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Attachment Styles in Women · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
0:07
Speaker 1: I never told your production of iHeart Radio. Okay, is
0:20
Speaker 1: there a moment in your childhood where you knew or
0:25
Speaker 1: that had the memory of realizing that your mom, what's
0:29
Speaker 1: someone that you could completely depend on. That's a good question.
0:38
Speaker 1: I have a memory of I was involved in a car,
0:43
Speaker 1: a pretty serious car accident when I was four years old.
0:47
Speaker 1: I was a hit and run. And after that, I
0:50
Speaker 1: had like all these medical issues and I remember once
0:52
Speaker 1: in middle of the night, like I was having trouble
0:53
Speaker 1: breathing and my mom just was there and was holding
0:58
Speaker 1: me and took me to the hospital. And I remember
1:00
Speaker 1: thinking in that moment like this is a person who
1:02
Speaker 1: is looking out for me and who's going to be
1:05
Speaker 1: there for me, And it was just like, I don't know,
1:07
Speaker 1: I just have that of her holding me and feeling like, Okay,
1:10
Speaker 1: this is gonna be okay, because I was kind of
1:12
Speaker 1: panicking before that, So maybe that Yeah, that's a good memory.
1:18
Speaker 1: And the reason I asked is today we are going
1:20
Speaker 1: to go down this very vast road in different studies
1:26
Speaker 1: of attachment and attachment theories and attachment disorders and how
1:30
Speaker 1: they relate to women and even in women's relationships in general,
1:34
Speaker 1: and of course if you don't know much about the
1:37
Speaker 1: attachment theory as well as all of the studies behind it,
1:41
Speaker 1: there's a lot of emphasis on mothers and maternal connections,
1:47
Speaker 1: especially when you go to the original idea. And it's
1:50
Speaker 1: funny because you and I were talking about we're gonna
1:52
Speaker 1: record this episode, and I was talking about how difficult
1:55
Speaker 1: some of this resource was and how very vastly different
1:58
Speaker 1: the theories can be, as well as the fact that
2:00
Speaker 1: some of the older studies, much like what we talked
2:03
Speaker 1: about with our book club inferior, it was really problematic
2:07
Speaker 1: because they were not necessarily completely just scientific, especially a
2:10
Speaker 1: lot more misogynistic ideas and the lack of research when
2:15
Speaker 1: it came to women and girls in general. But I
2:20
Speaker 1: thought it was fascinating because as we were talking about it,
2:23
Speaker 1: you were like, I'm afraid this is going to be
2:24
Speaker 1: one of those moments where I'm gonna be like, oh,
2:26
Speaker 1: that's me, this is me, And I'm like I had
2:29
Speaker 1: many of those moments myself, which is also why I
2:33
Speaker 1: find this subject really fascinating because as a person who
2:36
Speaker 1: has worked in the field for so long as well
2:39
Speaker 1: as someone who has gone through a lot of trauma,
2:42
Speaker 1: especially in my early childhood, especially when it came to
2:45
Speaker 1: caregivers and people in my life. Yeah, I'm like, well,
2:49
Speaker 1: this could be me and me and me, and not
2:52
Speaker 1: that it's something to joke about, but something that has
2:54
Speaker 1: brought out was the fact that my social work of
2:57
Speaker 1: friends and myself will talk about the fact that probably
3:00
Speaker 1: should have been diagnosed with an attachment disorder as a kid.
3:04
Speaker 1: But this is fairly new ish in itself as a conversation.
3:09
Speaker 1: So I thought it was interesting and I wanted to
3:12
Speaker 1: know if you had that moment in your life when
3:14
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, my mom is here. This is what
3:16
Speaker 1: I know. She's the charagiver. I know that she's my
3:18
Speaker 1: safety net because for me, I don't technically have one
3:22
Speaker 1: of those moments. So yeah, we're gonna get into it,
3:26
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be a little all over the place.
3:28
Speaker 1: So yeah, go ahead and put that. There's no real
3:30
Speaker 1: trigger warning, even though there's a lot of scientific ideas
3:33
Speaker 1: behind this theory as well as a lot of sociological
3:37
Speaker 1: aspects to this, but it may make you start wondering
3:41
Speaker 1: about your own style and may trigger some things. So
3:45
Speaker 1: we'll put that in here. Yeah, I'm really fascinated by
3:50
Speaker 1: this because later in my life I had a reason
3:53
Speaker 1: to be concerned about abandonment, I guess, but early on
3:57
Speaker 1: I did it, and yet I would still like wait
4:00
Speaker 1: at the door, at the window, and my parents would
4:02
Speaker 1: even think, oh, they're never coming back. And I've always
4:04
Speaker 1: been curious about why that is, and so perhaps I
4:08
Speaker 1: will learn about today. So what are we talking about
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Speaker 1: when we say attachment? As defined by Marion Webster, attachment
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Speaker 1: is a strong emotional bond that an infant forms with
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Speaker 1: a caregiver such as a mother, especially when viewed as
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Speaker 1: a basis for normal emotional and social development. Also the
4:30
Speaker 1: process by which an infant forms such an emotional bond.
