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Murdaugh Murders: Murdaugh Bullies Witness for Alibi · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greece, more bombshells and the Alex A.
0:15
Speaker 1: Murdock double murder trial. Just a moment ago, the judge
0:20
Speaker 1: announced we are going on a lunch break. Now it's
0:24
Speaker 1: timed because the jury is about to hear some sort
0:29
Speaker 1: of a recording, a recording that the judge announced would
0:32
Speaker 1: take about half an hour for the jury to hear.
0:36
Speaker 1: What is it? What will it reveal? Also today a
0:40
Speaker 1: bombshell ruling about financial motive to commit murder. We're waiting
0:46
Speaker 1: for Ann Emerson to come straight out of the courtroom,
0:48
Speaker 1: Senior investigative reporter w C I V. But first I
0:52
Speaker 1: want to go to Eric Bland joining us, high profile
0:56
Speaker 1: lawyer out of Columbia and the lawyer for the glory
1:00
Speaker 1: a Sadderfield family. You all recall that Gloria Sadderfield as
1:05
Speaker 1: the housekeeper and nanny the Murdoch's employed for decades, and
1:10
Speaker 1: I will never forget on the nine on one call
1:12
Speaker 1: after she had fun to her death there at the
1:16
Speaker 1: Murdoch home, how the caller referred to her as the
1:21
Speaker 1: woman that worked for us. Really, the woman raises you,
1:26
Speaker 1: helps raise you, and now she's the woman that worked
1:30
Speaker 1: for us Okay, Eric Bland joining us. Eric, what do
1:35
Speaker 1: you make of what's going on in the courtroom right now? Well,
1:38
Speaker 1: I think we had an explosive day. Nancy. First, thanks
1:40
Speaker 1: for having me on. I think Mark Tinsley shows the
1:44
Speaker 1: type of lawyering that we have here in South Carolina.
1:48
Speaker 1: He just tore the lid off of the myth of
1:51
Speaker 1: Alex Murdoch. And with the pressures that he was under
1:54
Speaker 1: on the day of the murders and in the month
1:57
Speaker 1: of June, I think we also saw a little bit
1:59
Speaker 1: of look in New York like we're in a mafia
2:02
Speaker 1: trial because Mark mentioned about Alex tampering with the jury,
2:06
Speaker 1: and then with Missus Shelley, we just heard about witness intimidation.
2:11
Speaker 1: This is the power, Nancy, that the Murdolls had as
2:14
Speaker 1: a grip on these counties for a hundred years. But
2:18
Speaker 1: I think what we've seen is this judge is now
2:21
Speaker 1: seeing who Alex Murdo really is, a true dastardly sociopath,
2:27
Speaker 1: a man that will steal from clients, steal from his
2:29
Speaker 1: law firm, steal from his family, intimidate people. It was
2:36
Speaker 1: a big ruling. Now you've got to be real careful
2:38
Speaker 1: as a prosecutor because now you got something, and does
2:42
Speaker 1: this create an appellet issue when all the four H
2:44
Speaker 1: four B stuff comes in? But I think I called
2:49
Speaker 1: it the Emperor without any clothes. We're not we're seeing
2:51
Speaker 1: who he is any legalise When you say what did
2:58
Speaker 1: you say? Four oh four B, explain that in regular
3:02
Speaker 1: people talk. Yeah, I'm sorry, that's the bad character evidence,
3:05
Speaker 1: admitting all of these potential financial crimes that he's charged
3:10
Speaker 1: with and other financial pressures and what we don't want
3:14
Speaker 1: in our courts, Nancy, is the reason for this rule
3:17
Speaker 1: is we don't want somebody to be convicted of murder
3:20
Speaker 1: just because they're a serial penciling or thief like he is.
3:25
Speaker 1: But the judge showed that they are temporal in time
3:28
Speaker 1: to the murders and that this influenced his actions. It
3:33
Speaker 1: became the motive. So we'll see if these dots can
3:37
Speaker 1: be connected. But it was explosive testimony today to the
3:42
Speaker 1: court by Mark Tinsley and then miss Shelley. Really you
3:46
Speaker 1: could see labored hard about what she had to say.
3:50
Speaker 1: But he was clearly crafting an alibi of saying that
3:54
Speaker 1: he was there at the house for thirty to forty
3:57
Speaker 1: minutes guys, when you hear Eric Bland, who high profile
4:00
Speaker 1: lawyer or joining us from Columbia, South Carolina, describe the
4:05
Speaker 1: financial I'm just calling it miss deeds. But what it
4:08
Speaker 1: is is outright embezzlements, siphoning, stealing from clients and the
4:12
Speaker 1: law firm. He said they were temporal in time. In
4:19
Speaker 1: other words, it was happening at the time of the murders. Okay,
4:24
Speaker 1: it was very important to him to cover that up.
4:29
Speaker 1: It was contemporaneous with the time of the murders. It's
4:32
Speaker 1: not like the state is reaching back for the last
4:35
Speaker 1: twenty years to show a pattern of theft. This was
4:38
Speaker 1: happening right up to the time that Maggie and Paul
4:41
Speaker 1: were gunned down dead. Now, Eric Bland, how do you
4:44
Speaker 1: believe that the state is going to tie millions and
4:49
Speaker 1: millions of dollars that Murdoch stole, including from your clients.
4:55
Speaker 1: How are they going to connect that to the murders
4:58
Speaker 1: as being the You know, sometimes motive isn't clean, Nancy.
5:03
Speaker 1: Sometimes people kill for reasons that would make us scratch
5:07
Speaker 1: our head, like you really did it for that? But
5:09
Speaker 1: what this was is nothing more than problem solving. As
5:12
Speaker 1: my co hosts on our podcast Cup of Justice lists
5:16
Speaker 1: Farrell says he had a problem, and that is when
5:19
Speaker 1: the law firm is breathing down his neck on misappropriated
5:24
Speaker 1: fees of seven hundred ninety two thousand dollars. And in
5:27
Speaker 1: his head he knows that the sadder Field matter is
5:29
Speaker 1: now being publicly talked about him stealing four point three
5:33
Speaker 1: million dollars. He knows that his entire life is dependent
5:37
Speaker 1: on his law firm revenue, both legitimate and then them
5:42
Speaker 1: what he steals and it would be taken away. The
5:44
Speaker 1: sadder Field case is so important because he can't control that.
5:48
Speaker 1: If that gets to our state bar, he gets disbarred.
5:52
Speaker 1: Exactly what happened when I got the four point three
5:54
Speaker 1: million dollars judgment. So in your mind, where in other
5:57
Speaker 1: people's minds will say, well, this really isn't a reason
6:00
Speaker 1: why you would kill your wife and kid. But remember
6:04
Speaker 1: this guy is a sociopath. Money to him is his god,
6:09
Speaker 1: it's his status in life, and he saw that money
6:13
Speaker 1: trained drying up quickly, and that's why he did what
6:17
Speaker 1: he did. Now, whether the jury is going to believe
6:20
Speaker 1: that's proper motive, that's for another day. But I think
6:24
Speaker 1: what you heard today is the courage of Mark Tinsley,
6:27
Speaker 1: who I've described as nothing but a positive terrorist. You
6:32
Speaker 1: put that person in your house, he will blow it up.
6:36
Speaker 1: He's that dogged for his clients. And miss Smith is credible.
6:40
Speaker 1: I mean she didn't want to testify. You saw the fear,
6:43
Speaker 1: the palpable fear that that woman was showing in court
6:47
Speaker 1: because Alex tried to put the grips to her and said,
6:51
Speaker 1: I was there thirty to forty minutes, right, and she's
6:54
Speaker 1: saying no, only you were only there to ten minutes. However,
6:59
Speaker 1: we took a break. There is a rough draft that
7:02
Speaker 1: was just given to the prosecution of her statement that
7:06
Speaker 1: she gave, and we'll see if she supports that inner
7:09
Speaker 1: statement that she gave in June of twenty twenty one.
