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Offline: Abbie Richards on Fighting Disinformation on TikTok · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The Supreme Court has had a busy summer loosening gun
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• 0:30
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine the amount of hate and threats that
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: come your way as someone who's taking on conspiracy theorists
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: and extremists every day. What has that been like for you?
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: How do you process that?
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: It's great being a woman online.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: Famously, famously easy and wonderful, right?
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: 10 out of 10 would do it again.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it's not something I was ever prepared for
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  Speaker 5: when I started blogging. Posting, you know, it's not something
• 1:00
  Speaker 5: anyone's psyche is built for. Like your brain just is
• 1:04
  Speaker 5: not meant to be processing that amount of like discussion
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  Speaker 5: about you in the first place. But especially when there's
• 1:11
  Speaker 5: so much like hatred in that discussion, it feels very
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  Speaker 5: strange for your brain.
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  Speaker 2: So you're dealing with threats. You're seeing, you know, even
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: your most popular posts sometimes get fewer views than, you know,
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  Speaker 2: some of the disinformation and conspiracy theories you're trying to debunk.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: You're seeing online extremism get even worse. How do you
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: stay hopeful that this is a winnable fight?
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: Who told you I was hopeful? I'm Jon Favreau. Welcome
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: to Offline. Hey, everyone.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: My guest this week is Abby Richards, a 25-year-old TikTok
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: disinformation and extremism researcher. So Abby is our first TikToker.
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  Speaker 2: If you're not familiar with TikTok, it means you are old.
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  Speaker 2: or at the very least, it means that you seem old.
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  Speaker 2: But just so you know, TikTok is an incredibly addictive
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  Speaker 2: social media platform where you can create and share short
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  Speaker 2: videos on just about any topic that lasts anywhere from
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  Speaker 2: 15 seconds to three minutes. It has over 1 billion
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  Speaker 2: active users, more than double the number of users on Twitter,
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  Speaker 2: a platform that launched 10 years earlier. Abby's videos are smart, funny,
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  Speaker 2: and extremely popular. Her goal isn't just to debunk conspiracy theories,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: but as she puts it, to inoculate more people against
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  Speaker 2: the spread of disinformation so that we can better identify it,
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  Speaker 2: understand why it's so easily believed, and maybe stop future
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  Speaker 2: conspiracy theories from infecting our media, our politics, and our brains.
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  Speaker 2: So far, she's doing a pretty good job. In September
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  Speaker 2: of 2020, she created a chart that maps out various
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  Speaker 2: conspiracy theories on a scale from grounded to fully detached
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  Speaker 2: from reality, a chart that includes everything from Watergate to QAnon.
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  Speaker 4: The chart, in her words... broke the internet.
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  Speaker 2: It went viral not just on TikTok, but on Twitter, Instagram,
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  Speaker 2: basically everywhere. You can find it on conspiracychart.com. But I
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  Speaker 2: think it'd be even better for you to hear Abby
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  Speaker 2: herself give a quick explainer in a recent post.
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  Speaker 5: Basically, it moves from grounded in reality up to detached
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  Speaker 5: from reality. The conspiracies at the bottom are things that
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  Speaker 5: actually happened, like Watergate or the Tuskegee experiment. Then we
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  Speaker 5: pass the speculation line and enter the we have questions category.
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  Speaker 3: These things are sus. What's good with UFOs? Do we
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  Speaker 3: live in a simulation? We don't know.
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  Speaker 5: Once we leave reality, we hit the unequivocally false but
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  Speaker 5: mostly harmless section. Was Avril Lavigne replaced by a woman
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  Speaker 5: named Melissa?
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  Speaker 1: No.
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  Speaker 5: And she'd probably like for you to stop saying that.
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  Speaker 5: Is Stevie Wonder faking his blindness?
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  Speaker 3: Of course not.
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  Speaker 5: Stop making people prove their disabilities to you.
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  Speaker 3: It's weird.
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  Speaker 5: Once we pass reality denial, we're in quite dangerous territory.
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  Speaker 5: Denying basic science, medicine, history harms you and society at large.
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  Speaker 5: That's the kind of stuff that makes pandemics last longer.
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  Speaker 5: And finally, we hit the antisemitic point of no return.
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  Speaker 3: The end of every conspiracy theory rabbit hole is the Jews.
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  Speaker 3: Believe me, I've checked.
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  Speaker 5: And we'll do a deep dive on this, but anytime
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  Speaker 5: you hear about a secret group of evil masterminds controlling
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  Speaker 5: the world.
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  Speaker 3: Just run. This will be fun. And by fun, I
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: mean I will progressively get less sober.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, you should go check out the whole video.
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  Speaker 2: We talk all about the chart, why conspiracy theories spread,
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  Speaker 2: why certain people are more prone to believe them, what
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  Speaker 2: role social media has in spreading them, the most effective
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  Speaker 2: ways to inoculate people against them, and of course, what
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  Speaker 2: the fuck is going on with West Elm Caleb. I
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  Speaker 2: found the conversation both incredibly useful and entertaining.
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  Speaker 4: I hope you do too.
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  Speaker 2: As always, if you have questions, comments, or complaints about
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: the show, feel free to email us at offlineatcricket.com.
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  Speaker 4: Here's Abby Richards. Abby Richards, welcome to Offline.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks for taking the time. I have been really looking
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  Speaker 2: forward to this. I very much enjoy your TikToks. Thank you.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Believe it or not, there may be some offline listeners
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  Speaker 2: who are unfamiliar with not just your work, but TikTok itself.
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  Speaker 2: Can you talk about What drew you to the platform
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  Speaker 2: in the first place and how you became a TikTok
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  Speaker 2: disinformation researcher?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, they say to lean into your obsessions, and
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  Speaker 3: that's really what I went for.
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  Speaker 5: Same, same. I, right, TikTok is a social media platform-ish,
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  Speaker 5: kind of more like an interactive platform. personalized TV social
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  Speaker 5: media platform where you open up the app and it
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  Speaker 5: immediately starts recommending you videos that it thinks you'll like.
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  Speaker 5: And everybody's algorithm is very personalized and.
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  Speaker 3: Different to them.
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  Speaker 5: So it's very recommendation heavy, very, very personalized. And it's
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  Speaker 5: all really video content. And I got into it because
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  Speaker 5: during the start of the pandemic, March 2020, when we
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  Speaker 5: were all like locked inside, I downloaded.