4:34
Speaker 1: Of course, this is very literal term when it comes
4:36
Speaker 1: to the psychology of attachment, right, And if you want
4:40
Speaker 1: to go through and look at all the research papers
4:43
Speaker 1: in different types of self help, I guess articles that
4:46
Speaker 1: are out there about this, they also call it an
4:48
Speaker 1: affection of bond as well, So it's kind of that level. Yeah,
4:52
Speaker 1: we're gonna keep going down again this rabbit hole, and
4:55
Speaker 1: I'm telling you it's a deep rabbit hole. And what
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Speaker 1: is the attachment? The Arry and how did this theory
5:01
Speaker 1: come to be? Attachment theory is defined as quote a
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Speaker 1: set of concepts that explained the emergence of an emotional
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Speaker 1: bond between an infant and a primary caregiver and the
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Speaker 1: way in which this bond affects the child's behavior and
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Speaker 1: emotional development into adulthood. And this is by dictionary dot com.
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Speaker 1: So the attachment theory was first studied by John Bulby,
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Speaker 1: a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst that worked at the Child Guyan
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Speaker 1: Clinic in London, and it was the nineteen fifty eight a.
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Speaker 1: Bulby proposed that the importance of a child's relationship to
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Speaker 1: its mother influences their social, emotional, and cognitive development. His
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Speaker 1: ideas centered around the concept of monotropy, which is based
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Speaker 1: on the idea that a child has to attach to
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Speaker 1: one main attachment figure, meaning there's one relationship that is
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Speaker 1: more important than others. And by the way, he was
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Speaker 1: actually one of those children growing up after being with
5:52
Speaker 1: his mother, was sent to boarding school and felt like
5:55
Speaker 1: this really disruptive sort of his attachment stuff. And this
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Speaker 1: is why he's also fascinated much like us. I'm like, oh,
6:01
Speaker 1: what's wrong with us? Let's look it up, and he
6:05
Speaker 1: was interested in learning again the level of separation, anxiety,
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Speaker 1: and distress children experience when they're no longer with their guardians.
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Speaker 1: He theorized that attachment was an evolutionary process and that
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Speaker 1: children were born with innate needs to form attachments with
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Speaker 1: their primary caregivers. He believed the most critical periods of
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Speaker 1: attachment development were the first two and a half years UM,
6:27
Speaker 1: but then he later changed that to the first five
6:30
Speaker 1: years of years of life. And by the way, he
6:32
Speaker 1: also said that if they weren't attached by the first
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Speaker 1: two and a half years, they never would and that
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Speaker 1: could cause criminal behavior. So his would whole further into
6:41
Speaker 1: the study, but we're not going to talk about that
6:43
Speaker 1: level yet. WHOA And according to a site that was
6:47
Speaker 1: looking into his work, quote, an internal working model is
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Speaker 1: a cognitive framework comprising mental representations for understanding the world,
6:55
Speaker 1: self and others, and it's based on the relationship with
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Speaker 1: the primary caregiver. It becomes a pro a type for
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Speaker 1: all future social relationships and allows individuals to predict, control,
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Speaker 1: and manipulate interactions with others. He identified some ideas of
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Speaker 1: characteristics of attachment, which included proximity, maintenance, being near people,
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Speaker 1: we are attached to, safe haven, being able to get
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Speaker 1: comfort and safety and threatening situations from an attachment figure,
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Speaker 1: secure base, the figure that the child can come back
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Speaker 1: to while exploring the surroundings um separation, distress, anxiety when
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Speaker 1: the figure is absent. But as we talked about earlier,
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Speaker 1: and we'll probably talk about all the way, because I
7:33
Speaker 1: really want to emphasize this point that as any real
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Speaker 1: good theories go, there are variations and conflicts that rose
7:41
Speaker 1: as time passed and more studies were conducted. And by
7:44
Speaker 1: the way, when we talk about more studies, we're talking
7:46
Speaker 1: about how they've delved into studies when it comes to abuse,
7:49
Speaker 1: when it comes to domestic violence, when it comes to
7:51
Speaker 1: drug use. So there's a plethora of conversations. Psychologist Mary
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Speaker 1: Ainsworth expanding on Boulby studies with hard work titled Strange Situations,
8:01
Speaker 1: which was a study in the nineteen seventies. She observed
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Speaker 1: children between the ages of twelve to eighteen months when
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Speaker 1: the guardians would lead for a short amount of time
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Speaker 1: and return, specifically the mothers, and there would be strangers present,
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Speaker 1: so she wanted to see this type of interaction. She
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Speaker 1: was able to identify specific styles of attachment, including secure, ambivalent, insecure,
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Speaker 1: and avoided insecure attachments which could affect behavior later in life,
8:26
Speaker 1: and in the eighties of fourth style was identified by
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Speaker 1: the researcher's main Solomon, known as the disorganized insecure attachment,
8:34
Speaker 1: and these studies continue today with more and more research
8:37
Speaker 1: being conducted not only in the world of psychology, but
8:39
Speaker 1: within the world of health care and other service fields.