7:13
Speaker 1: But Alex Murdock really is somebody that the world is
7:18
Speaker 1: seeing right now without his clothes on. Harpoo, Lene and
7:21
Speaker 1: Griffin are doing what they can, but his family's got
7:25
Speaker 1: to ask some hard questions. We know where this judge
7:27
Speaker 1: stands on this this man, Nancy, we know where he stands.
7:32
Speaker 1: You know, you were talking about the allegation that Alex
7:37
Speaker 1: Murdock would intimidate witnesses I want to tell you a
7:40
Speaker 1: true story. I had a this was my first mass
7:45
Speaker 1: murder case that I ever handled, and I had a
7:49
Speaker 1: photo array, a photo lineup to show a witness what
7:54
Speaker 1: I thought was going to be a witness. It was
7:56
Speaker 1: late one Sunday night when three murders went down, and
8:00
Speaker 1: only after we had done the photo array, and I
8:03
Speaker 1: was back at the courthouse and I was getting everything
8:06
Speaker 1: together to present to the jury Eric I looked down
8:12
Speaker 1: at my photo array and one photo was about half
8:17
Speaker 1: an inch bigger than the other photos. Can I tell
8:22
Speaker 1: you I remember the moment I realized it's about that
8:26
Speaker 1: much bigger than the other photos because they were what
8:29
Speaker 1: would that be, jacka three by five type photo. They weren't,
8:35
Speaker 1: you know, passport sized photos. And when I put them
8:40
Speaker 1: all together, I saw one was a little bit bigger,
8:42
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh my stars, And clearly you see
8:47
Speaker 1: the constitutional problem with that. The witness would look at
8:51
Speaker 1: that photo because it's bigger than the others. Well, luckily
8:55
Speaker 1: the witness did not identify that photo and that photo
8:59
Speaker 1: was not the anyway. But still in my mind, I'm like,
9:02
Speaker 1: oh my stars, I've done something wrong. This is unconstitutional.
9:06
Speaker 1: That photos about a half an inch bigger, so, Eric Bland,
9:09
Speaker 1: I was a nervous wreck until the photo of array
9:14
Speaker 1: was admitted. I mean something that small. I thought that
9:18
Speaker 1: that's wrong doing. What's going to happen is the idea
9:22
Speaker 1: gonna get thrown out. It meant nothing, It meant nothing
9:25
Speaker 1: at all. And now we've got claims that Alex Murdog
9:30
Speaker 1: actually intimidated witnesses. I'm also a lot in today about
9:37
Speaker 1: the Mallory Beach death. We all know that Malory Beach
9:42
Speaker 1: was a young teen girl that was on a boat
9:45
Speaker 1: with Paul Murdog when Murdoch, high as the Kai and
9:50
Speaker 1: drunk as a skunk, insisted on speeding in the dark
9:55
Speaker 1: hours of the night through a tiny channel. I've been there,
9:59
Speaker 1: Eric Bland, and we were going easy, really easy, because
10:04
Speaker 1: there were twists and turns. He was flooring it. He
10:07
Speaker 1: slammed into some cement pilings and Mallory Beach flew off
10:12
Speaker 1: the boat to her death. I mean, doctor Michelle Dupree,
10:16
Speaker 1: you were there. We saw it virtually at the same time,
10:20
Speaker 1: that little channel where Mallory Beach lost her life. Do
10:25
Speaker 1: you remember seeing those cement pilings. No one could have
10:28
Speaker 1: survived that, doctor Michelle Dupree. I do remember that, Nancy,
10:33
Speaker 1: and that was so reckless. When you look at that
10:35
Speaker 1: channel in broad daylight as we did, it doesn't seem
10:38
Speaker 1: as treacherous, but it's still very narrow and the pilings are,
10:41
Speaker 1: as you said, concrete, and to be speeding at night
10:44
Speaker 1: like that is simply horrific. And Eric Bland, I'm building up.
10:48
Speaker 1: I'm laying a foundation right now to my question. For
10:51
Speaker 1: my question to you mentioned that Maggie and Paul's murderers
10:56
Speaker 1: were your words, not mine, problem alving, and that's exactly
11:02
Speaker 1: what I've been thinking, because Maggie was finally for a divorce.
11:06
Speaker 1: It hasn't come out in court yet, I don't think,
11:08
Speaker 1: but she was finally for a divorce. The moment I
11:11
Speaker 1: put my foot in South Carolina, I had people come
11:14
Speaker 1: up and say, Maggie saw a divorce lawyer. He's a
11:17
Speaker 1: piece of crap. She wants a divorce, and so he
11:20
Speaker 1: killed her. It seemed like everybody knew, Yeah, okay, fine,
11:25
Speaker 1: you say whatever you want to, Eric Bland, and Paul,
11:30
Speaker 1: and Paul was the reason. So anyway, regarding her divorce,
11:35
Speaker 1: she would be filing for a forensic accounting to try
11:39
Speaker 1: to find the money for her to get half of
11:41
Speaker 1: all right, and Paul he was the fly in the
11:45
Speaker 1: ointment because Paul is the reason Mallory Beach's family was
11:51
Speaker 1: going after the Murdog Empire. So when you say problem solving,
11:55
Speaker 1: is it really just that cut and dried, get rid
11:59
Speaker 1: of Maggie, no forensic accountant, get rid of Paul. The
12:03
Speaker 1: Malory Beach case will settle. Is that what you meant
12:06
Speaker 1: my problem solving? Yes, I mean, look, it's not a
12:09
Speaker 1: rational reason and when we look at it now, but
12:12
Speaker 1: in the height of his frenzy at that time, that's
12:15
Speaker 1: what he could come up with. Remember, there was one
12:18
Speaker 1: other investigation that hasn't been talked about yet. We had
12:22
Speaker 1: an impaneled grand jury for nine months, and Alex was
12:26
Speaker 1: being looked at for obstruction of justice for what he
12:29
Speaker 1: did inside the emergency hospital room after the Malory Beach case,
12:33
Speaker 1: because he was going from room to room and trying
12:37
Speaker 1: to influence what the boys would say that Paul was
12:41
Speaker 1: not driving the boat. So, in addition to Maggie not
12:45
Speaker 1: signing over the Beach house in a connection with a
12:48
Speaker 1: Palmetto State Bank loan, in addition to being confronted by
12:52
Speaker 1: Jeanie of the seven hundred and ninety two thousand dollar
12:54
Speaker 1: fee with Chris Wilson, in addition to Mark Tinsley, who's
12:58
Speaker 1: just a hurricane force attorney breathing down his neck. Now
13:03
Speaker 1: you have him being investigated on a grand jury scale,
13:06
Speaker 1: you have the sadder field matter that he knows is
13:09
Speaker 1: now publicly written about, and you also have the fact
13:12
Speaker 1: that he's being sued busters being sued in the Malory
13:15
Speaker 1: Beach case. Plus Paul is being criminally charged with duy homicide,
13:21
Speaker 1: which he knows he's going to get at least twenty
13:24
Speaker 1: to thirty years if he lives. That kind of pressure
13:27
Speaker 1: breaks pipes, Nancy, guys, speaking of Alex and Murdad trying
13:32
Speaker 1: to bully the Malory Beach lawyer, take a listen to
13:37
Speaker 1: our cut one. Did you see the defendant there? I did?
