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Monday Mini: The Sin of Empathy · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stephanie.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never told you your prediction of I.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Heard you, And welcome to another Monday, Mini where we're
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: just going to be mad and sad and angry. Let's
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: put a time stamp. Today is March seventh, twenty twenty five.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: This is something that well, let's just stuff been doing
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: because I it's a lot, it's a lot, okay, And
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I feel like we can't talk about the downfall of
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: humanity in the US without talking about the continued rise
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: of Christian nationalism. And just recently I came up on
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: a new Wish theory so new to me. I didn't
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: realize this was being touted. I should have, but I
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: think I tried to avoid anything like with Christian nationalism
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: because it's so tainted to me, well, the whole Christianity
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: to me, on a whole, but Christian nationalism in itself.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: But it is a Jewish theory within extremist Christianity, and
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: it's the theory of the sin of empathy. So as
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: with those current affairs content we've been publishing again trigger
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: warning for all the stressfulness of a world gone mad,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: but specifically religious trauma. I think we're going to have
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: to open up to add more to the series Annie
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: about the actual results of how Christian nationalism has been
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: able to take control of the US government and us
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: watching it in real time, Like we knew what was coming,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: which is why we started talking about it. The level
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: and the speed that it has come is overwhelming, almost
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: like to the point that we are all frozen in fear.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: I feel like or I am maybe that's just me.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, when we were talking to Molly Conger, who
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: you'll hear in the future prediction is going to to
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: listen to this than just kidding, I feel in the future.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: But with that, like how we were talking about we
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: still need to talk about Project twenty twenty five and
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: she's like, it's too late. Oh yeah, but we certainly
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: need to talk about it and we don't want to.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: But with all of that, for this Monday Many, I
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: wanted to take a quick look at this theory and
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: why continues to be brought up. First, a reminder, Empathy,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: according to Merriam Webster, is quote the action of understanding,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: and experience of another and sympathy because this is very
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: related obviously, is a feeling of sincere concern for someone
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: who has experienced something difficult or painful. And with that,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: they say the difference is sympathy and empathy both involved
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: feelings of concern for someone, but empathy goes beyond a
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: feeling of concern to include an active sharing and the
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: suffering person's emotional experience. So, you know, we love a
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: good definition, and I think is always good to be
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: reminded of what this is, and this is what we're
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: referring to. So this is from twenty twenty one, and
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: this is one of the first articles that pop up
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: when I try to look this up about the sin
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: of empathy. A far right Christian nationalist pastor by the
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: name of James White came onto the internet, specifically Twitter,
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: to talk about the sins of empathy. In it, he
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: talks about his ideas that bringing in someone's trauma and
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: making others feel sad or guilty is selfish and poisoning
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: the church. According to his site from Alpha and Omega,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: in an apology at Church, he wrote what he'd originally tweeted,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: which is, hey, folks, Jesus endured all the trauma needed
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: to accomplish a redemption and reconciliation. Dragging your emotional trauma
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: into the fellowship and making everyone else feel guilty for
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: it is the perfect poison for the body. And this
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: is capital body. Get over yourself. Is all about him,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: not you. And in the second tweet, it says, when
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: you start with Man as image bearing creature of God,
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  Speaker 2: you can understand why sympathy is good, but empathy is sinful.
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  Speaker 2: Do not surrender our mind to the sinful emotional responses
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: of others. So he goes on to justify his tweets
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: with the following from that blog quote. Now, fact of
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: the matter is I packed more than sufficient context into
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: those two sentences to have stopped ninety five percent of
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: the absurd blowback that came my way if people were
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: not already infected with the quote empathy as required for
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: everyone and is how you are loving balderdash of a
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: rapidly dying culture. I mean, check it out. So this
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  Speaker 2: is still his quote. I made the context that of
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  Speaker 2: creation with Man as the image bearer, the exact opposite
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: of the secular worldview, should have been a context settler. Two,
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  Speaker 2: I asserted a direct contrast between the goodness of sympathy
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: and the sinfulness of empathy. Three. I then made it
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: clear what is sinful about this you of empathy? It
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: involves the surrender of our minds to the sinful emotional
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: responses of others. Just so y'all understand, secular means non church,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: non Christian, and I think people already know that. But
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: just in case you know, in my mind, yes people
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: know this, but I grew up in church. Lingo, there's
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: so much in his Like I said what I said
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: in his blog, y'all, I have once again corrupted my
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: search with all of this, just so you know. So
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: now I'm getting things that I'm like, No, but why
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: so if why I don't look at these up? If
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: you don't want that type of extremism in your in
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: your in your search results, now you should clean that.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I do need to. It's I'm a personal one too.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you've got to fix that up anyway. And
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: to give more context of why empathy is the problem,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: he further explains, quote, so what is the problem with
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: empathy today? We are, in fact told to weep with
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: those who weep, But that assumes those who we have
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: a reason for weeping that is in line with God's revelation.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: We are not to weep with a drug dealer who
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: accidentally drops his stash down the storm drain in New
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: York City. We are not to weep with a bankropper
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  Speaker 2: who botches the job and ends up in the slammer.
