Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / What Five-Star Eventing Taught Me About Backing Off: Joy, Feedback & the Horse's Yes | Sinead Maynard | LFRF 64

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What Five-Star Eventing Taught Me About Backing Off: Joy, Feedback & the Horse's Yes | Sinead Maynard | LFRF 64 · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our
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0:34
So now let's jump in.
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All right.
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Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free.
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We're in the eventing world kind of, sort of right now.
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We've got a big cheese from the eventing world.
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Look at her, she's made of cheese.
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Sinead Halpin Maynard, who has done wonderful things on the event field.
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And it's an interesting departure for us because actually I evented a
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lot growing up, and even though I'm sort of known more on the classical
0:58
dressage side of things these days m- my great love has always been
1:02
cross-country jumping and always will be.
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So the idea of pulling your stirrups up and having a go is sort of in my blood.
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So I'm delighted to have Sinead here, who I think embodies that spirit.
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Irish American, I'm gonna let her tell her story.
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But really I think w- what has always stood out to me about
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eventing is that it is the, in my experience anyway, the leastâ¦
1:30
Hope this doesn't get demonetized now.
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The deep, the, the, the least shitty side of the- â¦ competitive horse
1:37
world because people actually have fun.
1:40
Yeah â¦ it's, there is a bit of a limit to how far up your own arse you can dive.
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â¦ Which I think because you face death so, You do â¦ plainly and starkly, what I've
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noticed is that among all the eventers I've known, you know, from boyhood
1:55
upwards, including myself, is there is a real camaraderie, and there is very
2:00
little, There's very little snobism, even though, yes, you're still not gonna
2:04
win unless you've got expensive horses.
2:07
Just a fact.
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But still, there's very little snobism, and people tend to be
2:11
quite supportive of each other.
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I think because it is this slight sort of brothers, sisters in
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danger thing, but I could be wrong, and I asked Sinead about it.
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So really, I think what it comes down to for me is joy, and the exploration of
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joy in the horse world, which sometimes can get a little bit lost, especially
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in the dressage-age world, and when dressage becomes stress-age, et cetera.
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So Sinead, thanks for coming on.
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Tell us who you are, what you do-
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â¦ Sinead Maynard: and why.
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J- that should take, you know, five minutes, then what will we talk about?
2:45
Well, thank you for having me, and I knew from the moment I met you, you
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were an eventer at heart, because you're way too fun just to, you know, dabble
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in a little bit of classical dressage.
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Noth- nothing against the classical dressage.
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I love it myself, but we do have to have a little fun sometimes.
3:01
You know?
3:02
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we just, just don't admit it, you know, 'cause it's-
3:05
Sinead Maynard: No
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â¦ Rupert Isaacson: we actually have a, a rule in our online community,
3:08
which is it's a no fun rule.
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If I catch you having fun, you have to buy me a beer.
3:13
Yeah.
3:13
Totally.
3:13
And I only drink very expensive craft IPAs, so it gets expensive for people.
3:18
Yeah.
3:19
Sinead Maynard: I love that.
3:20
I love it.
3:20
Well, I appreciate the introduction, and yes, I do dabble in the three-day
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eventing, and have spent a lot of time in that world, and I agree with you.
3:30
I think it's, I mean, I know I'm biased, but I, I love it.
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I think there's a strong camaraderie, because no matter what, it's just a
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bloody hard sport to participate in.
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I think you have to be a really good horseman to do well.
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I think you have to have a very strong relationship with the horse,
3:47
and with yourself, and with the competition, and with reality.
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And maybe not reality sometimes.
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You know, you have to live a little bit out of the you know,
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accepting, you know, the, some of the truths you have to just get over.
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And and I think that it's a real sport that, I don't, I don't
4:02
ever find that you're really competing against other people.
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I think you compete against the track.
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Mm-hmm.
4:07
I think you compete against your preparation.
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I com- I think you compete to showcase the partnership.
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I think when it's done well, it's one of the most beautiful sports to watch.
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And well, like I think there's nothing more incredible than going cross-country-
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Mm â¦ in, when you're, when you truly have a partner that you feel like you're
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thinking the same thing at the same time.
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Your responses and reactions are l- in unison, and it's
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like a true harmonious thing.
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And, and for horses being the flight animals that they are especially with
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a lot of the blood horses that we ride, they're so calm and cool at, at speed.
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The really good ones, you know, they justâ¦
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And it, it, time slows down.
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It's like one of the most amazing feelings.
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You can be jumping around.
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When it goes well.
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When it's not going well- â¦ it's a different, it's a different feeling.
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But when you get that- Let's assume it's going
5:00
Rupert Isaacson: well.
5:00
Yeah, yeah.
5:00
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah.
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When you get that, that, And I think that's why people stay in it, is if
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you're lucky enough to get that feeling where it is just all just happening
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in slow motion, and you're truly one with a horse, jumping big jumps and
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galloping fast, it's just an- Yeah
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incredible experience.
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So-
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Rupert Isaacson: I, I would- â¦ I feel
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Sinead Maynard: very lucky.
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Rupert Isaacson: Entirely agree.
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It, it, the thing that always stood out for me about cross-country
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jumping is that I grew up in an area of England called Leicestershire,
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which is where fox hunting as we know it began in the late 18th century.
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And you know, it's where the whole kind of cross-country jumping thing, you know,
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really happened, and then got exported very quickly out through the British
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Empire to places like America and so on.
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And it was always Thoroughbred horses.
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It was always-
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Sinead Maynard: Mm
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â¦ Rupert Isaacson: failed or- No longer steeplechasing-
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Steeplechaser â¦ steeplechasers, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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Off the track.
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That was what was affordable, and so that's what you did.
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But the thing that Iâ¦
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that always stood out for me and stays with it, and it's what I'm always
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trying to help people find with their horses is, horses just really enjoy it.
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Sinead Maynard: Mm.
6:04
Rupert Isaacson: Because you can't do those ki- cross-country tracks
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on a horse that doesn't enjoy it, 'cause you'd lose your life.
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Yeah.
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I mean, y- y- you can't make a reluctant horse go into those fences.
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They're either digging it, like ah, or not.
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And- Yep â¦ so unlike sort of a dressage ride, or even to some degree a show
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jumping ride, where, okay, if they hit it, well, probably nothing too bad's
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gonna hap- We all know what happens if we hit those fences, so we've gotta
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have a horse that kinda wants to eat it up, and I think that that ecsta-
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that provides an ecstatic experience.
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And when one thinks about what ecstasy means, ex, outside of stasis, out of
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your static, out of your normal, out of your body, effectively what keepsâ¦
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It, it's built into the experience, but of course it's not for everybody 'cause-
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Mm â¦ you know, you can get hurt.
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Mm.
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So g- give usâ¦
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But joy, I think, is kind of the theme I want to follow
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here, and you're a pretty- Sure
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joyful person.
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I got on- â¦ the podcast and we had a good laugh, right?
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You know.
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Yeah.
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And then I found out, oh, she's half Irish.
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Well, of course.
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Right.
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Sinead.
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I wonder what gave it away?
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Sinead Maynard: Oh, f- the s- It's I did â¦ dosher, Bernadette, and Eamon.
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I dunno.
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Rupert Isaacson: You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just intuitive like that.
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It's a gift.
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So what I want first, Sinead, is tell us your story.
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How didâ¦
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Where were you born, how you grew up, how you sort of got into this,
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and what you learned along the way.
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Okay.
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And then when it turned from sort of girl that does it to sort of big cheesy stuff-
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Like with a, with a, with a flag on your, on your saddle- â¦ you know, pad.
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Sure.
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And then, you know, where, where you are now, and then we'll go,
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we'll sort of take it from there.
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So bio- Yeah â¦ please, now.
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Sinead Maynard: Go.
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Well, I too spent some time in Texas, so I was actually born in
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Texas, in Fort Worth, and then my family moved to- My commiserations
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Rupert Isaacson: on that.
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Yeah.
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Sinead Maynard: It's okay.
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I was under five.
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I don't really remember.
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And then my family moved to South Carolina.
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So both my parents immigrated from Ireland, and- Okay â¦ actually my
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brother was born in Ireland, so they kind of traveled around the US, found the
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place that was most unlike Ireland, i.e.
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Texas.
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Why?
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Rupert Isaacson: Why did they do that?
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Sinead Maynard: God only knows.
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I really am confused myself.
8:13
They, but they, I think they just liked the idea.
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They had some friends down there, my dad got some work, and they
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just thought- What did your dad do?
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And my dad did everything.
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Like, when he, when they first came here, they had a camper, and they just
8:26
traveled around going from place to place.
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My dad was a real handy guy, so he did everything from, like, cleaning
8:32
the bottom of boats in the ocean and in the river to building, to myâ¦
8:36
They, my parents actually worked at the Kentucky Horse Park mucking
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out stalls there for a while.
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And
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Rupert Isaacson: ultimately-
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Sinead Maynard: Were they
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Rupert Isaacson: horsey in Ireland before they left?
8:43
Sinead Maynard: My dad was not.
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My dad grew up, he was one of 10, kind of that classic, like,
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Angela's Ashes story, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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In Dublin.
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Dad died early.
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My mom was one of four, and she grew up in the country, and sheâ¦
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Oh, they always had ponies.
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Her brother was a master of the hunt.
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She never really competed, but they just grew up on a big farm and always rode.
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Which- So she was horsey â¦ which
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Rupert Isaacson: area of Ireland was that?
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Which hunt?
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Sinead Maynard: Oh, God, you would think I could remember this off
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the top of my head, but I can't.
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Rupert Isaacson: So- Wh- which area, do you know?
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Sinead Maynard: County Meath.
9:15
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, yeah, then almost certainly one of six hunts there,
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right, just outside Dublin, yep, yep.
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Yeah.
9:21
Big ditches- to jump there, yeah
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â¦ Sinead Maynard: yeah, so my Uncle Pat was very, very into
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the horses, and so yeah, thatâ¦
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But when they came, when they came here, it was not part of the thing.
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My dad ended up stumbling into a, a company called Cooper Air Tools, so he
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worked on airplanes, and that is ended up what took us to South Carolina.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
9:42
Sinead Maynard: And I don't know.
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I think I did the kid thing, you know, like, wanted to ride a pony,
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and ultimately it was something that my mom had a keen interest in as
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well, so we started kind of riding and taking lessons a bit together.
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And fast-forward a bit of time, I did some hunter-jumper stuff, and then- we
10:00
bought a little pony named Hobo for $500.
10:03
His show name was Classic Bum.
10:06
He was Pony of America.
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We promptly, being of Irish descent, changed his name to
10:12
Boomerang, the great Eddie Macken's showjumping horse, Boomerang.
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So I did that for a bit, and it was really interesting because my mom you
10:19
know, having grown up with fox hunting and all of that, just didn't really
10:23
understand the hunter-jumper culture.
10:26
Right.
10:26
And so she struggled with that a little bit, and I can't remember what the final
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straw was, but I think she bought a black saddle or something, and the trainer just
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had a fit that it wasn't a brown saddle.
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And anyway, she had a friend that knew something about eventing, and so we
10:44
thought, "Well, we'll just try that."
10:45
And there's dressage, so you know, Arabian horses do dressage,
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and there was an Arabian horse that was for sale down the road.
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So why not get that Arabian horse, you know?
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It's, it was a total disaster.
10:56
But that, that's really how we stumbled into eventing and, and
11:00
it kind of took off from there.
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It was just, it was something that I, I had a really great coach that she, she
11:08
real- She evented kind of through the preliminary/intermediate level, but she
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was, she was really fabulous, and I had a great friend that did it with me as well.
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And so we just started eventing.
11:18
And that's what we did all weekend.
11:19
So through- In South
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Rupert Isaacson: Carolina.
11:20
Sinead Maynard: In South Carolina.
11:21
So we would go to Aiken and, and Camden and at that point
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my dad had become a builder.
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He had started building.
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And he partnered up with a gentleman that wanted to build a community
11:36
around a horse farm, and it so happened that I liked horses.
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So my dad then built this boarding facility, and then they
11:44
built this community around it.
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Which w- and w- that was in high school.
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And so we lived above the barn, which is wild, because I live above a barn now.
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I've, like, always lived above barns.
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And, Where
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Rupert Isaacson: else should one live?
11:55
I mean- I mean- â¦ isn't that heaven, you know?
11:57
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
11:57
I'm like, I say that to my kids all the time when they're like, "Why don't we
12:01
have like, you know, a normal house?"
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I'm like, "What kid has 12 horses that sleep underneath them?"
12:06
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you should just call their bluff and say, "You know what?
12:11
One year in a subdivision.
12:12
I'll stay here with the ponies."
12:15
"You go and-" Totally
12:17
"knock yourselves out in that subdivision.
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We'll talk, we'll talk at the end of three weeks."
12:21
Sinead Maynard: I know.
12:21
You would, you would not survive.
12:23
There are not a lot of lizards in subdivisions, and my
12:25
kids like them some lizards.
12:27
Yeah.
12:27
So yeah, so that was kind of the, you know, I my, my- Agreed â¦ parents were
12:30
also very, like now that I have kids, I can't believe how much they let me do.
12:36
Like, when I was 15, so in South Carolina you could get your- a
12:39
driver's license when you were 15.
12:41
And I, I was, I really had the bug.
12:44
I like really was invested, and I heard of a working student
12:48
program in Middleburg, Virginia.
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And so my parents-
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Rupert Isaacson: Ah, yeah.
12:52
Wild something ground.
12:52
Yeah,
12:52
Sinead Maynard: yeah.
12:52
Love it.
12:53
My parents just let me drive up to Virginia by myself
12:58
and take, and take a horse.
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And so I went to Virginia for three months in the summer, worked for
13:02
a, a, a Canadian Olympian up there.
13:05
Then I did the same thing when I was 16, and then somehow I
13:09
scraped out of high school.
13:11
And then that person was living in Georgia, so then at the day
13:14
after I graduated high school, I moved out and moved to work in,
13:18
in Georgia and kind of do it full time, and that, that's that really.
13:23
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting because, you know, when I read your
13:25
bio, it doesn't come across that way.
13:28
It comes across more that maybe you'd grown up partly in Ireland and-
13:33
Mm â¦ that even if, if your mum had been connected to hunting and to be a
13:38
master of a hunt, obviously it takes some money to be a master of a hunt.
13:42
Mm.
13:42
But you can be from a family that- Mm â¦ has that money, but
13:45
not have that money yourself.
13:46
And- Yeah â¦ it sounds like your dadâ¦
13:48
Well, I was looking distracted there.
13:49
I was looking for the lyrics of a song.
13:51
What- Mm â¦ what was the, what was the decade that your parents moved over?
13:57
Sinead Maynard: It would've been, it would've been 45 years ago
14:01
Rupert Isaacson: So that would've been-
14:02
'70s.
14:03
Basically, yeah.
14:04
It just, this reminds me of, of, of, it's so easy to forget what life was
14:09
like in Ireland and England back then.
14:12
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm,
14:13
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
14:13
And it justâ¦
14:13
Do you know the band The Pogues?
14:15
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
14:16
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know the song Thousands are Sailing?
14:18
Thousands are sailing across the western ocean.
14:23
Where the hand of opportunity draws tickets in a lottery.
14:28
Where e'er we go, we celebrate the land that makes us refugees from
14:33
fear of priests and empty plates.
14:36
From guilt and weeping effigies.
14:39
And- Love it â¦ of course, they went to America.
14:41
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
14:42
Rupert Isaacson: And e- even those boys that I, I grew up training
14:46
horses with in Virginia, that, that was what they were fleeing.
14:49
They were fleeing poverty.
14:50
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
14:51
Rupert Isaacson: And lack of opportunity, and terrible oppression from- Yeah â¦ the
14:54
Catholic Church, unless you happened to be of a very free money, upper Anglo-Irish
15:02
caste- Yeah â¦ or very, very much of the sort of west coast Celtic Irish speaking.
15:07
Yeah.
15:08
If you were something in between, it was a beautiful, but shite place.
15:14
And it sounds like your dad was, to some degree, escaping that, and
15:17
sort of coming to America- Yeah
15:18
to make good.
15:19
Yeah.
15:20
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
15:20
I mean, I remember, I remember saying to him, like, a lo- a while
15:24
back, I was like, "Dad, have you read the book Angela's Ashes?"
15:26
And he just looked at me and laughed, and he said, "Sinead, I lived that."
15:29
Like, I don't needâ¦
15:30
You know it, I think he had a pretty, a pretty rough go of it.
15:33
My mom, on the other hand, you know, it was a classic.
15:35
Like, she, she had a great, a great upbringing.
15:38
She went to a really great boarding school- Mm â¦ and was the youngest.
15:42
And, you know, my, both my parents were very charismatic people.
15:45
And
15:46
Rupert Isaacson: so I
15:46
Sinead Maynard: think she-
15:46
Rupert Isaacson: So she fell for the good-looking boy from the wrong side
15:48
Sinead Maynard: of the tracks.
15:49
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
15:49
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
15:49
T- totally.
15:50
Yeah.
15:50
Totally.
15:50
Yeah.
15:51
You know, and then they moved thousands and thousands of miles away from
15:53
family, and then had two kids, and then, you know, everything blows up.
15:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
15:57
Yeah, yeah.
15:57
Well.
15:59
Sinead Maynard: Whis-
15:59
Rupert Isaacson: there's always the
16:04
Sinead Maynard: whiskey.
16:04
You know?
16:04
Yeah.
16:05
Yeah.
16:05
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.
16:05
Exactly.
16:05
You know, I'll tell you, that darker side of Ireland, you know, we have in
16:09
Horse Boy, you know, our therapeutic,
16:10
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
16:11
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: world, we actually have a, a project that was beginning,
16:15
quite a large one, in, In Galway
16:18
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
16:19
Rupert Isaacson: And it can't happen because they foundâ¦
16:21
It was an ex-re- religious site.
16:23
Nuns-
16:25
Sinead Maynard: Oh
16:25
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: used to take in mothers with unwanted babies.
16:28
Right They found so many babies buried in the land, that the forensic people
16:34
are all like, "Can't do the project."
16:36
Sinead Maynard: Oh my God.
16:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and it's really easy to forget that that was the reality.
16:40
Yeah,
16:40
Sinead Maynard: yeah.