13:41
Speaker 1: And did you have a conversation with him about the
13:43
Speaker 1: boat case? I did? All right, relate that conversation with
13:47
Speaker 1: the court police. Yeah, I think I'm not one hundred
13:50
Speaker 1: percent certain that it was a fundraiser either for mister
13:53
Speaker 1: Harnputlan or it was a fundraiser for Lindsey Graham. Alex
13:57
Speaker 1: sees me and he comes across and he gets up
14:02
Speaker 1: close in my face and says, hey, Bo, what's this.
14:05
Speaker 1: I'm hearing about what you're saying. I thought we were friends,
14:10
Speaker 1: And I replied, Eli, we are friends. If you don't
14:14
Speaker 1: think I can burn your house down, and that I'm
14:17
Speaker 1: that I'm not doing everything and I'm not going to
14:21
Speaker 1: do everything, You're wrong. You need to settle this case.
14:23
Speaker 1: The point of it was we're friends. I took it
14:27
Speaker 1: as he tried to intimidate me. He didn't intimidate me
14:30
Speaker 1: and and sort of bully me into backing off. So
14:35
Speaker 1: Eric Bland I was worried about a half inch photo
14:38
Speaker 1: that was too too large, Okay, that somehow I had
14:41
Speaker 1: done something wrong, And here's this guy trying to intimidate
14:44
Speaker 1: lawyers into backing off of a very serious case regarding
14:49
Speaker 1: Malory Beach. Yeah. It's it's um. It's indicative of how
14:54
Speaker 1: Alex comports himself. He has his entire life. He's gone
14:59
Speaker 1: to other and said, look, Bo, let's work this out together.
15:03
Speaker 1: You know, let don't worry about the clients. Will I'll
15:05
Speaker 1: scratch your back. You're scratch my back. Mark Tinsley won
15:09
Speaker 1: playing that game that day. Mark Tinsley told him, I
15:12
Speaker 1: will burn your house down to watch mine smoke, and
15:15
Speaker 1: Alex really learned at that point in time, man Tinsley
15:19
Speaker 1: is going to come at me and he's gonna want
15:21
Speaker 1: to know my finances and if I have to put
15:24
Speaker 1: my finances together, And if you're correct, Nancy, that Maggie
15:28
Speaker 1: was seeing a divorce lawyer, then Maggie's going to get
15:31
Speaker 1: a full picture of his finances. So he was under
15:36
Speaker 1: inordinate amount of pressure. In June of two and twenty one, Jim,
15:42
Speaker 1: Jim and Dick are just watching a different script, a
15:45
Speaker 1: different play than we are. But that's pressure that that
15:48
Speaker 1: man was under, and he tried to problem solve the
15:51
Speaker 1: best way you can. I know. Dick and Jim say, well,
15:54
Speaker 1: wait a minute, he's a thief and he's going to
15:57
Speaker 1: try to cover up his financial crimes and now implicate
16:01
Speaker 1: himself in a murder. But as sociopath and a narcissists
16:04
Speaker 1: think they can control the situation, they think they can
16:08
Speaker 1: talk their way out of it. Nancy, how many narcissists
16:11
Speaker 1: have you prosecuted? Many many that you you scratched your
16:15
Speaker 1: head and said, you really thought you could control the situation.
16:18
Speaker 1: But they do because they're arrogant. Time stories with Nancy Grace,
16:37
Speaker 1: you know, to Chris mcdunna joining me. He is the
16:41
Speaker 1: director at the Cold Case Foundation, a former homicide detective
16:45
Speaker 1: many many years, hosts of a YouTube channel, the Interview Room.
16:48
Speaker 1: You can find him at Cold Case Foundation dot org
16:50
Speaker 1: and you can find Bland Eric Bland at bland Richter
16:54
Speaker 1: dot com. Chris, nothing would make Meanwell, I take that back.
16:59
Speaker 1: A lot of things would make me matter. But one
17:01
Speaker 1: thing that would make me mad as a wet hen
17:05
Speaker 1: is for someone to come up and try to trade
17:08
Speaker 1: on our familiarity, you know, like, hey, Nancy, no, we're
17:13
Speaker 1: all friends. There are very few quote old friends that
17:17
Speaker 1: are defense lawyers. In fact, very few at all. I
17:21
Speaker 1: could count all defense lawyers that are my friends on
17:24
Speaker 1: one hand because as a prosecutor, I could not blur
17:28
Speaker 1: that line. That would be unethical to me. And for
17:31
Speaker 1: someone to come and go, hey, you know my family,
17:34
Speaker 1: you know me, we're friends, we go back, we went
17:36
Speaker 1: to law school together. B s don't care. So, Chris mcdonnoh,
17:41
Speaker 1: has anyone, after all those years of you being a
17:44
Speaker 1: homicide detective come up and try to parlay their way
17:48
Speaker 1: into some kind of an advantage or a sweet deal,
17:51
Speaker 1: because that's no friend at all to expect you to
17:54
Speaker 1: do the wrong thing. Oh no, yeah, Nancy, three words greed, addiction,
18:01
Speaker 1: and desperation. You know. I we heard testimony where Sled
18:10
Speaker 1: was going to go do an interview and guess what,
18:13
Speaker 1: he filled the room with a room full of lawyers.
18:17
Speaker 1: I've never had a case where I've walked into a
18:22
Speaker 1: room as the door opens and I scan the room
18:26
Speaker 1: and I see that everybody in that room except potentially
18:29
Speaker 1: two people are practicing law And why are they practicing
18:36
Speaker 1: that day in that room to talk about the timeline
18:41
Speaker 1: and all the minutia events that are going on in
18:47
Speaker 1: Alex Murdoch's life. So no, I've never had somebody come up,
18:53
Speaker 1: you know, play a friend to me and then, you know,
18:56
Speaker 1: later on try to you know, play it off. Ann
19:00
Speaker 1: Emerson is joining US senior investigative reporter WCIVY, ABC News
19:06
Speaker 1: and she is the host of an award winning daily podcast,
19:10
Speaker 1: Unsolved South Carolina, The Murdoch Murders, Money and Mystery. And Emerson,
19:16
Speaker 1: great to have you with us. Tell me everything, don't
19:20
Speaker 1: leave anything out go Oh my gosh, I mean, once
19:24
Speaker 1: again we have this trial within a trial going now
19:27
Speaker 1: we've had some resolution earlier today. Of course, the financial
19:30
Speaker 1: crimes are coming in, which it could be a devastating
19:34
Speaker 1: blow to the defense. Right now, it certainly feels like
19:38
Speaker 1: a huge deal. But the judge said, you know, when
19:42
Speaker 1: he came across his ruling, he said, yes, I'm allowing
19:45
Speaker 1: all of these financial charges, all of these crimes that
19:49
Speaker 1: Alec Murdoch is alleged to commit. It's coming in as evidence.
19:55
Speaker 1: And this is the judge said. He found it so
19:58
Speaker 1: intimately connect tom and explanatory. I think it's essential to
20:04
Speaker 1: allow the state to use us in their motivation or
20:10
Speaker 1: for committing what they say, um Alec Murdock did, which
20:13
Speaker 1: was kill his wife and son. So that happened this morning, Nancy,
20:17
Speaker 1: and then Hey, and once we kind of got through
20:20
Speaker 1: that and the jury came back in, Hey and yes,
20:23
Speaker 1: I want to play that for our listeners and viewers
20:27
Speaker 1: right now. It's in our cut eight. But this is
20:30
Speaker 1: a turning point in my mind. A lot has been
20:34
Speaker 1: happening in the courtroom, but when the judge decided to
20:37
Speaker 1: allow this motive evidence in, it's a real game changer
20:42
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, because we all know that
20:46
Speaker 1: Alex mur Murdoch is a POC. That's a technical legal term,
20:50
Speaker 1: but the jury doesn't know it. The jury doesn't know
20:53
Speaker 1: it because it's Eric Bland pointed out. In our country
20:57
Speaker 1: and our jurisprudent system, a defendant is judged and evaluated
21:03
Speaker 1: on the crime at hand, not based on bad reputation
21:07
Speaker 1: or past bad acts. I want you to hear how
21:10
Speaker 1: the judge reached his decision in our cut eight. Listener.
