Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Moving Forward: Healing From Narcissistic Abuse | Part 3 of 3 | E15

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Moving Forward: Healing From Narcissistic Abuse | Part 3 of 3 | E15 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

0:00
Speaker 1: People aren't random. They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
0:05
Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
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Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
0:12
Speaker 1: don't even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern,
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Speaker 1: you can finally change it.
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Speaker 2: I'm Dr.
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Speaker 1: Sarah Hensley.
0:20
Speaker 2: And I'm Raina Butcher.
0:22
Speaker 1: You think your life is random. It's not.
0:25
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Dr. Sarah Hensley Show.
0:30
Speaker 1: Hey, friend.
0:31
Speaker 2: Hey. How's it going?
0:33
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm tired.
0:34
Speaker 2: How are you? We're both dragging today, guys. Hi. We
0:38
Speaker 2: both kind of walked in here.
0:40
Speaker 1: I had a coffee and two Diet Cokes.
0:42
Speaker 2: I'm drinking a ghost right now, and it ain't hitting.
0:45
Speaker 2: It's not hitting, that's for sure.
0:47
Speaker 1: I think mine is I've gotten up at 6 a.m.
0:51
Speaker 1: Donald was on a guy's golf trip, and so I
0:56
Speaker 1: had my stepson and I had to get him up
0:59
Speaker 1: and take him to school, like the earliest he could
1:02
Speaker 1: possibly get there so that I could get my daughter
1:04
Speaker 1: to her school. She goes to private school.
1:07
Speaker 2: And it was just like, he's home now though. You survived.
1:09
Speaker 2: He's home. He's home.
1:10
Speaker 1: You survived.
1:11
Speaker 2: I did.
1:11
Speaker 1: I saw him.
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Speaker 2: Because at the beginning of the week, you were like,
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Speaker 2: oh gosh, Donald's gone. What am I going to do?
1:16
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, I mean, we have four kids.
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Speaker 2: I know.
1:18
Speaker 1: And they are in every activity and the business and
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Speaker 1: coaching in the evenings. And then Miss Hannah, our family helper,
1:26
Speaker 1: was there. sick. And so it was like, it was
1:32
Speaker 1: like just me. I was like, I am teleported back
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Speaker 1: to 2020 when I was this truly single mother, except
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Speaker 1: now there's more kids. And yeah, it was a little chaotic,
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Speaker 1: but I got through it. And just remembering how hard
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Speaker 1: it is to be a single mom. I'm not a
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Speaker 1: single mom. I was a temporary solo parent. But my
1:53
Speaker 1: man is back. He actually came back a day early
1:55
Speaker 1: because Vegas was not his scene. I told him it
1:57
Speaker 1: wouldn't be.
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Speaker 2: I don't know who's scene it could be.
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Speaker 1: I was like, you're not going to like it, babe.
2:02
Speaker 1: And he's like, but the golf is great. And I'm like, yeah,
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Speaker 1: you might like the golf, but the nightlife, baby, I
2:06
Speaker 1: know you.
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Speaker 2: There's a million places that are great for golf, right?
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Speaker 2: Like that aren't sweltering hot in the desert.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, he didn't pick the location, but he got
2:15
Speaker 1: to see some old army buddies and get together with them.
2:18
Speaker 1: And that was great. So we are here.
2:22
Speaker 2: We got some bells and whistles. Yes, we're here, guys.
2:26
Speaker 2: At least we're here for you guys.
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Speaker 1: Yes, that's why we do it. If we didn't care
2:30
Speaker 1: so much about you guys, we wouldn't be here at all.
2:31
Speaker 2: That's right.
2:32
Speaker 1: We'd be sleeping right now.
2:33
Speaker 2: So first and foremost, if you're listening, please download this episode.
2:36
Speaker 1: Please, we beg of you.
2:38
Speaker 2: That really helps us out, and we just appreciate it.
2:40
Speaker 2: If it's not downloaded, it doesn't count.
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Speaker 1: It does not count.
2:43
Speaker 2: So today we're going to talk about in our three-part
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Speaker 2: series on narcissism, how to heal from narcissistic abuse. So
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Speaker 2: this is an important one. It is. And I can't
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Speaker 2: wait to hear because I still feel like I'm healing
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Speaker 2: from my narcissistic abusive relationship.
3:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, it can take a long time. And if you
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Speaker 1: don't have the skills, your nervous system controls the scene
3:08
Speaker 1: as if they were still with you, even though they're gone.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Just.
3:13
Speaker 1: getting them out of your life isn't enough. You have
3:16
Speaker 1: to do work because they destroy your nervous system. They
3:20
Speaker 1: damage your brain. I mean, there's science around that, the
3:24
Speaker 1: shrinking of the hippocampus and the executive dysfunction and so
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Speaker 1: many things.
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Speaker 2: So let's start at the beginning. So say somebody finally
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Speaker 2: gets out of an abusive relationship, where should they begin?
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Speaker 1: Well, it's always understanding, but that is definitely not enough.
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Speaker 1: So you have to understand that you are trauma bonded.
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Speaker 1: You were in a cycle of abuse that was intermittent
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Speaker 1: reinforcement and it hijacks the dopamine reward system in your brain.
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Speaker 1: So essentially the narcissist was like heroin. People that do
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Speaker 1: heroin know heroin is bad for them. They're not clueless
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Speaker 1: about that. They can look and be like, yes, heroin
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Speaker 1: does bad things to my life, to my body. It's bad,
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Speaker 1: but I still want it. And I think what surprises
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Speaker 1: a lot of people in their recovery journey is that
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Speaker 1: a lot of times when you're breaking free from a
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Speaker 1: trauma bond, you feel very empowered at first. You're like,
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Speaker 1: I can do this. I want them out. I'm going
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Speaker 1: to be so much better off. And then comes the
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Speaker 1: withdraw phase, just like a drug, detoxing. And your brain
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Speaker 1: is like, wait, where's my hit of dopamine and serotonin
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Speaker 1: that would come from? the making up or the love
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Speaker 1: bombing or just the times where they would kind of
4:40
Speaker 1: be normal because the lows are so low that even
4:43
Speaker 1: mediocrity feels good in a narcissistically abusive relationship. And you
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Speaker 1: get this withdrawal, which is like this deep longing for them.
