Latest / Hurdle with Emily Abbate / 176. Gretchen Rubin, Best-Selling Author

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176. Gretchen Rubin, Best-Selling Author · Hurdle with Emily Abbate

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: If I had to pick one thing for being happier,
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: I would say anything. If you're trying to figure out
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: what to do with your time, energy, or money, anything
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  Speaker 1: that goes to relationships is something that's likely to make
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: you happier, and it'll make you feel more supportive, and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: it will also make you feel like you're better able
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  Speaker 1: to support others, and that is also a tremendous source
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  Speaker 1: of happiness. One of the best ways to make yourself
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: happier is to make other people happier, and one of
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: the best ways to make other people happier is to
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  Speaker 1: be happier yourself.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Emily body here.
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  Speaker 3: You are listening to episode one seventy six of Hurdle,
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: a wellness focus podcast where I connect with everyone from
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: your favorite athletes to top experts in industry CEOs about
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: their highest hies, toughest moments, and everything in between. We
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: all go through hurdles in life, and my goal through
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: these discussions is to empower you to better navigate yours
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  Speaker 3: and move with intention so that you can stride towards
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: your own big potential and of course have some fun
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: along the way. Today I am so excited to bring
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  Speaker 3: you my conversation with Gretchen Ruben. She is the New
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: York Times best selling author. She's well known for her
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: book The Happiness Project. She's also the podcaster behind the
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: podcast Happier with Gretchen Ruben, and in today's episode, we
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: talked about how she came to be this expert, how
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  Speaker 3: she came to be the person that people think about
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  Speaker 3: going to when they want to get happier in their
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  Speaker 3: own lives.
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  Speaker 2: So much goodness in here.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: She gives us her backstory about how she was once
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  Speaker 3: clerking for Sandra Day O'Connor living in Washington, d C.
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  Speaker 2: When she realized that she wanted to write a book.
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  Speaker 3: And you know, it's so interesting her approach to going
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: to write her first book and when she literally bought
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  Speaker 3: a book about how to write a book and follow
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  Speaker 3: the steps and before you know it, well, I think
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: you can assume what happened next. Gretchen and I talk
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  Speaker 3: about everything from how to make a career pivot in
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: your own life, how people can take steps to being
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  Speaker 3: happier in this quote unquote new normal that we're in
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: the power of asking tough questions.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: We also talk about how.
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  Speaker 3: She gave up sugar a little bit of a side
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  Speaker 3: note here and how that helped her, and of course
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: not so surprising how you can get happier in your
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  Speaker 3: day to day. I mean, if you are looking for
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  Speaker 3: an episode with endless takeaways, this really it's the one
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  Speaker 3: so so grateful for Gretchen and all of her insight,
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  Speaker 3: all of her goodness that she's sharing with you. And
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: also Gretchen wanted to gift you all a little bit
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: of a discount. She has a new line of journals
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: that you can check out. We talk about them in
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: the episode, and she is offering the Hurdlers a promo
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  Speaker 3: code for ten percent and off, So simpenly head on
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: over to the dash Happiness dashproject dot com or visit
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: Gretchenreuben dot com and click the Happiness Project tab to
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: snag yourself one today use the code Hurdle at check
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: out to get ten percent off. So many good picks here.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: I highly recommend you head on over and check them out.
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  Speaker 2: Now before we.
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  Speaker 3: Get into it today, I do want to give some
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: love to one of the newest sponsors on the show,
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: and that is Revtown. Now, you may have seen me
• 3:32
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• 3:37
  Speaker 3: to make your favorite pair of genes, and I can
• 3:41
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• 4:02
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• 4:15
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• 4:22
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• 4:26
  Speaker 3: But sometimes I go to put on a pair of jeans.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm like, is this trendy or.
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  Speaker 3: Do I look like I got into a fight with
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: a weed whacker. My dad would tell you that he
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: thinks that ripped jeans are basically the latter. Anyway, huge
• 4:41
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• 4:45
  Speaker 3: all about them, and I give them some love.
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• 4:50
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  Speaker 3: The high Rise Skinny are my go to check them out.
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  Speaker 2: You won't regret it.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: Make sure you're following along with Hurdle on social. It's
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: over at Hurdle podcast. I am over at Emily a Body.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: If you missed it, I announced the winners of last
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: week's Season seven premier giveaway over on the Weekly Hurdle newsletter.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: A link to subscribe is in the show notes, so
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: make sure you click on over there to claim your
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  Speaker 3: prize if you haven't done so yet, and of course
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: still timed to join the Hurdle membership for things kickoff
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: on October first, Head on over to hurdle dot us
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  Speaker 3: slash membership for information about all of that. And last,
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: a little bit of housekeeping here, make sure you are
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: in on Hurdle's new subscription SMS service. To get in
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: on that, text the word welcome to seven three to
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  Speaker 3: Hurdler again, that is seven three to Hurdler. Text the
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  Speaker 3: word welcome to subscribe to keep up to date with
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: all the latest exciting news from Hurdle going forward. I
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: think that's it for now with that. Let's get to hurdling.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Today.
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  Speaker 3: I'm sitting down with Gretchen Ruben. I feel like she
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  Speaker 3: needs no introduction, but you may all know of her
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  Speaker 3: from her slew of blockbuster titles New York Times bestsellers.
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  Speaker 3: I'm talking better than before the Happiness Project The Four Tendencies,
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  Speaker 3: also podcaster behind Happier Gretchen Ruben, how are we?
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  Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be talking to you.
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  Speaker 3: I hope this brings you happiness. I hope we're both
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  Speaker 3: working on our happiness together.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely now, I'm really looking forward to the conversation. I
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  Speaker 1: know we're interested in so many of the same things.
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  Speaker 3: We are we are, and I also know that we
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: have a mutual interest in I'm just going to throw
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: this out here, the word juj.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: This I for the very first time it came out
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: of my mouth, and I was like, wait, what you know,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: what just happened? I didn't even know how to spell it.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: I'm like, how did I use it? If? This is
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: how culture happens, right, Like how you you pick these
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: things up without even realizing it. And then it's like
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: it's to like make something look a little more attractive
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: by making like a slate change and I was like,
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  Speaker 1: I even used it correctly in a sentence, just like
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: in the fourth grade spelling test.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, now I love Josh's obscenely difficult to spell.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Let it be known.
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  Speaker 3: I'm gonna correctly spell it for the hurdlers who may
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: want to write it down use it in their own sentence.
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  Speaker 2: Z h U z H. Who came up with that just.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: Like it sounds anyway? Also, we just need to, you know,
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: double click on this for a second. You recently spoke
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: with my dear friend Liz Plosser.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, well, small world.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Small, small world. She was recently on the show.
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  Speaker 3: This is actually my former boss from when I worked
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: at Self magazine. It's been quite some time since those days.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: But so excited for her and her new book, Own
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: Your Morning, and love to see when all of the
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  Speaker 3: circles kind of overlap in the good work that.
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  Speaker 2: We're both trying to do.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so fun.
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  Speaker 3: So, Gretchen Rubin, I mean again, like I said, I
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  Speaker 3: feel like you need no introduction, but in order for
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: us to get to a lot of the topics that
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  Speaker 3: we want to talk about, talking about career pivoting and
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  Speaker 3: how people can take steps to be happy in this
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: quote unquote new version of normal. I think it's really
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: helpful if we do a little bit of a backstory dive.