8:43
Speaker 1: It heavily influences training and policies within the social welfare
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Speaker 1: systems and professions and has continued to be a topic
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Speaker 1: of discussion within the world of academia. But of course,
8:52
Speaker 1: with such large subject matter, with a lot of opinions
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Speaker 1: and different research, it comes with some controversy. In past,
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Speaker 1: misconceived attempts in trying to relearn or unlearned past traumatic
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Speaker 1: experiences as children has allowed for different methods of therapy
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Speaker 1: that are considered poorly thought out and based on inaccurate
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Speaker 1: evidence in its basis and overall research that it should
9:14
Speaker 1: be looked at with caution, as one stated that these
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Speaker 1: practices quote are not regarded as having any basis and
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Speaker 1: attachment theory and research. Besides using the word attachment in
9:24
Speaker 1: the title, yeah, some of these practices has actually caused death.
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Speaker 1: And what we're talking about is some of these children
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Speaker 1: who have been diagnosed with some of the severe disorders
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Speaker 1: like reactive attachment disorder, which we're going to talk about
9:35
Speaker 1: in a minute, but they would actually try to rebirth them,
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Speaker 1: and that practice was swaddling them with heavy cloth and
9:42
Speaker 1: trying to make them kind of push out out of
9:45
Speaker 1: the birth canal which is that cloth, but has killed
9:48
Speaker 1: people because they were ended up being suffocated or such.
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Speaker 1: And it's kind of all these levels of like this
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Speaker 1: is impractical, why would you do this? And some of
9:56
Speaker 1: these practices still happen illegally even though it has been
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Speaker 1: banned um, and it's not that's not the only ones.
10:02
Speaker 1: Of course, we talk about reparenting, which sounds like a
10:05
Speaker 1: good idea, but if it's not actually looked into and
10:09
Speaker 1: what therapeutic ideas are behind quote unquote reparenting, it can
10:13
Speaker 1: become very dangerous, especially if we're not looking and monitoring
10:16
Speaker 1: ptsd UM and triggers as well. So there's a whole
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Speaker 1: different level. But there's a lot of controversy about who
10:22
Speaker 1: wants to do what, not that it's all bad, but
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Speaker 1: it may be hard cost more harm than good and
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Speaker 1: those with the kind of the practices that we're talking
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Speaker 1: about when we say controversial. One thing that Bolby did
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Speaker 1: not account for, which again is not surprising for that time,
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Speaker 1: is gender. In a researcher named Tonison found that girls
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Speaker 1: were almost twice as often securely attached than boys, and
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Speaker 1: that the boys were two times more likely to be
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Speaker 1: categorized as avoidant and three times more likely to be
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Speaker 1: categorized as this organized. And yes, we're gonna explain what
10:54
Speaker 1: these are in a minute, but we just want ahead
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Speaker 1: and put these statistics out here. And unsurprisingly, insecure boys
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Speaker 1: were more likely to act out aggressively and to have
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Speaker 1: behavioral issues, and when stressed and insecurely attached girls who
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Speaker 1: were more likely to try to please others, meaning boys
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Speaker 1: were more likely to react with fight or flight, while
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Speaker 1: girls maybe more on the friend and be friend trend,
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Speaker 1: so trying to be a people pleaser essentially. And the
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Speaker 1: study continues to show that insecure attached boys are more
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Speaker 1: likely to lash out while girls may exhibit internalized behaviors.
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Speaker 1: And of course this is just one study about it,
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Speaker 1: and it just trying to account for gender differences if
11:32
Speaker 1: there are any as we talked about in our A
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Speaker 1: d h D episodes about what is seeing and why
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Speaker 1: girls may be less diagnosed is because of the external
11:42
Speaker 1: versus internal. This is kind of that same conversation. Mm hmm. Yes,
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Speaker 1: So we do have a lot more we want to
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Speaker 1: get into with this discussion, but first we're going to
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Speaker 1: pause for a quick break for a word from response there,
12:08
Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you, sponsor. So let's dig into
12:13
Speaker 1: some of the types of attachment styles often seen in adults. Um.
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Speaker 1: There are four specific types of attachment styles that are
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Speaker 1: typically noted secure attachment, anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, and disorganized attachment.
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Speaker 1: So let's get into some definitions of these. Secure attachment
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Speaker 1: also known as autonomous. Those classified as secure are seen
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Speaker 1: as being comfortable and intimacy, less likely to be worried
12:36
Speaker 1: about rejection or overly analytical, and how they view their
12:39
Speaker 1: relationships typically seen as trusting and forgiving, communicates emotions and
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Speaker 1: openly communicates them, does not need to avoid conflict. Avoidant attachment,
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Speaker 1: known also as dismissive, characterized with being uncomfortable with close
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Speaker 1: relationships and typically values independence first and individual freedom. They
12:59
Speaker 1: find itfficult to trust partners and those around them. They
13:02
Speaker 1: can be seen more emotionally distant and fearful of rejection.
