Latest / Pod Save America / Can Democrats Fight Trump Without Being Defined by Him? (with Gov. JB Pritzker)

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Can Democrats Fight Trump Without Being Defined by Him? (with Gov. JB Pritzker) · Pod Save America

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Lovett. I just
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  Speaker 1: wrapped a conversation with J.B. Pritzker. We covered a lot
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  Speaker 1: of ground. I really appreciated getting to talk to him.
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  Speaker 1: We talked about fighting back against Trump without getting defined
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  Speaker 1: by Trump. We talked about how our childhoods shape us,
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  Speaker 1: including how losses in his own life shaped him and
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  Speaker 1: the difference between having money and having values and coming
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  Speaker 1: from a wealthy family while advocating for progressive causes. We
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  Speaker 1: talked about Star Wars and and Andor and the ways
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  Speaker 1: in which it is relevant and inspiring to us now.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: We went back and forth on some Star Trek movies.
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  Speaker 1: We talked about gambling. He's a man after my own heart.
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  Speaker 1: It was a great conversation. I really liked getting a
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  Speaker 1: chance to talk with him. I think you'll like it too.
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  Speaker 1: So here it is. Welcome back to the pod, Governor J.B. Pritzker.
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  Speaker 1: Good to see you.
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  Speaker 2: Great to see you, John.
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  Speaker 1: So back in October, you and Governor Gavin Newsom threatened
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  Speaker 1: to leave the National Governance Association when the government refused
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  Speaker 1: to put out any kind of bipartisan statement in opposition
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  Speaker 1: to the ways in which Trump was deploying National Guard
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  Speaker 1: without the permission of governors. A couple months later, I
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  Speaker 1: did notice that just this week, the association did put
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  Speaker 1: out a statement not wanting the National Guard assigned without
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  Speaker 1: governor's permission to the Space Force. I have not seen
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  Speaker 1: any other statements. Where are we with the bipartisan governors
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  Speaker 1: on defending your prerogatives?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'll remind you that back in 2024, there was
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  Speaker 2: actually a move by Biden to deploy the National Guard
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  Speaker 2: for the Space Force. And Greg Abbott and the rest
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  Speaker 2: of the Republicans and Democrats, who was unanimous, in fact,
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  Speaker 2: including me, said this is an improper use of the
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  Speaker 2: National Guard by the federal government, federalizing them for the
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  Speaker 2: Space Force. So that was the feeling of Republicans and
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  Speaker 2: Democrats in 2024. Donald Trump gets elected, and all of
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  Speaker 2: a sudden, Greg Abbott is standing there saying essentially, no,
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  Speaker 2: it's fine for the president to federalize troops and send
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  Speaker 2: them into American cities or use them for other purposes.
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  Speaker 2: And this is like the story of the Trump administration,
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  Speaker 2: of course, is where all the Republicans have caved. entirely
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  Speaker 2: and they're willing to contradict themselves a year later. So
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  Speaker 2: where we stand now is that, I mean, I have
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  Speaker 2: the same position that I had a year ago, but
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  Speaker 2: clearly Greg Abbott and other Republicans don't. There have been
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  Speaker 2: a couple of Republicans. I want to give some credit
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  Speaker 2: here because Governor Stitt from Oklahoma, Governor Scott from Vermont,
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  Speaker 2: both came out and said, well, Stitt in particular, said, like,
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  Speaker 2: you know, we wouldn't want Pritzker sending his National Guard
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  Speaker 2: into Oklahoma. Right. And, you know, and Scott similarly criticized
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  Speaker 2: the federalizing of these troops for the purposes the president
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  Speaker 2: was using them for. And so, look, I mean, there
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  Speaker 2: are Republicans who agree on states' rights, but remember that
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  Speaker 2: when they were the states' rights party? And now, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's just that everybody's caved and they've all become collaborators.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there's been this interesting hinge point around Indiana
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  Speaker 1: where these Indiana Republicans have really stood up to Trump
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  Speaker 1: in a big way this week. And it does seem
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  Speaker 1: like the more pressure and threats coming from the administration
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  Speaker 1: and its allies, the more they dug in their heels.
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  Speaker 1: A Heritage Action, which was once, to your point, something
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  Speaker 1: that claimed to advocate for conservative principles, put out a
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  Speaker 1: post saying that that the administration would cut off all
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  Speaker 1: federal funding to Indiana if these Republicans didn't go along.
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  Speaker 1: And it seems like that mattered here. And I'm wondering
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  Speaker 1: if Indiana Republicans standing up to Trump is important for
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  Speaker 1: what happens going forward among other Republicans, if you're hearing
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  Speaker 1: from other governors about the ways in which, wow, we
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  Speaker 1: didn't think they were going to come after us. We
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  Speaker 1: thought this was just something fun that Trump would do
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  Speaker 1: to Democrats.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I think it's an indicator of the spell
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  Speaker 2: is beginning to break. I wouldn't say that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: we've seen a real, not to turn a phrase, but
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  Speaker 2: turning point. I think what we're seeing is that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: Marjorie Taylor Greene and, you know, Thomas Massey and others
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  Speaker 2: who are beginning to show some independence. Now you've seen
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  Speaker 2: Indiana Republicans, you know, who are just, these are mainstream conservatives, typically.
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  Speaker 2: who gave in for a while to Donald Trump. And
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  Speaker 2: now we're saying, you know, this isn't working for us
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  Speaker 2: anymore because they gave in because they felt threatened. Now
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  Speaker 2: the threats are offensive to them. And I think that's
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  Speaker 2: what really led them in the end. Now I'll take
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  Speaker 2: a little bit of credit because we've said in Illinois,
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  Speaker 2: if Indiana goes and changes their districting redistricts, we're going
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  Speaker 2: to have to do it in Illinois. And I think
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  Speaker 2: just holding that out again, small amount of credit I'll
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  Speaker 2: take for, I think we've held out the idea that
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  Speaker 2: we're going to invalidate what you do in Indiana. Why
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  Speaker 2: would you even bother doing it? And that's been the
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  Speaker 2: point of, of doing it. If we have to, we will. But,
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  Speaker 2: but I want to give credit where credit is due.
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  Speaker 2: There's one particular Senator whose name, I think Bray may
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  Speaker 2: have his name, you know, who, who expressed a kind
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  Speaker 2: of outrage at, at the things that Trump was doing
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  Speaker 2: that made him want to say, you know, I'm not
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  Speaker 2: going to do this. This is, you know, one, you know,
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  Speaker 2: step too far. And, uh, and many others stepped up.
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  Speaker 2: You heard some of the debate. I listened to some
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  Speaker 2: of it live yesterday. Uh, you heard some of the
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  Speaker 2: debate and people getting threatened, their lives were being threatened.
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  Speaker 2: And by the way, by people from outside of Indiana, uh,
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  Speaker 2: turning point action was, you know, involved. Uh, and, uh,
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  Speaker 2: I think they just felt like, you know, they're a
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  Speaker 2: Hoosier way of life. The Midwestern way of life is
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  Speaker 2: being attacked by, outsiders and their traditional conservative values are
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  Speaker 2: under attack. So I give them a lot of credit. 31-19,
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  Speaker 2: that's quite a loss for the president. So I do
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  Speaker 2: think it's an indication of something that's been slowly creeping forward,
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  Speaker 2: which is the unpopularity of Donald Trump is beginning to
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  Speaker 2: affect whether people are still struck by the fear of
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  Speaker 2: Donald Trump.