21:15
Speaker 1: While motive is not a necessary element, the state must
21:18
Speaker 1: prove malice, and evidence of motive may be used to
21:24
Speaker 1: prove it. And in this case, since the identity of
21:28
Speaker 1: the perpetrator is a critical element that must be proven
21:32
Speaker 1: beyond the reasonable doubt, evidence of motive may be used
21:39
Speaker 1: in an attempt to meet that burden. I find that
21:42
Speaker 1: it is so intimately connected with an explanatory of the
21:48
Speaker 1: crime charge under the theory of the state is seeking
21:53
Speaker 1: to prove that proof of it is essential to complete
21:58
Speaker 1: the story and conclude us. The state's motion to admit
22:08
Speaker 1: of other evidence our everdence the other crimes is admitted. Wow,
22:15
Speaker 1: you know earlier you were hearing Eric Bland describing Alex
22:20
Speaker 1: murdog bullying people, intimidating witnesses. Before I go back to
22:25
Speaker 1: Anne Emerson joining us from WCIV, I want you to
22:29
Speaker 1: hear it the way we all heard it, straight out
22:32
Speaker 1: of the courtroom and our cut nine, and you'll recognize
22:36
Speaker 1: this is Alex Murdog is talking about Alex Murlog telling
22:43
Speaker 1: someone he was at the house with her it's his
22:47
Speaker 1: mother's caretaker, that's who it is, for thirty or forty minutes.
22:50
Speaker 1: And the woman is trying to stick to her guns
22:52
Speaker 1: and say that's not true. Take a listen to our
22:55
Speaker 1: cut nine. He was at the house, and I'm not
22:59
Speaker 1: one hundred said following he was telling you or saying
23:02
Speaker 1: to you that he was at the house when the
23:05
Speaker 1: night of the murders, the night of the murder. Yes,
23:07
Speaker 1: what was he telling you about that he was at
23:09
Speaker 1: the house the night of the murderer, that he'd been
23:12
Speaker 1: in thirty to forty minutes. Did he indicate to you
23:15
Speaker 1: what he wants you to do with that information? No? No, not.
23:18
Speaker 1: What did he say? He did said that he was
23:20
Speaker 1: at the house the thirty to forty minutes. I said,
23:26
Speaker 1: he said, what was he there at thirty to forty minutes?
23:35
Speaker 1: That night, not to Michael call, why are you crying?
23:43
Speaker 1: Who said, because he's a good family, a good family,
23:49
Speaker 1: and I love work getting there and I'm sorry all
23:52
Speaker 1: this happened. You know what I don't like. And there
23:54
Speaker 1: were some hands he I don't like that was crushing
23:57
Speaker 1: to climate When someone who is as rich and educated
24:03
Speaker 1: and well positioned trying to intimidate or bully someone who
24:10
Speaker 1: was not as powerful or as cunning as they are,
24:15
Speaker 1: I don't like this. Lady is reduced to tears on
24:19
Speaker 1: the stand. Did you hear what she says, I've been
24:21
Speaker 1: with his family a long time. I like working with them.
24:25
Speaker 1: I mean too, she along with him that she would
24:31
Speaker 1: lose her job. It was absolutely a moment in that
24:35
Speaker 1: courtroom when she started to break down, and you knew
24:38
Speaker 1: that she had already said that she was only there,
24:41
Speaker 1: that he had only been there for about fifteen to
24:43
Speaker 1: twenty minutes, and had made that very clear in her testimony.
24:47
Speaker 1: And when this came up, and this was at the
24:50
Speaker 1: at the funeral, after the funeral of mister Randolph of
24:55
Speaker 1: Alec's father, that Alec would come up and say, I
24:58
Speaker 1: was there, I was here for thirty or forty minutes
25:02
Speaker 1: and that's what he told her. This was this is
25:05
Speaker 1: a very obviously was a very hard thing for her
25:08
Speaker 1: to deal with. Do you know what the first thing
25:09
Speaker 1: was that she said she did when when he said
25:12
Speaker 1: that though, she called her brother, and you know who
25:15
Speaker 1: her brother is chief of police over at another small town.
25:20
Speaker 1: That was the first reaction she had. And he said,
25:23
Speaker 1: why did you call your brother who is a chief
25:25
Speaker 1: of police, And she said, because there was not something
25:29
Speaker 1: right about this. So, you know, she knew that she
25:33
Speaker 1: had to deal with that information right off the bat
25:35
Speaker 1: because it was it was strange. Other things that were
25:38
Speaker 1: strange that she talks about that I'm sure defense is
25:41
Speaker 1: going to be talking about as well. But the prosecution
25:44
Speaker 1: asked her when he came over that night, what did
25:47
Speaker 1: he have on? He had on a T shirt, he
25:49
Speaker 1: had on his shorts, he had on some Sperry shoes.
25:53
Speaker 1: What did he do? He came and he laid down
25:56
Speaker 1: on or was lying sort of on the bed with
25:58
Speaker 1: his mom for fifteen or twenty minutes. Unusual time. Yes,
26:03
Speaker 1: she said, it was an unusual time for him to come.
26:06
Speaker 1: That she doesn't remember him coming that time of night.
26:09
Speaker 1: And something we've heard before about Alzheimer's patience is that
26:14
Speaker 1: which Miss Libby, from what we understand, was suffering from.
26:18
Speaker 1: That's not a great time of night for Alzheimer's patience.
26:21
Speaker 1: So once again, just another another layer in this or
26:27
Speaker 1: a thread in the rope of the circumstantial evidence of
26:31
Speaker 1: what's going on. But there's more, Nancy. But you tell
26:33
Speaker 1: me if you have a kind of on what happened
26:36
Speaker 1: with the blue tarp that was sort of the next
26:42
Speaker 1: devastating blue. I want to go through what you've already said,
26:45
Speaker 1: and if I could get Christine, because you put up
26:49
Speaker 1: the lady witness the caretaker again, because I guarantee you
26:55
Speaker 1: making a lady like this, a fine lady breakdown in
27:00
Speaker 1: tears on the stand. What you don't want to do
27:05
Speaker 1: is make a witness cry unless they're a flat out
27:08
Speaker 1: liar or they're defendant the defendant. I don't know problem
27:11
Speaker 1: in making the defendant cry on the stand. I love that,
27:14
Speaker 1: But this lady is just trying to do her job
27:16
Speaker 1: and mind her own business. And it's never a good
27:20
Speaker 1: thing when for the defendant, if the jury perceives he
27:24
Speaker 1: has put her in a bad position and is making
27:28
Speaker 1: this lady cry on the stand and call her brother
27:33
Speaker 1: out of fear. Now, Anne Emerson, I played the sound
27:38
Speaker 1: for our listeners, but I want you to tell us
27:41
Speaker 1: in detail what she said, how everyone was reacting. I
27:47
Speaker 1: want to hear the whole thing in technicolor tell me everything.
27:52
Speaker 1: I think it's so important to understand, like exactly what
27:55
Speaker 1: was happening in there. It was kind of one of
27:57
Speaker 1: those moments where time slowed down a little, but for
28:00
Speaker 1: all of us because we're hearing that she had just
28:03
Speaker 1: said that she knew that he had been there for
28:05
Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty minutes, and for him to just sort
28:08
Speaker 1: of walk up at that point at a very emotional
28:11
Speaker 1: time when they've just lost, uh, you know, the patriarch,
28:15
Speaker 1: Randolph Murdoch, and she he from what she said, he
28:20
Speaker 1: came up to her and said, I was there for
28:23
Speaker 1: thirty or forty minutes. And she didn't say anything when
28:27
Speaker 1: that happened, but it was enough to kind of take
28:30
Speaker 1: her take her a minute. But when the when the
28:34
Speaker 1: when the crowds cleared from that, from that gathering with
28:37
Speaker 1: all the family there, she went and called her brother.