16:41
Oh, it'sâ¦
16:41
Yeah.
16:41
It's, it's a differentâ¦
16:43
Yeah.
16:43
It's cra- it's crazy how not long ago that was.
16:47
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
16:48
Indeed.
16:48
Sinead Maynard: You know, it's bananas.
16:50
Rupert Isaacson: So okay.
16:51
So Angela's Ashes.
16:52
Mar- he marries the h- Master of the Hunt's glamorous-
16:56
Sinead Maynard: Sister
16:57
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: relative.
16:57
Yeah.
16:58
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
16:58
Rupert Isaacson: Runs away with her.
16:59
Mm.
16:59
Mm-hmm Um, but then builds you effectively your starting point.
17:05
Mm-hmm What a good dad.
17:05
Mm-hmm.
17:06
But to go from that that you're describing, you know, to y- you get
17:11
a sort of your first kind of talented but kind of no hoper type horse.
17:16
You pour your all into it.
17:17
You work your ass off for someone who screams at you, but probably has a
17:21
lot of good, I, I worked in Virginia.
17:23
I know what it was like back then.
17:25
Mm-hmm Um, and harsh, but interesting, but exciting.
17:30
But you and I both know that to get to the point where you have the American
17:34
flag or any country's flag on your saddle pad usually means you have
17:38
to have some sort of silver spoon.
17:40
Because- Mm â¦ the type of horse that you've gotta have under your butt at
17:44
a certain point and you've gotta have more than one- isn't likely to arrive
17:50
without that, yet some people manage to.
17:53
Yeah.
17:53
And I'm always rather intrigued by how that happens.
17:57
So how did that happen for you?
17:59
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, through a a lot of a lot of a lot.
18:04
I mean, I, I, you know, I, I think it's a very, it's very true what you say.
18:08
I think it, it's, it's pretty much impossible in competitive horse sports
18:13
these days to not get a leg up somewhere.
18:16
You're gonna have either family, family support, you're gonna
18:19
have a really big sponsor.
18:20
There, there's not the amountâ¦
18:22
You cannot teach enough lessons or- Mm â¦ train enough horses to
18:26
be able to afford the horse that you need to be able to, to compete.
18:30
So for me, I worked for a, a, a kind of really not a great guy for
18:36
a very long time, but he was a, he was a very good, he was very good
18:40
at horse management actually, and I learned to work very, very hard.
18:45
And then I started freelancing, and that was awesome.
18:48
So in Middleburg where, you know, it, there was so much to do.
18:50
So I galloped race horses, I worked polo ponies.
18:53
I worked at Mosby's Tavern.
18:55
I don't know if you ever remember Mosby's
18:57
Rupert Isaacson: or Magpie.
18:57
I had been thrown out of Mosby's Tavern actually.
18:59
More
19:00
Sinead Maynard: than once.
19:00
Yeah.
19:00
That's why I got a job there.
19:01
They couldn't kick me out.
19:02
Yeah.
19:02
And I was too young to drink actually when I first started working there,
19:07
and so that was the only way I got to hang out with, like, my friends.
19:10
So I'd work at the racetrack at Middleburg Track in the morning, and then I
19:14
Rupert Isaacson: had- Was it you that threw me out?
19:14
I think it might've
19:14
Sinead Maynard: been at- Well, it's quite possibly.
19:15
Yeah.
19:15
That's you know, I was pretty tough.
19:17
Yeah.
19:18
And rented over the mountain at a farm called Long Branch.
19:22
I don't know if you wouldâ¦
19:23
It was a big, old facility.
19:24
It was beautiful.
19:25
Mm-hmm.
19:25
It actually unfortunately a couple years ago burned down.
19:27
Mm.
19:28
But and I kind of, and I moved and started working with David and Karen O'Connor-
19:33
Rupert Isaacson: Right
19:33
â¦ Sinead Maynard: who at the time were really dominating the sport, and they
19:36
created an amazing team of people.
19:39
And to be fair, a lot of the people that were working with
19:42
them were quite well-funded.
19:44
A lot of their students and the people that were my age were going to Washington
19:47
and Lee, and then had their horses there and were riding at the same time.
19:51
But, but David and Karen really were amazing to me, and they, You know, like
19:56
I remember one time going to Karen, and we were talking about something,
20:00
and she actually asked me, like, "How are you paying for this and that?"
20:03
And I, I think I just started crying 'cause I wasâ¦
20:05
I, I don't know.
20:07
And she just, I had written a check to her for lessons, and she just ripped it
20:10
up in front of me, and she just said, "The one, the first thing people stop doing is
20:13
taking lessons when they're struggling, and you will pay us when you can."
20:16
Mm.
20:17
And I remember winning- a competition.
20:20
It was back in 2005, and I got a check for, like, $5,000.
20:24
And I have never been so proud to have gone and written David, I gave, wrote
20:28
David a check for a year of lessons, and I gave him that check and a picture of
20:31
this winning, and it was, like, it was, like, the first lesson, like, check I
20:35
had written him for lessons in years.
20:37
You know?
20:37
They just really appreciatedâ¦
20:40
Like, they would always say, "Watch that person, they really ride
20:43
well," and I'd tell that person to watch you 'cause you work hard.
20:46
And I didn't realize that was kind of a backhanded compliment.
20:50
I was like, "Whatever.
20:52
I'll keep showing up."
20:53
And and along that road, I- I started a sales business with a friend of mine
21:03
But we started a business together.
21:04
She galloped with me in the morning, and we, I taught a daughter of a
21:09
woman who got pretty excited with what we were doing, and she helped us.
21:13
We started buying, importing horses and selling them.
21:15
And it, at that time, we were in such, we were right out, we were three miles
21:19
outside of town, and so we would sellâ¦
21:22
If, people would come and look at our horses or we'd just drive
21:24
them around and- and we would make money off of the commissions.
21:27
And then Nancy also at that period of time bought a, bought
21:30
one horse for me to compete.
21:32
So she was my first real sponsor.
21:34
And she was wonderful.
21:36
So we kind of got these horses to ride and sell, and then she owned, I think
21:40
she u- she ultimately ended up owning two horses that I got to ride through kind
21:45
of the intermediate and advanced levels.
21:47
So that was really the first, the, my first shot at upper level eventing.
21:53
I bought a horse off the track.
21:54
It was too much horse for me.
21:56
I traded it with the guy that I worked for that wasn't so awesome.
21:59
And that horse ended up taking me up to my first, what's now four star.
22:04
And I was 19 And and it was wild.
22:07
He was a really â¦ It was Thoroughbred horse.
22:09
He was wonderful cross country.
22:10
And so I got my first kind of experience with him, and then it would've been
22:14
a, a, another 10 years really before I got back up to to the level again.
22:20
And then I had a very I had a really hard time, like, probably in my mid-20s.
22:26
So I was in Middleburg.
22:27
I was working really hard.
22:28
I was kind of, like, knocking on the door at times with these horses, but to
22:32
be frank, they weren't quite good enough and neither was I, and I was spreading
22:35
myself really, really thin just with work and, and my parents were split, had
22:40
split up, and I was getting hurt a lot.
22:43
Like, I injured myself a lot.
22:44
Like, I broke my femur.
22:45
Yeah.
22:46
I broke my â¦ Like, I had metal in my femur.
22:48
Then I was just back on from that, and I fell off and broke my hand and
22:52
my fingers and got plates in that.
22:53
I broke my collar bone.
22:54
Like, I just kept- Mm-hmm â¦ making stupid choices 'cause I was tired and-
22:59
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
22:59
â¦ Sinead Maynard: stupid and mad.
23:00
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
23:02
Sinead Maynard: And then-
23:02
Rupert Isaacson: I've been there.
23:03
Yeah.
23:03
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
23:03
Like, I think it's your 20s, right?
23:06
Rupert Isaacson: I was old enough to know better.
23:07
Yeah.
23:08
I, I, yeah, I'll tell you that story another time.
23:10
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
23:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
23:11
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
23:12
It was it was just kind of I was a little bit on a treadmill.
23:15
And I'd had one of the horses that Nancy had w- was, was turning into
23:20
quite a nice horse, and I finallyâ¦
23:23
He won a big event, and then I got on to a d- like, we have,
23:26
like, a developing riders list, so it's the list before the list.
23:29
It's like, "We see you're doing good things.
23:31
You're not quite good enough."
23:32
Who is
23:32
Rupert Isaacson: we?
23:32
The, the,
23:33
Sinead Maynard: the- Like Team USA.
23:34
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
23:35
Sinead Maynard: Like-
23:35
Rupert Isaacson: So you h- you had already come under their notice at this point.
23:39
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
23:39
So I- Was that through
23:40
Rupert Isaacson: the O'Connors?
23:41
Sinead Maynard: It, yeah, it was through â¦ 'Cause I won a what was a three star.
23:44
So I won a big, at Radnor Hunt, I won a big three star.
23:47
And so that's the level below what you can actually get put
23:52
on an official training list.
23:53
Mm.
23:53
But if you win one, normally they'll say, we have like a, a list that's, like,
23:58
like a talent spotting list basically.
24:00
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
24:00
Sinead Maynard: And once you get on that list, you'll get some winter training
24:03
sessions, and they'll just kind of keep their eye on you knowing that, like,
24:06
if you keep progressing, it might be a horse in combination for the future.
24:10
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
24:10
Sinead Maynard: So I got on that list, and then I think it was the next
24:14
season the horse moved up to the level that, you know, was a, a, a fairly
24:20
big international level, and I had a, a really a, a horrific fall, and the
24:25
horse broke his neck and died on course.
24:26
I- And it was, it wasâ¦
24:28
I mean, I still get, like, right now, I just, I mean, that was a
24:30
long time ago, but it's still, it's, it was very, very hard.
24:33
And something like that happens.
24:34
I mean, most people, obviously most people that work with horses will
24:38
lose one one way or another, or more, but it was a, oh, it was awful.
24:42
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
24:43
It
24:43
Sinead Maynard: was awful.
24:44
So then I just had to make some changes, so I just got the hell
24:47
out of Dodge and moved to England.
24:50
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
24:51
That's an interesting- Swerve.
24:53
Sinead Maynard: Swerve to the right.
24:54
Rupert Isaacson: But that's an interesting thing because, A, you weren't English.
24:56
Mm.
24:57
So I presume there were some visa issues, and B, England is a very
25:00
expensive place to live and show up, especially in the horsey world.
25:04
I mean, you can rent obviously a, a trailer, caravan in somebody's
25:07
backyard and, you know, work their ponies, but how did you manage
25:12
that, and why did you manage that?
25:13
That's-
25:14
Sinead Maynard: Mm
25:14
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: not an easy transition to make for a North American.
25:18
Sinead Maynard: So, so, Tommy, the horse that passed away,
25:21
was insured, and we ended upâ¦
25:25
I bought a not a great horse, honestly like quite a trickyâ¦
25:30
another, an, a thoroughbred horse actually out of the jumpers.
25:33
And Na- we all kind of agreed, like my, like David, who at that point
25:38
was kind of like a second dad, David
25:40
Rupert Isaacson: O'Connor
25:41
â¦ Sinead Maynard: you know, he-
25:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
25:41
â¦ Sinead Maynard: yeah, you know, he really was like, "Something's
25:45
gotta give," you know?
25:46
And he, and then my mom at this point had remarried And her
25:52
husband was big in quail hunting.
25:56
Okay.
25:56
Like quail hunting and quail shooting, and- Down
25:58
Rupert Isaacson: in South Carolina it's a thing, yeah,
26:00
Sinead Maynard: yeah â¦ N- North- yeah, they're in North Carolina.
26:02
The Carolinas.
26:02
It's- my husband still gets confused which Carolina I'm from.
26:05
But he- Both of them, yeah â¦ so, yeah.
26:07
All of them.
26:08
All of the above.
26:08
Yeah.
26:09
And so, and Mark Phillips was our US team coach.
26:15
Captain Mark
26:17
Phillips.
26:18
So I hadâ¦
26:18
Captain Mark Phillips.
26:18
Ex-husband of Princess Anne.
26:18
Okay.
26:18
Exactly.
26:18
And his daughter, Zara, is my age.
26:21
Okay.
26:21
And she had just won the world championships on a horse
26:24
called Toytown, quite young.
26:25
And anyway, all these worlds kind of started to come together.
26:29
Sorry, Mark
26:30
Rupert Isaacson: Phillips came on one of the quail hunts.
26:31
Is that-
26:32
Sinead Maynard: So Mark is the big quail hunter.
26:34
Okay.
26:35
And so Mark and my mom's new husband, my stepdad- Mm â¦ had met quail hunting and
26:42
shooting, and blah blah blah over here.
26:44
I knew Mark from US eventing.
26:47
David knew Mark from US eventing, and basically what happened is that we all
26:54
kind of got together and, and Mark came to me and said, "You know, like Zaraâ¦
26:58
" Sh- he, he said, it's again another thing, "Zara has had a lot of
27:02
competitive results but she hasn't really mastered how to run a business.
27:06
You seem to be able to kind of get by and just clock arou- around, and
27:12
work hard, and have a business, but haven't had a ton of success in this.
27:16
Maybe you guys could work together.
27:17
Like maybe, maybe you could do some freelance work for her.
27:21
We'll put you up at our farm, you know, you come over here."
27:25
And so Nancy, who owned the, the previous horses, was on board with
27:29
flying this young one over with me, and I had a place to live, and I thought
27:35
I had some work, basically, that I'd be able to kind of make it work.
27:38
And Jim, my stepdad, said, "Hey to help you, I'll, I'll give you X amount of
27:43
money a week or a month to help you get started on your living costs."
27:46
So that's
27:46
Rupert Isaacson: effectively a sponsor.
27:47
Yeah.
27:48
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
27:48
Yeah.
27:48
Yeah, totally.
27:50
And and I went over there, and to be honest it all, it was awful.
27:58
It was a disaster.
27:59
Like the Cotswolds were not at all like South Carolina.
28:04
Rupert Isaacson: There is a word for the Cotswolds- â¦ but I can't say it online.
28:09
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
28:09
Rupert Isaacson: There- but think of a four-letter word that begins
28:13
with C- â¦ that rhymes with punt- â¦ and add wolds to it.
28:20
Sinead Maynard: I can, it, I don't have to stretch.
28:22
Rupert Isaacson: And it's, it's, it's because so many billionaires live there,
28:25
Sinead Maynard: Oh, yeah
28:26
Rupert Isaacson: because it's proxim- beautiful countryside, proximity to
28:28
London, proximity to- Yeah â¦ so lots of politicians as well.
28:31
So yeah, it has that rep.
28:33
That's a- Well, it wasn't- One of my best friends lives in them,
28:35
and they are very beautiful, yeah.
28:36
Sinead Maynard: It's so beautiful, and I love it now,
28:38
but it's like when I was thereâ¦
28:40
So when I was in Middleburg- Mm â¦ it was very easy, like, it, you weren't
28:46
considered a second-class citizen to work for the rich, if that makes sense.
28:49
Right.
28:49
Like, that's how I lived.
28:50
Like, I, I mean, I wouldâ¦
28:52
Miss Mars, Jackie Mars, Candy Bars, was the biggest sponsor and owned the
28:56
farm that David and Karen were on.
28:57
Yeah.
28:58
I would go to dinner parties at her house, but I was making, you know,
29:01
$5 an hour cleaning the stalls, doing this whole thing, but you, it never
29:04
felt like there was a hierarchy.
29:06
Like, it felt fine.
29:08
You know, like,
29:09
Rupert Isaacson: and- As long as you're white.
29:10
Sorry, had to say it.
29:11
Sinead Maynard: Well, word.
29:12
I mean, first world, like- I lived there
29:13
yes, totally.
29:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but, yes,
29:14
Sinead Maynard: yes,
29:14
Rupert Isaacson: I get it, yeah.
29:15
Sinead Maynard: And but when I went to England, and when I went to that
29:18
area- Mm â¦ it was not that case.
29:20
Like, I never feltâ¦
29:22
I, I, it was not invited into the house, if that makes sense.
29:25
And, I
29:26
Rupert Isaacson: totally do, and it's so interesting because in other parts of
29:28
England in some ways actually, o- older, more aristocratic even parts of England,
29:35
you would've been completely welcomed in.
29:37
But there is, in that particular area, a, a sense of status among people- Yeah, yeah
29:46
â¦ which I wouldn't say is representative.
29:48
Hence, hence the nickname of the area.
29:50
Yeah â¦ and you obviously fell right into that, yeah, yeah.
29:53
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
29:53
But and I think there's side doors in.
29:55
Like, I think if I had had a five-star horse, like, I
29:58
could have had a side door in.
29:59
Well- You know, like things like that, but- â¦ well, status â¦ yeah
30:02
And yeah, so it was kind of wild.
30:04
But David came over for Burley horse trials, and I was just going to watch.
30:09
And I, I, heâ¦
30:10
I just said look, I think I need to come home."
30:12
Like, I- Mm â¦ this was a disaster.
30:14
The, the horse that I came over with is going terribly.
30:17
He's really struggling over here.
30:19
And I can't get enough work to, like, ride enough horses
30:22
to make it worth the expense.
30:24
Mm-hmm.
30:24
And I c- I'm not making any money.
30:25
And you know.
30:27
And he said, "You got, I gotâ¦
30:29
I'm gonna introduce you to one more person," and he introduced
30:31
me to William Fox-Pitt.
30:33
And William and his wife, Alice, invited me down to Dorset for an interview.
30:39
And they needed a, a, a rider.
30:42
And I went down there, and I was like, "These are my people."
30:46
Like, I went straight- When
30:48
Rupert Isaacson: was that?
30:48
What year was that?
30:49
Sinead Maynard: That was 2007.
30:51
Rupert Isaacson: So interesting.
30:52
2009, let me just tell you a little Fox-Pitt story.
30:55
So I used to, when I was a boy out hunting, I would follow
30:58
his mum across the field.
30:59
Oh,
30:59
Sinead Maynard: yeah?
31:00
Yeah.
31:00
Rupert Isaacson: Because she would hunt up in that area that I w- And
31:02
she was like, if you got behind her-
31:05
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
31:05
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: y- y- she could be like your North Star.
31:07
She was such- Yeah â¦ a good rider.
