Latest / DEEP INSIGHT / Should Canada publicly call out foreign meddling in Alberta’s referendum

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Should Canada publicly call out foreign meddling in Alberta’s referendum · DEEP INSIGHT

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  Speaker 1: I think we need to spend less time worrying about
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  Speaker 1: silly tweets by people who have no power over what
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  Speaker 1: Canadians do. Canadians control their own destiny. Conservative Party leader
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  Speaker 1: Pierre Palliev weighs in on the threat of foreign interference
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  Speaker 1: in Canada with a similar message as the Prime Minister.
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  Speaker 1: When asked about posts by Elon Musk calling on multiple
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  Speaker 1: provinces to separate, both said it's up to Canadians to
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  Speaker 1: decide their own future. Now, Musk posts follow a wave
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  Speaker 1: of reports this summer of foreign threats to Canada's elections,
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  Speaker 1: including an allegation that Republican operatives have provided assistance to
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  Speaker 1: Alberta separatists inside the province. But with the Alberta referendum
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  Speaker 1: just 10 days away, how big of a risk does
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  Speaker 1: all of this pose? Well, Jody Thomas is the former
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  Speaker 1: National Security Advisor to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, and she
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  Speaker 1: joins me now. Jody Thomas, thank you for your time.
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  Speaker 2: It's good to see you again. It's nice to see
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  Speaker 2: you too, David.
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  Speaker 1: We've seen these reports of Russian interference, U.S. interference on
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  Speaker 1: this upcoming referendum in Alberta, the CSIS warning of possible
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  Speaker 1: interference in the Quebec election. How concerned should we be
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  Speaker 1: about the risks right now with this important vote coming up?
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  Speaker 3: So I think Canadians should always be concerned about foreign interference.
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  Speaker 3: We know that it happens. We know that it's always happened.
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  Speaker 3: Just the tools and the techniques have changed. And so
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  Speaker 3: I think an informed electorate has to be aware that
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  Speaker 3: this could happen, and they have to be aware of
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  Speaker 3: what they're being told, what they're reading, what is happening
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  Speaker 3: in the digital domain to try and influence them.
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  Speaker 1: How do we deal with that, though? Because, like, I
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  Speaker 1: look at Elon Musk. I don't think Elon Musk's tweet
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  Speaker 1: is going to change a single mind in Canada. But
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  Speaker 1: the control of the algorithms for a platform like Twitter might, right?
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  Speaker 1: Because of, depending on what is amplified and what is suppressed,
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  Speaker 1: And this can spread across all kinds of digital platforms
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  Speaker 1: that remain outside of the control of a foreign registry,
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  Speaker 1: the legislative capacity of the Canadian government. So how do
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  Speaker 1: we know what's happening there when everybody has a different
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  Speaker 1: algorithm and how do we guard against it?
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  Speaker 3: So that is the question I think for today and
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  Speaker 3: for the future is in terms of how do we
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  Speaker 3: manage disinformation and misinformation?
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  Speaker 2: Where is it coming from? Is it state-sponsored?
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  Speaker 3: Or is it just individuals and bots being malevolent? And
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  Speaker 3: so that is the role and the job of our
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  Speaker 3: security agencies, and they do it very well. During elections,
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  Speaker 3: we've talked about it here. We have the panel of five,
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  Speaker 3: and we have the site team that focuses where it's
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  Speaker 3: looking or focuses its efforts on looking for signs of
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  Speaker 3: state-sponsored violence messaging, interference, and bots, and then calling it
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  Speaker 3: out when it happens, and deciding whether calling it out
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  Speaker 3: at the time would then further.
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  Speaker 2: Influence the outcome of an election. It's really difficult.
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  Speaker 3: It's not an easy decision to make, and their job
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  Speaker 3: is to not only look for it, but to inform
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  Speaker 3: political masters and senior personnel so that they can decide
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  Speaker 3: what to do. The digital space, it's filled with noise
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  Speaker 3: and it's filled with garbage.
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  Speaker 2: And understanding the difference between.
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  Speaker 3: What's real and what isn't is a monumental task. The
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  Speaker 3: difference here in what we're seeing is that it's not covert.
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  Speaker 3: It's not interference necessarily.
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  Speaker 2: It's influence. And the two are getting a little blurred.
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  Speaker 2: And influence from.
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  Speaker 3: potentially Republican operatives or people connected to the Republican Party
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  Speaker 3: is really outside democratic norms.
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  Speaker 2: We haven't experienced that.
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  Speaker 3: In the past where very overtly people have tried to
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  Speaker 3: affect the outcome of an election either by giving information
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  Speaker 3: or providing misinformation or giving tools and advice to people,
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  Speaker 3: you know, in this case, looking to separate Alberta from Canada.
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  Speaker 1: But this is where I wonder, you're right, like there
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  Speaker 1: are laws and rules and then there are norms, right?