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  Speaker 3: So why don't we talk a little bit about how
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  Speaker 3: you got into being the person that people think about
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  Speaker 3: when they want to talk about getting happier.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it was kind of a multi step process. I
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  Speaker 1: started my career in law, and I was actually clerking
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  Speaker 1: for Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor on the Supreme
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  Speaker 1: Court when I got an idea that ended up turning
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: out to be my first book. But at that time,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't foresee myself becoming a writer. I didn't even
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  Speaker 1: know that I was researching a book. I just one
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  Speaker 1: of the things that's true about me, and it's been
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  Speaker 1: true my whole life is I'll get very interested in
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: a subject, and I'll do a ton of reading and researching,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: and I'll take a lot of notes. That's just sort
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  Speaker 1: of my thing. So I was out of my lunch
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  Speaker 1: break one day, I was walking around the Capitol and
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  Speaker 1: I thought, what am I interested in That everybody in
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  Speaker 1: the world is interested. It's just like a hypothetical question
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  Speaker 1: for me. And I thought, well, power, money, fame, sex,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: and I was like power, Money, Fame, Sex, and I
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  Speaker 1: instantly just started researching and researching and researching what seemed
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: to me to be like these very linked ideas. And
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: so this was familiar to me to kind of get
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: preoccupied with an idea and really go deep into it.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: But this just got bigger and bigger and bigger, and
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: so at a certain point I thought, well, this is
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: the kind of thing a person would be doing if
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: they were going to write a book. And then I thought, well,
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  Speaker 1: maybe I could write that book. And I went to
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: a bookstore and got a book called something like how
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: to Write and Sell Your Nonfiction Book Proposal, and I
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: followed the directions, and Power, Many, Fame, Sex was indeed
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: my first book. A lot of people think that The
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: Happiness Project was my first book, and like many people,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: I was an overnight sensation ten year after ten years
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  Speaker 1: of working, and so actually The Happiness Project was my
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  Speaker 1: fourth book. So I wrote my first book that I
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: wrote a biography of Winston Churchill and a biography of
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy, and I wrote a sort of a
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  Speaker 1: strange art book called Profane Waste. And then one day
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I thought, what do I want from life? Anyway? I
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: want to be happy, but I don't spend any time
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: thinking about how I can be happier or if you
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: can make yourself happier. Then I got very preoccupied with
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: that question, went to the running to the library, I
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: got a giant stack of books, started researching happiness, and
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  Speaker 1: then one day it occurred to me, well, I've just
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: been doing this for myself, but maybe this should be
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: my next book, my happiness project. And that's how I
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: turn my attention into happiness and good habits and all
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: the things that flow from the larger subjects of happiness.
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  Speaker 2: Wow.
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  Speaker 3: So, I mean, the first question I have is did
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  Speaker 3: you grow up being a super inquisitive person, because it
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  Speaker 3: seems as though this is the kind of behavior that
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  Speaker 3: someone would need to see modeled to kind of act
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: on it and feel comfortable saying like, you know what
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: I'm going to do, I'm going to do X. Like
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: it seemed like you were so sure in your steps.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I was a huge reader. I mean I've been
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: a huge reader my whole life, and I majored in English,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: and so I did a lot of things that a
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: person would do. And actually going to law school, there's
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: a lot you have to unlearn about writing if you're
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: trained as a lawyer. But there's a lot of good
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: things that you learn about writing and logical argument and
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  Speaker 1: research from being a lawyer. I didn't have a model
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  Speaker 1: for this, And it's funny you mentioned I have a
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin. My co host is my sister,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Kraft. She's five years younger than I am, and
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: now she's a showrunner and TV producer in Hollywood, so
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: she's a TV writer. But right out of college she
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: started writing kind of pulp fiction for teenagers. And so
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: even though I was five years older, she was really
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: a model for me of someone who was a professional writer.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: That was her job was to write. And at that time,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: as funny as it is for me now to think
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: of this, at that time, I didn't know anybody who
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: wrote books, and so it was very helpful for me
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: to be like, well, Elizabeth is doing this in a
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: different way, but you know, same deal. I think that
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: was very helpful for me to imagine myself moving forward
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: like that.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: So so special.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: And then you mentioned obviously clerking and being in Washington,
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: DC a huge career pivot to go from that trajectory
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: to deciding you know what I'm going to write, So
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: talk to me about perhaps some of the hesitancy, if any,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: that you had during that period, and advice that you'd
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: give for someone else who's interested in making a career
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: pivot of their own.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's one of these things where you
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: put one foot in front of the other until looking back,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: it seems like much more not dramatic, but but it's
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: more and more abrupt. Because at the time I was like, well,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: why don't I get this book? And like what does
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: it take? Well, and then I'm like, oh, I guess
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: I would need to get an agent. How does a
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: person get an agent? You know, it puts step by step,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: So I think one thing is to take it step
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: by step and don't expect yourself to get from A
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: to Z overnight. But I did have a moment where
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I was starting to think about this and and I
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: you know, and I thought, this, if there was ever
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: a time when my clerkship comes to an end, and
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: I had taken another really cool job at the Federal
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Communications Commission, but it was also it was short, and
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: it was also coming to an end. It was like,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: this is my opening, Like if I'm ever going to
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: take this risk. Now is the time to try, because
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I have this sort of natural opening, and it occurred
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: to me, you know, at this point I would rather
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer. This
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: is my time to either succeed or fail. And one
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: of the things about not trying is then you don't
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: risk failure, but then you can't succeed. And I was like,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: I wanted just if I'm going to fail, I want
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: to just like fail and move on. I didn't like
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: sort of being in this liminal state where like where
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I was sort of neither one thing or the other.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: And so one thing I would say to people is
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: to like move forward, you know, take steps forward. And
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: a question that I often ask myself when you're sort
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: of like, well should I do this or not? You know,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes it can feel very hard to decide even
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: how to think about a choice that you're facing. I
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: often say to myself, choose the bigger life. And only
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: you know what the bigger life is for you, and
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: different people could have it, you know, the bigger life
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: for someone what else would have been a legal career, absolutely,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: But when I framed the question for myself that way,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: it was obvious to me that if I could make
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: a go of it, the bigger life was to be
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: the life of to have the life of a writer.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: And so that's kind of clarifying because sometimes I don't
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: know about but like my pros and cons lists are
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: often very evenly balanced, and I'm like, I can't reason
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: my way out of this decision, you know, It's like
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I can't do it on the on the facts and
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: the numbers. I have to find a way to try
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: to plumb my depths and that's hard.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: And I mean this idea of I would rather be
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: happy trying something that's unknown, versus unhappy in you know,
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: the comfortable I think that so many struggle from leaving,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: you know, that place of comfort to go towards something
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: else that they want.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Well, but here's the thing about being happy, I think
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: sometimes and I couldn't say this if I were a scientist,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: but happiness does not always make us feel happy. And
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: so if you say, like, I'll be happy if I
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: give up my legal job and try writing, well, you're
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: not probably going to feel very happy. You're probably going
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: to feel insecure and anxious and kind of like uninformed
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: and out of your depth, and everybody knows what's going on,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: and everybody got the secret memo and what happened to
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: me when I felt like I was on the top
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: of my game and I knew what I was doing.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: It might not make you feel happy like in terms
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: of like, oh I feel good right now. It's more
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: it's a kind of happiness that's more like I'm living
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: up to the life that I want for myself, and
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: that that is often very painful.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: But I mean as someone and I think that you
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: and I kind of operate in the same way. From
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: the bit I know about you and from listening to you,
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: there's so much thrill in like hunting your own potential
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: when you're willing to take that leap, right.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: But some people don't like thrills. I don't know that
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I'm a person who's thrill seeking or adventure seeking, you know.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I just think sometimes you do something because you know
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: it's what you want, and you just sort of accept
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: that sometimes things just maybe just don't feel that good,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: like as they're unfolding for a while. I think for
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: some people it does, and it's really exciting and fun.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I happen not to be one of those kinds of people,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean it has to stop you from
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: going after what you want.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: So for you, in those first maybe months or a
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: couple of years after making this pivot, what would you
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: say were the biggest hurdles for you?
