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The Martin Family Pt. Two · The Path Went Chilly

0:30
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two
0:33
Speaker 1: of our series about the disappearance of the Martin family. Robin,
0:37
Speaker 1: do you want to catch everyone up on what we
0:38
Speaker 1: talked about in our previous episode.
0:40
Speaker 2: Well, this case takes place in Oregon in December of
0:43
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight, involving a family called the Martins who
0:46
Speaker 2: live in Portland. The father, Kenneth, is fifty four years old.
0:49
Speaker 2: He has a forty eight year old wife named Barbara,
0:51
Speaker 2: and they have three daughters, fourteen year old Barbie, twelve
0:55
Speaker 2: year old Virginia, and a ten year old Susan. And
0:58
Speaker 2: they also have a twenty eight year old Sunday Donald,
1:00
Speaker 2: who was living across the country in New York because
1:03
Speaker 2: he's serving in the Navy. Well, one day they left
1:06
Speaker 2: on a road trip in their station wagon to try,
1:08
Speaker 2: presumably to get a Christmas tree. They were last seen
1:11
Speaker 2: eating at a diner about sixty miles away from their
1:14
Speaker 2: home and were seen leaving, but they'd never returned home
1:18
Speaker 2: and a missing person's investigation would be launched, and it
1:21
Speaker 2: would not be until several months later when a barge
1:24
Speaker 2: caught rappling hook on an object at the bottom of
1:27
Speaker 2: the river and in the Columbia River, and it was
1:30
Speaker 2: only a few days later when the bodies of Virginia
1:32
Speaker 2: and Susan were found floating, so it seemed likely that
1:36
Speaker 2: this barge had gotten caught on the downstation wagon and
1:39
Speaker 2: managed to jar the bodies of Virginia and Susan loose,
1:43
Speaker 2: but the station wagon itself and the three other missing
1:46
Speaker 2: victims have still never been found. They were unable to
1:49
Speaker 2: determine the exact cause of death for the two girls,
1:51
Speaker 2: but it was presumed to be drowning, but there would
1:54
Speaker 2: be a lot of strange stuff to suggest that foul
1:56
Speaker 2: play may have taken place. They found a bloody gun
1:59
Speaker 2: near the location where the Martin station wagon had last
2:02
Speaker 2: been seen parked. There was also an abandoned car near
2:05
Speaker 2: there that had been stolen from California and was presumably
2:08
Speaker 2: driven by two ex convicts named Lester Kenneth Price and
2:12
Speaker 2: Roy Light, so it seemed like it was possible that
2:15
Speaker 2: these two men may have crossed passed with the Martins
2:17
Speaker 2: after they left the diner, and then decided to murder
2:20
Speaker 2: them and run their station wagon with their bodies inside,
2:24
Speaker 2: off the road down a cliff into the river. And
2:27
Speaker 2: there was also speculation about Donald, the surviving son, because
2:31
Speaker 2: he did not seem to care all that much about
2:33
Speaker 2: his family's disappearances. He was reportedly estranged from them because
2:38
Speaker 2: there were allegations that he had been caught with another
2:40
Speaker 2: man and they did not accept him being gay. And
2:43
Speaker 2: the gun that was found with the blood on it
2:46
Speaker 2: had actually been stolen from a department store where Donald
2:50
Speaker 2: worked years ago, and he was accused of stealing it,
2:53
Speaker 2: but the gun was never recovered. So this just seemed
2:55
Speaker 2: like too much of a coincidence and has led to
2:57
Speaker 2: speculation that perhaps Donald got these two men to murder
3:01
Speaker 2: his family so he could inherit their estate. And there
3:04
Speaker 2: was another mysterious figure named Wayne who just happened to
3:06
Speaker 2: live in the Cascade Locks area near where the Martins
3:09
Speaker 2: went missing, who had allegedly he was a good friend
3:12
Speaker 2: to Donald and they had allegedly been involved in a relationship,
3:15
Speaker 2: so there's also been speculation that Wayne might have been involved.
3:19
Speaker 2: Donald has since passed away, but apparently never mentioned his
3:22
Speaker 2: family at all to his wife and children until the
3:25
Speaker 2: last moments of his life. So even though this was
3:29
Speaker 2: initially assumed to be a tragic accident, there are some
3:31
Speaker 2: law enforcement figures who believed that foul play took place
3:34
Speaker 2: and that the Martin family was murdered.
3:38
Speaker 1: Now, the one fact about this case, which I think
3:40
Speaker 1: is probably indisputable, is that the Martins missing Ford station
3:45
Speaker 1: wagon is submerged in the Columbia River somewhere, and the
3:48
Speaker 1: bodies of Kenneth, Barbara, and Barbie are still inside. The
3:52
Speaker 1: theory that the drilling barge dislodged one of the vehicle's
3:55
Speaker 1: doors and caused the bodies of Susan and Virginia to
3:57
Speaker 1: come loose and sloped downstream makes complete sense, and I
4:01
Speaker 1: have little doubt that's what happened, especially when you consider
4:05
Speaker 1: that this took place a short distance away from the
4:07
Speaker 1: cliff where the tire tracks were found. Since that pinpoints
4:11
Speaker 1: an approximate location where the car might be underwater, you
4:15
Speaker 1: might be wondering why no one else has ever been found.
4:19
Speaker 1: But it's not as easy as it looks. The searches
4:22
Speaker 1: have been conducted, but the visibility is poor, the water
4:25
Speaker 1: is over one hundred feet deep, and even a two
4:27
Speaker 1: ton anchor was unable to bring the vehicle to the
4:30
Speaker 1: surface without coming loose. But of course, the big catch
4:34
Speaker 1: twenty two here is that many people believe the investigation
4:37
Speaker 1: cannot go anywhere until a vehicle is found and there's
4:41
Speaker 1: more conclusive evidence of what happened. While the bodies of
4:44
Speaker 1: Susan and Virginia were recovered, they were heavily decomposed and
4:48
Speaker 1: the medical examiner did not see any noticeable signs of
4:51
Speaker 1: foul play. But we have one witness who is certain
4:55
Speaker 1: that he saw holes which could have been gunshot wounds
4:58
Speaker 1: in their skulls. Unfortunately, all that remains from the autopsy
5:03
Speaker 1: after all these years is one photograph of Virginia's body,
5:07
Speaker 1: but it's nowhere near clear enough to tell that she
5:09
Speaker 1: has a hole in her head. Since the girl's bodies
5:13
Speaker 1: were subsequently cremated, the only way to conclusively prove foul
5:17
Speaker 1: play took place might be to recover the bodies of
5:20
Speaker 1: the other missing family members.
5:23
Speaker 3: It's also interesting because you have to remember the barge
5:25
Speaker 3: that was looking around had dropped that anchor when it
5:28
Speaker 3: thought that it caught on the car, which could have
5:30
Speaker 3: easily allowed the bodies to escape the vehicle at that point.
5:34
Speaker 3: Is it possible that the anchor itself could have caused
5:37
Speaker 3: damage to the skulls of the girls, like when it
5:39
Speaker 3: hit the top of the car, or you know, broke
5:41
Speaker 3: through one of the windows or something like that, that
5:43
Speaker 3: if there was injury to the body, that it could
5:46
Speaker 3: have been caused by the anchor. And when you think
5:50
Speaker 3: about recovering the other bodies, you do have to remember
5:53
Speaker 3: there was a gun linked to Donald through Wayne that
5:57
Speaker 3: we can talk about later. But if that's true, and
6:01
Speaker 3: there's a bloody gun that has damage to the butt
6:04
Speaker 3: of the gun and is loaded, that it's very possible
6:07
Speaker 3: to subdue five people. There was a gun used or
6:10
Speaker 3: another kind of weapon, but the immediacy and quickness of
6:13
Speaker 3: a gun to threaten and then kill a family seems
6:16
Speaker 3: like the plausible explanation if there was foul play.
6:20
Speaker 2: I mean, it is possible. I guess that the anchor
6:22
Speaker 2: could have caused these so called holes in the girl's skulls.
6:26
Speaker 2: But it just seems weird that the medical examiner himself
6:29
Speaker 2: would not notice them, but this other witness did. And
6:32
Speaker 2: I don't know how thoroughly they looked into their skulls
6:34
Speaker 2: to see if there were any bullets inside. You would
6:37
Speaker 2: like to think that they would do that. But maybe
6:39
Speaker 2: if they just wrote off Dess as an accident, maybe
6:41
Speaker 2: they just did not bother. But you're right, like, if
6:44
Speaker 2: they were able to recover the other's free missing bodies
6:47
Speaker 2: and discovered that yes, they had bullet holes, and they
6:49
Speaker 2: have bullets in their bodies, then that would conclusively prove
6:52
Speaker 2: that foul play took place.