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  Speaker 1: So is Illinois standing down on the redistricting now that
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  Speaker 1: Indiana has backed off? Or is there some party that's like, well,
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  Speaker 1: we should just do it anyway. Why not? Other states
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  Speaker 1: have done gerrymanders. We should get in a couple extra
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  Speaker 1: votes in the House.
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  Speaker 2: I want to be clear that I don't like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: mid-decade redistricting. I think this is, you know, it's traditionally
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  Speaker 2: not done. It shouldn't be done for the purposes that
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  Speaker 2: Donald Trump is using them for. So I'm, you know,
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  Speaker 2: genuinely opposed to the idea of doing it, I also
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  Speaker 2: see that our democracy is under threat. And that if
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  Speaker 2: you had an election now, and I believe next November,
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  Speaker 2: the Democrats will win the Congress fair and square with
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  Speaker 2: the districts that exist and have existed since 21. And
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: so there shouldn't be a reason to do this. But
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  Speaker 2: if Donald Trump is going to cheat and that's what
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  Speaker 2: he's doing, right, it's what he, uh, is doing in
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  Speaker 2: tech has done in Texas. Uh, it's what he has done,
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  Speaker 2: you know, across the country in Missouri. Uh, you know, we're, we're,
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  Speaker 2: you know, we're working on a helping with the referendum
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  Speaker 2: in Missouri, hoping that the referendum will succeed. This would
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  Speaker 2: be to stop the redistricting in Missouri, but I think
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  Speaker 2: it's been an important thing and I'll give Hakeem Jeffries
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  Speaker 2: some credit here. He talked early on about pairing states,
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  Speaker 2: about Maryland saying to Missouri, like, if you're going to
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  Speaker 2: do it, we're going to do it. Indiana and Illinois,
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  Speaker 2: if you're going to do it, we're going to do it.
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  Speaker 2: Because it's a reminder to everybody that like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: this is a, you're going to, why do this with it?
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  Speaker 2: In the end, you're going to get nullified either way. So,
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  Speaker 2: so I, you know, I think it's been an effective strategy.
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  Speaker 2: And again, I don't want to change the districting in mid,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: mid decade in Illinois, but I will if, if we
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  Speaker 2: have to. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So is there any specific event that would sort of
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  Speaker 1: turn on the Illinois redistricting, like any, some, some kind
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  Speaker 1: of cheating you're talking about?
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  Speaker 2: I think I'll know it when I see it, but
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  Speaker 2: I think we're prepared. Again, it's about kind of evaluating
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: how much is democracy under threat by what Donald Trump
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  Speaker 2: is doing with regard to redistricting. And that's kind of
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  Speaker 2: the way that we're viewing it. I'm so glad that
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  Speaker 2: here in California that the redistricting referendum passed. I supported
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: it financially and supported it otherwise. And it's a I mean,
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  Speaker 2: it's a great thing because of what Texas did. But
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  Speaker 2: we tried to prevent it. As you know, we housed
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  Speaker 2: the state legislators from Texas in Illinois when they were
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: trying to break the– when they were breaking the quorum.
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  Speaker 2: And I was proud to be able to do that.
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  Speaker 2: And so, look, we're going to do what's necessary to
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  Speaker 2: protect democracy.
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  Speaker 1: So you also signed a bill into law this week
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: or last week that seeks to restrict some of the
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: more draconian immigration enforcement efforts at courthouses. And on the
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: one hand, Trump promised to go after the worst of
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the worst. When he's not doing that, it is not
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: just the right thing to do, but good politics. He's
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: not popular. Enforcement measures against people just trying to earn
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: a living. On the other hand, been in this sort
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: of political tit for tat with Trump. You know, Trump
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  Speaker 1: does this. You speak out against it rightfully. He he
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: criticizes you, threatens to throw you in jail. We end
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: up in this loop and you're fighting Trump. to do
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  Speaker 1: what's right. But it's also very reactive. You have to
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: be reactive to what Trump is doing. And I'm wondering
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: what you imagine the Democratic vision is for immigration post-Trump.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: What is our view on enforcement, the border, path to
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  Speaker 1: citizenship in a world where we're moving past him?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I suppose I shouldn't claim that I'm speaking for
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  Speaker 2: the Democratic Party when I tell you what my reaction
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: is and what we ought to do about immigration in
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  Speaker 2: the United States. I'll just speak for myself. I think
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: we should have strong borders. I think that we got to,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: you know, you don't have a country if you don't
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: have a border that you're protecting. But I also think
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  Speaker 2: that we ought to have a lot of immigration and
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  Speaker 2: we should do it where we're actually allowing into the country,
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  Speaker 2: the very people, by the way, many of them, that
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  Speaker 2: Donald Trump is now attacking and throwing out of the country.
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  Speaker 2: These are hard, I'm talking about the people who've been
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: here for five, 10, 20 years, hardworking, raising families, paying taxes,
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  Speaker 2: law abiding, right? All of those folks, and people who
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: are undocumented, right? Those are the very people you'd want
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: to have come into the country if you had a
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: proper immigration policy.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: And so we ought to fix it so that we
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  Speaker 2: actually are doing that. And giving people who are here,
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  Speaker 2: who I get, some of them, by the way, have
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: broken the law because they crossed the border without permission,
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  Speaker 2: but also some who overstayed a visa and are here undocumented,
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  Speaker 2: that we ought to have a path for those folks
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  Speaker 2: to stay. We can all have a debate about whether
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  Speaker 2: they should become citizens or legal residents or what the
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: status should be, but you don't want to throw out
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: the people who are law-abiding, tax-paying, and holding down jobs
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: and doing the right thing. What we want to do,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: I believe, is truly get violent criminals who are undocumented
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: out of this country. I absolutely believe that. I think
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: if they've been caught and they've been convicted, they should
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: be in our prisons. I don't want them released outside
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: the country as if like they're getting rewarded almost right.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: If they're caught and they're, and they're being convicted, we
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: ought to hold them in our prisons. Um, and they
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: ought to be punished. But, uh, but that's 2.6% of
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: the people who were detained in Illinois were people who
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: had committed a violent crime. 2.6%. I'm glad all of
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: them were caught. But what about the other, you know, 97.4%
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: of people that were stopped, right? So remember, and many
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: of those people also, I should point out, were U.S.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: citizens and legal residents. It wasn't just undocumented people, the
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: other 94.7%, you know. This is a huge problem of,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: you know, a breach of habeas corpus, of due process.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: And I'm very worried. This is the attack on democracy issue.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: or the beginning of the attack on democracy that I
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: think all of us should be reactive to right now.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: And our policy as Democrats ought to be, we don't
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: think you should be kidnapped off the street and disappeared.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: That you do process is very important to people and
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: that the people who should be caught and held criminally
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: liable very first and foremost are the violent criminals and
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: not people who are just doing the right thing who
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: happen to be here undocumented.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It seems like, you know, there was this, moment
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: where Democrats were trying to kind of appeal to Hispanics or, uh,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: trying to appeal to the, to the left and became
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: really uncomfortable talking about immigration enforcement or border enforcement. But
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: it does seem to me that any, if you want
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: a generous immigration policy in this country, really generous where
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: we are welcoming people to, uh, and, and, and kind
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: of building a bigger country, uh, That will be hand
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: in hand with enforcement. It has to. A secure border,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: rules that are actually enforced. Have you thought about what
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: that would look like in a world in which we've
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: watched the Trump administration turn ICE and the Border Patrol
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: into this kind of radicalized agency? Do you need to
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: start over? Do you need to rethink enforcement? What happens?