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Well, the biggest hurdles was I didn't know what to do.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: You know, I had a book, and I'm the kind
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: of person who's really good at like taking a book
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: and following directions. But it's one thing to read like
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: a paragraph in a book, and it's like, you know,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I didn't other thing to turn that into into uh,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: into action. And so part of it was I just
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I was entering an entirely new field, and so I
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: had to try to become more knowledgeable about I mean,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I knew tons and tons about literature and books and reading,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: but I didn't know about the book industry. And so
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: one of the things I would say to anybody is
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: really educate yourself on like if you want to have
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: a job in that industry, you have to think about, like, well,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: how does that industry work, what are the what's everybody
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: in that If you were in that field, what would
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: be the big news that you would be talking about
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: how do people think about things? Like one mistake I
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: see a lot of new writers making is they think
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: what people care about is how how intensely I want
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: to write, how deeply committed I am to my subject.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: But you see, if you're an agent or an editor,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: what you really worry about is is there an audience
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: for this book? Are people going to be excited to
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: read this book? Are you a person who can actually
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: complete this book? So they're thinking about different things. Both
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: of those things are important, but I think sometimes people don't,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: you know, you have to think about, well, how do
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: I fit my If I want this to be my profession,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: how do I think about this in terms of doing
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: it professionally, Because there's some things that you do that
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: you love to do that you wouldn't do professionally. But
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: then sometimes maybe you want to think about you know,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: it's like if you love to do photography and then
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: you're like, now I want to switch to be a
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: wedding photographer. Well, now you have a whole bunch of
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: new skills that you need, which you can get, but
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: you start needing to think about what's the business of
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: being a wedding photographer? Not just like Ooh, maybe I'll
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: put another tree in the foreground. It's like, yeah, that's
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: still important, but there's this other thing too.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: There's this other thing too.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: And then in this I I'm curious to know if
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: you struggled with the idea of feeling like you weren't
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: doing enough while you were trying to figure it out.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was always trying to do more. I
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: was always trying to do whatever whatever I could. So yeah,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: I think I did have the feeling like is there more?
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Is there more? What should I be doing? Sometimes it's
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: painful to be like I would do more, but I
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: don't know what to do, you know. I think that's
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: also very frustrating when you think I want to go
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: the extra mile, but I don't even know what direction
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: to go in, Which is why I think getting as
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: educated as you can be kind of can help you
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: manage that kind of anxiety, because the more you know,
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: the more you're like, oh, I see what I could
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: do that would be a good use of my time
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: and my energy, and I see the things that I
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: don't need to worry about, you know. There the more
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: the more you bring to it, the more you can
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: get from it.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: And I know, in writing The Happiness Project you talked
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: about not necessarily at all becoming an overnight success, but
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: maybe it looking that way. I know, in writing The
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Happiness Project you did something that a lot of authors
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: don't conventionally do, which is draft a lot of this
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: book about the whole book before really signing a book deal.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, so talk to me about that process.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Well, this has happened to me more than more than once.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: I will say that where I can't really dis like
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: when you're trying to get somebody to buy a book,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: and you know, get excited about a book, you have
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: to explain what it is, and you have to do
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: the whole elevator pitch where you can really sum it
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: up and crisply convey it. And a lot of times
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: I'm sort of like, I don't think I can really
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: explain it until I've written it. I don't know what
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I think until I write it, and I don't know
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: what to think. And by the time I know what
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I think, the book will be written, and so I
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: have a hard time kind of knowing what I think
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: in advance. I think some people know very very well
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: what they think, and then they're just writing what they think,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: whereas a lot of times I'm sort of trying to
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: figure out and I'm often very surprised by what I find.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: I often find things that I didn't expect to find,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: or things that I thought were true weren't true. So well,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: like my book Better Than Before is all about it
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: have it change how we can make or break our habits?
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: That book I was able to explain what it would be,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: but I because I could describe it even though I
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: didn't know the structure and exactly what my conclusions would be.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, do you want to learn how to
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: master your habits? Because I'm going to figure that out.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: But I certainly wouldn't have been able to say, what's
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: the framework that I'm going to use to describe that
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: answer because I took me. I had to write a
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: whole book before I really probably had to write two
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: books to get the one book to decide what I thought.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it makes sense, and especially because of
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: like the concept and the whole framework of the Happiness Project.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: For those who may be unfamiliar, If there are any
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: listening to the pod, why don't you talk a little
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: bit about what the Happiness Project really is?
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: So It was a year long experiment that I did
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: on myself. I was my own guinea pig to try
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: to see, you know, is it possible to make yourself happier, healthier,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: more productive, more creative? You know, what is happiness? Could
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: I make myself happier? And if I could make myself happier,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: what would I do? And what would I try to adjust?
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Or you know, what would I try to have more
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: of or less of? And so I figured that a
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: year was the kind of the right amount of time
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: for there to be real change, but it felt manageable,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: and so I gave every month a theme related to happiness,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: something that I wanted to work on. So it might
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: have been friendship or energy, and then I would give
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: myself a handful of concrete, manageable resolutions to try that
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I thought would help my happiness in that area. And
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: so it's very practical and very much like what can
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: you do tomorrow without spending a lot of time, energy
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: or money, you know. So it's not like I'm going
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: to go on a three week silent meditation retreat, because
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I really have to have things that I
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: can do as part of my ordinary day, as part
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: of my ordinary routine. But it turns out that for
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: me and I and since the books come out, I've
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: talked to so many people, for most of us, there's
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of low hanging fruit. There's plenty of things
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: that we can do to move the needle, to make
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: ourselves happier within the context of our ordinary day, even
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: if we're very, very busy.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: And I think that that's like what makes the whole
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: concept so accessible, right, I mean, you approached it in
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: such a way that the everyday person or someone who
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: you know relates to you can certainly go and create
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: their own happiness project of sorts. And in setting you know,
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: the themes so to speak, are choosing each value for
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: every month. How did you settle on those twelve specifics.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a really interesting question because you know, I
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: picked the things where I thought I had the most
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: to gain in terms of happiness, but other people would
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: pick other things. So, for instance, I've never been a
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: person who's particularly inclined toward music, but for some people,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: music is like an incredibly important element of their life.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: And I've talked to many people where music with's a
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: whole theme. So they might have had like their resolutions
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: might have had things like get back into practicing an instrument,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: or learn a new instrument, or join a group or
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: a choir, or make an effort to listen to new
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: music consistently, or go to life concerts or you know,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of things you can do if you
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: want to bring that into your life more. For me,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: it didn't. It wasn't something that for me I wanted
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: to work on. And I would say that that's one
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: of the big things that I learned that surprised me
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: is that we all want different things, Like we have
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: different interests and aims and values, and we all need
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: to get there in a different way. Like I love
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: to do something very consistently. If it's important to me,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I try to do it every single day. For me,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: it's easier if something happens every single day. Other people
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: want to feel more spontaneity, they want to have a
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: different kind of approach, and so there is no magic,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: one size fits all solution. And it's interesting because I've
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: talked to so many people. I created I've created these
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: new journals because I realized, like a lot of people
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: have the aim of like I want to keep a
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: journal that's a very very common resolution that people have,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: whether they want a journal because they want reflection, or
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: they want a journal because they want to like track
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: how many miles they've run in a day. You know,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: they want to keep some kind of record of their life.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: And I realize people are very different. Some people want
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: to don't break the chain where they like check it
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: off if they did it, and they write down how
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: many miles and then they have like a little note
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: where they write and all the different roots they did,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: or the different hikes they did, or you know like that.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: And then some people want to write one sentence every day.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: They don't want to keep a traditional journal where they're
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: writing a couple of pages. That's too much work. So
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: they want to write just one sentence. That's a great
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: way to keep a journal. There's you know, you don't
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: have to just because something doesn't work for you as
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: a method or a tool doesn't mean that you failed
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: at an aim. It just means like, Okay, well, is
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: there a different way that I could meet this aim?
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Because we have different aims and we also have different styles.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean you're truly talking about the power
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: of habit right here. So for those that struggle to
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: create and maintain habits. They maybe get into something for
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: a week or two and then they fall off the bandwagon,
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: which can totally feel certainly discouraging. What helpful tools or
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: suggestions you have for them to get in the groove
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: and stay in the groove.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Right if you're trying, if you're struggling, as many people do,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: to form a consistent habit, here's a couple things to
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: think about. I have a four tendencies framework that divides
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: people into upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. And if you
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: want to take a quiz and find out what you are,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: you can go to Gretchen Reuben dot com slash four
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: tendencies and take a quick quiz there and find it
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: out and get a little report on yourself. It's very helpful.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I'm an uph oh Emily, I knew that ten minutes in,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: and I love it because I'm an upholder too, so
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: we're on the same life. But so anyway, so that's
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: the quiz if you want to find that out and
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: understand what it means to be an upholder. So it's
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: all there. But what I will say, just sort of generally,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: even if you don't know about those categories, is it?