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Speaker 1: It's this missingness. And you can know somebody abused you
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Speaker 1: and still really miss them. And it's a mind leap.
5:03
Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: You know?
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Speaker 2: It's a mind fuck.
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Speaker 1: I'll say it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. It is.
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Speaker 1: It's a mind fuck. And you can know those two
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Speaker 1: things at the same time. And it's like, what do
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Speaker 1: you do with that? They are toxic for me. They
5:15
Speaker 1: abused me. And I still want them. And then your
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Speaker 1: brain starts, because again, you can't really hold two competing beliefs.
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Speaker 1: So you have to go one direction or the other.
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Speaker 1: So a lot of times you'll start to go, well,
5:27
Speaker 1: maybe it was me. And maybe I was wrong. And
5:29
Speaker 1: they're not a narcissist. And if I just would have
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Speaker 1: done X, Y, and Z differently, then maybe we would
5:34
Speaker 1: still be together and maybe I was the problem all
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Speaker 1: along and I can do better. And that's what brings
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Speaker 1: you right back in because they eventually will come back
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Speaker 1: and try to hoover you. They've lost their supply. They
5:45
Speaker 1: need you. They can't lose control of you. That's losing
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Speaker 1: and that's unacceptable. So there's going to be a time
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Speaker 1: where they try to suck you back in and people
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Speaker 1: never see it coming. They're like, they'll never contact me again.
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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh yeah, they will. It might be a
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Speaker 1: year from now. But they will. When they get low
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Speaker 1: on supply, they'll creep back up.
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Speaker 2: So what's your advice to people when that happens? And
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Speaker 2: I know it's probably not black and white.
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Speaker 1: No, it is black and white. Do not contact them.
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Speaker 1: If you have kids with them, you are as low
6:18
Speaker 1: contact as humanly possible. And you are using what I
6:21
Speaker 1: call yellow rock communication. I didn't make that term up,
6:25
Speaker 1: but I shouldn't have said I call it that. It's
6:28
Speaker 1: named yellow rock communication. It's like gray rock. A lot
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Speaker 1: of people have heard of gray rock. You're as boring
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Speaker 1: as a gray rock. If you have kids with them,
6:38
Speaker 1: you want to use yellow rock, which is like a
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Speaker 1: little bit nicer, but still incredibly boring. So instead of
6:44
Speaker 1: the kids need to be picked up by five, it's, hi,
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Speaker 1: I hope you are having a good day. The kids
6:49
Speaker 1: need to be picked up by five. Because you have
6:51
Speaker 1: to always assume if you have kids that a family
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Speaker 1: court judge could be looking at your communication. And you
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Speaker 1: don't want to look like the cold, off-putting, problematic parent.
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Speaker 1: But if you do not have kids with them, great,
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Speaker 1: rock the absolute crap out of them. Actually just block
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Speaker 1: them and never speak to them again. That is the
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Speaker 1: best thing you can possibly, possibly do.
7:10
Speaker 2: Until you just get over that hump.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Because a heroin addict can't do just a little
7:14
Speaker 1: bit of heroin. They can't be like, you know what?
7:17
Speaker 1: I'm just going to hang out with my heroin buddies
7:20
Speaker 1: a little bit, maybe do a little bit here and there.
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Speaker 1: It does not work like that. You'll be right back
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Speaker 1: in it. They will suck you back in like a
7:27
Speaker 1: Hoover vacuum cleaner. That's where the name comes from. So
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Speaker 1: a lot of people think that they finally healed, you know,
7:35
Speaker 1: just because they don't want them back anymore. And that's
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Speaker 1: really not true. Your nervous system is primed for dysfunction now.
7:45
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, you know, love is pain. We got
7:49
Speaker 1: to find that again. And you just end up finding
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Speaker 1: a different kind of pain. You find another narcissist or
7:55
Speaker 1: someone extremely insecure. And one of the most common things
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Speaker 1: I see is going straight into the arms of a
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Speaker 1: dismissive avoidant because the narcissist was so chaotic and created
8:05
Speaker 1: so much of a roller coaster, you know, type of relationship.
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Speaker 1: And the dismissive avoidance seems in the beginning so safe
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Speaker 1: and gentle and stable and steady and calm. And you're like, oh,
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Speaker 1: this is what I want. Only for them to come
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Speaker 1: in strong and then painfully neglect you and make you
8:27
Speaker 1: want to go crazy in a totally different way. But
8:31
Speaker 1: it's so common.
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Speaker 2: It is so common.
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Speaker 1: So you have to really first point the finger at
8:37
Speaker 1: yourself and go, Why did I attract them? Why did
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Speaker 1: I stay? Most of the time it is attachment insecurity.
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Speaker 1: It is deep wounding and subconscious beliefs about love being
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Speaker 1: painful or something you have to earn or not being
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Speaker 1: worthy of love. There could be a lot going on
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Speaker 1: in your subconscious that is going to cause you to
9:01
Speaker 1: repeat another painful pattern. It might not be another narcissist,
9:05
Speaker 1: but it might be somebody who's with some other severe
9:08
Speaker 1: forms of dysfunction. And it's just not worth it. It's
9:12
Speaker 1: not worth it to repeat that. And you can't just
9:15
Speaker 1: understand it and think it's going to be different. It's not.
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Speaker 2: Do you think after getting out of a narcissistic abusive relationship,
9:23
Speaker 2: do you think it takes a couple more relationships after
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Speaker 2: that and just recognizing some, like, cause I know for me,
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Speaker 2: it just, it took me a couple of relationships after
9:33
Speaker 2: the fact, but I just recognized things sooner. So then
9:36
Speaker 2: I would bail a lot sooner. Like I wouldn't just
9:38
Speaker 2: stay in it. So do you think that somebody can
9:41
Speaker 2: just get out of an abusive relationship like that and
9:44
Speaker 2: then not saying that they're not healing while they're maybe dating,
9:49
Speaker 2: but should they date at all? No.