28:40
Speaker 1: Now what was going on in the courtroom. When she
28:42
Speaker 1: told this, it took her a couple of times to
28:45
Speaker 1: get it out. As you heard, it took her a
28:47
Speaker 1: minute to get it out. You've got Alec the defendant,
28:52
Speaker 1: you know, sitting at the defense table, and he is
28:56
Speaker 1: staring hard at this witness, Miss Shelley. He was staring
29:04
Speaker 1: very hard at what she was saying. The family is
29:09
Speaker 1: literally leaning in because you know, you've got Buster Murdoch
29:12
Speaker 1: and you've got John Marvin who've been at you know, everything,
29:14
Speaker 1: Lynn Murdoch. I was watching very closely his sister and
29:18
Speaker 1: they were really listening to this, and he knew that
29:24
Speaker 1: this felt like new information. The way she was sharing it.
29:29
Speaker 1: It made the information that they had heard, but they
29:31
Speaker 1: had not heard a woman who was so close to
29:34
Speaker 1: that family say it like that. And you know that
29:37
Speaker 1: jury that Jerry was paying literally hanging on her every
29:42
Speaker 1: word of what she was going to say next. It
29:44
Speaker 1: was a it was anand powerful moment. Is this Eric,
29:49
Speaker 1: go ahead, Jopan, Eric Bland. You're going to hear after
29:51
Speaker 1: lunch the statement that she made to the investigators. And
29:57
Speaker 1: I'm sure she may not have in such clear terms
30:02
Speaker 1: the thirty to forty minute suggestion. And Alex said, and
30:06
Speaker 1: understand why she's got a job she's taking care of
30:11
Speaker 1: Miss Libby. Alex is not charged at that time. Alex
30:16
Speaker 1: is still a powerful lawyer at that time. Alex and
30:19
Speaker 1: his family run the county at that time, So it's
30:23
Speaker 1: not beyond seeing why maybe she didn't give such a
30:27
Speaker 1: detailed statement to either the police or to the defense
30:32
Speaker 1: at that time because Alex wasn't charged. Now that he's charged,
30:38
Speaker 1: maybe she has a little bit more personal protection that
30:43
Speaker 1: she feels. But I'm not moved if I didn't hear
30:46
Speaker 1: her say the thirty to forty minute suggestion in her
30:49
Speaker 1: first interview, because Alex is still full of power today,
30:53
Speaker 1: he's newter. So that's going to be interesting to see
30:56
Speaker 1: what we hear after lunch. Absolutely about you know, that
31:01
Speaker 1: is a defense statement. That's a statement that the prosecution
31:04
Speaker 1: says that they didn't get. So this is the defense,
31:07
Speaker 1: um like handing over thirty minutes or so of a
31:11
Speaker 1: statement that they got from this witness. And the way
31:14
Speaker 1: I understood it, And tell me if I'm wrong, But
31:16
Speaker 1: the way I understood it was that the prosecution didn't
31:19
Speaker 1: have this in their discovery, which I think is going
31:21
Speaker 1: to be a bonu intention for sharp They did not.
31:23
Speaker 1: They did not. It would be like John Gotti's lawyer,
31:26
Speaker 1: Bruce Cutler coming up to the witness since and trying
31:31
Speaker 1: to get a statement. And John Gotti hasn't been accused yet.
31:35
Speaker 1: I mean, you're going to be a little bit circumspect
31:38
Speaker 1: of what you're going to say. And she viewed the
31:42
Speaker 1: same way that somebody in New York City would view
31:44
Speaker 1: John Gotti. He's that big Ann Emerson. Are you saying
31:48
Speaker 1: that the defense attorney approached Miss Shelley Smith, Michelle Shelley
31:55
Speaker 1: Smith before Alex Ronog was charged to get a statement
32:01
Speaker 1: from her. Is that what you're saying. I don't know
32:04
Speaker 1: when the statement was taken. I don't know if Eric
32:06
Speaker 1: caught that. But I haven't heard exactly when the statement
32:09
Speaker 1: was given to the defense. But what we know that
32:12
Speaker 1: it was given and this is new information at least
32:15
Speaker 1: that's the way they reacted, the prosecution, the States reacted.
32:20
Speaker 1: I can't understand you. Just let me just make it
32:23
Speaker 1: really simple. Do we know who took the statement from
32:27
Speaker 1: Michelle Shelley Smith? Who took the statement? Defense? Okay, did
32:31
Speaker 1: the defense hand the statement over to the government? No? No,
32:39
Speaker 1: Just now, from what we understand, we want you to
32:41
Speaker 1: hear what we're talking about it's our cut nine Christine,
32:45
Speaker 1: if you could play that one more time. And what
32:48
Speaker 1: this is about is Alex Murdog telling Miss Michelle Shelley Smith, Oh, yes,
32:55
Speaker 1: I was there forty minutes the night of the murders.
32:58
Speaker 1: And she's like, no, you were listen and what did
33:02
Speaker 1: he did? He was at the house And I'm not
33:04
Speaker 1: one hundred and following he was telling you or saying
33:07
Speaker 1: to you that he was at the house when um
33:10
Speaker 1: did night of the murders, night of the murder. Yes,
33:13
Speaker 1: what was he telling you about that he was at
33:15
Speaker 1: the house the night of the murderer, that he'd been
33:17
Speaker 1: in thirty to forty minutes. Did he indicate to you
33:20
Speaker 1: what he wants you to do with that information? No? No,
33:23
Speaker 1: what did he say? He did say that he was
33:25
Speaker 1: at the house for thirty to forty minutes, I said,
33:31
Speaker 1: he said, what was he there at thirty to forty
33:40
Speaker 1: minutes that night? Not to Michael came, why are you crying?
33:49
Speaker 1: He said, because he was a good fami, a good
33:53
Speaker 1: family and I love work getting there and I'm sorry
33:57
Speaker 1: all this happened. And there you see this lady witness
34:01
Speaker 1: on the stand saying quote, I'm sorry all this happened.
34:05
Speaker 1: She is apologizing. He's the one that's accused of double murder.
34:10
Speaker 1: She's not accused of anything, but this lady is crying
34:14
Speaker 1: and she's up on the stand apologizing crime stories with
34:33
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys, you heard Anne Emerson joining us from
34:39
Speaker 1: wcv ABC talking about a blue tarp. I want you
34:44
Speaker 1: to hear it just the way we heard it in
34:47
Speaker 1: the courtroom, and is our cut ten and then we'll
34:50
Speaker 1: go to Anne and let her explain and get doctor
34:53
Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree to follow up. Guys, take a listen to
34:56
Speaker 1: our cut ten about the blue tarp, get a blue
34:59
Speaker 1: suthing his ann It was like a talk that get
35:01
Speaker 1: put on the car, you kick your car? Covered up
35:03
Speaker 1: big thing? Yeah, blue? And was he holding it like this?
35:07
Speaker 1: That's not Mister Murdock came in your alma residence that morning,
35:11
Speaker 1: sister Stakes two twenty three. Do you recognize that? Yes?
35:15
Speaker 1: What is that upstairs? Going upstairs? And is that where
35:19
Speaker 1: he went Alex Murton all that morning, Yes, carrying some
35:23
Speaker 1: blue thing. Did you ever see that blue thing unfolded
35:28
Speaker 1: when you were that morning or you saw him carrying it?
