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Submission & Slavery in the Bible · Red Couch Theology

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Well, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red
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Couch Theology Podcast. This week I have a special guest
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on the episode. Angela Dunn, who's one of our
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Connection Formation pastors is actually going to be hosting the
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episode since I brought the message and we're talking about
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submission in the Bible and slavery and masters in the Bible
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and authority structures and all of these really difficult topics
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all in one episode. So without any further ado,
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let's find out a little bit more.
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Well, hello everyone, welcome to Red couch theology podcast on
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the show where I don't know, I, I had a plan on how I was going
0:43
to introduce Angela and now I'm we're talking about how
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uncomfortable this red couch is and we're troubleshooting before
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you came on to the show. So I, my head is not in the in
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the game space, but I'm on the show with Angela Dunn and so and
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she's actually, you know, host the show.
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But since she's the first time on the show, I thought, why
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don't you introduce yourself? Who are you?
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What you doing here? Well, great.
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Thanks. Thanks.
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So yeah, I'm Angela Dunn and I'm one of the Co pastors here with
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Jessica Rest as well of connection and formations.
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And I get to help people connect and get plugged into our
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community. And I do that through groups and
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events and serving and giving. And I get Jessica and I both get
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the fun task of creating spaces that feel like coming home, kind
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of like this red couch theology space.
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So and then we're also over formation and, and that's
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beautiful too. Which is this show, right?
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I mean, it occasionally ventures into the formation space.
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Sometimes it's like the nonsense department where Alex and I talk
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about nothing. But I appreciate you coming on
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and trying to deal with the the nonsense podcast that we are.
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But yeah, hey, so but yeah, like it's a strange thing to normally
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host a show then invite someone else.
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Hey, you want to come on the podcast?
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And by the way, you're hosting. Yeah, Tada, Yeah.
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So that's a slight strange transition, but yeah.
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Take it away. I will take it away.
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I'm so excited about this being my first time.
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OK, so this past week you preached on surrender and
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submission and everybody's favorite topic, especially the
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word submission. And so it was like Ephesians 5
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and 6. And you have this powerful idea
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of basically saying that submission is a power used by
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the one who submits. Yeah.
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Will you pontificate on that slightly before I take you into
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the deep waters? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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OK. So I'll just pull it up.
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Actually, why not? Since I've got my little Bible
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software going on here, I put this definition into the sermon
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here. Like, I don't know if people can
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see this. Let me pull this up a little bit
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bigger on here. So if I hover over this word
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submit, let me actually get my Greek.
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Hold tight everyone. So.
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It's big enough. For everyone to see.
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So this word submit is this this Greek word here.
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And if I hover over, it's a verb present middle participle.
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And if I open up the deeper definition of it here into B
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dag, which is like the best one of the top encyclopedias or
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dictionaries for New Testament Greek, I find our passage here,
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which is Ephesians 5. This is tiny for you all.
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Let me zoom in and you can see, 'cause they like, just like in
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English, depending on the context, words take on slightly
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different flavors. So this is these best Greek
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scholars that we have out there writing this dictionary.
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And they think that this is the particular nuance of this word
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in this context, a submission in the sense of a voluntary
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yielding in love. And so then I did a a word study
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through the entire New Testament on this word submit.
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And I concluded that you can't force anyone to submit.
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It doesn't exist. It's a voluntary action.
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So therefore, oh, and then based upon the big idea that I got to
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towards the towards the end, we're actually submission is
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taking a volition element away from an authority in a weird
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sense, in a like when you're dealing with like a negative
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authority figure. And then when it comes to
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Christ, it's a, it's an act of trust that we take, we choose to
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surrender and, or submit. So then I was like, oh, and
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that's where I was like how I wanted to find this for the
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congregation. So I gave him the Greek context
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a little bit and then said, actually, this is a power that
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we choose to wield 'cause if it's anything forced, it's
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actually subjugation. It's not submission.
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So to me, that's like, that's a, that's a different way of
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thinking about it. That's significant enough to me
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where I'm like, OK, yeah, I get to decide to do this.
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And then it actually comes with a spiritual power behind it too,
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which is kind of fun. Well, and I think that's where,
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oh, go back on. The screen here, sorry.
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That's where my like you totally upended that on its head for me
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and listening to that because I was like, wait, this is a really
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a superpower for for mature believers because to be able to
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choose and take that power back from, especially if it is like
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an evil overlord, so to speak, where you feel abused in some
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way. So to be able to take that power
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back and go, no, I'm choosing to submit.
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And I really loved your point about its first submission to
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Christ, then to other authorities.
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And then you talked about relationships between parent and
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child, husband and wives, and then also slaves and masters,
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and then just that kind of the dynamic of that kind of evil
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overlord or good master. And so so I'm just dying to ask
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you about, I know I feel like there should be a drum roll
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here. I'm dying to ask you if you'll
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dive deeper into the theology around the roles in the home and
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slavery in the Bible, because I know you touched on that a
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little bit. We I, I'm going to quote you
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here, OK. You mentioned that up to 40% of
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people were slaves in the ancient world, but that Paul
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plants kind of a time bomb and usurps the whole slave master
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system in Ephesians 6 five through 9.
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Will you? Yeah, yeah.
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So like early on in the message, I said that there was like
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landmines everywhere. Well, these are the landmines
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and you're asking me to step on them.
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So yeah. But that's what this shows for,
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I guess. So I guess we could start with
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the slavery one, since that's the one you just mentioned.
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I gave a little bit of context in the message that up to 40% of
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the of, of Roman sort of rule were slaves.
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So it was sort of an opt in model.
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Like if you just financially couldn't make ends meet or
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whatever, you would sell yourself into slavery.
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OK, So again, it's a little bit of a more volitional thing.
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Now the reason I don't want to like, oh, therefore it's not a,
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it's not a big deal. It was still pretty horrific
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because once you did that, you lost the right to vote, you lost
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the right to do anything you like.