6:54
Speaker 1: I just have a hard time believing that the anchor
6:56
Speaker 1: could have caused the damage that could have been miss
7:00
Speaker 1: drewed as potentially being bullet holes, because anchors are so
7:03
Speaker 1: big and so heavy that if it made contact with
7:06
Speaker 1: the human skull, not to be macab but it would
7:09
Speaker 1: have the force and the weight to smash a skull apart.
7:14
Speaker 1: I don't think it would leave a tiny little thing
7:16
Speaker 1: like a ding that could be this mistaken for a
7:19
Speaker 1: tiny caliber bullet wound.
7:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there probably would have been more damage
7:23
Speaker 2: to their skulls, and as far as I can tell,
7:25
Speaker 2: no noticeable damage was found either of the girl's skulls.
7:30
Speaker 2: There was one part of the original investigation which was
7:32
Speaker 2: bungled in a completely jaw dropping way, and that's the
7:36
Speaker 2: handling of the bloodstained thirty eight cold command or handgun.
7:39
Speaker 2: As you recall, the weapon was found near the location
7:42
Speaker 2: where the stolen Chevrolet was abandoned. And it could be
7:45
Speaker 2: linked to Lester Kenneth Price. When the person who found
7:48
Speaker 2: the gun attempted to turn it into the local sheriff's office,
7:51
Speaker 2: it seems like instead of processing it for evidence, they
7:54
Speaker 2: just said, well, finders keepers and let them take it home.
7:58
Speaker 2: And that's not an exaggeration. In nineteen eighty six, the
8:01
Speaker 2: widow of the man who found the gun actually did
8:04
Speaker 2: an interview for a news segment about the case and
8:06
Speaker 2: held the handgup up on camera to show that she
8:09
Speaker 2: still had it after all these years. Obviously, the dry
8:13
Speaker 2: blood had since been cleaned off and the butt of
8:15
Speaker 2: the gun was repaired, but she did confirm that it
8:18
Speaker 2: was damaged at the time it was originally found, as
8:21
Speaker 2: if it had been used to bludgeon someone. Well, obviously,
8:24
Speaker 2: after all this, there's no way that weapon will ever
8:27
Speaker 2: be admissible as evidence against anyone. But it just blows
8:30
Speaker 2: my mind that was not processed for fingerprints, even if
8:34
Speaker 2: it had no connection to the Martin case. The presence
8:36
Speaker 2: of dried blood should have been a pretty good indication
8:39
Speaker 2: that the gun was used for some sort of crime. However,
8:43
Speaker 2: at the very least, I'm glad that the serial number
8:45
Speaker 2: was recorded because this allowed Detective Graven to discover that
8:48
Speaker 2: the gun was allegedly stolen by Donald Martin from a
8:51
Speaker 2: department store he was working at three years earlier. If
8:55
Speaker 2: Donald was not involved in his family's disappearance, then that's
8:58
Speaker 2: a pretty astonishing coincidence. And as far as I'm concerned,
9:02
Speaker 2: this is the strongest indicator that the Martins, just that
9:05
Speaker 2: the Martins did not just simply die in an accident.
9:08
Speaker 3: It is incredibly bizarre that you would have a weapon
9:11
Speaker 3: retrieved and you would see dried blood, you would see
9:15
Speaker 3: damage to the weapon, and you would see you know
9:18
Speaker 3: that it had been discharged, and you would just say,
9:20
Speaker 3: you know what, keep that, you found it, you keep it.
9:23
Speaker 3: We already wrote down the serial number and that's it.
9:27
Speaker 3: Now again it's nineteen fifty eight. But even then, why
9:30
Speaker 3: else would a weapon be damaged and have blood on it.
9:33
Speaker 3: You either shot an animal, or you shot a human
9:35
Speaker 3: being and there needs to be an investigation, or you
9:39
Speaker 3: beat a human being with it. So it is very bizarre,
9:43
Speaker 3: and especially just to give it back to this poor
9:45
Speaker 3: man and the wife's like, look, we still have it.
9:48
Speaker 3: We restored it, but we're pretty sure it was using
9:51
Speaker 3: the commission of a crime very bizarre. And then when
9:54
Speaker 3: you talk about it being tied to Donald, remember in
9:57
Speaker 3: episode one you told me it also is tied to
10:00
Speaker 3: his friend Wayne, who was part of that underground gay
10:03
Speaker 3: lifestyle with Donald and was the one that Donald said
10:07
Speaker 3: could have been in possession of it at the time.
10:10
Speaker 3: And Wayne actually lived much closer to the scene and
10:12
Speaker 3: was present in the area at the time. So it
10:15
Speaker 3: ropes not just Donald but a former potential lover of
10:19
Speaker 3: his or friend of his that he used to live
10:20
Speaker 3: with Wayne to the murder of his family, which is
10:25
Speaker 3: really really powerful, I think.
10:28
Speaker 1: So light in Price, is it possible that they could
10:31
Speaker 1: have had a connection to Wayne because didn't they live
10:35
Speaker 1: or one of them was from the area, So is
10:39
Speaker 1: there a potential that they could have been linked up
10:41
Speaker 1: and that maybe Wayne conspired with them at the behest
10:46
Speaker 1: of Donald.
10:47
Speaker 2: It is possible because, like you said, I think it
10:50
Speaker 2: was light who was originally from the area, and Wayne
10:52
Speaker 2: lived in Cascade Locks, which was very close to where
10:55
Speaker 2: the Martins went missing. So it's a lot more plausible
10:58
Speaker 2: to think that Wayne conspired these guys rather than Donald,
11:01
Speaker 2: because Donald was living all the way in New York
11:04
Speaker 2: and we never found any evidence that Donald was acquainted
11:07
Speaker 2: with Price or Light, but we do know that he
11:10
Speaker 2: was acquainted with Wayne and that Wayne lived in the
11:12
Speaker 2: same area as at least one of these guys. So
11:15
Speaker 2: you can see how like a conspiracy like this could
11:18
Speaker 2: have taken place.
11:20
Speaker 1: But let's start at the very beginning. The story is
11:23
Speaker 1: that the Martins left on their road trip in order
11:26
Speaker 1: to travel to Columbia River Gorge to get a Christmas
11:28
Speaker 1: tree and some greens for decoration, which makes sense since
11:32
Speaker 1: this was something that they did around the holidays pretty
11:35
Speaker 1: much every year. However, the thing that raised some eyebrows
11:39
Speaker 1: is when they turned down the invitation for Sunday dinner
11:41
Speaker 1: with friends, as they get the impression that they got
11:44
Speaker 1: together for this on an almost weekly basis. Kenneth apparently
11:48
Speaker 1: responded with the words quote we had better do as planned,
11:51
Speaker 1: which can be interpreted in any number of ways. This
11:55
Speaker 1: becomes even more unusual when you consider that the Martins
11:58
Speaker 1: were seen by a waitress at the Paradise Snack Bar
12:01
Speaker 1: in Hood River later that day. I know there was
12:04
Speaker 1: initially some skepticism about the waitress's siding, as some believed
12:09
Speaker 1: she could have served an entirely different family and mistaken
12:12
Speaker 1: them for the Martins, but the fact that the burghers
12:14
Speaker 1: and brides were found among Susan and Virginia's stomach contents
12:18
Speaker 1: after their bodies were recovered seems to corroborate her story.
12:22
Speaker 1: Even if they did not visit the Paradise snack bar,
12:25
Speaker 1: those girls ate somewhere only about two hours before their deaths.