31:09
And then- Yeah, yeah â¦ after I published The Horse Boy, I r- I was doing a demo
31:14
on how we work with autism at a big English equestrian thing, and she showed
31:21
up, and I was like, "I used to ride behind you, and you know, you basically
31:25
kept me safe over all those fences."
31:26
And she, then she said, "Oh, well, my son's here."
31:28
She introduced me to William.
31:29
William just completely spontaneously said, "Oh, well, why don't you come down
31:33
to mine, and we'll do a demo of what you do with mine at my, with my horses."
31:38
Yeah.
31:38
"And I'll just get a bunch of people, and they'll all donate to your charity."
31:41
I'm like, "Okay."
31:43
Yeah.
31:43
And I go down, and he's so nice, and he gives me his best horse.
31:49
And he says- â¦ "Do it with this horse."
31:51
I'm like, "I can't do it with this horse.
31:52
You know, what if I- Yeah â¦ you know, fuck him up," whatever, you know?
31:54
"No, no, do it with this horse."
31:56
Then I start playing around in hand with the horse just to get know.
31:59
He goes, "Oh, that stuff.
32:00
I went to Saumur to learn that stuff.
32:02
Yeah, I should be doing that more.
32:03
I should be telling my students to do it that more.
32:05
Yeah, it makes the horse more bal- Yeah, it's how they,
32:06
that's how you learn feeling."
32:07
And what was so interesting, he couldn't, him and Alice- There was just this utter
32:14
niceness and decency, and he was right at the top of his game at that point.
32:18
Mm-hmm.
32:18
He was the number one in the world, and he didn't have to do any of this,
32:24
but he did, and even down to the thing of being nice and complimentary when
32:28
I'm dicking around with his pony.
32:29
You know?
32:30
Like, he didn't need to go that extra mile to make me- No â¦ feel
32:33
comfortable, yet he did.
32:35
Yeah, yeah â¦ so yeah, so big fan- Yeah
32:38
of Team Fox Pitt, for sure.
32:39
Totally.
32:39
All right, so, so you, you, you end up there, and-
32:42
Yeah â¦ things get better, right?
32:44
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah.
32:45
It was, it wasâ¦
32:46
Well, yes.
32:47
So at that point, I was also very fortunate, because Jim my stepdad,
32:52
decided, "Okay, you know what?
32:54
You're â¦ You need some more help.
32:56
You're a disaster.
32:58
How about we buy you a nice horse?"
32:59
Perfect.
32:59
And so there goes the, you know, like, okay, the big leg up, right?
33:03
So-
33:03
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah
33:04
â¦ Sinead Maynard: but, but at that point it was very interesting, because Iâ¦
33:07
It was gonna be him and Mark Phillips deciding what this horse was.
33:11
And so I kept- Okay â¦ going to look at horses.
33:13
Then they were like, "No, no."
33:15
And I'm like, "But I love this one.
33:16
This one's amazing."
33:16
"No, no, no."
33:17
And I finallyâ¦
33:19
I get this phone call from a friend of mine, and she said, "Look, there's
33:22
a, there's a horse in France, and it's doing, it's doing things that reallyâ¦
33:27
Like, it's being ridden by a friend of a friend, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever,
33:31
and you should go look at the horse.
33:32
Itâ¦
33:32
I don't know anything about it, but it'll cost you 30 quid to hop
33:34
on the ferry to go look at it."
33:36
And I go, so I go to look at this horse, and it walks out of
33:39
the stall, and I think, "I spent too much on this ferry ticket."
33:43
You know, like that was so skinny and ugly, and anyway, I, Iâ¦
33:48
H- It's thisâ¦
33:49
It was a seven-year-old French horse that the family had bred, and the
33:52
family taught lessons, but they also ran this event, Haras de Pin.
33:57
And it was-
33:59
Rupert Isaacson: Haras de Pin.
34:01
Sinead Maynard: I know.
34:02
I say it like the South Carolinian.
34:03
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
34:04
So w- For people that don't know what that is, that is a big effing deal.
34:10
Yeah.
34:10
Haras de Pin in Normandy is like- Big cheesy, big cheesy, big cheesy squared.
34:18
Yeah, it's not like some little mom and pop thing.
34:20
Come on.
34:20
Yeah.
34:21
Sinead Maynard: So they, their family, like, ran the event here and bred- Okay
34:26
this horse, right?
34:26
All right.
34:26
Yeah.
34:26
So, so they're kind of, like, over here, and then they're running this event here,
34:31
and they're all involved in this thing.
34:32
But this horse had kind of fallen through the cracks because- Mm â¦ the gentleman
34:35
that was riding him was really doing more jumpers, but he would run him at the event
34:39
because the event was there at their home.
34:41
And so the horse did, like, no fitness work, and then it would
34:44
jump around to one star, and then it jumped around to two star, and
34:46
then it jumped around to three star.
34:47
And you know- Mm â¦ like, I watched videos in, like, the typical French way.
34:50
Like, the guy's, like, basically smoking a cigarette, jumping off this massive bank,
34:53
and the horse is just like, "Whatever."
34:55
And so I rode him, and it was just, like, a lovely horse, you know?
35:01
He just had a, three nice gaits.
35:02
He was quite shy.
35:04
And I remember jumping over, there were, like, some just poles on
35:08
the ground, and he just was very careful over the poles on the ground.
35:12
And I just, at this point, I was so ready for a horse.
35:15
And it was funny because Mark and Jim were, I don't know what, they
35:20
were busy or distracted, 'cause I'm sure they would've said no.
35:22
I'm sure they would've said, "This horse isn't fancy enough.
35:24
It doesn't have the record.
35:25
It's blah, blah, blah, blah."
35:26
But they were both kind of over me a little bit, and just ready for me to have
35:30
a horse, so they, so we got this horse.
35:32
And I said to them, "Worst case, it's a really good young rider's horse, okay?
35:35
Like, it'll, we can sell him, and I can take him with me to Williams.
35:38
I'll have something to ride."
35:40
And so, so we ended up getting him, and I was at my third day of work at
35:46
Williams, and he was down in their, I'm sure you probably remember.
35:50
They have, like, a quarantine barn at the other end of the arena.
35:53
So when horses come down, it's like they've got- Mm-hmm â¦ like,
35:55
metal boxes down there.
35:56
And William had bought Alice a surprise pony to foxhunt, and the
36:02
pony was being hidden down there.
36:05
And I went to feed the horses down there the third day, and the pony had
36:09
gotten out and really messed with Tate.
36:12
Tate turned around, kicked his leg through a metal door.
36:14
Tate
36:14
Rupert Isaacson: being the horse that you've just-
36:15
Yes â¦ bought in France, right.
36:17
Sinead Maynard: Severing his hind extensor tendon.
36:19
Rupert Isaacson: Nice.
36:20
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
36:20
So we w- I wasn't sure what was gonna happen at that point.
36:24
And we got him to the- to the vet, and they were like, "Well, we'll just see."
36:31
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
36:31
Sinead Maynard: And so I, I, ironically, I got this horse to ride
36:35
there, and he, and ultimately we were so busy at William's I ended up
36:38
having to send him to a rehab place.
36:39
I only did one comp- I was in England for almost two years,
36:43
and Tate, I think he was, I had him for two months at William's.
36:47
The rest of the time he was rehabbing.
36:49
Yeah â¦ but the, the weird part about, and it's funny 'cause I was actually
36:53
talking to Alice Fox-Pitt yesterday about this, and the weird part about it
36:57
was it was 2008, I think, at this point.
37:01
We had, William had three horses that was g- that were getting
37:04
ready for the Olympics at Beijing.
37:06
We had 28 horses that were all competing at the international level.
37:10
William was competing all the time, and for them, I didn't, I was so lucky,
37:16
'cause I was getting to ride so much.
37:18
And I mean, I was riding eight of n- really nice horses a day.
37:22
And for them it worked, because normally when they had a rider that was kind
37:26
of my age, mature en- I think I was 27 or 28, mature enough to, like, work
37:30
in the barn and have some common sense and also ride pretty well, normally
37:34
those people have their own business or they have their own sponsors.
37:36
So they don't, they're not the person that can stay at home
37:39
and ride all these horses.
37:41
Mm-hmm.
37:41
So I got to ride Balmoral, Tamarillo, Park Lane Hawk.
37:46
You know, like, probably probably whatever horse was there when you were there.
37:48
Like, and it was, it was incredible, and I wasn't actually competing
37:53
because my horse was hurt, so I just rode all the- Yeah, but
37:55
Rupert Isaacson: you were learning.
37:56
You were learning- Yes â¦ learning, learning.
37:57
Yeah.
37:58
Yeah, yeah.
37:58
Sinead Maynard: Yes.
37:59
So that was pretty, that was pretty incredible.
38:01
And yeah, basically Tate the horse came back kind of the last few months
38:06
I was there, and I thank God, because William gave me such incredible help
38:10
and advice with that horse because he was quite unusual in his way of going.
38:15
And William just said to me, he said two things that were really important, because
38:19
at that point- I had never ridden at the five-star level, and as you know, by the
38:24
time you're 30, most of the time if you've been doing it for that long, you would
38:27
have ridden at that level, and worked under the people that I'd worked under.
38:30
And he said, "Look, if you don't go five star by the time you're 30,
38:33
it's just not in the cards for you.
38:34
Like, you ride well enough, and this horse is good enough.
38:37
So if you don't go, go do something else so you don't waste your life."
38:40
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
38:40
Okay.
38:41
Sinead Maynard: And I was like, "Wow, that's heavy."
38:44
And and then he also said about T- he said, "The horse is good enough as he is.
38:48
Like, he's shy.
38:49
Build his confidence.
38:50
Make sure he's looking where he's going.
38:51
But don't let them change him.
38:54
They're gonna wanna change the way that he jumps, 'cause he has an
38:56
unusual style, but he's careful enough.
38:58
He's good enough."
38:58
So, and anyway, I, I ended up taking him home, and he just, pshew, was phenomenal.
39:06
Like, he, 2008, he was top three at the National Championships.
39:10
2009, same thing.
39:12
He moved up a level.
39:12
2010, I went to a Nations Cup in Holland in Bocole and s- silver medal.
39:16
2011 my 30th birthday, I did my first five star.
39:20
He was third behind Mary King, one and two.
39:22
2012, first reserve for the London Olympics.
39:25
Second place at Burley.
39:27
Rupert Isaacson: So that, that string of, so you said I, I took him home.
39:30
You, you don't, you're not saying, or are you saying you took him home to the USA?
39:34
Sinead Maynard: Yes.
39:34
Or- I took him home to the USA
39:36
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and the, but then you go over to Boekelo in
39:37
the Netherlands, and then you're- Mm-hmm â¦ at Burghley in the UK.
39:40
Mm-hmm.
39:41
When a, a listener listens to this, what, what they have to realize is that
39:45
this is a horse flying around a lot.
39:47
And, Yeah â¦ I have flown horses around.
39:49
It's really expensive.
39:51
Mm-hmm â¦ how do you afford it?
39:52
Sinead Maynard: The US paid for it.
39:53
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
39:54
Ah, so the- Yeah, grants â¦ by that point you're on their radar- Yeah â¦ and
39:58
they're like, "Okay, you're Team USA."
40:00
Yeah.
40:00
"We're behind you."
40:01
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah.
40:02
Okay.
40:02
So, and I, yeah, all the flights were grants, so they
40:05
would pay, pay for that to go.
40:07
So we're, we're very lucky in the US is that itâ¦
40:10
Like in Canada, it's interesting because Canada, for their, all their athletics,
40:14
they have, they've got carded athletes, so you can get a monthly stipend.
40:18
US doesn't have that, but we have a lot of grants.
40:20
So we like developing riders, European tours, things like that, we have
40:24
a lot of money that's earmarked to send people overseas to compete.
40:28
Okay.
40:29
So if you're, if you get yourself to that point, then most of
40:32
the time you get support.
40:34
Rupert Isaacson: It's good to know the ins and outs of this, 'cause I
40:36
think a- a- a lot of us looking at it from the outside actually just wonder,
40:38
"Well, how the hell do they do it?"
40:39
You know?
40:40
Yeah.
40:40
And you just assume that it's, I guess you do assume at a certain point if
40:43
it's like the Olympics or something that they're gonna pay for that.
40:46
Yeah.
40:46
But if it's to get you to something like Burghley or Badminton- Mm-hmm â¦ or
40:52
Rolex Kentucky- Mm-hmm â¦ you would sort of expect that the, the, the rider
40:57
has to do that privately, and it's, it's quite nice actually to know that the,
41:02
that our taxpayer money - Yeah â¦ is
41:04
Sinead Maynard: going-
41:05
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah â¦ is going towards- Yeah â¦ something,
41:06
you know, fa- constructive.
41:08
That's quite nice, actually.
41:09
Yeah.
41:09
Sinead Maynard: So they, every twice a year, you basically have these training
41:13
lists where, you know, like I had said earlier, like there's a developing list
41:18
that I had made it on, and then o- if you get to the next level and you have
41:22
some good results, you can kind of getâ¦
41:23
And I'm a team selector now, so I get to see it from this other side.
41:27
So you, You kind of have this pool of riders, and you have certain
41:30
ones that are like, would be like on your A list, and there's maybe
41:32
only three or four on that list.
41:34
Mm-hmm.
41:34
And then you have your next list that has like, you know, 10.
41:36
And so all of those people you're trying to get overseas, you're trying to get
41:41
them to compete so that they're- Okay
41:42
super prepared for Olympic Games, World Championships Pan American Games,
41:46
anything, anything along those lines.
41:49
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
41:49
I, I guess that makes sense 'cause if somebody were to drop out last minute
41:52
or something, then you've gotta have a replacement, so you've gotta have
41:56
those other people- Mm-hmm â¦ up to snuff and able, and the horse- Yeah
41:59
is able to go and cope in new places, et cetera.
42:03
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
42:03
You said- Like, normally when you send in like, your nominated entries for like,
42:08
say a World Championships or something like that, you can send in up to like
42:13
12 to 14 horse and rider combinations.
42:16
Okay.
42:16
And then you whittle that down.
42:17
Mm.
42:18
You pick your team.
42:19
Like, so for the Olympics it's only three.
42:21
For the World Championships it's four and one individual, and
42:23
then you rank your alternates.
42:25
And then depending on the country, you would probably fly, and where
42:28
they are, fly two alternates just in case you need to slip one in.
42:31
But you would have this big list because like the US now, we didn't used to,
42:35
but we would name our squad almost a month early so that everybody feels like
42:39
secure in what they need their final preps to be, as opposed to kind of like
42:42
competing to the bitter end and then maybe not prepping the way they should.
42:46
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
42:46
Sinead Maynard: So yeah, there's, there tends to be at like this
42:49
revolving list all the time.
42:52
Rupert Isaacson: So you getâ¦
42:53
You, you have all these wins, and you, you, you do really
42:56
well What happened to them?
43:02
Sinead Maynard: We all got old, Rupert.
43:04
The horse got old.
43:07
So, after 212 Jim decided that he didn't want to be an owner, honestly, anymore.
43:14
Like, he, he had other things in his life that he wanted to do, and
43:17
that was kind of a leg up for me.
43:18
So what he graciously did was he gave me an amount of time to find a syndicate to
43:23
put together- Okay â¦ to buy the horse.
43:24
And he offered the horse at a fairly reasonable price.
43:26
So we put together a syndicate, and that syndicate owned him for the next while.
43:32
I mean, he had aâ¦
43:33
Heâ¦
43:33
We ended up going, which was wild.
43:35
So I missed out on the Olympics, and then had a really good season 2014,
43:40
and made the world championship teams, which was in Normandy, France, which was
43:43
where he was bred, which was very cool.
43:46
Ah, there you go.
43:46
So his- Yeah.
43:47
Yeah.
43:47
It was very, very neat.
43:49
So his breeders were there.
43:51
It was awesome.
43:51
Fast-forward even now, like, the designer for the Paris Olympics,
43:55
Pierre Le Gruel, was his breeder.
43:57
His family bred the horse.
43:59
So it's, it's, like, this neat, you know, it's, there's only
44:01
so many degrees of separation.
44:03
So we went to world championships.
44:05
And then 2015 was a bit of a rough year.
44:08
I lost my dad, and then, you know, kind of the wheels came
44:12
off there for a little bit.
44:14
And somehow managed to climb back into the top 10 at Kentucky, and so I got on
44:19
the lists for the Rio Olympics But I was down on those lists, but still took part
44:25
in the training sessions, and then as kind of a consolation prize, they sent me to
44:32
Ireland to compete at a competition there.
44:34
And unfortunately the horse sustained an injury at that point that was basically
44:40
gonna take him out of that level.
44:42
It was kind of a reoccurring suspensory issue that we had managed his whole
44:45
career, and at that point it- he was 16 years old, and that level of
44:48
sport was getting a bit much for him.
44:50
And that all kind of coincided with at that point really Tick
44:54
and I, you know, throughout that time, like I'd gotten married.
44:58
We spent a lot of money kind of chasing this dream, and didn't have much to
45:04
show for it at that point in time.
45:05
And the way that the syndicate was structured, to be f- frank,
45:08
it wasn't structured very well.
45:10
I didn't own a hair of the horse, and I paid for basically
45:13
half of him all the time.
45:14
So we were pretty, pretty skint.
45:16
So at that point we decided toâ¦
45:21
We really needed to lay down some roots somewhere.
45:23
And that's when we ended up thinking about buying a farm, and so then we
45:28
had to get pretty creative about that.
45:29
And yeah, but that, that did end up coming together in 2016.
45:35
We bought a farm down here in Florida.
45:37
And, and then honestly, we kind of had to push some of the competitive
45:40
goals aside for a bit and figure out.
45:42
It took us five years to be able to take over the mortgage.
45:44
We really utilized some friends and people that we had worked with
45:48
for a while that helped us with, we had one friend that gave us an
45:51
interest-free, gave us a year of an interest-free loan for the down payment.
45:55
Another f- couple that we worked for that actually bought the farm as a second
45:59
farm, and then we did like a balloon mortgage, and then we had to build up
46:02
enough credit to be able to buy it.
46:03
So the, the next five years was a bit of a hustle.
46:05
Our first son, our first child was born.
46:08
So that was all a blur.
46:09
Yeah.
46:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
46:11
It's interesting, you know, because I think when people look at it from
46:14
the outside and they see a successful equestrian competition career-
46:18
Sinead Maynard: Mm
46:19
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: what is very, what of course never gets reported is just
46:23
what a hustle the whole thing is.
46:24
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
46:24
Rupert Isaacson: Now obviously there are some people I think
46:26
who can come from enough money-
46:29
Sinead Maynard: Sure
46:29
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and then ease their way into sponsorship.
46:31
But even those people, I've known a few of them, they've got to
46:34
maintain or they lose the sponsors.
46:37
Mm.
46:37
And it, the whole thing is quite stressy.
46:41
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
46:47
Rupert Isaacson: If you're looking at the horse world from the
46:49
non-competitive angle, a, a lot of people would say, "Well, why do it?"
46:54
Mm-hmm.
46:54
Like, whyâ¦
46:56
Is, is that not just buying into ego and competitiveness and stress on horses
47:02
and you know, all the bad stuff, right?
47:04
Mm-hmm.
47:04
Which we know goes on.
47:05
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
47:07
Rupert Isaacson: But of course it's not the whole of the story.
47:11
And, you know, where we were back at the beginning, I think particularly
47:15
with the eventing world, I never met an event horse, either of my own, I never
47:20
obviously got to your level, but I jumped some big things in some, you knowâ¦
47:24
We only would ever one day event.
47:27
But nonetheless, if you go far enough with that, you could face some scary stuff.
47:31
Sure.
47:31
And again, the camaraderie is really good, and it's mostly just people
47:35
with jobs who have a horse, and this is what they love to do, so that's
47:39
what they spend their money on doing.
47:40
And they maybe don't go on vacation, or they maybe don't have a nice car.
47:43
They just do this thing.
47:44
Yeah.
47:45
But-
47:48
It, what, what do you say?
47:52
'Cause the horse world is changing so much now, and it used to be when you
47:55
and I, I mean, obviously I'm 800 years older than you, but- â¦ given that
47:59
we're- It's not that â¦ somewhat out of the same culture- Yeah â¦ when I was a
48:03
boy, it was all about the competition.
48:06
Mm.
48:06
And the happy hackers were looked down on.
48:09
Mm.
48:10
Now, when I go out and do all the dressage training, which I only
48:14
ended up in by accident through the back door with autism people say,
48:18
"Well, I'm just a happy hacker.
48:19
I, I don't ne-" I'm saying, "Yes, me too.
48:22
That's what I do."
48:23
"But I just wanna do it on a horse that's awesome, and I wanna do it on a horse
48:26
that's happy, and I wanna do it on a horse that's healthy and well-balanced
48:28
and full of bubbly wellbeing."
48:30
And I also think it's quite fun to pop flying changes around things
48:33
and to do a little piaffe here, a little passage there, 'cause it's,
48:36
feels creative and it feels fun and it feels joyful and non-stressy, and
48:41
there's no competitive side to it.
48:43
It's just us practicing the art, effectively-
48:46
Mm-hmm â¦ out there in nature.
48:47
Why not?
48:48
So yeah- Yeah â¦ let's be happy ha- let's be happier hackers, you know?
48:51
Little, happiest hackers or however we'd like to- â¦ you know, do it.
48:54
That's
48:54
Sinead Maynard: competitive.
48:55
Don't- Yeah â¦ I wanna be the happiest hacker there is.
48:57
And you
48:57
Rupert Isaacson: know, once-
48:57
Sinead Maynard: I'm gonna be the freaking happiest hacker.
48:59
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
49:00
That's right.
49:00
I'm not compe- not a competitive bone in my body.
49:01
Sinead Maynard: Not competitive at all.
49:03
No.
49:03
But I'm happier than
49:04
Rupert Isaacson: you are.
49:04
None at all.
49:04
Yeah, yeah.
49:06
Happier than thou.
49:07
â¦ And then of course, you know, if I'm, if I am out, then of course I'm always
49:10
looking for something to pop, you know?
49:11
So I can't be anywhere.
49:12
Like, "Ooh, pop that.
49:13
Ooh, ooh, pop that.
49:14
Ooh, maybe I could pop that," you know?
49:16
So, but why compete?
49:19
And- I think let's just meet that one head-on.
49:25
I think I could posit some things about why, but from your
49:30
point of view, why compete?
49:32
Why even bother?
49:33
Right?
49:34
You say you're a selector now for the US team.
49:36
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
49:36
I
49:36
Rupert Isaacson: mean, why?
49:38
Why not just roll your eyes and just enjoy ponies and practice the art?
49:41
Yeah.
49:42
Sinead Maynard: Oh, pr- probably, you know, I love
49:44
competing, but two, two things.
49:46
Well, this is it.
49:47
Let me tell you this.
49:47
Rupert Isaacson: So, so go into that.
49:47
Yeah.
49:48
Go into why you love
49:49
Sinead Maynard: competing.
49:50
Yeah.
49:50
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
49:53
an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping
50:00
people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field.
50:05
Are you a therapist?
50:06
Are you a caregiver?
50:08
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50:09
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50:13
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
50:18
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50:19
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
50:25
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50:28
Temple Grandin.
50:29
And she told me what to do.
50:30
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
50:35
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50:40
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50:44
Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
50:49
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
50:53
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50:56
You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
50:59
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51:03
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51:06
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
51:09
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51:14
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51:22
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51:29
We really want to know.
51:30
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
51:35
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
51:39
Sinead Maynard: First of all, I amâ¦
51:41
You can ask anybody, I am not a brave person.
51:43
Like, I am not an adrenaline junkie.
51:46
I do not likeâ¦
51:47
I do n- I hate cross-country schooling.
51:49
Like, I have to have somebody go with me to make me jump
51:51
something bigger than a log.
51:52
And but I love, I'm fortunate, I'm fortunate enough, like the relationship
51:57
I had with the horse Manoir de Carneville was so phenomenal that it showed
52:03
me, like, what a high-performance relationship can look like.
52:06
Yes, but you could do
52:07
Rupert Isaacson: that- It showed me-
52:08
without, without competing.
52:09
Sinead Maynard: Iâ¦
52:10
See, I don't know if I can.
52:12
I mean, maybe I can.
52:13
Okay, b- I mean, that's not, but-
52:14
Rupert Isaacson: So let's go into the psychology of this a bit.
52:15
Sinead Maynard: Sure, sure.
52:16
So for me, when I, like, and, and 'cause I live this now, like I'm competing now,
52:21
I, I will be riding my horse at home.
52:23
I'll feel like this relationship is great.
52:25
I have this thing I have this thing you know, that we're having this great
52:28
dialogue back and forth, and then what I wanna do is I take it out to a local
52:32
show, and I put that a little bit under pressure, a little bit of a test.
52:36
Can I execute all of these things and show, like, we can
52:40
communicate under pressure.
52:41
We can have this thing work, and, you know, I can, I can
52:44
do two plus two is four.
52:46
I can do pl- four plus four is eight, right?
52:48
And then as you go up the levels, like that becomes more complicated.
52:51
Like, here, well, can you do all of these things?
52:53
And it's mapped out very, very clearly, and it's very progressive.
52:56
And what I find more often than not is I'm like, "Oh yeah, this isâ¦
53:01
I'm killing the game."
53:02
And then I go to a horse show, and I'm like okay, I found a flaw."
53:05
I found, like, that actually I didn't realize that this horse is, is more
53:11
concerned, you know, I, he's been fine around the barn, this and that,
53:13
whatever, but when I take him to the horse show, he's actually doesn't have
53:16
the confidence I thought he had in me or in the environment or in the pressure or
53:20
in the noise or in the change of place.
53:22
He doesn't have that, so what do I need to do?
53:24
I need to go home, and I need to build that confidence.
53:25
I need to go to the round pen, or I need to put him in the rope halter because
53:29
right now I've just, I've gone out on cross-country, and I can't slow down.
53:32
Why can't I slow down?
53:33
So instead of going to a bigger bit, I go home, and I put on a rope halter,
53:36
and I go and jump in a rope halter.
53:37
Until I can jump everything in the rope halter, I don't go
53:39
back out to the competition.
53:40
And so for me, competition has always been real feedback,
53:45
not like what I think is good.
53:47
Like, but there's a, there's a standard.
53:50
There's an expectation.
53:51
It, a lot, some of it is, is not subjective, and some
53:54
of it is very subjective.
53:55
Like your dressage test is- Fairly subjective.
53:58
You know, unless you're, unless you don't do the thing.
54:00
The cr- the show jumping and the cross country, it's this, it's the same thing.
54:04
And then you've got kind of this fitness element to it, and then
54:07
also my s- like my skill set, like now it's more muscle memory.
54:12
Like, so much of it is muscle memory, and I can't tell you, like, when I'm
54:17
jumping a horse and I- or going cross country or my body just operates in
54:21
the way wi- with the horse that it athletically I feel like it's just like,
54:25
pew, so good, it feels, like, incredible.
54:30
It like, it, I'm like, "This is where I'm supposed to be.
54:32
This is where, what I'm supposed to be doing."
54:34
And when I'm training, I'm pretty analytical.
54:37
Like, I'm pretty, like I'm thinking about what I'm doing all the time.
54:40
I'm thinking about the, what the horse is thinking, how we're working together.
54:43
And then when I go to a horse show, it's kind of like it needs
54:46
to slip into a different mentality.
54:49
It needs to be feel and timing and, and instincts and not thought.
54:54
Any time I start thinking too much at a horse show, it all goes wrong.
54:57
There has to beâ¦
54:58
Like, it's funny too, like, there's, I get really nervous.
55:01
Like, I, I, I'm very nervous.
55:03
Like, it's hard to talk to me before I go cross country.
55:05
I have to get, like, really, really quiet.
55:06
But I learned a lot of skills from when I got, when I broke my femur, basically.
55:11
That was a pretty horrible surgery and come back to, and I was really scared.
55:15
Like, I was really, really scared.
55:17
But the only way that I was making money, Rupert, was riding
55:20
racehorses and competing horses.
55:21
Like, that, that's the only skill set I had.
55:23
Not that I couldn't go do something.
55:24
Oh, I was working a, I was a really bad waitress, so that wouldn't,
55:26
wouldn't have turned into much.
55:28
But I remember calling David and- Yeah, you threw
55:30
Rupert Isaacson: me out before I could even tip you.
55:31
Yeah, I know.
55:32
Sinead Maynard: It's terrible.
55:33
I know.
55:35
You, well, you probably told me- Let's save the money there
55:36
I was a terrible waitress, and I was like, "Don't tell anybody else.
55:38
Get out."
55:39
And they you know, I called David.
55:41
I was at this horse show, and I said, "I am s- I am freaking terrified.
55:45
Like, I don't wanna leave the box."
55:46
And he just said to me, "One jump at a time."
55:49
He said, "Go, like, jump, like go to the start box, jump the first jump.
55:53
If you don't wanna jump the second jump, come home, but just one jump at a time."
55:56
And it was so funny because- I went and I jumped the first jump,
56:00
and I'm like, "Okay, I'm okay."
56:01
Jump the second jump, "Okay, I'm okay."
56:03
Get kind of to the fourth jump, I jump, drop into the water, right?
56:06
And you have to drop into the water and go right to some log or
56:08
something, and I turn right and go, "Nope, don't wanna jump that jump."
56:11
And I do this circle, and I look back at it and I'm like,
56:14
"I think I can jump that jump."
56:15
So I jump the jump, and I, I make my way, 157 time penalties
56:19
and a 20 later, get through.
56:21
And I'm like, you know, "I'm okay.
56:23
I'm okay."
56:24
And I had a friend come up to me and she goes, "What happened at the water?
56:27
It, it almost looked like you, like, pulled the horse out of
56:30
the jump, like, you circled."
56:32
I'm like, "Oh, I don't know.
56:33
He spooked at something.
56:34
It was weird."
56:35
And but I w- And then I started reading a lot of books on sports
56:39
psychology, and I found it very intriguing, and I learned how toâ¦
56:46
Like, I learned a really important skill set and lear- started to get to
56:49
know myself a lot, that I could, eight strides out from the fence, I could,
56:53
my focus could just calm down, and all I would be at was, was the jump.
56:59
All the other things would settle down.
57:01
And in the warmup it wasn't always like that.
57:03
In the warmup I'd be nervous, I'd be thinking, blah, blah, blah.
57:05
But I just kind of, I think just it started at that one competition where
57:09
I just got so laser focused on this, like, one jump, and then I would go
57:12
broad focus and then narrow focus, and then broad focus and then narrow focus.
57:16
And it became a skill set, and it, that r- has really helped me.
57:21
And, like, visualization has been huge.
57:23
Like, I'll walk a course, like at Kentucky I would walk five times, and I wouldn't
57:28
leave a jump until I could get through visualizing exactly how I want it to go.
57:34
But I could feel, like I knew the horse so well, I could feel what he was gonna see.
57:38
You know?
57:38
Like, I knew what, how he was gonna respond.
57:40
I would, I would feel myself put my leg on and him stall, and I'd be
57:44
like, "Nope, gotta do that again.
57:45
I might have to put my leg on two strides earlier."
57:47
You know?
57:48
And it, then you'd go out, and you'd execute this thing
57:52
together, and it's just likeâ¦
57:54
Yeah, I mean, I guess that's probably the, you know, the nerves and then
57:59
the calm, and then the relief and then the reward, and then the animals, like
58:03
the athletic ability and partnership and engagement of these animals,
58:07
like you say, that just love it.
58:09
Like, the ones that do it at that level, they're just like- They're like another
58:14
be- I mean, it's incredible, you know?
58:16
Like-
58:16
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
58:17
â¦ Sinead Maynard: and so for me, I think the competition helps me actually get
58:23
out of the analytical side, give me real feedback, w- puts me, it gets me
58:28
in check with what's real as opposed to, like, what I think is real.
58:31
Like, I'm like, "Okay, this was a real issue."
58:34
And right now, the- the challenge and the fun part for me, because, you know,
58:37
getting back to the joy of it all, like at the end of my career with that
58:43
horse, I was not having a good time.
58:46
Like, I was â¦ I mean, I remember being in Ireland an hour before my show jumping,
58:49
getting a phone call from the girls at home saying the credit card was bouncing.
58:52
We didn't have enough money to pay for the feed that needed to come the next day.
58:56
Like, I was really struggling with some of the people in the syndicate
58:59
'cause they wanted â¦ I'm not even supposed to talk, like they- they wanted
59:01
to take the horse away, basically.
59:03
And you know, it was like this whole, we were so skint, and
59:08
there was no horse coming behind.
59:10
You know, we had just had this family tragedy, and I'd- I'd had a miscarriage.
59:15
Like, we were struggling getting pregnant.
59:16
Like, it was just like all of this.
59:18
It was horrible.
59:19
Like, and I just thought â¦ And- and I c- Rupert, like I can't tell you how many
59:25
times I wish I didn't â¦ And my life would be so much easier if I didn't wanna
59:30
compete, like, if I didn't love that.
59:33
And there's been so many times where, like after I had my first kid, I
59:35
was like, "Maybe, maybe I'll change.
59:39
Maybe, like, I'll just be like, wow, I just don't wannaâ¦"
59:42
But, like, I have this, like, thing in me that just loves that challenge of it, and
59:50
the- the feedback, and then the training.
59:53
I love the training.
59:54
I love it so much.
59:55
Like, I â¦ It's like the running joke here, like Tick and I are so different.
59:58
Like, Tick goes out on the hack path, and he's doing all this stuff,
1:00:00
and I'm just like, like, they- you have to force me to go on a hack.
1:00:03
Like, I- if I'm on a hack, I have to, like- It's, I have to force myself not to
1:00:09
be like, "Oh, I'm gonna work on this halt, and then I'm gonna rein back, and then I'm
1:00:11
gonna leg yield, then I'm gonna do this thing, I'm gonna do this thing," 'cause
1:00:12
I just wanna see, like, what can we do?
1:00:14
What's possible?
1:00:15
And for me, moving into it again in this part of my life, one of the biggest
1:00:21
challenges is to keep the joy and to keep the fun, and it's ver- â¦ Like, that's
1:00:26
been really hard because I, there's a part of me that's probably, you know,
1:00:31
some deep-ingrained stuff that's, like, you know, wants, wants to get to that
1:00:37
Olympics and wants to do that thing, and I, I don't really know why that's there,
1:00:42
like, why that, that North Star is there, but I have to try really hard to keep
1:00:46
myself in the present and enjoyingâ¦
1:00:48
You know, like, I was competing this past weekend, and I have this lovely
1:00:52
Irish horse, and he's been going so great, and then he got into the warmup
1:00:57
and he g- he just, you know, made best friends with the horse in the trailer
1:01:00
on the five-minute drive over there.
1:01:02
And every other event, I've made sure to spend a lot of timeâ¦
1:01:06
He, he just is a bit Irish, and he's so funny, but he, you know, he likes to play
1:01:09
around on the rope before I get on him.
1:01:10
He wants to rear, and he wants to buck, and he wants to
1:01:12
jump, and it's not malicious.
1:01:13
He just, he gets distracted- Wants to play â¦ he gets distracted.
1:01:16
He wants to play.
1:01:16
Mm.
1:01:16
And, and he's Irish enough that if you were to go at
1:01:18
him, you know, he's a big guy.
1:01:20
He, they just- They'd,
1:01:20
Rupert Isaacson: they'd have a fight, yeah.
1:01:21
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, so I just let him play, and then- Yeah â¦ he goes to work.
1:01:24
And this time he's been so grown up, the last little while, I just
1:01:27
hopped on him, and then I thought, "That was a terrible idea."
1:01:30
And and at that point, I just had to kind of navigate the dressage,
1:01:34
and and, and figure it out, and I just thought, "That was so stupid."
1:01:38
And then I went jumping, and he was so great.
1:01:40
He was so amazing, and he finished second to last.
1:01:43
You know?
1:01:44
And it was awesome because it's the best he'd ever gone in the jumping phases,
1:01:48
and I let him go slow because he wasn't competitive, which m- helped him get more
1:01:52
rideable on the cross-country because he's normally just taking everything
1:01:55
on, and, and it was like that part is in me, too, where I can find a lot
1:01:59
of joy in being second to last, but I just know the training's going the
1:02:03
right way, and then I get so excited because I'm like, "I know what they
1:02:06
need to be able to do at that level."
