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Crime Con: BTK SERIAL KILLER MYSTERY DEEPENS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace Bind torture kill. That is
0:18
Speaker 1: how Denis Raider wants us to address him B T K.
0:30
Speaker 1: Bind torture kill. The only reason we are devoting this
0:39
Speaker 1: time and this energy to his case is because I
0:47
Speaker 1: believe that there are other victims cases that have not
0:51
Speaker 1: been solved, that are out there. And I know this
0:59
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense first, but I'm one of the lucky
1:02
Speaker 1: crime victim's family. I know who murdered my fiance. I
1:07
Speaker 1: know what happened. A lot of people have never known
1:13
Speaker 1: what happened to their mother or their sister, their daughter,
1:17
Speaker 1: their husband. They just know that in one moment, everything
1:23
Speaker 1: ends and your life as you know it, your dreams,
1:27
Speaker 1: your hopes, your plans, your world is gone. That's how
1:34
Speaker 1: I felt at first when I was told Keith had
1:38
Speaker 1: been murdered. Even now sometimes doesn't seem real, but I
1:47
Speaker 1: do know that my hopes and dreams ended that day.
1:51
Speaker 1: If had not been for the Good Lord, I would
1:56
Speaker 1: have nothing, nothing after he murder. So imagine what these
2:02
Speaker 1: people feel. All these years have passed and they don't
2:05
Speaker 1: know what happened to their mom, their daughter. Can you
2:08
Speaker 1: even imagine that horrible? And that is why we're here today,
2:13
Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for being with us. Okay,
2:17
Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning. You know, Nicole Parton joining
2:22
Speaker 1: us the Forensic Brain Trust. Joe Scott Morgan, and you
2:26
Speaker 1: know what, he's not just an incredible death investigator. He's
2:31
Speaker 1: been on thousands of death scenes and many of them homicide.
2:36
Speaker 1: But do you know he got Jacksonville State University to
2:40
Speaker 1: open its doors to us at Crime Stories and my
2:44
Speaker 1: home Fox Nation, and he actually did a recreation of
2:51
Speaker 1: the murder of Ellen Greenberg, which was ruled a homicide,
2:56
Speaker 1: even though she had twenty two stab wounds, including to
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Speaker 1: the back and the back of her head, in her back,
3:00
Speaker 1: of her neck, and some post mortem after she's dead,
3:04
Speaker 1: the stabbing kept going, it's not a suicide. He re
3:07
Speaker 1: enacted the whole thing with me, I mean, her kitchen, everything.
3:13
Speaker 1: He did that for us. My longtime friend and colleague,
3:17
Speaker 1: renowned a psychologist, Karen Stark. That's Karen with a C,
3:22
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer and longtime friend and Bremner out of Seattle.
3:27
Speaker 1: This lady, I'm telling you amazing and look at her
3:31
Speaker 1: really and on the end, Cheryl McCollum and I have
3:37
Speaker 1: been not just coworkers, but friends since when I first
3:42
Speaker 1: started the District Attorney's office. The first my recollection of
3:46
Speaker 1: first meeting her. Of course everything she says is a lie,
3:50
Speaker 1: but that said, my first memory of Cheryl. We were
3:55
Speaker 1: at a big, big event. I was working with about
4:00
Speaker 1: women's centers, a volunteer at night and had been for years,
4:04
Speaker 1: and we helped start a program. They didn't have cell
4:08
Speaker 1: phones that we would now start giving cell phones. Was
4:13
Speaker 1: it in conjunction with AT and T or then Bell South?
4:16
Speaker 1: To these women, they were like this big for them
4:21
Speaker 1: to call a hotline to get help, and we were
4:24
Speaker 1: so happy. I still remember the number eight hundred eight
4:28
Speaker 1: seven three seventeen sixty six I think was a hotline
4:31
Speaker 1: number that said Cheryl was there in the midst of it. Now,
4:36
Speaker 1: your recollection is completely different.
4:38
Speaker 2: So the truth is, that's the truth. It was two
4:43
Speaker 2: forty seven in the morning, that's possible. I'm at a
4:47
Speaker 2: crime scene with Jim Birds and all these folks in
4:49
Speaker 2: the GBI and Atlanta Police Department. In this little bitty
4:53
Speaker 2: sports car comes flying up, and I mean flying.
4:56
Speaker 1: I used Honda, It's what that was.
4:58
Speaker 2: Right up to the crime scene, this little bitty person
5:02
Speaker 2: jumps out with a big voice. What do you got?
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Speaker 1: What do you have? What can I do?
5:05
Speaker 2: How can I help? And I was like, what is that?
5:10
Speaker 2: And Jim Burt went, you don't know Nancy Grace. She's
5:14
Speaker 2: a prosecutor. And I'm like a prosecutor. I've never seen
5:18
Speaker 2: a prosecutor outside the courthouse in my life, and here
5:22
Speaker 2: she was out at this time of the morning, ready
5:25
Speaker 2: to help, ready to do whatever we needed. Well, we
5:29
Speaker 2: had a house that had some evidence, but it had
5:32
Speaker 2: a detached garage. Well, honey, we were about to get
5:35
Speaker 2: in that thing because we knew that garage held that
5:37
Speaker 2: money tree. And Nancy went, way, way, you better stop.
5:41
Speaker 2: You need a second potential search warrant because that might
5:45
Speaker 2: have even a different address because it's detached. It could
5:48
Speaker 2: ruin your whole case. So she saved that case for
5:51
Speaker 2: us and taught us a lot. But she is the
5:54
Speaker 2: first prosecutor that I ever saw on sea, and that's
6:00
Speaker 2: how we first met.