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  Speaker 3: It and I just found it so fascinating.
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  Speaker 5: Just the communities it was forming, but also the discoverability
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  Speaker 5: and the conversations that were being had on there.
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  Speaker 3: And then I went viral for like kicking a water bottle.
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  Speaker 5: And I was like, this is such a weird platform.
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  Speaker 3: I am obsessed with it.
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  Speaker 4: Wait, so tell me about kicking the water bottle and
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  Speaker 4: why this went viral.
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  Speaker 3: I could not tell you. I literally, you're like, why
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  Speaker 3: did it go viral? I don't know.
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  Speaker 5: It was a six second video where I had a
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  Speaker 5: water bottle like up on one leg. And then I
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  Speaker 5: just like propped, like using that leg, kicked it up
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  Speaker 5: into the air. And then when it was in the air,
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  Speaker 5: kicked it out. And I think it was right at
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  Speaker 5: the time that there was this like viral audio that
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  Speaker 5: went like, dun, dun, dun.
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  Speaker 3: I kicked it on beat.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, well, that's important.
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  Speaker 5: I don't think I mean, I guess it was at
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  Speaker 5: the time. I think the bar for going viral back
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  Speaker 5: then was a lot lower. But it was just like
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  Speaker 5: fascinating that this random video to me when I had
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  Speaker 5: like 13 followers suddenly got half a million views.
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  Speaker 3: And I was just like, why? Like, what is this?
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  Speaker 2: Where did you start getting interested in disinformation? Or when
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: did you start getting interested in disinformation?
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  Speaker 3: It happened gradually.
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  Speaker 5: And it happened from, I think, having a platform on
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  Speaker 5: TikTok and being a creator on TikTok and seeing that
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  Speaker 5: it wasn't being addressed. I originally grew a platform on
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  Speaker 5: TikTok as an environmental creator. I had a brief stint
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  Speaker 5: where I canceled golf.
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  Speaker 3: That was fun. and had this platform, but it was
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  Speaker 3: also summer of 2020.
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  Speaker 5: So I was just seeing this wild increase in conspiracies
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  Speaker 5: on the platform and it really wasn't being moderated well
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  Speaker 5: at all. Seeing it in my comment section, seeing it
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  Speaker 5: in my recommended videos and seeing creators that I know
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  Speaker 5: also struggling with it and struggling with harassment or struggling with, uh,
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  Speaker 5: censorship or perceived censorship. It's kind of unclear sometimes on TikTok.
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  Speaker 5: And no one was really diving into it. And I
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  Speaker 5: found it really fascinating.
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  Speaker 2: How do you define the terms disinformation and misinformation, which
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  Speaker 2: I feel like these days are used by people to
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  Speaker 2: describe everything from extremist conspiracy theories to opinions they disagree with?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: I really go with intent. For the two, I think
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  Speaker 5: the biggest difference is disinformation. I have an idea of disinformation.
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  Speaker 5: It's false information that's spread with the intent of causing
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  Speaker 5: harm and spreading lies. Misinformation doesn't necessarily have that intent.
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  Speaker 5: And it is more of an umbrella term that I'll
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  Speaker 5: use a lot of the time for both.
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  Speaker 2: So you saw a lot of disinformation and misinformation on
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  Speaker 2: the platform, especially in summer of 2020, eventually you create
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  Speaker 2: this conspiracy theory chart that you post on TikTok and
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  Speaker 2: it basically breaks the internet. Can you talk a little
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  Speaker 2: bit more about that and how that came to be?
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  Speaker 3: I did break the internet.
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  Speaker 5: Honestly, like I was just having a conversation with somebody
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  Speaker 5: about conspiracies because I think everybody had been through this
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  Speaker 5: reckoning with just seeing more and more of it. these
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  Speaker 5: conspiracies just like all over the place. It was really
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  Speaker 5: after QAnon had really started dominating the internet.
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  Speaker 3: And we were getting like the lead up to the election.
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  Speaker 5: And I was having a conversation with somebody about like,
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  Speaker 5: if you had to believe in a conspiracy, which conspiracy
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  Speaker 5: would you believe in? And I was just like, this
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  Speaker 5: is ridiculous that I believe I know some of these
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  Speaker 5: are hateful and I need ways to like categorize them
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  Speaker 5: to make it make sense.
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  Speaker 3: In my own head.
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  Speaker 5: To be like, at what point, you know, what conspiracies
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  Speaker 5: are true? At what point are we like genuinely asking
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  Speaker 5: questions about power? And then at what point are we
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  Speaker 5: just like being really anti-Semitic?
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  Speaker 2: Well, so the final category of conspiracies in your chart,
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  Speaker 2: and you alluded to this, these are the ones, the
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  Speaker 2: conspiracies that are most detached from reality and the most
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  Speaker 2: harmful is separated by a line. And you titled the line,
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  Speaker 2: the anti-Semitic point of no return. Why do you think
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  Speaker 2: antisemitism connects so many of the most dangerous conspiracy theories?
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  Speaker 5: Well, because the general structure of the modern Western conspiracy
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  Speaker 5: theory is really rooted in, like, deeply rooted in antisemitism.
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  Speaker 3: It, like, in and of itself is really just an
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  Speaker 3: antisemitic construct.
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  Speaker 5: This idea of there's this evil group secretly plotting to
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  Speaker 5: control the world for profit and power.
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  Speaker 3: Is rooted in.
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  Speaker 5: Myths that have been around for centuries about Jewish people.
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  Speaker 2: And, you know, obviously there's like an endless amount of
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  Speaker 2: conspiracy theory debunking on the internet. What do you think
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  Speaker 2: it was about your chart that really broke through in
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  Speaker 2: a way that, you know, some other conspiracy debunking content
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  Speaker 2: has not?
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  Speaker 3: I get called.
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  Speaker 5: A conspiracy debunker a lot of the time and I
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  Speaker 5: really like not because while it's helpful to some extent,
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  Speaker 5: I really do try and answer the questions of like
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  Speaker 5: why we think this way a little bit more than
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  Speaker 5: I just dive into like each conspiracy and give it
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  Speaker 5: honestly more time than a lot of the time it deserves. Like,
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  Speaker 5: I'm more interested in why people believe this and how
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  Speaker 5: we got here and answering those questions and thinking about
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  Speaker 5: the big picture rather than just like debunking single conspiracies
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  Speaker 5: forever and ever and.
