1: So did you consider Karl Stefanovic a journalist?
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  S2: Um, I mean, I don't want to be snobby about
• 2:45
  S2: it because I think what they do, like, I guess
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  S2: the short answer is no in the sense that he's
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  S2: not he's not a reporter. He's more of a presenter,
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  S2: I suppose. But having said that, I think he self-describes
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  S2: as a journalist, like I went back and listened to
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  S2: his when he won, I think the Gold Logie in 2011,
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  S2: I think it was. He gave a speech where he
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  S2: said that Laurie Oakes, the legendary broadcast journalist, political journalist
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  S2: from channel nine, was his hero and that was what
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  S2: he wanted to do, and that was why he wanted
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  S2: to be in the business of journalism. And he did
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  S2: describe himself as a journalist. So I'm not sure what
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  S2: Laurie Oakes would have made of this interview he did
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  S2: with Tommy Robinson, but I don't think he would have
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  S2: he would have signed off on it as a piece
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  S2: of credible journalism.
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  S1: So why do you think these so-called podcast brews are
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  S1: so excited about freedom of speech? Is this an American
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  S1: import or is there something else going on here?
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  S2: I mean, I think it's part of a wider structural
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  S2: shift that we're seeing in our politics, which is, you know,
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  S2: a sort of surge in support for some right wing
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  S2: populist views. But also, I would say, more broadly, a
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  S2: backlash against some of the gains that progressivism has made
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  S2: over the last decade or two decades. And feminism and
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  S2: the gains of feminism are sort of like front and
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  S2: center in a lot of the pushback, I think, and
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  S2: a lot of the reaction, but it's a sense of
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  S2: the rules having changed and some people being the rules,
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  S2: you know, social rules, rules of ethical behavior, rules of
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  S2: ethics and professionalism within any kind of industry. They've all changed.
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  S2: And some people don't like that. Some people prefer, I suppose,
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  S2: the old way of operating. And so there's a huge
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  S2: backlash against it culturally, I think across the globe or
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  S2: in the West at least. And yeah, Carl is one
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  S2: sort of small part of that.
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  S1: So what can you tell us about sort of this
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  S1: shift more generally to podcasting? Is there much money to
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  S1: be made in podcasting? And I was also wondering, how
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  S1: would you say the algorithm rewards particular topics or how
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  S1: does it function here?
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  S2: Yeah, podcasting is kind of like an absolute boom industry, right?
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  S2: Like everybody would have seen the enormous proliferation of podcasts
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  S2: across all of the different platforms. Every single news organization,
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  S2: including our own, is trying to really get into this
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  S2: area and it's really exciting. I mean, I have lots
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  S2: of different podcasts that I listen to, and they're all
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  S2: sort of window into worlds that I would never, ever
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  S2: be able to access if it wasn't for these podcasts.
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  S2: I also think there's something about the lack of formality,
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  S2: the authenticity, and the sort of conversational rapport that people
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  S2: have within sort of the best podcasts. It's very unvarnished
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  S2: and you feel like you're getting the real thing. And
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  S2: in a world where there's a lot of misinformation, social
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  S2: media is like, you know, pulling us in a million
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  S2: different directions. We don't know what's real and what's not.
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  S2: There's something really authentic that I think people connect with,
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  S2: with the podcast stuff. And it's stripped of the formality
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  S2: of like legacy media. So it's not like, you know,
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  S2: you and I are not talking to each other like
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  S2: we're doing an RN, you know, an ABC interview. It's
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  S2: much more informal. And I think people really are yearning
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  S2: for that actually. So that's what I would say about podcasting.
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  S2: There's so much money in it because people are flocking
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  S2: to that form of media, right? So we know that
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  S2: the algorithm across all social media platforms thrives on eliciting
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  S2: strong emotion. And, you know, there's just been a really
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  S2: good book written in Australia about it by a guy
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  S2: called Ed Coper called Anger Tainment, where if you can
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  S2: elicit a strong emotion of anger or reaction or, you know,
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  S2: strong negative emotion, outrage, even then you're more likely to
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  S2: click on it to engage with it, to get sort
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  S2: of head up by it. And then, you know, the
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  S2: algorithm will reward you with more of that similar kind
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  S2: of content. Now, if you're a content creator, that means
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  S2: that you have to keep serving up ever more outrageous,
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  S2: ever more infamous, ever more sort of controversial stuff. And
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  S2: I think if there's a sort of flaw in the
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  S2: business model that someone like Karl Stefanovic is picking up
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  S2: for himself, it's that like, I think you're on a
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  S2: sort of like you're in a bit of a bit
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  S2: of a death spiral. I think if you're just going
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  S2: for ever more extreme content without any real substance to
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  S2: your interview subjects.