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  Speaker 2: We are plainly to exercise control even in our sympathy.
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  Speaker 2: We are not to sympathize with sin, nor are we
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  Speaker 2: to sympathize with rebellion or evil. And again they are
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: the authority of what is sin and evil as a
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: context here, of course, here we could talk a lot
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: about the hypocritical nature of how we should also not
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: allow a rapist convicted felon not only lead the country
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: but put him on a pedestal that many see him
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: as directly appointed by the same God. Or how often
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: churches will hide predators by allowing forgiveness and empathy to
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: be the lead so that the predators can continue to
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: lead in the same churches. You know, don't worry about
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: that part. We're not talking about. That's not real sin, right.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Of course we could also go into the deeper level
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: of Calvinism, and that's the whole division in itself when
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: it comes to religion and denomination and Calvinism being essentially
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: like you can't do and it's God's plans, so why
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: even try it? People have been ordained, previously preordained into
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: this role that you're in, so why do you even try? Essentially,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: there's a weird level of like seniority and like supremacy
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: when it comes to that conversation, I'm about to get
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: people mad at me. I don't care, come at me,
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  Speaker 2: bro So No, it seems the sin of empathy is
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: when we are empathetic to homosexuality, which he uses as
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: an example of quote the Great Empathy commandment that has
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: been used for the quote degradation of Christian morals and ethics. Well,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: from that blog quote, sixty years ago, it was almost
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: unthinkable that Christian people would buy a majority think homosexuality
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: a quote gift from God. But that is the case today.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Why empathy? And this is still his quotes. He's saying,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: walk a mile in their shoes, consider their life, enter
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: into their emotional experience, and enter into as capitalized. Then
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: it went from a simple homosexuality to the redefining of marriage,
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: now polyamory, polygamy, and with twenty fifteen. Every form of
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: gender destroying quote experience, you must empathize. You must quote
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: enter in, or you're unloving already. The push to empathize
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  Speaker 2: with those who naturally experience quote intergenerational love pedophiles is
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: in the academy and the culture. Marrying your cat or
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: your Siamese fighting fish is just around the corner. Just
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: empathize with the experience, validate it, then submit okay, and
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: it should be noted as ady you talked about before.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: He uses every stereotypical offensive defense against not even stereotypical,
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  Speaker 2: just like outright wrong, a defense against homosexuality, pedophilia, marrying
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: your pets, etc.
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  Speaker 1: I'm so interested about a Siamese fighting fish. I don't
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  Speaker 1: know if that's to.
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  Speaker 2: Say it out loud, because I don't know what that
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: is up and he just wanted to be racist about it.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: At the same time, it's quite possible that feels like
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  Speaker 1: that guy's mo oh, and I don't know him.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: We don't know him, we don't know that's man. Not
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: sorry to that man. If you are a person who
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: knows about fish and that is actually a fighting that
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: is a thing, please send us that picture because I
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: need to know what this is and who's being racist?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, we laughed, so we don't cry.
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  Speaker 2: I read all. I read it so you didn't have to. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: they you do every trick in the book in order
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: to make you feel insane for being kind and compassionate.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, to be fair, this is one step away
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  Speaker 2: from love, uh hate the sin love the sinner mentality,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: which by the way, is so condescending. But there's really
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: like nothing I can say to that, but they do.