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: For many many people, they really need outer accountability to
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: meet an inner expectation. So if you said your things
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: said to yourself, things like I always keep my promises
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: to other people, but I have trouble keeping my promises myself.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: I have trouble making time for self care. I have
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: trouble putting myself first. I always give one hundred and
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: ten percent to my clients, or my customers, or my family,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: but I don't have any time for me. Then what
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: I would say you need, I'm saying you're an obliger
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: in my framework, and you need outer accountability even to
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: meet an inner expectation. So if you want to read more,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: join a book group, if you want to go for
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: a run every day, go with a friend who's going
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: to be annoyed if you don't show up. You know,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: work out with a trainer at a gym, raise money
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: for a charity. You know, you want to create a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: system about our accountability. For some people, that is what
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: is necessary. So one thing to think about is like,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: do do I do better when I have accountability? Because
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: some people do not. Rebels in my framework often do
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: not like to have accountability. They don't want somebody looking
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: over their shoulder. They don't want somebody knowing what they're
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: doing or putting things on the calendar particularly. But maybe
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: you know about yourself like, oh wow, I really do
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: do better when I'm in some kind of framework of accounability.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: So that's one thing to think about and another thing
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: to think about. There is just hilarious research showing how
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: much more likely we are to do something if it's
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: even the teensiest, tiniest bit more convenient. So I've talked
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: to people who sleep in their workout clothes so they
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: don't have to get dressed in the morning. There's this
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: research showing that if there's a salad bar and people
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: have to use tongs instead of spoons, they take less
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: food because it's just a little bit more effort to
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: use tongues. So anything you can do to shave off,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: if you can use a hook instead of a hangar,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: if you can pay a little bit more for a
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: gym that's right across the street from your office, you know,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: like when everything's back to normal, then one that's like
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: three blocks away. Any little bit of convenience tends to
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: make it easier. And you can also use it on
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: the opposite, any inconvenience makes it harder to do something.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: So I've talked to people who wanted to watch less TV.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: They weren't giving up TV, they wanted to watch less
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: so they put their remote control in a really inconvenient
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: place so they wouldn't just like, you know, be like, oh,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I'll just wander by and watch for five minutes because like, oh,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: it's too much of a house to go get the remote,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: you know. So anything you don't want yourself to do,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: make that inconvenient, because a lot of times just that
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: little bit of is all you need to kind of
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: turn your path. And that's when habits become automatic, you know, effortless.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: There's no decision to fatigue.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: It's just it just happens, product of our environment. You know.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: It's interesting.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: I feel like with one of the biggest habits so
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: to speak, or journeys that I went on when I
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: was younger, back in college, I lost a ton of
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: weight with the help of weight watchers. And for me
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: it was never now obviously called WW. It was never about, really,
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: to be honest with you, using the WW plan, as
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: it was about the fact that I had to show
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: up somewhere on like Tuesday nights and get on a
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: scale in front of another person. And that accountability factor
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: was the thing that helped me stay on track. Now
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: these days, I would say I have a lot more
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: intrinsic motivation. I have progressed along my journey and you know,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: done my fair share of study reading and book reading
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: and talking and reflecting. And so it's interesting though, because
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: these different you know, archetypes are these different types of people,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: are types of habit formation. You might be one way
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: for one thing and find that it's a little bit
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: different for something else.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's interesting kind of along those lines. Another
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: distinction that I found when I was studying habits as
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: substainers and moderators, and this is when you're facing a
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: strong temptation, not a weak tempation, a strong temptation. So like,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: I have a really really strong sweet tooth. And what
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I found is that if you're an abstainer like me,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: it's easier to have none. It's easier to give it
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: up altogether than it is to have a little bit.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: And so I could never understand like, oh, I just
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: have one little square of fine chocolate and that's all
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: I need. Who just have half of brownie, that's all
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: you want. I'm like, the minute I have half, I
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: want three. Yeo.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Same.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: But moderators are different. They're the kind of people that
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: want the one square. They do better when they have
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: a little bit when they have it sometimes and they
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: get kind of panicky and rebellious if they're told they
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: can never have anything. And so and like, I'm a
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: moderator when it comes to something like wine. I don't
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: really care about wine, so I can have half a
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: glass of wine, whereas a friend of mine said it's
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: none or four glasses. There is no in between for me.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: So you might be an abstainer about one kind of temptation,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: but then other things you're like, eeah, it doesn't really matter.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: But when I realized that I'm an abstainer, because all
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: these moderators were like clearly sincerely giving me this advice
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: that obviously didn't work for me, and I, as an abstainer,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: was like say to think people like why don't you
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: just give it up cold turkey? Why do you keep
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: breaking the rules, like like just get it off your plate.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: And then finally I realized there's no one right way,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: there's no one best way. It's just whatever is better
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: for you, And moderators don't understand that. For an abstainer
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: like me, abstaining is easier. It's the easier way. And
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: it's hard for me to understand that for a moderator
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: that's easier. It's kind of hard to put yourself in
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: somebody else's shoes. But once you realize, like people are different, like, oh,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: I'm married to somebody who's a moderator, but I'm an abstainer.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: So now it's not about convincing someone else that I'm right.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: It's about how do we create a situation where we
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: both thrive?
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: And that's such an important question. Right.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: My father's the kind of guy that can keep like
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: six different flavors of ice creams in the freezer. Well
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: I'm sure some of them like have been in there,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: no offend, but like maybe for a year.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Like the coverard with the crystals, and you're like, how
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: does this happen?
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Now?
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: How does it happens?
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: It wouldn't stay that way in my home, not at all,
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: because again going back to what we were just talking
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: about a product of our environment.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Right, But see, for a moderator, it doesn't bother them
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: whereas like for an abstainer, it calls to you. You're like,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: there's one just one bite, just two more bites, half
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: a bite of each flavor. You know what I mean.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: It's Monday, it's my birthday, it's raining outside, I had
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: a terrible day. I've been so good. I'll be so
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: good starting tomorrow. Like there's a million things, but for
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: some people it's like I like knowing that it's there,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: and if I have a little you know, I want
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: a little something sweet, Oh, it's go get a bite
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: or two. I'm like that works for you, and that's great.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: But if there's somebody in the house you like truly
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: is just going to weigh on my mind in the
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: middle of the night, wake me up, and like I'm
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: going to be dragged in there by like the tractor
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: beam of the death Star. Like we got to figure
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: out how to work that out, you know, because because
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: we're different, and that's that's okay. We don't have to
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: agree on what's the best way. We just have to say, well,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: this is how, this is what works for me.