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You chose to be subhuman almost. Oh wow.
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So it's still a pretty bad like it's not like a recipe for human
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thriving, but and you're the one you sold yourself to had 100%
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authority view. So as you can imagine, broken
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world, broken bad people, if they had slaves, they could take
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advantage of them completely. They could murder them at the
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drop of a hat if they wanted to because they were angry about
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them. So like it's still pretty
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horrific, but not quite the same in as far as like you opted into
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this and in and and it was a little bit more seen as like an
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investment. So there were really bad slave
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owners who would do those things.
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But the majority of slaves, like they, they chose who they were
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selling themselves to strategically thinking like they
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may even like, hey, like you're a slave to this person, how's
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that going for you? And like, do a little bit of
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market research before they sell themselves over.
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And then they find out, OK, no, it's not a super overly toxic
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situation. And then they would get a wage.
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They really get paid. And that part of it is they
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would then pay off their debt and then stop being a slave.
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Oh, so they could. Once they paid their debt, they
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could leave. Yeah.
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And so there's, I can't remember the term off the top of my head.
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When I was doing the research, I came across the the the phrase
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that they would use where that shows up in a lot of ancient
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Roman literature where they talked about they were working
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towards this freedom state. And it was part of the the
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conversation all over the place because like, how's it going
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with you working yourself out of debt?
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So for us, it might be like, how's it working for you paying
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off your house? Or for us it might be, you know,
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how's the American dream going? So the American dream for an
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ancient Roman slave is that you get to actually work yourself
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out of the debt and you become a free citizen of Rome.
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So very, very different than what we think of.
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So that solves part of the problem when it comes to why
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does does Paul not condemn slavery directly in this
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passage? It's part of the economic
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infrastructure. It was voluntary in one sense.
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So that takes a little bit of the edges off of the concept of
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slavery for us maybe, but it doesn't solve the problem
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completely because we want, given the culture that we live
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in, we want to be able to say, Paul, just like this was a great
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chance for you to just say this is evil, you shouldn't do it
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anymore. And he doesn't do that.
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But what he does instead, if we look down here at this passage
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to get to the second part of your question, which is what he
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does, is he, He tells his slave, the slaves to obey the earthly
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masters with respect. And essentially again, that
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submit word earlier on takes some weight into this.
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It says do it from the a sincere heart as if you're obeying to
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Christ. Again, this is a slave getting
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to take back the autonomy of choice.
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I choose to submit and I choose to be an exceptional slave in
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this context because ultimately I'm being obedient to Christ,
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not to my master. I don't obey my master.
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I made I obey Jesus and I express that by being an
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exceptional slave. That's a different way of
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thinking about and I know that the my ultimate master, who is
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Christ, even if my physical, my earthly master takes my life, my
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ultimate master has my soul secure.
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So it's like it brings a dignity to this moment.
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So there's one little deposit of this time bomb of like that's
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taking back of power, of autonomy, of dignity.
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And so he he makes some challenges to this a slave, but
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then he says, and masters treat your slaves in the same way,
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like surrender to them. So this is so he doesn't say
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slavery, slavery is evil. You shouldn't do it ever again.
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But he what he says, he raises the bar of you are we are all on
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equal playing field as as surrendered and submitted
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completely to Jesus Christ. And then as theologians and
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followers of Jesus meditate on a scripture like this throughout
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the rest of history. Over time, you get to like
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William Wilberforce who read who's meditating and saturating
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in this text. And he's like, oh, but like the
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implications of this is slavery is bad and we're all in the
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equal playing field. And then because of the economic
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systems, he's able to start lobbying.
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And it's in an era where they can maybe tip the scales to
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actually outlaw slavery. So that's what I mean by time
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bomb. It's texts like this that just
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work its way into the body of Christ.
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As generations go by, and as that sort of flower blossoms,
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eventually it becomes intolerable to allow slavery
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anymore, which is pretty cool. That's amazing.
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That's amazing. Well, so how I I'm dying to also
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ask like when you talk about roles in a home.
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Yeah. Is that are you are are you
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separating that out from slavery or is that within the same
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context? Oh yeah, so that's a good
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question. Like in the ancient world in
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first 1st century Judaism and Rome, man yeah like wives would
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have been treated maybe a slight notch above a slave, but not
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much. Yeah, pretty similarly.
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Yeah, which is like, we can't fathom that world in our
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context, but yeah, there is. So is similar kind of a thing
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there maybe. And so this invitation for wives
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to submit to to their husbands that they're like, yeah, duh.
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That's how it works here. You're stating the obvious.
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Yeah, but but the same mechanism is at play in the sense that
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Paul, because of the work of Jesus, is offering a wife in 1st
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century Rome, is offering the wife a new person to submit to,
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which is himself. Yeah.
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And then said like the byproduct of that might express itself in
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her marriage, but you no longer submit to your husband.
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Hard stop. You submit to Jesus and then
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express that in your submission in all things to your husband,
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which gives her some dignity back, which gives her these
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kinds of things back. And then same thing with
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husbands. Like, you know, he just blows
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them out of the water. Like he's not even, he doesn't
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pull any punches. Like we think that is like,
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yeah, I love your wife, duh. Obviously like that.
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This is a better way of doing marriage in that context.
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Like he's really heavy-handed with the husband here.
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Like give your life for her, make her holy, cleansing her,
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you know, so you create in the way that you love her.
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You're going to create a wife that is more radiant and
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brilliant and beautiful and all these things by just like Christ
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does with the church. And so he just raises the bar
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through the stratosphere for husbands in a 1st century
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context. And then we read a passage like
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this and we're like, EW, it's icky.
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It's talking about surrender and submission.
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And we're like, it's just so foreign to us that we don't
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realize it's almost doing the opposite than what we think it's
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doing here. It's not putting women in their
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place and and giving power to husbands.