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  Speaker 1: And the norms are getting trampled at a speed and
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  Speaker 1: a scale that I don't think most people truly grasp
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  Speaker 1: in their day to day. And we've had the foreign
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  Speaker 1: interference inquiry, which is a little bit backward looking in
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  Speaker 1: some respects that really what China was up to, what
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  Speaker 1: India was up to, never really dealt with the United States. Now,
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  Speaker 1: maybe because Joe Biden was in the White House at
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  Speaker 1: the time. But we're in a different world now, and
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  Speaker 1: the algorithms were in the front row at the inauguration,
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  Speaker 1: and they're always at the White House. I mean, are
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  Speaker 1: we equipped to deal with what emerges from that changing
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  Speaker 1: dynamic in the U.S.? I'm not so sure we are.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I'll start by saying that our security agencies, when
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  Speaker 3: they are looking for interference and they're looking.
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  Speaker 2: For malevolent actors, are state agnostic. Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 3: That it's coming from the United States or it's coming
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  Speaker 3: from another country is irrelevant to them.
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  Speaker 2: What they do is.
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  Speaker 3: Look for it and try and call it out, try
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  Speaker 3: and investigate it further, get evidence out of their intelligence.
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  Speaker 2: Dealing with a colleague, an ally.
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  Speaker 3: in terms of what they are doing to try and
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  Speaker 3: influence the outcome of a democratic event in this country
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  Speaker 3: is certainly unusual for us.
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  Speaker 2: And it's not the norm.
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  Speaker 3: And I think what it will do is cause an
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  Speaker 3: after action report where we start to look at what
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  Speaker 3: do we do now? We've looked for covert activity. Now
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  Speaker 3: we're seeing overt activity. We're seeing influence rather.
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  Speaker 2: Than just interference. And do we need to change our laws?
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  Speaker 3: Do we need to change our approach? Are we going
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  Speaker 3: to publicize this more?
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  Speaker 2: Are we going to publicly.
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  Speaker 3: Say This is influence from the United States, and here
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  Speaker 3: is the reality, here is the truth of the matter
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  Speaker 3: in any scenario. Calling out mis- and disinformation and calling
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  Speaker 3: out influence is going to become as critical as calling
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  Speaker 3: out and prosecuting and pursuing interference.
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  Speaker 1: Calling out the U.S. at this moment in time would
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  Speaker 1: be a very difficult political calculation for any government to make, right?
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  Speaker 1: And when you... So, I mean, what would even go
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  Speaker 1: into something like that? If someone who's advised prime ministers
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  Speaker 1: and senior officials on these, how would you even approach
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  Speaker 1: it in a moment like this?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think that what you have to do is, A,
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  Speaker 3: inform the Alberta government, because it is their referendum, and
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  Speaker 3: ensure that the briefings have happened and CSIS can now
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  Speaker 3: do that. Those laws were changed to allow for an
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  Speaker 3: easier exchange of information with the provinces. I think you
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  Speaker 3: also have to separate... official U.S. versus influencers and operatives.
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  Speaker 3: And there is no indication that this is coming from.
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  Speaker 2: The White House.
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  Speaker 3: People meeting in the White House, as has been reported,
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  Speaker 3: is different than.
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  Speaker 2: It being the White House itself officially.
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  Speaker 3: And so you work with the people and the colleagues
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  Speaker 3: we have in the United States who understand the sanctity
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  Speaker 3: of elections to try and stop this behavior and talk
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  Speaker 3: about the behavior in a very calm manner, as I
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  Speaker 3: think the Prime Minister has done, indicating that Canadians are
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  Speaker 3: going to make this decision. What we've seen reported about
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  Speaker 3: people from the separation parties in Alberta going to the
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  Speaker 3: United States and making offers of things that they cannot
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  Speaker 3: offer and receiving information and deals that the people offering
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  Speaker 3: the deals have no authority to make. It's just part
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  Speaker 3: of the noise. And so I think it's important to
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  Speaker 3: be very clear about what is possible and what isn't
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  Speaker 3: possible so that people understand. If somebody is saying to
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  Speaker 3: you that, oh, we're going to build a pipeline to
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  Speaker 3: the United States and we'll be able to do this
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  Speaker 3: more cheaply, more quickly if we separate.
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  Speaker 2: The facts have to be laid out in a way that.
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  Speaker 2: Is more difficult in the digital environment, but that is
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  Speaker 2: black and white and clear.
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  Speaker 3: These people are not speaking for Alberta, they're not speaking
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  Speaker 3: for Canada, and the people they're talking to are not
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  Speaker 3: speaking for the United States either.
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  Speaker 1: Right, and that may all be empirically true, but people
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  Speaker 1: may not view it that way. And this is the challenge, right?
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  Speaker 1: You say the facts need to be laid out, but
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  Speaker 1: we're in an age, Jody Thomas, where people just argue
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  Speaker 1: over what is a fact and what is the truth, right?
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  Speaker 1: And while it may not be the White House, there
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  Speaker 1: is this continuum... of Donald Trump saying it should be
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  Speaker 1: a state, Scott Besson saying Alberta would make a great state.