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Speaker 1: Oh, gosh, no.
9:53
Speaker 2: No.
9:55
Speaker 1: Hell no.
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Speaker 2: And how do they determine like whether they're really healed?
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Speaker 1: Well I think you know that's not always an easy
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Speaker 1: answer but for me I felt like I had extreme
10:09
Speaker 1: confidence that I could walk away from red flags yeah
10:15
Speaker 1: and I did yeah you know I had some handful
10:18
Speaker 1: of dates with other people. And there was a guy
10:21
Speaker 1: or two where the red flags were off the charts.
10:24
Speaker 1: And I was like, bye.
10:25
Speaker 2: Yeah. And you were like, no.
10:26
Speaker 1: And so I think you have, have to have extreme
10:29
Speaker 1: confidence that enlists the behaviors, you know, still talks to
10:36
Speaker 1: X red flag, not yet divorced red flag. Um, talks
10:42
Speaker 1: bad about their ex, red flag.
10:44
Speaker 2: Not consistent.
10:44
Speaker 1: Not consistent in their communication, red flag. You need to
10:48
Speaker 1: write these down and you need to be like, if
10:51
Speaker 1: these things happen in the dating phase, I will leave.
10:57
Speaker 1: And that goes along with another sort of healing strategy,
11:00
Speaker 1: which is that you have to get to even before that,
11:02
Speaker 1: which is really radical acceptance of what happened to you. Again,
11:07
Speaker 1: people in that withdrawal phase- can totally rewrite history and
11:12
Speaker 1: focus on what was good and blame themselves and convince
11:16
Speaker 1: themselves that if they had another chance, they could do
11:18
Speaker 1: it all differently and it would be all different. And
11:20
Speaker 1: that is your nervous system craving the drug that is
11:23
Speaker 1: not reality. And no contact is imperative. You cannot do
11:28
Speaker 1: just a little bit of heroin, like I said. You
11:30
Speaker 1: have to cut it off and you have to radically
11:32
Speaker 1: accept what has happened to you. And that's why they
11:35
Speaker 1: say to write down everything that happened in the relationship
11:38
Speaker 1: and look at that over and over and over again,
11:40
Speaker 1: because your brain is going to want to go to
11:42
Speaker 1: the good. That is the, you know, aftermath positivity bias.
11:47
Speaker 1: When something is over, we want to try to look
11:50
Speaker 1: on it, you know, more fondly than it was and
11:52
Speaker 1: pull out only the good memories. And there was probably way, way,
11:56
Speaker 1: way more bad than good, but your brain doesn't want
11:59
Speaker 1: to go there. You have to force it there in
12:01
Speaker 1: order to stay away from them.
12:02
Speaker 2: Yeah. So explain to our listeners why, like, even if
12:06
Speaker 2: they don't want them anymore, right, which I think happens
12:08
Speaker 2: a lot. I know that happened to me. Like, once
12:10
Speaker 2: I got out, I was like, I would rather be
12:11
Speaker 2: alone than spend one more moment in this. So I
12:14
Speaker 2: knew I was ready to leave, but I knew I
12:16
Speaker 2: wasn't completely healed. Yeah.
12:18
Speaker 1: Those aren't the same thing.
12:19
Speaker 2: Right. So what do people do in that circumstance to
12:22
Speaker 2: start healing, to start really moving towards full healing? And
12:27
Speaker 2: I say full healing, even though that's not possible, right?
12:29
Speaker 2: It's like a lifetime journey, we all know. Oh, sure.
12:32
Speaker 2: But really trying to get past the, I guess maybe
12:35
Speaker 2: like the CPTSD that happens or the things that happen
12:38
Speaker 2: to the brain afterwards.
12:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we know some predictors of how people can
12:43
Speaker 1: kind of change course from PTSD or CPTSD to post-traumatic growth.
12:49
Speaker 1: We know that optimism and hope is a huge piece
12:51
Speaker 1: of that. We also see that people who truly process
12:56
Speaker 1: their emotions and can integrate their experiences instead of ruminating
13:00
Speaker 1: on their experiences, have a better outcome and can move
13:04
Speaker 1: towards post-traumatic growth. That's why my coaching program is so
13:08
Speaker 1: heavily focused on proper, full, complete and safe emotional processing
13:13
Speaker 1: because it's life-changing. I think that is the only way
13:16
Speaker 1: that your brain can make peace with it and let
13:19
Speaker 1: it go in your nervous system and achieve some nervous
13:22
Speaker 1: system regulation and stability afterwards. I think people definitely have
13:29
Speaker 1: to do the mindset work. I know we've talked about
13:30
Speaker 1: that a million times. People have to know what a
13:33
Speaker 1: healthy relationship looks like. Their blueprints of what they've had
13:40
Speaker 1: can be so far removed from what's healthy. And I
13:44
Speaker 1: know this to be a fact because I coach people
13:46
Speaker 1: all day long and I hear about their relationships and
13:51
Speaker 1: they aren't in a place where they can recognize how
13:53
Speaker 1: dysfunctional it is or was.
13:55
Speaker 2: Right.
13:57
Speaker 1: And they'll be like, was this abusive? And I want
13:59
Speaker 1: to be like, yes. That's like really abusive. Not just
14:04
Speaker 1: a little bit, like insane. That's insane. And so we
14:10
Speaker 1: tend to minimize the abuse, right? Because again, holding conflicting beliefs.
14:14
Speaker 1: How can I be a smart, capable person and have
14:17
Speaker 1: been in that situation to allow myself to be treated
14:20
Speaker 1: that way? Those are two really hard conflicting beliefs to
14:23
Speaker 1: hold within yourself. And you have to go one direction
14:26
Speaker 1: or the other. And it can be true that you
14:29
Speaker 1: can be smart and empathetic and high achieving and still
14:32
Speaker 1: end up in a narcissistic relationship because narcissists are master
14:35
Speaker 1: manipulators and they prey on people who have high empathy
14:39
Speaker 1: and they go after people who make them look good.