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It's the quite opposite. It's actually leveling the play
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like field under Christ. So it's more of a mutuality
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under Christ. Yes.
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And so like here's the here's the tension a little bit.
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Theologically, even for our day and age, there are many people
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who believe that that's this is still a horror hierarchy that
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should function in the home. And that's actually a completely
17:15
viable reading of this passage. So it may mean today wives
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submit to your husband's as as to the Lord.
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And that's the most like obvious surface reading of this passage.
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So I think that's a totally viable application of Ephesians
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5. Yeah.
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Is that that God? And he even uses some exam
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examples that precede the Roman Empire, precede Jewish
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structures. He calls back to Genesis like,
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you know, this is how it was in the beginning.
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And like husbands leave, you know, will cleave to their wife,
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all that. So he's calling back an older
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model where Adams made first, then Eve.
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And so so you start to be like, is he actually saying that if
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there's a hierarchy here? Well ish potentially now I there
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that's one solid like trying to honor the scriptures reading of
18:14
this passage and I think you can apply that way in your marriage
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as long as you remember that submission to Christ overrules
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all else and when when the rubber meets the road.
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If you read this text accurately, even if you choose
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to live in this hierarchy thing, the name of the game for a
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husband is to out surrender and out submit his wife.
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Like the first one to submission wins the game.
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Even if you're in a compliment, this is the theological term.
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For those of you out there, a complimentary and household
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where the husband gets the final say, the name of the game is
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still unequivocally from this passage that the that your goal
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is to out surrender to Jesus and beat your wife to the punch when
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it comes to submission and vice versa.
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Your wife is trying to like, win that same game.
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Yeah, yeah. So OK, it's just becomes a
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semantics game actually, which is why some theologians believe
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that a modern expression of this given our cultural context, is
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that like, why play the semantics game?
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Let's just treat us like we're on level playing field under,
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under Christ's authority. And then like, if you're better
19:30
at handling the bills than me, then have at it.
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And if I'm better at doing the like family devotion thing, then
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have at it. Like why play the semantics
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games of the first world thing? And that's theologically
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speaking, I tend to live in that space, but practically in my own
19:51
home. Allison just prefers that I kind
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of take the final charge on some of this stuff.
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So even though theologically I'm in one's place, functionally we
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tend to have a little bit more of a complimentarian vibe
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because that's how she prefers it.
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Yeah, which is submission on your part.
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Yeah, because that's how she prefers it.
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Yeah, although there's days where I'm like, I wish I was a
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complimentarian and aggressively and I could just say how things
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should be. Here it is.
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It's. Just laid out anyway, is that
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answer your question? No, that does answer my question
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because because I was trying to figure out how that mutuality
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fit in there. Because I know, I know in our
20:34
household often times like we've been married almost 32 years and
20:40
got married really young, around 22.
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And the thing was, is that we've kind of looked back over huge
20:50
decisions and even what I would call medium size impact
20:55
decisions in life and gone oh, how did how did we make that?
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And every single time when we've reviewed it, it's it was this
21:06
mutuality of submission. And for instance, we lived back
21:12
east and worked back east. And JD wanted to come back home
21:18
and to Colorado and move here again.
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And he had permission from his boss.
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But I was like, no, I'm staying here.
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I'm I want to stay here because of XY and Z.
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And so he literally prayed and waited a year for me to change
21:35
my mind. And, and there were
21:37
conversations during that time. It wasn't like we weren't
21:40
talking about it. We did, we often get out a giant
21:43
whiteboard and do pros and cons and you know, and do that and
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we're like, Lord, what do we do? But it was was it was this kind
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of system of mutual submission in that he knew I wasn't ready
21:57
and God hadn't showed me yet. And once the Lord showed me, it
22:01
was very quick, like at the end of that year, the Lord just
22:06
showed me in a very particular way.
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And I knew it was him. And I was like, OK, Lord, then
22:09
we're moving back. And I had a piece about it.
22:12
And certainly JD was relieved. But it took a year of him
22:17
patiently praying and waiting and having these conversations
22:20
with me and, and hearing my voice to go Nope, Nope, Nope.
22:26
And and waiting on the Spirit. And then once we did it, it was
22:30
like, OK, yeah, we're all in. And we've, we've looked back and
22:34
so many of our decisions have been that way.
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If I'm I know exactly, hey, the Lord's leading us here and he's
22:40
like, no, then I sit and wait until the Lord and we have this
22:44
conversation, those 10. It's holding that tension that
22:47
you often talk about. It's the beautiful and the
22:51
tension as well. And I think healthy biblical
22:57
expression of like authority structures, regardless of your
23:03
theology on this topic, that's still how it needs to function.
23:10
And, and I think it seems pretty clear to me, regardless of
23:15
whether you're a complementarian theologically or an egalitarian
23:17
theology theologically, I think I defined that already.
23:22
Egalitarian means that like there is no, there's no biblical
23:30
hierarchy between men and women in any sphere.
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And you can be partially egalitarian, meaning there is no
23:37
hierarchy in the Bible between men and women in the in the
23:42
church, but there is in the home.
23:44
That's a partially egalitarian. A full egalitarian would be like
23:48
it's equal in all spheres. And then the complimentarian
23:51
says, no, God made one of the things that's different about
23:57
men and women is that God has placed the mantle of authority
24:01
on a man, not on a woman. And so regardless of where where
24:06
you're at there, the text is still clear that the power is in
24:12
submission. So if you want to be power
24:14
hungry, submit away. Submit away.
24:17
Surrender away. Yeah, like that's the power of
24:20
this in this text. Like it, he ties it back to
24:24
spiritual authority and power comes to the one who submits the
24:27
most. And this is what blows my mind.
24:32
As we study the gospel and like we look at revelation, the way
24:37
that Jesus accomplishes the gospel is by leveraging this
24:40
power. So like the biggest boss known
24:45
to history, the one who created the entire universe, leverages
24:49
this power to accomplish salvation.