1:02:08
Like, I know, and, and now if Iâ¦
1:02:11
Before, I didn't.
1:02:12
You know?
1:02:13
Like, before, I didn't know.
1:02:13
I was just so eager to get there, I just gave everything up and
1:02:16
compromised whatever and sold my soul a little bit to some syndicate
1:02:20
stuff, and I'm like, "I don't care.
1:02:22
I just wanna get there."
1:02:23
And then I got there, and I was like, "Well, it sucks being here like this."
1:02:26
Like, I have one of the nicest horses in the world, and I have an
1:02:28
amazing relationship with this horse, and it is being, like, murdered
1:02:32
because of all of the stuff that I've gotten myself entangled with.
1:02:35
That is the un-fun, the un-cool part of competitiveness
1:02:38
that you were talking about.
1:02:39
And so for me now, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I wanna do that,
1:02:42
but I wanna do it this way."
1:02:45
You know?
1:02:46
Rupert Isaacson: Let me ask a devil's advocate question.
1:02:48
Yeah.
1:02:48
So, you know, you've got the horse world, the, the competitive people,
1:02:50
the non-competitive people, and the non-competitive people- Mm-hmm
1:02:55
sometimes have been competitive people.
1:02:58
And maybe they left with a bad taste in their mouth, or maybe they just- Mm.
1:03:03
Yeah â¦ evolved away from it for whatever reason.
1:03:05
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
1:03:05
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe they, you know, like for me, I've got
1:03:07
nothing against competing at all.
1:03:08
I just, it's just not me.
1:03:09
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:03:10
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah â¦ but I scratch the itch to a certain degree,
1:03:12
but I'm also not, I just also don't happen to be competitive in that way.
1:03:16
But I think that the question that people would pose, and this is kind
1:03:21
of a good one, is I can absolutely understand all of the psychology
1:03:24
that you just described personally.
1:03:27
Mm-hmm.
1:03:27
You know, and you come from warrior stock, you know, and there is that desire
1:03:32
to go test yourself on the battlefield.
1:03:34
You're a Viking Celt, you know, that's the are- that's that area of Ireland.
1:03:38
That's- Mm-hmm â¦ who the people are.
1:03:39
I've got plenty of friends there.
1:03:40
And but why put the horse through that?
1:03:46
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:03:46
Rupert Isaacson: Now, that's not meant as a shitty trap question.
1:03:51
Yeah,
1:03:51
Sinead Maynard: yeah.
1:03:52
Rupert Isaacson: Because you and I both know, as you say, that the
1:03:55
horse that doesn't enjoy particularly cross-country, you'd be unwise to
1:04:02
get on its back and try, because it'll probably end in a wreck.
1:04:06
Mm-hmm â¦ so the enjoyment is built in, I know from personal experience, but not
1:04:12
everyone has that personal experience.
1:04:14
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
1:04:15
Rupert Isaacson: From your point of view, w- do we have the right as riders?
1:04:21
You know, I have to ask myself this sometimes when I'm training
1:04:23
horses, because, you know, I've got my dressage hat on and, you know,
1:04:26
someone wants to train their horse up through the upper levels, and I
1:04:30
start getting a feeling that maybe the horse wants to go a different way.
1:04:33
Yeah.
1:04:33
And that there's dressage for every horse, 'cause there's these
1:04:35
three different types of dressage.
1:04:37
There's, you know, working equitation, y doma vaquera, California vaquero-y stuff.
1:04:43
That's dressage.
1:04:44
There's the bullfighting and combat, medieval combat styles.
1:04:48
That's you know, rejoneo and what they call in Germany, Rossfechten, Ross
1:04:53
being the name for like a steed, fechten is fencing, and that's a real art,
1:04:58
and it's all dressage all the time.
1:04:59
And then there's what we think of as dressage, which is people
1:05:02
in that rectangular arena doing something semi-abstract and balletic.
1:05:06
But quite often, because that's the only dressage people know, you know, I'll
1:05:10
say to someone, "You know, I don't think this horse really wants to do this.
1:05:13
I think he might-" Yeah
1:05:14
"want to do that.
1:05:15
But I do get that this is your only horse, and you want to do this."
1:05:18
Mm-hmm.
1:05:19
You know, so is it possible to kind of tribe up with some people who have
1:05:23
some different horses, so maybe there's someone in that tribe that wants to
1:05:27
explore these other forms, maybe can play with your pony, and maybe there's
1:05:32
someone in there who has a horse that really likes this abstract stuff.
1:05:36
Can you guys negotiate something?
1:05:38
Then you went to, "Well, no one else can ride my horse."
1:05:40
But what I find is actually people do- â¦ find their way, actually.
1:05:43
Once they-
1:05:44
Sinead Maynard: Sure
1:05:44
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: face that demon of no one can touch my horse and realize
1:05:47
actually maybe the horse doesn't give that much of a shit- â¦ then they
1:05:51
often find some happiness that way.
1:05:52
So, but so do we have the right as monkeys to impose our monkey-nesses-
1:06:04
At all?
1:06:05
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:06:06
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think?
1:06:07
Sinead Maynard: I mean, I think it's a great question, and I think if you're in
1:06:09
the industry, you have to constantly be asking yourself that, and having those
1:06:13
types of real conversations, realâ¦
1:06:16
The look at yourself in the mirror and make sure you're
1:06:17
doing right by your horse.
1:06:18
And I think as long as you've got the horse's welfare and interests in
1:06:21
mind every time you get on, I think you're asking the right questions.
1:06:26
And I think there are a lot of horses now that are bred for high performance sport.
1:06:30
Like, it's in- Mm â¦ their genes.
1:06:32
Like, if you put them in the field, they are jumping out of that field.
1:06:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
1:06:35
Sinead Maynard: And I think that one of the coolest things, and I
1:06:38
think you can see it across a m- a multitude of different species, is
1:06:42
the level of engagement that these- Mm
1:06:44
animals can have, and that they seek, and that they seek this harmony, and they seek
1:06:48
this partnership, and they seek this fun.
1:06:50
And look, we all start with, like, this need for safety and comfort, but
1:06:53
when we can get past that, when we can get to curiosity, we can get to
1:06:56
play, like, that's the real stuff.
1:06:58
And then when you meet- Yeah
1:06:59
a horse that has been bred to jump, and he's got the blood to run, and
1:07:03
then you put that with somebody that may be a Viking like me
1:07:08
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:07:09
â¦ Sinead Maynard: is like, "Let's go."
1:07:10
You know?
1:07:10
Yeah.
1:07:10
That is, that is what is amazing.
1:07:13
Now, to your point- That is rare.
1:07:18
It, it is, and I find that, I find myself so lucky to have met the, the horse that
1:07:23
I've met, and it's made it very tricky getting back to the high-performance
1:07:27
level of the sport, because I'm very quick to say, I d- I can't tell you in
1:07:32
the last six years how many horses I've bought with the intention of filling
1:07:37
those shoes that now is lovely in the hunter ring, or is lovely doing lower
1:07:43
level dressage, and is so happy to do it.
1:07:46
Like, I've, I've only, there's only been one horse that I haven't been
1:07:50
able to, to move on that I thought wanted to do something else, and that
1:07:53
honestly we ended up finding out he had some compression in his spine that
1:07:56
we needed, or in his neck that is, is gonna need you know, some attention.
1:08:00
But d- I am very quick to say, "I'm not, we're, we're, there's nothing
1:08:06
about me that's gonna make you do this."
1:08:08
Like, this is, we, you gotta love it, and we gotta love it together.
1:08:12
And I'm happy to go, like with, like the Irish, the young Irish horse that
1:08:15
I have, he's at times loves it, like I, and I don't say this in the way
1:08:19
of like, "My horse loves jumping.
1:08:20
He bolts at everything," because that's like obviously we know that's not cool.
1:08:23
But he, he's a quite a, an independent horse, so he doesn't always like
1:08:27
get the training side of it, so I'm always side dooring with him
1:08:30
because I, the feeling I get from him when he starts jumping is joy.
1:08:35
Like, he is just- Yeah â¦ like joyful.
1:08:37
And so, you know, long answer to your question is that I think
1:08:42
a- like everything, it depends.
1:08:43
I think it depends on the athlete.
1:08:45
I think it depends on the horse.
1:08:46
It depends on the human.
1:08:47
It depends on the intention of the person.
1:08:49
Yeah.
1:08:49
I think it depends on the open-mindedness to set to call it when it, this isn't
1:08:53
working, like this isn't the match.
1:08:55
And one of the things I always say when I first meet a student or there's
1:08:59
somebody that comes to me with their goals says, "Are your goals with this horse?
1:09:03
Because we might have to, if this horse is what y- whatever this horse wants
1:09:07
to do, we're gonna, we're gonna need to find some different skillsets for you.
1:09:10
Let's go to the round pen.
1:09:11
Let's go over here.
1:09:11
Let's do this."
1:09:12
But if your goals are, "I wanna do this level," this horse isn't, isn't the
1:09:17
one, and we'll find a nice life for this horse, and let's find you something else.
1:09:20
Like, that's just the real conversation that has to be had
1:09:23
all the time, and it's really hard.
1:09:26
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think what you, y- you, you, you used a good word there.
1:09:29
You used the word intention, you used the word play, and I think whenever you
1:09:33
team, when- whenever monkeys come into the picture, you know, it, intention of
1:09:38
course is going to drive the whole thing.
1:09:41
And what is intention but emotion?
1:09:44
And what is emotion?
1:09:45
There's two emotions.
1:09:46
There's fear and love, really, basically.
1:09:48
All the shitty ones are some version of fear, and all the- Yeah â¦ lekker,
1:09:52
yummy, irie ones are some version of love.
1:09:56
So my feeling with a lot of these things is- Does it feel
1:10:01
like it's coming from love?
1:10:03
Mm-hmm.
1:10:03
Or does it feel like it's coming from fear?
1:10:05
And it can get funky in all of our lives because we're funky monkeys.
1:10:10
And God didn't invent horses to have monkeys riding around on them.
1:10:15
That was monkeys that came up with that idea, you know?
1:10:17
And there were some fairly practical reasons for it.
1:10:20
Although lots of monkeys have paid the price.
1:10:23
But- â¦ of course, horses have, too.
1:10:25
Y- then you said something else, which is can it feel like play?
1:10:29
Mm.
1:10:29
And I think that's, which is a form of love, right?
1:10:32
And when you're describing your Irish horse, you know, we, for example,
1:10:35
Whether it's for the therapeutic side or for the dressage side, because we
1:10:39
always encourage people to do both.
1:10:41
You know, we'll say, "Well, do you maybe want to give
1:10:43
something back with this horse?
1:10:44
Maybe this horse would actually like to be in service."
1:10:47
Horses do respond well to that.
1:10:48
We, we have aâ¦
1:10:50
We, we noticed a lot of depressed horses.
1:10:52
We noticed a lot of explosive horses.
1:10:54
We noticed a lot of unhappy horses of one kind or another, and that there
1:10:59
was often this kind of antagonistic relationship between owner and horse.
1:11:03
Doâ¦
1:11:03
It, it, no matter what theâ¦
1:11:04
Including in the therapeutic world.
1:11:06
Mm â¦ horses are playful.
1:11:08
So we came up with this thing because we had to keep our horses for a while in a
1:11:12
very imperfect situation, where we were in Germany, and we couldn't afford to buy a
1:11:17
farm, and we'd just moved there, so we had to keep them in a regular yard, and they
1:11:22
don't really put them out in the winter.
1:11:23
We're like, "Shit."
1:11:24
Mm.
1:11:24
You know, our horses come from- Yeah â¦ Texas.
1:11:25
They live out all the time.
1:11:27
Okay, what are we gonna do?
1:11:27
So we came up with the idea of crazy time, and so luckily one thing you could
1:11:32
do in this indoor arena was free jump.
1:11:35
And because our horses are an integrated herd, we could free jump
1:11:38
them in, like, groups of up to four- Mm
1:11:40
even though the ar- arena wasn't huge, and we'd change it every two minutes.
1:11:44
We'd make the jumps look weird and funky.
1:11:46
We'd put teddy bears in them.
1:11:47
We'd chuck yoga balls at them.
1:11:48
We'd, you know, whatever, and the horses got, really got into it.
1:11:51
They'd go in there, and they'd, like, see the first jump and go.
1:11:53
And then the, for two minutes, then they stand, and they look
1:11:56
at you going, "That all you got?"
1:11:58
And then we'd have to change it- Yeah â¦ and make it kind of
1:12:00
interesting again in some way.
1:12:02
And we found that this was the golden key and that this initiated play.
1:12:06
And then we realized, oh, my gosh, we could, we can teach this way because
1:12:09
you can teach horsemanship this way.
1:12:11
You can teach about fitness this way.
1:12:12
You can take a group of schoolchildren in there and say,
1:12:15
"Which horse is the fastest?
1:12:16
I don't know.
1:12:17
How do you calculate speed?
1:12:18
Well, you got to walk the long side.
1:12:19
How many meters is that?
1:12:21
Then we got to time how long it takes the horse to go down.
1:12:23
Then we do a little calculation on our cell phone.
1:12:25
Distance over time gets speed.
1:12:27
We've just taught you some physics, just taught you some math."
1:12:29
And we realized, oh, my gosh, you know, if, if we hadn't been in this dilemma of-
1:12:32
Mm â¦ how to get play in a non-playful situation, we wouldn't have stumbled
1:12:37
into this really good use of play.
1:12:39
So i- is that a long-winded way, 'cause I'm long-winded, of saying
1:12:44
that as long as it sort of feels a bit like play for the pony, it's okay.
1:12:50
Mm.
1:12:51
And as long as it doesn't, it's sort of not okay.
1:12:55
But we can look at strategies to bring it back there.
1:12:58
Sure.
1:12:59
Is that sort ofâ¦
1:13:00
Does that sort of make it-
1:13:02
Sinead Maynard: 100%.
1:13:03
And I think with that, there's the caveat of a skill set, but I
1:13:08
think skill sets for riders can be learned in very, I think most horses
1:13:13
like patterns, and skill sets- Mm
1:13:15
can be learned in a very safe and repetitive non-threatening way.
1:13:21
Like, we do a lot- Yeah â¦ of cavaletti work.
1:13:24
You know, like, because I don't think, I think the caveat for that is not, like,
1:13:29
when you are competing, and you are jumping jumps, and you're riding horses at
1:13:33
speed, you gotta have the skill set too.
1:13:35
You can't just be like, "This is gonna be great fun," you know?
1:13:37
Yeah, sure.
1:13:38
Because that becomes un-fun for the horse.
1:13:40
So- Well, indeed â¦ I think that's the only thing, I think, that, that
1:13:44
when that play meets the, the kind of, the discipline of the skill set that
1:13:50
you need to do anything, you know?
1:13:51
Like, that's a safety comfort part, right?
1:13:53
Like- 100% â¦ you gotta be safe, and you gotta be balanced.
1:13:55
But, but- And then you can play
1:13:57
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but skills, so interesting with love and fear.
1:14:00
So a new skill, let's say I asked you to learn
1:14:04
German.
1:14:05
Maybe you speak German.
1:14:06
Yeah.
1:14:06
But you probably go, "Ugh," you know?
1:14:08
And then you ask me to learn- That
1:14:09
Sinead Maynard: is German, isn't it?
1:14:10
Ugh.
1:14:11
Rupert Isaacson: That- well, that's, it's, it's, it's North Central
1:14:13
German from the Harz Mountains-
1:14:14
and it means, "Milk, no sugar, please."
1:14:16
The, the, anything that's new and unfamiliar, of course, presses the
1:14:22
amygdala in the brain of a mammal, and a reptile, actually and we feel
1:14:26
unsafe, and therefore we resist, and therefore we're in a state of fear.
1:14:29
And what you described there with skillsets and patterns, of course,
1:14:32
is nothing more than familiarity.
1:14:35
And as soon as we have enough experiences with something that's unfamiliar, then
1:14:39
it becomes familiar, and we have a series of good experiences with this,
1:14:44
and then we begin to get some dopamine and effectively some pleasure in- Mm-hmm
1:14:48
â¦ the execution of these things 'cause they kind of feel good, whether it's Tai Chi
1:14:53
or yoga or Cavaletti or a, an in-hand pattern or whatever or, or jumping.
1:14:58
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:14:59
Rupert Isaacson: Then pleasure, and then of course it goes to play.
1:15:01
Then the skillsets- Mm â¦ and the play can meet and ex- stasis can occur
1:15:08
because we no longer have to think about, "Well, what am I doing with
1:15:11
my inside leg and my outside rein?"
1:15:12
Yeah.
1:15:12
Or the horse doesn't have to think, "What am I doing with my front legs?"
1:15:15
Or it, it, it, it comes together, and theyâ¦
1:15:19
That I can totally see, and I can totally see how that can absolutely
1:15:23
occur in the competitive re- with a certain personality of horse and rider.
1:15:28
Mm-hmm.
1:15:28
There was another word, though, that was used, and this is the one that
1:15:31
of course is the big red flag for everybody, and it is the one that I
1:15:34
think we all have to address 'cause we're all part of it, and it's industry.
1:15:37
It's the word industry.
1:15:39
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:15:39
Rupert Isaacson: It's, you said, "In the horse industry."
1:15:42
Yeah.
1:15:42
And, and- I was like, "Why
1:15:42
Sinead Maynard: did I say that?"
1:15:43
Rupert Isaacson: Well, because- I, yeah â¦ well, frankly, but there is one.
1:15:46
Yeah, sure.
1:15:47
And, and we are part of it.
1:15:49
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:15:49
Rupert Isaacson: So what industry do we wanna bequeath?
1:15:55
We're now under a lot of public scrutiny.
1:15:57
Mm.
1:15:57
Everybody wants to stop us from riding.
1:16:00
They want to stop us from owning animals at all.
1:16:03
I think the service animals might be safe.
1:16:06
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:16:06
Rupert Isaacson: But certainly the idea of sitting on a horse with a bit
1:16:10
in the mouth and all of that, we're under pressure like never before.
1:16:16
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:16:16
Rupert Isaacson: And many people philosophically say, "Well, there
1:16:21
should not be a horse industry."
1:16:23
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:16:23
" Rupert Isaacson: There shouldn't be an- a chicken industry.
1:16:26
There shouldn'tâ¦"
1:16:26
You know, blah, blah, blah.