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Speaker 1: They can be seen as stoic, compulsively self sufficient, and
13:09
Speaker 1: with a narrow emotional range. They are also known to
13:12
Speaker 1: be good in a crisis, less emotional, and can't take charge.
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Speaker 1: They are also seen as less likely to talk about
13:18
Speaker 1: their emotions and avoid conflict, but also may have a
13:21
Speaker 1: more explosive episode when pushed Oh that sounds familiar. So
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Speaker 1: Anxious attachment a k A. Preoccupied are more likely to
13:37
Speaker 1: be insecure in relationships, worried about rejection and abandonment, and
13:41
Speaker 1: are seen as hyperactive when it comes to knees and
13:44
Speaker 1: their behavior often obsesses on past issues and past unresolved incidents,
13:48
Speaker 1: which can interfere with their current relationships. Can be seen
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Speaker 1: as overly sensitive and can take someone's behavior or action
13:55
Speaker 1: as a personal attack. They're known as being highly emotional
13:58
Speaker 1: and combative and have poor personal boundaries, and they often
14:02
Speaker 1: blame others and seem to not be self aware. And
14:06
Speaker 1: then there is the disorganized attachment or unresolved attachment, and
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Speaker 1: this is the high levels of anxiety and an avoidance combined.
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Speaker 1: Not only are they more likely to be uncomfortable with intimacy,
14:17
Speaker 1: but also worried in questioning their partner's commitment and overall love,
14:21
Speaker 1: oftentimes associated with severe depression PTSD, disassociations and interests of
14:26
Speaker 1: triggered memories or trauma um. When looking at this type
14:29
Speaker 1: of attachment, it is often a part of the comorbility
14:32
Speaker 1: with the types of diagnosis that can be associated with
14:34
Speaker 1: severe abuse or neglect. Now, these are specific styles and
14:39
Speaker 1: categories used to identify how adults may relate with others,
14:43
Speaker 1: but there's no actual diagnosis of attachment disordered for adults.
14:47
Speaker 1: And most often when attachment and adults are being studied,
14:50
Speaker 1: they are given questions to assess the early relationships one
14:53
Speaker 1: may have had with their primary caregivers. So they are
14:56
Speaker 1: going way back and oftentimes will kind of negate what
15:01
Speaker 1: has happened recently. And we're gonna talk a little bit
15:04
Speaker 1: bit more about this later. But stressors, life events, all
15:07
Speaker 1: of these things do affect that as well. However, there
15:11
Speaker 1: are two specific attachment disorders that can be diagnosed in children,
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Speaker 1: and they are fairly new in the d s M,
15:18
Speaker 1: and that, though we aren't going to go to in depth,
15:20
Speaker 1: we did want to do a quick overview of what
15:22
Speaker 1: they are. Starting with reactive attachment disorder or RAD, usually
15:26
Speaker 1: seen in children who have suffered maltreatment, ABUS or neglect
15:29
Speaker 1: is not often diagnosed correctly and needs specific effective treatment.
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Speaker 1: If it isn't treated, symptoms may continue into adulthood. Some
15:37
Speaker 1: symptoms may include impulsivity, hard time maintaining relationships, and ability
15:42
Speaker 1: to read emotions or show affection, detachment and anchor issues. Right,
15:46
Speaker 1: and at one point in time, there was conversations about
15:49
Speaker 1: whether unresolved RAD could lead to antisocial personality disorders, but
15:54
Speaker 1: there's really no correlation. Uh, And there's the bigger conversation again,
15:58
Speaker 1: there's this whole level how hard it is to diagnosed
16:00
Speaker 1: someone with RAD as well as anti social personality disorders.
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Speaker 1: Typically there's a specific questionnaires to that, and unless they're
16:08
Speaker 1: already kind of noted to have these types of symptoms
16:11
Speaker 1: and these professionals are able to link, they won't be diagnosed.