24:53
So if you want to be the bigger boss, surrender.
24:57
More like it doesn't matter your theology.
25:00
At this point, right, no, it, it is the surrender more and, and
25:04
it's so counterintuitive to us as human beings, like when
25:10
somebody cuts us off in the middle of the freeway when we
25:14
feel like we we've been dissed or or something unjust has
25:18
happened. We, I think just absolutely
25:22
raised to I'm going to get you. I'm going to I, I, I, I need
25:26
justice right now. Sometimes vengeance is where
25:30
people go. But I think in you just pointing
25:34
out like this is truly a superpower.
25:37
It's a superpower because it's counterintuitive.
25:41
It requires the Spirit of God, I believe to, to enable you to
25:47
even walk it out, but then on top of it to be able to, like
25:52
you said, like you want to be the big boss, submit, submit,
25:55
submit, surrender, surrender. Yeah, it's very counterintuitive
26:00
and I think the reason why it works, so it's not just a a high
26:05
and lofty idea that Jesus deposits in human history.
26:10
This is like, you guys should try and do this.
26:13
It actually works very pragmatically if you think about
26:17
it, when it comes to authority. So let's just imagine the worst
26:21
possible authoritarian figure. Mm Hmm.
26:27
Like like we read about in the Book of Revelation when we're in
26:30
the series of Revelation, you see this dragon figure in these
26:35
passages about the dragon, when it talks about Jesus defeating
26:38
the dragon, he's actually consumed by the dragon.
26:41
And that the only, when you boil it down, an authoritarian
26:45
figure, the last weapon they have to use is fear and death.
26:50
Oh. Yeah.
26:52
They can threaten you verbally but it like what it's comes down
26:56
to it. The fear of being abused and
26:59
then ultimately killed is the only weapon they have to play.
27:03
And so if you're like, I'm living eternally because of the
27:05
gospel and my authority is Jesus and I stand my ground.
27:11
It's what allows movements like Doctor Martin Luther King's,
27:17
like shift of the entire system in here in America through
27:21
nonviolent resistance. They in the face of death and
27:25
abuse, they just chose to stand their ground.
27:30
It's a power that undid a whole cultural movement.
27:35
And it's a power that God uses to undo the power of death, undo
27:41
Satan's authority in the world. So it is a powerful weapon.
27:45
And and Satan's like, I'm going to kill you and you're like,
27:48
fine. And he's like, that's my last
27:52
game. That's the last thing I had to
27:54
offer to threaten you with. It's it's a pretty cool thing.
27:59
Well, so I'm curious, have you always felt that way as far as
28:05
personally, like I, I don't fear death.
28:09
Like once you met Christ, were you like, I don't fear death.
28:12
I don't fear these things. So.
28:14
So you know, yeah. Like what's been your, what's
28:18
been your progression? That's a great question.
28:23
I, I mean, I just think spending a lot of time learning and
28:27
reading about Jesus and you start to see how he actually he,
28:34
well, I think maybe the gateway, the gateway drug for me and some
28:39
of these things is to see how counterintuitive a lot of Jesus
28:44
teachings, he says it really explicitly.
28:46
And I don't know, maybe this is actually Paul, but the New
28:51
Testament teaches like the first shall be last, the last shall be
28:53
first. You're like, OK, that's upside
28:54
down. And then you start to see that
28:56
kind of like upside down mechanism all over the place.
28:59
You start to realize like in ancient Judaism, the first born
29:04
son gets all the power and then God's like, I'm not playing that
29:08
game anymore. Second born, second born, second
29:10
born, second born, second born and second born.
29:12
And you're like, what's he trying to tell me?
29:15
He's like, I pick the the down and outs.
29:17
I pick the second born. I the whole story of David and
29:21
Saul, Saul is the, and the, I the epitome of the ideal leader.
29:27
He's taller than everyone. He's stronger than any of
29:30
everyone. He's good looking.
29:33
Like obviously he should be the boss of everyone.
29:35
And God's like, see, see how that goes.
29:38
And he's like hiding behind boxes and he's scared of Goliath
29:43
and he's got all this like emotional trauma and they're
29:46
like, this is not growing well. And then the crowning of David,
29:51
all these brothers, big, strong, tall brothers.
29:54
And God's like, where's the runt, right?
29:57
I pick him. Right.
29:59
And so over and over and again, you just start to see, and then
30:03
as you live in the Scriptures and see God doing this same
30:06
technique over and over again of choosing the weaker, choosing
30:10
the surrender, choosing the little, telling us that the
30:15
child is the greatest in the Kingdom of God, on and on and
30:19
on. And eventually you're like, oh,
30:22
I mean, I'm 41 years into it, and I feel like maybe over the
30:26
last three years, I'm starting to like, finally catch on.
30:30
I love it that there's this different way of doing this.
30:33
Yes. No, it totally does.
30:35
It totally does. I love that.
30:38
Well, so I I also would like to ask, how has submission become a
30:43
spiritual practice in your own life?
30:44
Like how have you made that a spiritual practice?
30:47
Because I know that's one of the things you challenged us on is a
30:50
congregation. I think for me, I didn't realize
31:00
I was getting this lesson, but for me it started in high school
31:04
when I was first starting to lead worship.
31:08
I was just learning guitar and there was no one else in my
31:14
little youth group that led like play guitar.
31:16
So I started like playing a few songs for our youth group and
31:19
then that started to snowball and I started building a team
31:22
around it and the worship, the main worship pastor for big
31:26
church. He actually, I don't know why he
31:29
did this, but just maybe a heart for developing leaders.
31:35
He met with our little worship team and he gave up me a this
31:39
little pamphlet He gave me specifically this little
31:41
pamphlet that was written by an associate pastor.
31:47
I think it was titled How to be an Associate Pastor.