• 33:24
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• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Let's get back to it.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: Let's go back a little bit to your story and
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: talk about after the Happiness Project comes out, how are
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: you feeling at this point, because again we've referenced a
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: couple of times now it's seemingly being this scenario where
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: it was like this woman came out of nowhere and
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: she is brilliant and oh my goodness. And you're like,
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: I've been here, but dot dot always great.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, because your big here as a writer is
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: that you can't keep going, you know. So you're like,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: You're like, I want to be able to write, keep writing.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: And I am so lucky because every book that I write,
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: I say to myself many times when I'm writing it,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: It'll never be this good again. This is the best
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: it's ever going to get. I'm never going to be
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: so interested in a subject. This is never going to
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: be so juicy, I'm so delicious. I Am never going
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: to have this much fun again. And then with my
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: next book, I'm like, oh my goodness, this is the best.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Now I'm at the top, Now I'm at the most
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: interesting subject. So I'm really fortunate because all my books
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: kind of naturally have led into the next book, and
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: so I'm never sort of like anxiously awaiting some kind
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: of lightning bolt. I'm always sort of like already starting
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: to think about something and get interested in something, and
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: then I poke around and a lot of you know,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: I have to figure out like what what how, what
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: my way in is or kind of what my what
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: my what my perspective is on something. But I've always
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: but I always know sort of what the next thing
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: is going to be. And that is one thing when
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: I was growing up, my father would always say to
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: my sister and me, enjoy the process, meaning if you
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: enjoy the process, outcomes don't matter as much. It's not
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: that they're not important, but it's like everything doesn't stand
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: or fall on an outcome if you've enjoyed the process.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: And that's definitely true as a writer, because I've had
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: some books do very well, I've had some book. If
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: a book flops, what they tell you is that it
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: fails to it failed to find its audience. That's the
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: delicate way they tell you. And that thing was a
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: big flop. So I've had books that failed to find
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: their audience. But because I have enjoyed the process so much,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: I still have enjoyed it. You know, I'm still like
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: I loved that book. I loved writing that book, and
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: now I've got something else that I'm really really excited about.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: And so and writers will often give that advice to
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: each other. It's like, don't hang all your hopes on
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: this book, like have your next your next book. And
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: so you're excited and you're moving forward because you don't
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: want to get too hung up on something that's really,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: in many ways outside your control, and so you want
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: to you just want to manage your expectations and just
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: keep moving forward. It's a milestone and in the life
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: of a writer. But it's not it's not like everything
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: rises or falls on like what happens like in a
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: particular month.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'd love to wrap on this concept
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: for just a second because I actually it's super applicable
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: to something that I'm going through, and I know something
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: that many individuals struggle with pinning all of your perhaps
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: self proclaimed success on the outcome that is uncontrollable.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Like, all you can do.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: Is poor whatever you can and whatever you have into
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: something and hope for the best. Right, do everything you
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: can within your power to, as my family motto is,
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: to do good. Right now, I'm dealing with an injury.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: I'm supposed to run a marathon in two and a
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: half weeks. I think we're under that now, and I'm
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: at a place actually where I'm quite at peace with
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: whatever decision that I'm going to have to call in
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: the next week or so, because I like you as
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: you're referencing, really take appreciation for the process that got
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: me here, right and the things that I gained in
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: the opportunity costs that go hand in hand with running
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: the marathon, not basing all the success on that final event.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: For individuals who struggle with this mindset, perhaps you know,
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: as many would call it at times, a growth mindset.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: What is it that you tell them to help them
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: kind of get over that hurdle.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Well, one thing I'll tell them, because I tell it
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: to myself all the time, like whatever your aim is,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Like your aim is to run that marathon. My aim
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: is like writing a book that finds its audience. There
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: are almost always there are many ways for that to succeed.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: So you're running a marathon, and there are many ways
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: this for this marathon to succeed for you. One is
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: that you actually run it and you have a wonderful adventure,
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: and that's really exciting, and that's something that you hope
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: will happen. But if you've enjoyed the process, one of
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: the ways that it's succeeded is that it has already
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: succeeded because you've had all the training and all the
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: planning that you've been doing along the way. And another
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: way that it's succeeded is that it's keeping you connected
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: to your identity as a runner and being part of
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: this group of people who are marathoners. And that's like
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: an exciting that's an excite. I'm sure that's a very
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: and identity that I identify with, but I sound seems very
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: cool from the outside. It's a really you know, it's
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: a passionate identity. If people are really committed to that,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: that's a way to succeed. And even the idea that like,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: you know what, I've come to a point where I
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: am not going to overtrain. And you've probably made that
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: mistake in the past where like you didn't listen to
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: your body and you took two steps forward and ten
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: steps back. I had a friend who loved running so
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: much that instead of being you know, off on the
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: sidelines for two weeks, it was six months because she
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: like rebroke her toe and it was this whole, big,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: huge thing that you can be Like, one way that
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: this succeeded is that I handled it in the way
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: that's right for me in the long term. And so
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: I've learned from my mistakes and this is going to
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: help me going forward. There maybe I'll write an article
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: about it, I'll do a podcast about it and talk
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: about going through this, and many many people will benefit
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: from my experience and like their lives will be happier
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: and healthier because of what I learned from going through this.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: That's a huge success. So there are many ways for
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: something to succeed. And so if you just pick one metric,
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: like on this morning, am I going to get up
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: and run a marathon? Yes? Or no? Well, that's a
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: very narrow window of success. But if you think, well,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: how are other ways that this? What else? There are
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: many ways for this to succeed for me, many many
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: elements of it leading off in all different directions, and
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: some of which I might not even be able to foresee.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: At this point, I have to kind of go through
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: it and then see what comes of it. A lot
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: of times very unexpected things happen.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: You know, did you yourself lean into community a lot
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: during those quote unquote flop moments for the books?
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, at that point, I didn't really have
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: a community because this was a while back, and so
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: I did. And in fact, but that's a very astute
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: question because when my book it was called It's Forty
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Ways to Look at JFK. It's a book that I love.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: I'm very proud of that book. I loved writing it.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: It didn't find its audience for reasons that I understand
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: now learned from that. But one of the things that
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: it taught me, and this is one of those things
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: where what do you know what's good news and what's
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: bad news? Because sometimes that you think is like a
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: big failure ends up being really important to later success
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: or adventure. But I was so I felt so powerless.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: I'm like, there's so many people who are interested in
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: the life of JFK. I truly believe that I have
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: a book that they would be fascinated by, but I
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: can't tell them about the book. The only way I
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: can do it is if somebody writes a review of it.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Because this was like before the Internet and all this
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: kind of you know, it was just as there was internet,
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: but like it wasn't where it is now. And then
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: I thought, you know what, I don't want to feel
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: this way again. I want to be in contact with
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: people who are interested in the same subjects that I am.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I want to be able to talk to people who
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: share my interests about what I'm excited about and let
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: them know what I've done if I've done something that
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: I think they would be interested in too. And that's
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: what got me to start a blog so far back
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: when I started writing that Happiness, I did it because
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I want to reach out to people now
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: before I even have a book, and so that's when
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I started to build that community because but it came
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: out of that feeling of I don't have a community,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: and I wish so much that I did that. Now
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: going forward, I'm really going to figure out how to
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: create that. And of course and since then, I just
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: have gonne deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, because
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: I realized just like it's like like this vast, limitless
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: treasure trove resource, you know, source of enthusiasm and engagement.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: So so I didn't think about it until you post
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: the question, but I think I guess, yes, I guess
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: it was my lack of community that got me to
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: create a community.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: How indicative of the kind of person that you are, right,
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: because for so many that feeling of loneliness often transfers
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: or transforms into great overwhelm and a little bit of
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: self loathing. So rather than lingering in that malise, so
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: to speak, you were like, Okay, I feel alone and
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: without and I'm going to do something about that.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Well, it's very true that this is this is something
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: that we talk about on the Happier podcast all the time,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: that that action is the antidote to anxiety. And so
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: often you're exactly right when you feel that anxiety, when
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: you feel overwhelmed or like maybe like oh oh gosh,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: like I'm such a loser. It's not when you feel
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: like taking action or reaching out. But if you do,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: if you can get yourself to take even a small step,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: it often makes you feel much less anxious because you see,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: like I'm taking action, I have my self efficacy, like
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: we'll see where this goes. It sort of gets you moving.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: And I mean I remember very clearly when I started.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: The first time I was on my blog, I'm like, well,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: no one will ever see this, so it doesn't matter.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: You know, stakes are very low. I'm just doing this
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: for like an experiment. I'm just doing like to poke around.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: There's no audience, so you know who cares? Well, little
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: did I know. But it all happened very gradually too.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes people are like, you know, we often
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: create a false choice or like it's either this or this.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: It's either nowhere or it's overwhelming. I either have no
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: footprint or I'm going to be trolled by internet jerks morning,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: noon and night for the rest of my life. It's like,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: you think there's something in between that, because I really
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: don't think those are the only two paths that are
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: in front of you. You know, sometimes people catastrophize, so
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: a little bit of action often goes a long way
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: towards helping people with like when they're feeling anxiety.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: A little bit of action goes a long way.