16:15
Speaker 1: This has been my experience when I was working with
16:17
Speaker 1: the Department Family Children's Services, and how often that would
16:20
Speaker 1: be kind of just pushed to the side. There's also
16:23
Speaker 1: disinhibited social engagement disorder or d s e D, which
16:27
Speaker 1: can develop due to neglect and a lack of consistent
16:30
Speaker 1: attachment to a primary caregiver during the first two years
16:33
Speaker 1: of life. Again fairly need to the treatment world, so
16:36
Speaker 1: maybe under diagnosed or can be mixed with the RAD diagnosis,
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Speaker 1: but much like RAD, if it isn't treated effectively, it
16:43
Speaker 1: can continue into adulthood. And some signs of d s
16:46
Speaker 1: c D and adults include hyperactivity, lack of awareness when
16:49
Speaker 1: it comes to social boundaries, lack of inhibitions and certain behaviors,
16:53
Speaker 1: and may be intrusive with the people they barely know
16:56
Speaker 1: or have just met, so the boundary lines have kind
16:58
Speaker 1: of just disappeared. And when looking at children diagnosed with
17:02
Speaker 1: attachment disorders, it's usually within the ages of nine months
17:05
Speaker 1: to five years UH, though again it can manifest into
17:09
Speaker 1: adulthood if not treated. But with these two actual disorders,
17:14
Speaker 1: it can be confused with insecure attachment styles, which we
17:17
Speaker 1: talked about earlier and may not be classified as a
17:20
Speaker 1: d s M disorder or diagnosis, but can lead to
17:23
Speaker 1: other types of d s M diagnosis if not treated.
17:27
Speaker 1: And while we're talking about all of this, these, like
17:29
Speaker 1: most theories and diagnoses, look differently with different people, and
17:33
Speaker 1: many people can have more than one style of attachment
17:35
Speaker 1: issue that can be triggered based on past trauma, current
17:38
Speaker 1: trauma stress, so societal expectations or life changes in general,
17:41
Speaker 1: And the information is constantly changing and turning. But we
17:46
Speaker 1: still want to see what happens when it comes to
17:48
Speaker 1: women attachment styles and relationships. So yeah, let's take a
17:52
Speaker 1: look at that right now. Again, let's go ahead and
17:56
Speaker 1: just put this reminder here, because you know, I love
17:59
Speaker 1: all the reminders. There's not a catch all when it
18:01
Speaker 1: comes to personality or mentality types. There are some schools
18:05
Speaker 1: of thought that the attachment can play a role in
18:07
Speaker 1: a person's way of interacting with people, whether it's familial
18:10
Speaker 1: or romantic. But there's no magic quiz that can perfectly
18:13
Speaker 1: diagnose what type of attachment style one maybe categorized well
18:17
Speaker 1: for most people anyway, who knows, maybe some people can,
18:20
Speaker 1: but that I've seen or that has been super accurate.
18:23
Speaker 1: And just as we are saying earlier and any you
18:25
Speaker 1: and I were saying, we might fit into a couple
18:27
Speaker 1: of these categories on different levels, right So, and we
18:32
Speaker 1: talked a bit earlier about how each different styles might
18:35
Speaker 1: react in romantic relationships, but we wanted to look at
18:38
Speaker 1: this in a different take, specifically how this may affect women,
18:42
Speaker 1: especially when we look at the six heteronormative demands placed
18:45
Speaker 1: on women meaning the perfect wise, mother's caretakers rights. According
18:50
Speaker 1: to one article focused on attachment and relationships, author Dr
18:53
Speaker 1: Beard Brugert looks at how the focus on the attachment
18:57
Speaker 1: between two people that quote sustained traditional relationship structures and
19:01
Speaker 1: not necessarily romantic love. In her article, she states, no
19:06
Speaker 1: matter the type of attachment, attachment relationships are quote likely
19:09
Speaker 1: to involve some form of dependence and contractual interaction. And
19:13
Speaker 1: here she examines a look within marriages and domestic partnerships.
19:17
Speaker 1: When she she's talking about attachment relationships, she continues that
19:22
Speaker 1: these relationships quote replicate traditional relationship structures that could lead
19:26
Speaker 1: to an oppressive relationship right. And according to her writing,
19:29
Speaker 1: she gave some examples of why women in these roles
19:31
Speaker 1: are oftentimes the one to invest more emotional energy and
19:35
Speaker 1: how the relationships are typically uneven. She states women may
19:39
Speaker 1: subsume their identity to their partners, which in turn transform
19:42
Speaker 1: their own perspectives or ideals, trying to become more like them.
19:46
Speaker 1: Another reason maybe that women are more likely to stay
19:48
Speaker 1: in long term relationships because of the overall investment in
19:52
Speaker 1: that relationship, i e. We've done this for ten years.
19:55
Speaker 1: I can't just get out of it now. I've invested
19:57
Speaker 1: too much and changing this can be too hard. And
20:00
Speaker 1: a third reason women are more likely to be in
20:02
Speaker 1: this type of attachment relationship may have to do with
20:04
Speaker 1: the overall societal expectation that women are supposed to be
20:08
Speaker 1: dependent on men, whether we are talking about the heteronormative
20:11
Speaker 1: role of men being breadwinners or being protectors leaders of
20:15
Speaker 1: a home. The societal expectation of two becoming one places
20:19
Speaker 1: a level of dependency in order for women to be complete.