6:01
Speaker 1: Let me just say right now, I don't believe that.
6:03
Speaker 1: Because if somebody has a shed or an outhouse or whatever,
6:07
Speaker 1: they have a storage unit that's called curtilage c U
6:11
Speaker 1: R T I L A g E. Under the law,
6:13
Speaker 1: and you don't need a second search warrant for that. However,
6:16
Speaker 1: if it was at a different address like besides, okay,
6:19
Speaker 1: maybe maybe you're telling the truth. Guys, I've got one
6:23
Speaker 1: more group of people I want you to meet. My
6:25
Speaker 1: Here she comes the camera hog Jackie Howard, our executive producer,
6:32
Speaker 1: and also Beauty and Brains. Also another Beauty and Brains.
6:39
Speaker 1: Kelly is all like you say, ski hand skin, because
6:42
Speaker 1: that's the only way my phone will call you with
6:44
Speaker 1: me yelling at it. Please stand up. She's gorgeous and
6:48
Speaker 1: she's brilliant. Sidney Wilson is Chris balf here? Maybe I
6:54
Speaker 1: do know My partner in Bloodline Detectives, John Torensia, is here.
6:58
Speaker 1: Where are you Torensia and ladies. He's single. He needs
7:05
Speaker 1: all the help I can give him. There he is.
7:08
Speaker 1: So now you know our family. I want to talk
7:12
Speaker 1: about some other families that we may never meet, the
7:17
Speaker 1: families of btk's victims. You know, even today, when I
7:24
Speaker 1: think about the trial of the guy that murdered Keith,
7:28
Speaker 1: I don't want to think about it. It's still nightmares,
7:33
Speaker 1: still cold sweats. I mean, it never goes away. Has
7:37
Speaker 1: changed the way I lived. I went over, how long
7:40
Speaker 1: was it, Karen start? Oh gosh, almost thirty years before
7:44
Speaker 1: I could think about marriage again. And I almost died
7:49
Speaker 1: in childbirth because I waited so long. Yeah, you told me,
7:53
Speaker 1: you all told me. It affects everything, even the way
7:58
Speaker 1: I raise them sadly. I'm that mom that's driving through
8:02
Speaker 1: the parking lot at lunchtime. I'm you know, I'm not
8:08
Speaker 1: afraid what they're gonna do. I don't think they're gonna
8:10
Speaker 1: run off of vape or do drugs or drink. I'm
8:13
Speaker 1: afraid what somebody might do to them, because it's happened before,
8:16
Speaker 1: and in my world, it will happen again. Think about
8:19
Speaker 1: these people, what they've been through and are going through,
8:24
Speaker 1: and the people that we don't know about yet.
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Speaker 3: B t K.
8:30
Speaker 1: May he rot in hell? That said Nicole Parton. Why
8:40
Speaker 1: do we believe there may be more female victims murder
8:46
Speaker 1: victims of Dennis Raider the Dogcatcher.
8:49
Speaker 4: I think a lot of it comes from the evidence
8:53
Speaker 4: that he left behind.
8:55
Speaker 1: There's the journal.
8:57
Speaker 4: He left a very detailed note book journal of victims.
9:02
Speaker 4: He classified them as projects.
9:05
Speaker 1: Guys. To any of you have a diary, a journal,
9:08
Speaker 1: as they call it now, or I like to scrapbook
9:11
Speaker 1: and I put everything in there, like stubs, pictures, whatever
9:15
Speaker 1: I can fit in the pages of the Twins. This
9:19
Speaker 1: guy kept detailed writings.
9:22
Speaker 4: Detailed writings of what he called his projects, his victims.
9:26
Speaker 4: He included a lot of sketches of the locations of
9:29
Speaker 4: the crimes. He included sketches of victims bound and tied,
9:35
Speaker 4: little girls, women.
9:36
Speaker 5: He drew sketches of them after he would sex assault them, bind, torture,
9:45
Speaker 5: then kill them in weird contorted positions. He would draw
9:50
Speaker 5: sketches of them.
10:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace Nicole parton, I respect everything
10:11
Speaker 1: you've got to say, but I need a shrink, and
10:13
Speaker 1: I need one right now to draw. It's not like
10:16
Speaker 1: you take a picture. You take the time to draw sketches.
10:19
Speaker 1: And now, Nicole, one of these sketches we now realize
10:23
Speaker 1: is the spitting image of a victim. What is that?
10:28
Speaker 6: That's a souvenir, Nancy, and you have to remember, and
10:32
Speaker 6: this is the truth. His sexual gratification is coming from
10:36
Speaker 6: those souvenirs. So he looks at those pictures, he.
10:40
Speaker 1: Means he'll masturbate to them over and over like some
10:43
Speaker 1: guys with to a Penthouse or Playboy or whatever.
10:46
Speaker 6: This is his pornography, the things that he did for
10:50
Speaker 6: his own sexual fantasy. Is always trying to get to
10:53
Speaker 6: that point where he could relive it, recapture it, and
10:57
Speaker 6: get that same excitement.
10:59
Speaker 1: That's why he does Guys, I just want to tell
11:01
Speaker 1: you this one thing I read last night before getting
11:03
Speaker 1: with you today. Everybody on this panel will have a
11:07
Speaker 1: different take on this. Listen to this. This is forty
11:10
Speaker 1: eight hours old. She has never been forgotten. Teen vanishes,
11:17
Speaker 1: forty I's got chills on my right arm. Forty seven
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Speaker 1: years ago. Officials believe BTK killed her another and she's
11:33
Speaker 1: beautiful Cynthia Kenny k I n n E. White. Now,
11:40
Speaker 1: a new task force has just been named, a BTK
11:46
Speaker 1: Task Force. Cheryl and I are on the task for
11:50
Speaker 1: anybody else on the panel that's on the Yeah, okay,
11:52
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, of course, I'm glad you're on the task force.
