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What I've Learnt - Donna Lyon (Left Write Hook) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

0:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, groundbreaking documentary Left Right Hook follows eight female survivors of childhood sexual abuse who participate in a two-year experimental recovery program that combines the physicality of boxing with the emotional power of expressive writing.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: The program provides survivors of sexual assault a space to release their memories, reclaim their bodies, and imagine new lives for themselves.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Through powerful participatory filmmaking, unprecedented access, and full engagement with all of those involved, this feature-length documentary captures an amazing journey of recovery, transformation, and friendship.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: What unfolds across their ensuing time together is a profound discovery of self, resilience, and community as the survivors begin to gain agency and take back their power.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: The programme aims to change the narrative about survivors of incest.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm thrilled to welcome the wonderful Donna Hensler, who produced this extraordinary documentary.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm thrilled to have Donna join me on the What I've Learned podcast.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: Donna, who well, we first met when you were my inspiring lecturer in the Masters of Film Producing course at the Victorian College of the Arts at Melbourne University.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: And we shared a common passion for storytelling.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: And that was pretty evident.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: I actually loved talking to you, and always after class, we'd have a good chat.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: So while I knew you were working on a number of projects, I can now see the depth and complexity of this incredible DOCO.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: It's truly special.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: And I think it must have taken a lot of courage.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: So talk to me a little bit about how you embarked on this incredible story of survival and change and hope.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks, Deb.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's great to connect with you again.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, so when we was reflecting a moment ago that when I met you, I had start just started my boxing journey.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: And really that boxing journey came out of my lived experience as a survivor of child sexual abuse, and why that how that was kind of connected into boxing is that you know I'd been dealing with the long-term effects of the abuse uh for really ever since I was a kind of child, um, and the manifestations of that into my adulthood and the disconnection from self, the effects on my mental health, uh, all of that.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: And so I'd been on a pursuit of recovery, I think around that time, about five years, um, beginning to really rebuild my life, reclaim a sense of self, try and um try and do life in a way that essentially I had wanted to, but you know, decisions I'd made pre-recovery, you know, were uh very uh destructive in a sense.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Um and so boxing kind of became part of this journey of reclamation of self and um out of a feeling of anger.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was good because before that I felt very depressed.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: And so this anger had kind of come up in me.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, this is sort of quite new.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, I need to channel that and I need to channel it into, I think, a boxing bag.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: I really want to punch something.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: And so I started boxing, but I quickly realized that boxing uh is not about anger, actually, it's about mindfulness because the anger kind of, you know, you get very gassed quite quickly with the energetic with the punching.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: And I realized, oh, this is sort of this is a really mindful sport.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's mindfulness was the hardest thing for me because I was so dissociated from the abuse.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, I found it really difficult to kind of be in my body in a really safe way.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: The empowering movements of boxing helped me to do that in perhaps I think a better way than say more of uh traditional um uh movements like yoga or mindfulness practices.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: I found that very, very difficult, the idea of just sitting with self.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: So I understand that.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, to punch something out.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, can you can just for our listeners, can you give a snapshot without being too intrusive?
4:32
SPEAKER_01: Just a snapshot of how old you were and was this something that you I am assuming you'd attempted to deal with through therapy and other forms of treatment.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: What were you you were how old was were you when this abuse took place?
4:45
SPEAKER_01: And can you give a little snapshot of that story?
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um I probably won't spend a lot of time on details, but it happened within the context of family and um some wider networks, and uh I was very young from the age of like uh possibly pre-verbal.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so my um response to that trauma uh is that I dissociated, I disconnected from it.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: And so, in a sense, um that was probably a gift, I think of it as a gift, because I kind of really left my body.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't present.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: So it's been very difficult for me to find a language and a clear narrative um around the construction of events that happened to me.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a one-time thing, it was ongoing, it was prolonged, repeated exposure to uh physical and sexual abuse.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: And so young, so young.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: So memory is is yeah, is always a challenge because you're trying to invalidate like it's not linear, it's not uh uh, you know, he walked into the room and it was this time and he was wearing this.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: It's just it's just memory isn't, you know, the research demonstrates that memory is uh not linear in that way for a child's brain.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: Um and so actually I don't think I had a conscious awareness of these events.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, I buried them, they were like amnesic.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: And so it wasn't until actually I was 25, 26 that I met a woman at a party uh who told a story of her abuse, and she'd been groomed at a young age, and something she said, and it was around the kind of grooming, I was like, it just unlocked something inside me.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: And I I was just I felt like the room was spinning.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: I went to the bathroom and I'm like, oh my God, something, something's happened to me.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, something really, really bad has happened.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: And I said to my partner, I I need to go home, you need to take me home.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: And I just started crying.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: And it was this deep, guttural cry, Deb, like this this cry that got goosebumps listening to this story because it sounds so visceral.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where is this coming from?