35:30
Speaker 1: It was unfolded? Okay, where'd you see it in the
35:33
Speaker 1: bed room when you came back the next day? Was
35:35
Speaker 1: that there? No, it was? It was gone, yes and
35:38
Speaker 1: so And did you see Alex Gornol leave after you
35:43
Speaker 1: went upstairs? Do you know what he did upstairs? No?
35:45
Speaker 1: I know that morning this morning when you first saw
35:49
Speaker 1: him at six thirty, did you observe anything about his face?
35:53
Speaker 1: And he on his face thinking, I get a little colored,
35:57
Speaker 1: a little blue color something, and man I apologized, attack
36:01
Speaker 1: alack a little bruise or something. Where was it? Because
36:04
Speaker 1: above forty year out too and Emerson joining us wuc
36:08
Speaker 1: IV and what happened, well, you know she talks about
36:12
Speaker 1: what happened about three days after Randolph Murdoch's funeral. They
36:18
Speaker 1: she's described it like the tents were still up in
36:20
Speaker 1: the yard so early morning, it was like six thirty
36:23
Speaker 1: in the morning. When she hears a knock at the
36:26
Speaker 1: bedroom window. He doesn't do what he did the last
36:28
Speaker 1: time when he came on June seventh, when he came
36:31
Speaker 1: in um and actually kind of came to the door
36:34
Speaker 1: and said let me in. He went to a bedroom door,
36:38
Speaker 1: knocks on the window. She comes around, lets him in,
36:41
Speaker 1: and he said he's carrying it, and the way they
36:44
Speaker 1: sort of described it is this blue tart vinyl material
36:50
Speaker 1: kind of bundled up and he's holding it like this
36:53
Speaker 1: like a baby. I don't know if you can see it,
36:55
Speaker 1: but like holding it like this is the way they
36:57
Speaker 1: talked about it, to the point where you know, she
36:59
Speaker 1: was getting down from the stand holding like where it was,
37:03
Speaker 1: looking at the blue tarp. There was a lot of
37:05
Speaker 1: action going on in the courtroom, and I've seen it
37:08
Speaker 1: from both sides honestly, where they bring the witnesses down
37:11
Speaker 1: to really kind of show what they're talking about. But
37:14
Speaker 1: they do that, but there is also with this blue
37:17
Speaker 1: tarp that he goes up to a bedroom. Now Defense
37:21
Speaker 1: gets a little bit, digs a little deeper with Miss
37:24
Speaker 1: Shelley and asks her, you know, how much have you
37:26
Speaker 1: been upstairs? And trying to I think poke holes and
37:30
Speaker 1: exactly where she saw this. But what we understand is
37:34
Speaker 1: this blue tarp had gone into a bedroom that she
37:37
Speaker 1: doesn't really go up to very often because she's always
37:39
Speaker 1: with Miss Libby downstairs. But he goes he puts this
37:43
Speaker 1: blue tarp over Miss Libby's retirement rocker, like an old rocker,
37:49
Speaker 1: and then the next day has gone, so there's this
37:52
Speaker 1: mystery around that. There's also a mystery around what car
37:56
Speaker 1: he was driving when he came in and left and
37:59
Speaker 1: then came back. It seems like we're and I've asked
38:02
Speaker 1: the other reporters that we were sitting around, I was like,
38:04
Speaker 1: did we get a clear idea of like these trucks
38:08
Speaker 1: and the vehicles that they're talking about that we're moving
38:11
Speaker 1: in and out because we heard there was a white
38:13
Speaker 1: truck that day and then there was a black truck
38:16
Speaker 1: that day. We also heard that an ATV, like an
38:19
Speaker 1: all trained vehicle they use on these farms and out
38:21
Speaker 1: in the country had also had been moved on on
38:27
Speaker 1: this property at Almeda. This is where alex parents, Libby
38:31
Speaker 1: and Randolph Murdock lived. So we need to find out
38:35
Speaker 1: a little bit more after lunch about what's going on
38:37
Speaker 1: with this truck and the vehicles and how it ties
38:39
Speaker 1: into what they think happened with this blue tart. Joining
38:43
Speaker 1: me is doctor Michelle Dupree, forensic scientist, medical examine or,
38:48
Speaker 1: former detective and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Doctor
38:54
Speaker 1: Dupree explained the significance of the blue tart that, according
38:59
Speaker 1: to Miss Michelle on the stand. Alex Murlog brought over
39:05
Speaker 1: to his mother's home the night of the murders. Nancy.
39:09
Speaker 1: There's a couple things interesting about this. First of all,
39:11
Speaker 1: she said that this was very early for him, that
39:14
Speaker 1: he's never in her three years ten year working there
39:17
Speaker 1: come to visit this early. And he's carrying this blue
39:20
Speaker 1: tarp or whatever it may be. There is some significance
39:23
Speaker 1: because during the investigation a blue item was found with
39:28
Speaker 1: significant gunshot residue on it. Now is that the same
39:31
Speaker 1: item or not? I'm not sure that we really know.
39:34
Speaker 1: But what other blue item could there be? And Emmer said,
39:38
Speaker 1: I thought she said he never came over that late
39:41
Speaker 1: at night. Well, that's true, that true, That's what That's
39:44
Speaker 1: what they talked about was. She said she hadn't seen
39:46
Speaker 1: him come that late when he came on June seventh,
39:50
Speaker 1: that he normally did not come that late, so these
39:53
Speaker 1: were unusual times. And she also said that early visiting
39:57
Speaker 1: his mom. You know another thing about the blue tarp.
40:00
Speaker 1: Isn't it true? An Emerson that gunshot residue was allegedly
40:04
Speaker 1: found on the blue she thought a blue tarp. Tell me,
40:08
Speaker 1: tell me about the blue tarp. Well, that's what the
40:10
Speaker 1: prosecution has been talking about. And there's been a lot
40:13
Speaker 1: of like talking amongst them, you know, about this tarp
40:17
Speaker 1: versus a raincoat? Was it a raincoat, because of course
40:19
Speaker 1: we know the weather was really bad the night of
40:22
Speaker 1: the murders, But the blue tarp is what they seem
40:26
Speaker 1: to be kind of sticking with right now, and that, yes,
40:29
Speaker 1: that's what we've been told early on in this trial,
40:33
Speaker 1: as they as they were going through what kind of
40:36
Speaker 1: evidence that they were going to present, they certainly spoke
40:39
Speaker 1: about this blue tarp with with gunshot residue that they
40:42
Speaker 1: found on the inside. And now we need to find
40:45
Speaker 1: out where they actually got that blue tarp. We've heard
40:48
Speaker 1: that it was in a closet, but we've got we've
40:50
Speaker 1: got to hear more from the prosecution about how they're
40:53
Speaker 1: going to use us now when she describes it, obviously
40:57
Speaker 1: there was a lot of intimating going on in that
41:00
Speaker 1: courtroom that there was something wrapped up. That's where the
41:03
Speaker 1: prosecution was going with was that he was something was
41:06
Speaker 1: wrapped up like a rifle. They even said it once,
41:09
Speaker 1: they said was it like a rifle? And I think
41:12
Speaker 1: they objected to that, But the defense was like you
41:15
Speaker 1: know they're going to argue. They're arguing the semantics of
41:17
Speaker 1: what it looks like to see a blue tarp in
41:19
Speaker 1: somebody's arms wrapped up. So I think that's what they're
41:22
Speaker 1: working with right now to Eric Bland, high profile lawyer
41:25
Speaker 1: joining us out of South Carolina. Eric, in my mind,
41:29
Speaker 1: in every case I've ever tried, there's always that one
41:34
Speaker 1: moment when everything changes, and I truly believe that Michelle
41:41
Speaker 1: Shelley Smith was that moment because I believe that this
41:48
Speaker 1: one witness is so credible and so believable that it
41:53
Speaker 1: changes everything to the state's benefit. Yeah, she covered a
41:58
Speaker 1: lot of bases for the state. She's possible Gunshoy residue,
42:03
Speaker 1: she's covering the power of the murdles, she's covering the
42:07
Speaker 1: alibi creation by Alex. But what she really conveys is
42:13
Speaker 1: the intimidation factor a witness that you saw, the palpable
42:20
Speaker 1: fear and anxiety that she was under just talking about them,
42:24
Speaker 1: even at a time where Alex is behind bars and
42:27
Speaker 1: has been behind bars for fourteen months. So this is
42:31
Speaker 1: how this happens. You know it's going to be interesting
42:34
Speaker 1: Nancy on the drug issue, because I heard one of
42:37
Speaker 1: the experts said addiction. The state can either use the
42:40
Speaker 1: drugs to their advantage by saying Alex was under opioids
42:44
Speaker 1: which created a heightened sense of anxiety and lack of
42:49
Speaker 1: rational thought. I for one, don't believe it because I
42:53
Speaker 1: don't think he would be able to have appeared in court,
42:56
Speaker 1: gone to Thanksgiving dinners with his family, you know, being
42:59
Speaker 1: partner's meetings and client meetings. He would have fallen asleep
43:03
Speaker 1: or would have exhibited some kind of behavior that would
43:08
Speaker 1: have clude people in that he was on drugs. So
43:10
Speaker 1: I think the drugs are red herring issue, but it
43:12
Speaker 1: can be used by the state to say that he
43:15
Speaker 1: wasn't rational when he did it. But this witness, I
43:19
Speaker 1: think Tony Satterfield, when he comes on now and testifies
43:23
Speaker 1: in court and Mark Tinsley, I may come on to
43:27
Speaker 1: just talk about the confession of judgment that we got.