12:29
Speaker 1: So perhaps the Martins turned down Sunday dinner because they
12:32
Speaker 1: wanted to take the girls out for burgers and brides
12:34
Speaker 1: that night, but why would they travel sixty miles to
12:37
Speaker 1: do so. Earlier that afternoon, the Martins were allegedly seen
12:41
Speaker 1: purchasing a Christmas tree at a property on Larch Mountain Road,
12:45
Speaker 1: though the owner could not be one hundred percent certain
12:47
Speaker 1: that they were there. But remember, some of the witnesses
12:50
Speaker 1: who reported seeing the Martin station wagon at Trotter's Point
12:54
Speaker 1: thought they saw a Christmas tree in the back of
12:56
Speaker 1: the vehicle. And of course, we also have the credit
12:59
Speaker 1: card receipt showing that Kenneth purchased fuel at a gas
13:02
Speaker 1: station in Cascade Locks, which is en route from Larch
13:05
Speaker 1: Mountain Road to Hood River. Since purchasing a tree seemed
13:09
Speaker 1: to be the main purpose of the Martin's trip that
13:11
Speaker 1: day what compelled them to travel the Hood River instead
13:14
Speaker 1: of returning to Portland. It was also around dusk when
13:18
Speaker 1: they were seen leaving the Paradise snack Bar, which many
13:21
Speaker 1: people found unusual since Kenneth hated driving in the dark
13:25
Speaker 1: and it would take him over an hour to get
13:27
Speaker 1: home from there. Of course, if Kenneth was not adept
13:30
Speaker 1: at driving at night, then this could provide a potential
13:33
Speaker 1: explanation for him accidentally driving into the river. But the
13:37
Speaker 1: problem is that the waitress said that the Martins were
13:39
Speaker 1: heading west when they left. Well, the tire tracks found
13:43
Speaker 1: next to the cliff in the Dalls were over twenty
13:45
Speaker 1: miles east in the opposite direction. If those tracks belonged
13:50
Speaker 1: to the station wagon, then it's harder to believe that
13:52
Speaker 1: the Martins drove into the river by accident, since there's
13:55
Speaker 1: no logical reason for them to have been there in
13:57
Speaker 1: the first place. So, as you're get to imagine, there's
14:01
Speaker 1: been much speculation that the Martins had ulterior motives for
14:05
Speaker 1: taking that trip to Hood River County.
14:08
Speaker 3: To me, when you think about the route that they took,
14:10
Speaker 3: I don't think they drove sixty miles for Hamburgers and
14:12
Speaker 3: French fries. But I wouldn't be surprised if they drove
14:16
Speaker 3: sixty miles to do their Christmas decorating supply shopping. You
14:21
Speaker 3: think about like Christmas vacation. They're on a trek to
14:24
Speaker 3: go get that, you know, that Christmas tree they want.
14:27
Speaker 3: And so I could see a family saying this is
14:29
Speaker 3: a tradition we do. He dresses a Santa for God's sake,
14:32
Speaker 3: So like Christmas is a big deal to them, I
14:35
Speaker 3: could see them saying, Hey, I want to go to
14:36
Speaker 3: that cute little Christmas shop over in this town, and
14:39
Speaker 3: I really want to get our a tree from this
14:40
Speaker 3: Christmas tree farm and making this whole plotted day out
14:44
Speaker 3: of it. Yes, Kenneth didn't like driving a night, but
14:47
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean he can't if his family had this
14:51
Speaker 3: day planned out. He works, they go to school. There's
14:55
Speaker 3: very few days that you can take your family on
14:57
Speaker 3: a whole day trip to go get Christmas goodies. I
15:00
Speaker 3: could see that being the plan. I also think that
15:04
Speaker 3: you have to reflect back on that white car being
15:06
Speaker 3: pulled up next to the station wagon at some point,
15:09
Speaker 3: and then those two men that abandoned the white car
15:14
Speaker 3: and could have potentially hindered the family incapacitated, the family
15:19
Speaker 3: gotten into the station wagon, turned in the wrong direction,
15:22
Speaker 3: and gone to where they wanted to dispose of this
15:25
Speaker 3: vehicle and hitched a ride somewhere else with a friend
15:27
Speaker 3: or you know, with somebody else at the time. And
15:31
Speaker 3: I think that creates a very plausible situation of why
15:34
Speaker 3: the car was in the wrong direction, why it was
15:36
Speaker 3: far away from that spot it had been with the
15:39
Speaker 3: white car and the two unknown men. And I'm very
15:42
Speaker 3: interested to know is it possible if it could have
15:45
Speaker 3: been Wayne with one of those men, or are we
15:49
Speaker 3: pretty confident that it's those two ex convicts that were
15:53
Speaker 3: the ones stopped with the white car.
15:56
Speaker 2: Well, there haven't been any confirmed sightings of Wayne anywhere
15:59
Speaker 2: near the Martin family, Like, we don't even know if
16:01
Speaker 2: they knew each other. It does seem applausible that the
16:04
Speaker 2: two men would be Price and Light, because we know
16:07
Speaker 2: that Price stole the car from a friend of his
16:10
Speaker 2: in California and Light was his criminal associate, and they
16:13
Speaker 2: were seen together a lot in that area over the
16:16
Speaker 2: course in the next few days. But of course, like
16:19
Speaker 2: you said, it's possible that Wayne could have orchestrated the
16:22
Speaker 2: whole thing and got these two men to commit murder
16:24
Speaker 2: on his behalf. Well. One theory which was pushed around
16:28
Speaker 2: and is addressed in Echoes of Distant Water is the
16:30
Speaker 2: possibility that the Martin's oldest daughter, Barbie, had become pregnant
16:35
Speaker 2: and the family took the trip to Hood River County
16:37
Speaker 2: so that Kenneth could confront the child's biological father. While
16:41
Speaker 2: there is no real evidence to support this theory, Barbie
16:44
Speaker 2: did make an unexplained trip to see a doctor in Vancouver, Washington,
16:48
Speaker 2: a few months before her disappearance, even though the family
16:51
Speaker 2: had a regular doctor in Portland, which might suggest something
16:54
Speaker 2: secretive on their part, and since Barbie's body has never
16:58
Speaker 2: been found, it could not be confirmed if she was
17:00
Speaker 2: pregnant at that time. While no documentation could be found
17:04
Speaker 2: in which Detective Graven specifically wrote about this pregnancy theory,
17:08
Speaker 2: there was an entry in his notebook dated June the second,
17:11
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty nine, in which he wrote quote with Donald
17:14
Speaker 2: Martin eliminated had to be a friend whom Ken Martin
17:17
Speaker 2: had found out about and was going to expose. Therefore
17:20
Speaker 2: had to be a married man or one going to
17:22
Speaker 2: be married end quote. So does this imply that Graven
17:26
Speaker 2: had changed his mind on his initial suspicions about Donald
17:29
Speaker 2: and now had a different theory. That's not quite clear,
17:33
Speaker 2: but I don't think Graven ever wavered from the idea
17:36
Speaker 2: that Kenneth took the lengthy trip because he was planning
17:38
Speaker 2: to meet someone, but this person ultimately murdered the entire family. However,
17:43
Speaker 2: the biggest issue I've had with the idea that Kenneth
17:45
Speaker 2: had a secret meetup about a serious topic is that
17:48
Speaker 2: I don't understand why he would bring all three of
17:51
Speaker 2: his daughters along if it involved something sensitive like Barbie
17:55
Speaker 2: becoming pregnant. You'd think that he would want to shield
17:58
Speaker 2: Susan and Virginia from the situation. I guess it's possible
18:01
Speaker 2: that their annual trip to pick up a Christmas tree
18:04
Speaker 2: was just a cover story, and Kenneth took his kids
18:06
Speaker 2: out for burgers and fries at the Paradise Snack Bar
18:09
Speaker 2: in order to keep them happy and justify the lengthy
18:12
Speaker 2: trip the Hood River County. But I don't know. It
18:15
Speaker 2: just seems more practical for the Martins to leave their
18:18
Speaker 2: daughters at home and get someone else to watch over them,
18:21
Speaker 2: rather than involve them in something like this.
18:24
Speaker 3: I don't think that there would be this desire for
18:27
Speaker 3: their daughter to even be exposed to the man who
18:30
Speaker 3: impregnated her. She's what fourteen?
18:33
Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah, that's correct.
18:35
Speaker 3: Okay, so you're talking about nineteen fifty eight, you're talking
18:39
Speaker 3: about a fourteen year old child who is pregnant, and
18:43
Speaker 3: regardless of who the father is. I just don't see
18:48
Speaker 3: them one keeping the baby, especially if it's secretive. I
18:52
Speaker 3: don't see them bringing that fourteen year old along to
18:54
Speaker 3: confront the biological father of this baby. I think the
18:58
Speaker 3: idea would be, if anybody was going to go, it'd
19:01
Speaker 3: be Kenneth to directly confront this person and let them know,
19:04
Speaker 3: you stay away from my daughter, you stay away from
19:06
Speaker 3: my family. My daughter's going through enough. We're going to
19:10
Speaker 3: send her away to have the baby. We're going to
19:12
Speaker 3: terminate the baby, whatever the situation was, and then that
19:16
Speaker 3: would be wrapped up. Why would you expose your pregnant
19:20
Speaker 3: fourteen year old if that even was a reality. Why
19:23
Speaker 3: would you expose your twelve and ten year old who
19:25
Speaker 3: don't need to know about sex and their sister being
19:28
Speaker 3: pregnant and even the wife unless there was going to
19:32
Speaker 3: be some desire to raise the child as their own
19:35
Speaker 3: or something. I don't even know that at nineteen fifty
19:38
Speaker 3: eight you would take your wife, because at the time,
19:40
Speaker 3: I don't know that women had as much say or
19:43
Speaker 3: kind of I don't know, like loudness to go sit
19:48
Speaker 3: there and confront a man who impregnated your fourteen year
19:50
Speaker 3: old daughter. I feel like you would be comforting your
19:53
Speaker 3: daughter while your husband went and did the big front
19:56
Speaker 3: with the man who got her pregnant. I don't know,
19:57
Speaker 3: it's just none of that seems to make any sense.