12:00
Speaker 1: You know what, Sometimes people are born for a certain moment.
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Speaker 1: I think mine was to have the twins. I really
12:06
Speaker 1: do believe that's why I'm here. You never know, Joe Scott,
12:12
Speaker 1: why you are where you are, what piece of the
12:15
Speaker 1: puzzle your life will be you know what, what if
12:19
Speaker 1: you could bring somehow you and Cheryl could somehow bring
12:24
Speaker 1: resolution on this girl to her family.
12:26
Speaker 7: I think that, yeah, that would certainly be fantastic. For
12:33
Speaker 7: one of the things that I do as a college
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Speaker 7: professor teaching forensics, there's something that my students watch once
12:41
Speaker 7: a year. It is a must, and from a forensic standpoint,
12:46
Speaker 7: it's invaluable. I have all of my students in one
12:51
Speaker 7: class that I teach watch BTKS and I'll let the
12:55
Speaker 7: lawyers on the panel explain this. I have my students
13:01
Speaker 7: in my class watch btk's allocution in court, and it
13:08
Speaker 7: will send a chill up of your spine. And I've
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Speaker 7: seen a lot of stuff in my career. But when
13:14
Speaker 7: he stands in that very formal environment and he is
13:17
Speaker 7: able within his mind to recall these very intimate details
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Speaker 7: for us, it's a treasure trove, I hate to say that,
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Speaker 7: a forensic knowledge about what steps he took and all
13:30
Speaker 7: of this stuff, and he has this stuff cataloged in
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Speaker 7: his mind, and I wonder, Nancy, I really wonder what
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Speaker 7: else is contained within his mind that hasn't been unlocked
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Speaker 7: yet to this point. Because I think about those victims
13:45
Speaker 7: every time I watch it. I have to watch it
13:47
Speaker 7: once a year. You feel like you need to take
13:49
Speaker 7: your brain out and scrub it with comment afterwards. But
13:52
Speaker 7: it's compelling as a teaching tool.
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Speaker 1: Guys, Joe Scott is so right. I'm trying to wrap
13:58
Speaker 1: my head around the evidence that may link BTK to
14:04
Speaker 1: Cynthia Kenny. Now, Cheryl, you've seen additional evidence, so I'm
14:09
Speaker 1: not going to ask you to comment on it as
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Speaker 1: part of the task force. Let's go with what we
14:14
Speaker 1: can talk about. First of all, Nicole parton this new
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Speaker 1: victim that I believe was killed by BTK. Where was
14:26
Speaker 1: her disappearance.
14:28
Speaker 4: Was in Osage County in Oklahoma?
14:30
Speaker 1: Where was her body found? She was found in Oklahoma.
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Speaker 1: Don't they have the death penalty?
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Speaker 4: They do have.
14:36
Speaker 1: I missed something. Why is he still alive?
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Speaker 2: They didn't have the death penalty when he confessed.
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Speaker 1: Yes, that's it, that's it, Cheryl, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like
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Speaker 1: Charles Manson, he got the death penalty and then for
14:49
Speaker 1: the next forty years we have to listen to his bs.
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Speaker 1: It's because he's not dead, kills all those people. And look,
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Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm pro or con death penalty. I'm
15:00
Speaker 1: not getting I'm not chasing that ball. What I'm saying
15:05
Speaker 1: is he has all this knowledge about all these victims.
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Speaker 1: He could put their families to peace. But he's not.
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Speaker 1: If this were some other jurisdiction, he would have already
15:16
Speaker 1: had the death penalty. That said, in that window when
15:23
Speaker 1: he was prosecuted the like Charles Manson, the death penalty
15:29
Speaker 1: was either overruled or there was a moratorium. It was
15:32
Speaker 1: overruled for a period of years. Now it's back. Okay,
15:38
Speaker 1: this girl, Cynthia Kinney. That's why I care about the jurisdiction,
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Speaker 1: am Bremner.
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Speaker 8: I mean, like with Manson and the girls, they there
15:47
Speaker 8: was a death penalty and then with it thrown out.
15:50
Speaker 8: Let's see Van Houghton just I don't know if you
15:52
Speaker 8: saw it was granted parole. She was the youngest of
15:56
Speaker 8: the Manson followers. But think about it, they'd all gotten death,
15:59
Speaker 8: which they did get, and then of course Scott Peterson
16:03
Speaker 8: was on death row. But the length they wait using
16:05
Speaker 8: California is about twenty five years from the verdict until execution.
16:11
Speaker 8: And we have the firing squad, of course, coming back
16:14
Speaker 8: all over the country. I think Oklahoma, South Carolina, Idaho
16:19
Speaker 8: did the Valley Dabel case, et cetera. There's a moratorium
16:24
Speaker 8: in my state. We had death by hanging and I'm
16:27
Speaker 8: by lethal injection. So it seems to me we're kind
16:30
Speaker 8: of getting a little more stronger with the death penalty.
16:33
Speaker 7: I don't know how people feel about it, but I think.
16:35
Speaker 8: It's getting a lot more, let's say, being put to
16:38
Speaker 8: more use right than it has been. But back in
16:41
Speaker 8: California with Manson, that was pretty crazy.
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Speaker 1: When it's the.
16:45
Speaker 8: Worst killer I think of all time basically walked free
16:49
Speaker 8: from the death penalty.