31:49
Oh wow, it was very creative. I'm like maybe 16 or 17 years
31:55
old, and I don't remember much from that pamphlet.
31:59
But I do remember this overarching concept that the
32:05
mission of a, of an associate pastor or anyone who's not the
32:10
boss boss is to learn the vision of the leader so well that you
32:18
can articulate it as good or better than they can.
32:23
And then use every ounce of authority that you have been
32:28
given to champion that vision to anyone you can talk to about it.
32:34
And I, I was like, this is how it, what it means to be a
32:38
minister of the gospel under authority.
32:42
And I just started applying that at my job at Safeway really.
32:47
And I was 16 years old. I'm a bagger at Safeway.
32:51
And so I would like ask questions that he'd never, and
32:54
like my, the, the store manager had never really been asked by a
32:57
bagger. Like, why are we doing it this
32:59
way? Like, how can I learn better
33:00
from this? And this.
33:01
And I just became like the Rockstar bagger and then he
33:05
promoted me and promoted me and promoted me until I was like
33:09
doing all these different roles. And then every job I've ever
33:12
done, that's been my goal is to learn how to submit to an
33:16
authority figure. And I tried to choose leaders
33:20
that were semi healthy and that I believed in their vision.
33:22
But it's become such a part of my life that it's how I've
33:28
gotten every promotion I've gotten.
33:29
Like when a leader finds someone who's, like, trying to download
33:32
the vision and then champion it, they're like, yeah, I'm going to
33:34
give you more and more authority.
33:36
So it was like, I didn't know that it was a power I was
33:38
leveraging, but it's a power that I've been leveraging since
33:41
I was 16. Oh.
33:42
It's amazing. That's a partial answer.
33:45
That's a long winded partial answer to your question.
33:47
But another one is because I have a theology that's tends to
33:56
be more egalitarian is choosing not to play that card in my
34:00
marriage, which is complicated because sometimes she just wants
34:05
me to play that card because she doesn't want to have to deal
34:07
with the issue either. But so trying to just work
34:13
through relational lines rather than authoritarian lines.
34:19
But it those are, I don't think I do this perfectly at all.
34:25
And so it's a constant learning process.
34:28
What about you? Oh wow, I think that for me
34:34
practicing I like. I'll just confess I really like
34:38
the word surrender better than submission.
34:43
I grew up in more of AI would say egalitarian home, but they
34:51
didn't necessarily call it that. My mom was actually the
34:54
spiritual head of the family and and my, you know, they just
35:01
separated roles and did things that based on more on their
35:04
personality and gifting. But I have to say that just
35:11
trying to get to the place internally in my spirit of being
35:19
able to go. Lord, if you're asking me to do
35:21
this, whether it was my parent asking me or later on, you know,
35:27
JD asking me, then can I say, how can I say yes to you?
35:33
And what's blocking me from a yes?
35:36
Once I determined, yeah, you are asking me to do this.
35:41
And, and I think God has been so kind to me so often when I've
35:48
been hesitant because of fear or the unknown or other things, he
35:54
will often soften my heart in a different way by reminding me of
35:58
his love for someone. So if it, if it's related to an
36:04
act or a service towards someone and I'm nervous or anxious about
36:08
it or afraid, like just a few months ago, he, he just, he was
36:13
like, I know you're afraid and you don't want to kind of get
36:16
out of your comfort zone here and talk to somebody you don't
36:19
know. However, I really love that
36:23
person. And I had this overwhelming
36:25
sense like sit on my chest of how much he loved this
36:29
particular woman that I had just passed in a hall and it's some
36:32
random building and he's like, no, go back and talk to her and
36:36
you know, and encourage her. And I was like, I don't know
36:40
her. And I literally sat in the car
36:42
for 5 minutes going, Lord, Are you sure?
36:44
I mean, is this really you? This could be me, right?
36:46
You know, that that whole escape free, you know, but but he just
36:53
he's been so gracious when I'm really struggling to be able to
36:58
kind of come in a side door and say, Oh, but Angela, I love this
37:02
person. Would you do it?
37:04
Because I love them and they, I want them to know it.
37:07
And I'm like, OK, Lord, yeah. So no, but what I think that's
37:11
interesting is I hear you tell that story.
37:14
It actually, I mean it's, it's an illustration of this exact
37:18
concept. He's asking you and because
37:22
you're submitted to him and trust him, it's a bridge to you
37:28
being able to like do something that's difficult or hard.
37:31
And so which I think is calls back to the previous sermon,
37:36
which we didn't get to do a podcast about where like I was
37:39
talking about the way of Jesus is designed by his love.
37:43
So I think, you know, this is a related question maybe to what
37:48
you asked me about how do we use the spiritual practice of
37:52
submission? Well, one is to you have to
37:55
trust Jesus. Like if you don't trust him,
37:58
then obviously you're not going to submit to him.
38:00
So like testing his character by trying to obey him a couple
38:05
times here and there, like and see how that worked.
38:08
And like, does he see you learning about who he is and his
38:12
character and his love and how it's expressed to his people?
38:16
And over time he just grows. Your trust in his goodness for
38:21
you grows. And then when he says, you know,
38:24
hey, I'm gonna invite you into like, submitting to your husband
38:28
or submitting to your boss, who's kind of a jerk.
38:32
You're like, really? But but he's so good to me.
38:39
And he's shown his love to me so many times time and time and
38:42
time again. And he did it so much to the
38:44
point that he he died on the cross for me.
38:47
OK, OK, I'm willing to submit it.
38:51
I think that's a prerequisite. Trusting the love of Jesus and
38:55
the love of God in your life is a prerequisite to surrendering
38:58
to something else or submitting to or obeying Him in another
39:02
area of my life. Yeah, I absolutely agree.
39:06
I, I really, I've been a performer most of my life, as
39:12
you know. And being a performer, it
39:17
requires, at least in the music industry, a lot of leanings
39:22
toward perfectionism. Like when you get out and you're
39:25
singing in an opera, you, you, you really can't mess up and so.
