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Interview with Jane Ostler · The Last Analog Marketers

• speaker-0: And now, you're listening to the Last Analog Marketers Podcast. For marketers who lived through the transition to digital and the newcomers who inherited the results, using the past as a lens to understand the present and navigate the future with intention. With your hosts, Aaron Peterson and Jamie Jones. speaker-1: So here's a number that stopped me. Seventy five percent of marketers plan to increase investment in AI assistants in the next year. But at the same time, only twenty three percent of consumers say that they trust what those AI assistants are recommending. speaker-2: So the industry is sprinting towards the robots and the people standing at the door have their arms crossed. I guess for a show called The Last Analog Marketers, that's a perfect topic. speaker-1: That it is. Hi everyone and welcome to The Last Analog Marketers. I'm Aaron Peterson. speaker-2: And I'm Jamie Jones. Today we're digging into Cantar's Media Reactions 2026 study. It's based on interviews with over 800 senior marketers and 23,000 consumers, and it covers AI, media, confidence, and the creator economy. speaker-1: And we've got the perfect person to walk us through it. Jane Osler is EVP of Global Thought Leadership at Cantar and has been an influential part of this report for many years. She's also a former colleague and a longtime friend, so Jane, welcome to the podcast. speaker-0: Thank you. Great to see you both. speaker-1: Yeah, it's great to have you. And in fact, the report we're going to discuss today, Media Reactions, was originally two separate reports. Ad Reaction was a study of consumers and Getting Media Right was a study of marketers. And how we got to know each other was that I was the author of the Getting Media Right study for many years and I worked with you, Jane, and the team when we combined the two reports to what it is today. So I'm excited to get to talk with you about it. speaker-0: Yeah, it's still relevant, super relevant today, all of these topics. So it was a great start working with you on those. speaker-2: Yeah, I mean that's one of the amazing things about Cantar is the number of reports that have come out for such a long time and are still so relevant and people wait around to to get them. So I'm excited to hear more about what is included in this year. But before we get into the insights from the report and their implications, we'd like to hear a little bit about more, a little bit more from you, Jane. how did you get into marketing and market research? Was it planned or did you kind of just fall into it? speaker-0: It's really good question, actually. And I have to confess it was pretty much a kind of random accident. I had been working in advertising and media for quite a few years, mainly in digital media, for both creative agencies and media agencies. And then I moved into marketing and I worked on the switch over to digital television in the UK, and then I worked on digital radio, so it's always like media related. And you know, you know, when you've kind of like reached the end of, you know, d'hing so I've done this job now, I need to move on, I need do something different. And actually completely randomly a friend of mine said, well why don't you why don't you work in market research? And I thought, well, obviously I've had a lot of research before. I've used research, I've commissioned research, but I'm not a researcher myself. Anyway, I went for a few interviews in various places because obviously the the actual topics that I'd worked on, like digital media, advertising, creative, are all things that researchers need to know about and I ended up in a a commercial world role at Cantar Millwood Brown. Selling media and digital effect and creative effectiveness solutions. So really good, very high growth area, really interesting. You know, it was the early days of like TikTok and all the platforms, and everyone was just super excited about what it all meant. So it's very sort of experimental, as you know. So yeah, it was pretty much an accident, and it wasn't even my own idea either. speaker-1: Wha Was there a moment in in your career, especially like once you were doing that stuff at Cantor, was there a moment when you were doing that where you kind of thought, Okay, yes, this this is exactly what I want to be doing? speaker-0: Yeah, I think moving into I've I've done various roles, commercial role, product leadership, all sorts of different roles at Cantor, and I think it's always been the thought leadership, the creation of content, the proliferation of ideas on on a range of different kinds of marketing and brand growth topics, does interest me. And I think the connecting kind of thing there is and it connects with all my previous roles as well, is all of my jobs have involved simplifying. Very complex topics into fairly normal language for people. I think. you know, in the D digital TV switchover, I used to work with a whole bunch of engineers who were sort of talking about, you know, frequencies and transmissions, and we had to translate that into what it meant for consumers and viewers and what they had to do so they didn't lose their television. And I feel a bit like that with digital media and market research. It's like just use normal language that people understand. You know, we we love to make things more experts in any topic love to make things complicated. So I think it's when I it was the realization as all I'm not a researcher, like I'm not like all these thousands of people who know all about you know techniques and statistics and how things work and do all the work behind the scenes and and you know front up to clients and ask a answer really difficult questions. But there is a role for somebody who can interpret like what all this means for modern marketing. So I I I feel like I I found my niche. speaker-2: The fact that Jane Osler has imposter syndrome in market research to me blows my mind because to me you are market research. but you know what? That that is very humbling. and I love that you can be so honest about it. And that's a great story about how you got into this role. Today your title is EVP Global Thought Leadership. and that's really impressive. But I suspect that some listeners might not understand what that actually means on a day-to-day basis. Can you talk a little bit about what your role involves today? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, i i all job titles are a bit weird to be honest, aren't they? 'Cause they always sound a bit ridiculous. but I think what my role is, I am not although I present a lot to our clients, I my role is not a client-facing role. My job and my small team's job is to come up with our opinions, our points of view, commission original analysis, about ideas that we have, about how marketing is progressing and what the important things are in the market that CM That marketers need to know about, and to provide some context and some reports. So literally, we produce everything from you know a one-line response to a journalist on a topic, you know, like what's going on with creative marketing, right through to in-depth reports involving analysis of huge amounts of data so that we can make sense of some of the themes for marketers, but always grounded in our insights and our data. speaker-1: That's really interesting. I think that you know, being able to you are in a unique position because of like you said, you didn't necessarily come from that hard research role. So it allowed you to really communicate those ideas in a way that connects with the audience that's on the other side of it. I think that the thought leadership pieces that you and your team have been putting together, which of course I still follow because I you know, I think you guys are really great and fantastic and what you do is really smart. I think that, you know, it's clear that you are answering those questions and you're providing that insight to the industry, right? Which is part of what we originally were doing, you know, with these reports, right? We were trying to help marketers better understand where there might be like gaps in in what they might even think or believe. And I think there's even some instances still in this year's report where there's maybe some misconceptions about what they think consumers might Be responsive to and such, so speaker-0: I mean the great thing about working for a sort of data insights organization is you've always got the data right. So you can always make your points fairly effectively. speaker-2: Data. speaker-0: Yeah, sometimes and it's our job to simplify that too. but often, you know, there are a whole range of topics in marketing which kind of overlap and interrelate whether it's brand or brand growth or brand value or experience, you know, media creative. Everything is innovation, everything is changing super fast and everything is being supercharged by AI. So the great thing is, like for somebody of my kind of inquisitive mind, like there's always new things to do and there's always new Yeah. and you have to work out like what's changing and what stays the same, like what principles endure. So, you know, the whole advent of Gen AI, AI behind the scenes in marketing, and you know, AI and consumer usage and how it's being used by agencies and how it's affecting advertising is like a very, you know, it's a very rich topic. so and it's some you know, we we listen to our clients, we listen to questions in the industry, and we hear what people want to know. No, and you know that's what we're trying to provide is like intelligence that can help and support their growth. speaker-1: I love that. well let's just go ahead and dump jump right into the report then. So let's start with the stat the stat from the st top of the show. so a net 75% of marketers say they plan to increase their investment in AI assistance in 2027. 62% of them expect generative AI to play a pivotal role in brand recommendations. but we saw that obviously the consumer trust there is not yet there. But is this the fastest that you've seen marketers move money towards something? Because as you mentioned, you also came in, you know, at this, you know, advent of TikTok, and that also had a lot of money, you know, thrown at it at the beginning too, but is this a faster adoption than even that? speaker-0: Yeah, I think it is. we've been tracking this for five years and it's like intentions to spend in the following year. So that's the question we're asking. And it's a net figure because we add together the positives and the negatives. So this is like really positive figure about spend on AI. And clearly it's starting from a low base. So when you're increasing your spend on something from a low base, it you know, it can you know, obviously a lot of people are in marketers are intending to do that. It does feel very significant. and yes, it is faster. I think Possibly the reason why is because you know you always have early adopters on a platform like people, you know, brands who are advertising on TikTok, for example. Others may have taken time to catch up a little because they think, maybe it's not appropriate for my category or I don't quite trust them or what's the issue, you know. And obviously they've caught up massively on trust this year. But I think there's always a reason why, you know, some marketers are super keen about some platforms or or aspects of marketing. And other marketers are more reticent. I think AI is a kind of force which clearly marketers can't ignore. It's already reshaping how people are discovering brands. And frankly, if you're not doing it, you're going to be missing out. So there's a bit of FOMO probably going on as well. And you know, most people in their everyday lives, you, me, you know, we we're all using AI in some shape or form, whether we Have an LLM app, or whether you know, even when you use Google, you're using it without even trying. So I think it's their, you know, it's not like you know, you might be a marketer who'd never looked at TikTok 10 years ago, so it'll all be like, what's that? What's going on there? But like everybody is using AI. So you know, with most people around the world in most markets already using AI assistance, I think it's something like 