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Speaker 1: We're talking about not just Cynthia don Kenney, but Shawna
16:55
Speaker 1: Beth Garby, PJ. Prairie, a missing woman from Kansas. There's
17:02
Speaker 1: Project bell An unsolved murder in Kansas, Oklahoma, case number
17:08
Speaker 1: two unsowed violent crime. There's just so many directions in
17:13
Speaker 1: which we can go, okay, Cheryl McCollum without divulging anything
17:18
Speaker 1: regarding the new evidence that you've seen, and the task
17:21
Speaker 1: force weigh in.
17:23
Speaker 7: Well.
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Speaker 2: The first thing that I always thinks imperative is when
17:27
Speaker 2: somebody gives themselves a nickname, except it to me. When
17:34
Speaker 2: he called himself bind torture kill, that's a freaking confession,
17:43
Speaker 2: straight up the second thing that I think is really
17:47
Speaker 2: important for y'all to understand. When the Sheriff of Osage
17:51
Speaker 2: County asked for a task force we put together, he
17:55
Speaker 2: asked me on a Saturday, and then he said, and
18:00
Speaker 2: you get these people together by Sunday so I can
18:05
Speaker 2: announce it on Monday. And I said absolutely. And the
18:11
Speaker 2: reason I knew it could happen is because I knew
18:14
Speaker 2: when I called Joe Scott Morgan and Susan Constantine and
18:18
Speaker 2: Elena Burroughs from Crime Scene Confidential, and Francy Haiks former prosecutor,
18:23
Speaker 2: and all these unbelievable people, which include Nancy Grace, every
18:30
Speaker 2: single person was going to say yes. Every single person
18:33
Speaker 2: was going to say, whatever I can do, I'm available.
18:37
Speaker 2: I also knew that these folks would do one thing
18:41
Speaker 2: that was going to be the most important part of
18:43
Speaker 2: this entire task force, and that is to have a
18:47
Speaker 2: lot of care and concern and take care of Carrie Rawson.
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Speaker 2: His daughter. Carrie is doing something that is not only unprecedented,
19:00
Speaker 2: think about how difficult this is for her to have
19:04
Speaker 2: her memories, you know, brought to the surface, to meet
19:07
Speaker 2: with all of us, to answer all these questions, to
19:10
Speaker 2: have the media come at her and then come here
19:13
Speaker 2: and expose herself again in a really wrong way to
19:17
Speaker 2: try to help families she's never met. So it's an
19:22
Speaker 2: honor for me to sit with this panel today, to
19:25
Speaker 2: work with this task force, to work with this Sarah's Department,
19:28
Speaker 2: and above all, Kerrie Rawson, I appreciate.
19:33
Speaker 1: All that, but can you weigh in on the crime itself?
19:36
Speaker 2: Okay, don't you love Nancy Grace. You say something, you
19:42
Speaker 2: get a little you know, ovasion as she goes, Well,
19:45
Speaker 2: can you answer my question?
19:46
Speaker 3: Yes?
19:46
Speaker 2: I can answer your question. So, yes, there are things
19:49
Speaker 2: that we now know that are not made public that
19:52
Speaker 2: are leading us to say, look, there's some dots here
19:54
Speaker 2: that we're going to be able to connect. There's some
19:57
Speaker 2: things that are public. So y'all know there has been
19:59
Speaker 2: a dig at his former home. The sheriff has made
20:03
Speaker 2: public that he did find a ligature, and that's one
20:06
Speaker 2: of the things that Nancy and I are most interested in.
20:09
Speaker 1: That gumment. What does that say? Ligature ligature A pair
20:14
Speaker 1: of pantyhose found near where BTK. You know, I'm gonna
20:19
Speaker 1: quit calling him that the dogcatcher killer. That'll irritate him
20:25
Speaker 1: A ligature found. And let's go to our forensic specialist
20:30
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan and of course Cheryl jump in, why
20:35
Speaker 1: is the ligature in bind, bind, torture and kill so
20:40
Speaker 1: important and what can you tell us about it?
20:42
Speaker 7: Joe Scott, Most of the time, when you begin to
20:45
Speaker 7: talk about ligatures, it is a method. It's a method
20:49
Speaker 7: to bring about death. And so you're talking about using
20:53
Speaker 7: this in the same manner that you would use your
20:56
Speaker 7: hands to strangle somebody. The ligature is utilized in order
21:02
Speaker 7: to block the airway externally where you're wrapping it, sorry, guys,
21:06
Speaker 7: where you wrap it around the neck, tighten it down
21:09
Speaker 7: and literally acclude the airway externally where you're pressing down
21:13
Speaker 7: on the airway and also on the carotids here that
21:17
Speaker 7: supply the brain with blood. Your brain demands a lot
21:20
Speaker 7: of oxygenated blood, more so than any other organ in
21:23
Speaker 7: the body, and so you're compromising it that way. And
21:27
Speaker 7: it's certainly it certainly a means to torture and terrorize
21:32
Speaker 7: somebody with. And here's the really interesting thing about all
21:37
Speaker 7: of this, Nancy, is that we have a template. We
21:42
Speaker 7: have a template for what he has done previously. Okay,
21:46
Speaker 7: all of that evidence from all those years ago, the knots,
21:50
Speaker 7: the types of items that he utilized, and now just
21:55
Speaker 7: perhaps if they find anything else in the future that
21:58
Speaker 7: can look back to the pre existing template and compare
22:02
Speaker 7: and contrash.
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Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, let me break that down. Ligature.
22:07
Speaker 1: I asked him about ligature. He falls back on what
22:12
Speaker 1: he's comfortable with and starts talking about the brain, the neck,
22:18
Speaker 1: the ligature, the ligature, the ligature. Does it match the
22:23
Speaker 1: ligatures tied in the other killings when the bodies were found?