14:43
Speaker 1: So if you weren't a prize, they would not have
14:46
Speaker 1: wanted you. They wouldn't have wanted you. You are a
14:51
Speaker 1: reflection of them to them. They're like, no, you are
14:54
Speaker 1: a reflection of me. So you have to be of
14:56
Speaker 1: a certain status, intelligence, worth, et cetera.
14:59
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've always noticed like narcissistic people don't usually go
15:03
Speaker 2: after like submissive types of people. They actually go after
15:07
Speaker 2: like strong people because they, they like to, Oh, it's
15:10
Speaker 2: the challenge. Yeah. They like to beat them down.
15:12
Speaker 1: I can control you and beat you down. Then I
15:15
Speaker 1: truly am as important and strong and special as I
15:19
Speaker 1: really believe that I am because anybody can drag a
15:23
Speaker 1: doormat along.
15:24
Speaker 2: Right.
15:24
Speaker 1: But when they, they get, you know, they get pleasure
15:28
Speaker 1: out of controlling you.
15:29
Speaker 2: Yeah.
15:30
Speaker 1: It, it makes them feel powerful and that's what they're
15:32
Speaker 1: after is power and control. And because that is a
15:36
Speaker 1: reflection of being special, right? If I have power over someone,
15:39
Speaker 1: I am special.
15:39
Speaker 2: Yeah. If I took this strong person, I was able
15:42
Speaker 2: to beat them to nothing. Yeah.
15:43
Speaker 1: And yeah, they don't go after the doormats. They're not
15:49
Speaker 1: attracted to that. They're attracted to the ability to beat
15:52
Speaker 1: you down. And the more of a challenge that is,
15:54
Speaker 1: the more they savor it. This podcast is brought to
15:58
Speaker 1: you by the Dr. Sarah Hensley Relationship Coaching Services. If
16:03
Speaker 1: you're looking to achieve your attachment security and make dramatic
16:06
Speaker 1: transformations in your romantic relationship, I would love to help you.
16:11
Speaker 1: In my practice, we have a self-paced option where you
16:14
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16:18
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16:22
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16:25
Speaker 1: from an objective lens, as well as learn the secure
16:28
Speaker 1: behavior it takes to create a lasting and loving relationship.
16:32
Speaker 1: You can also add on my hybrid group, which is
16:35
Speaker 1: a set of four small group calls where you can
16:37
Speaker 1: be anonymous in the group and you can ask questions
16:40
Speaker 1: about what you're learning in the self-paced part of the program.
16:43
Speaker 1: You literally get to pick my brain. And this is
16:46
Speaker 1: a great program for more avoidant attachment styles who really
16:49
Speaker 1: tend to get triggered in therapeutic settings. They can be
16:52
Speaker 1: a fly on the wall, stay regulated, learn, and actually transform.
16:58
Speaker 1: So please send us a message or you can always
17:01
Speaker 1: text our business line at 502-427-6945. And myself or one
17:07
Speaker 1: of my assistant coaches will help find the program that's
17:10
Speaker 1: right for you. Or you can visit my website at drsarahhensley.com.
17:14
Speaker 1: That's D-O-C-T-O-R sarahhensley.com.
17:19
Speaker 2: So I want to know, can you give an example
17:21
Speaker 2: of like the difference between like, well, we know what
17:24
Speaker 2: ruminating is. Mm-hmm. But like when somebody starts to fully
17:28
Speaker 2: integrate like the processing of the emotions into the nervous system,
17:32
Speaker 2: like what does that look like or feel like?
17:36
Speaker 1: Well, in your mind, it's going to look like the
17:38
Speaker 1: thoughts come up and then you have a rational answer
17:41
Speaker 1: to those thoughts and then they settle back down and
17:43
Speaker 1: it doesn't just come right back up. You're not having
17:46
Speaker 1: fake conversations in your head with them anymore because your
17:51
Speaker 1: brain has realized they are gone. That doesn't matter.
17:54
Speaker 2: It is over.
17:56
Speaker 1: We don't need to rehearse anything to stay safe. So
17:59
Speaker 1: your mind is going to be a lot more quiet.
18:01
Speaker 1: It's not going to be, I mean, maybe you can
18:02
Speaker 1: reflect back, but you're not fighting yourself within yourself anymore
18:09
Speaker 1: over them and what they did.
18:11
Speaker 2: So the narratives start to change within the mind.
18:13
Speaker 1: The bitterness releases, the resentment releases. I think your view
18:17
Speaker 1: of yourself as a victim releases. You're not self-piteous anymore. Like, oh,
18:23
Speaker 1: what they did to me and I mean, the number
18:26
Speaker 1: one sort of red flag of someone who is unhealed
18:30
Speaker 1: is that they hate the narcissist. They hate the narcissist
18:34
Speaker 1: and they hate anybody associated with the narcissist. And hate
18:37
Speaker 1: is just a very ugly form of insecurity. It's toxic.
18:42
Speaker 1: It just, I mean, hate is, when you break it
18:45
Speaker 1: down into its primary constructs, it's like rumination and bitterness
18:53
Speaker 1: and And victimization, really, at the end of the day.
18:58
Speaker 2: Well, because it is the exact opposite of love, I
19:02
Speaker 2: feel like.
19:02
Speaker 1: I think the opposite of love is indifference. To some degree, yeah.
19:06
Speaker 2: But I don't feel like you can hate somebody unless
19:09
Speaker 2: you still love them. Exactly. You know, so— Exactly. Indifference
19:12
Speaker 2: is just like this.
19:13
Speaker 1: I don't care. Indifference is like, I just don't even
19:15
Speaker 1: care anymore. Like, when my narcissistic ex would text me
19:19
Speaker 1: things and I did not care anymore, I'd just be like, okay, whatever.
19:22
Speaker 2: Yeah.
19:23
Speaker 1: Cool, dude. Yellow thumbs up.
19:25
Speaker 2: Yellow thumbs up. Yeah.