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: You also mentioned a buzzword before that I just want
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: to touch on quickly, and that is the word identity.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: For many you know, there are circumstances beyond our control
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: that strip away a part of our identity, whether perhaps
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: you were a wife and now you're not a wife anymore,
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: or back to the example of like, I'm still a runner,
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: but I'm not currently running. For individuals who have to
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: struggle with that transition, although at times it might be
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: brief and for times it might be forever, how does
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: someone cope with that loss of identity?
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: This is such a profound question, and I have to
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: admit that I was years into the research on this
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: until I really understood how powerful, how absolutely significant this
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: idea of what what are your ideas? And we all
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: have multiple identities, so what are your identities? And sometimes
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: and I mean, and it comes up in all different
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: complicated ways. And I'm sure you've seen this too with
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: the people you talk to, Like, sometimes people will be like, well,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not really a yoga person, you know, I can't
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: claim to be a yoga person. I'm like, well, that's
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: kind of funny because to me, you do yoga three
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: or four times a week and you've been doing that
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: for a couple of years. And they're like, oh, but
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: you know, I can't really say that I'm doing I'm
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: a big yoga person. I'm like, heck, yes you can.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Like there's no accrediting body today. You know, yeah, your actions,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: that is your identity. You should own that identity and
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: feel good about that identity. Then, sometimes people have identities
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: that are not good for them, where they're like they
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: kind of say like, oh, well, I could never do
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: that because you know, I'm so disorganized, I can never
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: put anything away. I'm like, well, don't you don't have
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: to buy into that identity so much, because then maybe
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: you you don't lean in when you feel the urge
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: for organization. I mean that's that's obviously like a very
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: shallow kind of example. But but sometimes people have identities
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: that that sort of are stumbling box for them or
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: like make them feel like it's so core to their
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: identity that they have certain kind of behaviors that they
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: couldn't possibly break them. Like, just for an example, I
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: know somebody who said, well, I really identified as a baker,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: like I'm the person bringing coo cookies and cupcakes and
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: I'm the one, you know, bringing desserts and surprising people
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: on their birthdays. And she said, when I gave up sugar,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: I had to give up that identity, like I could
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: cook in other ways, but that kind of sort of
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: pastry baker I had to let go up. And she
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: said that, like you say, even that was painful because
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: it meant rethinking my identity. What does it mean if
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: I can't be like I'm the fun, super fun baker
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: now that I'm doing something that for her, she had
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: developed diabetes. She really really wanted to do that, so
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: she had to grapple with that identity and it is hard.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we do it by choice, as in her case,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: well sort of sort of her choice, sort of not
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: her choice. Sometimes it's not your choice, like you're getting
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: a divorce, like you say. Sometimes it's like, oh I
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: blew out my knees and so now I can't do
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: mountain climbing anymore because I just you know, so it
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: was taken, you know it. It wasn't my choice to
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: change that. And I think I think it's something to
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: really think about and address and to acknowledge the pain
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: of it, and then to think about, well, are there
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: other identities that might be that might be related to that,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: or that might give me the same kind of satisfaction.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe I can't go mountain climbing anymore, but I could
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: go walking. I could do a gentle hike. And that
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: taps into my other an aspect of my identity, which
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: is that I'd love to be out in nature. I
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: want to be all alone and feel like there's no
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: one around for miles and it's just me in the
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: natural world. It's like, well, you can do that in
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: other ways other than mountain climbing. That was one way,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: and you can't do that, and that is sad. But
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: there are other ways to claim that identity for yourself
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: in a way that works for you now. But it's
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: surprised you, Like knowing myself is so easy, like who
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: am I just hang out with myself all day long,
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: like super obvious, But it's actually quite hard to know ourselves,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: and sometimes we don't want to admit things that we
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: identify with or A friend of mine wanted to cut
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: back on drinking. She didn't want to give up drinking,
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: but she wanted to cut back, and she said, it's
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: hard for me because I feel like I'm the fun one.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: I'm the one that says let's do it. I'm the
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: one that says let's order another rant. And I'm like,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: but you're still fun. You would always be fun. You're
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: super fun. And she said, you know what, I am
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: super fun. I'm like, you're super fun of breakfast, Like
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: you don't need you know, it doesn't depend on that,
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: you know, but she had to think that through.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I totally, I totally hear you.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: I could literally talk to you in so many different
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: like directions for forever about everything. But you did mention
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: something in here that I feel like is gonna be
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: helpful touch on really quick, which is you were talking
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: about the other woman who was trying to give up sugar.
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: And I know that this is something that you did,
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: So if you have talked to us a little bit
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: about what that experience was like for you and maybe
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: some takeaways that you have from it, because I know
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: that it is something that so many of us think
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: about doing pretty regularly.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: I love it, I mean, and I'm not saying everybody
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: would want to do it, or that everybody should do
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: it or everybody would do it the way that I
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: did it. I'm just so I'll just talk about my experience. Yeah,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: as I said, I have a very very strong sweet tooth,
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: and it was just this noise in my head all
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: the time. Now later, more and more, one, two, three,
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: does this count? What about this? And it was just
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: sort of always nagging at me. And then I just decided,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: you don't have to give up sugar, and I basically
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: give up all carbs. So I'm one of those I'm
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: one of those bonkers low carb people that you read about,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: Like I really eat no carbs except for la nuts
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: and vegetables. And I just loved it because then all
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: that noise went out of my head. It was so boring,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: it was so draining. It's just like it's off the table,
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: and now I can go, I can have ice cream
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: in the freezer and it doesn't bother me, and I
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: can sit, you know, like at a table with a
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: big plate of cookie fresh baked chocolate of cookies in
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: the middle of the table and I'm not resisting it.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: I don't even notice them because I just gave up sugar.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: So and so that really really works for me, and
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: it just kind of it just kind of it made
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: me enjoy food more because people were like, but you're
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: giving up so much pleasure, and I'm like, for me,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: it wasn't like that. For me. It's like I feel
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: more pleasure now in food. It feels much less complicated
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: and much less draining. And I also would have a
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: thing where I would get super hungry because I would
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: have kind of spikes and drops and like shaking hungry.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: And now it's like a much more even kind of
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: like gradual hunger mounting, which is just kind of in
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: my day to day life. I just find it much
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: more pleasant to like have that kind of pattern in
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: my in my kind of my rhythm of my day.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: But what I would say, and again this kind of
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: goes to standard moderator. For me as an abstainer, it
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: was just like okay, that's off the table, and it
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: was not it was like okay, you know, like once
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: I just knew I wasn't having any it was a
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: lot easier. I will say that for some people don't
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: want to do it this way, and that don't break
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: the change journal that I was talking about. A lot
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: of people use it like that because they're like, well,
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: maybe I don't want to do it every day, but
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: I want to do it most days, So I want
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: to have an easy where I can just like check
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: it off, or like I want to track it, you know.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: Or sometimes when people are contemplating a big habit change
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: like this, they want to kind of monitor their behavior
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: in advance, which is often very helpful to see like
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: where am I now, Like maybe I think I do this,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: but I actually don't do that, Or maybe I actually
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: eat pretty healthy except on the weekends, and so maybe
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: this is really a weekend problem, it's not like a
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: whole week problem. Or maybe this is a travel problem,
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: or maybe this is maybe I just maybe what I
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: want to do is stop eating after dinner. Like in
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: the United States, people eat a tremendous amount of like
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: their daily intake after dinner. And so maybe you're like, well,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: look now that I like i'm tracking my habits, I'm
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: seeing that's a pattern. And so I think sometimes when
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: people want to like tackle really big behavior change, thinking
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: about it kind of like day to day what do
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: I do and what do I want to do can
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: be a really really helpful strategy for people who who
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: find it, find it easy to do. Like some people
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: they're like, ah, no, like throw that thing away. I
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: do not want to use that. It's like, Okay, that's
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: not gonna work for you. Fine, Like, don't try to
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: force it. Find a different tool. But but I've just
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: found over time, this streak approach and the and the
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: kind of reflecting on what I do approach really for
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: many people gives them a lot of insight and a
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: lot of.