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  Speaker 2: No, the way they're doing it now is just dead wrong.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, and I believe unconstitutional. I mean marching people
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: in uniforms in automatic weapons through our major cities where
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: they're mostly just stopping people for being black and brown,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: not because they're actually undocumented or have committed crimes. That's
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: clearly something that all of us ought to stand up against.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: And we lived through that. As you know, we are
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: living through it now. It hasn't ended in Chicago, right?
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: They've diminished a few of the people. They've taken them
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: and moved them on to Charlotte and now to New Orleans.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: But I want– we should step back just for a
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: moment and remind each other and your audience why is
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: immigration important for the United States. First of all, we're
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: a nation mostly of immigrants. That is who we are
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: fundamentally at our core. And we ought to always be that.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: It's what's made our country great in many ways already. Mm-hmm.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: And I mean, I can say my own family, I
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: don't know your history, but my own family came here
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: as refugees, would have been killed in Ukraine if they
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: hadn't been allowed to come to the United States. And
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: they came with nothing. Immigrants are the most entrepreneurial. Immigrants
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: are the most grateful and patriotic because of what the
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: United States represents to them and what they had to
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: leave behind and chose to leave behind. to come to.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: And then let's face it, the economy of the United
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: States is dependent on immigrants for a variety of reasons.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you the biggest one, aside from, you know,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: people like to say, you know, well, there are jobs
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: that immigrants will take that other people. Actually, the bigger
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: reason is, you know, when you look at the Fortune 500,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: the largest companies in the United States, nearly half of
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: those companies were founded by immigrants or the first generation
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: children of immigrants. Half. So the economy of our country,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, putting aside the jobs that people will take
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: and the taxes that people pay and so on is
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: dependent about because of the entrepreneurial nature of people who
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: come to this country, grateful and, and patriotic in the
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: way that I think all of us want. Um, last
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: thing I say just about this, again, it's the economy
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: that I'm, I most want to focus on in this comment, uh,
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: You know, in a world where we've seen birth rates
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: in most developed countries drop significantly, immigration is perhaps the
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: greatest benefit that you can have for a country. But
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: when you think about all the economies that we compete
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: against in the world, and I'll pick, for example, China
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: and Japan, they don't do immigration in either of those places.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: And as their population growth diminishes— and therefore their economy diminishes,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: they really can't do what we can do. We are
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: a nation who knows immigration. You can walk down the
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: street here or in Chicago or in most places in
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: our country, you'll hear somebody speaking a language that maybe
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: you didn't recognize or with an accent that you don't
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: recognize or who don't look like you. And we all,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, most of us have come to accept that
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: that's who we are as a country. My entire life,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: I'm 60 years old. I accept this is who we are,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: not just accept, I welcome it. I think that's what
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: the United States ought to be. And we're the country
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: most able to accept immigrants and integrate them and take
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: advantage of their entrepreneurial nature. Many immigrants become, by the way,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: members of the military. So I'm just trying to point
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: out that we have a potential economic advantage in a
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: world that is fast changing and in which birth rates
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: are dropping that other of our competitor nations in the
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: world don't have. And we ought to take full advantage
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 21:01
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• 22:57
  Speaker 1: On that question of the economy, right now we've got
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: people who think Trump is failing to make life more affordable,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: his dismal approval on the economy. People have gotten the
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: impression that he's distracted by all these other issues. I
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: don't know where they're getting that impression from. But they're
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: not ready to trust Democrats. One recent poll that among
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: voters who care most about the cost of living, it's
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: still 50-50 with Republicans, in part because, yes, some of
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: the people that swung to Trump in 2024 are swinging back,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: but there's a lot of independents, especially some white moderates
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: who just don't trust the Democratic Party on this issue,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: even though it's their most important issue. What is the
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: argument we should be making? What is the story we're
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: not telling? Why are we struggling so much to make
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: an argument on affordability to people?
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Well, I believe Republicans have helped to define Democrats and
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: we've let them do it, right? That we ought to
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: be reminding everybody what fundamentally why I, for example, became
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: a Democrat. Why do we believe in the party? What
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: is it about being a Democrat that's different than being
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: a Republican? And I believe that's because we're the party
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: of the working class. It's because we're the party that
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: really believes that everybody ought to have an opportunity, not
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: just white wealthy people. And that we, you know, we
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: creating opportunity for people, creating a path for people to
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: do better in their lives and for their children to
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: do better That's who we are in the end, fundamentally.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And that when people are suffering, that the government is
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: there to create, you know, as many people have now described,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: you used to say safety net, but I would just
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: say strong floor. And I believe that the Republicans could
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: give a darn about that. And so when you talk about,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I know affordability is maybe the most important thing on
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: people's minds. I don't really like the word because I
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: don't think it describes everything that's about economics for people.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: But it is true that things have become less affordable
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: for people in part because their incomes aren't rising fast enough.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: And that's another thing I want to say is, you know,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: when we talk about affordability, we're all talking about let's
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: bring down electric rates. Let's, you know, make sure we
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: do everything we can to at least stop grocery prices
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: from going up or maybe to drop them. And Donald
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Trump's doing nothing to help. In fact, he's doing he's
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: doing the opposite. Right. Literally, tariffs have and his policy
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: on electricity has production generation has raised prices for people.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: But we also ought to be talking about putting money
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: into people's pockets. The federal minimum wage is still $ 7. 25, $ 7. 25, $ 14, 000
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: a year. You cannot survive as a single person on $ 14, 000
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: a year holding down a job. Holding two jobs, you
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: can barely survive and certainly not raising a family. two
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: jobs earning the minimum wage. Why are we holding on
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: to a $ 7. 25 minimum wage? And I want to make
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: another point to you, which is we Democrats, you never
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: heard that in 24, did you? You didn't hear anybody
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: in the 24 presidential election talking about, I'm talking about
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: the presidential candidates or really any of the major candidates
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: running for major offices around the country about let's raise
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: the minimum wage. What a huge mistake. Putting money in
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: people's pockets is the best way to make things more affordable.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: And we can all debate. We can all debate how
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: much the minimum wage ought to be. Some people would
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: say $ 11 or $ 12. Some people $ 15. Some will say $ 25.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: We can all have that debate. But if you ask
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: members of Congress who are Republicans, do you believe in
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: raising the minimum wage? Every single one of them will
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: say no. And some of them, many of them, probably 40%.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: would say, we shouldn't have a minimum wage. If you
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: ask every Democrat, should we raise the minimum wage? Every
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Democrat thinks we should raise the minimum wage. Again, they'll
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: have different opinions about how much. Why are we not
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: talking about that? Because you know what? The vast majority
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: of the American public, about 80%, thinks we ought to
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: raise the minimum wage. And we Democrats believe in that.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: We're the ones who created the minimum wage, for goodness sakes.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: So why, you asked the question, why aren't we? What
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: do you think we were missing in 2024?
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: We let the Republicans... put the issues up front, and
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: then we responded to them. That is what happened in 2024,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: and I think has happened to us too often over
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: the last decade. And that, again, we've got to remind
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: people we're the party that believes in universal healthcare, that
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: we're the ones who created Medicaid and Medicare and Social Security,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: and that we believe in protecting people's rights, their civil rights,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: their voting rights. Those are all things that are very
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: popular in the country, and that we're the party that
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: can most easily and because of our fundamental values as Democrats,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: address what I think is coming, which is a wave
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: of unemployment as a result of artificial intelligence. We're the
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: ones who are best able to and willing to come
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: up with policies to address how are people going to
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: survive in a world where perhaps there are jobs that
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: aren't available to your son or daughter that's graduating from
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: college when they thought there would be. I'll give you
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: a stat that you may not have heard, but I
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: just heard it the other day, that the unemployment rate
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: among recent college graduates has doubled from June to now. Doubled.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: And there's a reason. And you're already hearing, right, about
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: AI having an impact on hiring. I was just with
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: a group of business people listening to them, and they
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: said specifically hiring slowing down, even the ones that are growing,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: hiring slowing down because we don't need as many people
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: because of AI. This isn't going to be an issue for,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: it's not so much in 26 because I don't think
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: it's in the consciousness of most people, but I do
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: believe that in 28, it's going to be a very,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: very important issue. And we've got to ask ourselves, which
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: party is more focused on what's best for people who
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: need to find a job, best for people who are
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: going to be left out in an economy where AI
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: is going to make their jobs obsolete? Which party wants
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: to address that more? Which party more believes in that?