20:01
Speaker 2: I mean, I could see them having an ulterior motive
20:03
Speaker 2: to going to this particular location, but just the setup,
20:06
Speaker 2: because how it happened is that it just starts off
20:08
Speaker 2: as a routine day where it's like, hey, kids, let's
20:10
Speaker 2: go get a Christmas tree, let's get some Christmas decorations,
20:13
Speaker 2: let's have burger and fries. Now, let's go confront Barnie's
20:16
Speaker 2: baby daddy. Like that's just not something you would do
20:19
Speaker 2: with your twelve year old and your ten year old.
20:21
Speaker 3: No, and imagine too, if you're trying to hide that
20:23
Speaker 3: your daughter's pregnant, your ten and twelve year old are
20:26
Speaker 3: ten and twelve year old's like they talk, so you
20:29
Speaker 3: would most likely back then you would send your daughter away.
20:33
Speaker 3: You would make sure like she needs to go to
20:35
Speaker 3: camp for six months, and we don't talk about it anymore.
20:38
Speaker 2: You know.
20:39
Speaker 3: If he was that upset that he's going to go
20:40
Speaker 3: confront the father, I just don't see that you would
20:43
Speaker 3: even have it as a family conversation. It would be
20:46
Speaker 3: very hush hush. It would be very embarrassing, it would
20:49
Speaker 3: be very heartbreaking, and your ten and twelve year old
20:53
Speaker 3: don't need to be any part of that.
20:55
Speaker 1: Why would anybody go but Kenneth, I just don't see
20:58
Speaker 1: a situation where he would think that it would be
21:01
Speaker 1: the right move to bring along all of his daughters
21:04
Speaker 1: and his wife. It just doesn't seem like that just
21:08
Speaker 1: doesn't compute for me. Seems like he was obviously meeting
21:11
Speaker 1: up with somebody, or it seems like the probability is high,
21:15
Speaker 1: But I don't think that it would be a potential
21:17
Speaker 1: father for Barbie's maybe baby or alleged baby. Like it
21:23
Speaker 1: does seem odd that you went to this doctor's appointment
21:25
Speaker 1: and I don't know what was going on there, but
21:27
Speaker 1: I just don't think that you take the whole family
21:29
Speaker 1: on a car ride for this big trip as like
21:32
Speaker 1: subterfuge that you're going to get a Christmas tree or
21:34
Speaker 1: maybe that's your secondary motivation, and then you go and
21:37
Speaker 1: confront this boy like in front of your entire family.
21:40
Speaker 1: It just seems really strange, And of course we can't
21:45
Speaker 1: overlook the multiple eyewitness sightings of the station wagon parked
21:49
Speaker 1: by the highway near Trotter's Point, which is nearly halfway
21:52
Speaker 1: between Hood River and Cascade Locks. Some of the witnesses
21:56
Speaker 1: were called seeing either two men standing outside the stationwagan
22:00
Speaker 1: or a second car park nearby. So perhaps after leaving
22:04
Speaker 1: the restaurant, the Martins traveled west for a secret meet
22:07
Speaker 1: up there, or someone followed them and forced them to
22:10
Speaker 1: pull over, but then something happened which led to the
22:13
Speaker 1: station wagon traveling nearly thirty miles east to the Dolls
22:16
Speaker 1: and being driven off the Rocky Bluff into the river
22:19
Speaker 1: with the entire family inside. This theory does make sense
22:23
Speaker 1: when you consider the two x cohns Lester Kenneth Price
22:27
Speaker 1: and Roy Light were seen at the Paradise Snack Bar
22:30
Speaker 1: around the exact same time the Martins were there, and
22:34
Speaker 1: the Chevrolet which Price had stolen from California was abandoned
22:38
Speaker 1: at Trotter's Point, in very close proximity to where the
22:41
Speaker 1: station wagon had been seen, and of course, Price and
22:45
Speaker 1: Light spent December seventh to tenth staying in Dollsport, which
22:48
Speaker 1: is directly across the river from the cliff where the
22:51
Speaker 1: tire tracks were found. The two cons may have followed
22:55
Speaker 1: the Martins to Trotter's Point and climbed into the station
22:58
Speaker 1: wagon to force them to drive to the dolls at Gunpoint,
23:01
Speaker 1: which would explain why they abandoned the Chevy at that spot.
23:05
Speaker 1: One theory presented and Echoes of Distant Water is that
23:08
Speaker 1: one of the men managed to hide inside the station
23:10
Speaker 1: wagon before the Martins left the restaurant, and after the
23:14
Speaker 1: family climbed in and drove away, he forced them to
23:16
Speaker 1: pull over at Trotter's Point, where he was joined by
23:19
Speaker 1: his partner. Honestly, if this is how events actually played out,
23:23
Speaker 1: I'd be inclined to think the crime was some sort
23:25
Speaker 1: of robbery gone wrong, and that the Martins were targeted
23:28
Speaker 1: when the con saw them at the restaurant. Otherwise, why
23:31
Speaker 1: would these two particular guys decide to murder an entire family.
23:36
Speaker 3: I think it's possible that they could have hidden in
23:38
Speaker 3: the car. But I also think that when they see
23:41
Speaker 3: this family out at a restaurant, it's four women, four
23:44
Speaker 3: girls for females, and dad, and these are young girls
23:49
Speaker 3: who probably couldn't have fought back very much. And these
23:51
Speaker 3: are two ex cons watching them. So you have the
23:54
Speaker 3: four girls. You also have the fact that who knows
23:57
Speaker 3: if dad pulled out like a lot of cash when
23:59
Speaker 3: he's paying for and they see that and it is
24:01
Speaker 3: a robbery or is it something that's maybe power or
24:04
Speaker 3: sexually motivated. If they were not hiding in the vehicle,
24:08
Speaker 3: I think it's also very possible that they, you know,
24:11
Speaker 3: were riding on the on Kenneth's rear end. They're flashing
24:14
Speaker 3: their lights, they're honking at him to pull over. They
24:16
Speaker 3: could have rear ended him, and or they could have
24:19
Speaker 3: used some kind of ruse like a little like police
24:22
Speaker 3: light or something on top of their car, because back
24:24
Speaker 3: then some police horses had the little one light that
24:28
Speaker 3: you popped on top of your hood and you know,
24:30
Speaker 3: could be spinning. And so I think there's a lot
24:33
Speaker 3: of ways you could have gotten Kenneth to pull the
24:35
Speaker 3: car over. And then, like you said, the location of
24:39
Speaker 3: these men and where they were staying perfectly lines up.
24:42
Speaker 3: Once I've sexually assaulted the family, once I've killed the family,
24:46
Speaker 3: once I've beaten them, whatever it is, then I drive
24:51
Speaker 3: the vehicle back towards where we live, drive it off
24:55
Speaker 3: a cliff, and we're able to either walk or easily
24:57
Speaker 3: hitchhike back to where we were staying.