22:29
Speaker 1: Is the same square knot? And another thing, I guess
22:32
Speaker 1: you've all taken out the trash, right, okay, and you
22:35
Speaker 1: get the big trash and the bag, and you get
22:38
Speaker 1: the little yellow ties and you tie them. When you
22:42
Speaker 1: tie that, think of the repository of DNA, of epifilial
22:48
Speaker 1: cells you are leaving. When you tie something. Think about
22:55
Speaker 1: the ligature, What, if anything can it proof? Is it
23:01
Speaker 1: a similar transaction? Do I see the same type of tie?
23:07
Speaker 1: My children, both John, David and Lucy are this close
23:10
Speaker 1: to eagle scout. You know how many not sweeve tiede
23:15
Speaker 1: And they're all different. When I tie my shoe, I
23:18
Speaker 1: do it a certain way. My daughter out of the blue.
23:21
Speaker 1: I didn't teach you this does. Bunny ears two of
23:24
Speaker 1: them and then she does something else. Everybody has their
23:27
Speaker 1: thing ligature. What can I learn from the ligature? Number one?
23:34
Speaker 4: Uh?
23:35
Speaker 1: Nicole Parton? Was it panty hose? Panty hose? Yeah, Okay,
23:39
Speaker 1: tell them what we're talking about.
23:41
Speaker 4: It was the panty hose ligature that was found on
23:43
Speaker 4: his property on the latest dig.
23:46
Speaker 1: For his former property. His house was folware. Was it
23:50
Speaker 1: buried in Kansas? Buried, buried, buried in the dirt. Why
23:54
Speaker 1: would you bury a pair of panty hose in a ligature?
23:59
Speaker 1: Well maybe if it's the backyard of a serial killer,
24:02
Speaker 1: like Nicole Parton is telling us, it may be very
24:05
Speaker 1: significant and ps. Everything Joe Scott Morgan said was correct.
24:09
Speaker 1: It just wasn't about the ligature. It was about the
24:14
Speaker 1: neck and the brain. So if you have anything relevant
24:19
Speaker 1: to say, Joe Scott, this would be the time because
24:23
Speaker 1: once Max starts is.
24:25
Speaker 7: Over, well, I gotta tell you.
24:32
Speaker 1: He's holding it in. He's holding it in here it comes.
24:35
Speaker 7: I do know this about BTK dog catcher killer, his nomdagere.
24:43
Speaker 7: I know that he had a secret hiding place in
24:47
Speaker 7: his home where he kept all manner of items that
24:51
Speaker 7: were there. And yes, if there were things he would
24:54
Speaker 7: go back to fantasize with, perhaps because he had a
24:57
Speaker 7: rich fantasy life. Maybe bindings we're in there, and to
25:01
Speaker 7: have the specificity of a particular knot that he would tie,
25:05
Speaker 7: and he would tie it over and over and over again.
25:09
Speaker 7: And also the material that has used, Nancy, is it
25:12
Speaker 7: a rope as opposed to a panty hose? Is it
25:14
Speaker 7: a belt opposed to something else that can be utilized?
25:18
Speaker 7: All of it goes back to a specific and these
25:21
Speaker 7: are his tools, all right. It goes back to a
25:24
Speaker 7: specific tool that is his choice. And what you're going
25:27
Speaker 7: to look for are going to be patterns that are developing.
25:30
Speaker 7: What did they recover off those bodies and what do
25:32
Speaker 7: they recover off the scene? That's why I'm fascinated by
25:35
Speaker 7: this item that they found out there. Was it actually tied?
25:38
Speaker 7: And what was the style of the knot?
25:40
Speaker 1: Oh? You know what, you's go a great thought, you said,
25:44
Speaker 1: rope versus panty hose? I wonder, and I'm sure the
25:48
Speaker 1: answer is out there. Did he use panty hose every time?
25:53
Speaker 1: He in some manner? I don't think he did, But
25:57
Speaker 1: did he ever use panta.
25:58
Speaker 6: I think he used in a many cases whatever was available.
26:02
Speaker 1: You're right.
26:02
Speaker 6: He would grab whatever was there, telephone wires and type.
26:06
Speaker 1: Yes, you're right, you're right, Karen Stark, Okay, Ryl mccoum.
26:09
Speaker 1: I was just trying to make a connection between the
26:11
Speaker 1: pantyhose and other ligatures and other killings and other binding.
26:16
Speaker 2: He absolutely used panty hose in more than one case.
26:20
Speaker 2: There's no doubt about that.
26:22
Speaker 1: I bet you if I dug up your backyard, I
26:23
Speaker 1: wouldn't find a ligature pair of panty hose.
26:26
Speaker 2: That's a whole nother podcast, y'all. But what was fascinating
26:31
Speaker 2: to me about this case. If you watched the sheriff
26:34
Speaker 2: when he came on TV, he held that ligature up.
26:38
Speaker 2: He did that on purpose. Dennis Raider watches TV. He's
26:44
Speaker 2: watching and the sheriff knew it. So he's talking directly
26:48
Speaker 2: to him, and he wanted him to know a couple
26:50
Speaker 2: of things. We found your heidie hole. We found this ligature,
26:55
Speaker 2: and to Nancy's points, she's absolutely right. In most scenes
26:59
Speaker 2: he I'm tied at least five different knots, So that
27:03
Speaker 2: ligature is going to be crucial intelligence for us to understand.
27:08
Speaker 2: Is this tithe the exact same way. It's about this
27:12
Speaker 2: big enough for a wrist or an ankle.