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  Speaker 3: Ever and ever.
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  Speaker 2: What have you learned about why people are drawn to
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  Speaker 2: conspiracy theories?
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  Speaker 5: They offer very simple, easy to understand answers to complex problems,
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  Speaker 5: especially during like a time of crisis.
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  Speaker 3: You know, for instance, I.
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  Speaker 5: Don't know, maybe like a global pandemic. They're really comforting
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  Speaker 5: because they oftentimes will simplify the world into like good
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  Speaker 5: and evil and just this duality of groups.
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  Speaker 3: And it's almost.
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  Speaker 5: blaming this it's blaming this supernaturally powerful group um for
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  Speaker 5: or really anyone for for what you view as wrong
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: in the world so it's a super simple kind of
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  Speaker 5: comic book level uh a story that is much easier
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  Speaker 5: than sitting and dealing with like the systemic failures of
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  Speaker 5: how we coped with a pandemic Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It seems like we live in an incredibly complex, messy world.
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  Speaker 2: Humanity is messy. Human nature is complicated. And people sort
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: of seek easier, simple explanations for why their world is
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  Speaker 2: so seemingly beyond their control, which I imagine that conspiracy
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: theories offer a relatively easy explanation for that. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: one thing I've noticed that seems to unite conspiracy theorists
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  Speaker 2: is a deep cynicism towards institutions? This idea that like
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: all the elites and the powerful are lying to us
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  Speaker 2: and trying to screw us and we're onto them. What
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  Speaker 2: do you make of that?
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  Speaker 3: I get where it's coming from.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, they've been failed by quite a few, like
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  Speaker 5: a number of institutions at this point. And I certainly
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: get very fed up with institutional powers. Like I think
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  Speaker 5: that energy to some extent is really good and fascinating.
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  Speaker 5: That challenging of authority is certainly never something that I
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: would shame or bash, because I actually think that that's
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: worth praising.
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  Speaker 3: I just think that when we challenge.
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: Authority, it should be critical of the ways that authority
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: generally actually abuse power. So if you're taking all of
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: that energy that is criticizing institutional failures, and then you're
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: applying it to essentially a fairy tale, you're not existing
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: within political reality anymore. And instead, you're taking all of
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: that energy and just checking out. It's not helpful in
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: making real change in the real world. Instead, it just
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: kind of enables either that checking out or just this
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: oversimplification that a lot of the times political leaders will
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: take advantage of.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Is there a certain kind of person or certain characteristics
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: or conditions that makes someone more susceptible to conspiracy theories?
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  Speaker 3: So yes, like there.
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: Is research on this and there's a lot of different
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: factors and it depends.
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  Speaker 3: And it's not to say that like.
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: Any one person is completely immune to it because we
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: all buy into false stuff all the time. Like that,
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: that's part of the human condition. Conspiracy theories do exist.
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: Like when you're younger, when your brain just isn't fully
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: developed yet, there is evidence that younger people are just
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: more likely to believe conspiracy theories. And then like having
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: like a sense of powerlessness, sense of anxiety, uncertainty in
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: the face of challenges, especially during like unprecedented times where
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: you're facing some sort of existential threat. So a lot
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: of it is kind of circumstantial. If you're somebody who's
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: like going through a major change in your life, if
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: there is correlation between how much education you have and
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: your belief in conspiracy theories, there's so many. And that's
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: not to say that like anyone can't fall outside of.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Any of those.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: In your experience, are people on the right side of
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: the political spectrum more prone to to believing in wild
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: conspiracies than people on the left?
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: Seems to be the modern switch, doesn't it?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I ask that partly, you know, obviously I'm
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: on the left, but I do think sometimes I worry
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: when I think about like, oh, all these crazy right-wingers
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: are buying into conspiracy theories and like, we're, you know,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: I'm educated and I pay attention to the news and
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: I'd never be able to fall for a conspiracy. But
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I sort of wonder if it's something about
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: human nature that makes us inherently susceptible to conspiracy theories,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: then I wonder whether people on the left are more
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: susceptible than we think to conspiracy theories.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: And I just was wondering about your experience with that.
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: My experience, and this is looking specifically at TikTok with
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: the younger generation who does tend to lean more left,
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: is that they'll still buy into a lot.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: Of the escapist ones.
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: And, you know, not necessarily the overtly kind of Christian
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: mythology based ones that are explicitly like very anti-Semitic and
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: kind of rooted in these old anti-Semitic structures that we've
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: seen for a while.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: But a lot of they're.
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: Absolutely buying into the more escapist, we live in a
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: different reality.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: Kind of stuff.
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: What are some examples of the escapist conspiracy theories? Ooh.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: Oh my God. There's so many.
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  Speaker 5: It's a lot of interdimensional kind of travel ones, a
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: lot of alien ones, a lot of like the world
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: ended and we live in a different reality kind of stuff. Um,
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: I'd say like a lot of celebrity sort of conspiracies
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: as well. Um, Then you start getting into like some
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: history conspiracies, like they really all go viral on TikTok.
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: And a lot of the times they're so coded that
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: unless you really understand where conspiracies get dangerous, like you
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: can't even tell.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: I do think that on the right, obviously, we've seen
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: like two of the biggest and most Dangerous conspiracies have
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: sort of intertwined over the last couple of years, which
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: is conspiracies about the pandemic and about the vaccines. And then,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: of course, the the big lie about the 2020 election. Like,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: why do you think something like 70 percent of Republicans
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: came to embrace the big lie? And what role do
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: you think social media platforms played in that?
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's a big question.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Just.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: Just dropping that out there. If you have any thoughts.
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: Abby, in 60 words or less, can you explain to
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: me how we got here?
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: Start from just before the polls closed in November.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: So when it comes to belief in conspiracies, there's some
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: research that is it's correlated with populism and authoritarianism it
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: certainly is clear that like and throughout history we've seen
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: this as well leaders will take advantage of conspiracy theory
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: beliefs for their own political gain So I think that
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: there is definitely a correlation that we saw there where
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: there's a group of people who feel powerless, especially if
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: they feel maybe like they've been losing power that they
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: previously had. And that can shift into more easy belief
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: in conspiracy theories. And I think politicians can take advantage
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: of that quite easily. It's easy to mobilize that fear.
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: Social media isn't the be-all, end-all, but it did not help.