72-73%. across our 33 markets that we measured. You know, and many people do feel positive about the possibilities that it brings. But I think brands are still trying to figure out what their role is and how they can perhaps influence the results or you know how they show up in AI answers. And that's something we've spent a lot of time working on in the last 18 months or so at Cantar. speaker-2: I think that's super interesting, right? Writing content for AEO versus writing content for a human and kind of balancing that. Certainly something that I'm thinking a lot about. talk speaker-0: Mm. speaker-2: about the consumer side, right? Like we're all marketers. We are kind of early adopters when it comes to technology. And we like looked at AI probably as individuals and jumped in with two feet, but it feels like sometimes I have to remember that that's not. How everybody feels, especially maybe different generations. So talk about the gap in trust. you know, you talked about AI assistance and you know, using those to reach brands and products, but also like only 23% of the people that you queried trust the recommendation. So, like, why the gap? Talk about that gap. speaker-0: Well I think we all know that, you know, it's always a good idea to check an AI answer, especially if it's something that your, you know, is a kind of, you know, decision grade of decision grade importance. You know, if it's something you know, fairly small, you know, that's fine. But you know, I think there's a trust gap, first of all, because it's lot like, you know, where's the watertightness in the recommendations? Do I really trust this data? you know, I went ha I had a Go on a holiday a couple of weeks ago, and we have an electric vehicle, so we need to plug in the car every now and then to get you know to get the electricity. And I did a I didn't look on the hotel's website, I I asked an AI assistant, and it said yes, yes, it's got a high speed charger, and all this guy so we've got there, obviously, no such thing of the kind. So, like it's always a good idea to check. That's where I think the trust gap shows up. and you know, people are. Keen to use AI technology in general. Clearly, as consumers, we're all very keen to use it. I think the more you go up the ladder, the more you're asking it to make important decisions for you, the more autonomy you might give it. You know, as we go towards agents, for example, the more reticent people are to give power over completely. I guess the only other thing that happens, another piece of research we've done shows that actually brands only actually show up in about 40% of answers. So It's not like there's you know i it's not that brands are showing up all the time and clearly the type of questions that we are asking of AI as consumers might be so niche in their topic that for example the normal everyday household brands that we might expect to be there don't actually show up because somehow that product information, that data isn't encoded on a knowledge graph somewhere. So the AI doesn't know about it. And it does give the opportunity for niche brands and maybe for startup brands to kind of be more present when people are in, you know, in have this topic in mind. So I think brands need to be kind of really cognizant of the fact that yes, they need to show up there. Just because you're there in an AI answer doesn't necessarily mean it's good. So we hear a lot about visibility, don't we? you know, is you gotta be visible, you've got to be visible. Yeah, you but you could be really bad visibility. It could be really negative sentiment, for example. and we've got examples of, you know, looking at, for example, The airline category, where a brand, a really well-known brand, might be hugely visible but have negative sentiment. And there's some really you know brands with very high sentiment, but they're not very visible, so it's actually more nuanced than just kind of being there. so I think different categories also, you know, the art, the sources, the citations come from loads of different places. I mean, I've got Example many examples where actually, even for a fairly simple question, the answer will draw from two, maybe 300 sources of publicly available information on the internet. So you do hear a lot like, you know, it's Reddit, it's all about Reddit. Yes, customer experience is really important because it's all going to feed into the AI answer, but Reddit usually is like between two and nine percent, according to our estimates, of citations come from Reddit, depending on the Category. So actually, there's a whole host of other places that need to be kind of influenced in terms of content or product information or marketing. So as marketers, you know, they need to know how to influence these at the at the start, but as consumers, we also need to be very clear where the sources are. Like, are they trustworthy sources themselves? How is the answer showing up? So it's a really interesting kind of brands and consumers are both learning all at the same time. speaker-1: It certainly feels that way, especially because it kind of reminds me of when Snapchat was first coming on board or then TikTok not long after that. And I remember being in some of those conversations with you at some of our in person events with clients, Jamie there also, and us having these conversations where you know, markers were throwing money at those platforms when they first came out, but they didn't really even know what they were doing with it yet. They just knew they needed to be there doing something. And it feels like to some degree that is happening again here, right? And in fact, in the release that you all put out with the report, your colleague Gansha Boubani said, pretty bluntly, I'd say There's a quote, there's a lot of money moving towards AI on the assumption people will use it the way the industry expects. And I that immediately resonated with me because it kind of goes back to that original question of like, do marketers really understand how the people on the other side are using this stuff and how they're going to engage with it? because yeah, to your point, the way they ask a question. Or or