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  Speaker 1: Look at that. And then they talk to these influencers,
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  Speaker 1: and then they have the billionaires who own the AI
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  Speaker 1: companies and the tech companies, and the misinformation and disinformation
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  Speaker 1: floods those platforms, and, you know, polluting sort of the
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  Speaker 1: bloodstream of the information economy. And that's what I wonder about, right? Like,
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  Speaker 1: I get that CSIS and others, if they find a
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  Speaker 1: bad actor, they will name it and point to it.
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  Speaker 1: But this broader pollution... of our understanding of what is true,
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  Speaker 1: what is reality, how the country works, and what's really
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  Speaker 1: at stake, I'm not sure this is what we're equipped
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  Speaker 1: as a country to deal with. And certainly no Elections
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  Speaker 1: Canada or Elections Alberta or anyone with no aspersions on them,
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  Speaker 1: they don't have the capacity to fight back against that.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, how does the national government approach that challenge?
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  Speaker 1: Because that, I think, is a real threat to our
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  Speaker 1: democracy going forward.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, I agree. It's a threat to the democracy going forward.
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  Speaker 3: And it affects social cohesion. It affects the very fundamentals
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  Speaker 3: of belief in democracy. In the case of Alberta, I
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  Speaker 3: think that the federal government has to be very careful
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  Speaker 3: in terms of its messaging.
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  Speaker 2: What they can do is pass on information.
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  Speaker 3: To the Alberta government so that the Alberta government can
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  Speaker 3: speak to its own citizens about what is truth and
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  Speaker 3: what isn't truth.
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  Speaker 2: And it's just going to be a continual cycle of that.
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  Speaker 3: And it gets very difficult in an election because you
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  Speaker 3: don't want to be seen as the federal government to.
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  Speaker 2: Be influencing one way or the other.
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  Speaker 3: But the reality is, is that the digital platforms, the
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  Speaker 3: digital space is more and more affected by mis- and disinformation.
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  Speaker 2: And so while no federal government wants.
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  Speaker 3: To be the arbiter of truth, speaking about it is
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  Speaker 3: going to be more necessary than ever.
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  Speaker 2: Has been before.
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  Speaker 3: And when we do see overt interference, doing something about
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  Speaker 3: it as quickly as possible. Demersing the ambassador if necessary,
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  Speaker 3: moving from an investigation to a criminal investigation with the RCMP,
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  Speaker 3: speaking to the State Department, speaking to the.
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  Speaker 2: White House, and then most fundamentally speaking to Canadians.
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  Speaker 1: Just a quick final point. I'm less concerned on a
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  Speaker 1: personal level about an election getting hacked, just multiple parties,
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  Speaker 1: different regions. You know, it's hard to engineer an outcome.
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  Speaker 1: Referendums are binary. They're yes, no. And we saw this
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  Speaker 1: with Brexit. You see with the American election, which is
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  Speaker 1: a binary. What is your level of concern going? Maybe
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  Speaker 1: not this referendum in Alberta, but should they get to
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  Speaker 1: the real one? That's where the potential or in Quebec
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  Speaker 1: for it really to come into play.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think that there's going to have to be
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  Speaker 3: a complete strategy working with the provinces, of.
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  Speaker 2: Course, should we get to the point where there are
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  Speaker 2: a referendum.
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  Speaker 3: And we'll have to talk about what is made public
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  Speaker 3: in a different manner. And that gets very difficult because
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  Speaker 3: we know CSIS is limited by pretty narrow law, but
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  Speaker 3: And there is always the concern that by coming forward,
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  Speaker 3: you're going to have, you're going to influence the outcome
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  Speaker 3: in a different manner. But I think we're going to,
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  Speaker 3: the rules of the game change. And I think you're
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  Speaker 3: exactly right that when the question is binary, the mis
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  Speaker 3: and disinformation out there, the attempt to influence, the attempt.
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  Speaker 2: To interfere will be completely different.
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  Speaker 3: And this is going to be a facet of our
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  Speaker 3: democracy going forward, not necessarily from democracy, The United States.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that at all.
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  Speaker 1: But from everywhere.
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  Speaker 2: From everywhere. Absolutely. And so awareness is knowledge and knowledge
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  Speaker 2: is power.
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  Speaker 3: And what we have to do is make sure that
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  Speaker 3: the Canadian population is aware of what's going on in
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  Speaker 3: that space and do our best to try and counter it.
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  Speaker 2: And it may.
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  Speaker 3: Require changes to the Elections Act. It may require changes
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  Speaker 3: to what CSIS and the RCMP can do. It will
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  Speaker 3: require changes with how we communicate with the provinces and municipalities.
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  Speaker 3: And it will require us working together as a democratic, free,
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  Speaker 3: democratic nation differently.
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  Speaker 1: Jody Thomas, former National Security Advisor to former Prime Minister
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  Speaker 1: Justin Trudeau. We appreciate the time. Thanks for joining us today.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you.