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: It's hard to moderate all of social media, but I
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: think the tech platforms should be doing a much better
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: job than they currently are. And it was just really
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: easy for misinformation to be spreading on all social media platforms.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: I want to dig into that in a second. But
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: even before that, I mean, I saw that you.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: One of your TikToks was talking about like it was
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: just the sheer volume of misinformation and disinformation that a
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: lot of Republican voters were seeing and hearing. And it
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: was actually like the quantity and the amount of times
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: they were seeing it in the in the period after
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: the election that actually had an effect.
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: And I hadn't thought about that before, because like.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: If you're watching Fox, if you're listening to talk radio
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: and you're on a bunch of right wing websites and
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: all of your social media is following a bunch of
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: right wing people and all you see and hear for
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: like weeks at a time are all these very detailed
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: stories about how the election may have been stolen. You
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: kind of think like, yeah, what other conclusion might you
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: come to?
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's scary.
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: But the reality is that your information shapes your reality.
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: So.
• 21:55
  Speaker 5: What information you interact with every day, that's what shapes
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: how you see the world. And part of like how
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: we are wired is that the more you see something,
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: the more you're going to believe it to be true.
• 22:08
  Speaker 5: And no amount of like education can undo that. You
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: can't be too smart to really like miss that. Like
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: it's just that if this continues to be presented to
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: you as fact, your brain will eventually be like, this
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: is fact. And if you're in a polluted information ecosystem
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: and you're just constantly seeing lies, then eventually they start to.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: Form their own reality.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I've always wondered about this because I know you just
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: mentioned that education is one factor in potential susceptibility to
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: conspiracy theories. But obviously, you look at the January 6th
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: insurrection and there's a lot of people who stormed the
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Capitol with college educations. And we're, you know, pretty well
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: off middle class white people who stormed the Capitol. And
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: I think the prevailing narrative about the Trump voter as,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: you know, just some non-college educated white person who didn't
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: quite wasn't as educated as anyone else. And that's why
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: they believed in conspiracy theories is not it's never been
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: entirely accurate at all since so much of this movement
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: has come from the middle class and upper class.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: No, it's actually quite elitist.
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: And I can understand why they look at us and
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: like hate us for it. Because that's a pretty elitist
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: thing to be saying. And also who's to say that
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: like having a college education even does make you smarter.
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: Like maybe it just means that you were privileged enough
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: to go get one and you didn't need to like
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: immediately enter the workforce. So like I don't. try not
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: to really go into it with that view. I don't
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: think that people who believe conspiracy theories are stupid by
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: any means. And I don't think that people who don't
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: believe conspiracy theories are any smarter than them. Like, I
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: think it really is a very emotional issue and a very,
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: you know, it's rooted in a lot of societal problems,
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: but I don't generally like to approach it as, as
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: a logical failure because you're never going to be able
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: to reason somebody away from their belief. Like it's fundamentally
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: like a very emotional belief and it's serving some sort
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: of emotional and psychological purpose.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And I do think, I mean, we mentioned the pandemic
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: a couple of times. Obviously the pandemic was, you know,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: it's been a ripe era for misinformation because of the
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: vaccines and information about the pandemic.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: But I also feel like.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Isolation and alienation are probably conditions where conspiracy theories are bred.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: And I wonder if you think that that has like
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: a lot of people being home by themselves without a
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: lot of social connection sort of leads people down these
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: rabbit holes, or maybe I'm just guessing that, but.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: It's possible.
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: Like I personally haven't seen the research yet, but I mean,
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: anecdotally speaking, it does seem that way. And it does
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: definitely seem like once somebody is down a rabbit hole,
• 25:05
  Speaker 5: it's also.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: An extremely isolating place to be.
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: And if you become estranged from your friends and family,
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: and you don't have people to turn to to support you,
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: you'll often just go further down the rabbit hole into
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: those communities that are offering support, which are like other
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: conspiracy believers. So it is kind of a very isolating
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: experience in and of itself, and it does worsen it.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: So I think it's definitely.
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: Possible that being isolated in a pandemic made it worse.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Just pile on emotional issues we all have to work through.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, so I do want to talk about the
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: social media platform role in all of this, particularly, and
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: start with TikTok, just because you know it best. You
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: conducted a fascinating study with Media Matters about how engaging
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: with transphobic content on TikTok causes the algorithm to quickly
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: start recommending content that is also misogynistic, homophobic, anti-Semitic, racist,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: white supremacist.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: Why do you think that is?
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: Well, I think the TikTok algorithm is very good at
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: recommending you videos that it thinks will keep you on
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: the platform. And it does that by looking at what
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: other people that maybe have liked similar things to you
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: in the past have also engaged with. So I think
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: there's just already existing relationships between something like transphobia and
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: misogyny and transphobia and homophobia and homophobia, misogyny, transphobia and
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: white supremacy. Those are all existing relationships that people kind
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: of teach the algorithm and then the algorithm responds to
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: that and will show you more of it because other
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: people that liked the original content, the transphobic content that
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: you liked, but also enjoyed this homophobic content.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: So try that.
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: I had Alex Stamos on, Facebook's former chief security officer,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: who left the company over a dispute about the spread
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: of disinformation on its platform. And he acknowledged that Facebook
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: could be doing a much better job of stopping the
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: spread of disinformation and so could all social media platforms.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: But he really pushed back on the idea that tweaking
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: the algorithm could make a big difference. And he argued that,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: you know, to some extent, social media platforms are just
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: a reflection of society and human nature that are just
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: showing us people and conspiracy theories that have always been there.
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: What do you make of that?
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: I agree that it absolutely is a reflection of us.
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: Whether that reflection deserves like unfettered, constant amplification and giving back.
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: the worst of us, essentially, like the worst of not humans,
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: but like our tendencies. And capitalizing on those tendencies for
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: profit to keep us engaged, I do think that we
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: could do a better job of designing platforms that don't
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: necessarily inherently.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: Capitalize on those.
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: Because if you're really just looking at engagement driven algorithms,
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: you're going to kind of constantly run up against that problem.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Have you thought about what TikTok could do? Like what
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: that platform could do? I mean, is it something about,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: is it about having an algorithm as TikTok does that
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: is so personalized that is the problem? Or like how
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: do you, you know, in a perfect world, how would
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: you change TikTok to avoid some of this?
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: This is a tough question because like I am not
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: I am not in, like, I don't do ethical tech.