25:00
Speaker 2: As far as I can tell, Price and Light were
25:02
Speaker 2: never questioned by police about the Martins. What's interesting is
25:06
Speaker 2: that while Price's name was mentioned during the original news coverage,
25:09
Speaker 2: mostly due to the stolen Chevy being linked to him,
25:12
Speaker 2: there was no mention of Light. If you search Price's
25:15
Speaker 2: name on newspapers dot Com, you'll find quite a few
25:18
Speaker 2: articles about various criminal activities he was involved in he
25:21
Speaker 2: was involved with over the years. In fact, in nineteen
25:24
Speaker 2: sixty seven, Price made the news after he was arrested
25:28
Speaker 2: for counterfeiting, and he actually said that since he had
25:30
Speaker 2: literally spent half of his life behind bars by that point,
25:34
Speaker 2: he actually preferred being in prison. But there's virtually no
25:37
Speaker 2: information out there about Light, though a photograph of him
25:41
Speaker 2: could be found in Detective Graven's original case file. However,
25:45
Speaker 2: during his research, JB. Fisher uncovered a mug shot of
25:48
Speaker 2: a criminal named Richard Allen Hunt and became convinced he
25:52
Speaker 2: was Roy Light. On March twenty fourth, nineteen fifty nine,
25:56
Speaker 2: Hunt was pulled over outside the town of Harrisburg, Oregon,
25:59
Speaker 2: by the local police chief for having improper license plates
26:02
Speaker 2: on his car, but Hunt proceeded to pull out a
26:05
Speaker 2: gun and abduct them, and drove about nine miles before
26:08
Speaker 2: he let the chief go. This soon led to a
26:10
Speaker 2: police chase in which Hunt crashed his car outside the
26:13
Speaker 2: town of Brownsville, but he proceeded to shoot and wound
26:16
Speaker 2: their local police chief and managed to escape the scene
26:19
Speaker 2: on foot. A massive man hunt would take place, and
26:23
Speaker 2: Hunt even spent a week on the FBI's ten most
26:26
Speaker 2: Wanted Fugitives list before he was captured in Wyoming on
26:29
Speaker 2: June the second. After doing a stint in prison, Hunt
26:32
Speaker 2: was released in nineteen sixty eight. Now Echoes of Distant
26:36
Speaker 2: Water features photos of both Richard Allen Hunt and Roy
26:39
Speaker 2: lt and I gotta tell you, the similarities are so
26:43
Speaker 2: striking that unless those guys were long lost identical twins,
26:46
Speaker 2: I'm pretty certain they're the same person. When he was
26:49
Speaker 2: originally pulled over, Hunt was wanted on a federal warrant
26:53
Speaker 2: for interstate transportation of a stolen car, which probably explains
26:57
Speaker 2: why he decided to kidnap a police chief at gunpoint
27:00
Speaker 2: for a seemingly routine traffic violation. But this was only
27:04
Speaker 2: three months removed from the Martin family's disappearance, and if
27:07
Speaker 2: Hunt was involved in that, I can see why he
27:10
Speaker 2: would have gone to extreme lengths to avoid the police. However,
27:13
Speaker 2: by the time Hunt was captured, I don't think anyone
27:16
Speaker 2: had put two and two together and connected him to
27:18
Speaker 2: the Martin case, so he was probably never questioned about it.
27:22
Speaker 3: So we believe Light and Hunt could be the same person,
27:26
Speaker 3: and he has that same behavior where he's easily able
27:30
Speaker 3: to kidnap flea run. I mean, he has this kind
27:33
Speaker 3: of personality where he is going to avoid law enforcement
27:37
Speaker 3: at all costs, but has no qualms pulling a gun
27:40
Speaker 3: on the police chief, kidnapping him, escorting him to a
27:44
Speaker 3: new location. I mean, that's basically what could have happened
27:47
Speaker 3: to the Martin family is that you saw them, you
27:51
Speaker 3: wanted to get your way however financially, power sex wise,
27:56
Speaker 3: and when you apprehend them, it's no sweat off your
28:00
Speaker 3: back to then transport them and try to dispose of
28:02
Speaker 3: their body. That's nearly what Hunt did with the.
28:05
Speaker 2: Police chief pretty much. Yeah, And I could see him
28:08
Speaker 2: overreacting like that if he did something in the Martin family.
28:12
Speaker 2: And even though he was being pulled over for a
28:14
Speaker 2: routine traffic stop, he might be thinking, oh my god,
28:16
Speaker 2: they're here to question me about the Martins. I better
28:18
Speaker 2: kidnap this guy at gunpoint and get out of here.
28:21
Speaker 2: These two guys, because of their extensive criminal activity, definitely
28:25
Speaker 2: seemed like people who would have been capable of murdering
28:28
Speaker 2: an entire family.
28:29
Speaker 3: And he was getting pulled over for a stolen car, correct,
28:32
Speaker 3: which is what that white car was as well. I
28:33
Speaker 3: was stolen by likely those two ex.
28:36
Speaker 2: Cons exactly like these guys were pretty much career criminals.
28:42
Speaker 1: Honestly, since neither Price or light Slash Hunt seemed to
28:46
Speaker 1: have any discernible connection to the Martins, I would ordinarily
28:49
Speaker 1: be inclined to think that the family was simply in
28:52
Speaker 1: the wrong place at the wrong time and were preyed
28:55
Speaker 1: upon by a pair of criminals. Well, once again, the
28:58
Speaker 1: discovery of the thirty eight cool commit under handgun, which
29:01
Speaker 1: can be linked to Donald Martin is too much of
29:03
Speaker 1: a coincidence to ignore, and the fact that Donald claimed
29:07
Speaker 1: his friend Wayne was the person who actually sotle the gun,
29:10
Speaker 1: and Wayne just happened to be living in Cascade Locks
29:13
Speaker 1: at that time is just one coincidence too many as
29:16
Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned. While we know that Detective Graven
29:20
Speaker 1: had suspicions about Donald, and I can definitely see why
29:23
Speaker 1: Donald had a strained relationship with his family. He was
29:26
Speaker 1: the sole beneficiary of their estate, and he seemed to
29:29
Speaker 1: have very little interest in searching for them while they
29:32
Speaker 1: were missing, or mourning his two sisters once they were
29:35
Speaker 1: found dead. But of course, the issue with implicating Donald
29:38
Speaker 1: is that he was living three thousand miles away in
29:41
Speaker 1: New York at the time. I'm not exactly sure what
29:44
Speaker 1: Donald's alibi was on the day his family went missing,
29:47
Speaker 1: but even back in nineteen fifty eight, I'm sure it
29:50
Speaker 1: would have been difficult for him to travel from New
29:52
Speaker 1: York to Oregon and back again without leaving some sort
29:55
Speaker 1: of paper trail. After all, he was enlisted in the Navy,
30:00
Speaker 1: absences would have been noted. The idea has been put
30:03
Speaker 1: forward that Donald could have hired Price in light to
30:05
Speaker 1: get rid of his family, But how would he have
30:08
Speaker 1: organized this from the other side of the country, as
30:10
Speaker 1: both these men operated on the West coast. But it's
30:14
Speaker 1: definitely tempting to think that Donald's enigmatic friend Wayne might
30:18
Speaker 1: have been involved. Wayne's last name has never been released publicly,
30:22
Speaker 1: but JB. Fisher claims that he found him on Facebook
30:25
Speaker 1: and that he was still alive at the time Echoes
30:27
Speaker 1: of Distant Water was published, And of course Wayne shared
30:31
Speaker 1: his own insights about the case when he came forward
30:33
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight to do an interview. Even
30:36
Speaker 1: after Donald moved away, Wayne claimed, but he still kept
30:39
Speaker 1: in touch with the Martin family and the last time
30:42
Speaker 1: he saw them was that a barbecue during the summer
30:45
Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty eight before he moved to Cascade Locks.
30:49
Speaker 1: It's interesting how Detective Graven's old notes mentioned Wayne's name
30:53
Speaker 1: alongside the phrase quote put grease on the spot you
30:57
Speaker 1: don't want chickens to roost. Raven also wrote quote had
31:02
Speaker 1: to be a friend whom Ken Martin had found out
31:05
Speaker 1: about and was going to expose. Therefore had to be
31:08
Speaker 1: a married man or one going to be married. Well.
31:12
Speaker 1: Wayne did end up getting married in March of nineteen
31:15
Speaker 1: fifty nine, and as politically incorrect as this might sound today,
31:20
Speaker 1: at one point, Graven none too subtlely scrawled out the
31:23
Speaker 1: words quote Wayne Homo. Well, that would definitely qualify as
31:28
Speaker 1: a secret that a newly married man wouldn't want exposed,
31:32
Speaker 1: especially in the nineteen fifties.
31:34
Speaker 2: Oh.
31:35
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And when you think about this idea that Wayne
31:38
Speaker 3: says he was still in touch with the family, like
31:41
Speaker 3: how and why would he be so close to the
31:43
Speaker 3: family still if Donald wasn't a part of it, Like
31:45
Speaker 3: to me, you were his roommate and you worked with him.
31:49
Speaker 3: But Donald had got into trouble, the family had dissolved
31:52
Speaker 3: because of some inappropriate relationship, especially if it had been
31:56
Speaker 3: Wayne that Kenneth had caught him with in their own home.
32:00
Speaker 3: I just don't know why Wayne would continue to be
32:03
Speaker 3: part of the family. That sounds a little bit fishy.