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Like I just genuinely didn't know.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: And um, and the woman had said to my partner, actually, at that party while I was in the bathroom, they said, I think your partner's been sexually abused.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, here's a here's a book, actually, if you know, that they should read, which is The Courage to Heal, uh a famous book by Alan Bass.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, and and so I I kind of went home and I woke up the next day and I thought I thought, I've been sexually abused.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: And it was like my whole life just changed in that instant.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't understand how I could not rem have remembered.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: But it was almost like every decision that I'd made, every effect, every relationship, everything made sense in that moment.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: But nothing made sense.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I suddenly it was your world was spinning, and also it's like an altered reality, I couldn't imagine, where everything you thought was isn't.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that's right.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: I well, I went on a bit of a journey to, you know, okay, well, I'm gonna fix it.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna find out what happened to me, and I'm gonna get better and get over it.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: And then that kind of started a quite a you know, a delicate journey of dipping into therapy and a lot of dysregulation, a lot of memory coming up, a lot of body memory, a lot of regression, a lot of shivering, shaking.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then um, but the problem was that I wasn't being treated properly in terms of um a therapeutic intervention.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: And my biggest coping mechanism at that time was alcohol.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: And that became stronger.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Just numb.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just a numb.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: And so that became stronger for me.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: And so the more I was like, I'm gonna pursue this, the more dysregulated my nervous system was, and the and the worse my coping mechanisms were.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: And um, basically I just drank uh daily to numb, which of course meant that I wasn't getting better.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then by uh the age of approximately 30, I was like, I just kind of hit a rock bottom in my alcoholism, and I uh went into a 12-step program to get sober.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: And from there, that's when I began to rebuild my life and I began to get proper therapy, the right therapy, um, which dealt with the dissociation, it dealt with the um uh yeah, the anxiety, the depression, and all the other effects.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: And I began to uh kind of begin a recovery journey.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think your story is not entirely uncommon.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: In fact, we hear these stories quite regularly where as you know, people have memory and it and they go back and they realize that they've blocked either through alcohol or drugs, it's not um something that, and yet it's really difficult to find treatment and support, which is where where you've landed with the boxing and finding a way to heal, recover, rebuild, restructure is really quite an inspirational one.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: But also, more importantly, you're offering in this documentary an insight into how it can help other people.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: So tell me what the boxing did for you, and then how the story or the decision to make a doco about this incredible organization left right hook, it's just incredible.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: I find it fascinating.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: It has been a it has been quite a journey.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess it's it is important to to state that alongside this kind of these mental health challenges, the um the alcoholism and all of that, like I was working and I was functioning as a and you're very respected as a producer and an extraordinary, you know, lecturer.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, you've which is quite well that was pre-lecturing, but like I, you know, it because but still like I was educated and I was you know in the film industry, and so you know, I still had an external life, is my point.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: Um and so, you know, yeah, and I think, and so this kind of continuum of recovery sort of sat alongside this other life that I'd kind of built.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Um and so I started boxing, and again, it was a way to kind of get fit to get the anger out, and then I started fighting.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: And it was probably I not necessarily the best part of my journey.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: I was thrown into a ring, you know, within a few months, and I and it was a bit of a laugh to begin and a bit of a story.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: And I love stories, I was a filmmaker.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, one fight kind of led to the next fight that led to the next fight.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: And then that, but that actually led to me losing, and I lost quite a bit.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: And then as I lost, that's where the empowerment of the boxing began to come become quite disempowered because I was like, see, you're a loser.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: You can't win, you can't fight back, you know, and it started to reinforce the really negative tapes that were already in my head.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: So eventually I got to a point and I did win one fight, I will say.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was sort of, you know, by that stage, it was like, what am I doing this for?
12:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, like and I realized I don't want to be a I'm I I am a fighter, I'm fighting for my life, you know, daily.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: Sanity and and and center and to center your emotions.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: But I must say, I think listening to you also, it sounds almost a little bit punitive what you were doing is subjecting yourself to this sort of I felt like I was re-traumatizing myself.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and like that I was re-traumatizing myself.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: Partly one was to I genuinely wanted it was like if I won that would prove something, um, like a thing of beating the abuser, which was imaginary and kind of false.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, but also two, I think I genuinely was sort of like really wanting to find a connection to my body and mind.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: And what was happening in the ring is I was genuinely dissociating.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: So it was quite dangerous.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Um very dangerous, um, physically and mentally.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: Physically and mentally.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: But I got myself kind of out of that and I said, look, I don't I don't want to, I'm and I'm and I'm, you know, by that stage I was in my mid-30s.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: It's not like I was, you know, on a career to be a fighter.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: Like that wasn't why I was doing it.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: I was like, why am I actually doing boxing?
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Why am I doing boxing?
13:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing it because actually the empowered movements of the training is genuinely really, really uh wonderful for me.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was the bit that I knew I was good at.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: I was good at the training, I was good at the practice of it.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: But because I didn't feel like a winner, I didn't have these belts under me, these trophies, I was like, oh, well, I can't like go out and work with other women like me to sort of give share this gift because I don't feel like a winner.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: What can I do that's different?
14:01
SPEAKER_00: And that's where I began to bring in my arts journey and a different modality.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: And so I introduced creative writing into the first hour of the program.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: And then in this, and so we would come together as survivors, because that was really important to me.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: I was looking for community, dev.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: I was looking to meet other women who had been through an experience like me, and I wanted to, we I wanted to connect.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: So we wrote, we write to a prompt, we share, and then I teach them boxing.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: And so, therefore, it's not about being a great boxer, it's not even about being a great writer, it's about expressing ourselves and coming together in community.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: So that was the beginning of a grassroots project that I went, ooh, geez, that would actually make a really good film.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: Um and it certainly does.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it it's quite it's quite a riveting story to watch.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is an incredible, and the fact, what I actually like is the way you've taken what you do have, your incredible skill set, your producing, your writing ability, combined with your physicality and your, I mean, whether it's gym or boxing or this is your modality, as you say, but the fact that you've you you've grabbed both of those, as I call it, and the things in your toolkit, you know, I always say to people, what's in your toolkit when you're dealing with trauma?
15:19
SPEAKER_01: What is it that actually helps you on your path?
15:21
SPEAKER_01: You manage to find those two things and bring them together.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: How did the program emerge and how hard was it to film?
15:30
SPEAKER_01: Because you had to get a lot of permissions, and we know about permissions because we didn't know.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a big thing to, you know.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I was at the so I ran it twice in a grassroots setting.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I was testing it, very low stakes, and it was very easy.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: The core, sorry, just you were testing the core program.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, very, very low cost, um, small group of people that I just advertised in the local newspaper and on Facebook, you know, got a bunch of people.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: And I recognized, oh, geez, this power, this is a powerful program.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: So because I was at the University of Melbourne, and by that stage I was near to the end of my PhD.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: So I'd begun to think more like a researcher.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, uh, I should bring this into the University of Melbourne and research this, you know, let's see actually, is the program effective on people's mental health and well-being?
16:23
SPEAKER_00: And that was the first step for the documentary.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: We we got a little bit of seed funding for like a creativity and well-being um funding round.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: We tested the idea, we brought in a psychologist, a gender expert to measure the program on people's resilience.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: And we thought we'll we'll we will also film that, which will then become part of potentially a documentary.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: So the participants we got in knew exactly what they were coming in for.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: We had to get ethics approval.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: I was about to say very transparent around the process, knowing that we we, in a sense, we couldn't be fully transparent because we were like, we're gonna film this.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: We don't know what this actually actually is.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: We genuinely don't know what the documentary is or where it will go.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: But if you sign up for this, kind of just be prepared for a journey, you know.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: And also you had to you had to validate who your guests and subjects were.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: And um we and so we we had we had eight women and um they remained with us.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: Um now, two weeks into that program, by the way, Deb, was 2020, COVID hit.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: So two weeks of filming, we're in a gym, we're doing the psychological data and everything at the, you know, trying to get this.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Two weeks, COVID hits, we have to pivot online.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Of course we do.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: But it was a blessing in disguise because what it meant was that we did measure the program over eight weeks.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: Six of those was in our bedrooms and our lounge rooms, so online.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: And the results were a reduction in PTSD depression and stress, and an increase in personal agency and resilience.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: So the testing of the program was like, oh, this is effective.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: The data proves it.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: But we continued, we said to like our filming is compromised.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: So will you continue to work with us?