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: I don't necessarily have answers for, like, what the most
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: ethical algorithm would look like. But I do still feel
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: like and believe with my full heart that TikTok has
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: a responsibility to its users to just not be showing
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: them false and radicalizing information.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: That seems, and especially just to not let it get
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: millions and millions of views, which it regularly does. So
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: we're not talking about small videos that exist in little corners,
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: but false information, conspiracy theories that easily get millions and
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: millions of views and people never engage with critically. So
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: in my perfect world, at a bare minimum, we.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: Would be reducing the.
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: speed at which those are able to spread and the
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: distance that they can spread. So really like adding friction,
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: at least like as a bare minimum onto that misinformation.
• 29:51
  Speaker 5: And then I think that we should be doing more
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: to platform the, people who are already providing great information
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: and you know, like if somebody is out there and
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: they are a doctor or they are somebody who advocates
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: for racial justice and their videos are getting 2,000 views
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: when somebody who's out there pushing conspiracy theories is getting
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: 12 million, you know, maybe that is a comparison that we.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Should be looking at trying to fix.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: I want to talk about the great work you're doing
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: and specifically how you go about doing it. So once
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: you identify a conspiracy theory or a viral piece of
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: disinformation that you want to make a TikTok about, what
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: you want to post a video about, what's your process?
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: And what are the different challenges and tensions you're grappling
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: with during that process?
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: Oh, my number one issue is amplification. Like I don't
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: want to amplify things that are dangerous and don't need
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: to be amplified.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: And I struggle with that like every day.
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: It's like walking this line of trying to talk about
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: harmful things without causing further harm. That to me is
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: like the hardest part.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: It's like how much of the bad information do you
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: need to give people in order to prove to them
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: that it's false.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: And I don't want to give them a reason to
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: also go Googling it and trying to get down their
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: own rabbit hole and finding it elsewhere. So I want
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: to give a comprehensive enough explanation that they don't feel
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: the need to necessarily go red pill themselves and find
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: red pills that have been laid out for themselves, but
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: also not one that essentially red pills them which is
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: something that I know journalists have struggled with for a
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: while now and it's a line that I walk very
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: carefully and it's a reason why I never really post
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: any video unless like five experts have reviewed my script.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: That's That's good that you have a whole bunch of
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: experts checking it.
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: I mean, that helps.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: Well, it came with time, too.
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: I think once I was one of the only people
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: in this field using TikTok and getting my videos out
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: there at this kind of unprecedented reach that TikTok has,
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: people started stepping up to be like, all right, I'll
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: look at your scripts.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Are there certain elements of certain videos that you've found
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: work especially well? One thing I know that you're very funny,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: your videos are very funny. Do you think humor helps
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: sell them as well? What have you found actually works
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: best in some of these videos?
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: Definitely humor.
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: I don't really like to post about horrible things unless
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: I'm also joking about them to some extent because then
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: I'm not enjoying it.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: I want to have a fun time too. Yeah.
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: And it just makes it a little bit easier, I think,
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: to talk about really tough things if we're going to
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: include like a little bit of like.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: Sassy humor as well. I always like to drink tea.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm drinking it right now.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I notice that and then sometimes pour a little bourbon
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: in the tea if it's a particularly difficult topic.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: If it's really dark.
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: You know, it's very dark.
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: If it's, like, a dark, dark subject, then we're putting
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: bourbon in the tea.
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: But I do like the tea. Like, I like holding something.
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: It gives me something to do with my hands. Otherwise,
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: I'm just kind of all over the place, and it
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: makes cutting really weird.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: But also, it does, like, calm me.
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: Down, and it's created this ritual of, like, okay, I'm
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: going to film a video. I'm going to go make
• 33:48
  Speaker 5: my tea. And I really enjoyed that act.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: But yeah, honestly, it's scripting. It's so much scripting.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: I imagine you put a lot of work into the scripting.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Even the tea thing, I've noticed as I've been watching them,
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: there's something about someone who seems calm, you know, explaining
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: conspiracy theories to you that makes it like, okay, everything's
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: actually going to be okay.
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: We don't have to believe this.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: As opposed to someone who's like, wild eyed and yelling
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: about something like.
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: You can't believe this. It's very dangerous. Like, I wonder
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: if just something, is there something about the tone that
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: helps people?
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: I hope so.
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: Like, I really hope that if you do believe in
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: conspiracy theories and you see my video and you see
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: that I'm not like yelling and confronting you or being
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: super judgmental, that it does kind of create a space that.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: You know, it allows people who are maybe on the edge.
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: And thinking about getting out or just have heard some
• 34:48
  Speaker 5: misinformation but don't want to feel dumb for buying.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: Into it, which they shouldn't.
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: It creates a space that's just like calming and they
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: don't feel immediately affronted by it.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: At least that's what I'm going for. I don't know
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: if it works.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: You know, we talked about how your strategy is not
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: to just debunk but to inoculate people against conspiracies.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: How do you do that? What works? What's the inoculation
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: process like?
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's basically like a vaccine.
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: So the idea is that you provide somebody with like
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: a small dose, tiny little dose, kind of like a vaccine,
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: how you get introduced to what the virus might look like.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: And then your immune system knows how to fight it off.
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: It's very similar where you get introduced to either like what,
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: you know, a specific piece of misinformation might look like
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: or a specific tactic. that people who are spreading misinformation
• 35:45
  Speaker 5: may use, and you get shown what that looks like.
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: And now your brain, kind of almost like your immune system,
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: has this response of knowing next time you're confronted with it, like, oh,
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: this might be misinformation.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: That's interesting.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, one of the most common questions we always
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: get from Positive America listeners is, like, how do I
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: talk to my family members who've been radicalized by right-wing disinformation.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: What's your advice for those of us who don't have
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: a huge platform on TikTok?
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: My first piece of advice is always to look after yourself.
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: So you should never feel obligated to have to go
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: engage with things that make you feel unsafe or just
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: really upset. You have to take care of yourself first
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: and foremost. And then my second piece of advice would
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: be if you do have friends and family that are
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: hardcore believers and really are not in a space to
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: get out, it's helpful to like either encourage logging off,
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: encourage them to like step out of those environments and
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: maybe go engage with some activities that they've enjoyed in
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: the past that aren't conspiracy related, like playing soccer.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: Maybe you're... I don't know, just throwing it out there, baking, knitting,
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: any of those. Or whatever, be creative with it. But
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: if you do have somebody that really isn't going to
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: engage with you, if it's possible for you, I always
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: recommend that you let them know that you're still going
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: to be there and that if they want to get out,
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: that you are there for them and that you love them,
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: you care about them, you want to see them in
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: an emotionally healthy place. And you want to support them,
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: but you don't need to necessarily put up with all
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: of their most wild and dangerous beliefs.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: To support them.