27:16
Speaker 1: That's part of his mo Oh, I like that? When
27:19
Speaker 1: I say I like it, of course I don't like it.
27:22
Speaker 1: I find it probative?
27:24
Speaker 2: Correct?
27:25
Speaker 1: Can it prove something? Because frankly, nothing else matters after
27:31
Speaker 1: you go through law school and try a lot of cases,
27:34
Speaker 1: and Bremner everything is what does it prove? I was
27:40
Speaker 1: asked the other day do you believe in mediums? And
27:43
Speaker 1: I said, as far as I'm concerned, no, because I
27:46
Speaker 1: can't put it in front of a jury. Unless I
27:49
Speaker 1: can put it in front of a jury, how is
27:52
Speaker 1: it helping me advance the case? She's absolutely right. And
27:56
Speaker 1: Jackie just sent me a text, and you're right, Jackie.
27:59
Speaker 1: May we could look at the ligature and compare it
28:02
Speaker 1: to the pictures that that idiot took himself of the
28:07
Speaker 1: crime scene and any other photos that were taken by
28:11
Speaker 1: police as they processed a scene, and compare that ligature.
28:15
Speaker 1: What about that?
28:15
Speaker 2: You're right, jack no question. And we know that not
28:18
Speaker 2: only did he use pantyhose, he used his own belt.
28:22
Speaker 2: And again you see these patterns, you hear Nancy and
28:25
Speaker 2: I talk all the time. Patterns matter. She'll say, if
28:28
Speaker 2: you want to know about a racehorse, look at his
28:31
Speaker 2: track record. It's the same thing. You've got somebody who
28:34
Speaker 2: took victim's clothing and recreated those scenes and made polaroid
28:41
Speaker 2: pictures of himself in the position of the victim. He
28:45
Speaker 2: could not know that unless he was at that scene.
28:48
Speaker 1: Okay. An Bremner, who has tried so many cases, including homicides,
28:56
Speaker 1: jump in.
28:56
Speaker 8: I'm in a homicide trial right now. I go back
28:59
Speaker 8: in on Monday. I'm defending a police officer. There's three
29:02
Speaker 8: officers charged in a case where they shouldn't be. It's
29:06
Speaker 8: a political case. But evidence, like Nancy said, is so important.
29:10
Speaker 8: What can you prove, what can he get in front
29:12
Speaker 8: of a jury, what's going to really pull up their heartstrings?
29:15
Speaker 8: What's going to make them connect with your client or
29:17
Speaker 8: your case. I mean, Nancy's a wonderful prosecutor, and what
29:20
Speaker 8: she's done best as a prosecutor is like she does here,
29:23
Speaker 8: connect with people, humanized witnesses, make sure that the jury
29:29
Speaker 8: feels the case and will go your way. And the
29:32
Speaker 8: fact that you've got the best story of what happened
29:34
Speaker 8: and the fact that it's true. It's got to be true.
29:37
Speaker 8: Everything has to ring true. And so I've learned a
29:40
Speaker 8: ton from Nancy over the years. We all love her,
29:43
Speaker 8: but I'm just so grateful I've learned from her and
29:46
Speaker 8: try to trying a case from the heart.
29:48
Speaker 1: So we love Nancy. Thank you. Just try to think
29:52
Speaker 1: about how we're going to connect these people. Karen Starker,
29:56
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in what you say about his psychology
30:01
Speaker 1: and his psychopathy because there's so many things you can predict. Right,
30:07
Speaker 1: here's an example. Let's go back to Scott Peterson, because
30:09
Speaker 1: he's such a rich example. He would go back to
30:14
Speaker 1: the scene and look out over San Francisco Bay. What
30:18
Speaker 1: was he looking for Lacy's body to pop up? Brian Coburger,
30:24
Speaker 1: who is now facing trial for the murder of four
30:30
Speaker 1: beautiful University Idaho students, some of them in their sleep,
30:35
Speaker 1: just slaughter, slaughter. That next morning when police were all
30:41
Speaker 1: there there, it goes Coburger's white Elantra. He's just circling
30:45
Speaker 1: back to look at his handiwork. And it happens all
30:50
Speaker 1: the time. Why, I'm not sure, what is that? Why
30:53
Speaker 1: do people go back.
30:54
Speaker 6: To their ego? Nancy they're very proud. Let's think about
30:58
Speaker 6: bt K. I mean, he was a set with the
31:00
Speaker 6: newspapers because they were not covering his story. And he
31:05
Speaker 6: actually said, I should be known by now. How many
31:08
Speaker 6: people do I have to kill in order for you
31:11
Speaker 6: to pay attention to me? He gave himself that moniker
31:15
Speaker 6: the BTK. He was all about his narcissism, his accomplishments.
31:21
Speaker 6: He planned these out like they were movies. He directed
31:26
Speaker 6: them in his mind, and he planned them for months.
31:29
Speaker 6: He was very methodical, and then he would go back.
31:32
Speaker 6: He would commit the crimes. Sometimes he would actually even
31:35
Speaker 6: go back to the scene he thought he left something.
31:38
Speaker 6: He took incredible risks.
31:54
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, we are taking your questions?
32:00
Speaker 1: Can Jackie? Can we take questions now? Okay, so let's
32:04
Speaker 1: see where's the beautiful lady taking questions? And John Torrensia?
32:08
Speaker 1: Were you still here skulking about John? Because I expect
32:13
Speaker 1: you to have a question. There you go, right there,
32:17
Speaker 1: here's a question.
32:18
Speaker 9: My first question was how you the victim or.
32:29
Speaker 2: Teacher? And question was and I as.