19:26
Speaker 1: I mean, it was almost laughable, right? So it didn't
19:28
Speaker 1: give me this nervous system shock. If you are around
19:32
Speaker 1: them and your stomach still sinks or they text you
19:34
Speaker 1: and your stomach still drops, you're not healed. Their crazy
19:38
Speaker 1: clown circus that they create will not matter that much
19:42
Speaker 1: to you unless they are punishing you in a way
19:47
Speaker 1: you can't get out of, like they're dragging you through
19:49
Speaker 1: family court. I mean, that in and of itself, the
19:51
Speaker 1: family court system is traumatizing and they are just using
19:54
Speaker 1: it to traumatize you.
19:55
Speaker 2: So that's a unique situation.
19:56
Speaker 1: And if you're experiencing continued harassment, stalking, et cetera, to
20:01
Speaker 1: a really serious degree, then of course, you're not going
20:05
Speaker 1: to be indifferent to those types of continued abuse. But
20:08
Speaker 1: when they text you something ugly, it's like, whatever, dude.
20:11
Speaker 2: Like same story.
20:13
Speaker 1: Yeah.
20:14
Speaker 2: Can't wait to read this amongst my friends and laugh. Yeah.
20:17
Speaker 1: Or just whatever. Like just ignore it. It doesn't even,
20:21
Speaker 1: it's just another Tuesday. Just another Tuesday of your bullshit.
20:25
Speaker 2: Yeah. Before those people that maybe are stuck in a
20:28
Speaker 2: situation where they have children and the narcissist is using
20:31
Speaker 2: the children to control or Hoover or. Yeah.
20:35
Speaker 1: Now that is insanely painful.
20:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:37
Speaker 1: Because you can see your children suffering. You can see
20:40
Speaker 1: that they know something is not right with the other parent.
20:43
Speaker 1: And so you have to be their secure anchor. Never
20:47
Speaker 1: talk bad about the parent. You can teach them, I can,
20:51
Speaker 1: you know, boundaries. You know, here's how you say that
20:53
Speaker 1: doesn't feel good to me. Or I prefer that you
20:55
Speaker 1: don't talk about mommy that way or daddy that way.
20:58
Speaker 1: You can give them their own boundaries to practice.
21:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.
21:02
Speaker 1: But You don't have to explain narcissism. You don't have
21:07
Speaker 1: to tell them that the parent is mentally ill. You
21:10
Speaker 1: don't have to say any of that.
21:12
Speaker 2: Yeah.
21:12
Speaker 1: You just validate their feelings and help them feel as
21:14
Speaker 1: safe as possible and teach them what boundaries look like.
21:17
Speaker 2: Because they'll get older and they'll.
21:18
Speaker 1: They will see it.
21:19
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
21:20
Speaker 1: Round nine, 10. Mm-hmm.
21:22
Speaker 2: Yep.
21:22
Speaker 1: They're going to start seeing it and they're going to go, uh.
21:25
Speaker 2: This doesn't feel good to me.
21:26
Speaker 1: I don't, like, and then around 12, 13, they're going
21:29
Speaker 1: to see it very, very, very clearly.
21:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
21:31
Speaker 1: And in adulthood, they're going to be like, holy shit.
21:33
Speaker 2: This is clear as water.
21:35
Speaker 1: I don't really like that parent. And so you might think, oh,
21:39
Speaker 1: they have my child fooled and they're the Disneyland parent
21:42
Speaker 1: and my child thinks they're the best, but they don't
21:44
Speaker 1: really do any of the hard work because they're not
21:47
Speaker 1: going to. And it's just all for show. They just
21:50
Speaker 1: show them off on social media, but I'm the one
21:53
Speaker 1: keeping everything together. Of course you are. Of course you are.
21:56
Speaker 1: I see you. It's rough, but it will pay off.
22:00
Speaker 2: It will.
22:01
Speaker 1: Keep chugging. Reina knows that. Your child is an adult now.
22:05
Speaker 1: It pays off to keep chugging, keep doing the hard things.
22:10
Speaker 2: And I didn't do everything right by any means. But
22:13
Speaker 2: I really did try to stick to that one role
22:17
Speaker 2: where it was like, no matter what the narrative was
22:20
Speaker 2: at the other parent's house, I was going to try
22:23
Speaker 2: to not speak poorly.
22:26
Speaker 1: Right, because the child still loves both parents and has
22:28
Speaker 1: a right to love both parents. Yes.
22:30
Speaker 2: And I still want to facilitate that, even today. I
22:33
Speaker 2: still try to facilitate that.
22:35
Speaker 1: But the child will eventually kind of reject that parent.
22:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
22:39
Speaker 1: And they'll be like, oh, well, when I'm at dad's house,
22:43
Speaker 1: dad doesn't talk bad about mom. But when I'm at
22:45
Speaker 1: mom's house and mom really talks bad about dad, I
22:48
Speaker 1: don't like that. That doesn't make me feel good. They
22:51
Speaker 1: will start to really feel that. Or vice versa, right?
22:56
Speaker 2: In one way or another, they'll rebellion sit, whether it's
22:58
Speaker 2: just completely cutting the parent off.
23:00
Speaker 1: I see it all the time.
23:01
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm living it. I know you're living it.
23:03
Speaker 2: I'm living it right now. I know. And listen, it
23:06
Speaker 2: doesn't bring me any joy at all. No way. Because
23:10
Speaker 2: if I could have things my way, I would want
23:13
Speaker 2: my son to have a beautiful, healthy relationship with his father.
23:19
Speaker 2: I mean, that's all I would ever want. Why wouldn't I? Yeah.
23:22
Speaker 2: Because it only helps him. But it's not his fault
23:24
Speaker 2: that he doesn't.
23:26
Speaker 1: No, it's not his fault. It's never the child's responsibility
23:30
Speaker 1: to create the relationship with the parent. It's the parent's
23:32
Speaker 1: responsibility to create the healthy relationship with the child. I
23:36
Speaker 1: do not care how old the child is. I don't
23:40
Speaker 1: care if we're talking about adult children. If you're the parent,
23:42
Speaker 1: it's your job. Yeah.
23:44
Speaker 2: And it's not the other parent's job either. Nope.
23:47
Speaker 1: It sure isn't.