the way they engage with their assistant over time and if they have an assistant that they're, you know, growing over time, that could lead them down a path where they almost never see the brands that they might expect to see or the brand might expect them to see. So do you feel like that's a warning though to the industry, that that statement? speaker-0: guess I guess it's probably it's not a kind of s stop, you know, you mustn't do this, but it's more of a kind of word of caution that you know Measuring and learning, like I feel like I've been saying this for decades now. Measuring and learning about new techniques, new approaches, new ways to operationalize marketing is like that never stops. And you know, even with more established channels, for want of a better word, people are still learning, you know, how connected TV works. They're still learning, you know, creator marketing's. Been around for you know a decade now, but it's really only reaching maturity in terms of how people are considering you know how to measure it and what it can contribute and how it works alongside other channels, and what you're there might be different strategies, you know. and many marketers might see this as it's just a bolt-on, it's just like another channel, but It's a bit like I feel like it's a bit like the early days of the internet when maybe a narrow view of something is to see it as an ad channel or a place where you appear. Another way to look at AI and ai answers and how they might evolve into agents is it actually can do a whole load more. It's not just an ad, it's your content, it's the way that your brand shows up, it's it's meaning and it's different, needs needs to be expressed. It could also super quickly like many other channels become a commerce channel as well. So agents might be helping you along the way. You know, we nobody knows yet whether those agents will be kind of generic agents Agents that you know organisations, companies will develop, or whether there'll be, you know, there's the emergence, early emergence now of kind of shopper-specific agents that work on particular retail channels, for example. But you know, none of us know in five years' time or in ten years' time what the predominant kind of landscape will feel like. But you have to expect that regardless of the AI development, People need to have a point of view about your brand before they even use an AI assistant or an LLM. so you still need to use other forms of communication because then when they do see you in an AI answer, they go, yeah, yeah, I've heard of that. That one sounds good. I like that one. You know, so it's not like the AI world is completely separate from the real world. Everything is interrelated. and ultimately, what I think is really exciting is that for all the talk about technology and all the developments happening with AI. And all the exciting possibilities. Actually what it comes down to is what's your brand strategy? then and then what you do with it is is is the next question. speaker-2: I was gonna say like you keep I think we're we Aaron and I covered in the history of marketing a little bit about like when T V came in, then when the internet came in and we talked a little bit about AI, feeling like we're in that right now, just like an kind of a new channel, but also such a disruptor. I love the idea that it's it can be an umbrella more than just like another channel to think about. but I l I do agree with you that brand trust. starts from the very beginning of marketing and it's still relevant today. and the idea that trust now comes in so many different forms, right? Like I have I don't think I've said hallucination more than I've said it in the last few months because we're always like, is AI hallucinating? Is that a hallucination? And now it's just part of the vernacular that we're using. but again, I think the trust piece is something that Cantar has always really guided brands towards, right? Like if you have earned that trust and you have it, then wherever you s wherever you're seen, you'll already have that leg up. and I think, you know, going back to the report, you know, Paul Cantar CEO said strong brands have the to earn the right to be recommended by people and by the machines guiding them. And so it's the same as it's always been, right? earn the trust to be recommended. It's just that now you may get it from the machine versus a person. is there I think you've already kind of covered this a little bit, but is there anything new that brands have to be doing in order to like earn that right to be trusted? speaker-0: Yeah, well Paul is absolutely right. Yeah, it's about earning the right to be recommended. There's no kind of you know God-given sort of you know right that any any brand has. You've got to, and it's it's a something you need to can keep working at, you know, it's a bit like a relationship, isn't it? You've got to keep working at it. what we talk about a lot is the brands need to show up not only in the human mind, you know, which is what marketers have been working on for decades, but also how they show up in the machine mind. Now the thing is, you know, there's a whole science to that. It's a fast evolving science and it's super exciting, some of the kind of data visualizations, you know, how things are changing, you know, brands can be very clear on that. but as I said, it does come down to brand strategy in the end because it's about do you mean something to the consumer? Are you meeting an emotional or a functional need? is your brand doing that? And is your brand also standing out enough from competitors? to you know deserve a second glance if if you like. So the meaning and the difference is something that needs to be in the machine mind. But at the end of the day, at the moment, we are, you know, we talk about sort you know, the machine as if it's making decisions. It's not, it's still just making recommendations. Currently, AI is simply, in many ways, another influencer. It's influencing humans. I'm still buying my new pair of shoes at the end of the day. I'm still making that decision. Whoever's trying to influence me, and whether it's you know tr more traditional