43:31
Speaker 1: This is looking at Alex in a whole new light.
43:35
Speaker 1: He's no longer you know, the shine on the Venerable
43:39
Speaker 1: Dome is starting a dull a little bit. That's what
43:42
Speaker 1: we're seeing. I think it's true too. I think saying
43:45
Speaker 1: that came out in court with this witness on the
43:48
Speaker 1: stand and Emerson is that this witness. Didn't she call
43:54
Speaker 1: Alex rdog? Didn't she say he was acting very fidgety?
43:57
Speaker 1: He yes, I was gonna say, yeah, absolutely, she talked
44:01
Speaker 1: about how he was fidgetty. The defense immediately as soon
44:04
Speaker 1: as they got into cross with that, they tried to
44:06
Speaker 1: like talk about how that's just his personality, how he's
44:10
Speaker 1: always kind of on the go and moving. But yes,
44:13
Speaker 1: she absolutely talked about how he looked fidgetty that night
44:16
Speaker 1: and that can't that can't be good. But you know,
44:18
Speaker 1: I want to tell you one other thing about intimidation
44:22
Speaker 1: that the prosecution tried to play up as well when
44:24
Speaker 1: they were when they were when they were when she
44:27
Speaker 1: was testifying, she talked about how she was getting married.
44:31
Speaker 1: And this happened at the same time he said about
44:34
Speaker 1: the I was there thirty or forty minutes, you know,
44:37
Speaker 1: talking to Shelley at after that funeral, and she he said,
44:43
Speaker 1: so you're getting married soon, and she said yeah, and
44:45
Speaker 1: he goes, you know, weddings are expensive, and she goes,
44:48
Speaker 1: I know, and he was, he said, she testified that
44:52
Speaker 1: he was like, well, you know, he's I'll be helping
44:55
Speaker 1: out with that, you know. Basically I'm gonna help. I'm
44:58
Speaker 1: gonna help with that with that way. I know how
45:00
Speaker 1: expensive this wedding is, and she took it for the goodness.
45:04
Speaker 1: And she even said at one point she thought Alec
45:06
Speaker 1: Mardoc was a good person. It was their relationship. But
45:11
Speaker 1: the fact that she brought it up in this testimony,
45:13
Speaker 1: I think it is important to bring up another layer
45:17
Speaker 1: of control and power and intimidation is what the same
45:24
Speaker 1: screwing a bribe good you try? It handles so many
45:29
Speaker 1: homicide investigations. I know the defense is going to try
45:33
Speaker 1: to swing this fidgety description to their benefit, but possibly
45:39
Speaker 1: saying yeah, he had an addiction. I don't think it's
45:41
Speaker 1: ever good for a jury to find out you're high,
45:46
Speaker 1: You're high as a kite all the time. I don't
45:50
Speaker 1: think that ever helps, do you not at all? And
45:53
Speaker 1: in fact, what the jury's also going to hear the
45:57
Speaker 1: type of addiction, if it's an opioid, that's actually going
46:01
Speaker 1: to slow down his uh, you know, his internal symptomology,
46:06
Speaker 1: which is going to lead us back to that interview
46:09
Speaker 1: in the car the night of that incident. You know,
46:14
Speaker 1: I look at Alex Murdoch as a very good I
46:18
Speaker 1: would describe a three card Monty player, right, remember that
46:21
Speaker 1: old game where you you know, find find the right card.
46:26
Speaker 1: He is a master manipulator, and he's put so much
46:30
Speaker 1: emotional stress upon that witness that we just saw. However,
46:34
Speaker 1: his undoing is going to be a couple of things
46:38
Speaker 1: that he brought out out of his own mouth the
46:40
Speaker 1: night in that car. A couple of them. One is
46:45
Speaker 1: the fact that he rolls his son over after witnessing uh,
46:49
Speaker 1: you know, allegedly body parts next to the body. And
46:53
Speaker 1: what does he introduce into the conversation a cell phone?
46:58
Speaker 1: Why is that relevant? I think we all can understand
47:03
Speaker 1: that he picked it up and he was going to
47:06
Speaker 1: do something with it and then change his mind and
47:08
Speaker 1: put it down. Well, that just kind of ties into
47:11
Speaker 1: the investigative, you know, evidence that we heard about that
47:17
Speaker 1: cell phone you screen changing distance, and it also brings
47:21
Speaker 1: relevance to the fact that Maggie's phone is different. But
47:25
Speaker 1: the gun aspect of this is the shotgun that he
47:29
Speaker 1: was holding when law enforcement came onto the scene that night.
47:34
Speaker 1: There he now puts his fingerprints on it. He gives
47:37
Speaker 1: a reason for it. But that also is another three
47:42
Speaker 1: card Monty play in my opinion, because now the defense
47:46
Speaker 1: can argue, look this guy, you know, he told you
47:49
Speaker 1: he had a shotgun. He told you he picked up
47:53
Speaker 1: the cell phone. Well, isn't it interesting that now we
47:56
Speaker 1: have this blue tarp with gunshot us to do on it,
48:01
Speaker 1: and there is one gun mission. So I think the
48:07
Speaker 1: minutia details here again, Nancy, are going to be crucial
48:11
Speaker 1: for the witnesses to continue to testify to and the
48:16
Speaker 1: jury to Here, Doctor Michelle do pretty joining me out
48:19
Speaker 1: of that jurisdiction. She's joining us from South Carolina forensic pathologists,
48:23
Speaker 1: medical examiner, former detective, and author. All this evidence we're
48:29
Speaker 1: amassing regarding Alex Murlog's opioid addiction. Explain what type of
48:36
Speaker 1: medications that would be in street talk, and also how
48:42
Speaker 1: an opioid addiction would affect you. Would you be fidgety
48:47
Speaker 1: or would you be lethargic? Nancy, that's a very good question.