39:33
Not at the level that you were doing.
39:34
Yeah, not, not at that level. And although I have made-up a
39:38
few Italian words before, so anyway, but I think from my
39:45
early childhood I really had this sense and even my teenage
39:51
years when I started singing, I had this sense that I needed to
39:55
really show God that I loved him and prove it and and by by being
40:01
super obedient. And by following a lot of rules
40:05
and, and it was pretty legalistic, but I think, you
40:09
know, there was some beautiful growth in there too.
40:11
However, when I moved here to Colorado, I met this amazing
40:16
friend who's still an amazing friend today.
40:19
And she had this different view of God's love.
40:24
Mine was more of a that authoritarian type and kind of
40:28
more out of punishment whether you performed or didn't perform
40:32
well. My parents weren't like that,
40:34
but somehow I just picked it up. But her family came from more of
40:39
a, Oh no, God's good and he loves us and other people so
40:43
much. And she gave me this phrase one
40:46
day. She said, Angela, God's heart
40:48
for you is good. His heart for you is good and
40:53
not really upended my world because I had never.
40:57
I knew he loved me but it was that old adage of I knew he
41:00
loved me but did he like me? Totally.
41:03
So and that really revolutionized my thinking.
41:06
And from there he just kept inviting me in more and more to
41:10
his love. And Oh yeah, I like you too.
41:13
And you don't have to be like, that's why I came is so you
41:17
don't have to be punished, you know?
41:19
And so anyway. Yeah, yeah.
41:24
Once you trust that love, then I think he earns the right to ask
41:29
some hard things of us also for our good.
41:31
But like some of the things that the way of Jesus invites us into
41:36
are scary and they our whole world is shouting at us.
41:41
That's a dangerous thing to do, like, like submitting to a bad
41:44
authority, which this text is actually fairly lightweight in
41:48
that category. Like you're hoping that both of
41:50
this husband and this wife, in this 1st century context or
41:53
following Jesus, they're part of the church.
41:55
The master and the slave are part of this church that he's
41:58
writing this letter to. So hopefully they're being nice
42:00
to each other. But the other passages I read
42:02
from like Peter, where he's like, yeah, submit to Rome and
42:06
submit to a bad master who's really evil.
42:09
That was like. Oh really?
42:13
And then the only way you get to obeying a very difficult ask
42:18
like that is to trust the love of Jesus enough to say, yes, I
42:27
will surrender even this and yeah, so I don't want to be
42:32
around the Bush. Somebody asks The Bible gives us
42:35
are terrifying and counterintuitive and our our
42:38
bodies and our minds just start shouting at us.
42:42
No, no, no danger, danger, danger.
42:44
This is not the way to go. And the only way to heal that is
42:47
to really increase your understanding, your heart or
42:51
your meditation on the love of God.
42:53
Yeah, so. That's beautiful.
42:57
Yeah. Wow.
43:01
Yeah. So they we stepped on some
43:03
landmines. Is there anything else, Any
43:05
other landmines that you want me to step on?
43:08
You know, I, I don't think necessarily landmines, but I
43:12
would, I would love to ask you how like has there been a time
43:19
when God has asked you to surrender something or submit
43:24
that you had to really wrestle it out or, or was it like, Nope,
43:30
I just just going to do it? So many I'm trying to think of a
43:39
good useful story. So I think all right, I think
43:50
this will be useful. This is so part of it is in my
43:56
in my marriage. So and hang with me because this
44:01
sounds strange, but surrendering my marriage and that it would be
44:04
good or or not good or whatever. So I remember maybe 15 years
44:12
ago, Alice and I were having some struggles.
44:16
That's who we went and saw marriage counselor and I was
44:20
sitting there in this marriage counselor's office and we're
44:24
talking through whatever the issue was at the whatever, what
44:26
the whatever the flavor was for that season of why we were
44:29
wrestling and fighting over issues and just not coming to
44:32
the same on the same page. And this this counselor.
44:36
And I think I'm like in this moment, I'm like talking about
44:39
how like kind I am and like, or like I'm acquiescing to my wife
44:44
and it's just her decision and it's fine.
44:46
And like this is more my knee jerk response to my marriage is
44:49
to like what she says goes and I'm just going to bend over
44:52
backwards and this sort of thing.
44:53
And like, and so I think I'm coming out looking like the rock
44:58
star of the marriage and she's the one that's too man, like
45:00
whatever it is. So and then he turns to me and
45:04
he's like, you've got to stop caring about what your wife
45:07
thinks. And I'm like, she's.
45:10
Sitting next to me, do you see her?
45:13
She's right there. She's going to hear you say
45:16
that. And my wife starts nodding.
45:21
Really. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
45:24
whoa, whoa. And like, tell me more about
45:29
like this because she's resonating with that.
45:32
And what it came down to it is that I have some strong
45:36
codependent tendencies where my world isn't OK unless she's
45:42
singing my praise because of how awesome I am as a husband.
45:46
And the, the, the unfortunate part of that is I think I'm
45:52
bending over backwards to serve my wife and acquiesce to her
45:56
desires. And meanwhile, she wants me.
45:59
I'm not actually doing that. What I'm doing is trying to get
46:03
my world to be back in order again.
46:05
I want her to be happy so that I can be happy.
46:08
So therefore her happiness is equal to mine.
46:12
So the only reason I'm doing that is nothing to do with her.
46:15
It's all about me being happy. And OK, this is the, this is the
46:19
vicious cycle of codependence. And so I'm like, and she reads
46:24
right through it. She knows it's not actually for
46:26
her. She sees right through it and
46:29
sees that I'm actually trying to get something out of her.
46:33
So I like I discovered one. I was the problem in this
46:36
situation is that she wanted me to grow a spine and just be a
46:40
self, be myself, be honest with her, tell her when I'm hurting.