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: And it's Democrats. Clearly, Republicans have created this environment, aren't
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: thinking a whit about it, encouraging AI at all costs.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: By the way, I believe in AI. I think it's
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: a very good thing for efficiency. I think it's a
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: very good thing for developing new drugs, for health care,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: et cetera. I think it's something we ought to encourage,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: but we've got to figure out how we're going to
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: deal with the unemployment that may come as a result
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: of AI.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, when you say, like, you know, Democrats
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: are better suited to addressing this, I agree with you, obviously.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: But then when you mentioned healthcare, you know, I know
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: what the Democratic position is right now on, say, extending
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Obamacare subsidies. But I often feel as though I know
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: where the left wing of the party is on a
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: lot of these issues in terms of a vision for
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: the future. I know what Mamdani believes. I know what
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders and AOC believes. they're very clear about what
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: they'd want to do about healthcare. I often feel like
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: the people outside of the left flank aren't clear about
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: what their vision is for a better healthcare system, aren't
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: clear about what we would do about AI. They criticize it,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: but like, I'm just, okay, we're going to have a
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: bunch of people who might not be getting entry-level jobs
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: because people are able to use a big language model
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: to do that job and say, what do we do?
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Like what, what, what's the, what, what happens? What's, what's
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: the value, you know, to have all the answers, but
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: what are we going to do? Millions of young people,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: suddenly entry-level jobs are disappearing. What happens?
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Well, again, I start with which party is more capable
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: of addressing it. And then I'll go to, I'll just,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: I'll just throw some ideas that have been, that have
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: been out there for a while. I'm not suggesting one
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: or another yet about what we ought to do. And,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: you know, we're thinking about it certainly on the state
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: level as governor of Illinois. But I'll give you an example.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: You heard, you know, before Elon Musk became a, you know, a,
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know, a populist right-wing selfish, you know, player,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: he talked a lot about universal basic income. That's one
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: answer to a question like this. What are you going
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: to do when people are unemployed and how are they
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: going to survive in a world where there's so much
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: efficiency that they don't need workers? Another is, you know,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: I believe in the dignity of work and how important
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: that is to people. Uh, and that, you know, there
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: was a time when, um, in the days of FDR,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: when we had to put people to work and there
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: were programs that were hugely beneficial, were still benefiting in
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: many ways from the things that they were doing in
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: the works progress administration, uh, back in the thirties, uh,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: to come out of the great depression. Uh, But, you know,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: the question is, like, do we want to build more infrastructure?
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: If so, shouldn't we be doing something to make sure
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: we're bringing more people into trades and giving them the
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: education that's required for that and building that infrastructure? This
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: is not just a Biden infrastructure, you know, program kind
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: of discussion. This is like, do we actually have the
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: ability to execute on those projects? And do we have
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: the people who can build them? And the government needs
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: to speed it up for goodness sakes, right? We got
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: to deliver on jobs to people and their incomes associated
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: with the dignity of that work. So those are two
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: examples of ways that one can address AI. I also
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: think that there's an entrepreneurial bent that comes from new
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: technology whenever it's introduced. We saw this in a lot
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: of worry about the introduction of the internet way back when.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: You may not remember it, but I do. I remember.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Based on your age.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: That's very sweet of you to say.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: But a lot of worry, right? And yet you saw
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of entrepreneurial endeavors that led to job creation
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: as a result of the advent of the internet, even
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: though people are like, oh my God, the shops are
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: going to close and everything's going to change and what
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: are going to happen to the job. AI has the
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: potential to give us that, except it's hyper-efficient and it's
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: happening way faster than the internet did. Yeah. And so, again,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: that dislocation is what I think we all need to
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: be focused on about how to address it. But, you know,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: we're not going to stop AI. We can't stop it
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: and shouldn't. We're not going to become Luddites so that
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: we can keep people, give them jobs. Because, by the way,
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: we live in an international economy. We're competing internationally. China's
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: not going to stop the development of AI.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I just want to say no bad ideas in a brainstorm.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. Let's put the, let's have the
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Luddite option, Luddite option on the table. I'm just like, well,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: you know, I think, look, you're threatening Indiana to make
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: sure they don't do, don't do gerrymandering. I'm saying a
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: couple of pitchforks outside of, of Sam Altman's offices once
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: in a while might just, no, just saying, Hey, we're here. Hey,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: just keep an eye on that.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: I thought that's what Dario's doing. So I, you know, anyway, I,
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I do think that, that this is something that's, that again,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: it isn't that Democrats have the policy and so on.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: And I would also point out, I do not, you know,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: being a Democrat is being part of a club of
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: people who have similar sets of values, right? Just like
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: it's being a Republican. But I also think that there
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: are entrepreneurs within those clubs, so to speak, within the
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: parties who emerge with ideas that will make a difference
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: and that become the party's policy, right? Because they're good
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: ideas and because they believe that person can carry them out.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: And that's why, you know, a lot of times as
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: people have expressed, as you did a little earlier, dismay about,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: you know, why are Democrats not viewed as having your,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: why are Democrats not succeeding? And what's our policy that
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: what's our new set of, of our new message and
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: our new policy. And, you know, and I'm all for
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: like contemplating that all the time, always making it better
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: and better, but The failure that we've had is not
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: that we haven't had good policies. It's that we've let
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: the Republicans throw issues in front of us. And then
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: we run into a corner chasing that issue, trying to
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: defend ourselves about that issue when we should be sticking
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: to our guns about what we think is important. And
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: I'll again go back to the minimum wage. Nobody talked
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: about that. Why are we not putting that out front
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: and fighting for a higher minimum?