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: Motivation, right right, And I mean in this you're also
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: saying that it's important to be honest with yourself and
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: ask yourself tough questions.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah you speak I think you yes, yes people, yes, yes,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Well this is why it's really important to do it
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: day to day. And and and researchers talk about this
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: problem all the time. They'll do research like yeah, what
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: do you did? Where were you eating a month ago?
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: And it's like people are just making that up. We
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: have no idea, and we're wildly more likely to we
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: tip the scales in our in our own favor, Like
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: you know, you remember the things that you're Oh, I
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: remember that you know that extremely healthy meal that I
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: cooked after I went to the farmer's market and then
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: you're like, those other things kind of slide out of
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: my mind. I don't I don't remember that that that
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: particular uh, you know, trip to the to the strip mall. Yes,
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: So absolutely honesty if you want, if you want to,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: if you want to improve things or know yourself better,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: we have to be honest. And it's hard. It's often
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: very hard.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: It's often very hard.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: I mean beyond talking to yourself about what you're eating
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: and perhaps not being completely candid about writing all of
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: those things down. The idea of asking tough questions is
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: actually really important, right, not just with yourself but with
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: other people in your life.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: So why don't we chat a little bit about that.
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: I know that this is a category that you've done
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: a little bit of work in as well.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, And so we were talking earlier about how it's
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: kind of hard to know ourselves and one way you
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: can kind of get an insight into yourself is by
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: asking yourself a question that maybe kind of gives you
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: a perspective or or lends into yourself that you that
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: you might not have noticed before. And again, back to
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: these journals I have and know yourself Better journal because
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of people do find it really helpful to
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: have these sort of reflections to kind of guide their thinking,
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: because it's hard to just look in the mirror and
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: see what's there clearly. It's like if somebody be if
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: somebody asks you, like a really good question. So here's
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: a funny thing. A lot of adults don't know what
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: to do for fun, Like they know what's fun for
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: the whole family, They you know, maybe right, and then
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: they know work and then kind of like the chores.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: But if you're like, what would you do just for fun?
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: If you had a whole day free, what would you
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: do for fun? Or if you had a hobby, what
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: would your hobby be? Or you know, and so it's like,
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: what do you do for fun? Here's a great question
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: to ask yourself. What did you do for fun when
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: you were ten years old? Emily? What did you do
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: for fun when you were ten years old?
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, I played like zena warrior princess in the
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: backyard with my best friend.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: So the question is, if that's what you did for fun,
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: what could you do as an adult that would tap
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: into that pleasure? Because what you did, So what I
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: did for fun when I was ten years old is
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: I would copy out my favorite quotations from books that
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: I was reading into these beautiful books, and then I
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: would illustrate them with magazine pictures. And nowadays, as an adult,
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: I have I have a Moment of Happiness newsletter where
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: like five days a week I send out like a
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: beautiful quotation about happiness or human nature. And it's so
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: fun for me, and it's just as I was a
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: ten year old, Like sitting on the floor and writing
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: it out with a felt tip marker in a blank
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: book is exactly how I feel now. And I'm like
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: reading a book and typing it into my big document
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: of all my favorite quotations, and I'm like, it's even
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: better because I get to show it to other people.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: It's not just my book that I can maybe show
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: to a friend. It's like I can send this to
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: as many people who love quotations as much as I do.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: But it's fun for me exactly the same way, but
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: it's adapted to my adult situation, and so okay, playing
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: like what might that be? Maybe you're gonna start a
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: monthly charade thing. Maybe you're gonna do immersive theater. Maybe
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: you're gonna I mean, where could that lead? But it's
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: probably something that you would find fun. Yeah.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, I hear where you're going with this.
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: I don't necessarily think I need to like pick up
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: a fake sword and like go to for Green Park
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: and like.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: Start colonial williams Berg. I'm putting on my apron and
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna need some dough. We're gonna make
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: a candle.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: Close to you, I will say. You and I obviously
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: have many things in common. And when I was younger,
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: I did a similar thing. So I think that that's
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: like kind of these different ways that we engage in
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: our respective communities. I mean, I do think that through
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: asking these tough questions. We just had a thirty day
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: challenge with a bunch of the hurdlers and it became
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: something that was a really beautiful opportunity not only for
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: each of the individuals to do some like self inquisition work,
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: but then also to come together and have these conversations
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: because of that connectivity and these things that bring us
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: together are oftentimes when you are someone that's willing to
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: do this work, that's willing to do this inquisition, finding
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: like minded people can be a way for us to
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: continue on with that and do more of it well. A,
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: it's often accountability. B.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: We can all learn from each other and a lot
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: of people you're like, wow, I never thought about sleeping
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: in my work out close. That's amazing. I'm going to
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: do that, you know, or whatever you get ideas and
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: then and it goes to that identity I'm the kind
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: of person who does that. I'm around other people. And
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: one of the things that I found was absolutely striking
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: in my for better than before when I was doing
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: all the habit research. It gives all the twenty one
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: strategies that you can use to make or break your habits.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: And one of the strategies, and a very universal strategies,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: is the strategy of other people. And it is really
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: striking how much we pick up habits from other people,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: good habits. If one spouse gives up smoking, the other
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: one's much more likely to give up smoking, but also
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: to the bad. So we're constantly trying to habits back
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: and forth. So if you put yourself in a cohort
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: like this thirty day challenge, and you're like, these are
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: my people, I'm one of these folks. We're all working
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: on this together. That's gonna kind of keep you focused,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: and just that being around other people who were doing that,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: even with that you consciously realizing it, that's going to
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: start to seep in and to shape it and to
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: make it easier to do that. If there's a habit
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: you want, you want to put yourself around people who
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: have that habit. If there's a habit you don't want,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: you want to pull back from people who do have
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: that habit. Because it's like somebody was saying to me,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: I want to be I want to learn to be
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: much more frugal, but my friends are definitely the kind that, like,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: you know, they're ordering appetizers there or you know, and
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: he says, it's hard for me to hold to my hand.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: They're not pressuring me to spend money. It's not that
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: it's just that I don't. It's harder for me to
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: keep my habit in this context. And it's like, yeah,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: that's human nature. So yeah. And so putting yourself into,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: like in a group of people who are really striving
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: for the same thing that you're striving for is enormously
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: beneficial in a multitude of ways, some of which you're
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: probably not even consciously aware of totally.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: And then on the note of tough questions.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: After a while, maybe someone who starts to ask themselves
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: some of them can get more comfortable continuing to answer them.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: For someone who's struggling to like open themselves up to
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: that level of inquisition, is there perhaps like a best
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: practice way to ease into that?
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I think you know, there are questions that you
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: can ask yourself that that you can sort of go through.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: So one question might be what am I waiting for?
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: So because because a lot of times people are will think, well,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: I'll start it in the new year, or it's going
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: to be like after after the summer's over and everything
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: calms down, like there's always you know, tomorrow, it's always
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: easier than today. And so sometimes it's like, if I'm
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: just waiting for things to get easier, you know what,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: it's probably like now, now is always a really good time.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: So if what am I waiting for? Am I kind
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: of putting myself on pause for sort of no good reason,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: but just sort of out of anxiety. One question that
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: a lot of people say helps them a lot is
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: what would I do if I weren't scared? So if
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: I could just imagine like another person doing it, what
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: would you know, and that can often be kind of
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: an interesting way to get at this. What would I
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: do if I weren't scared? Is to say, what would
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: I tell a friend? Right, because you're not scared for
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: your friend, because your friend's the one that's got to
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: do it. So what advice would you give to a friend? Yeah,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: because you don't feel that fear in relation to someone else,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: and often you trust in your friend, You believe in
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: your friend, and you know you have optimism for your friend.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: What would you say to your friend? Well, then you know,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: tell repeat it back to yourself.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: Super helpful, super helpful, and some good visualization like in
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: that as well. Obviously, as we can tell from the
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: last fifty plus minutes we've spent together that you are
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: someone that a lot of people look to for advice
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: and for guidance. You've got almost something like two hundred
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: thousand followers on instead and so many beyond that. That's
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: who they see when they look at you. But what
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: is it that you see when you look in the mirror, Gretchen, Well, you.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: Know, we try to be very honest, so I hope
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: that it's very consistent. But you know, but that is
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: a great question. I'm constantly thinking, like, what are my
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: blind spots? What am I telling myself is true that
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: isn't true? What do I think are my limitations that
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: are not my limitations? I think it's the grit. I
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: think you put your finger on one of the great
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: questions of our lives, which is you know who am I?