46:45
I would never tell her when I was hurting because that might
46:47
break her bad day. And my goal is her happiness.
46:50
Yes. So I can't be real.
46:52
Yeah. So I would just be fake, fake,
46:54
fake, fake, fake. She's like, I'm done with this
46:56
fake air and stuff. So she's like, nodding yes, stop
46:58
caring about me. And I'm like, so the surrender
47:03
part for me, and this might be helpful for some of you out
47:05
there who tends to be more in that space where you're like,
47:08
just prefer other people. Just what they say goes and
47:11
like, they'll win. And I'll just bend over
47:12
backwards. I'll become a doormat.
47:14
That's actually selfish. That's not surrender, that's not
47:19
taking a power, that's actually choosing subjugation and it's
47:25
and it's not living in yourself. So surrender for me was actually
47:28
learning what I actually felt about it.
47:32
Surrender for me was learning how to speak my mind to my wife.
47:36
And I'm so still so bad at you can ask her.
47:39
I was so bad at this still because it's so deeply entwined
47:44
in me. So I part of it is I'm seeing a
47:50
counselor to ask why I keep doing this over and over again
47:54
and why do I keep defaulting to shutting down my world, my world
47:59
to try to acquiesced to, to my wife.
48:04
And meanwhile, she's like, that's not what I want from you.
48:07
I want you to be you. I I need you to tell me how
48:09
you're actually are. Because otherwise it's not this
48:12
beautiful relationship where there's a true emotion shared
48:16
and true love shared. It's all fake because you're
48:19
just trying to get an emotional reaction out of me.
48:22
Yeah. So at the risk of being too
48:25
vulnerable on publicly on the Internet, the I'm the problem.
48:31
There you go. I but I love that and honestly,
48:37
I think that's so beautiful because I think there's a, as a
48:44
stereotype, it's, it's obviously not 100% accurate that men don't
48:49
go to counseling. And I love that you were willing
48:55
to go and that that is because I see that as also part of
48:59
community. I don't necessarily I go to a
49:03
counselor as well. So you know, you're in good
49:06
company, but I see that as part of my community to keep me kind
49:14
of out of the pitfalls that I fall into naturally, whether
49:18
it's codependency or people pleasing or something like that.
49:21
So I think that's so beautiful. And, and I love that you, you
49:27
champion your wife that way by stepping up to the plate and
49:31
going oh, OK. So yeah.
49:32
Oh, I see it now. And, and yeah, I'm going to, I'm
49:37
going to work on this. Yeah.
49:38
You know, a slightly more playful example might be this.
49:43
This last week's sermon was an act of surrender for me.
49:47
Because what you all that might not know is it had a different
49:50
title and a different idea when I wrote the series.
49:54
So when I wrote this series, the title of this past Sunday's
49:57
message was anchored to covenant relationship.
50:03
And the idea I thought I was going to preach on was it.
50:07
It had maybe like a 70% marriage talk flavor to it.
50:13
But I was like, I don't want to leave out the single folks be so
50:15
like, we all should covenant to each other, right?
50:19
So like when you're writing a series, this is one of the weird
50:21
things that I'm learning is when you write a series, you work on
50:24
it like months and months out and you don't have time to like
50:27
do a deep exegetical dive on every passage you're choosing.
50:30
You're using a little bit of your back study and the years
50:33
you've been in the Bible where you're like, yeah, this text, I
50:36
think that'll work with this topic.
50:37
OK, this text will. So you're doing a little bit of
50:39
a cursory reading and exegesis. Yeah.
50:42
So I thought, yeah, it's super healthy for everyone to be in
50:46
covenant relationships with each other.
50:49
And if even if you're not married.
50:51
And I think that that's true. Yeah.
50:53
This passage does not say that. And so, and I was like, OK,
51:00
well, then maybe I'll bring in another text.
51:01
Is there a different text that says that?
51:03
There's actually no biblical text that I can think of that
51:07
explicitly says you should covenant in the classical
51:11
biblical covenant language sense to a friend.
51:16
It has covenant to a church community maybe and covenant in
51:22
marriage and covenant to God. And so I was like, I'm on thin
51:26
biblical ice to say that this is a biblically the word of God
51:31
says covenant to your best friend.
51:34
It just maybe doesn't say that. I think it might be wise.
51:38
It might be healthy for you to do that.
51:40
Like maybe some wisdom and prudence might suggest that that
51:43
might be good. But I was like, I don't think I
51:45
can stand in a pulpit and speak as if this is the word of God.
51:48
Yeah. So then I'm like, shoot, what am
51:52
I gonna actually teach? So I do that backpedal and say,
51:55
OK, step one, what does this passage teach?
52:00
And then Step 2, is it aligned with my series that I thought I
52:05
was trying to teach for the church And I concluded, yes,
52:10
it's still an anchoring idea to submit.
52:14
So I changed the title from anchored to covenant
52:17
relationships to anchored, just anchored in submission.
52:21
And I think that that's absolutely what this text is
52:23
teaching. But I had to surrender my entire
52:26
Gen. I had a whole description.
52:27
I had AI, had a rough draft of a big idea.
52:30
I had all the stuff. So I just submit to the
52:32
scriptures because I don't think that the Bible was teaching what
52:35
I wanted it to teach. Yeah, you couldn't just keep all
52:39
your hard work. By the way, that happens so much
52:42
when I'm preaching a month in, I was like, this is what I think
52:46
I'm going to talk about. Then I start doing exegesis and
52:48
I'm like I don't know what I'm and I submit to the text.
52:53
I love that. That's amazing though.
52:56
Yeah. Submission and surrender.
52:59
Yes, it's so fun. Indeed.
53:01
Well, we're almost out of time. I don't know if there's any
53:03
final questions that you want, but.
53:04
Well, if if you have one more minute, yeah.