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: What's the most signal? What's the best example of that
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: kind of chasing Republican? What comes to your mind? If
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: I need an example of that, this is where I
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: think we got that wrong.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll give a couple examples. One is this idea
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: that Mamdani is the future of the Democratic Party. All
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: due respect to Democratic socialists. And I respect the campaign
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: that he ran in New York just as a technician,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: you know. I mean, the politics of his campaign were
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: kind of amazing. But he didn't win because he's a
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: democratic socialist, if you ask me. He ran because, you know,
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: the opposition to that, at least among Democrats, was somebody
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: who's hyper flawed. Yeah. You know, and didn't, you know,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: and even if you thought, well, those are traditional democratic
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: values that he held, not somebody who has been accused
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: of sexual assault and, you know, someone who's got the
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: reputation that he had. And so, you know, like that
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: is that is even, you know, whatever your views are
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: within the Democratic Party, you have to admire the idea
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: that Mamdani ran a really, really good campaign and his
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: opposition was incredibly flawed. So I think, you know, we
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: kind of we get stuck. Now, Mamdani is like, oh,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: that's who Democrats are. And I remind every even Democrats that.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: are worried, you know, like there are Democrats in the
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: center left, right, who worry that the party is now Mamdani.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Our party has always been a pretty broad spectrum, always, always.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: I know that Bernie Sanders really made it, you know,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: stark for everybody to pay attention to, and Democratic socialists
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: have made it stark, but it's always been there. And
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: the reality is that we are always trying to bridge,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: just like on the Republican side, they have typically, now
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: they're in a cult, But typically, they've had the same
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: kind of division, right? You've had what used to be
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: called the country club economic Republicans, and you had the
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: cultural conservative Republicans, and they would fight it out with
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: one another because they had slightly different beliefs. Same thing
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: on the Democratic side. But we have a fundamental set
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: of values that I think are very common from one
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: end of the spectrum to the other. And I think
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: it doesn't—our divisions are no different, really, than they ever
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: have been, and I don't think we should let the
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Republicans— you know, remember the same day that Mamdani got elected,
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Abigail Spanberger got elected and Mikey Sherrill got elected. And
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: I would not describe them as being from the same
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: wing of the party, let's say, as Mamdani. But we
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: let somehow, we let the Republicans voice this thing on
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: us and then everybody's reacting to it. That's an example. And,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: you know, you could give other examples. Certainly the Republicans
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: like to talk about trans athletes. And I want to
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: be clear, in Illinois, we have about 320,000 children, kids
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: who are athletes. There are three trans athletes that have
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: been identified in Illinois out of 300 and some thousand.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I believe that we should stand up for the civil
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: rights of every trans person, every trans kid. But are
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: we really going to let the Republicans, you know, make
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: this like the number one issue that Democrats are talking about?
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: And I do feel like that's what, that's part of
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: what happened. Um, And we shouldn't. We should stand on
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: the principle that we believe in civil rights. We are
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: the party of civil rights and stand up for the
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: rights of people who are being put upon by the Republicans.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: That's how we should talk about that issue. And we
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: should not be, you know, chasing after the, you know, the, well,
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: what would you do if, you know, this bathroom or whether,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: you know, and this team and so on. We get
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: lost in the issues they put in front of us,
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: you know, as if like, oh, there's a shiny object.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Let's go over there. We're not silverfish. you know, we
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: should go our own way.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: This podcast is sponsored by UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency.
• 39:25
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• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Donate at unrefugees.org slash pod. You know, you brought up
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: the sort of the Mamdani spam burger divide. And I
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: think one reason that is exciting for people is to
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: kind of It represents sort of a clear vision, as
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: we were talking about a moment ago. And I remember,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: you know, when I was coming up in politics, there
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: were sort of interesting visions for the future that were
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: kind of being wrestled with in the Democratic coalition. Bill
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Clinton had like a fully-fledged ideology when he was running
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: out of Arkansas. And it wasn't from the left. It
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: was this more kind of moderate, neoliberal way of addressing
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: our problems. But it was fully-fledged. like it was it
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: had thought through some of the hard questions and You
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: know Barack Obama runs in 2008 he runs against Washington.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: He doesn't really run from the left. He runs against corruption.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: He runs against the establishment Do you feel like right
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: now there is kind of a missing? vision that is
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: not a vision from the left like I know recently
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: a you came out against a head tax in Chicago.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: This is a tax on big corporations.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Jobs.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Well, it's a tax on every job for a big
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: corporation in the state to raise revenue.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: And you came out against that.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: And medium-sized corporations. And so you came out against that.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: It's not fun as a Democrat to come out against
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: a tax on big business, but you did. And I'm
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: just wondering if there's a larger story you want to
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: tell about what you think the democratic party should stand for.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: That's just being thoughtful about economic growth. You know, that does,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: it's not thoughtful to say we're going to tax people
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: for creating jobs. You know, that doesn't seem smart to me, right?
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: It's a message. It's a message that you're sending to businesses.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: We don't want you to grow. We don't want you
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: to come here with your jobs because we're going to
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: tax you on the jobs itself. So that, that's why
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I'm opposed to the, to the head tax. I mean, Listen,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: I advocate for a graduated income tax in a state
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: that has a flat tax and push very hard to
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: get a constitutional amendment, which is what's required in Illinois
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: to get that done. Very hard. I mean, I put
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: my own personal money in. I ran on it. You know,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: so nobody can say that I'm somebody who's like, you know,
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: just trying to save the medium and large size corporations
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: or something like I really believe that we got to
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: pay our bills. And that the people who are most
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: capable of providing the revenue to do that are the
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: ones who should step up to the plate and we
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: should require that. So, you know, I'm not going to,
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: you know, head down some alley about, you know, the
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: wings of the party when I talk about that. I
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: think that we all, I balanced the budget in Illinois
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: after 25 years of nobody balancing the budget, right? And
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: why is that important? Because I want to make sure
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: we have the money to pay for the programs that
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: I think are so important for our state, whether it's
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: healthcare or education or something. which Illinois was just going
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: down the tubes. It was the education funding was going
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: down and down and down as a percentage from the
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: state of paying for education. And the portion that was
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: required of locals, property taxes was going up and up
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: and up. So property taxes are going through the roof
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: for everybody. And the state is stepping out of education
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: over the years. That doesn't make any sense at all.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: We're the worst funding state for education. When I came
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: in office, 24% of education funding was coming from the state.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: The average state in the United States, 46% comes from
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: the state. We were the worst. Now we're at about 40.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: We're getting better. I've been working on that ever since
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I took office. But I really don't think, I mean,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: I understand the question you're asking. I don't think you
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: have to make the choice that you're describing to I
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: would look at Bill Clinton, your example of Bill Clinton
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: and Barack Obama, just to say this important thing about
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: election cycles. And that is the message of a party
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: is typically determined by the candidate in the presidential election
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: who we choose. And that is the message of the party, right?