advertising or social commerce or whether it's an AI answer, I'm still making the decision. What's going to be really interesting is when agents, when we delegate a bit more to agents, and they're making decisions for us. you know, and what level of permission we're prepared to give them on what categories, what topics, you know, it might be it's fine if you're buying bleach or, you know, some household product that you're used to buying when it comes to, you know, something that's a bit more personal or needs a bit more thought or care or attention, maybe we'll be or financial services, for example, maybe we'll be a bit more cautious about those things. But speaker-2: It it sounds like sometimes with your it sounds like sometimes with your spouse or your partner you'll say like if something is this amount of money, we don't have to have a discussion about it. But if it's over this amount of money, we need to like collectively agree. So the agent becomes a I guess part of the new relationship. Like at this price point you can decide. At this price point, I need to approve your decision. speaker-0: Yeah, it's like a little mini kind of risk assessment, I guess, yeah. speaker-1: I guess. Well it's funny too because one of the things Jamie and I've talked about before on the podcast as well is how and this is maybe something that is an age thing, so I don't know if you feel this way we do as older millennials. I can't make big decisions and big purchases on my cell phone, right? Like I I I this year I I bought a new car. I like I'm not gonna buy my new car on my cell phone. I'm gonna pull up my my laptop at least and like do research and all that sort of stuff. And it feels kind of like the same sort of thing, but in a in a in a different scenario, but the same sort of idea applied to it. But what I think is kind of interesting about that concept too, and you sort of hit on this a little bit, which is just that the challenge with the agents is that they are still one, they're trained still by people on the back end, right? There's still a person on the back end of every agent somewhere. And number two, it is what they do is gonna be based off of what they are trained on and what they c have access to for information, right? So to your point, even if the even if Reddit isn't providing a large portion of it, but there is a portion of it it from Reddit and it's all negative about your brand. Yeah, then you risk that the AAI answer is gonna come back and not recommend your brand or have negative things to say about your brand just because of that environment it's grown into. So, you know, there there's like a there's a there's a plus and a minus, I guess, to to it, as there is with mouth most things. speaker-0: There is there is actually just on on that point. I also think this is all this whole topic is quite exciting because it sort of brings, you know, all the important principles back. Like we may have forgotten or brands may have forgotten over the last few years that actually customer experience is a really important thing. Certainly in some categories brands pay more attention to it, in others they really don't. and so in a way, you know, the brand experience is now much more. important than it was across all categories. And because it feeds the loop, it's not just keeping your customers happy, it's feeding the AI as well, the AI answers. So the we call it the experience loop. Like there's a really good reason for understanding and measuring and optimising your customer experience. So in a way it kind of it drags you know these questions or it drags with it all the marketing and brand techniques that marketers have at their disposal. they all become like supercharged with AI. So it's it's a very exciting time I think. speaker-1: Yeah, no, I think that's super interesting too, because yeah, I mean I think y you can see that the way that consumers are starting to interact with these questions and and the answers that are in there, obviously it it's s still they're going there for a resource, but they're there is still some trepidation, right? They are still to some degree being cautious. I think in some ways where I have concern is like will people look at the source of of the information because w we know at least historically in the US market that's that's not something that US consumers are necessarily generally good at. but in the report you also mentioned that if only like twenty-three percent of the consumers who are using this are trusting those AI recommendations, so not even a quarter of them, you know, should marketers wait to start to really focus on this as an engagement tool or how should they approach it knowing that the they won't necessarily see results from it right away, right? Which is a challenge for us in marketing because right now in marketing is in most roles, you're especially pushed hard on the number and the results that are going to come from your efforts. So yeah, what should marketers do with this? speaker-0: Well, I think I think doing nothing is is not an option. and you know, whilst, you know, they potentially have a role to play in in topping up that trust gap in, you know, in filling the gaps, you know, the more, you know, whole the whole point of a brand is that it's it's a trusted mark that people can rely on. It guarantees perhaps a certain level of quality or a level of service. That is the whole point of a brand. So the more that brands play a role in AIR Answers and the more work they do around that to build predisposition and to build trust, you know, they should help feed the quality. So I think what we would say is you know, it's when you test, when you experiment, which is a good idea, try and make sure you learn something from it. So evaluate what you're actually trying to test, have an objective, and then and then measure it and make that part. of the programme so you're not just throwing your money at something just because it's there you're you're actually trying to learn and understand and how to kind of continue to optimize. speaker-2: Yeah, like fail fast. But we say that as marketers. we hope we have bosses who agree with us, but we all know that