53:08
Oh, this is awesome. OK, so briefly, when you have
53:14
let's say the Lord's asked you to surrender something.
53:20
Has there ever been a time that he's asked you to surrender
53:23
something and it and, and the road he's taken you down has
53:28
made you feel hemden or small, although you are very tall
53:34
hemden or small. And it feels like more of a
53:37
dying process than a submission process, although I would say
53:43
that part of submission is dying to yourself.
53:45
But I, I, I think what I'm getting after is the invitation
53:50
to surrender from the Lord lead you through this dying to self
53:56
process that actually feels hemmed in.
54:00
But in the end, once you've come through it, you find that he's
54:04
actually expanded your borders, or expanded or brought healing
54:08
or brought brought you out of bondage in some way.
54:14
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean I I do think I partially
54:20
gave an example of that in like my work.
54:23
Yes. Situations where I would like
54:26
try to submit my best to my bosses, yes.
54:29
And then they just keep on promoting me in different ways,
54:32
yes. Like I didn't actually go into
54:35
it thinking that this is a great mechanism for getting
54:38
promotions, but it is. Not a pretty good.
54:40
Mechanism. As the years went by, I was
54:44
like, oh, like, yeah, like, I keep rising the ranks, for lack
54:47
of a better term, because bosses really are big fans of employees
54:52
who are obsessed with their vision.
54:54
Yes, yes. Oh yeah.
54:56
Oh yeah. Submitted to their vision,
54:58
they're like, yeah, I'll just this guy uses my language.
55:01
He knows it, He champions it everywhere in the organization.
55:04
Give him more authority. And so that's one example.
55:09
Have you ever felt though, when God asked you to submit, that
55:12
you felt like you were being crushed where it it didn't lead
55:16
to promotions and you felt like you were getting hemmed in and
55:19
boundaried and bound up and in the end it LED like the Lord do.
55:25
Allowing that to happen and inviting you into that space LED
55:29
you to freedom. Yes, let's see.
55:34
I'm trying to think some of the some of these stories.
55:36
I'm like, OK, are they, would they be OK with me telling that
55:39
story? Would they be telling that So
55:46
there like I had one boss sort of relationship that I was like,
55:55
I was starting to feel this like being hemmed in emotion and I
56:02
was like, he's he's micromanaging me.
56:05
He's like nitpicking every little detail that I do.
56:08
And I'm like, it was the because of the story I told you before,
56:11
it was the first time I'd ever encountered someone who just
56:14
didn't think I walked on water, which is also a strong motivator
56:18
when you're a young leader and you're just like every boss says
56:21
that you're the best ever. Your best thing since sliced
56:23
bread is Aaron. And so I couldn't handle the
56:26
critique. I didn't have frameworks for not
56:29
being the biggest, fastest, hardest working employee in the
56:33
in the room. And so I was just feeling like I
56:38
got to, I got to resign. I can't, I got to quit this job
56:41
because they're so mean and overlord and all this stuff.
56:48
And so, yeah, I did feel like my world was shrinking in.
56:51
And I wrestled with this for months and months and months.
56:54
And I was at one point I was meeting with a close friend and
56:58
venting about the situation. He's like, yeah, hello, Tell me
57:02
more, more about the specific situation.
57:05
And then he just in the, in the kindest way made this statement
57:11
that like opened my eyes to a reality where he said he said,
57:16
So what I hear you saying is like, you're just not a fan of
57:19
this guy leading you. Oh.
57:23
And so, yeah, like you can, you could resign or you could choose
57:29
to be LED. So one of my biggest problems
57:32
actually behind my smoke screening of like Micromanager
57:37
was he was smarter than me. And it was I hadn't considered
57:43
that as an option for my boss to be smarter than me.
57:46
Because again, all these other bosses, not that they weren't
57:49
smarter than me, I just worked hard enough that I didn't.
57:52
They have never had to correct me or they never whatever.
57:55
So I encountered someone who thought faster than I did, was
58:00
more strategic than I was, more experienced than I had and was
58:04
offering some tips and tricks on how to get better.
58:08
Never found this before this date.
58:11
And so he's like, so yeah. Like, you could just choose to
58:13
go, yeah, like, so option 1, you could go find a job where your
58:18
boss is less competent so that you can be the biggest, baddest
58:23
one in the room. Or you could choose to submit to
58:27
his leadership and become better because you have a leader who's
58:29
leading you. Wow.
58:31
And I was like, oh gosh. I guess I can't leave now.
58:36
So then I was, I was like, oh, it's just like actually my
58:39
arrogance and my pride that I'm running into.
58:41
It's not his leadership. So then I so I chose to
58:46
surrender to his leadership and see it as a gift to me as a
58:51
young leader who didn't know as much as he did, who wasn't as
58:54
smart as he was. And then suddenly the same sort
58:58
of thing happened. Then I went from going into this
59:00
cage of surrender to like, oh, this is opportunity and growth.
59:05
And sure enough, I started approaching the relationship
59:09
differently. And I was like, oh, he's like
59:10
super nice, the way he delivers his critiques.
59:14
He's not as mean as I thought he was.
59:16
It was all in my head. And then I started to then grow
59:18
and get better and learn, learn those things and then on and on.
59:21
So. Oh, I love it.
59:23
Thanks for sharing that last story.
59:25
I think that's encouraging for everybody, right?
59:28
It's awesome. All right.
59:29
Well, thank you all for tuning in and thanks for forcing me to
59:33
step on the landmines. Hopefully it's not too scary for
59:36
most folks out there, but if you have questions, you can turn
59:39
them in at Red Couch, theology.com and I don't know,
59:44
I'm not good at the actual podcast.
59:46
You said like subscribe. Do the things.
59:48
Give us the stars. Yes, all the things.
59:52
Is that what you do? Stars is that I think.
59:54
That's Google, but. I don't know how to be a
59:58
podcaster. All right, see you later.
1:00:00
Goodbye everyone.