23:47
Speaker 2: That one parent's job.
23:49
Speaker 1: That's right.
23:49
Speaker 2: To create that relationship and to facilitate that relationship.
23:52
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So I really want to talk about reality
23:55
Speaker 1: distortion because I think this is a huge part of healing.
24:00
Speaker 1: You know, a narcissist, yes, they will destroy your self-esteem
24:04
Speaker 1: over time. But, you know, when you can't trust your
24:07
Speaker 1: own perception of reality, it's brutal. You question everything. You
24:14
Speaker 1: are more hypervigilant than you will ever be in your life.
24:18
Speaker 1: You don't know up from down and down from up
24:21
Speaker 1: when it's over with. And you have to learn to
24:23
Speaker 1: stand on your own two feet and see clearly again.
24:27
Speaker 1: And self-trust, the only way to gain it back is
24:30
Speaker 1: to fully learn how to process your emotions because that
24:33
Speaker 1: psychological integration piece of emotional processing is where your brain
24:38
Speaker 1: makes sense of things and really does like a zoom
24:40
Speaker 1: out trust analysis of like, is this legitimate? Like, are
24:45
Speaker 1: we being objective about this? Like, what kind of threat
24:47
Speaker 1: is this? And that's why I think it's so sad
24:50
Speaker 1: that people never really learn emotional processing and they just think, well,
24:53
Speaker 1: now that I'm out of the relationship, a new partner
24:56
Speaker 1: is all I need. Nope. Every relationship is going to
24:59
Speaker 1: teach you something deeply, you know, profound about yourself.
25:03
Speaker 2: Yeah.
25:04
Speaker 1: And you have to be willing to go there and
25:06
Speaker 1: try to learn those lessons.
25:08
Speaker 2: Do you think dating helps in the self-trust process though?
25:11
Speaker 2: Like if you're able to recognize those red flags sooner
25:13
Speaker 2: and sooner. Because again, like we were discussing, that's what
25:17
Speaker 2: happened to me.
25:18
Speaker 1: After you stay single and do some significant healing work,
25:21
Speaker 1: dating is always going to reveal little places and parts
25:25
Speaker 1: that you're not fully healed yet. But it's how well
25:27
Speaker 1: can you navigate, recover from those, and do you have
25:31
Speaker 1: the ability to detach from someone who is unhealthy? Because again,
25:37
Speaker 1: when you date too soon after... a breakup, especially with
25:41
Speaker 1: a narcissist or a divorce, one of two things is
25:44
Speaker 1: going to happen. Either you're going to break someone's heart
25:47
Speaker 1: because you're going to date and you're going to compare
25:48
Speaker 1: everybody to your ex. You're going to miss your ex.
25:51
Speaker 1: You're going to be like, well, they're not them. And
25:53
Speaker 1: my ex used to do this and they don't do that.
25:55
Speaker 1: Or my ex was more attractive or whatever. And so
25:57
Speaker 1: you're going to break someone's heart that didn't deserve to
26:00
Speaker 1: have their heart broken. That's actually what Taylor Swift's Pink
26:04
Speaker 1: Clouding song is about. It You haven't heard that song.
26:06
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful song. And, um, it's an apology song to,
26:10
Speaker 1: I think it's Tom Hiddleston is his name or whatever,
26:13
Speaker 1: where she was dating Calvin Harris. And then he was
26:16
Speaker 1: apparently like, like kind of narc-ish maybe allegedly. Okay. And, um,
26:23
Speaker 1: and then she started dating this guy and he was
26:27
Speaker 1: so good to her, so good to her. And she
26:30
Speaker 1: just got swept up. And then she realized she just
26:32
Speaker 1: was not over the past relationship. And just kind of
26:35
Speaker 1: left him on the pink cloud and broke his heart.
26:38
Speaker 1: And so you will hurt someone that does not deserve
26:40
Speaker 1: to be hurt, or you will attach to someone who
26:44
Speaker 1: you totally miss their red flags. And then you're in
26:49
Speaker 1: just another painful relationship and you never process the pain
26:52
Speaker 1: of the narcissistic relationship. So then you have pain on
26:55
Speaker 1: top of pain and you're a mess. You're a mess.
26:59
Speaker 2: So what is the victim from the narcissistic abusive relationship
27:05
Speaker 2: usually end up in a relationship with a dismissive avoidant.
27:08
Speaker 2: Why does that happen?
27:09
Speaker 1: Again, because the DA seems so calm and stable and
27:12
Speaker 1: together and the narcissist was so cruel and mean and
27:15
Speaker 1: chaotic and dismissive avoidance at first seemed like the most
27:19
Speaker 1: cuddly teddy bear safe. Yeah.
27:22
Speaker 2: They're on, they're on fire.
27:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. And in the beginning, that's when they show up.
27:28
Speaker 1: So they're showing up good. And then they're also kind
27:30
Speaker 1: and calm and easygoing and they don't get you know,
27:36
Speaker 1: triggered by tiny little things you do where you were
27:38
Speaker 1: walking on the thinnest of eggshells around the narcissist, you
27:42
Speaker 1: can just plop right onto the teddy bear dismissive avoidant
27:45
Speaker 1: until they start painfully slowly fading away and you're grasping
27:49
Speaker 1: at their teddy bear feet to try to get them
27:53
Speaker 1: back in the door. And you don't see it coming.
27:57
Speaker 1: But if you were healed, you kind of would. You
28:00
Speaker 1: would pick up on their little quirks and their idiosyncrasies
28:03
Speaker 1: of where you're like, well, what?
28:05
Speaker 2: Hold on a second. And then you'd be like, I
28:07
Speaker 2: got to go. Yes.
28:09
Speaker 1: And we deep dive the dismissive avoidant in several seasons
28:12
Speaker 1: of this podcast. I think it was the very first
28:15
Speaker 1: episode of season three. So if you haven't listened to
28:16
Speaker 1: that episode and you're healing from narcissistic abuse, go back
28:20
Speaker 1: and listen because you do not want to end up
28:22
Speaker 1: in the arms of a dismissive avoidant that is more
28:25
Speaker 1: common than you would ever believe.