20:22
Speaker 1: So Horle conversation was based on the idea that this
20:26
Speaker 1: type of relationship is an attachment based relationship, so therefore
20:29
Speaker 1: is unhealthy and taking away power and the overall desire
20:34
Speaker 1: that a woman may have, meaning that they cannot place
20:37
Speaker 1: themselves first because in this attachment relationship they put their
20:41
Speaker 1: husbands first, which we've heard that many many times about marriages. Yes, yes,
20:48
Speaker 1: and when we break down mononormative relationships, there could be
20:51
Speaker 1: elements that some may think are too constrictive and cause
20:55
Speaker 1: more stress within these relationships. In fact, there are many
20:58
Speaker 1: theories within attachment and relationships about how specific types may
21:02
Speaker 1: not be compatible um and more toxic than others when
21:06
Speaker 1: looking at a secure attachment. The idea is that a
21:08
Speaker 1: secure style may be compatible with all the styles as
21:11
Speaker 1: long as they are able to discern and communicate with
21:13
Speaker 1: the partners, while an anxious style with an avoidance style
21:16
Speaker 1: may be one of the least likely to succeed. Though
21:20
Speaker 1: again not written in stone, these are generalizations we're dealing
21:24
Speaker 1: with now. But then we need to take into account
21:26
Speaker 1: the overall stressors of life and how each attachment style
21:29
Speaker 1: handles the stressors, whether they are exterior or interior types
21:33
Speaker 1: of stress. So a lot going on. People are complicated,
21:37
Speaker 1: and when we talk about exterior and interior types of
21:39
Speaker 1: stress is kind of like what's going around them versus
21:42
Speaker 1: what's going on inside of them and how do they react?
21:45
Speaker 1: And we talked about how you know, some more inhibited
21:49
Speaker 1: and some are more physical, so that kind of conversation. Yes, yes,
21:54
Speaker 1: and we have even more conversation for you, but first
21:58
Speaker 1: we have one more cup break for word fer sponsors,
22:13
Speaker 1: every Black thank You sponsors. So some theory is that consensual,
22:18
Speaker 1: non monogamous relationships may help open up different attachment possibilities,
22:24
Speaker 1: so you may have different styles that can actually relate
22:27
Speaker 1: with others. Even beyond that, exploring past the binary ideas
22:31
Speaker 1: of both relationships and gender could allow for better emotional
22:35
Speaker 1: regulation as well as a more secure attachments being able
22:38
Speaker 1: to be formed. So, as author Meg John Barker writes
22:41
Speaker 1: in her article gender Attachment and Trauma, Quote, consider how
22:45
Speaker 1: entwined gender is with emotional expression and how stepping outside
22:48
Speaker 1: of the culturally normative way of doing romantic sexual relationships
22:52
Speaker 1: may offer possibilities of slowing down and or prioritizing different
22:57
Speaker 1: kinds of relating which may be more stable and secure.
23:01
Speaker 1: And if you go on to read her article, she
23:03
Speaker 1: talks a lot about how gender plus trauma plus attachment
23:08
Speaker 1: can be a big portion of how we handle our
23:12
Speaker 1: relationships and how breaking down the binary ideas of each
23:16
Speaker 1: can actually be helpful in understanding our own attachment things
23:20
Speaker 1: as well as being able to relate with others. So
23:22
Speaker 1: it was really really interesting, and of course this is
23:25
Speaker 1: very new um as we are talking more and more
23:28
Speaker 1: about the spectrum of gender to the spectrum of relationships,
23:32
Speaker 1: polyamorous relationships and how it can be healthy and consensual
23:35
Speaker 1: adult relationships where people are able to explore more with
23:38
Speaker 1: their sexuality and also that spectrum as well, and breaking
23:42
Speaker 1: that down that perhaps allows us to be able to
23:45
Speaker 1: explore our attachment styles as well and to work on
23:48
Speaker 1: being more secure. So it's a really fascinating read. Definitely
23:51
Speaker 1: should read that. I also should go ahead and put
23:53
Speaker 1: this in here. In part of the controversy, the old
23:56
Speaker 1: school ideas of attachment our binary and can be even
23:59
Speaker 1: be problem magic. It has been used as kind of
24:02
Speaker 1: a transphobic idea of what gender norms could be when
24:06
Speaker 1: it comes to attachment. So we go ahead with that
24:09
Speaker 1: morning out there. There's a really bad science out there
24:11
Speaker 1: for old fashioned, very Western Christian ideas of heteronormative families
24:15
Speaker 1: and normal families, as they would call it, not what
24:18
Speaker 1: we would call it, so go ahead, but that they're so.
24:21
Speaker 1: Another key component to this entire conversation again is how
24:24
Speaker 1: trauma affects an individual's attachment style as well. So when
24:29
Speaker 1: we look at the situations of abusing violence in a
24:31
Speaker 1: person with an insecure attachment, the overall stressors can push
24:35
Speaker 1: the individual symptoms into overdrive or maybe even bring some
24:39
Speaker 1: out that we didn't know was there, whether it's having
24:41
Speaker 1: memories since we triggers that bring out past defenses, maybe distancing,
24:45
Speaker 1: being too cleany, or PTSD episodes, which can occur if
24:49
Speaker 1: a situation is a reminiscent of a past traumatic occurrence.