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  Speaker 2: They He hits on every nerve of like what is
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: what's next? You're gonna you're gonna marry, You're gonna marry
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  Speaker 2: your favorite shoe and say that's your like if that
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: y'all owe me present to the people that I bought
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: your heterosexual wedding day gifts to and all y'all owe
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: me money. So I'm gonna marry my shoes so you can.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: That's gonna be take it out of context somewhere. But
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: like he does, he gets through every level of like
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: insulting manner to say homosexuality is so bad and leads
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: to other sins But by the way, I have never
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: heard anybody, especially from like those who struggle to come
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: out saying this was a gift from God, like saying
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: that they have learned to love themselves. Yeah, I have
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  Speaker 2: heard that. Yeah, but the struggle and the fight and
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: the and the like constant way to prove their humanity
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: that they A lot of people wouldn't necessarily say that.
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  Speaker 1: No, And I've told the story before in middle school.
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  Speaker 1: In middle school, I would pray to God, please you
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: did not make me gay. Please let that not be true.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: It's yeah, it is. I was scared of it, right,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: and it's really sad to look back now. But no,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: I'd never considered it a gift from God. I think,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: like the other part of that conversation is there's a
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: lot of like, well, why would God make me like this?
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Are you telling me I'm defective?
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Clearly that's what this guys.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And obviously all gay people are in polyamorous relationships,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: all of them.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because we're so sexual, even the asexual.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Ones we love because we don't want to cry, y'all.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: So un with that. White is having this conversation in
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, so obviously he has been ascribed to this,
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: and the idea kind of has kept spreading, if not
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: just growing and has become political. Two books are or
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: have been written with this idea, won by Alibeth Stucky
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: titled Toxic Empathy How Progressive exploit Christian compassion?
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  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: By the way, her website is bright blue and so lovely,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: and she's exactly what you would imagine as a Christian
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: white woman with all the makeup. Anyway, a bit from
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: her website Toxicempathy dot com, they write and Toxic Empathy.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Alibeth Stucky argues that empathy has become a tool of
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: manipulation by left wing activists, wholly people into believing that
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: they must adopt progressive positions to be loving. She explores
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: the five most heated issues through which toxic empathy is deployed. Abortion, gender, sexuality, immigration,
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  Speaker 2: and social justice. Progressives use catchy mantras to present their
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: perspective as empathetic, like abortion is healthcare, love is love,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: or no human being is illegal, but in each case
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: they ignore the other side of the moral equation. For example,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: abortion is presented as compassionate for the woman, but what
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: about the human life the procedure kills. The book isn't
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: about killing empathy, It's about submitting our empathy to God's
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: definitions of love, goodness, and justice. Stucky exposes the logical
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: pitfaults and moral consequences of toxic empathy, equipping questions with
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: research back to biblical truths to dismantle the progressive lives
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: that have permeated our culture and our church. So I
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: love the only thing that they can argue about in
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: the actual summary is abortion. They can't talk about immigration
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: and social justice much in itself because I'm like, how
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: how what?
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah? And i' mean going back to the hypocrisy, it's
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: just it feels, so are you being a compassionate Christian?
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Like this doesn't feel like you're listening to the to
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: yourself talk?