28:28
Speaker 2: So what advice do you have for the people who
28:30
Speaker 2: maybe have gotten out, have children, are going through a
28:35
Speaker 2: really terrible divorce and where do they go from here?
28:42
Speaker 1: Low contact is humanly possible. The yellow rock communication pouring
28:45
Speaker 1: into your attachment security to change your nervous system because
28:50
Speaker 1: your nervous system was hijacked. Expect the withdrawal period. Don't
28:54
Speaker 1: give into it. Don't believe that if you would have
28:57
Speaker 1: done things different, it would have been better. That's toxic hope.
29:00
Speaker 1: And no contact or as low of contact as possible
29:02
Speaker 1: is the only way your brain chemistry is going to renormalize.
29:04
Speaker 2: There's parental apps out there where you can communicate with
29:07
Speaker 2: your ex.
29:08
Speaker 1: Oh, that's such a good point. Communicate only over apps.
29:11
Speaker 1: You do not communicate in person. You do not take
29:13
Speaker 1: phone calls and you do not exchange text messages. An
29:18
Speaker 1: app that can be monitored by the court is the
29:22
Speaker 1: only place you communicate. I even might have drop-off locations
29:26
Speaker 1: at a police department or your parents' house. I had
29:30
Speaker 1: to exchange my children at my parents' house. That was
29:33
Speaker 1: in our second. Basically, I had to do my divorce twice.
29:38
Speaker 1: That's another thing. If you're in the divorce process, put
29:40
Speaker 1: protections in place. This is not legal advice. This is
29:44
Speaker 1: my personal opinion. I would never do first rights with
29:48
Speaker 1: a narcissist. So first rights is if you can't watch
29:51
Speaker 1: your child, they get first rights. You have to call
29:54
Speaker 1: them up and say, hey, can you watch my child?
29:56
Speaker 1: Because they will hold it against you. They'll be like,
29:58
Speaker 1: you don't even want your own kid. You just dump
29:59
Speaker 1: your own kid with me, right? It's not that you
30:01
Speaker 1: had a work meeting that you didn't anticipate, right? And
30:04
Speaker 1: you need childcare. And so you're being nice by asking
30:08
Speaker 1: them if they're available. No, they will hold it against you.
30:11
Speaker 1: They will hold it against you.
30:12
Speaker 2: Because that's one of the biggest mistakes I've made.
30:13
Speaker 1: You get a babysitter and you don't even let them
30:15
Speaker 1: freaking know. They need zero, zero information about your personal life.
30:21
Speaker 1: You should have them blocked on all social media. Honestly,
30:23
Speaker 1: you should have their phone number blocked. The parent app
30:26
Speaker 1: is the only place you communicate. Do not try to
30:29
Speaker 1: be their friend. Do not.
30:32
Speaker 2: It won't work.
30:33
Speaker 1: Don't care about any future relationships that they have. No,
30:36
Speaker 1: they will not be different in a future relationship. They
30:38
Speaker 1: will be the same old person. I will never forget. um, my,
30:41
Speaker 1: one of my really good friends at the time. And,
30:43
Speaker 1: and I'm really sad that we've lost touch. You know,
30:45
Speaker 1: she has a child with some developmental disabilities and we
30:49
Speaker 1: just kind of faded away after, um, Jared passed away.
30:53
Speaker 1: But when he got remarried and I remember just, I
30:59
Speaker 1: was over it, but also it was kind of like
31:01
Speaker 1: this because it happened so fast. He got remarried so quick. And, um,
31:06
Speaker 1: I was like, man, you know, that was, that was
31:08
Speaker 1: awful quick. Like she's going to be my children's stepmother
31:11
Speaker 1: and that's a big thing for me like that feels
31:14
Speaker 1: heavy um i don't even really know her right and
31:18
Speaker 1: um she was like listen sarah that woman is going
31:21
Speaker 1: to be crying in her living room one day going
31:24
Speaker 1: through the same thing he went through and my daughter
31:28
Speaker 1: holy crap the types of things she told me were
31:32
Speaker 1: happening in that relationship same shit yeah different face yeah
31:38
Speaker 1: But on the outside, oh, you would have thought it was.
31:40
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. All perfect.
31:43
Speaker 1: All perfection. No, it was not all perfection. It was,
31:47
Speaker 1: according to my daughter, allegedly.
31:50
Speaker 2: Yeah. They can only put on a happy face for
31:52
Speaker 2: so long, though. Eventually, the truth always comes out one
31:56
Speaker 2: way or another. It always comes out.
31:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the mask especially comes off during marriage. Once
32:01
Speaker 1: they know they really got you, they don't give a
32:03
Speaker 1: shit to pretend anymore. Because they're like, what are you
32:07
Speaker 1: going to do? Divorce me? Well, that's hard.
32:10
Speaker 2: Yeah.
32:10
Speaker 1: So good luck. And if you do, I'll take everything
32:12
Speaker 1: you got. And that's another thing they do. You know,
32:15
Speaker 1: they threaten to take your kids. They threaten that they're
32:17
Speaker 1: going to put you in jail. They threaten maybe even
32:19
Speaker 1: that they're going to kill you. They threaten that, you know,
32:22
Speaker 1: all the things. Document, document, document. Document, document, document, document.
32:26
Speaker 2: Everything.
32:26
Speaker 1: Everything.
32:27
Speaker 2: Do not take that for granted. I mean, do not
32:29
Speaker 2: take that for granted.
32:30
Speaker 1: Because if you do go to court, they're going to
32:31
Speaker 1: be like, well, where's your evidence? Yeah. you need to
32:34
Speaker 1: be on your P's and Q's, don't delete anything, screenshot everything,
32:37
Speaker 1: save everything, keep a journal.
32:39
Speaker 2: And the hardest thing about that, I think, is that
32:42
Speaker 2: if you're not a calculated person, I would have never
32:45
Speaker 2: viewed myself as the super calculated person. So it was
32:48
Speaker 2: very difficult for me to think like that.