1:16:27
So I don't expect you to come up with the answer to that,
1:16:32
but what are your thoughts?
1:16:36
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:16:36
Rupert Isaacson: Just free flow a
1:16:37
Sinead Maynard: little bit.
1:16:37
Ooh, I have aâ¦
1:16:38
Yeah, free flow.
1:16:39
I like it.
1:16:40
I mean, it's like- Like, run out
1:16:41
Rupert Isaacson: of
1:16:41
Sinead Maynard: the room.
1:16:42
Rupert Isaacson: I don't want to answer that question.
1:16:43
Bye.
1:16:43
Sinead Maynard: See you later.
1:16:44
Gotta go.
1:16:45
I think, I think it's super interesting, and I think that's a, a challenging
1:16:49
a place, and I think we're all thinking about it all the time.
1:16:52
I think we're, we'reâ¦
1:16:53
In eventing right now, it's a little bit interesting, is that- Is that
1:16:59
it's still, there's no money in it.
1:17:02
So, so it keeps it
1:17:04
Rupert Isaacson: kind
1:17:04
Sinead Maynard: of- Despite
1:17:04
Rupert Isaacson: the fact that it costs a lot of money to do.
1:17:05
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:17:06
Yeah.
1:17:06
Yeah.
1:17:07
I might say it's, it's the horse hobby.
1:17:08
B- so, you know, like for us, we, we- That's true â¦ m- make
1:17:12
our living teaching, you know- Yeah â¦ teaching clinics.
1:17:15
And, and for me, c- competition has given me my, my education, my
1:17:19
vocabulary- Mm-hmm â¦ my ability toâ¦
1:17:21
Like, I think one of the things I wanna give back is there's a whole lot of
1:17:25
people that compete and ride horses that really probably shouldn't be, or
1:17:28
need to be a lot better, or need to have a different idea or an intention,
1:17:31
or permission to behave a different way, and that you can do it well.
1:17:36
Ooh.
1:17:37
You know what I'm saying?
1:17:37
Like,
1:17:38
Rupert Isaacson: you get- Explore that train of thought, please.
1:17:40
Sinead Maynard: Well,
1:17:40
Rupert Isaacson: there- Permission to do it, yeah
1:17:42
â¦ Sinead Maynard: th- there is a lot of old school training and techniques,
1:17:44
and, and especially there's a lot of female riders that think they need
1:17:47
to be braver, tougher, stronger.
1:17:48
You know, it's, it's not unusual to have a very, like there's a lot of male, and
1:17:53
I don't mean to be like male/female, but there's a lot of male trainers, and a
1:17:56
lot of females that are riding under them that they think they need to just get
1:18:00
it done, tough it out, do the thing, and it's like there's, that is scientifically
1:18:05
proven, like that does not work.
1:18:06
Like, it does not work emotionally for, for the riders or for the horses.
1:18:10
There's, like, you can have pr- like instead of approach and
1:18:14
retreat, retreat and approach.
1:18:15
You know, like these, all these sorts of different ways to learn, and when
1:18:17
you tell someone, "This is the way to do it," the relief that I see- Mm
1:18:22
over and over and over again, when there's always a step backwards.
1:18:26
Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's back up.
1:18:28
The, when I tell somebody, "Look, like, I personally would not compete your horse.
1:18:33
Like, if you asked me tomorrow to get on that horse and ride it at the level that
1:18:37
you're going," which is like maybe novice, maybe beginner novice, "I wouldn't do it.
1:18:39
Like, it doesn't check the pre-check flight list.
1:18:42
I wouldn't do it.
1:18:42
I'd be in the round pen.
1:18:43
I'd be in a repulter."
1:18:44
Like, and the relief, like, "Oh," like, "Oh."
1:18:48
You know?
1:18:49
And-
1:18:49
Rupert Isaacson: Does that bring relief or, or does it sometimes
1:18:51
also bring, "How dare you?"
1:18:53
Sinead Maynard: I've rarely gotten a, "How dare you?"
1:18:56
Mm.
1:18:56
And I would say that at this point, Tick and I have
1:18:59
clinicked enough that people- Mm
1:19:01
know what they're getting into.
1:19:02
Well,
1:19:02
Rupert Isaacson: respect your judgment.
1:19:02
Yeah.
1:19:03
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:19:03
When, whenâ¦
1:19:04
And the industry, the industry- Yeah â¦ knows there's a problem.
1:19:08
Mm-hmm.
1:19:08
And so people are now, for the first time, actually in the last few years,
1:19:12
way more interested about what Tick or myself have to say, or people
1:19:17
that are kind of coming at it from a different way, because you can't now.
1:19:20
Like, the sticks are gonna go away.
1:19:22
Like, you're not- Mm â¦ gonna be able to use a whip in competition.
1:19:24
You already can't in a lot of ways.
1:19:25
You can't use it in a disciplinary action, which is fine, which is great, you know?
1:19:28
And so it's like, "Hey, you can't do that anymore, so would you like
1:19:31
to know that there's another way, and actually it might work better?"
1:19:34
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:19:34
Sinead Maynard: Let's, let's try.
1:19:36
Rupert Isaacson: Talk- talk toâ¦
1:19:36
Yeah, you said retreat and approach.
1:19:38
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:19:39
Yeah.
1:19:40
Def-
1:19:40
Rupert Isaacson: define, please.
1:19:42
Sinead Maynard: So, so, like if, again, it's a, it's one of those
1:19:46
things where you kind of, people, like, they totally miss the moment
1:19:51
where the horse goes, "I'm concerned."
1:19:53
And they barge through it until the horse either has to run away, bolt, stop, do
1:19:56
something bigger to catch your attention.
1:19:58
And so we're always talking about, like, see if you can find the moment that
1:20:04
the horse goes, "Ugh," and then back them up Back 'em up and be the person
1:20:09
that said, "Yeah, I think you're right.
1:20:10
Let's take a second."
1:20:11
And then you find that curiosity, like you found when you had
1:20:14
the crazy time with the horses.
1:20:16
You throw a bunch of stuff in there, and they're like, "We're good."
1:20:17
Throw something else out, and then all of a sudden they're like,
1:20:20
"I think we can take a step."
1:20:21
You're like, "You sure?"
1:20:21
They take a step.
1:20:22
Mm.
1:20:22
They take another step.
1:20:23
They take another step.
1:20:24
You get that moment, "Oh, I, yeah, I think you're right.
1:20:25
I think we should back up."
1:20:26
All of a sudden you ha- have this horse that not only is building
1:20:29
their own confidence, they start to build confidence in you.
1:20:31
Mm-hmm.
1:20:32
That you hear them, that you see them, that you get it.
1:20:35
And like, w- when we teach our horses with this, with banks, with ditches,
1:20:38
with water, like that moment, and this would be the change, that
1:20:41
moment we start them, you feel them going, "I think I should jump this."
1:20:44
Turn them around.
1:20:46
Turn them around.
1:20:46
Walk 'em back away until, until they're go, "No, like, like I wanna jump this.
1:20:50
I wanna go."
1:20:51
You know, no leg, no hand, like that's fine.
1:20:54
You know?
1:20:54
Like, let them stop.
1:20:55
Let them think.
1:20:56
And it's not, you wanna find the step 100 feet away from the bank,
1:20:59
100 feet away from the ditch, 100â¦
1:21:01
You know, like that's where I think, you know, people like it or, or, or not, like
1:21:06
that's where I think clicker training is so interesting and fun because it teaches
1:21:09
people to reward the right thing, right?
1:21:11
Mm-hmm.
1:21:12
It teaches people to, to see and to look and to watch, right?
1:21:14
And as opposed to it's normally when the horse is finally doing the big
1:21:18
gesture, there's been 15 gestures before it, you just missed it.
1:21:21
You know?
1:21:22
Like- Mm.
1:21:23
So I think those types of- Mm â¦ training and the way that you
1:21:27
can direct people and hone people's eyes into seeing things and reading the
1:21:31
horses, like it's, it's just so fun.
1:21:34
Like, it's just- Mm â¦ it's just so fun.
1:21:36
It takes longer, but does it?
1:21:39
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but does it?
1:21:40
Yeah.
1:21:40
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:21:41
Like, does it?
1:21:41
Because it catches up.
1:21:42
Like, you can get away with it often- Absolutely â¦ for a little
1:21:44
while, and then there comes a point where it just doesn't work anymore.
1:21:48
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:21:48
Sinead Maynard: And I guess that would be like where, where I would imagine,
1:21:52
like if you were to look at myself or to look at Tick and our careers and at
1:21:56
this point now, they'd say, "Well, you don't have a horse at the top level."
1:21:59
And I'm like, "No, because the last five we've called it way early and the horses
1:22:04
are very happy doing something else."
1:22:05
Yeah.
1:22:06
We didn't end up getting to the two-star level and falling, or three-star level
1:22:09
and them stopping or blah, blah, blah.
1:22:10
Like, it's just, there was just w- they weren't gonna do it anyway.
1:22:13
Like, or maybe we'd get there and it'd be super un-fun.
1:22:17
Rupert Isaacson: As you may know, if you've been following my work,
1:22:19
we are also horsey folk here.
1:22:21
And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of
1:22:26
the old classical dressage masters.
1:22:30
This is something which is often very confusing for people.
1:22:33
We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear.
1:22:38
If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and
1:22:43
really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
1:22:49
com Sign up as a premium member.
1:22:51
and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero
1:22:56
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground.
1:23:01
And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to.
1:23:06
Heliosharmony.
1:23:07
com to unlock the secrets of the old masters.
1:23:12
What's, what's interesting there is this element of play and pleasure
1:23:17
for the horse keeps coming into your conversation, and I love this idea.
1:23:21
You know, I was, I was looking at a, a video of Lucinda Green, who I
1:23:25
know a bit and is one of my heroes.
1:23:28
And she was teaching someone with a horse that had a stopping issue, and she was
1:23:31
doing exactly what you describe, saying-
1:23:33
Sinead Maynard: Mm
1:23:34
Rupert Isaacson: "Back 'em up.
1:23:35
Let 'em look.
1:23:36
Back 'em away.
1:23:36
Let 'em look.
1:23:38
Only when they give you a signal that they want to go forward."
1:23:42
Mm-hmm.
1:23:42
And this was completely outside of how you and I were-
1:23:46
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
1:23:46
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: brought up with cross country jumping with.
1:23:48
But that said, out hunting- In England because the jumps are so big.
1:23:53
I mean, you've probably hunted- Mm-hmm
1:23:53
around Middleburg and Virginia.
1:23:55
Mm-hmm.
1:23:55
But the jumps are about 3'3".
1:23:56
Mm-hmm.
1:23:57
And they're mostly coops that you can see the other side of.
1:24:00
Mm-hmm.
1:24:00
You know, those massive hedges that we grew up in and you can't
1:24:04
see the other side, and sometimes- Yep â¦ you have to go, and
1:24:06
sometimes there's a nasty surprise.
1:24:07
Mm-hmm.
1:24:07
And you have to rely on the horse getting you out of trouble to some degree.
1:24:10
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
1:24:11
Rupert Isaacson: But so you can't do it on a horse that doesn't love it.
1:24:12
But you'd never start horses by throwing them at that sort of stuff.
1:24:17
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:24:17
Rupert Isaacson: And by the time they were ready for it, you'd always
1:24:20
have the backup of uncle and auntie horses to give them the confidence.
1:24:26
Absolutely.
1:24:26
Because everybody knew that at that level outside of comp- Like, way more people
1:24:29
get hurt out hunting than in competition because there's just so many variables.
1:24:32
You know, just stuff you can't control.
1:24:34
Mm-hmm.
1:24:35
And so it's interesting how the types of technique that you described
1:24:42
were actually sort of allowed-
1:24:43
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm â¦ in
1:24:44
Rupert Isaacson: the hunt field, but were not allowed in the competition field.
1:24:49
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
1:24:49
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
1:24:50
Sinead Maynard: People are so literal.
1:24:51
They're so direct line.
1:24:52
That's like the problem, is that you end up, youâ¦
1:24:55
I had this, the, this lady here for a while, and, and she was so, she was,
1:24:58
she's a, she owns a, a lot of horses in, in a few different things for
1:25:01
a few different people, and she's, she's one of those people that's,
1:25:03
like, highly frustrated all the time.
1:25:04
Mm.
1:25:05
And I realized that the reason she was is that she's just, she has
1:25:08
horses, but she's not a horse person.
1:25:09
She thinks like people instead of like a horse, and that's
1:25:11
incredibly frustrating at times.
1:25:13
And so, like, if you-
1:25:15
Rupert Isaacson: Monkeys and ponies,
1:25:16
Sinead Maynard: yeah.
1:25:16
Yeah, and it's like that c- that age-old thing, like you
1:25:20
have to show them who's boss.
1:25:21
You ha- Wow â¦ if you let them stop once, they'll stop all the time, you know?
1:25:24
Yeah.
1:25:24
And you're like, "That's crazy.
1:25:24
That's bananas."
1:25:25
And- But it's not bananas- â¦ it's not, and it's not
1:25:27
Rupert Isaacson: true â¦ if you've been told that enough times, because- Totally
1:25:29
â¦ that's how belief systems get created.
1:25:30
Totally.
1:25:30
Right?
1:25:30
Yeah.
1:25:32
Sinead Maynard: Well, and especially, I mean, I remember growing up, and again,
1:25:35
the, the man who will not be named that I, I rode for, you know, I mean, I remember
1:25:39
being at competitions and him saying, "If you don't come home clear and inside
1:25:42
the time, you don't have a ride home."
1:25:43
Like- Yeah â¦ the end.
1:25:45
You, you know, that's it.
1:25:45
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I had people saying that sort of thing
1:25:46
to me, too, and it's- Ugh â¦ yeah.
1:25:48
Sinead Maynard: And now I look back, and it's so funny because I was
1:25:50
riding horses that he wouldn't get on.
1:25:51
Yeah.
1:25:51
So he was just using me to do that.
1:25:54
Yeah.
1:25:54
And at the time, I thought, "Man, he really trusts me.
1:25:57
I'm a really good rider."
1:25:59
He's like, "You're an idiot."
1:25:59
Rupert Isaacson: Well, there probably was an element of that as well.
1:26:02
It was probably- Yeah â¦ ambiguous.
1:26:03
It was probably both.
1:26:04
Yeah.
1:26:04
You know?
1:26:05
But-
1:26:05
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah
1:26:05
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: it could've been done so much better.
1:26:07
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
1:26:08
Sure.
1:26:08
Rupert Isaacson: You, you've talked, y- you use we, and you've
1:26:11
referred many times in this conversation to Tick, your husband.
1:26:14
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:26:14
Rupert Isaacson: And I think let's talk about him a, a bit and yourâ¦
1:26:18
I'd love to get him on the show, by the way, s- ask him to drop out.
1:26:20
Yeah.
1:26:20
But I'd like to know, can you just sort of talk a little bit about his
1:26:24
work, and then talk a little bit about how you synthesize your work together?
1:26:28
Because I think- Mm â¦ this is something that's rather unusual, Mm
1:26:32
and I think quite educational for people.
1:26:35
Just-
1:26:36
Sinead Maynard: Sure
1:26:36
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: yeah, Tick, and then Tick, Tick's work and then
1:26:38
your and Tick's work together.
1:26:40
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, so, Tick got really into kind of like the
1:26:44
natural horsemanship side of things.
1:26:45
He's, it's, he, his dad, His dad was a show jumper.
1:26:48
His dad still rides, he's an incredible rider at 83.
1:26:51
And his mom, And is Canadian,
1:26:53
Rupert Isaacson: correct?
1:26:53
Sinead Maynard: Is Canadian, yeah.
1:26:54
They're from Vancouver.
1:26:55
And his mom is a dressage judge, so and they, he's one of three
1:26:59
brothers, and so all the brothers, they had to get their A in pony club.
1:27:02
Like, that was, like, mandatory.
1:27:03
The other two brothers don't ride, but it needed to be that everybody was educated
1:27:06
enough to have the conversations, right?
1:27:08
So Tick did some show jumping, and then ended up eventing a little bit, and he was
1:27:14
also doing modern pentathlon at the time.
1:27:16
So he actually went to the Pan American Games for, as a pentathlete for Canada.
1:27:21
So he was only doing courses kind of on the side for fun, and then he was in,
1:27:26
I think, in Mexico trying to qualify for the Olympics in 2008, and he had a
1:27:32
rotational fall and broke his collarbone, and so missed out on the Olympics.
1:27:36
And then he kind of went on this â¦ He was devastated, obviously, and he decided
1:27:42
to kind of go on this soul-searching thing and worked for all these different people.
1:27:47
So he went to Love, Texas, and worked for a cowboy out there, and he went and
1:27:51
worked for David and Karen O'Connor.
1:27:52
He went and worked for Ian Kozinski.
1:27:54
He tried to work for Ian Miller, but they found out he was journaling and
1:27:57
chronicling hi- and so he lasted a day, and then they said, "If you're
1:28:00
writing, you can't work here."
1:28:02
And and anyway, so he ended up with, at, down at David and Karen.
1:28:07
That's where we met, actually.
1:28:07
He was there for a few months and saw that they started all of their horses
1:28:11
in the round pen and in a rope halter, and he was really fascinated by it.
1:28:14
And long story short, he kind of ended up taking that to a bit of an art form.
1:28:22
Like, that's what he loves doing.
1:28:24
And he always up for a challenge.
1:28:26
You know, like, he ended up, what, doing the, the Roads to the Horse
1:28:30
in 2024 and 2025, the colt starting championships, and, and won that.
1:28:34
But he was just doing it as a challenge and for fun, and but he
1:28:38
came in with that attitude, and so it actually went quite well.
1:28:41
And yeah, so he, he really has kind of over the last, I don't know, 10 to 12
1:28:47
years honed in on the behavioral skills.
1:28:49
He's a real researcher.
1:28:51
I mean, he's like you.
1:28:51
Like, he loves reading and studying and learning everything there is to learn,
1:28:55
and then he goes and he plays in the round pen, and then he comes back and
1:28:57
he writes about it or reads about it.
1:28:58
And, you know, he's written two books and but it's not like, we're different
1:29:02
in the senses that I would â¦ I love the barn management, I love training.
1:29:06
I would ride eight to 10 horses a day.