18:20
SPEAKER_00: And so we ran three programs in 2020.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: But what that meant was that we ended up writing an incredible body of writings.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: And so because it was online.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: Because it was online, and so we we wrote, we boxed, and we we wrote, and I said, Look, you know, this is gonna make a really terrific book.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Why don't we write a book?
18:42
SPEAKER_00: And we did.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: So we wrote a book and said, and then we said, now we need to continue this documentary.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: So this whole journey with this group of of survivors has lasted two and a half years of what started out as an eight-week program, which is pretty incredible.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: Pretty incredible, and also the bravery, the transparency, the courage to not only go on this journey for these people, but for you as well to, as a producer and and as a creator, to have faith.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Because you, as you said, you really didn't have a roadmap and you didn't know really where you were going, and because until the research, the research bore fruit, in effect, yeah, um, it could have gone anyway.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: So just sort of understand the two weeks of boxing prior to the COVID online situation, how did what was the measure in the six weeks when you're online?
19:37
SPEAKER_01: Was it the writing that was the main measure?
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Or did you because obviously you couldn't box in those six weeks?
19:43
SPEAKER_00: No, it was actually it was well, it was both.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: The first was a psychological data based on you know, so a psychologist coming in with their particular measures.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: Right, okay, yeah.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we did a thematic analysis of the writing as well, which brought out themes of belonging, empowerment, um, community, a better sense of self, making meaning.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, so so so we looked at it in a really um multimodal way.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, we weren't just interested in one particular baseline measure.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes, which in a way that was the blessing that you're referring to.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: It allowed you to access things that you may not have otherwise had you been in the boxing space fully for that eight weeks because it gave you other things to mention.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: And so, in terms of this film, this documentary is going to be screened as part of the Melbourne Film Festival, is that right?
20:43
SPEAKER_00: In 2024.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: In 2024, good.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, we need to know that because that gives people an opportunity to watch it.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: That's the is that the main space that it's going to be available?
20:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think kind of like any documentary, you know, it will premiere at the film festival, it will go on its own roadshow, we'll have then event screenings.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, we will um, you know, a really large part of a documentary like this is its social impact campaign, raising awareness of the issue, driving people to the program, which then takes us on to a charity that I've now set up uh to prepare for that.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: So we have a light, so we've got a pro so we've got programs that we can deliver to people who want to do them after seeing the documentary.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: That's pretty another element that's come out of the project.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, then of course you've got uh, you know, eventually it will come probably hopefully end up on, you know, a network uh or stand or something like that.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it really is quite groundbreaking.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: And also a question for you what was it like working?
21:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously you've worked with actors, as I know, because you've produced, but what was it like working with with um the reality space and the documentary space and these people having to nurture, protect, but Also, in a sense, um, allow them to be real and and not was that quite hard to like how you know, in terms of your editing and your producing, and how difficult was that to, you know, because you were trying to protect them because they're part of your story, but you're also trying to showcase their journey.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: I think it constantly revealed ethical uh considerations.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think putting I I think the decision, I needed to put myself in the documentary.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: And I recognize that.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And I think I I that's probably the least comfortable part of the process.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, in some respects, I I don't want to be on camera, I don't like that.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I knew I needed to make myself equal and vulnerable, just as they were.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: And I think by doing that, that allowed the um trust uh to be built.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, of course, we had our director, our writer director, and a producer, Shannon Owen, who was, you know, absolutely instrumental in that piece.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, but we we really worked hard to give the participants as much agency as possible about their representation.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: So at every point, they were we gave very clear information.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: They always had a decision to opt out.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, there was no sense of like people um being filmed in a voyeuristic way.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: We were very clear, you know, we weren't making married at first sight, you know.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: It was a a relational, observational, um, and meant to be kind of emancipatory, the experience of making.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it was dialogic.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: It was um we we did it in conversation um and uh and through through careful consideration.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think what happened was that I mean, I I was I've been genuinely surprised at the commitment of the participants.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: Like if I was one of them, I would probably have it ages ago.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: Um that says something, doesn't it?
24:06
SPEAKER_00: For some reason, we just happened to pick a handful of people who were so deeply committed to the process um that I'm not sure whether even Shannon and I were fully involved in that.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: I think it it came from them.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: It was organic and it became a yeah, an organic connection, is what you're thinking.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I mean, of course, I think we created a framework where they felt held throughout that process.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: I I hope that they feel that.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: But I think that everyone felt deeply committed to the process of um of exploration.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: And that's I'm I I I think that came from them.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really important to acknowledge that.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: I think that's really important too.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: You can create those environments, but ultimately too, they need to be the ones, people need to be the ones that make the decision to go along the journey.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: And that was the bit that for some reason we were very, very just blessed to have people that uh had arrived at that place.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, I do, I think it does reflect your producing and your directing with Shannon, but but also for you, what was the impact of seeing this film come to fruition?