32:06
Speaker 3: In Wayne even admitted I was exposed to the gay lifestyle,
32:10
Speaker 3: that underground lifestyle back in the fifties, right where it
32:13
Speaker 3: was very hush hush, where men would go on the
32:15
Speaker 3: down low and they would be with a woman. But
32:18
Speaker 3: then they would also have an exposure to this other world.
32:22
Speaker 3: And so it sounds like Wayne and Donald were heavily
32:25
Speaker 3: involved in that, if not involved together, And so it's
32:29
Speaker 3: really surprising to me that Donald would go off and
32:31
Speaker 3: be almost disowned by his family or disown them, and
32:34
Speaker 3: Wayne still has this great relationship the summer of nineteen
32:37
Speaker 3: fifty eight with the family. It just seems a little bizarre.
32:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think those are only his words. I
32:43
Speaker 2: don't know if there were any independent eyewitnesses who could
32:46
Speaker 2: say I saw Wayne at a family barbecue with the
32:48
Speaker 2: Martins during the summer of nineteen fifty eight, Because you're right,
32:51
Speaker 2: if he had been the one who was having an
32:54
Speaker 2: affair with Donald all those years earlier, then I'm sure
32:56
Speaker 2: the Martin family wouldn't want anything to do with him, actually,
33:00
Speaker 2: when you consider that they had sent Donald on the
33:02
Speaker 2: other side of the country into the Navy to try
33:04
Speaker 2: to quote unquote straighten him up. So I know that
33:08
Speaker 2: the thing that Graven seems to be implying is that
33:11
Speaker 2: perhaps Ken or someone else from the family knew some
33:13
Speaker 2: incriminating information about Wayne and was going to expose that
33:18
Speaker 2: he was a closet a gay man and maybe ruin
33:20
Speaker 2: his impending marriage. But it makes you wonder, why would
33:23
Speaker 2: Kenneth be inclined to do that, Like, why would he
33:26
Speaker 2: just go out of his way to try to ruin
33:27
Speaker 2: this guy's life when he's no longer a factor in
33:30
Speaker 2: the family's life at all, because he's no longer anywhere
33:33
Speaker 2: near Donald.
33:35
Speaker 1: And if there's no independent eyewitnesses to say that there
33:39
Speaker 1: was indeed this closeness between Wayne and the family, it
33:42
Speaker 1: seems odd if he was responsible that he would want
33:45
Speaker 1: to kind of insert himself like that. You'd think that
33:49
Speaker 1: he would want to distance himself from the family and
33:51
Speaker 1: be like, well, I haven't spoken to them in years,
33:53
Speaker 1: Like what would be my motivation? If they were going
33:56
Speaker 1: to out me, they would have done so a long
33:57
Speaker 1: time ago type of.
33:58
Speaker 2: A thing, exactly. So Wayne kind of seems a bit
34:01
Speaker 2: of an odd duck here. It's almost like so many
34:03
Speaker 2: years had passed that he's thinking, I can say whatever
34:05
Speaker 2: I want and I don't care how suspicious it makes
34:08
Speaker 2: me look. So during his two thousand and eight interview,
34:12
Speaker 2: Wayne definitely implied that Donald was gay. He even went
34:16
Speaker 2: so far as to say that Donald introduced him to
34:18
Speaker 2: the quote unquote gay lifestyle, though it doesn't look like
34:21
Speaker 2: he explicitly said that he and Donald were lovers but
34:24
Speaker 2: I'd say that's certainly a good possibility, as they were
34:27
Speaker 2: both sharing a basement apartment and working at Meyer and
34:30
Speaker 2: Frank together in nineteen fifty five. As you might recall,
34:34
Speaker 2: Wayne shared a story about Donald being caught in the
34:36
Speaker 2: act with another man by his parents, but since no
34:39
Speaker 2: one seems to know who this man was, Wayne may
34:42
Speaker 2: have been referring to himself. When Donald was caught stealing
34:45
Speaker 2: items from Meyer and Frank, he tried to blame it
34:48
Speaker 2: on the stress of his family finding out he was
34:50
Speaker 2: gay and not reacting well to it. I get the
34:53
Speaker 2: impression that this is why his parents sent him off
34:55
Speaker 2: to the other side of the country to attend a
34:57
Speaker 2: religious college, as they helped joining a ministry might set
35:00
Speaker 2: Donald straight, though he ultimately decided to enlist in the
35:03
Speaker 2: Navy instead. While Donald and Wayne both went on to
35:07
Speaker 2: get married and start families, homosexuality and bisexuality was still
35:11
Speaker 2: an incredibly taboo subject back then, so either or both
35:15
Speaker 2: of them might have just done this for appearance's sake.
35:18
Speaker 2: If Wayne was involved in the Martin family's murders, then
35:21
Speaker 2: perhaps the crime was motivated by Kenneth threatening to expose
35:24
Speaker 2: his big secret, which would explain why he traveled all
35:27
Speaker 2: the way to Hood River County. In fact, if you
35:30
Speaker 2: put more stock into the pregnancy theory, then it's possible
35:33
Speaker 2: this whole thing had nothing to do with Donald. Kenneth
35:36
Speaker 2: may have wanted to confront Wayne because he was the
35:39
Speaker 2: father of his fourteen year old daughter's unborn child, which
35:42
Speaker 2: also would have been pretty scandalous. To cover this up,
35:46
Speaker 2: Wayne hired Price and Light to take care of the problem,
35:49
Speaker 2: and even supplied them with the gun he stole from
35:51
Speaker 2: the Department story years earlier to use as the murder weapon.
35:55
Speaker 2: One of the strangest clues in this case is the
35:58
Speaker 2: eyewitness sighting of the black tax parked outside the Martin
36:01
Speaker 2: residence on the morning of December the eighth. This was
36:05
Speaker 2: after the Martins were last seen, but before they were
36:07
Speaker 2: officially reported missing, and the taxi was apparently there for
36:11
Speaker 2: about an hour. It seems like due to a miscommunication,
36:15
Speaker 2: this sighting was not reported to the authorities for months,
36:18
Speaker 2: by which point it was more difficult to do a
36:20
Speaker 2: follow up investigation with the local cab companies. Well. In
36:24
Speaker 2: June of nineteen fifty nine, when Donald finally traveled to
36:27
Speaker 2: Portland and visited the house, he claimed that income tax papers,
36:31
Speaker 2: a bank ledger book, and other financial documents belonging to
36:35
Speaker 2: his father were no longer inside his desk and had
36:38
Speaker 2: gone missing. If Donald is telling the truth that, I'm
36:41
Speaker 2: not sure what to make of this. Did the people
36:44
Speaker 2: who were responsible for the Martins disappearance strive all the
36:46
Speaker 2: way to Portland to search their house? If so, what
36:50
Speaker 2: were they looking for. Did Kenneth have potentially incriminating evidence
36:54
Speaker 2: against someone in Hood River County? Once again, if Kenneth
36:57
Speaker 2: had traveled there for a meeting because he dirt on someone,
37:01
Speaker 2: I just don't understand why he would bring his family along.
37:05
Speaker 3: He wouldn't. This is so ridiculous. I think when you
37:08
Speaker 3: look at the age of his kids. This isn't like
37:10
Speaker 3: we've got our adult kids with us and we're all
37:12
Speaker 3: going as a family front to confront this individual on
37:15
Speaker 3: either a pregnancy or an underground gay relationship, whatever it
37:20
Speaker 3: might be. It just seems not plausible. I also wonder
37:26
Speaker 3: how much Donald knew his father. He had been pretty
37:29
Speaker 3: estranged from them, where basically it seems like his parents
37:33
Speaker 3: were trying to, you know, reverse wire him and get
37:38
Speaker 3: him to be straight by sending him to this Christian College,
37:42
Speaker 3: sending him into the military, these kinds of things, so
37:45
Speaker 3: Donald doesn't have a relationship with them. How often was
37:48
Speaker 3: he at the home and exposed to his dad's income
37:51
Speaker 3: tax papers, bank ledger book, and financial documents. Yes, at
37:56
Speaker 3: one point his dad might have kept them in his desk,
37:58
Speaker 3: But would Donald really have the relationship with his dad
38:01
Speaker 3: to say, I know that those were there, I know
38:04
Speaker 3: exactly where he kept them and all of this. Maybe
38:07
Speaker 3: Kenneth had changed his location of those things. Maybe Kenneth
38:11
Speaker 3: had them in the car with him, like his bank
38:13
Speaker 3: ledger or something like that. So I'm wondering how much
38:17
Speaker 3: Donald can really comment on that when he doesn't have
38:20
Speaker 3: even the willingness to come pick up his sister's ashes,
38:25
Speaker 3: he really knows all of his dad's financial record placement
38:28
Speaker 3: as well.
38:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I don't know
38:32
Speaker 2: how Donald, because of his relationship, would have much knowledge
38:35
Speaker 2: of what kind of items that his father was keeping
38:37
Speaker 2: inside his desks. So it is kind of strange that
38:39
Speaker 2: he was able to point out specific items that he
38:42
Speaker 2: noticed were missing. But at the same time, I still
38:45
Speaker 2: wonder about the appearance of the black taxi at the
38:47
Speaker 2: house and how it fits into things. I mean, I
38:50
Speaker 2: guess it could be a red herring that maybe it
38:52
Speaker 2: parked in the neighborhood because it was picking up someone
38:54
Speaker 2: else there and has nothing to do with the case.
38:57
Speaker 2: But it makes me wonder why someone would make a
38:59
Speaker 2: special trip to Portland after the family were already presumably dead,
39:03
Speaker 2: and what they thought they were going to find in
39:05
Speaker 2: the residence.
39:06
Speaker 3: And there for an hour. That's a really long time,
39:09
Speaker 3: even if you were picking somebody else up, like who
39:11
Speaker 3: what taxi drivers like, I'll sit here for an hour
39:14
Speaker 3: and wait for you, you know, Like there had to
39:16
Speaker 3: be something going on in the neighborhood.
39:20
Speaker 1: As for Donald himself, I'm really not sure what to
39:23
Speaker 1: make of him. If he was the one who orchestrated
39:26
Speaker 1: his family's murders, I suppose he could have enlisted Wayne's
39:29
Speaker 1: help to find someone to carry out the crime while
39:32
Speaker 1: Donald remained to New York. It would be one thing
39:35
Speaker 1: if the family went missing in Portland, but they disappeared
39:38
Speaker 1: after traveling to a location sixty miles away, and I'm
39:42
Speaker 1: not sure how Donald could have known that they would
39:44
Speaker 1: be there on that particular day, unless he's somehow arranged
39:48
Speaker 1: for Wayne to lure them But if Donald is innocent,
39:51
Speaker 1: it's possible that because of his strained relationship with his family,
39:55
Speaker 1: he was legitimately indifferent to them going missing, which would
39:59
Speaker 1: explain is lack attitude towards the whole situation and unwillingness
40:03
Speaker 1: to travel to Oregon to assist with the search efforts.
40:06
Speaker 1: I guess Donald's involvement would all depend on motive. Yes,
40:10
Speaker 1: he stood to be the sole beneficiary of the family's estate,
40:13
Speaker 1: but it wasn't a particularly large amount. Even if he
40:17
Speaker 1: was on bad terms with his parents, it's still pretty
40:20
Speaker 1: extreme for him to murder all of his younger sisters.
40:23
Speaker 1: It's alleged that the main reason Donald became a strange
40:26
Speaker 1: from his family and moved to the East Coast was
40:28
Speaker 1: because they found out that he was gay, But in
40:31
Speaker 1: spite of this, he still wound up marrying a woman
40:33
Speaker 1: and starting his own family. You'd almost think that with
40:36
Speaker 1: his family no longer hanging over him, Donald would have
40:39
Speaker 1: been less motivated to stay in the closet. But again,
40:43
Speaker 1: this was the nineteen fifties, and for all we know,
40:45
Speaker 1: perhaps Donald was actually bisexual. It's obvious the detective Graven
40:50
Speaker 1: suspected Donald of being involved. Who was unable to build
40:54
Speaker 1: up a case against him, and faced resistance from other
40:57
Speaker 1: members of law enforcement who did not want to take
40:59
Speaker 1: this end me Further, I'm not so sure this was
41:02
Speaker 1: an intentional cover up to protect the killers. I think
41:05
Speaker 1: it just stems from the fact that Lester, Kenneth Price,
41:08
Speaker 1: and Roy Light had connections to Clifford Slim Bennett and
41:12
Speaker 1: certain people feared that a thorough investigation might cause a
41:15
Speaker 1: snowball effect, which could open up a major count of
41:18
Speaker 1: worms and expose corruption for other criminal activities in the area.
41:23
Speaker 1: So they felt it was in their best interest for
41:25
Speaker 1: this part of the investigation to be shut down, even
41:28
Speaker 1: if it meant that a murdered family would not receive justice.
41:32
Speaker 3: I think you can look at law enforcement in two
41:35
Speaker 3: lenses here, like I think as in episode one, I
41:38
Speaker 3: think you could have police officers who truly were convicted
41:42
Speaker 3: that this is an accident. Right, this is so silly.
41:45
Speaker 3: It's very clear that this family drove off the cliff.
41:47
Speaker 3: We have the evidence, you have the tire marks, you
41:50
Speaker 3: have the paint. Guys, this is an accident. They went
41:53
Speaker 3: off the cliff. They're not from here. That happens, right,
41:56
Speaker 3: This is a dangerous curve, whatever the event might be,
41:59
Speaker 3: and we need people to shut their mouth about this case.
42:02
Speaker 3: So I think there could be a non malicious approach
42:06
Speaker 3: to it, saying I'm confident it's an accident. So at
42:09
Speaker 3: that point, it's now my prerogative to shut down any
42:13
Speaker 3: other conversation because if it continues to have these conspiracy
42:16
Speaker 3: theories going around it, it is possible that as people
42:19
Speaker 3: peel those layers back, that they expose us in a
42:22
Speaker 3: criminal ring that has nothing to do with this case.
42:26
Speaker 3: So I could see both those things happening simultaneously.
42:30
Speaker 2: So if you want my theory, I think it does
42:33
Speaker 2: make logical sense that Price and Light were the ones
42:35
Speaker 2: who murdered the Martins and ran their station wagon off
42:38
Speaker 2: the cliff into the Columbia River, and sadly, the bodies
42:41
Speaker 2: of Kenneth, Barbara, and Barbie are still inside the submerged
42:44
Speaker 2: vehicle today. I'm really not sure if Donald or Wayne
42:48
Speaker 2: were involved in what happened, but the discovery of the
42:50
Speaker 2: stolen gun from Meyern Frank is such a huge red
42:54
Speaker 2: flag that I believe one or both of them has
42:57
Speaker 2: to be connected to this. If that GUD had been
42:59
Speaker 2: properly processed, is evidence back in nineteen fifty eight. Who
43:02
Speaker 2: knows where the investigation might have led, But overall, I
43:06
Speaker 2: can't help but think there's still a big piece of
43:08
Speaker 2: the puzzle missing here. But I'm not sure we'll ever
43:11
Speaker 2: receive full answers until the missing station wagon and the
43:14
Speaker 2: bodies of the remaining victims can be found. After all
43:17
Speaker 2: this time, I'm not sure anyone will be prosecuted for
43:20
Speaker 2: this crime, but it would be nice to bring Kenneth, Barbara,
43:23
Speaker 2: and Barbie home and lay them to rest for good.
43:27
Speaker 2: I know that over sixty five years have passed, but
43:29
Speaker 2: if you happen to have any information on the unsolved
43:32
Speaker 2: disappearance of the Martin family, please contact the appropriate authorities.
43:36
Speaker 2: Jules Ashley, any final thoughts in this case?
43:40
Speaker 3: The eeriness of this case and the tragedy of this
43:43
Speaker 3: case that you had this family of five individuals most
43:48
Speaker 3: likely getting in the car to go Christmas shopping and
43:51
Speaker 3: to explore and to get their Christmas tree. I mean,
43:53
Speaker 3: it's like the quintessential best day ever with your family
43:58
Speaker 3: and all the sudd and Kenne doesn't show up to
44:02
Speaker 3: work and the girls don't show up to school, and
44:04
Speaker 3: ultimately we find out that there's tire tracks and paint
44:07
Speaker 3: evidence that show that car went over the side of
44:11
Speaker 3: this cliff and is somewhere submerged in the water. Later,
44:15
Speaker 3: two of those babies are able to be released from
44:19
Speaker 3: that car somehow, probably because of that anchor, and their
44:22
Speaker 3: bodies are discovered, and literally there's just no sense of
44:27
Speaker 3: understanding or justice for these five individuals. Three are still missing,
44:32
Speaker 3: two were cremated. Their brother didn't even pick them up.
44:35
Speaker 3: I mean, it's almost as if their lives just disappeared
44:39
Speaker 3: and then no one thought twice about it. So it's
44:41
Speaker 3: one of those cases that is haunting. It's like they
44:44
Speaker 3: were there one day doing the most pure iconic thing
44:48
Speaker 3: you do in December, and then the next moment they're gone.