• 6:46
  S1: After the break.
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  S2: There's less and less common ground, I think, in our
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  S2: society and in our political debate and less willingness to
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  S2: find the common ground. And I do think that's a
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  S2: big problem.
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  S1: Your column on the weekend looked at, I guess, the
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  S1: relationship between reaching middle age and the phenomenon we're talking
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  S1: about here. Do you see any connections between figures like
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  S1: Karl Stefanovic, Dave Hughes, and perhaps even Tucker Carlson, you know,
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  S1: venting their opinions, almost going rogue after careers in mainstream
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  S1: media where they've done pretty well beforehand?
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  S2: Yeah. I mean, I don't mean to be mean about
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  S2: the male midlife crisis because women have them, too. But
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  S2: as a friend of mine said to me recently, I'd
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  S2: like to have a midlife crisis, but I still have
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  S2: to make dinner. I don't know if Karl Stefanovic has
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  S2: to make dinner. Um, so yeah, look, I think all
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  S2: of those guys sort of have a common thread, which is,
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  S2: as you say, they've made a lot of money, you know,
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  S2: not commanded enormous kind of contracts and salaries within a
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  S2: mainstream context, you know, commercial, television, commercial radio. In the
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  S2: case of Tucker Carlson, he was you know, he was
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  S2: on Fox News for a long time. I suppose maybe
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  S2: there's a strong ideological sort of fervor there that is like,
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  S2: you know, as Karl Stefanovic says, like, I've always felt
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  S2: really constrained within this kind of straitjacket of news and
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  S2: commercial television where there's guardrails around what I can say
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  S2: and the kinds of people I can have on. And
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  S2: I don't want that anymore. I mean, you know, let
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  S2: a thousand flowers bloom. Let's like go for it. But
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  S2: I do think perhaps there's a level of entitlement there
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  S2: as well, which is that most people, when they take
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  S2: on an employment contract, even if they're a really big star,
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  S2: except that particularly within a commercial contract, there are constraints
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  S2: on them. You know, like most employees have constraints on them,
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  S2: the kinds of things they can say, the kinds of
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  S2: things they can do, the kinds of things that might,
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  S2: for example, annoy or irritate a corporate sponsor or any
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  S2: of the stakeholders in that industry. So to think that
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  S2: or to sort of demand that you don't have any
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  S2: of those constraints is, I think, probably very different to
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  S2: how most workers have to show up at work. And
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  S2: I don't think it's necessarily a curtailment of freedom of
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  S2: speech in the traditional sense.
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  S1: Sure. But at the same time, we live in a democracy, right? And,
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  S1: you know, does Karl Stefanovic have a right to a
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  S1: political opinion here, even if other people find it distasteful?
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  S1: Doesn't he have a right to express it?
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  S2: Yeah. I mean, of course, within the bounds of the law.
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  S2: I mean, we do obviously prohibit hate speech, which is nothing.
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  S2: I'm not suggesting that Karl Stefanovic gets anywhere near that.
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  S2: I suspect Tommy Robinson does, but. Yeah, sure. But I mean,
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  S2: we've we've seen this before where freedom of speech sort
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  S2: of interacts with an employment contract. You know, we've seen
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  S2: it with footballers, for example, here in New South Wales
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  S2: and also in Victoria. You see it in various contexts.
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  S2: I mean we live in the real world, right? So like,
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  S2: if your freedom of speech is being curtailed by the
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  S2: job that you're in, well, you're very free to leave
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  S2: that job, which is effectively what's happened with Karl Stefanovic.
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  S2: I would say that it's difficult, like with someone like
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  S2: Dave Hughes that you mentioned before, it's like really difficult
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  S2: to see. We've heard a lot from these men over
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  S2: the course of their careers. They've had huge platforms, you know,
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  S2: commercial like radio contracts and TV contracts and side hustles
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  S2: like podcasts or comedy shows. It's very hard to see
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  S2: how their speech has not been as free as it
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  S2: could possibly be. We it's been prolific, if not totally free,
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  S2: shall we say?
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  S1: Yes. Um. All right. Well, look, I mean, I guess
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  S1: I'm in that middle aged male category. I'm probably approaching
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  S1: Karl Stefanovic's age. What are some of the warning signs
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  S1: I need to look out for in in terms of
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  S1: all this, you know, feeling like I'm being silenced or, um.
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  S2: Yeah.
• 10:32
  S1: Something.
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  S2: Else. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I guess if you
• 10:36
  S2: start shouting at your family members over the cornflakes, you know, stop,
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  S2: stop when they tell you that they've heard that joke
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  S2: before or something. Stop silencing me.