25:18
SPEAKER_01: Which I know how hard it is to get made, funded, developed, produced.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: How I mean, you must be sitting there like it's like having a baby, yeah?
25:28
SPEAKER_01: It's like giving birth.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, I haven't had a baby, uh, so um I do know this, but I think it is very much like your baby because you have no, no, no, absolutely.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I think it's just, I mean, it's been an incredible journey.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: It's been um, I mean, it's been really beautiful.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, we have raised a lot of money for this film.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we've done that through bringing in project partners.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: Like if Shannon and I had done this in an indie way, which we would have, but we didn't.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: We managed to get like Sweet Shop and Green production company, um, who then activated Screen Australia, Vic Screen, Melbourne International Film Festival, Premiere Fund, you know, on and on, um, distribution, bonsai.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Like, so this is a premium um product.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think that has been probably the most exciting part of it because this is a really, really difficult story.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: It's basically a bunch of women who have been sexually abused as children.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: It's not something that you're going to rush to the cinema and go and see, right?
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: These are difficult, complex topics and subjects and usually gets relegated to um uh scurring for money.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, absolutely true.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, because of because of the subject matter.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: And I feel really, really proud to have been part of um a film where we are elevating the topic.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we're actually what we've done is we've given it a level of self-esteem.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: And I think that then indirectly gives the participants a level of self-esteem.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: That but and and again, not to say that you know that everyone gets self-esteem through other things, but it says to them, you're worth it.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: We believe you.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna tell your story.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna tell your story.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it in really well.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: And and Donna, it's interesting because I I know how challenging that can be to get those those investors and people on board, but that says something also about the framework you created.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: And it also says something about, I suppose it's a sort of a template of sorts that shows people also, other producers or other people have a vision to tell a story that's sometimes challenging and hard, that it can be done and it can be done in Australia, and you will get support if you get the right things in place.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, because we all know how challenging that is.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: So go you and congrats.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: But I think that, you know, and that's where I think a diverse set of skills that when you bring in a really rich team uh that they can bring to that.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, we like having the project through the University of Melbourne was a very surprisingly um important um and deeply meaningful part of the journey because it gave the project legitimacy.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, credibility.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: It credibility, an evidence base.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: Um uh and and yeah, and so so grounding in that academic environment surprised me.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, okay, yes, of course.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that makes sense, but I I kind of took that for granted.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then bringing in industry partners and then bringing in now philanthropists and donors and people who genuinely really care about our our society and they care about the issue.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's also where social impact storytelling and filmmaking is so critical.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: And there are a lot of people who believe in it if it's if it's told correctly, because clearly you've you showcased that.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: Just on that note, do you think, you know, obviously, as a um a film uh lecturer, as a filmmaker, do you think obviously what's happening in America and what's happening in the unreality space, because it feels so insane.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: What do you see about the impact of um filmmaking in Australia with all of these machinations happening, with actors on strike and the structure being challenged, the infrastructure being questioned?
29:29
SPEAKER_01: Do you have any sense of how it's going to impact Australia or have you heard any ruminations on that?
29:35
SPEAKER_00: I think we will begin to have the same conversations as Americans are having around residuals, which is essentially um, you know, uh being able to reap some of the rewards uh for the usage of appearance uh and work on screen, um, you know, which is making studios and broad and execs and you know Netflix and all of that a lot of money.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: But the people that are kind of going, hey, I just got a one-time fee, and actually, you know, to be truthful, it was only, you know, uh minimum base wage.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, and yet you're playing my image or you're playing my my my tele movie or whatever it is for you know five years and you're bringing in all these profits, but we're not actually receiving any of that.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is equity, it's it's it's a problem.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: It is a big problem.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: Whether or not we have the um industry here um in terms of you know the the studio model, we don't have that same um structure.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: So I think it might take some time, but I think the conversations will begin to happen um because it's about fairness.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: But we're already a kind of fledgling industry.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: So you know, it's uh yeah, it's it's hard to it's hard to see for sure.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: But actually, what I was thinking about in the documentary space is that's one thing you actually don't you have to navigate a lot, but you don't have to navigate, you've got an actor, and that they're real people, but you have to navigate obviously all of the ethical issues which you've just outlined.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: But in some ways, the documentary space is not immersed in that particular issue in the same way, is it?