someone reports to someone, reports to someone who wants to see results immediately. And I think coming right out of the report, you know, we're seeing that marketers' confidence is really down across the board. and I feel that, right? I feel that as a marketer because they're We don't know yet. We're still trying things and we're not sure what's working, but we're asking asking to be shown results or drive results really quickly. So just from the report, a couple of stats. you know, only half of marketers are confident they have the right balance between brand building and performance. I feel that very deeply. down from 60% in 2025. So I think adding AI and AI being so much more prevalent is obviously making people feel like There's more things to do, and I'm not sure if any of them are working. fifty-seven percent feel confident in their media mix, down from sixty-four percent last year, and only fifty-one percent feel they're getting actionable intelligence from their data. What is driving these drops and what do we do about it? speaker-0: So like I'd say to answer this one fairly briefly, I'd say what's driving that is continued fragmentation at scale, you know, like never before. Like we talk about media fragmentation and complexity for like for years now, but like it just keeps going, right? and with that, obviously becomes it becomes even more important to measure channels, activities, not measure them separately in silos, but to understand how they interrelate, what synergies there are, and what the overall impact on your brand is. Like we've been I've been tearing my hair out for years when you know still even now people are measuring creator marketing on engagement. And that very rarely correlates to the brand impact. So you think why are you looking at like likes? You know, it's like you know click through Rates or something is like that is not a strategic measurement platform. These are not things we should be worried about. We should be thinking about high level metrics and how everything ladders up and how it works together. So I think the issue is that marketers have had lots of specialists probably very diligently bringing them tons and tons of data about a new channel, but without the ability to actually work out which signals really matter and which ones link together and which ones are. Related. so yeah, I mean, marketers have got a big job to do now. It's an ever-expanding role with ever-expanding levels of expertise on different channels, different technologies, different techniques. and you know, bringing the measurement together is is a challenge. So I think that's probably where we see the the confidence issue falling because the debate about brand and performance marketing You know, likewise has been going on for years. You know, the reality is there is no perfect mix. You have to do your best and use your common sense in your communications. Everything can drive your brand, even a very sales focused piece of communication. So actually it's it's a fairly artificial divide and it's in many companies, many marketing organizations, it's actually they're run completely separately. So no wonder, you know, marketers are having problems uniting all this data and bringing it together to make it s feel strategic and actionable. speaker-2: When we talk about the alignment between sales and marketing, you're talking about the alignment between marketing and marketing. So certainly there's things for us to do internally, structurally within an organization just to get it right externally for the customers and the consumer base. So, you know, we're a work in progress, I guess, all all all over. speaker-1: Yeah, and Paul said it in the release, he said, the answer is better intelligence, not more data. So it's it's really about kind of like what do you do with what you have and how do you use it smartly. And you can have a lot of data, but just you need to make sure that what you have you're actually using. And if you aren't using it and it's not providing you useful insights to your point, click through rates, don't focus your time or waste your energy on recording that stuff because that's time and energy you could be focusing on something that actually has impact. Yeah. jumping into the the report and its ranking. So this year Cantar changed how it ranks the brands for advertising equity. Can you talk about how you've changed that metric just a little bit briefly? speaker-0: Yeah, we made a change to it this year for the first time to combine not only attitudes to advertising on a platform with actual exposure to it. So we've brought in, you know, the the concept of scale and reach is kind of built into the metric. So we're not just showing like where people are open to ads and where they're receptive to them and what they like and what they don't like about them. it's also the reach is kind of built into the metric too. so this is a new metric that we've we've we've augmented if you like this year. speaker-1: Yeah, it's very interesting. And part of for those of you if you haven't read the report before, and I encourage you to go read it now, but if you haven't, one of the things that's included in the report is a ranking, right? So you r rank the the media brands based off of the both the consumer and the marketer's viewpoint. And so this is one of those places where the report really shows you where there's like somewhat of a disconnect, right, in the focus between them. Because if you look if you look at the top five in each category, and I'll try to put a graphic on the screen here, what in production. but if you look at the top five, you'll see that they're not aligned in in terms of which ones they have ranked, in what order, except for in the very last ranking number five, they both do agree that Netflix is in that spot. so but what can you what do you make of the fact that, you know, for instance, Amazon is number two with consumers but doesn't even make it on the marketer side, TikTok is number four with marketers, but it's missing from the consumers list. Like what do make of those sort of changes that are we're seeing? speaker-0: Yeah, i it it's just interesting and it's