24:52
Speaker 1: There's also even an exploration of weather disorders like disassociative
24:56
Speaker 1: identity disorder or d I D could be linked with
24:59
Speaker 1: attached disorders our styles as well. In a two thousand
25:02
Speaker 1: and six steady the question of whether an infant's attachment
25:05
Speaker 1: disorganization could contribute to the development of adult disassociative symptoms,
25:09
Speaker 1: and though there could be some evidence that suggests there
25:12
Speaker 1: is a possible link, it hasn't been fully studied at
25:15
Speaker 1: this time. There is a commonality to the disorganized attachment
25:19
Speaker 1: style to both disassociative identity and PTSD, but no real
25:23
Speaker 1: evidence to show it being a cause or effect when
25:25
Speaker 1: it comes to d I D. But we also wanted
25:28
Speaker 1: to talk about types of therapy or treatment that can
25:30
Speaker 1: help for those with insecure attachment styles. For children with
25:35
Speaker 1: disorders such as RAD or d S e D, psychotherapy
25:39
Speaker 1: like play therapy and art therapy can often allow for
25:42
Speaker 1: children to communicate on their level, and it's typically best
25:46
Speaker 1: wind caregivers are able to attend with a child to
25:48
Speaker 1: focus on strengthening their relationship and developing a healthy attachment.
25:52
Speaker 1: Social skills training which can help children learn to interact
25:55
Speaker 1: better and social settings, and overall family therapy also good option.
26:00
Speaker 1: So for adults of course, the therapy with a trusted
26:03
Speaker 1: certified therapists. And again, because attachment styles and issues are
26:06
Speaker 1: based on personal experiences, discussing the symptoms may be the
26:10
Speaker 1: first way to note what type of treatment is best
26:12
Speaker 1: for an individual. Um Again, go to therapy, that's a
26:15
Speaker 1: good thing. But if you can't afford there, because we
26:18
Speaker 1: know that's the privilege which shouldn't be unfortunately is uh,
26:22
Speaker 1: there are ways that you can look to work on
26:25
Speaker 1: your attachment issues as well. Not only can you work
26:28
Speaker 1: on your attachment issues and insecure attachment, but you can
26:31
Speaker 1: help for any relationships. Honestly, so we just want to
26:34
Speaker 1: kind of give a couple of things as possible advice. Again,
26:38
Speaker 1: we are not professionals, so don't listen to us as
26:41
Speaker 1: if where your doctors, please go see if you can
26:43
Speaker 1: go see a therapist yourself, all of those things. But
26:47
Speaker 1: these are some things that you can look at and
26:49
Speaker 1: maybe able to process some of the things that you
26:51
Speaker 1: have been thinking on, or have been obsessing on or
26:54
Speaker 1: wondering about. Who knows. Try to work on your non
26:58
Speaker 1: verbabal communications. Between how you interpret, how you interact with others,
27:02
Speaker 1: and how you read others can affect your relationships, and
27:04
Speaker 1: being able to communicate on both nonverbal and verbal levels
27:08
Speaker 1: can alleviate some of the pain of assuming things are
27:11
Speaker 1: going wrong and being able to actually work through it
27:14
Speaker 1: without seeing the horrors of oh my god, did this?
27:17
Speaker 1: Is this going to happen? Which I do that examinations
27:19
Speaker 1: and I'm assuming everything. That's the worst m But if
27:24
Speaker 1: you could break that down and I should talk about
27:26
Speaker 1: it and actually work on yourself, this might help you
27:32
Speaker 1: work on your emotional intelligence or EQ. This means learning
27:36
Speaker 1: to understand your own emotions and how to control or
27:38
Speaker 1: even understand why you feel the way you do, and
27:41
Speaker 1: being able to express this to your partner more harder
27:45
Speaker 1: than you would think. Something I've been working on. Yes,
27:51
Speaker 1: find and develop relationships with securely attached people. This can
27:54
Speaker 1: help in romantic relationships, but can also be helpful in friendships.
27:57
Speaker 1: Having supportive, strong friends could have help you overcome your
28:01
Speaker 1: own insecurities right and a biggie work on resolving your
28:07
Speaker 1: childhood trauma or traumas. Uh yeah, And it's easy to
28:11
Speaker 1: try to bypass this one or to ignore it. I've
28:13
Speaker 1: done in a lot for me for the longest time
28:15
Speaker 1: when I was in therapy, I could never get to
28:17
Speaker 1: that because I was so constantly dealing with the daily
28:20
Speaker 1: trauma and daily issues and having to try to get
28:23
Speaker 1: past that. So I was putting band aids instead of actually,
28:26
Speaker 1: you know, doing surgery and stitching myself up. But when
28:29
Speaker 1: it comes to attachment theories, this is the one that
28:32
Speaker 1: can weigh you down from making progress and positive change.