1:29:08
You know, like, I wanna go do all these things, and he's like, "I wanna sit by
1:29:11
the round pen with my cup of coffee.
1:29:12
I wanna work with a horse, and then I wanna write about it."
1:29:15
And then, you know, and so it's been â¦ And, and then he's, he really
1:29:19
has taken then a few horses that have been quite challenging, i.e.
1:29:23
like not going for other professionals or gotten to a certain level and
1:29:26
have stopped going, and takenâ¦
1:29:29
He has no, like Tick is one of those, he's very interesting.
1:29:31
He has very, very, very little ego.
1:29:33
And he- and that can be bridged with he's quite confident in a very quiet way.
1:29:38
So he doesn't care if it takes six months or a year to take a horse
1:29:43
and do whatever he needs to do.
1:29:44
He'll go out.
1:29:44
Like, the mare that he's riding now that's going at the three-star level,
1:29:48
I mean, for six months he didn't, he just rode her out on the trails.
1:29:51
Like, it was not, you know, he never even set foot in the ring
1:29:54
'cause it's not what she needed.
1:29:55
And so he's really developed a reputation for doing a lot of that type of work.
1:30:00
And he still pairs it with the competition.
1:30:02
You know, he, but he has one competition horse.
1:30:04
He does a lot of teaching and clinicing.
1:30:06
He's an annoyingly good jump jockey.
1:30:09
Like, so that helps as well.
1:30:10
His foundation of just tech- like, of balance is annoying.
1:30:16
So he's, he's a very empathetic and ver- like, horses really like him because he's
1:30:21
very naturally balanced, and you can see a good stride to a fence, and he's also,
1:30:25
Yeah, he really, he really pays attention to the psychology of how horses think and
1:30:29
how they learn, and, and mo- and animals in general is really his, his go-to.
1:30:33
So it's really fun.
1:30:34
Like, the conversations we have are actually really fun.
1:30:37
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:30:37
But, and then, and then so people can come and obviously keep their horses with you
1:30:40
and train with you, and then that meansâ¦
1:30:42
No?
1:30:42
Or-
1:30:43
Sinead Maynard: We, we really have stopped taking horses in tr- we have,
1:30:47
like, three horses in training at the
1:30:48
Rupert Isaacson: moment.
1:30:48
Oh, okay, 'cause I, I just got on your website and it said that you people could.
1:30:51
I know.
1:30:51
Okay.
1:30:51
It's a
1:30:51
Sinead Maynard: lie.
1:30:52
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:30:53
So right.
1:30:54
Well, honestly-
1:30:55
Sinead Maynard: Don't read everything.
1:30:56
Don't believe everything on the World Wide Web.
1:30:57
Rupert Isaacson: Ho- honestly, I am of the same mind.
1:31:00
We used to do that.
1:31:01
We used to take quite a lot of horses in- Mm-hmm
1:31:03
for training, and so on.
1:31:04
It's really good experience to do.
1:31:06
It- Mm-hmm â¦ it massively hones your ride.
1:31:08
And we'll, like you, we'll take the odd one if it comes- Mm-hmm â¦ the
1:31:12
right, yeah, I don't know, shows up- Yeah â¦ in some sort of way that, yeah.
1:31:15
But it's a lot of pressure.
1:31:18
And because you, you, you are taking people's money, and you sort of do
1:31:23
have to deliver to a certain degree.
1:31:25
Mm-hmm â¦ even if it's upfront clear that it should take the time it
1:31:29
takes, and da, da, da, and da, da, da.
1:31:30
There's also- Mm-hmm â¦ reasonable expectation that people have
1:31:32
when they're paying for a service, and all those things.
1:31:34
So it's, I'm- I'm not surprised that you sort of moved away from that a little bit.
1:31:39
But nonetheless- Yeah
1:31:40
people can, I guess the point I was trying to make, is people can
1:31:43
come and benefit from the sort of Sinead-Tick combi- combo thing.
1:31:49
Mm-hmm.
1:31:50
If I was coming to you, and I think of, I'm just imagining a
1:31:53
listener or, or someone watching this on YouTube, going, "All right.
1:31:56
Oh, I'd quite like to give that a go," you know?
1:31:58
"She seems nice.
1:31:58
He sounds cool."
1:31:59
What would I experience, do you think?
1:32:04
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:32:05
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:32:05
Just, yeah.
1:32:06
Sinead Maynard: So I think l- a lot of the ways right now, and w-
1:32:09
and it's interesting that you say, 'cause we're kind of always in this
1:32:13
industry evolving and reshaping how we're, how we're doing things.
1:32:17
But basically right now we're teaching a lot of clinics.
1:32:19
Like, Tick is teaching a lot of clinics.
1:32:21
Like, he's traveling- Mm â¦ a ton.
1:32:22
I teach more here on the property, so people can ship in for lessons.
1:32:27
People, Tick does the same thing, they can ship in for lessons here with Tick.
1:32:30
And you k- and to be honest, Tick and I are not weird about, like some people
1:32:34
ride with Tick for three months, and then he'll be like, "I actually think now
1:32:37
your skill set is gonna help this person in the direction that they wanna go."
1:32:40
Yeah.
1:32:40
Or I'll, and we've had horses that have come in for me to ride and
1:32:42
compete, and I'm like, "I don't, I can't ride the left side of this
1:32:45
horse, so like, why don't you do this?"
1:32:47
And, Yeah â¦ and so we really interchange back and forth that way.
1:32:51
And so, so basically it just depends on what the need, what the need is really.
1:32:56
Mm-hmm â¦ whether it's just getting a horse started in, in the round pen, or
1:33:00
developing your skills there, or if it's a competitive track, something like that.
1:33:03
So the teaching at home is that, the clinics, and then you know,
1:33:06
the other elements of things that we, we really do is you know, we
1:33:10
try and get the information out.
1:33:11
Tick does a lot with Noelle Floyd and masterclasses there.
1:33:14
Mm-hmm.
1:33:15
I'm doing a lot of commentary now, which is just kind of fun and a
1:33:19
good way to get information out when people are watching sport.
1:33:22
And I try- Mm â¦ and deliver, I try and put m- kind of the, the- the
1:33:27
horse first lens on how I'm discussing what I'm seeing in the commentary
1:33:31
at, at the high performance level of sport so that that message gets out.
1:33:34
Who do you do that for?
1:33:35
C- so, a couple of different companies.
1:33:38
So basically I do Kentucky, so, that is on USEF Network basically.
1:33:42
Mm-hmm.
1:33:42
And then we work with a large production team that's there.
1:33:44
I do the US Open which I think is gonna be on Clip My Horse.
1:33:48
Don't quote me on that one.
1:33:49
Mm-hmm.
1:33:49
And I did Maryland Five Star when that was up.
1:33:51
So most of the time it's Horse & Country or Clip My Horse or USEF Network.
1:33:54
And I do that work, which is really fun.
1:33:57
I love that.
1:33:57
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that is an interesting point, 'cause
1:33:59
yeah, then you're in the journalism field at that point.
1:34:01
Mm-hmm.
1:34:01
And then, yeah, you've got a platform.
1:34:03
Mm-hmm.
1:34:03
What, how do you then get your ideas of joy and play and-
1:34:13
pleasure for the horse, and perhaps using natural horsemanship as well to enhance
1:34:20
what the monkeys and the ponies are doing.
1:34:22
When you're wearing that, "Okay, this person is coming into this fence,"
1:34:27
and- Right â¦ or, "How did that go?"
1:34:28
You know, after the round- Yeah â¦ or whatever.
1:34:30
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
1:34:30
Rupert Isaacson: The, the standard commentary stuff.
1:34:32
Mm-hmm.
1:34:34
Talk to me a little bit about how you, how you weave that in.
1:34:36
Sinead Maynard: Well most of the time I'm, I'm watching the horse, I'm
1:34:38
watching the horse's expression, I'm watching the horse's j- shape change,
1:34:42
I'm watching their ears, and I'm trying to point out, like, this, this
1:34:44
animal's is such an athletic beast.
1:34:47
Like, watch how it changes its balance from a flat-out wingspan, and then it
1:34:50
rocks back into this incredible balance.
1:34:53
It eyesâ¦
1:34:53
You know, you can see its expression lock on the fence.
1:34:56
The rider locks on the fence.
1:34:57
It's laser focus.
1:34:58
It's smooth.
1:34:59
It pats the ground.
1:34:59
It jumps.
1:35:00
It lands.
1:35:00
It's galloping away looking for the next thing.
1:35:02
Like, anything that can get the viewer to start studying the horse, the expression,
1:35:06
how they're using their body, how they're using their feet, the different
1:35:09
mechanics that they start to do, the balances of the horse, of the rider.
1:35:13
'Cause each rider, how they're built, their center of balance
1:35:15
is gonna be slightly different.
1:35:16
Mm-hmm.
1:35:16
And I think one of the things that is paramount in a horse or a rider feeling
1:35:21
safe is balance, and independent balance.
1:35:23
If that horse thinks that you're gonna lose their balance, they are in a fear
1:35:26
state, and the rider, if you feel like your balance depends on that horse,
1:35:29
you're gonna be in a fear state.
1:35:30
And if you guys can be independently balanced, and then
1:35:33
together, like, you're working.
1:35:35
You can, you can work together or independently.
1:35:37
You can get out of the other one's way.
1:35:39
That's your fox hunting, right?
1:35:40
Like, you drop- Mm-hmm â¦ you get to the end of the reins, you get back
1:35:42
there, you're like, "Horse, you got it.
1:35:44
I'm out of your way."
1:35:44
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:35:46
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:35:46
Rupert Isaacson: That's me over every jump.
1:35:47
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:35:48
Yeah.
1:35:48
I'm like, "And here with a cab.
1:35:49
Good for you.
1:35:50
Good luck."
1:35:50
Yeah â¦ it's, you know, like, pointing out all of those sorts of
1:35:53
things are, are really fascinating.
1:35:55
Like, talking to people about, you know, how the course designer laid
1:35:59
the jumps where they jumped, how the w- course designer thought that
1:36:02
the horse was gonna read this fresh.
1:36:03
Like Pierre Le Gruel who designed Paris, and he designed the Maryland Five Star,
1:36:08
told me a story about how he used to gallop along the dunes and the beaches in
1:36:11
France, and he used to go up to the top of these dunes, and there'd be this brush,
1:36:15
and the horses would just, like, gallop up and just loft over the brush, and
1:36:19
they just jumped it so beautifully, and he just remembered that as a child, and
1:36:22
then he built this complex at Fair Hill.
1:36:25
And we walked it, and we thought, "What in God's name did he build?
1:36:28
This is insane.
1:36:29
The horses aren't gonna read it."
1:36:30
And he was dead on.
1:36:32
Like, the, he's like, "No, the horses are gonna gallop up to the top of that
1:36:34
hill, and they're gonna brush over the top of this thing, and it's just
1:36:37
like how they did it out, you know, when I was growing up and a kid."
1:36:39
And so- That part to me is really, really fun.
1:36:43
I spend a lot of time researching.
1:36:44
I know a lot about the backgrounds of the riders, m- more than, like, their stats.
1:36:48
Like, there's companies that do stats, but I know, like, this person's a concert
1:36:51
pianist, this person went to this school, this person has two kids at home and they
1:36:55
didn't go this level until they were 45.
1:36:57
You know, like, this personâ¦
1:36:59
And so it's bringing the story because I think when you can get the
1:37:03
horses, you can get some education, you can get some inspiration, and you
1:37:06
get the human interest side behind it, it's just- Mm â¦ captivating.
1:37:09
It's just, it's just incredible.
1:37:11
You know, like, a- and when you get to that level of
1:37:15
sport, there's always a story.
1:37:16
Like, there's always a story.
1:37:18
And, and I love that, and I love, I love watching really excellent instinctual
1:37:25
riding, and I love watching these animals that have been prepared so
1:37:28
beautifully, and then they just get to show up and play this game that is,
1:37:31
like- Mm â¦ fucking phenomenal to watch.
1:37:33
Mm-hmm.
1:37:34
See, I'm obviously, like, a bit of a junkie, but yeah, I love it.
1:37:36
And it, it is hard.
1:37:37
Like, there's parts of it that are hard when you see
1:37:39
something that's not going well.
1:37:41
You know, I have to do a lot of research on the you know, what goes into place as
1:37:46
far as if there's dangerous riding that's happening, how they're getting pulled up,
1:37:50
where the vets are, where the TD is, what the next steps are so that if people on
1:37:53
the screen are kind of seeing something, I say, "Okay, like, now here's the chain
1:37:56
of effects that's gonna happen right now, is that we've got the TD in the box.
1:38:00
There's 16 screens.
1:38:01
They're watching this horse.
1:38:03
There's aâ¦
1:38:03
At minute nine, there's a downhill pull.
1:38:05
The horse is gonna catch its breath.
1:38:06
If it does not, that horse will be pulled up."
1:38:08
And, and, and you'll see it.
1:38:09
The horse will be pulled up or the rider will put their hand up.
1:38:11
You're seeing that a lot more these days, whereas before it was like, "Ride them to
1:38:15
the end, close your eyes, get it done."
1:38:16
And now you'llâ¦
1:38:17
it's, it's in a wonderfully respected thing when a rider willâ¦
1:38:21
We, we saw it just at the past World Championships.
1:38:26
It was the second to last jump, and a, a I think an Italian rider, the horse
1:38:31
jumped the jump, took one funny step.
1:38:32
Heâ¦
1:38:33
I mean, the finish flags were right there.
1:38:34
One more jump, he would've been done for his team.
1:38:36
He jumped off that horse so fast, like, it was incredible, and said,
1:38:39
you know, "Something's not right."
1:38:40
And watching that, you know, like, I don't know, I think it's just the,
1:38:45
the game is, is just evolving and, and changing, and I think there has been
1:38:50
a, a big push because of the spotlight that's on it, and I think that has made
1:38:54
everybody have to get better at it.
1:38:57
I think- If it wants to stick around, it has to get better.
1:38:59
Rupert Isaacson: You, you're a selector now.
1:39:00
Mm-hmm â¦ between you and me, if somebody made that call on an Olympic
1:39:04
ride- Mm-hmm â¦ for Team America-
1:39:07
Sinead Maynard: Sure
1:39:07
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: would that na- would that damage their career?
1:39:12
Sinead Maynard: No.
1:39:13
Rupert Isaacson: But it would have done five, six, seven years ago.
1:39:16
Sinead Maynard: Maybe.
1:39:17
Yeah.
1:39:17
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:39:18
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:39:19
I think now it's w- we are very aware, and I would say, like, we're
1:39:24
watching, like this is, this is like I sound like I'm talking to my kids.
1:39:27
I'm always watching you.
1:39:28
Like, I know what you're doing.
1:39:29
But we watch all of it.
1:39:31
Poor you.
1:39:31
Like, we- So boring.
1:39:32
Yeah.
1:39:33
Like, like, I know when somebody puts up something on social media and
1:39:38
it's not in the right vein, you know?
1:39:40
Mm.
1:39:40
And, and we talk about it.
1:39:41
I'm like that, like, that's not wh- that is, that comes into the selection process.
1:39:46
Like, this, we, we need this role model, we don't need that one.
1:39:50
Right.
1:39:50
We need this person that's putting the welfare of the horse first, not that one.
1:39:54
You know, like, it is a, it's a, there's only five of us.
1:39:56
It's a savvy group of five, like, with, with the, with the right the right
1:40:02
intention for what we're trying to do.
1:40:03
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
1:40:04
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:40:05
Rupert Isaacson: I'd like to get them on the show.
1:40:06
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:40:08
They
1:40:09
Rupert Isaacson: probably wouldn't come on, but,
1:40:10
Sinead Maynard: Just one or two won't.
1:40:11
Rupert Isaacson: A few will.
1:40:11
Well, the, I, I think I'd like to explore this more, because I, I think that what,
1:40:16
you know, there's been some fracturing.
1:40:17
Th- th- there always has been fracturing, obviously, in the horse world.
1:40:20
But there's been some more fracturing, competition bad, you
1:40:24
know, riding for the art good.
1:40:26
Yeah.
1:40:27
Which means competition has to get better, which means it probably does.
1:40:30
Mm-hmm.
1:40:30
Which means that then we then have to then look at the other sides of things
1:40:35
and, you know, within n- not everything in natural horsemanship is good.
1:40:38
Not everything, you know, I mean-
1:40:39
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah
1:40:40
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: w- we can all- I've
1:40:40
Sinead Maynard: seen some pretty crazy Hap- Happy Hackers
1:40:43
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: indeed, indeed.
1:40:44
Probably myself included.
1:40:46
The, s- I mean, hopefully we're all part of trying to make it better.
1:40:52
Sure â¦ but, and I think that's very clear with, with what you're doing.
1:40:55
Th- there is one thing, though, I think that I would like to talk about, I
1:40:58
know we've been talking for a while.
1:40:59
Mm.
1:40:59
But just this final thing, we t- talked a lot about horse welfare.
1:41:02
Mm.
1:41:02
And one of the things I think that- Is, is that the absolute fundamental
1:41:08
thing of that which is almost disappearing, but not in the event
1:41:14
world, unless you think differently.
1:41:17
But I see it disappearing everywhere else, and this is fitness.
1:41:22
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:41:22
Rupert Isaacson: So when you were growing up, when I was growing up the
1:41:26
standard where I grew up was, 'cause the horses were hunting horses, and
1:41:31
they had to go from a slow start in the season in September through to a very
1:41:38
hard action end of the season in March.
1:41:41
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:41:41
Rupert Isaacson: And then at the end of March they'd get thrown in a field,
1:41:44
allowed to, shoes off, just allowed to be horses for several months.
1:41:48
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
1:41:49
Rupert Isaacson: If, if they had a, a, a, a, a summer competition career,
1:41:53
they'd still have at least six weeks off.
1:41:57
Mm-hmm.
1:41:57
But the ideal was 8 to 10 to 12.
1:42:00
And then you bri- start bringing them up in Ju- late June, July, and you do
1:42:03
this very slow walking on the roads to get the tendons used to just being
1:42:10
on a hard surface, but slowly, slowly.