always interesting every year 'cause there's always a a mismatch and this is one of the reasons why we do the report that you know it might be that the metrics that marketers are following are usage and consumers are using the platform maybe for other reasons other than to go there to view or experience advertising. So the ad experience is what we're really measuring here for consumers and what people really prefer and what they don't like. and so, you know, marketer trust Of a platform is only kind of you know one side of the picture. We see that if if you are receptive to advertising as a consumer on a on a on a platform, you know, the results will be better, the effectiveness will be better. So it's almost like We it's almost like we think this is a part of the equation that brands should consider when they're planning their campaigns or developing their campaign strategy. Where are consumers ref receptive to ads? Where are they going to be well received? It's not just like, is the channel right for my target audience? and you know, are they in the right age bracket and you know, all this other stuff? It's more like, you know, what are my chances of success if I have the Right placement, and I've got high quality content creative that I'm showing you. there's no point in running that on a platform where consumers might be really unhappy with excessive frequency of advertising, like it will put them off, they won't like it. So, all of these metrics we measure for each platform for each brand, and that's why it's it's a more nuanced picture than just like this one is good and this one is good. is bad. You know, every platform has positives and negatives. But consumers need to be receptive. We think that's really important as a factor in planning. And comparing the two views obviously points out what marketers need to know a bit more about. What is it that consumers don't like? You know, marketers can start to influence platforms if they believe there's there's some issues. And it matters even more as we move more investment to commerce media, retail media, creators, you know, all of these marketing channels have their own nuances and things that you need to take into account. speaker-2: I mean, really, that's as old school as it gets, right? Not whether you have a good message, not whether you're reaching an audience, but are they receptive to being advertised to, right? And we talk about that a little bit in the history, right? We just added more channels, more chances to advertise to them, but we haven't necessarily increased their receptiveness to being influenced by a message, right? We're still human. We're still the same human we were a hundred years ago. We just have things coming at us at all times. And I think sometimes as marketers, we forget that. We just think, they're here and they're here and they're here and we can reach them. But you did, you made mention of creators and creator content. So I wanna segue to that because obviously that's a totally new way to receive an advertising message that's been working really well for a lot of brands. Microcreators are at lead at 66%, then nano creators at 61%, macro influencers are at 48%, and mega influencers are at 42%. I have to be honest, I'm not even sure I know the difference between all of those, but I'm showing my age a little bit. can you talk a little bit about this new type of celebrity influence, these creators, and just how important it is in the marketing mix? speaker-0: Yeah, it's it's a super interesting topic because it's very broad, isn't it? It's like there's a lot going on here and you know and also definitions are you know slightly unclear in many ways because we have celebrities who are kind of who have become influencers in their own right, but we also have kind of, you know, content creators who have become celebrities in their own right and whether they cut through to other channels or, you know, w you know, they they they have you know, show up at Super Bowl or whatever it is. They're all you know, this is a very fluid economy, but one thing we have noted is that you know you can pretty much use creators for any category, any industry vertical. It can be made, they can be made appropriate for anything, and if they're credible and if they're authentic and if they're used right, and if they're briefed correctly, you know, the content can be incredibly powerful and influence people in a very meaningful way. And I think the reason why We see this increase in kind of micro and nano creators, like with much smaller follow accounts, is a change in strategy. Like you might be using creator content just to add to your reach outside of your traditional channel digital channel mix. We need to reach more people. We'll we'll go with these creators and we'll do some some program with these creators to expand our reach. But others, other brands are using them in completely different ways. It's like more in-depth, authentic relationships that these smaller creators have with their audiences or with their followers, can actually kind of embed marketing programs in a much more kind of convincing way, perhaps, than asking one mega piece of content. speaker-1: Well I it it makes sense because it I mean it literally goes back to something that we've talked about that just keeps reiterating itself with each new technology and each new media, right? Because even if you go back to, you know, magazines and of course like the first magazines were kind of more general interest. And then you started having more targeted magazines. The same thing happened with, you know, radio stations that started with certain program and then expanded. Cable network was an expansion of broadcast TV to niche and target these audiences. And you do find that once you find content that's much more relevant that the person, you know, can react to or resonate with, it's they're gonna be there and it's gonna be much easier to target them in that location. So it's really interesting. But so when if if follower count and engagement aren't the answer, then what should a brand be looking for then when picking a creator? speaker-0: Yeah, it's it's to do with authenticity