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: You know, you can be there and create some distance
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: and be like, if you want to come talk to me,
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: if you want my support, I'm here, but I'm not
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: going to tolerate.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: These hateful beliefs.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: It does seem like coming to the conversation with some
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: level of empathy is probably a a little bit more
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: effective than why do you believe this crazy thing that's bad?
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: Actually, asking why can be really, really helpful.
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: Oh, interesting.
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: I wouldn't go, why do you believe this crazy belief?
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: You know, that might upset them. But if they're like,
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: the world is run by a satanic cabal and the
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: pandemic is faked, be like, why did they think the pandemic? Like,
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: just play dumb. And Keep asking why and keep, like,
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: so exactly, like, who are these people? Like, where do
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: they convene? You know, like, what are they doing? And
• 38:38
  Speaker 5: really just play dumb and really poke at their belief
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: with a stick. And you won't immediately see change, but
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: you might be able to poke some holes until they eventually, like,
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: can see that maybe it is just a belief.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: So how does the microchip fit into the syringe that
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: gives you the vaccine?
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: Yes, yes.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Just show me where it goes in the needle. Okay,
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: so can.
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: You explain to me why you're okay with phones and
• 39:11
  Speaker 5: carrying that around all the time but not this hypothetical microchip?
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: So how do you feel about companies collecting and.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: Selling our data? I'm just asking.
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Is that something also on your mind? I saw that
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: you spoke to a former QAnon believer who was deradicalized.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: What did you learn from him?
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: Ajit Arth is my friend. He's my buddy. We've been
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: friends for a while, so I've learned a lot from him.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Tell me the story. I was so fascinated by it.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: It's a short video, but I was like, God, I
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: want to know more about that guy.
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: He was an early QAnon believer and then got out
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: over time, slowly.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: It's really like his own story to tell.
• 39:55
  Speaker 5: But yeah, he was deep in this place of conspiracy
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: belief and kind of got himself out, as he says,
• 40:05
  Speaker 5: kind of the same way he got himself in, just
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: slowly poking holes in his own beliefs and then wound
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: up doing a lot of work to try and help
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: people get out or just help people who've lost family
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: and friends to QAnon. So I know he's like a
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: mod over at QAnon casualties, the subreddit for people who've
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: lost friends and family to QAnon.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: And yeah, he's been doing.
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: A lot of amazing work and I got to know
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: him like well over a year ago.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: So he's great.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think people who are sort of de-radicalized
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: from these beliefs are most fascinating to me because, you know,
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: I'm in politics. I spend a lot of time thinking about,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: you know, marginal swing voters, people who go back and
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: forth or people who don't vote, you know, and then
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: trying to get them to vote. The folks who are
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: like hardcore MAGA people, I'm like, I don't think it's
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: worth spending a ton of time and energy trying to
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: get their votes because it seems like their beliefs are
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: so hardened. What is it that potentially gets people out
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: of those beliefs or someone who's been in QAnon?
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: Like, what do you think?
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: You said that it's gradual, but is it like gradual
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: exposure to good information? Is it, you know, family and
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: friends getting involved? Like, what's the path out?
• 41:22
  Speaker 5: I don't think there is one path out. Like, it
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: would be amazing if there were. The existing information that
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: we have on de-radicalization is, isn't super solid um there
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: it doesn't seem like there is like kind of in
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: the same way there isn't one way to get radicalized
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: there isn't one way to get de-radicalized and you know
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: there there's concerns that if you're de-radicalized from one belief
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: you'll just go to like the extreme of another uh
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: so it's not necessarily something that i advocate for uh
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: or promote And I think that it's tough because it
• 42:02
  Speaker 5: would be nice if we could just like expose people
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: to high quality information and assume that that'll fix the problem.
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: But especially if we're talking about somebody who's like in
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: a deep, you know, grown up in a deep red state,
• 42:15
  Speaker 5: you know, conservative family and has this entire framework that
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: would have to be deconstructed. It's not necessarily the way
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: I would go about it, but I would be prioritizing,
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: you know, high quality education about... systemic injustices and how
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: we can make our systems better and getting involved in
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: communities and prioritize that across all levels more than just de-radicalization.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: So would you say that your goal with either the
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: videos that you do is sort of like catching people
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: before they fall down that rabbit hole?
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: It's a catch all.
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: I think to some extent it's catching people before they fall.
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: To some extent it's helping the people who are witnessing
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: the fall.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: Understand what is going on.
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: Uh, cause it's so overwhelming if you've lost friends and
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: family or you're just like watching, watching.
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: The world go nuts.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: You're watching the world go kind of insane. You want
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: to understand it better.
• 43:18
  Speaker 5: Um, And I've gotten some people say that I've helped them,
• 43:24
  Speaker 5: like my videos helped them out of QAnon.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: I don't necessarily believe that.
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: I think that if you want to escape that kind
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: of belief system, you have to truly.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Want to, to some degree.
• 43:34
  Speaker 5: You have to approach my videos with an open mind
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: and you have to be ready and willing to get there.
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: I think it's not me, it's them. It's their own
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: power to get themselves out.
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: But.
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a lot of just explaining what's going on,
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: helping people better understand it, and maybe hopefully.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: Preventing some of them from falling.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: In. I can't imagine the amount of hate and threats
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: that come your way as someone who's taking on conspiracy
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: theorists and extremists every day. What has that been like
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: for you? How do you process that?
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: Ana, it's great being a woman online.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: Of course, famously, famously easy and wonderful, right?
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: 10 out of 10 would do it again. Yeah, no,
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: it's not something I was ever prepared for.
• 44:30
  Speaker 5: When I started hosting, you know, with a water bottle kick,
• 44:36
  Speaker 5: I certainly never thought I would get hate for that.
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: And somehow that still resulted in some hate comments because
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: the internet's garbage sometimes. But in general, it's not something
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: anyone's psyche is built for. Like your brain just is
• 44:53
  Speaker 5: not meant to be processing that amount of like discussion
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: about you in the first place. But especially when there's
• 45:00
  Speaker 5: so much like hatred in that discussion, it feels very.