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying there can't be different views than that person.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying you picked those two examples because they
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: won the nominations and they won the presidency and they
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: were had a philosophy and they care. Everybody in, I
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: think everybody in politics, maybe there are people who, okay,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: not everybody. Fair enough. But I mean, most people, and
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: I think of myself anyway, I'm in this because I
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: have a belief about what we ought to be as
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Democrats and I'm trying to carry it out in office.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: And I believe that candidates, that the message of the
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: party is not determined by you, me, and, you know,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: 50 other people getting in a room. And then, you know,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: and then when we're all done, we're going to puff
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: a smoke and we come out with the 10 commandments
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: or whatever, you know, um, uh, or the new Pope, right? What, what,
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: what we do as Democrats in midterm elections is we,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: we fight like hell in particular. This is a lot
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: like the 2018 elections in my view in 26, um,
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: which is, you know, we point at the guys who
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: are in charge on the other side and say, my God, Boy,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: do we need change, right? And everybody's running in their
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: various districts and their states on what's important in those states.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Then you get to a presidential election and we choose
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: somebody to represent the party who represents the views that
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: we want to carry forward. Typically, it's a combination of
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: we like the person and we like the views. And
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: that's what's going to happen in 28. It didn't really
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: happen in 24. For a variety of reasons. And I,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: you know, it's not like pointing fingers.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: One, one, one big reason.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Right. But I mean, I'm saying there were features of
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: the reason, right? I mean, Joe Biden decided to run
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: for reelection and then 107 days, you know, before dropped out.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: And I, again, not to point fingers or blame or anything,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: but the reality is I haven't seen that happen in
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: my lifetime. Have you? So, and it's, and it's very difficult.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Primary systems, you know, they're, They're painful. They're difficult. If
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: you're in them, I've been in a primary myself, very
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: difficult running against people who you mostly agree with and
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: have to differentiate yourself. And then, you know, but, but
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: we go through presidential primaries in the United States where we,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: you know, we get to see these people over a
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: period of time in various circumstances about various issues, right.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: Competing with one another. And eventually we narrow it down,
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: narrow it down, and then somebody gets picked. Maybe it
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: wasn't everybody's first pick. But in the end, we get
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: comfortable with the person who gets picked and their views.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: We understand what their views are, and we've all come
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: to either compromise to agree with those views or already
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: agreed with them. Didn't happen in 24. And so we
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: don't have like the consensus that typically comes out of
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: a presidential election in our party. And instead, we still
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: have the fundamental values of the party, but not the specific.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: You just described Bill Clinton, for example. I would not
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: describe it. I mean, I know he was moderate in
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: the traditional sense of democratic moderate, right? Pro-choice, pro-civil rights.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, somebody was fighting. I mean, he's beloved in
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: the black community. You know, he started out with like
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of cred who also had some views that weren't,
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: you know, he was like he had his sister soldier moment.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: By the way, this is 30 years. I'm just sort
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: of describing what I think is sort of like. all
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: different ways in which we, a party is coalesced around
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: different visions for the future.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And we, we just haven't, we missed it. We're
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: moment we're in, we didn't have that. And so we did,
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: that's the moment we're in, but we're going to see
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: it again.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: One more thing I can be mad about Biden for.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: So thank you for reminding me of that. So you're
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: an interesting person to me. And one reason I was,
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of Democrats who just seem like
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: they don't know how to talk to people. They just, they're,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: They're people that kind of front of the classroom kids
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: did well on their tests. They went to the good
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: law schools. They've had an image of themselves in politics
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: for a long time. Always imagined themselves in this kind
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: of world, very ambitious. And you can see it on them.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: You can smell it on them. And just to be honest,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: I don't get that from you. And Maybe you're just
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: really good at hiding it, but I don't get it
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: from you. And it's interesting because if I were to
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: have a bunch of Democrats in front of me, I
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have picked you as the one who's one of
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: the richest human beings in American politics. A billionaire grew
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: up as part of this extremely wealthy family. And at
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: the same time, you had this privilege. You also lost
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: your father at a very young age. Ten years later,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: you lose your mother to alcoholism. And I'm wondering how
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: that tension between the privilege of your childhood and the
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: pain in your childhood has informed your politics.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I should start by saying that, you know, when
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: you're a child, you're not directing anything really in your life.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Things are happening to you, right? You're fortunate to have
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: two parents or you're unfortunate to have lost your parents.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Somebody's ill in your family. Things happen to you when
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: you're a child and they imprint on you. especially at
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: an early age. And that's one of the reasons, by
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: the way, long before I became governor, that I've been
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: involved in early childhood development and early childhood education. Because
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: I believe that much of who you are today, you, me, everybody,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: is determined really before you're age five. And your brain development,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: your reactivity to the things that happen in the world,
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: happens in those various earliest stages of life. And I
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: believe that that's true of me, like things that I
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: experienced in early days of my life have imprinted on me.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: I can look back on it. I didn't know at
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: the time that those things were happening to me. I'm just,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: you know, when people ask how did you end up
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: this way or that way, you know, you think back
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: on experiences in your life that have directed you in
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: a certain way. And my parents had very strong fundamental values.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: you know, in the political world, they were democratic values,
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: but they're about social justice. And so those things, of course,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: imprint on me like they do on lots of people,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: but also the experiences that you described of losing family
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: members and living through taking care of my mother when
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: she wasn't well and, you know, bonding together with my
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: siblings when, you know, we were dealing with this ourselves. But,
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: you know, the important thing is, to me anyway, when
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: I think back on all that, And, and also, you know,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: where I am today and what I do today, I
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: think my mother, when she was well, was a democratic activist.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, and I'm talking about, she was an LGBTQ activist.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: She was not LGBTQ, but she was an activist because
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: she believed in standing up for those rights. This is
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: the seventies and sixties. I mean, I was too young
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: in the sixties to remember, but, but when I was
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: old enough to, to recognize it in the seventies anyway,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: and you know, when I was eight, nine, 10, 11 years,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: years old, uh, that she was taking me with her
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: to meetings, to rallies, to marches. And all that stuff
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: was probably imprinting on me.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: And I sometimes say, I'm not sure if it was
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: nature or nurture, but whatever it was, those things I
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: still think about today. Like when I signed the reproductive
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: health act, which guarantees a woman's right to choose in
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: the state of Illinois, which many people may not believe
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: because they think Illinois is a blue state, you know, uh,
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: but abortion was at risk in the state of Illinois. And, and,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: I got to sign the law that really guarantees that right. Uh,
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: LGBTQ rights, not at all guaranteed and standing up for
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: civil rights rights. When those things came before, when I
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: was fighting for them in the legislature and when they
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: came to my desk, you know, and I thought about
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: like the history that we're making, I was thinking about
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: my mother and it's not just on those issues, but
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: it's the idea that, you know, standing up for people
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: who aren't like you, but whose rights are being infringed upon, um, is,
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: who I am. I mean, you, you know, in many
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: ways we are a product of where we came from.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: I'm a, my family is a family of refugees from
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: the Ukraine and we had nothing. And when I think
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: today about ice and CBP marching through the streets of
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: Chicago and grabbing people because of the color of their
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: skin and throwing people out of the country who are
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: just working hard and trying to play by the rules,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: I think about my own family and how I should
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: react to it. I helped to build a Holocaust museum
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: because I believe that everybody should understand that. And that
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: also being around Holocaust survivors has informed how I react
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: to Donald Trump and to what the Trump administration is doing.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting that we're heading toward a Holocaust. I'm suggesting, though,
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: that at least the most familiar authoritarian regime to me,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: because I spent so much time around it, studying the
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: Holocaust and then implementing, building a Holocaust museum is that.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: And I'm saying, so when I, some of this stuff
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: is instinctual for me. It's not like, you know, well,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: I sat down and thought about, you know, each individual thing.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, I do think about it, but I also
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: think like I'm instinctually for protecting people's individual rights and
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: making sure that everybody has an opportunity to succeed because
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: that's kind of where I came from. It's bad.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: You took it to policy and I appreciate that. And
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: maybe this is too psychological, but there are a lot
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: of people that have come from wealth and they have
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: this chip on their shoulder. Donald Trump is like that.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk is like that. The Koch brothers are like that.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: And you've talked beautifully about how your mother shaped your worldview,
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: but I also can't help but wonder if you hadn't
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: had the pain you had as a young person that
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: you'd be more of an asshole. And, but, but seriously,
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you've like thought about the ways in
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: which like their experiences you haven't had, you have all,
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: you knew what it was. You didn't have to worry
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: about where your next meal was coming from. You never
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: had to worry about that kind of thing. But at
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: the same time, you did have to take care of
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: your mother as a kid in a way that a
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: lot of that's hard, that forces a kid to grow up.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: And I just, I I'm curious about that aspect and
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: not what you've learned from your mother, but what you experience.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Okay. I, and I would just say that this is
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: about values. It's not about money. I don't think you're,
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I do think, again, you get shaped by
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: your experiences and whether you grew up having things or
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: not having things, right. I mean, all those experiences that
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: you have as a result of that circumstance, right. Shape
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: you in a way, but in the end, right. The, the,
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: your beliefs about whether we ought to have a snap
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: program that actually feeds hungry people. Right. And whether we
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: ought to have universally available health care, like your beliefs
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: about those things aren't, aren't, I mean, I believe they
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: don't have to be defined by the fact that you
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: have or don't have money. Like, how about just the
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: value of a human life and how you're going to
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: react to people's pain? And, you know, just like it,
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: maybe you could say religion would shape your, it's another way.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Think your life experiences, your parents, You know, and your religion.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: All those things, I think, come together. And I know
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: what you're asking, but I don't know. I mean, I
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: don't evaluate every aspect of, like, how did I come
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: to this conclusion in life or, you know, belief about
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: people's rights or standing up for people who are most
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: in pain or most vulnerable. I think this is how
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: you end up. And I can't explain why Elon Musk
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: is the way he is. I can't.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think anybody can.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: And I don't think anybody can explain really what's wrong
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: with Donald Trump. There is something wrong. Um, but, but
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: I can't explain exactly what happened in his life that
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: led him where he is. He's just that way. And
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: I would argue that goes back to the point I
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: made a little bit earlier, which is the, sometimes the
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: things that happen very early in your life, which are,
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: which don't seem related to your views and so on
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: are actually the things that are dictating your views. They
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: don't seem like it. Like if you've lived in a
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: traumatic environment growing up, that, that trauma, whatever caused it.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: That trauma has an impact on how you react to
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: things during your life. And you can see it. There
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: are brain scans that have been done, studies of brain
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: scans that show that your brain developed differently if you
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: grew up in a trauma-filled environment versus one that isn't.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: And all I'm saying is I don't think it's easy
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: to figure out how I ended up or you ended
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: up the way that we are. It's not easy to
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: figure all those things out. I'll just say it isn't
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: about money. I know people want to look at me
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: and say, well, gee, that's a feature that we want
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: to talk about because it's unusual, the fact that I
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: have money. I think it's sure it's one of many
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: features that I think have shaped me, but everybody with
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: money doesn't have the same values. Right.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: Well, that's exactly, I think, what I'm getting at about it.