32:51
Speaker 1: And then they will use it against you. I got
32:52
Speaker 1: an Apple Watch and started recording anytime I had to
32:56
Speaker 1: be around him at any kind of child function or
33:01
Speaker 1: whatever before we got the second sort of divorce decree
33:05
Speaker 1: addendum or whatever you want to call it, where we
33:10
Speaker 1: were exchanging at my parents' house on exchanges because of
33:15
Speaker 1: the abuse and harassment. I would wear my Apple Watch.
33:17
Speaker 1: I still have all those recordings. I should probably get
33:19
Speaker 1: rid of them, but they're there. Yeah, highly recommend the
33:24
Speaker 1: Apple Watch recording app. But know the recording laws in
33:29
Speaker 1: your state. We're a one-party state in Kentucky, which means
33:32
Speaker 1: that only one person has to know that you're recording.
33:36
Speaker 1: Some states are two parties, and then you're breaking the law.
33:39
Speaker 1: So don't break the law.
33:40
Speaker 2: Don't break the law. And these are just our opinions.
33:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, these are just our opinions. This is not legal advice.
33:46
Speaker 1: These are just things that we had to do.
33:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not going to be easy. It's going
33:50
Speaker 2: to be really hard. And I think the hardest thing
33:52
Speaker 2: for me personally was knowing that he had this narrative
33:55
Speaker 2: about me that he would tell other people that I
33:58
Speaker 2: could never control, right? And that was a big part
34:00
Speaker 2: of acceptance was saying, you know, I know what a
34:04
Speaker 2: good mother I am and was during that time. And
34:09
Speaker 2: that part is really hard because that was always the
34:11
Speaker 2: biggest jab was to my motherhood.
34:14
Speaker 1: Also, if your ex has a history of harassment, stalking,
34:19
Speaker 1: property destruction, violence, get a car dash cam. get a
34:24
Speaker 1: security system, trust me on the dash cam, trust me
34:28
Speaker 1: on the dash cam. One keyed car later, you know,
34:34
Speaker 1: I mean, and then you can see if they're, you know,
34:38
Speaker 1: pulling up and parking by your car and waiting for you.
34:40
Speaker 1: I mean, the technology out there is really great right
34:43
Speaker 1: now and it's cheap. I mean, little Amazon dash cams
34:46
Speaker 1: aren't that expensive. Just protect yourself. And it sucks that
34:51
Speaker 1: you have to live that way. I get it. But
34:53
Speaker 1: you've got to keep yourself safe because leaving is when
34:57
Speaker 1: very malignant narcissists usually get the most dangerous when they're
35:00
Speaker 1: losing control. So you have to protect yourself. You have
35:02
Speaker 1: to be careful. But you are not stuck. Let me
35:05
Speaker 1: tell you this right now. You are not stuck. If
35:09
Speaker 1: you have not left yet, you can leave. The child
35:12
Speaker 1: custody will be worked out. The finances will be worked out.
35:16
Speaker 1: I don't care if you have to live in the
35:17
Speaker 1: tiniest apartment in the world, that will be your safe space.
35:20
Speaker 1: That will be a place where you can heal, where
35:23
Speaker 1: your nervous system isn't being hijacked constantly, where you are
35:26
Speaker 1: not living in just threat mode constantly. And it will
35:31
Speaker 1: be a beautiful place.
35:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, it will. And it'll be hard.
35:34
Speaker 1: I mean, it's- It'll be hard, but it will be
35:36
Speaker 1: so worth it on the other side.
35:38
Speaker 2: You can get to the other side of this. In
35:40
Speaker 2: terms of timeline, and I know everybody's probably different, um, But,
35:45
Speaker 2: you know, when can the person really start to feel
35:49
Speaker 2: more freedom, like freedom from those things, like, that the
35:53
Speaker 2: mind does to you afterwards?
35:56
Speaker 1: Well, if you do the work, I would say about
35:57
Speaker 1: a year. If you don't do the work years, years
36:01
Speaker 1: and years, and then time will trick you into thinking
36:03
Speaker 1: that it's fine, but you'll still have that bitterness come up.
36:06
Speaker 1: I mean, if bitterness still comes up, like, you're not okay. Like,
36:12
Speaker 1: your ex still does all kinds of crazy shit.
36:14
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
36:15
Speaker 1: And you're just like, man, I hate that, but I
36:18
Speaker 1: don't know what it is. Your kid's an adult now,
36:21
Speaker 1: and he's allowed to make his own decisions. When you
36:23
Speaker 1: hear about it, you're just like, well, okay. It's not like, oh,
36:27
Speaker 1: but he did that to me one time. It's irrelevant.
36:32
Speaker 2: It is. I can attest to that. I know this
36:35
Speaker 2: is a really, really hard topic for some of you
36:37
Speaker 2: guys to listen to. It's hard for me. And, you know,
36:40
Speaker 2: we just hope that this series has been helpful. We
36:43
Speaker 2: know that these are very difficult subjects to talk about
36:47
Speaker 2: and listen to. And we feel that. We feel that
36:50
Speaker 2: deep when we're sitting here together talking about it.
36:53
Speaker 1: Yeah.
36:54
Speaker 2: So thank you for listening, for tuning in. Please download. Yeah,
36:58
Speaker 2: please download.
36:58
Speaker 1: And we love you. And I just want to thank
37:00
Speaker 1: our audience for giving me a place to speak. You know,
37:05
Speaker 1: Without you guys listening, there would be no Dr. Sarah
37:08
Speaker 1: Hensley Show. There would be no social media. There would
37:11
Speaker 1: be no helping people heal their relationships. And that is
37:15
Speaker 1: the mission that gets me going and keeps me going
37:19
Speaker 1: when times get really tough. And so I just want
37:22
Speaker 1: to thank you. You're all beautiful people. And the comments
37:24
Speaker 1: and feedback that we receive are beautiful. And we appreciate
37:27
Speaker 1: it so much, especially when times are tough.
37:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, it warms my heart. So thank you guys. Continue
37:32
Speaker 2: to tune in, like, download, subscribe. Leave us a comment.
37:35
Speaker 2: And until next time, peace, love, and perspective.