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: Strange for your brain.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: And you're someone who spends so much time like studying
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: disinformation and conspiracies and what they do to people. And
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: I imagine like, Even as much as you know these
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: are just people, hateful people yelling at me, whatever, it's
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: still got to really affect you.
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: It's probably impossible to escape that.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: I also think that studying disinformation, misinformation, extremism, it gives
• 45:31
  Speaker 5: me more empathy than I had before.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: So even like as overwhelming.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: Well, because you have to get into the mindset of
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: somebody who would buy into those things. And get into
• 45:44
  Speaker 5: the mindset of somebody who would buy into some, like,
• 45:47
  Speaker 5: you know, buying into really anti-Semitic or really, really racist narratives,
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: really misogynistic, really transphobic narratives. You have to get into
• 45:57
  Speaker 5: that headset, not headset, mindset. And it doesn't make it better.
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: It just, you know, it's coming from.
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: It's coming from insecurity and it's coming from perceived powerlessness
• 46:15
  Speaker 5: a lot of the times.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: And that doesn't make it okay.
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: But I think it just like makes me a little
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: bit less like just hateful in general.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's my background in politics or
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: especially like speech writing, where again, you're trying to like
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: persuade audiences. So you're trying to get in people's heads,
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: even people that you don't agree with. But I've been
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: thinking about this a lot, even around the pandemic and anti-vaxxers.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: There's yet another news story about someone who is unvaccinated,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: who is an anti-vaxxer.
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: Who died of COVID.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: I'm angry, but my anger is towards the people who
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: spread that disinformation to that person, more so than the
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: person themselves. Because I feel like it's not like I
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: want to excuse it and just say, oh, everyone's a
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: victim and whatever. But you can see Because of people's
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: information environment and, you know, the propaganda that they're exposed to,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: the conspiracies they're exposed to, like, why they would go
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: down that path and why they would believe that. And
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: I just feel like it's more sad than anything else.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: And it's enraging, you know, when it comes to, like,
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: the people on TV or on the internet who are
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: spreading that shit in the first place.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: And I get how....
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: If you're somebody, especially, right, if you're like immunocompromised and
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: you see that, you.
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: Might have a different reaction as well.
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: Like I get that just that anger and like I'm
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: not here to invalidate that.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: That anger makes sense.
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: But at the same time, I mean, for me personally,
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: it does make me very sad because I don't think
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: that it's– It just doesn't seem like a very amazing
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: life to be sitting there and acting in a very
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: selfish way and prioritizing your individual freedom over our collective
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: well-being and prioritizing your right to participate in a public
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: health measure for everybody's benefit and put other people at risk.
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: Like that, to me, I understand the anger.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: To me, it just makes me sad that that doesn't
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: seem like a great way to live.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: So you're dealing with threats. You're seeing, you know, even
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: your most popular posts sometimes get fewer views than, you know,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: some of the disinformation and conspiracy theories you're trying to debunk.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: You're seeing online extremism get even worse. How do you
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: stay hopeful that this is a winnable fight? Who told
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: you I was hopeful?
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: Okay. Then maybe you don't. That's the answer. Well, you, well,
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: you're at it. You keep at it.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: You must feel like you're making progress or that progress
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: is possible.
• 49:03
  Speaker 5: I mean, I want to contribute to trying to clean.
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: Up the mess.
• 49:09
  Speaker 5: Um, and I think that, uh, there are lots of
• 49:12
  Speaker 5: ways that you can do that.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: And this is mine.
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: It just really depends on the day, how hopeful I
• 49:18
  Speaker 5: am feeling. Um, But at the end of the day,
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: I mean, I find it really interesting.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: And I think that.
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: It's important work and like people need to understand these issues.
• 49:28
  Speaker 5: So I think that keeps me going more than like
• 49:31
  Speaker 5: hope that we have some utopian light at the end.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Of the tunnel. Just the... slow, kind of.
• 49:41
  Speaker 5: Hopeful push of progress is more what I contribute to.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: We've talked about extremism, radicalization, disinformation, hate, racism. I want
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: to switch gears with a very important question on an
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: even weightier topic. What are your thoughts on West Elm Caleb?
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: Oh, no. That is heavy.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: I feel like you're... I want to tell you what
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: happened here. Friday, I see the news about West Elm Caleb,
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: and I saw that you were quoted in one of
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: the pieces about it, and I slacked it to our team,
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: and I said, hey, everyone, do we think I should
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: ask Abby a question about West Elm Caleb, and also,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: what is West Elm Caleb? And then I went down
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: the rabbit hole of having to fucking learn all about
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: this guy and this controversy. But I thought you had
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: some interesting Um, comments about it. So I would love,
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: I'd love for you to share them.
• 50:41
  Speaker 5: So TikTok seems to be like facilitating the creation of
• 50:46
  Speaker 5: a meme in like a more rapid way than we've
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: ever seen before. And TikTok just because, you know, if
• 50:54
  Speaker 5: you saw a video on an emergent topic at 2
• 50:59
  Speaker 5: PM that day and you liked it or engaged with
• 51:02
  Speaker 5: it or watched it.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: To completion, you're then more likely to be fed.
• 51:07
  Speaker 5: A subsequent video that also is using the hashtag, also
• 51:10
  Speaker 5: talking about those things that other people also engaged with.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: So it really allows for this.
• 51:14
  Speaker 5: Pile on of almost obsessions with specific memes on TikTok.
• 51:23
  Speaker 5: And one of our problems is that about every week,
• 51:26
  Speaker 5: every two weeks, TikTok will choose a new human to
• 51:30
  Speaker 5: turn into a meme.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: And that's kind of what happened with.
• 51:35
  Speaker 5: West Elm Caleb and it did result in like this
• 51:39
  Speaker 5: mass harassment and doxing.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: Where it really didn't.
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: Seem called for nor is that how we generally handle
• 51:50
  Speaker 5: justice in our society for good reason but for those
• 51:58
  Speaker 5: who aren't you know privy to the newest TikTok dramas
• 52:03
  Speaker 5: A handful of women in New York City realized that
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: they'd all been on dates or dating some guy who
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: was 6'4 and worked at West Elm and his name
• 52:13
  Speaker 5: was Caleb. And they accused him of manipulation and like
• 52:19
  Speaker 5: love bombing them and then ghosting them. And then there
• 52:22
  Speaker 5: was also a accusation of him sending some unsolicited nude pictures. Um, interestingly,
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: that seems to be the thing that people are the
• 52:31
  Speaker 5: least concerned with.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: And they're very concerned with this, like ghosting.