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  S1: That's. I think that ship has sailed.
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  S2: I look, it's maybe this this stuff is really hard
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  S2: to disentangle from just the ordinary middle aged grumpiness that
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  S2: comes along. I think that most generations have their strengths
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  S2: and also their weaknesses, and most generations probably struggle on
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  S2: some level to move along or to accept the generation
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  S2: coming up, which has a different set of behaviors, attitudes, rules,
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  S2: whatever you like to say. And I find it within myself.
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  S2: There are certain things about younger generations, new ideas that
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  S2: I find confronting or ridiculous, even actually. And, you know,
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  S2: you can either sort of listen to that reaction and
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  S2: ask yourself what it's telling you about yourself, or you
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  S2: can kind of go with it. And I guess if
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  S2: you're a middle aged man of a certain ilk, you
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  S2: might just go with it and not question it, I
• 11:35
  S2: don't know. Um, do you have any thoughts about the
• 11:37
  S2: woke mind virus? I mean, have you started talking about that?
• 11:41
  S2: That's a sign. I think also getting very upset about
• 11:44
  S2: trans issues is another sign.
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  S1: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Those those things don't really excite me
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  S1: that much. Right. What does what I do think about
• 11:53
  S1: is whether we have a capacity to argue anymore.
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  S2: Yeah. This is really important. This is really important. And
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  S2: I think I don't have an answer to that actually,
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  S2: because I find, you know, I have opinions about things.
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  S2: I feel strongly about certain things and I try to
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  S2: argue it with, you know, objectivity and balance and so forth.
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  S2: But there are certain subjects that you probably want to
• 12:18
  S2: avoid with certain people more and more. It would, you know,
• 12:21
  S2: there are certain there's less and less common ground, I think,
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  S2: in our society and in our political debate and less
• 12:27
  S2: willingness to find the common ground. And I do think
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  S2: that's a big problem. I mean, what can we do
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  S2: about it? All we can do is try to be
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  S2: moderate and centrist and to listen to each other.
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  S1: Yeah, yeah. It's just interesting that the internet doesn't really
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  S1: reward that kind of behavior. And being able to access
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  S1: this huge reservoir of information, I think instead of broadening
• 12:48
  S1: our opinions about the world, has perhaps pushed us into
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  S1: silos more.
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  S2: Yeah, I think so too. And the proliferation of content
• 12:55
  S2: and facts, as you say, is like very overwhelming. So
• 12:59
  S2: you can almost pick your own facts. And also it
• 13:01
  S2: means that if you do decide to inform yourself on
• 13:04
  S2: a subject, you know, you can feel sort of end
• 13:06
  S2: up feeling like, well, I know about this. I've read
• 13:07
  S2: about this. So who are you to dare to kind
• 13:11
  S2: of challenge my point of view on this? But of course,
• 13:14
  S2: people are reading different things. So look, I think it's
• 13:17
  S2: it's really, really difficult. It's kind of like the central
• 13:19
  S2: political challenge of our time. And we're seeing it play
• 13:22
  S2: out in the way our politics are going, you know,
• 13:24
  S2: and it's happening here in Australia as it is around
• 13:27
  S2: the world.
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  S1: Just finally, you mentioned before about, you know, sponsors not
• 13:33
  S1: liking certain opinions that presenters or journalists or whoever it
• 13:37
  S1: is might express. No one's actually stopping anyone from saying anything.
• 13:41
  S1: That's not hate speech. Aren't you just talking about consequences?
• 13:45
  S2: Yeah, I would say so. I would say so. And
• 13:47
  S2: particularly like in in a commercial environment and particularly television,
• 13:51
  S2: which is so cutthroat and it's so competitive, you're always
• 13:53
  S2: competing for every single viewer really in terms of the
• 13:56
  S2: ratings race. Yeah, it's these decisions are commercial. I mean,
• 14:00
  S2: you know, if you write a book, like I've written
• 14:01
  S2: a couple of books, when you write a book, you
• 14:03
  S2: sign a contract with your publisher and one of the
• 14:05
  S2: clauses is ill repute clause. And it's like, you know,
• 14:08
  S2: basically if you do something dastardly, controversial, illegal, I don't know,
• 14:12
  S2: there's many ways in which you could bring yourself into
• 14:14
  S2: ill repute. Then you forfeit that contract. Like these are
• 14:17
  S2: these are sort of very, very normal conditions to sign
• 14:21
  S2: up for because, as you say, they have commercial consequences.
• 14:26
  S1: Thank you so much for joining us today.
• 14:28
  S2: Thank you very much for having me, Ben.
• 14:43
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  S1: stall in one nation's popularity. You can read more at
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  S1: The age or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Josh towers.
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