44:52
Speaker 3: To me, it seems like a crime of opportunity. These
44:55
Speaker 3: two ex convicts seem like the most likely candidates for
44:58
Speaker 3: being someone who hurt them. And you see these four
45:02
Speaker 3: girls and dad right the mom, three daughters and dad
45:07
Speaker 3: out to dinner. It's possible Dad had a lot of
45:10
Speaker 3: cash on him to get Christmas decorations or the Christmas
45:13
Speaker 3: tree or things like that, and so either a robbery
45:16
Speaker 3: or some power sexual motivation could have spurred these two
45:19
Speaker 3: men to follow the family, to get them to pull over,
45:22
Speaker 3: and then to hurt them, take the car, abandon it
45:25
Speaker 3: by pushing it off that cliff, and then walking to
45:28
Speaker 3: their residents. That seems like the most likely scenario. What
45:32
Speaker 3: throws it for a loop is that gun that's tied
45:35
Speaker 3: to Wayne and or Donald, that has very clear proof
45:39
Speaker 3: that it was used in something malicious. Blood damage to
45:43
Speaker 3: the gun, and the way that it was loaded and
45:45
Speaker 3: or used. That's the only thing that has me had
45:48
Speaker 3: with a big question mark of why and how did
45:51
Speaker 3: that gun get there? But overall, again, like I said,
45:54
Speaker 3: it's one of those cases that you're looking at. This
45:56
Speaker 3: was nineteen fifty eight and we only have two of
46:00
Speaker 3: the five individuals recovered. The car is not recovered, and
46:04
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, none of them were
46:06
Speaker 3: really honored and remembered in the way they should have been.
46:10
Speaker 3: Donald didn't even tell his family, his babies, and his
46:14
Speaker 3: grandchildren that they existed. That's how bizarre this case is
46:18
Speaker 3: so heartbreaking. Is it likely that after sixty five years
46:22
Speaker 3: we're going to get information. Probably not, But man, what
46:25
Speaker 3: a disturbing and sad case.
46:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, this case is truly truly one of the worst
46:32
Speaker 1: that I think we've heard, just because there's five members
46:35
Speaker 1: of this family and to know that we've only recovered
46:39
Speaker 1: two of them, that three of them are likely under
46:41
Speaker 1: the water, and at this point it's been so many years.
46:46
Speaker 1: Unless there's some advance in technology which makes it easier
46:50
Speaker 1: to go down one hundred feet in this murky water
46:53
Speaker 1: and potentially recover the bodies, then I think we'll get
46:57
Speaker 1: more answers because if it was gunshot that had killed
47:01
Speaker 1: the girls, Susan and Virginia, we don't know. All we
47:05
Speaker 1: know is that a tech said that there was holes
47:07
Speaker 1: in the skull which could have been gunshot wounds, but
47:09
Speaker 1: it wasn't mentioned by the medical examiner. And as far
47:13
Speaker 1: as what happened here, I agree with Ashley. I think
47:15
Speaker 1: that the most likely scenario is that Light and Hunt
47:19
Speaker 1: are responsible and that it was opportunistic, whether the motivation
47:23
Speaker 1: was sexual or financial or mixed motivation, because there was
47:27
Speaker 1: two perpetrators the gun. The gun is just the one
47:31
Speaker 1: thing I think that the whole Wayne Donald angle, there's
47:35
Speaker 1: a lot there. It's hard to ignore it because of
47:39
Speaker 1: the presence of the gun. I think even though the gun,
47:42
Speaker 1: they didn't recover it and return it to the department
47:45
Speaker 1: store which Donald supposedly had stolen it from, or a
47:48
Speaker 1: sporting goods store that they didn't return it that I
47:51
Speaker 1: think it is possible that even though Kenneth was super honest,
47:54
Speaker 1: they'd paid for these items, So anything that he recovered
47:58
Speaker 1: after the fact, technically they would have purchased. So maybe
48:02
Speaker 1: he found the gun and maybe it was something that
48:04
Speaker 1: he kept in the car and it was something that
48:07
Speaker 1: opportunistically Light or Price had used against them. That's the
48:12
Speaker 1: only way I can think that the gun could be
48:15
Speaker 1: factored in other than Donald and Orwayne being involved in
48:21
Speaker 1: a murder conspiracy with Lightham Price.
48:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is such a strange case that kind of
48:28
Speaker 2: threw me for a loop when I started researching it
48:31
Speaker 2: just over five years ago, because, like I mentioned earlier,
48:34
Speaker 2: I read about this on the Charlie Project about ten
48:36
Speaker 2: years ago. Read there some reason there didn't seem too
48:39
Speaker 2: much there. It just seemed to be a standard case
48:41
Speaker 2: of a family that was driving accidentally crashed their vehicle
48:44
Speaker 2: into a body of water, and even though only two
48:48
Speaker 2: of the victims' bodies were recovered, it seemed obvious to
48:50
Speaker 2: me that the station wagon and the three missing victims
48:53
Speaker 2: were still down there somewhere, and it was probably nothing
48:56
Speaker 2: more than a tragic accident. But then I started reading
48:58
Speaker 2: about it on Wikipedia many years later in twenty nineteen,
49:02
Speaker 2: and reading new newspaper articles, and I decided to check
49:05
Speaker 2: out this book, Echoes of Distant Water. I just made
49:08
Speaker 2: me look at the case in a different light, because
49:10
Speaker 2: until then I had no idea about the sighting of
49:13
Speaker 2: the two men who were ex cons, I had no
49:15
Speaker 2: idea about the discovery of the gun, and it made
49:17
Speaker 2: me totally change my mind on it. I now believe
49:20
Speaker 2: that the family were the victims of foul play, but
49:22
Speaker 2: it's so hard to figure out how these events could
49:25
Speaker 2: have carried out. I do believe that Price and Light
49:29
Speaker 2: followed the family out away from the diner, had them
49:32
Speaker 2: pull over, and then proceeded to kill them and then
49:35
Speaker 2: run their station wagon with their bodies inside, off the cliff,
49:38
Speaker 2: which was in the opposite direction of where the family
49:41
Speaker 2: was heading. But was it just a random crime? Did
49:43
Speaker 2: these two cons happen across by the family by pure chance,
49:47
Speaker 2: or was this premeditated where Donald and Wayne or both
49:51
Speaker 2: of them involved. If it wasn't for the discovery of
49:53
Speaker 2: the gun, then I would have no reason to believe
49:56
Speaker 2: either of them wouldn't be involved. I just assumed that
49:58
Speaker 2: this was just some sort of rob gone wrong. But
50:01
Speaker 2: the fact that it was allegedly stolen by Donald all
50:04
Speaker 2: those years earlier, and that Wayne could have had it
50:06
Speaker 2: is just too much of a coincidence, unless, like Jules said,
50:10
Speaker 2: it's an explanation that Kenneth found the gun years after
50:13
Speaker 2: the fact and just kept it in the car and
50:15
Speaker 2: these criminals decided to be opportunists and use it in
50:18
Speaker 2: the commission of the murder. It's just too hard to
50:21
Speaker 2: overlook that this gun would have a connection to the
50:24
Speaker 2: surviving member of the Martin family. But again, because Donald
50:27
Speaker 2: was living in New York and it would have been
50:29
Speaker 2: so hard for him to track his family's movements back
50:32
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty eight, I have no idea how he
50:35
Speaker 2: would have hired these two men to kill his family.
50:37
Speaker 2: And it does seem a bit more plausible that it
50:39
Speaker 2: could have been Wayne because he was living in the area,
50:42
Speaker 2: But again, what motive. We have always had his speculation
50:46
Speaker 2: about Wayne possibly being gay or possibly being blackmailed because
50:51
Speaker 2: he was the father of Barbie's unborn child, even though
50:54
Speaker 2: it was never conclusively proven that she was even pregnant. So,
50:57
Speaker 2: like I said, there are some pieces of the puzzle
50:59
Speaker 2: missing here, and after all these years, I don't know
51:01
Speaker 2: if we'll ever learn the full truth about what happened,
51:04
Speaker 2: but at the very least I do hope at some
51:06
Speaker 2: point that maybe the missing station wagon and the three
51:09
Speaker 2: missing victims can be recovered and finally laid to rest.
51:14
Speaker 1: Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit
51:15
Speaker 1: about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?
51:18
Speaker 2: Yes. The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three
51:20
Speaker 2: years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like
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53:01
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