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Actually one of the things I realized recently, like right now,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: I'm working on a book about the five senses and
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: how we can tap into the five senses to really
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: bring ourselves a sense of vitality. And that came from
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: me really looking at myself and thinking, you know, I
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: am really I'm absent minded, I'm absent bodied. I walk
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: around kind of in a fog. I don't tap into
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: my senses as much as I should. I think I'm
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: leaving a lot of opportunity unity for just like appreciating
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: the moment in the world around me. And it was
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: really acknowledging that limitation of myself that got me very,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: very excited about trying to systematically address that. So I
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: think it was acknowledging something about myself that I wish
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: were not true but is true.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: It's so interesting to hear you talk about the premise
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: for this upcoming project. I know the premise for the
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: Happiness Project was like the same kind of level of
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: like self inquisition and asking yourself if there was more
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: that you could do there?
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: Do you use the theme ever?
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Take a step back and like, are you ever your
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: own hype woman?
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Or I sort of love this Benjamin Franklin kind of
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: constant guinea pig, constant testing. I find it really really fun, Like,
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: give me a good try this at home. I love that,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: So I do not find it exhausting and overwhelming. Now
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: do other people around me feel like they're innocent bystanders? Yes.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: My sister Listen, who's the co host of Happier with
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: Gretcher Rubin, she calls me a happiness bully too, because
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: I'm that way to myself. But also if you're close
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: to me and I think that there's a way for
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: you to be happier, like I can get kind of
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: like insistent on that, but it comes from a place
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: of love. So yeah, does.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: Anyone around you ever just tell you how magnificent you
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: are so that you can hear.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: It from somebody else.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: No, I wish they would.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: No, all right, I'm here to tell you today, Gretcha,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: you're a pretty awesome, stellar human.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you, and so are you.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: Well, I would be remiss if I didn't before I
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: let you go here, talk a little bit about where
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: we are as a society after the last year. So
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: many people after the last eighteen months in this pandemic,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: going through some tough spots and dealing with everything from
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: negative self talk to anxieties of just simply walking down
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: the street. So when it comes to us moving forward
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: with a little bit of optimism and trying to find
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: our happy as we progress, what would you say are
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: some of the steps that people can take in that
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: finding they're happy in this new quote unquote normal.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: Well, it's it's a there's been a huge disruption. There's
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: so much uncertainty, there's so much hardship and suffering. Certainly,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: but I would say now more than ever, sort of
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: the advice about happiness, which is like ancient ancient philosophers
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: and contemporary scientists agree on this, like if you had
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: to pick one aspect of your life, pick relationships. To
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: be happy, we need to have deep intimate bonds, we
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: need to have enduring relationships, We need to be able
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: to confide. We need to be able to get support
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: and also give support. We need to be able to
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: we need, you know, we need to feel like someone
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: has our back. And and this is part of what
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: has been so distressing about this time is that so many,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: so many of our usual ways of connecting have been
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: disrupted or altered, and that's been really hard for people
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: to manage. But so thinking about you know, if you're
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: thinking about, oh gosh, should I get on another zoom
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: call with my college roommates, like I'm so tired of that?
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: Or like should I, you know, own next year my
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: college reunions coming up? Like should I deal with the
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: time and the energy to do that? Like anything like
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: should I, oh gosh, my friend keeps canceling on me
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: for good reason, but should we just keep rescheduling that
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: hikee because it's such a nuisance. Anything that deepens our
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: relationships or broadens our relationships. Anything where we are giving
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: into our community, when we feel like we're making things
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: better or we're helping or we're teaching, anything that goes
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: to those bonds with other people. If I had to
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: pick one thing for being happier, I would say anything.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: If you're trying to figure out what to do with
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: your time, energy, or money. Anything that goes to relationships
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: is something that's likely to make you happier, and it'll
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: make you feel more supported, and it will also make
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: you feel like you're better able to support others, and
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: that is also a tremendous source of happiness. One of
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: the best ways to make yourself happier is to make
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: other people happier. And one of the best ways to
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: make other people happier is to be happier yourself.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: I love that. I love that, Gretchen.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: What is one of the things that makes you happy
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: right now?
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: Reading? Reading? It's my playground and my cubicle. I love reading,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: and so that is something now and forever reading.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean this beckons the question what are you
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: reading right now?
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: I am reading The Yellow Room by Sarah Broom, which
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: is more.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: And if you had to recommend a book for the
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: next Hurdle Book Club, what should we be reading?
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Direction ooh, fiction non fiction.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: We're usually leaning into like a nonfiction, like we're talking
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: personal development, self help, that kind of stuff. Not long
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: ago we read Grit, so it's like a hint of
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: where we've been. The power of habit.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good book. I'm trying to think of
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: a great five census book. Oh, this is Your Brain
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: on Music by Daniel Levitton. It's so exciting. You read
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: all about your brain and how you listen to music,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: and there's a lot in there about how you can
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: use music to pump yourself up and calm yourself down,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: and it gives you an appreciation for your body. And
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: so I think for people who are interested in kind
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: of self development and self understanding, it's really interesting to
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: it just it just fills you with awe about the
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: human body and what our bodies can do without us
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: even noticing the sophistication. It's just it's it's really it's
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: a transcendent thing to think about. And it's also like
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: super interesting and practical.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: If you were to recommend to the hurdlers who have
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: never read any of your titles before a good place
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: to start, would you tell them to start with the
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: Happiness Project.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, unless they're very focused on changing their habits, in
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: which case I would say better than before, specifically about
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: habit change, I think the Happinest Project is more fun read.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: It's more on the memoir side and it's all about happiness,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: which is great. But if you're like, I don't care
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: about this Gretchen Ruben and how she got happier, I
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: want to know, like how to get myself to go
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: to bed at ten thirty every night, I'm like, well
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: better than before. We'll like goes right to the heart
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: of that. So either one of those probably would be
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: good for.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: The hurdlers perfect well.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: Gretchen the way that I close the podcast every time,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: right now, you have an opportunity to offer yourself one
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: piece of advice. Going through a big hurdle moment, let's
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: say the moment when you decided that you were gonna
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: stop clerking and start writing, you have an opportunity to
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: offer yourself back then a piece of advice. Right now,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: looking back on it, What do you tell yourself?
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: I would tell myself something that I've learned now but
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: I did not know then, which is if you're not failing,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: you're not trying hard enough. And so go into this
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: thinking it's okay for me to fail, because if I fail,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: I will know that I am trying hard. And if
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: there is no failure, I need to figure out more
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: things to try so I get my failures in.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: I love it, Gretchen.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: I am so ecstatic just at the opportunity that we
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: had here to sit down together. I know that there's
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: so many takeaways from this time, and I'm so grateful
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: for you and the work.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: That you do, and I know that the community is
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: as well well.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I so enjoyed our conversation. I
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: feel like we could talk all day, so I really
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: appreciate it.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: I wish that we could. How do how do the
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: hurdlers keep up with you? How do they follow along
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: with you? What can they get in on? Give us
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: all the details.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So if you want to go to sort of
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: the hub of all my things, you can go to
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: Gretchen Reuben dot com and you can read about my
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: books and there's all kinds of free resources. If you
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: are a podcast listener, which clearly you are, you can
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: listen to Happier with Gretchen Ruben. That's a weekly podcast
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: that I do with my cost and my sister Elizabeth,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: and it's all about it, like concrete, manageable ways to
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative. I'm on
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: social media everywhere you would look for Gretchen Ruben and
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: if you're interested in the journals, you go to the
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: Happiness Project and you can find it there.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: Beautiful.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: I'm over at Emilybody and at Hurdle Podcast Another Hurdle conquered.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: Catch you guys next time.