• 57:32
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• 59:30
  Speaker 1: You brought up trauma. A lot of people were traumatized
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: by your Star Wars rankings.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Which one do you disagree with?
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: I will just say, first of all, I just want
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: to say, I was impressed. I want to start out
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: by saying that I was impressed. I'm just going to
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: give people the order. Number one, Empire Strikes Back. Number two,
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: A New Hope. three, Return of the Jedi, four, Rogue One.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: I didn't say New Hope, by the way. You did.
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: I did.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: I know you put Star Wars 1977.
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: I changed it to New Hope.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: That's what it was called.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: I know. Well, I'm older than you are. I remember
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: when it came out.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: I'm listening. I'm appreciating our difference. Last Jedi before Revenge
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: of the Sith, Revenge of the Sith and Force Awakens,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: then Solo, Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, The Rise
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: of Skywalker. I have some quibbles, but first of all,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: I want to applaud you for two things in this list. One,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: having Revenge of the Sith above Force Awakens, Solo, some
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: of these other films. I will say.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: You disagree with that. I.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: I think that we... At some point, America will be
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: ready for a politician who will admit that Rogue One
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: is a better film than Return of the Jedi.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, I want to say... It's funny you say this,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: because Rogue One, I think, was a terrific film. I do.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: And it was so out of the blue in a way, right,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: because it was, I think, the first one that wasn't
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: in the, you know, whether it was a prequel or not.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: And I thought it was a terrific film. And so
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: it is hard to put it in order because, you know,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: when you're thinking about the timeline, I guess, right, it's
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: somehow like separated from all of them. But I really
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: enjoyed the film and I'm, you know, I just, yeah,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: this is where I end up and I'm a, I'm
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: a bit of a, I'm a space nerd and I'm a,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm also a, you know, a, you know,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: the sci-fi in general. I'm also, you know, this is
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: going to maybe disturb you in some way, which is,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: I'm a Star Trek fan too. Yeah, of course. Right.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: Meet me too. But there are people who choose between
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: the two. I don't know how they do because, I mean,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: they're just completely different.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: It's a false choice, and I don't think we should
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: follow those people down.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: And nobody ever makes a list. I don't think people
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: make a list of their Star Wars movies because there's
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: a bunch of bad ones.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: The Star Trek movies.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Star Trek, sorry. The Star Trek movies, thank you. There's
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: a bunch of bad ones. But I have to say,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: the beginning of the new Star Trek, I thought that
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: was a terrific film. That may be my favorite among...
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: All of the Star Trek films.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's ridiculous.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: So, do you have a favorite of the original, of
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: the films? I have a favorite.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: What's your favorite of the original films?
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: I want you to tell me first. I'm the interviewer here.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: What's your favorite?
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: It was not the first one.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: No, no.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: I'm saying it was not the first Star Trek.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: No, no, no. Largely view, there's the even-odd thing where
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: the even-numbered.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: Films were great. The even-numbered films are great.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: And the odds were a missus.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So which of yours? I actually agree with that.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: And I loved the second.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Rat the Con is great.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. That really, that was, I think it was
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: the best. I did not like the one. that Picard,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: where Picard got introduced, I can't remember which one that was. Generations. Generations, yeah.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Which is technically an odd number. So my, look, people
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: say Rathacon is the best. I don't agree. I think
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: it's actually Undiscovered Country, Star Trek VI.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: Wait, is this the whales?
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: No, whales is four, which is also great. You don't
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: like the whales.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I know. Oh, come on. By the way,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: I differ. I have a text chain with some other
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: space nerds.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, really?
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: And we disagree about this. People love it.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, what's, what are they? I really, really pitch
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: to that chain. that Undiscovered Country is an underrated.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: Great film. Now I'm going to go rewatch it. It's
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: been a little while.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: It's about diplomacy. It's about diplomacy. It's not about a war.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: It's about using war. It's about peace. And it's a
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: hard movie about reconciliation.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: I'm going to start a podcast where we have this conversation.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: I like that idea.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: I like it too.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: Any other sci-fi that's like, what stands out to you?
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: What are the stories? If you're a sci-fi nerd, what
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: do you love? What have you gone back to? What
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: are your favorites from growing up?
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll just say that the Andor series I really
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: have enjoyed.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Andor's incredible.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: And I didn't like, and this is controversial too, The Mandalorian.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: I just didn't like it. I don't know why. There
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: was something about it. I gave up.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: I gave up.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, but Star Wars has the whole
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: bunch of, whether it's series or movies, is a hodgepodge. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: And I think it kind of went downhill with some
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: of them. But Andor kind of brought me back, I
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: have to say.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: Andor is extraordinary. And well, it's interesting because, you know,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: you've been unabashed in making the, you know, well, with
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: all the appropriate caveats talking about the ways in which
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: this moment resonates with what was happening in Germany in
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: the 30s. And people have been very critical of you
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: for doing that. But I found Andor really moving in
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: part in ways I was surprised because of how much
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: it feels like it is about what's happening right now.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how you– like what you thought about Andor.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: That's exactly– and I– by the way, I'm not– there's
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: no parallel to the kind of the rebel war. that
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: was clearly the rebellion that was going on. I mean,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be peacefully protesting. I wanna
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: make that clear. And I've advocated for peaceful protest.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: It's very funny in a Star Wars conversation to have
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: to make a caveat that you're not suggesting people take
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: on the exact style of the resistance on these fictional planets.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: Because they don't, hey, one thing, just these places aren't real.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: You're making fun of me now. No, I'm not. But
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: I just don't want anybody to misunderstand that. Like when
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: I talk about the Holocaust, when I talk about it,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: I do think that there is resistance, you know, that
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: isn't the kind of physical or dangerous resistance. There is the,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: you know, a kind of resistance, as you know, where
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: people can stand up, speak out and have an effect.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: And I believe that that can happen now and is
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: happening now. I might add, because just to go back
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: to what's been happening in Chicago, people protesting in Chicago,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: it's made a huge difference. And I think it's changed policy.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: And people sometimes don't think that their protesting will matter.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: But people came out of the woodwork. Just to point out,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: I like to use as my example of how people
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: really took this to heart. you can't find a whistle
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: to buy in Chicago right now because people went and
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: bought whistles because people who never protested before, and they
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: don't want to go stand with a bunch of other
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: people and hold signs and yell things, but they do
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: want to protect their neighbors. And so they, and having
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: a whistle and blowing the whistle, when you see ice
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: in an un, you know, in an unmarked vehicle, people
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: wearing masks going after their neighbors are upset and they
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: don't know what to do. And the easiest, simplest way
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: that people could act was to stand up and, blow
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: the whistle. And I get it. There are some people
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: that are shy. Some people, you know, don't want to
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: be confrontational, but the whistle feels to many people like
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: a way for them to protest. And it's an indicator
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: to me, the number of people I'm talking about in
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: quiet suburban neighborhoods who did it. And I know you're,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: we went from Star Wars to this.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: I'm glad we should. That's good.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: That's, I like that. But this is, to me, you know,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: this is like, it's what I, it's, to me, the
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: United States is going to be saved from Donald Trump
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: because of those people. because people are willing to break
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: out of their day-to-day lives. And as hard as people...