1:42:12
And then over 12 weeks it would gradually, gradually, gradually get to a point where
1:42:17
you could go out and canter for, you know, half an hour or whatever with a- Mm-hmm
1:42:21
â¦ with a walk in the tro- And then you had a horse that's whose, not just whose
1:42:24
cardiovascular, but whose tendons and ligaments would stand up to the work, and
1:42:29
these horses went into their late 20s-
1:42:32
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
1:42:32
Rupert Isaacson: doing it.
1:42:33
Yeah.
1:42:34
And when, you know, then I went to Virginia of course, which was the same
1:42:37
culture, so everyone was doing that.
1:42:39
And then I went to Texas, and I jumped for a bit on the B circuit of the
1:42:45
hunter jumper thing, you know, with a horse that sort of fell into my lap a
1:42:49
bit, who was very, very good in, when I didn't mess him up by overthinking
1:42:55
it.
1:42:57
And I would go into these barns, and I would see horses standing in stalls.
1:43:01
And say, "Oh, what's the story with that one?"
1:43:04
And they'd say, "Oh, he pulled a suspensory."
1:43:06
And I'd go, "Ooh."
1:43:07
I didn't wanna sound not knowledgeable.
1:43:08
I had no idea what a suspensory was.
1:43:10
Mm.
1:43:10
So I was like- Mm-hmm â¦ "Ooh, oh, a suspens-" I run home and
1:43:13
look up, what's a suspensory?
1:43:14
It's a, it's a ligament.
1:43:16
Oh, okay.
1:43:16
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:43:17
Rupert Isaacson: How could they pull it?
1:43:18
And then I- Mm-hmm â¦ started watching, and, and, and then be offering it
1:43:21
to stand in solitary confinement-
1:43:24
Sinead Maynard: Right
1:43:25
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: in a stable.
1:43:26
I'm like, "Can't be right.
1:43:27
Can't be right."
1:43:28
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:43:28
Rupert Isaacson: Like, y- that doesn't work, you know, when you're
1:43:31
a person, when you've bust your leg.
1:43:33
Okay, there's some time on the sofa, but you're up and you're moving it
1:43:36
around as, as quickly as you can.
1:43:37
Mm-hmm.
1:43:37
It's just doesn't sound right.
1:43:38
But how do they do it in the first place?
1:43:40
And then I started going to these shows and I said, "Oh, I see.
1:43:42
The judge wants to see a fat horse.
1:43:45
They don't wanna see a fit horse-" Mm
1:43:47
for whatever reason.
1:43:48
They wanna see it round.
1:43:49
Mm-hmm.
1:43:49
And the people are worried that if they have a fit horse,
1:43:53
it will be too much horse.
1:43:55
So what they do- Mm â¦ is they just don't have a fit horse,
1:43:58
but then when they get to the competition, the horse is explosive.
1:44:02
So they- Mm â¦ lunge the shit out of it for 45 minutes, and then until
1:44:07
it's tired, and they get on its back, and then they do five classes.
1:44:10
Yeah.
1:44:10
And it pulls a ligament, and then it stand- Yeah â¦ and then its reward
1:44:13
is to stand in solitary confinement.
1:44:15
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:44:15
Rupert Isaacson: But I was like-
1:44:15
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
1:44:16
â¦ " Rupert Isaacson: Dude, that's nuts.
1:44:17
How can you even af-" Yeah.
1:44:18
Take a- take aside the, the animal welfare.
1:44:22
Say, how do you afford that?
1:44:23
You know, you got a horse that's out ofâ¦
1:44:24
Well, okay, these people had a lot of money.
1:44:26
All right.
1:44:26
But I was like, "But if you, if you just did the b- the basic fitness stuff, just
1:44:31
trail ride your horses, this won't happen.
1:44:33
Just happy hacking."
1:44:34
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:44:34
" Rupert Isaacson: No, no.
1:44:35
We don't hack.
1:44:35
We don't ride.
1:44:36
We don't trail ride."
1:44:37
Why not?
1:44:39
That's what everyone did growing up.
1:44:40
That's what everyone does.
1:44:41
No, apparently not.
1:44:42
And then of course, more and more through my career, I've realized
1:44:44
that no, no, people don't.
1:44:46
Or-
1:44:47
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
1:44:47
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: they divide off into those who do and those who don't.
1:44:51
Obviously in eventing you can't get away with that.
1:44:53
Right â¦ you know, horses would just break down.
1:44:55
But you are seeing a wider horse industry, industry.
1:44:58
There we go.
1:44:59
And I particularly am an advocate for this in the therapeutic world because
1:45:04
any organism gotta be fit to be happy.
1:45:06
Fit organism's a happy organism.
1:45:08
Non-fit organism- Mm-hmm â¦ not happy
1:45:13
We are making some headway with this.
1:45:15
What are your thoughts on this?
1:45:17
'Cause it's the sort of basic foundation of wellbeing
1:45:20
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:45:21
I mean, I mean, I agree with everything that you're saying.
1:45:24
I mean, I, again, like we don't, we don't run into that problem as much in eventing
1:45:29
because the horses, like fitness is such a, a basis for, for what we're doing.
1:45:34
I mean, I think one of the things that we found was a struggle, and again,
1:45:38
it's something that is changing, is like when everybody got these, you
1:45:42
know, $150,000 GGT footing arenas, and then that's all they would ride on.
1:45:47
Right.
1:45:48
And then they'd go and go cross-country or they're galloping on all-weather
1:45:51
tracks, perfect footing, and then they're going out and they're
1:45:54
the horses are breaking or doing suspensories or you know, whatever
1:45:57
out because they're not riding in a different, different terrain, getting
1:46:01
used to a different terrain all the time.
1:46:02
So like for us, we do a little bit of everything.
1:46:04
We do a little bit of road hacking.
1:46:06
Like our arena is dirt, like our d- Mm-hmm
1:46:09
our sand, but we did spend a lot of money on irrigation so we can, we â¦ Well,
1:46:13
I mean, a lot of money, like $8,000, not $150,000 so we can water it.
1:46:17
Our horses go to the aqua tread.
1:46:19
We have an all-weather gallop that we can use locally, as well as
1:46:22
we go and gallop at another place that has nice gentle terrain.
1:46:25
So like the all-weather gallop, I think it takes not even two minutes to get
1:46:28
up to the top of it, but we'll build the horses up before that with our,
1:46:32
you know, 15-minute trot and then three fours and then three fives- Mm-hmm
1:46:36
and then three sixes.
1:46:36
And depending on the horse and what they need as far as their fitness, if their
1:46:39
gallop is really easy and light, you might have to do some interval training
1:46:42
within those sprints, hills, things like that to make them work a little bit more.
1:46:45
We don't do as long of trot sets as we used to do when we had long format,
1:46:49
but I would say that I'm really glad that the long format is gone because
1:46:52
a lot more horses actually broke on the way to long format because you
1:46:56
were doing so much fitness work.
1:46:58
Mm-hmm.
1:46:58
That, you know, I think confirmation is another really important thing that people
1:47:01
don't always pay attention to in making sure that the horse is shod very well,
1:47:05
making sure that their, their confirmation suits the job that they're doing.
1:47:08
You know, as far as- Mm â¦ as if you're putting a high level of fitness work on
1:47:11
a horse that has a crooked leg, you're gonna end up in some trouble, right?
1:47:14
Yeah.
1:47:14
So you might have to find an alternative way to keep that horse fit, whether that's
1:47:17
swimming them or aqua treading them, or hacking is w- obviously wonderful.
1:47:20
You can't do too much of that, especially if you've got hills.
1:47:23
We're in Florida, so that's why we have to use the, the treadmill
1:47:26
'cause everything's flat.
1:47:27
So we've gotten really creative.
1:47:28
We have a heart rate monitor that we have the horses wear all the time.
1:47:31
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:47:31
Sinead Maynard: Well, at least three of the horses, and then that goes
1:47:33
to a, a guy that's leading a study who's incredible that will give us
1:47:36
feedback on how, how we're doing.
1:47:39
We have some great vet clinics, so that we're always, you know, tracking
1:47:42
Like we had one horse that should be fit, and she's not getting â¦ You know,
1:47:45
she's still not recovering as well, so we send her in and she does a BAL, and
1:47:48
she has asthma, so she gets nebulized.
1:47:50
We have a hay steamer.
1:47:51
Our hay gets steamed all the time.
1:47:52
You know, like we're very fortunate that we have resources for
1:47:55
all of these different things.
1:47:57
You know, I do think that you said, I think honestly, sometimes it's
1:48:01
way harder to get a fat horse thin than it is to put weight on a horse.
1:48:04
You know?
1:48:05
Like that's what I find.
1:48:07
Yeah.
1:48:07
Is I see a lot of like you said, overweight horses out there doing
1:48:10
things, and you're like, "You gotta, you gotta do something about that."
1:48:13
But it wouldn't- It wouldn't be â¦ And I think it's interesting, too, how sometimes
1:48:20
if you can compare it to how, like you said, like with humans, it all of a sudden
1:48:24
there's a light bulb that goes off, that you're like, "Oh, yeah, that's not howâ¦"
1:48:27
You know, 'cause you'll have people that are like gym rats, right?
1:48:30
Like, they're li- they, they're living at the gym.
1:48:32
They're working out all the time, fitness buffs, but they don't
1:48:35
treat the horse the same way.
1:48:36
You know?
1:48:37
Mm.
1:48:37
Like, they don't under- you know, it's an athlete in the same way.
1:48:39
Even if it's doing low-level work, it still feels like they need to be
1:48:42
fit and moving around, especially if you're at a place where you
1:48:44
can't have a lot of turnout.
1:48:45
I mean, we're so lucky here.
1:48:46
Our horses are out from 3:00 till 7:00 in the morning.
1:48:49
You know, like, a- and if ones need to live out, they live out all the time.
1:48:52
So, yeah, I mean, I'm totally with you on the fitness side of things,
1:48:57
and like you said, it's, it's just too expensive when they start getting hurt.
1:49:00
I mean-
1:49:01
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
1:49:01
Sinead Maynard: I don't know how people are paying for that.
1:49:05
I don't
1:49:05
Rupert Isaacson: know.
1:49:06
No, it's, it's, it's, it's something which we have to address in the therapy world-
1:49:11
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
1:49:11
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: because this idea of, "Well, the horse is
1:49:13
quiet, and that's enough."
1:49:14
It's like, yeah, but- Yeah â¦ and we don't want a fit horse
1:49:16
'cause he'd be too bubbly.
1:49:17
It's like, mm, no, not necessarily, actually.
1:49:19
Sinead Maynard: Right.
1:49:20
Right.
1:49:20
Rupert Isaacson: In fact, he might be less bubbly because he's-
1:49:22
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
1:49:23
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: endorphins in his body.
1:49:24
And if he's that bubbly- Yeah â¦ why have you got him in the therapy world anyway?
1:49:29
Yeah.
1:49:29
You know?
1:49:29
Sinead Maynard: Well, that's, that's where it goes back to the right match.
1:49:31
Yeah.
1:49:31
You know?
1:49:32
Yeah.
1:49:32
Like, that's where it goes back to the right match, and getting creative.
1:49:34
Like, we've had ones here, you know, like, yeah, putting them
1:49:38
in a circle isn't great for them.
1:49:39
Like, we had one that was rehabbing-
1:49:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:49:42
â¦ Sinead Maynard: and he hated being in a saddle, hated it, so you know, he, we
1:49:45
just long lined up and down the driveway.
1:49:46
Exactly.
1:49:47
'Cause he walked in a straight line.
1:49:47
He was perfect on the- Exactly
1:49:48
on the long line.
1:49:49
It was awesome.
1:49:50
Rupert Isaacson: I'm so with you on that one.
1:49:51
I've got a horse that was donated to me with broken tendons,
1:49:54
but he's such a nice horse.
1:49:55
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:49:56
And
1:49:56
Rupert Isaacson: I thought, "Well, I can never lunge this horse."
1:49:57
Yeah.
1:49:58
And lungeing is the sort of foundation of what we justâ¦
1:50:00
Okay, long line it.
1:50:01
Yeah.
1:50:01
We'll just long line him and s- exactly as you say.
1:50:03
We'll long line him- Totally â¦ in straight lines, and most
1:50:05
of the time he's sound-ish.
1:50:08
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:50:08
Rupert Isaacson: But yeah, it's, it'sâ¦
1:50:10
And but you know, not everyone knows
1:50:15
those alternatives because-
1:50:16
Sinead Maynard: Yeah, yeah
1:50:16
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: d- y- you know, if I was addicted to the round pen,
1:50:20
okay, well maybe that's not the right place for him because circles-
1:50:22
Mm â¦ in the sand, maybe not so good.
1:50:25
But-
1:50:25
Sinead Maynard: Yeah
1:50:26
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: if I'm coming from one sort of dogma-
1:50:29
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm
1:50:30
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: then it, yeah.
1:50:32
Y- but you're clinicking, so d- are you helping people to find these kinds of-
1:50:38
Sinead Maynard: Oh, sure.
1:50:39
Sure.
1:50:39
And we do a lot of like, like I don't know if you can tell, but w- m- for
1:50:44
me personally, I don't mind talking.
1:50:47
And so at a lot of these clinics we'll do a morning talk or a lunch talk,
1:50:51
and, and I love that style, like the symposium style where you've got- Yeah
1:50:55
you know, the discussions are so healthy and fun.
1:50:59
So yes, we have a lot of those with the clinics.
1:51:01
Rupert Isaacson: The word symposium's always very funny,
1:51:03
particularly when it's used, 'cause the horse people use it a lot.
1:51:05
"Oh, we're having a symposium."
1:51:06
Sinead Maynard: Symposium.
1:51:07
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know what symposium- What, what?
1:51:08
â¦ actually means?
1:51:09
Sinead Maynard: Of course not.
1:51:10
Rupert Isaacson: It means a piss up.
1:51:11
So- â¦ it means a wine drinking evening, specifically- Well, that's
1:51:15
Sinead Maynard: what we do at our symposiums Right.
1:51:17
I don't know what you're â¦ Nothing like a good glass of wine at breakfast.
1:51:22
Rupert Isaacson: You know?
1:51:24
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:51:24
Rupert Isaacson: My fr- my b- my best friend Tom, when he was he'll
1:51:27
kill me for this story his three boys brought him breakfast in bed when they
1:51:31
were very young, him and his wife.
1:51:33
And with the toast and the jam and the marmalade were- Yeah â¦ and the tea,
1:51:39
were two brimming glasses of red wine.
1:51:42
Said, "We know how much you love it, Mommy and Daddy."
1:51:47
Sinead Maynard: You're like, "Oh, no."
1:51:48
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, maybe time
1:51:50
Sinead Maynard: to- Things are gonnaâ¦
1:51:50
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's when you make some adjustments and you
1:51:52
put your wine in your coffee mug.
1:51:55
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
1:51:56
Sinead Maynard: I mean, don't stop drinking the wine.
1:51:58
No, it's just- You just gotta hide it better.
1:51:59
Rupert Isaacson: Someone's gotta support the industry, yeah, industry.
1:52:01
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:52:03
Exactly.
1:52:04
Rupert Isaacson: Well, look, this has been really, really wonderful.
1:52:06
We have approached the two-hour mark.
1:52:09
Mm.
1:52:09
And you probably are desperate to s- kick me out and get on with your
1:52:13
day, have more important things.
1:52:15
Sinead Maynard: I'm gonna, I'm gonna go help teach tick a jump lesson.
1:52:18
That's what's next on my radar.
1:52:19
Ooh, well that's- Little, little husband and, and wife training session.
1:52:22
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh.
1:52:23
Sinead Maynard: It's gonna be exciting.
1:52:23
Ooh.
1:52:24
I might bring some wine.
1:52:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yes for him.
1:52:26
Sinead Maynard: Yeah.
1:52:27
It's gonna be a symposium.
1:52:28
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed, indeed.
1:52:30
Yeah.
1:52:30
A, a, a mid-morning one.
1:52:32
There were four things which came up in this conversation, which with
1:52:35
your permission, it would be very nice to return and do some specific
1:52:42
conversations just on these topics.
1:52:45
Mm.
1:52:45
Sort of 20 minutes each or so.
1:52:48
Sinead Maynard: Sure.
1:52:48
Rupert Isaacson: As follow-ups.
1:52:49
One is, can it feel like play?
1:52:51
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:52:52
Rupert Isaacson: The other one is skillsets.
1:52:53
Sinead Maynard: Mm-hmm.
1:52:55
Rupert Isaacson: And what does that really mean?
1:52:56
The other one was retreat and approach.
1:52:59
Love that, and I think would like to get into that a lot more.
1:53:02
And then the fourth one was around your commentaries of watching horses and
1:53:08
watching how horses show up when they are sort of in their, "Okay, now let's
1:53:16
really actually do something," phase- Mm
1:53:18
rather than just observing them in the field or in the round pen or whatever.
1:53:23
Mm.
1:53:23
I think there's a lot that I personally anyway could learn from those things.
1:53:28
Would you be up for-
1:53:30
Sinead Maynard: Oh, hell yeah â¦ a couple of return matches?
1:53:31
That'd
1:53:32
Rupert Isaacson: be fun.
1:53:32
Yeah.
1:53:32
Sinead Maynard: Let's do it.
1:53:33
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
1:53:33
Sinead Maynard: Mm.
1:53:34
Rupert Isaacson: Then we will.
1:53:36
So thank
1:53:37
Sinead Maynard: you.
1:53:37
This
1:53:37
Rupert Isaacson: has been- Thank you.
1:53:39
Sinead Maynard: This has been super fun
1:53:40
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: brilliant.
1:53:41
I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
1:53:46
If you did, please help us to make more.
1:53:49
Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up.
1:53:54
If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson.
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com.
1:54:00
And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with.
1:54:03
autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism.
1:54:07
There's a whole range of cool stuff.
1:54:10
Putting a show together like this is not an easy task.
1:54:14
If you'd like to support us, please consider going to our Patreon page
1:54:20
and showing us some love there.
1:54:22
Even the smallest donation, it really helps us to keep the good content coming.
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So go to rupertisakson.
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com and click on the Patreon link.
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Not to mention our excellent merch.
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Please go to our shop and check out some of our really cool
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rock and roll themed merch.
1:54:42
T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing.
1:54:44
rupertisatson.
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com, it's all there.
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I can't wait for our next guest and also to meet you there.
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In the meantime, remember, live free.
1:54:55
Ride free.