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: And, uh, and I would like to see them having
• 52:40
  Speaker 5: more conversations about maybe the unsolicited nudes.
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: And that makes sense. That makes sense.
• 52:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah. But, uh, yeah, they, they all connected and realized
• 52:48
  Speaker 5: that they were, had all dated this guy and they
• 52:50
  Speaker 5: started calling him West Elm Caleb because he worked at
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: West Elm.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: That was on all of his dating profiles.
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: And then, um, sharing his Hinge messages and pictures of
• 52:59
  Speaker 5: him and his full profile and everything they had said
• 53:02
  Speaker 5: and doxing him, trying to get him fired from his job.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: And it just was kind of a shit show.
• 53:09
  Speaker 5: And I say this as somebody who has experienced harassment
• 53:13
  Speaker 5: on a massive scale and also isn't a fan of
• 53:17
  Speaker 5: manipulative men, is.
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: That you can dislike both.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, I think it's almost, it's not about
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: like West Elm Caleb himself, right? You can think he's
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: an asshole, that's fine. It is, if we're getting to,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, Twitter has this dynamic in a different way
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: where I'm always on Twitter and it's like, there's the
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Twitter villain of the day. And oftentimes that person is
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: sort of a villain. Sometimes that person has just tweeted
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: something stupid or said something dumb. And if these algorithms
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: are enabling sort of these pylons to individuals to then yeah,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: maybe sometimes the individuals deserve it, or even most of
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: the time.
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: But what happens when.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: They start just like, you know, the algorithm trains its
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: eye on someone who didn't really do the thing that
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: he or she is being accused of? Like you said,
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: it seems like a bad way to dispense justice.
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just, you know, a conversation that as a
• 54:20
  Speaker 5: society we need to have about whether or not we're
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: comfortable with that regularly occurring. And, you know, whether or
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: not we're comfortable parsing apart people's lives for our own
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: entertainment because they're our villain of the day. And that's
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: what is happening on TikTok.
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: We've seen it happen with several people now.
• 54:39
  Speaker 5: West on Caleb is literally just this week, so I'm
• 54:42
  Speaker 5: willing to bet there will be a.
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: New one by, like, Monday.
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: Of course, yeah.
• 54:46
  Speaker 5: So I think that it's even if these people, like,
• 54:52
  Speaker 5: aren't good.
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: And I don't know about, I don't know Weston Caleb.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: I can't make any judgment calls on him. I don't know.
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: He seems like he certainly has become like a stand-in
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: for just generally kind of shitty men.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: But even if they.
• 55:06
  Speaker 5: Are that terrible, like, is that how we want to
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: handle that? And, you know, does that actually create change?
• 55:17
  Speaker 5: Because from all of these conversations about men being manipulative,
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: it doesn't actually seem.
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: Like they're reaching men.
• 55:27
  Speaker 5: It seems like this is more of a, in a
• 55:31
  Speaker 5: very female-oriented side of TikTok, they're having conversations about this,
• 55:37
  Speaker 5: but I don't really see men engaging on manipulative behaviors.
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: I don't know if it's necessarily even a learning opportunity. Yeah.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: Well, you wonder, do individual pylons or individual shaming really
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: help fix systemic issues. I don't know that there's a
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: lot of evidence that they did it.
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: I mean, we certainly know it's not an effective public
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: health measure.
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right. Exactly.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: We see that all the time.
• 56:07
  Speaker 5: Public shaming did not get people to wear masks. It
• 56:10
  Speaker 5: doesn't get people to wear condoms. I think that it's
• 56:15
  Speaker 5: generally good to approach people with a bit more of
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: empathy if you want them to learn something that you're saying.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Would you have been more likely to join the pylon
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: if West Elm Caleb was an avid golfer?
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: Yes. For people who don't know, you mentioned this earlier.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: You did go viral for trying to cancel golf. I
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: will say that I'm not a golfer. I've never really
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: been a golfer. I have a lot of friends and
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: family who are golfers, but I never really thought about it.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: And that's a great example of I watched some of
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: your anti-golf videos and I was like, yeah, she has
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: a lot of.
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: Good points about golf. Yeah, maybe it's sort of a
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: waste of time.
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: It's kind of a waste of space.
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: Resources, space, yeah, a whole bunch of stuff.
• 57:01
  Speaker 5: Literally, I know we'll call people, like, they're a waste
• 57:03
  Speaker 5: of space.
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: Like, golf is literally wasting so much space.
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: And, like, the per acre land use per, like, per player,
• 57:12
  Speaker 5: the acre land use per player is just, like, insane.
• 57:16
  Speaker 5: And the amount that, like, each player is getting in
• 57:19
  Speaker 5: water and fertilizer and pesticides and space and fresh air.
• 57:24
  Speaker 5: It's just, and all of that is generally, like, privatized
• 57:29
  Speaker 5: and hidden, right? for wealthy golfers to access. Um, even
• 57:34
  Speaker 5: though green space is really healthy for communities and.
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: Everybody has access to it.
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Look at that. We're canceling golf.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Um, final question that I ask every guest, uh, what's
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: your favorite way to unplug and how often do you
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: get to do it?
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: Oh, I really like cooking.
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: I live with One of my best friends.
• 57:56
  Speaker 5: And basically every night I cook her dinner and then
• 57:59
  Speaker 5: we sit down and we have a TV show project.
• 58:02
  Speaker 5: It's very quarantine friendly. So we are working like all
• 58:05
  Speaker 5: the way through Doctor Who. And that's been really fun.
• 58:12
  Speaker 5: But also like generally physical activity is my thing.
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: I do a lot of handstands.
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: Oh, handstands.
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: I like going upside down.
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: That's great. All right. That's a unique answer for this question.
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: Favorite unplug? Handstands. I'll take it.
• 58:29
  Speaker 5: Handstands.
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: Go upside down.
• 58:30
  Speaker 5: You got to get the blood flow up. It clears
• 58:32
  Speaker 5: out all of the junk information that I've.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: Seen that day.
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: Even better.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: That's even better. Abby Richards, thank you so much for
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: joining Offline. This was really fun.
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: And to our digital team, who film and share our
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: episodes as videos every week.