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, of course the level of like you're killing
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: a baby, That rhetoric in itself has been used forever, yes,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: and then telling people well if you have been aborted.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and it's also like it it's so it's
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: just so hypocritical because you know, like these are these
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: are just phrases like abortion is healthcare, love is left.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: There's a lot more nuanced to that stuff. There's a
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: lot more behind that. There's a lot of research backing
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: that strife fact, but to just use it as like
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: they're trying to make me care about someone else, and
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: here's why it's bad sin.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: How dare you? Oh my goodness, we're I obviously I
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: have not read this book. Everything comes from just directly
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: from the site and my opinions and my assumptions, Like,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: let's say that on what this is going to be,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there's going to be tales of crimes committed
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: by refugees or whatever that are that happened, but they're
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: dropping the bucket compared to the crimes that have happened
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: by white men. Let's just be honest. I mean again,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: our president of fellin yep. So the one that is
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: coming out this year is by Joe Rigney titled The
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Sin of Empathy, Compassion and its Counterfeits. So Rygney is
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: actually credited with coining the term in twenty nineteen for
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: his church. So he is the one that people are
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: saying he's the one that began this. In his blog,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: he uses a CS Lewis book screwtape letters to get
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: this point across. So here's a bit from Baptistnews dot com.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Writing to his imaginary friend Wormwood. Rigney advises quote by
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: elevating empathy over compassion as a superior virtue. There is
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: now an entire culture devoted to the total immersion of empathy. Books,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: articles in social media all trumpet the importance of checking
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: one's own beliefs, values, judgments, and reasons at the door
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: of empathy. So in this article written by Mark Wingfield,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: which by the way, I like he must really be
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: in this as well, because he's his articles kind of
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: keep popping up for me in baptistnews dot com. And
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: he is a Christian, by the way. In this conversation,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: but he wrote this in twenty twenty one, and he
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: goes on to explain how Rigney now sees empathy as
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: a sin, that empathy trumps any religious ideal and belief
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: therefore has become an idealized emotion used as a weapon
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: against Christians. This is what he say, Rigney is saying.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: And here they often argue the need for sympathy said,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and when I say that, I don't mean Wingfield, I
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: mean Rigny and those who believe this idea. Interestingly, we
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: in social work believe people and I believe people like
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: in the therapy world also talk about the differences of
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: sympathy and empathy, and sometimes used in conversation of what
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: a sociopath and a psychopath can experience due to the
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: lack of empathy, like, without it, you're probably a sociopath
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: or a psychopath or a narcissist, somewhere on that level
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: where you cannot understand other people and therefore you are
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: so involved in yourself that you do not care about
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: the harm you cause because you don't have empathy. The
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: sounds like an overarching statement. So of course I'm not
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: saying everyone that's not the case, but we're saying that
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: in this conversation that can be one of the things
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: that people look at and be like, oh, it looks
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: like he's lacking empathy. That explains why he did it
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: this way because he could not understand the humanity. And
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: again not for all people, because I've met people who
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: couldn't who have admitted they couldn't empathize, but they sympathized
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: and understood the good and wrong in this situation. So
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: believe that that. I'm sure the theories have moved. It's
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: a lot more complex than that, but there's still something
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: to note. So moving on. According to the different articles
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: that talk about this big debate. Many Christians disagree full
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: hardly with this take and have even left churches due
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: to this take. So Wrigley's church was actually I don't
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: know if you know who John Piper is, but he
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: wrote the book Desiring God and Yo when I was
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: in my Christian world, that was huge. That was huge.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of shame I have in that realm
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: of the world. So for those of you who may
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: have known me from my years of Christian antics, I
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: am so sorry. I've changed. I am so sorry. But
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: with all of that, the people like in that church
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: actually split with him Rigney and Rigney left that church
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: because it became such a huge thing. They had this
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: whole one hundred and fifth anniversary that they had to
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: pause because of this debate that he'd started on their side.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: So again, not all Christians feel this way. One such
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: person who is pushing back on this doctrine includes Scott McKnight,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: and he is quoted in Wingfield's articles saying, from the
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: best I can tell, these denouncers of empathy are distinguishing
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: the virtue of compassion from the potential vice of empathy.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: He writes, the former means to suffer with the latter
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: to suffer in or to fill with and fill in.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: The former is rational, the latter appears to be less
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: rational and perhaps irrational, at least in their constructions. It's
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: okay to suffer with, but not to suffer in this view,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: McKnight says, this may be the most unwise piece of
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: pastoral theology I've seen in my life. Pastors without empathy
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: are not pastoring. Dang right. I'm like, okay, okay, see,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: we're gonna give both sides to this, because I don't
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: believe it's everyone and is not. Here's another quote from
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: that article. Quote. Shane mo is a licensed marriage and
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: family therapist and trauma treatment provider in private practice in
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: the Twin Cities area. He has extensive experience treating a mental, emotional,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: and relational health concerns in the Christian community. He sees
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: in the empathy as sin crowd a fear of vulnerability.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: These advocates quote appear to assume that empathy inherently makes
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: one untethered, that one can't experience empathy towards someone else
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: without losing oneself, getting hijacked, or sort of becoming the
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: other in belief or practice. Mose talking about the fear
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: of vulnerability from this group of male believers specifically, So
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: he goes on to say within that article, Yes, allowing
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: ourselves to experience empathy can make us more vulnerable to
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: gasp the influence of those who think differently than we do,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: he explains, And if one lives in a perpetual state
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: of spiritual hypervigilance or fear of potentially being wrong or corrupt,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: and thus with a deep seated existential anxiety surrounding theological
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: eye theological differences and change, one might consequently come to
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: see empathy as a threat. And as we've talked about
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: this before, this theory could be an issue of control
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: within the religious world. As So concludes in his interview
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: with this comment, if someone is saying you can't experience
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: empathy without being compromised by another person, there's a good
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: chance they're projecting out of their own psychosocial emotional boundary deficits,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: lack of emotional intelligence or absence of self differentiation. Mowarms.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: There are reasons some of my client's family members who
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: exhibit narcissistic traits and who have engaged in consistent patterns
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: of spiritual and psychological abuse toward My clients have been
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: attracted to this empathy as a sin teaching and to
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: this church. It feeds perfectly into their narcissism and psychological
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: dependence upon maintaining power and control. Now that's something that
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: we were talking all throughout our Religious Trauma episodes about
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: what this is. It is not about spirituality, it's not
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: about beliefs, it's not about stating peace. It is about control.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: And this narrative fits in perfectly if they were losing
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: people because people were like, wait, why are you being mean?