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: Politics doesn't have a role in most people's lives, to
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: be honest, right? But they know when the rights of
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: their neighbors are being infringed upon. They understand when the
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: tenor of the country is changing in a way that
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: they don't like, and people do react, and are reacting,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: and I'm seeing it now in a way that... I
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: don't know when I've seen before in my lifetime. I mean,
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: when I was very young, of course, protests in the
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: 60s and early 70s about the war. But this is,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: you know, it's personal to people. This is very personal
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: to people who never protested before in their lives.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: It's funny that that's where your mind went from, Andor,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: because I understand. No, but I understand because there is something,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: you're watching this fictionalized, this mythical place, this mythical place
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: that we love from movies and these characters. And then
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: you see what feels like what you've never seen in
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: Star Wars before, which is the ordinary people living under
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: the yoke of this authoritarian government. And then you see
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: how the people doing whatever small thing they can. They're
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: not just fighting for each other. They're fighting against, in
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: the end, the ways in which that empire hurts everybody,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: including the people that are part of it.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give you my, you know, kind of
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: real life analogy. When I was 23, I think, I
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: went with a group of people with an organization called
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: the American Council of Young Political Leaders. I don't know
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: if you've heard of this, but anyway, it's more prominent
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: way back when. And they would take young political leaders
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: from the United States, people, you know, state reps or
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: working for congressmen or senators, those kinds of folks, right?
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: Not highfalutin well-known folks. But I was 23, I got
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: invited to be part of it. And they would take
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: people from other countries and bring them here, and we
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: would learn about each other's political systems. And I got
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: invited and went on a trip that was to Argentina
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: and Uruguay. And with this group, half Democrats, half Republicans,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: about eight, nine of us, landed in Buenos Aires. And
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: we landed and there was a military coup. I was
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: 23 years old and we're supposed to be learning about,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: it was a democracy at the time, right? And military coup.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: And we're learning about democracy. Like all of a sudden
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: we're in the middle of a military coup and we
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: headed to the place we were staying and we had
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: to make a decision. Are we going to go out
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: in the streets and rally with the democracy advocates out
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: in the streets? And, you know, cause there was going
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: to be a democracy rally the next day. Do we
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: want to do that? Or do, should we go to
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: the embassy and wait it out? And we took a vote.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: All the Republicans voted to go to the embassy. All
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: the Democrats voted to go out in the streets. I
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: give this, tell you this to, to lead to this.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: We got, we all agreed that we're going to go
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: finally to, to the democracy rally. We got up kind
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: of a perch up on some stairs. This is in
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: the Plaza de Mayo in Buenos Aires. And there were
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of people entering there, about eight roads
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: that head into the Plaza de Mayo and people with
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: signs and people yelling and there were loudspeakers and parties
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: coming in on each of the roads and so on.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: And in the middle of all that was a guy
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: with a cart selling popsicles and ice cream. I mean,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: people are yelling and screaming and demanding democracy. And here's
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: a guy in the middle of it selling ice cream.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: You know, I looked at that and I genuinely took
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: a lesson from that, which is, you know, the type
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: of political system that you live in and hyper important,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: but sometimes it's just about feeding your family and paying
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: the bills. And it, it doesn't in many ways, it
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: sometimes doesn't matter to people what the system is, if
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: it isn't directly affecting them, who's in charge, if they
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: can put food on the table, that's what really matters.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: And I reminded of that in this moment that we're
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: living in as Democrats, that we have to remember that
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: what really matters to people is not the offensive things
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: that Donald Trump is saying, and even democracy as a
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: broad topic, which I am fighting for, but that this
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: issue that people say, oh, it's an issue, affordability, but
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: this idea that you can't afford to pay your rent
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: or this idea that you can't afford to buy your
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: groceries and feed your family or make enough money to
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: do those things, those are the things that we ought
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: to be focusing. That's how you win elections. is addressing
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: the real problems that people face every single day. Meanwhile,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: those of us who are paying close attention to the
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: type of political system, because we understand that over the
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: long haul, it's going to really matter to people whether
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: we still have a democracy. We've got to go fight
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: for it, but we also, in order to win elections,
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: we've got to focus on the things that that guy
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: with the ice cream cart was focused on.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: So I think that's a really great place to leave it.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: But before we go, I would be remiss to not
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: mention the fact that you came forward having declared $ 1. 4
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: million in winnings from Blackjack in Las Vegas. I think
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: that's awesome. I am actually disappointed that you felt cowed
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: into donating it to charity. I think you should have
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: kept every dollar of it. Those are your fucking winnings.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: You went to Vegas. What's the point of going to
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: Vegas if you can't keep anything? If you lose, they
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: get the money. You win, you don't get anything. You
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: didn't get a stake for yourself.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: That sucks.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: I'd like to quiz you on some blackjack hands.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: Oh my God.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: So now I'm assuming you're in a room where the
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: stakes are pretty high. So I'm assuming you're playing against.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: They got high because I was winning. I was using
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: the house's money. So it was like, great. You know,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: it was easy at some point because you're using house money.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: But are we standing against the soft seven? Is the
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: dealer standing on soft 17 or hitting on soft 17?
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: The dealer is standing on soft 17.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: So that's a good room. That's a good room. All right.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: You got two fives against a nine.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: What are you doing? you're doubling down.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: That's correct.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: What do you mean correct?
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: The card, I'm going on the card.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: I get it.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: I'm going on the card.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: Like the book.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: The book, I'm going on the book. I'm seeing how
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: you're doing against the book.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: I hear you, I understand that.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: I grew up, I come from a long line of gamblers.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: People who go by the book? Well, you gotta know
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: the book to fight. You can't leave the book behind
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: until you know the book. I come from a long
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: line of horse gamblers.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: But not true about a, by the way, a nine against,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: you know, five and a four against an eight, for example.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: Not true. You would not double down.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: No, well, how about a pair of nines against a six?
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: Are you splitting or are you standing?
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: That's a great question. I would split because I think
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: a six is a dead loser.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: Well, so the book says stand.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: Well, obviously, you know, just because you go by the
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: book doesn't mean the rest of us have to.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: And so if you have a pair of twos against
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: an eight, are you running for president? Hmm.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: I'm forgetting a 7 and then a 10 is what
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: I'm hoping for. That's smart.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: You've got to make your own luck. Being lucky is smart.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: Governor J.B. Pritzker, thank you so much for your time.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: Good to talk to you. Thanks, John.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:14:13
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