31:15
SPEAKER_00: No, because you don't pay participants exactly so part of that, of course, is the ethical um, you know, reasons behind that.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: You don't want to be paying people to, you know, influence the way that they appear on screen.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: And so um, yeah, and I think too that there's a a human element to to to storytelling through documentaries.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, but but people don't always want to engage with that, you know.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people just want to tune out and go into a sort of, you know, don't need to think about it.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: Barbie, yeah.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: Barbie is, yeah.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, let's be honest.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: I've seen it twice.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we can do it.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's a feminist critique, so perhaps not the best example.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: But I take your point, yeah.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think what's interesting though is that the reality space is really, and I don't mean reality TV, I mean the documentary space, is really quite an interesting um what you've done and what a lot of people are doing.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: There's some the authenticity that people are craving is resonating a lot with our community, and certainly with the fact that you've got funding and supporters on board suggests there's hope, I suppose, that we can tell these stories in a brave, courageous way and not have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get the resources.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: Would that be right?
32:32
SPEAKER_00: I think so, and hopefully in a really ethical way, an ethical way that brings, you know, people along for a very long for for a very long journey of conversation and then hopefully change.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, I'm not sure whether the there's a monetary value on that, um, meaning that, you know, certainly the the documentary doesn't afford like it requires a lot of passion and energy that's beyond any monetary value, is my is my point.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's a very good point.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're not Tom, it's not Tom Cruise in his fourth mission impossible, whatever it is, third mission impossible.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, so it's not going to have the the the breadth and the um, and and as you say, that's a completely different realm.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: But I suppose what you're saying is it is beyond monetary value, but however, it has to be a viable thing in order for it to continue to make documentaries here in this country.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Because it's such an important role.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: I know it is, and you and I always talked about that when I, you know, I was doing the course.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting because you've got this up and it's great and it's amazing.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: And go you, and I'm so proud and I'm so excited for it to go on its next phase of its journey.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: And and for you also, who have have shown courage in putting yourself in the story in a way that you know suggests that you value that it's one to tell, but also to help others in the story trust that you're in there with them.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: And that that's not easy to do.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: So I'm very impressed that you've done that.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: And so it'll be out 2024, but in the meantime, so the meantime we uh a social impact documentary like Left Right Hook um uh needs to point to audiences somewhere.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: So where is and so where we're pointing them is that we want audiences, and I say audiences like you know, survivors or people that have been affected to to either donate to the program of left right hook and or do a program.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: Um so participate in one.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: But to get there, it means that it needs to be more than little old me running a program.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: I need to train up trainers, I need to have a you know a recruitment pipeline, you know, all the rest.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: So um beavering away in the background of teaching and all the rest, um, and getting the film uh ready for distribution, uh, I've been building a charity.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: And um that uh is again leveraging my uh connection at the University of Melbourne, uh working with philanthropists and donors who have also supported the film uh to activate a charity that's sustainable and ready to go.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is happening, it's it's already and is it called Left Right Hook, that charity?
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Or is that it is called Left Right Hook, yeah.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: I love the name.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Left right, by the way, listeners.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: Left right W-R-I-T-E hook.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: I think it's great.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: It's such a good name.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so um we uh have already been running programs, we are training up trainers at the moment.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I hope, you know, like the aim is obviously by August that we've um, yeah, probably August next year, we've moved um a bit further forward in the funding uh structure of that, um, which we've already attracted philanthropy and just continue to build those connections.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I'm so excited.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: So people can just to be clear, they can.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: I'll put the the um the details on our podcast and Instagram link.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's on there's a website, left right hook.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: Is that is that there's a website people can donate to the charity.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh we are, you know, literally uh in startup phase and um beginning to um make an impact.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's wonderful, and I think it's a very important story to tell.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for taking the time and effort to tell us and keep us in the loop because it's something I think that we're all we're all gonna watch.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Deb, and it's so lovely to reconnect with you.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: It is.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: You were always a great inspiration when I was doing my masters as I flailed and floundered around.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: There was always Donna who I could go, hey Donna, I don't know what I'm doing.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: Can you just help me here?
36:49
SPEAKER_01: She was amazing.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: So it's wonderful to say we've both carved our paths since then and continue to grow.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: Love dear.