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: That doesn't seem christ like. They were losing people that way,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: so they're like, Eh, no, that's the sin. You're being fooled.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Don't care. You can feel sorry for them, but being
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: sorry for them is enough. Pity is enough, but you
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: shouldn't be accepting of anything. So within this conversation, it's
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: going to become more and more of a defense within
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: the right wing religious conservatives. When Episcopal Bishop Mary and
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Buddy came on to speak at the inaugural prayer service,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Trump supporters were upset as she made a plea to
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: the new president for mercy, with her words quote, let
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: me make one final plea, mister President, the soft spoken
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: bishop said from the pulpit of the Washington National Cathedral,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: I asked you to have mercy upon the people in
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: our country who are scared.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: There are gay, lesbian, and transgendered children in Democratic, Republican
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: and independent families, some who feel for their lives. The
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: vast majority of immigrants are not criminals, calling them good
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: neighbors and faithful members of religious communities. So that was
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: a quote from the Daily Costs, who were just like
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Republicans are mad. They're mad, and we're going to actually
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: talk a little more in a different episode about her,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: but like that was it. That was her speech was
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: about unity and coming together and and knowing that this
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: is a really hard time. But having the president there,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: she's like, let me ask, let me just ask you
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: please think about these people. And she is very self spoken,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: like nothing is threatening, yelling or any of that. She
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: just quietly said this no nicer than I could mm hm. Obviously,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: So the right wing community came out swinging, including tweets
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: and posts reminding their followers quote, do not commit the
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: sin of empathy. So Ben Garrett went on saying in
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: his tweet, quote, this snake is God's enemies and yours too.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: She hates God and his people. You need to properly
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: hate in response. She is not merely deceived, but is
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: a deceiver. Your eye shall not pity like he full
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: on tells them to hate her. Wow for saying marciful hate.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's not what I remember in my during my
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: tenure at church.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: And I believe he's a deacon and writes for a
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: church as well, so as a former believer in myself,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: this idea has baffled me. I have I've thoughts, so
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: many thoughts, but it's like baffling to understand why they
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: would do this. But at the same time, you know
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: why they would do this. We know why. We know
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: the play. We've already talked about it, we've made it
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: an eight to ten part series. We know why. But
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: after using emotion as a tool to reign in their
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: grow with fear and hell, they now have to turn
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: that around to remind people to not feel too much,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: because to truly love is something that makes many people
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: see the truth. So like, maybe I'm saying that too optimistically,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Like people who really realize that what's happening here, you
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: know that maybe that's the point of like, oh wait, this,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: this seems off. This seems off again. Maybe I'm being
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: too optimistic, but like we noted, there's a lot of
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: people who are like, this is not this is not it.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: This is not it. This is not the Jesus I know.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Interesting side note, some have stated that Rigney has made
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: statements implying marital rape does not exist, and I believe
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: he said that in sermons, but I could not find
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: the sources specifically. And I will say this was a
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: quick research, like it took me less time to do
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: this than my typical episodes. But there's plenty of conversations
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: out there. So what I did see is that groups
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: are using his books coming out as well his conversations
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: before his blogs, because these aren't many of papers on
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: this to remind their followers that women are very vulnerable
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: to empathy and that is why they need to be controlled.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: From your source. One dot com dominic Vonnie talks about
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: a sermon by Gray City church pastors who apparently Rickney
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: has mentored and it has many conversations with them where
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: he states the church pastor states empathy almost needs to
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: be struck from a Christian vocabulary. McPherson said, that's the pastor.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Empathy is dangerous. Empathy is toxic. Empathy will align you
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: with hell. And it's women who are especially susceptible to
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: feeling empathy. That's why men need to control who they