32:45
Speaker 1: There, I really be honored. This is how I did
32:54
Speaker 1: do it. Since a purp can look like anything, they
32:58
Speaker 1: can be white, they can be as they can be Asian,
33:01
Speaker 1: they can be black. It can be a man, it
33:02
Speaker 1: can be a woman. They may have on a fake
33:04
Speaker 1: police outfit. They could be a guy dressed up like
33:08
Speaker 1: the Meta reader. It could be anybody. It could be
33:13
Speaker 1: your teacher. I'm not gonna tell them that. I think
33:17
Speaker 1: I was the one that was the most scared. Did
33:19
Speaker 1: I ever tell anybody about when John David went missing
33:23
Speaker 1: and the Babies Are a superstore? Quit shaking your head,
33:27
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. I can see you believe it or not. Okay,
33:30
Speaker 1: I'll tell you. I was looking because some suck herm
33:36
Speaker 1: hum made me feel bad because she made her own
33:41
Speaker 1: organic sunscreen. This is real. I'm not making this up.
33:47
Speaker 1: This happened. I'm like, she said, all that stuff you
33:49
Speaker 1: can puting on the twins gives some cancer. I'm like,
33:53
Speaker 1: So I go to the Babies Are a superstore and
33:55
Speaker 1: they've got shelves Florida ceiling practically, and I'm way down
33:59
Speaker 1: at the bottom looking for organic sunscreen. I turned around
34:02
Speaker 1: and there's Lucy. But know John David. All I could
34:05
Speaker 1: think about is my friend John Walsh an Adam who
34:09
Speaker 1: goes missing? Was it in a sears like two rows
34:13
Speaker 1: over from his mom. Reeve at what happened. I put
34:18
Speaker 1: Lucy under my arm like a football and started running
34:22
Speaker 1: and screaming, look the doors. That is missing. Okay I
34:25
Speaker 1: found him. He was hiding two rows away. But those
34:30
Speaker 1: were the worst moments of my life. So you asked me,
34:35
Speaker 1: how do you handle being a victim? I don't. It's
34:40
Speaker 1: affected everything about me. I've been told my personality is
34:43
Speaker 1: completely different than what it used to be. I don't
34:46
Speaker 1: even remember that girl. I don't know what that even
34:48
Speaker 1: was anymore. But you know what, here, I am right
34:52
Speaker 1: now making the best of it. Bam. Okay.
34:58
Speaker 3: Question okay, does sexual trauma.
35:14
Speaker 9: Change do you as you should shoot?
35:43
Speaker 1: Okay? Number one. I believe that sensitivity training is just
35:49
Speaker 1: as important as training at the firing range, because think
35:55
Speaker 1: about it. Heck, yes, I want the cop to be
35:59
Speaker 1: able to shoot the bad guy if he's getting away.
36:01
Speaker 1: But how many more times a month, a week, a
36:06
Speaker 1: year will a cop interview a crime victim than he
36:10
Speaker 1: will shoot a fleeing felon About a million times more?
36:15
Speaker 3: So.
36:15
Speaker 1: Yes, I remember when I was interviewed before Keith's murder trial.
36:20
Speaker 1: I still remember it, not really in a good way.
36:25
Speaker 1: But it was the best that they knew how to do.
36:28
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying I'm absolutely not saying that cops
36:32
Speaker 1: are bad. I'm saying cops are good, but yes, you
36:36
Speaker 1: need training to handle that. For instance, when I would
36:41
Speaker 1: interview child victims for trial, I would say, well, I
36:45
Speaker 1: have to prove when where is it in my jurisdiction?
36:49
Speaker 1: Is a statute past?
36:50
Speaker 5: All?
36:51
Speaker 1: That is important? And the chaw may not be able
36:53
Speaker 1: to tell me it was April to fifteenth, blah blah
36:56
Speaker 1: blah Okay, So I would say something like, well where
37:00
Speaker 1: the Christmas decorations up? Did you have a Christmas tree up?
37:03
Speaker 1: Or was it around your birthday? Or was it hot outside?
37:08
Speaker 1: Or just a million ways to unlock the truth of
37:12
Speaker 1: their story, and that took I never didn't have training,
37:16
Speaker 1: but it took some doing to figure out their language.
37:21
Speaker 1: So yes, sensitivity training and number two, how help I
37:26
Speaker 1: can tell you this much? My twins and I and
37:29
Speaker 1: my husband went to the Butterfly House at Callaway Gardens. Okay.
37:37
Speaker 1: At the Butterfly House, we also went to lunch at
37:40
Speaker 1: the Oyster Box, which is I think in Pine Mountain, Georgia,
37:45
Speaker 1: and there on the bathroom stall window, I mean door
37:51
Speaker 1: was a flyer from missing I took a picture of
37:55
Speaker 1: it and we helped that family get answers the missing person.
38:02
Speaker 1: Anything you can do a flyer, a tip line, we
38:07
Speaker 1: jack what's our tips at crimeonline dot com. Any story,
38:14
Speaker 1: anything you need help. I look at Twitter all the time,
38:18
Speaker 1: not because I want to read all the ugly things
38:20
Speaker 1: on there, like your men, you're off, oh blah blah blah.
38:24
Speaker 1: I'm looking for cases, unsolved cases, people that need help.
38:29
Speaker 1: You would be surprised, don't you guys agree? How we
38:33
Speaker 1: find out about cases that need our help and not
38:37
Speaker 1: just US police as well. And believe me, you know
38:42
Speaker 1: what politicians do care about getting re elected. That's what
38:47
Speaker 1: they care about. And if you contact them and talk
38:51
Speaker 1: about your grassroots effort to get them thrown out, if
38:53
Speaker 1: they don't pay attention to XYZ, that's the only way
38:57
Speaker 1: they're gonna listen, do it. You guys, have any ideas?