28:36
Speaker 1: So there's a lot to that, obviously. And I throw
28:39
Speaker 1: that out there as if it's like, oh, here you go,
28:41
Speaker 1: obviously very easy. It isn't. It isn't. And typically the
28:44
Speaker 1: best way to do this is through therapy. Again, like
28:47
Speaker 1: I said, it took me ten years to actually get
28:49
Speaker 1: to that because I was just dealing with daily trauma
28:51
Speaker 1: upon trauma upon trauma, which I mean the last year
28:55
Speaker 1: I think would be the prime example of you weren't
28:58
Speaker 1: able to do the deepest off because you're dealing with
29:01
Speaker 1: the daily stuff, and that in itself can cost so much.
29:04
Speaker 1: Trauma can cost so much triggering, but as we are
29:09
Speaker 1: trying to get back to hopefully a baseline of what
29:13
Speaker 1: our life was at one point in time, trying to
29:17
Speaker 1: come back to resolve those past traumas. That's just sitting there.
29:22
Speaker 1: Really important, yes, extremely important, and very very difficult to
29:27
Speaker 1: do for sure. And you know, We've been having this
29:30
Speaker 1: serious conversation and I've had a lot of Star Wars
29:32
Speaker 1: thoughts and I've been trying to hold them back, but
29:36
Speaker 1: I just want to say, like, there's a lot I
29:39
Speaker 1: could talk about with Star Wars and attached issues stitles,
29:44
Speaker 1: because there's like the whole Jedi code of like attachment
29:47
Speaker 1: is fine, but attachment to the attachment is not fine.
29:50
Speaker 1: You have to be willing to let go you've got
29:52
Speaker 1: I've been reading these like Darth Vader, who is called
29:55
Speaker 1: Sad murder Dad, and fan fiction often stories where he's
29:58
Speaker 1: like trying to get Luke to attach do it just
30:00
Speaker 1: doing all this weird messed up stuff Kylo Wren as
30:04
Speaker 1: a whole. I don't even want to get into it anyway.
30:07
Speaker 1: I could maybe in a future happy here we go,
30:11
Speaker 1: the psychology of Star Wars. I am ready, Yes, I'm
30:16
Speaker 1: sure you are. Yes, I've been preparing, but we can.
30:19
Speaker 1: We should do a whole session where I pretend to
30:21
Speaker 1: be the counselor and you pretend to be one of
30:22
Speaker 1: the characters, and well, have like a session that would
30:26
Speaker 1: be so fun. What it so okay? Last night when
30:32
Speaker 1: we played Dungeons and Dragons and I had to I
30:35
Speaker 1: was playing essentially Kylo Wren as a villain, and it
30:38
Speaker 1: was so weird because I was like, I was getting
30:43
Speaker 1: hurt because they were saying mean things to me, but
30:45
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't like Kylo writ It was a
30:47
Speaker 1: very confusing place to be a lot of conflicting emotions there.
30:53
Speaker 1: And as you're talking about your correlation to Star Wars, Honestly,
30:57
Speaker 1: these conversations that we're having can go back to a
31:00
Speaker 1: lot of our own episodes, including daddy issues. We talked
31:04
Speaker 1: about that and that's actually that came up as part
31:07
Speaker 1: of the research as well. How that could be a
31:09
Speaker 1: part of this is it's an attachment thing where it's
31:11
Speaker 1: unnecessarily healthy, And they did have researched specifically to children
31:15
Speaker 1: bonding with fathers and can that be the caregiver? And
31:18
Speaker 1: there have been other pass words. Emerson is one of
31:21
Speaker 1: them who talks about having at least one primary good
31:24
Speaker 1: influence who you can attach to and that can make
31:27
Speaker 1: a significant change. And I believe that I've seen that.
31:30
Speaker 1: I feel like that's why mentorship programs are so important
31:33
Speaker 1: as well. But so many things that we could go
31:36
Speaker 1: with this, and yeah, this is a very skewed, giant
31:40
Speaker 1: topic that we boiled down to this because we were like,
31:42
Speaker 1: how do we do this in a way that correlates
31:45
Speaker 1: as one topic without going fifteen thousand different directions and
31:50
Speaker 1: finding notable good research that's not super transphobic, super homophobic,
31:56
Speaker 1: or any of that such, because those narratives, as we know,
32:00
Speaker 1: can change based on people's agendas and we didn't want
32:03
Speaker 1: to do that. But it's a lot, it's a lot
32:07
Speaker 1: to take in. It is a lot to take in.
32:10
Speaker 1: It's given me a lot to think about and listeners,
32:13
Speaker 1: if you would like to share your thoughts of those,
32:15
Speaker 1: you can. You can email us at Stuff Media, mom
32:17
Speaker 1: Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find us
32:19
Speaker 1: on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You or on
32:21
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our
32:24
Speaker 1: super producer, Christina, Thank you, and thanks to you for
32:28
Speaker 1: listening Stuff I Never Told You. His protection of iHeart Radio.
32:31
Speaker 1: For more podcast on iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
32:33
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.