and relevance and and you know its relevance ultimately and d d values, do the values align? And then there are some very practical points about the briefing process. I mean, fundamentally what we've been talking about today with AI and creators, a lot of it is from a marketer's point of view, a perceived loss of control. You know, you think about and I've spoken about this a few times, campaigns that used to be done a few years ago is like really easy. Like you control as a marketer you controlled the campaign. You had your budget, you started with some outdoor media, had a you know couple of weeks of that, led up to some broadcast TV, national TV. I'm I'm exaggerating here. speaker-1: Sure, but of course. speaker-0: Followed up with a bit of like you sort of targeted magazines for some audiences that you know, you know, none of that. And or some print advertising. You know, digital advertising has moved that debate on because obviously campaigns can be always on, they can be hyper-targeted, you know, and I think there's still some questions about targeting, and you know, AI delivers us the opportunity, nano creators deliver us the opportunity to have these kind of hyper-targeted messages produced at scale very quickly for very specific use cases, specific audiences, is that what we want? Is that what we want it to look like? The most powerful creator campaigns you know do have a link to together so the briefing process as I said is really important but marketers do need to understand that they they are you know, they're orchestrating now and how much their brand shows up and the consistency of how their brand is represented is kind of up to them. But we've got a lot of useful learnings about that. speaker-2: When when Aaron mentioned when Aaron mentioned magazines, I immediately thought of when they first started having to put special advertising on top of the ad because they started making the ads look so much like the content that was in the magazine and they had to say like this is actually paid. and sometimes creator content to me can feel like that, right? I can't tell if you really like this or you're being paid to like it. And so it's always interesting to me that we've kind of we're seeing the same problem or the same challenge, but just like a new channel or a new format. this has been really great conversation. Jane, as always, you have such a great perspective and I think we could probably chat for hours and hours, but I do think we probably want to start wrapping up towards the end. So I guess As we as we exit, you know, we think that marketers are betting on AI, like that's obvious. but they're doing it faster than maybe consumers trust it. So there's a gap. We chatted about that in the beginning. the confidence level and how the channels work together, still some work to be done. And then creators are, you know, putting something new into the mix that we're still not sure. And I immediately thought too, art and science, right? As you talked about vetting a creator, like it is a little bit of an art and science right now. And we're not exactly sure, but we can't not do it. And so fail fast, of course, comes in. And you know, Erin, I don't know what else you want to add to that as we as we lead out, but I'd love to hear Jane kind of leave us with her last thoughts and and talk a little bit to wrap up about the report because we'll link everything here and people can go experience it and get all that data themselves. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean to me it it just sounds a lot like the analog analog playbook, right? Like earn trust, know your audience, test before you bet the farm, right? Like take risks, but take informed risks. so yeah. you know, Jane, thanks so much for joining us. like we said, any last thoughts and and want to share where people can find the study and find you? speaker-0: Yeah, it's at camtar dot com forward slash media reactions and I'm Jane Osler on LinkedIn. speaker-2: She she comes without explanation. That's how incredibly we hold her to esteem. We hold her to a lot of esteem, me and Aaron. So she's just Jane, right? Yeah. speaker-1: I mean if I think of someone named Jane it's it's Jane Osler just to be speaker-2: A hundred percent. Yes, a hundred percent. speaker-1: yeah. Thanks again, Jane, for joining us and thanks to everyone for tuning in and listening to this episode of The Last Analog Marketers. I'm Aaron Peterson. speaker-2: And I'm Jamie Jones. thank you for listening. Really quickly, my one last thing, I know we always try to do this. I told Aaron before we got started that I saw an advertisement in my pediatrician office for our pre K three, and my marketing mind immediately immediately went to who owned this campaign? Did they pay the pediatrician for this spot on their wall? Who's tracking whether this works? If someone registers for pre K three. Do they actually attribute the ad that the person saw in the pediatrician's office? And it was a lot of thought about an 18 by 24 poster in a literal plastic frame. So if you wonder if we think about marketing when we are not on this podcast or at our day jobs, yes, we do. It literally cannot leave our minds. So that's my one. speaker-1: I like to think that most marketers act this way. I I like to think that we're not crazy, Jamie. That it's just just this is a common thing that other marketers do. speaker-0: My style. speaker-2: Might say otherwise, but yes, we're gonna go with that one, Erin. That's why I like you, and that's why we're friends. all right. Well, like, subscribe, share, show your support for our episode. Jane, thank you so much for being such a great colleague and friend and for sharing all of your expertise always with us. As I said, we've held you in high esteem for many, many years, but we really appreciate your support on the podcast. And it was so great to chat with you today. And I hope everybody has a great day. speaker-0: Thank you. Thank speaker-1: Thanks again, everyone. Bye. Bye. speaker-0: you. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to the Last Analog Marketers Podcast. Like, share, and subscribe to keep in tune and show your support.