39:02
Speaker 1: You're shaking your head, yes, jump in.
39:05
Speaker 2: I agree with you one hundred percent.
39:06
Speaker 1: No, no, no, not what she said. Your own idea
39:09
Speaker 1: for once? Come on, have your own original idea. How
39:13
Speaker 1: can they help? They want to out?
39:14
Speaker 2: Look at this room I'm gonna tell you straight up,
39:17
Speaker 2: you're already doing it. You're here, you're meeting people. I've
39:21
Speaker 2: seen so many people taking pictures of the caravan car
39:25
Speaker 2: and you're posting it. You're talking to other family members,
39:29
Speaker 2: Gabby Petito's families here. I've seen y'all taking pictures and
39:32
Speaker 2: you're posting it. So you're helping. Nancy started in domestic violence.
39:37
Speaker 2: I started at the Rape Crisis Center. So those grassroots,
39:40
Speaker 2: those base level, you know, trainings and volunteer efforts, that's
39:45
Speaker 2: the most important thing. But y'all being here, y'all talking
39:48
Speaker 2: about it, keeping these cases alive are the most important things.
39:53
Speaker 2: Nancy and I used to, you know, train at the
39:55
Speaker 2: police Academy together. And I remember one time when we
39:58
Speaker 2: were having a real hard time getting the young officers
40:01
Speaker 2: to understand just because somebody says something about your mama,
40:06
Speaker 2: you can't hit her. And they were like, Mac, you're
40:10
Speaker 2: telling me if somebody says my mama is blank, I
40:14
Speaker 2: can't hit her. And I said, not legally, you can't
40:18
Speaker 2: do it.
40:19
Speaker 1: And this not unless you want to be on the
40:21
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray seanas.
40:21
Speaker 2: You want to be on the Nancy Gray Show. So
40:24
Speaker 2: I finally told him, I said.
40:25
Speaker 1: Look, it is not in a nutshell, Cheryl.
40:28
Speaker 2: There's the nutshell.
40:29
Speaker 1: I said.
40:30
Speaker 2: It is not illegal to be a bitch. It is
40:33
Speaker 2: illegal to hit one. Thank you. I'm here all week.
40:40
Speaker 1: Wrists shot right there, Stop calling.
40:45
Speaker 10: Than sheerk wants a new hole full the glorifial And second,
41:00
Speaker 10: yeah and wind held all.
41:13
Speaker 1: That is a really good idea. You know, he tortured
41:18
Speaker 1: those animals, you know he did?
41:20
Speaker 2: Can I jump in tell him?
41:22
Speaker 1: Tom Karen Starr.
41:23
Speaker 6: He admits to it, Nancy. He actually he self reports
41:29
Speaker 6: that he tortured animals, and they do believe that he
41:32
Speaker 6: did that as a dog catcher, that he actually euthanized
41:36
Speaker 6: dogs that didn't need to be killed. And I wouldn't
41:39
Speaker 6: put him past it. He actually exercised his fingers, imagine
41:45
Speaker 6: that with a ball, so he could be strong enough
41:48
Speaker 6: to strangle. So yeah, I would think that he would
41:52
Speaker 6: do that with dogs.
41:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wanted to tell you A couple of
41:56
Speaker 1: us on the panel met his daughter. She's a man
42:01
Speaker 1: also in case you're wondering, he was a crap dad
42:06
Speaker 1: and husband, aggressive, abusive, awful as you might imagine, horrible, horrible. Yes, yes,
42:32
Speaker 1: I said her name at the get go, there's several.
42:35
Speaker 1: There's Cynthia don Kenny. Shaunabeth Garber was the second name
42:38
Speaker 1: I mentioned. PJ. Prairie from Hayes, Kansas, an unsolved murder
42:43
Speaker 1: in Kansas that's being referred to as Project Bell and
42:47
Speaker 1: Oklahoma case number two. And I believe these are just
42:50
Speaker 1: the tip of the iceberg. So yes, and her case,
42:53
Speaker 1: in my mind you're talking about Shawna's case is very strong, Nicole.
42:58
Speaker 1: Do you know about Shawna's Kay.
43:00
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do.
43:01
Speaker 1: Hit it.
43:01
Speaker 4: So she was discovered behind a barn, and again we
43:05
Speaker 4: have sketches of these barns in Raider's journal.
43:10
Speaker 1: She was discovered in Missouri.
43:11
Speaker 4: She's a young lady who didn't receive a lot of
43:13
Speaker 4: coverage because she had aged out of foster care. She
43:17
Speaker 4: didn't have a family, so she was kind of an
43:19
Speaker 4: unknown young lady. But she was found severely sexually abused,
43:25
Speaker 4: bound in five ways by five different ligatures. And there's
43:29
Speaker 4: a strong connection, it's believed, between Shaunabeth Garber and Dennis Rader.
43:34
Speaker 1: Don't think that we forgot about her, But I'm glad
43:37
Speaker 1: you mentioned her because I started about Cindy and then
43:42
Speaker 1: never made it beyond that. So you're absolutely right. And
43:46
Speaker 1: I don't like when we just say the victims they
43:49
Speaker 1: have names. Let's just say one more time, Cindy, Don Kenny, Shawna,
43:55
Speaker 1: Beth Garber, PJ Prairie Project, Bell, and the Oklahoma case
44:00
Speaker 1: number two. I mean really, In Shawna's case, he draws
44:05
Speaker 1: pictures of the barn where her remains are found behind
44:09
Speaker 1: that that's not a coincidence. Thank you,