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: are in contact with. It's not ungodly for a man
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: to speak into who his wife is friends with, who
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: she can hang out with, who she listens to. McPherson says,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: women can be vulnerable two friends and those she has
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: a history with, and it is a husband's job to
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: control those relationships lest she do you participate in spread
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: or listen to gossip and slander against the church like
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Maphearson McMullen, who is another pastor, connects gossip to empathy
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: and frames them as largely female sins, and that seems
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: to be the beginning of one of the hour long sermon,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: continuing on with the explanation of women being the weaker sex.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Women who are strong causes divide relationships. They are the
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: ones who plant the sin of divorce, and that's why
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: they're so much divorce. Like this is all within the sermon.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Of course, within all of this, we have the everlasting
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: sin of impurity. Because you got to add that in
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: there somewhere. So in a medium dot com post, Dan
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Foster writes, quote, according to Rigney, compassion is good because
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: it allows you to care while maintaining control. Empathy, however,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: is dangerous because it involves stepping into another person's experience
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: so deeply that you risk losing perspective. But this isn't
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: just about perspective, It's about purity. Under Ringney's logic, the
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: real danger of EmPATH the isn't just that it clouds judgment.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: It's that it might lead us to feel too much
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: for the wrong people. That if we sit too long
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: with the grieving, the suffering, the broken, we might start
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: to understand them, And if we understand them, we might
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: start to care about their pain in a way that
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: disrupts our theology. That's the fear. So this whole level
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: which is coming out in force, is again mainly due
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: to the whole lack of asking for empathy from an
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: administration that has none asking for mercy. There's a lot happening,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: and the underlying reasons are different for different people. But
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: as we continue to talk about how Christian nationalism has
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: come into power, we have to understand some of their
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: tactics and how dangerous their rhetoric is. The loss of
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: empathy means a loss of humanity. Again, it's very obvious
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: by the many articles and please from the other Christians
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: about how dangerous and wrong this narrative is. That many
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Christians do not believe in this idea, but many are
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: ignoring it for the sake of unity or just the
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: sake of being comfortable. And that is so dangerous, not
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: holding your own people, their own people to a standard
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: and calling out what they see is wrong. And that
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: is a problem. And I say this as I have
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: a whole family who I am scared of losing my
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: family with this type of rhetoric. And the minute they
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: speak this rhetic to me, I know it'll be over
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: like that. It's going to end so many things. That
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: means I've lost my second family literally like my biological
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: family and my adoptive family. But it has to be
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: at the very least they need to understand how uncomfortable
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: this is. That they need to see how oddly like
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: they went from people who my mother is the queen
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: of empathy to the reason why I was adopted in
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: the first place. Can't understand how this is so damaging
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: just because she just ignores it and says things like
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: they don't really mean that. M hm, that's not what
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: they really mean. Yeah, and for the same people who
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: sit here and going, yeah, but I'm fysically conservative, that's conservative.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: That's why I voted that way. M h and not
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: get I know our listeners you probably are like, no,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: I'm with you, I'm with you, But I think it's
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: something to know that we have to know exactly what
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: is being said, yeah, and why it's dangerous. Yeah.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: I mean again, especially given where our politics are, we
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: have to pay attention to a lot of really terrible
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: stuff unfortunately. But yes, whoa listeners. If you have any
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: thoughts about this, please let us know. You can email
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: us at Hello at stuff Whenever Told You dot com.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: You can find us on thu ski at mom Stuff
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff When Never
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Told You. We're on YouTube, we have a tea public store,
• 30:56
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• 30:57
  Speaker 1: get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: executive Bruce and Maya, and a contributor Joey. Thank you
• 31:02
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• 31:05
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• 31:06
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