48:50
Speaker 1: It's a very good observation because an opioid is a
48:53
Speaker 1: central nervous system depressant, which means that it slows things down.
48:57
Speaker 1: So we're going to see him instead of beg we're
49:00
Speaker 1: going to see him be much more like he was
49:02
Speaker 1: the night of the interview, taking things more slowly, and
49:07
Speaker 1: he's going to be thinking a lot, probably and again
49:12
Speaker 1: not in a fidgety sense. If that was his normal
49:16
Speaker 1: behavior at fidgeting, then we're going to see him not
49:19
Speaker 1: do that so much if he's on opioids. The other
49:21
Speaker 1: thing is if he has had an opioid addiction for
49:24
Speaker 1: such a long time, he is not going to look
49:27
Speaker 1: as healthy as he does. You would never look at
49:30
Speaker 1: him and suspect that he had an opioid, a long
49:32
Speaker 1: term chronic opioid addiction. Why do you say that because
49:36
Speaker 1: you're going to have a thinner appearance, You're not going
49:40
Speaker 1: to appear as healthy. It is an addiction and it
49:43
Speaker 1: causes physical changes to your body. My concern is why
49:47
Speaker 1: haven't they mentioned his gambling issues. We know that judges,
49:52
Speaker 1: attorneys people in the Low Country ever since I can remember,
49:56
Speaker 1: when court is in session they all go over to
49:58
Speaker 1: Ladies Island and have big time Las Vegas style gambling games. Okay,
50:03
Speaker 1: I hope you're not speaking of that from firsthand witness account.
50:07
Speaker 1: But common names of opioids are oxy which can be oxycodone, vicodin, norco, laura,
50:16
Speaker 1: tib percocet, trauma dog. Those are types of pills that
50:22
Speaker 1: have a high opioid content, and if you want to
50:26
Speaker 1: wonder what would opioids do to you? Has everybody in
50:30
Speaker 1: this room seeing the Wizard of Oz? Yes? No, yes, Okay.
50:34
Speaker 1: Remember when Dorothy was trying to get to the Emerald
50:37
Speaker 1: City and she came across a poppy field and she
50:40
Speaker 1: became sleepy, and the dog got sleepy, and the ten
50:44
Speaker 1: men guy, everybody fell asleep, I think, but the dog. Anyway,
50:49
Speaker 1: long story short, opioids slow you down. So why was
50:55
Speaker 1: Alex murdog so fidgetty? According to and in my opinion,
51:00
Speaker 1: the best witness that's been put on the stand bar none,
51:05
Speaker 1: the housekeeper of the mom Michelle Shelley Smith, I think
51:09
Speaker 1: has been the best witness that the state has put
51:12
Speaker 1: up so far. Why, according to her, was he finchety
51:15
Speaker 1: if he's on opioids, because he just committed a double murder.
51:19
Speaker 1: And that leads me to the next thing. And Emerson.
51:23
Speaker 1: She described what he was wearing when he got there
51:25
Speaker 1: was a white T shirt and the shorts. So what
51:27
Speaker 1: happened to his clothes? And Emerson well, exactly, I mean,
51:31
Speaker 1: what the prosecution is teeing up for us is that
51:35
Speaker 1: he changed his clothes because we see in the snapchat
51:39
Speaker 1: video from earlier in that day that's already been admitted
51:43
Speaker 1: into evidence. We've already looked at it. It's he's got
51:46
Speaker 1: on a totally different outfit and this is a couple
51:49
Speaker 1: of hours beforehand, an hour beforehand, So this is to
51:55
Speaker 1: completely change his clothes. They asked him when he got
51:58
Speaker 1: you know, they both use it for their benefit. One
52:01
Speaker 1: is saying his clothes are clean as a whistle is
52:04
Speaker 1: what the defense is saying, and the prosecution saying that's
52:08
Speaker 1: because he changed his clothes. So you've got these two storylines.
52:12
Speaker 1: It's going to be very interesting to see how the
52:14
Speaker 1: jury reads it. But right now, that's why he's you know,
52:19
Speaker 1: every time we see him at any point during that day,
52:22
Speaker 1: someone's asking what did he have on what did the
52:25
Speaker 1: clothes look like, and was there blood on it? From
52:28
Speaker 1: what we understand, Shelley did not see any blood on
52:31
Speaker 1: his clothes. So Eric Bland, what did he do with
52:35
Speaker 1: his clothes? Well that's the question. You know, are they
52:38
Speaker 1: still at Mozelle. I've been there. There's half the acreage
52:44
Speaker 1: is swamp. I know that they have had divers in
52:47
Speaker 1: there and they had divers at all me to. You know,
52:51
Speaker 1: he knows that country better than anybody else that country area,
52:54
Speaker 1: So it could be somewhere we just don't know, or
52:59
Speaker 1: somebody could help them get rid of them. Okay, Now,
53:01
Speaker 1: Eric Bland, you're the renowned attorney out of South Carolina,
53:05
Speaker 1: not me. Now, when I say, Eric Bland, where do
53:09
Speaker 1: you think the clothes are? I'm expecting a little bit
53:11
Speaker 1: more than I don't know. I mean, based on the terrain,
53:15
Speaker 1: based on Mozelle. Yeah, I know he got rid of them,
53:18
Speaker 1: but is there a body of water? Is there a ravine?
53:22
Speaker 1: Do you I don't see him taking the time to
53:25
Speaker 1: bury them somewhere because he was trying to establish that
53:28
Speaker 1: alibi at his mother's house. So thinking through it, I've
53:33
Speaker 1: been on the property and there is tremendous areas of
53:37
Speaker 1: swamp where that where the guns and those clothes can
53:40
Speaker 1: be buried and they'll never be found. I've been in
53:44
Speaker 1: that country area there. There are a lot of nooks
53:47
Speaker 1: and crannies where and he could have been on his
53:49
Speaker 1: way to all me to after showering and cleaning himself off,
53:53
Speaker 1: that he temporarily hid this stuff. Look, Yellowstone has the
53:58
Speaker 1: train station there somewhere in in Moselle area there where
54:03
Speaker 1: there's something similar. Oh yeah, he got rid of it,
54:07
Speaker 1: but where and would he have risked going back to
54:11
Speaker 1: the hiding location to secure the clothes, get the clothes
54:15
Speaker 1: and then destroy them such as burn them. We also
54:18
Speaker 1: don't have a murder weapon. That's not the end of
54:20
Speaker 1: the world for the prosecution to an Emerson joining US
54:23
Speaker 1: senior investigative reporter wc IV ABC, and I heard the judge. Wow,
54:29
Speaker 1: I'm saying it overhead earlier of Moselle. It's huge. Those
54:33
Speaker 1: clothes could be anywhere. I understood that there is There's
54:38
Speaker 1: going to be half an hour for the jury to
54:42
Speaker 1: listen to something. What is it they're going to hear, Well,
54:45
Speaker 1: the journeys to hear what Miss Shelley, this witness that
54:49
Speaker 1: was on the stand. They are going to listen to
54:52
Speaker 1: what the defense when they interviewed her. And this is
54:56
Speaker 1: going to be part of um. This is going to
54:58
Speaker 1: be going into evidence said. But the journey needs to
55:02
Speaker 1: hear this conversation that the defense had with Shelley Smith.
55:07
Speaker 1: This is what the prosecution was talking about just before break.
55:10
Speaker 1: They were like, we don't know about this. We don't
55:12
Speaker 1: have this, it's not discovery. Why not we need to
55:15
Speaker 1: copy right now? And the judge totally agreed, he said absolutely,
55:19
Speaker 1: of course. I mean this was extraordinary because this is
55:23
Speaker 1: what the defense was up in arms about five months ago,
55:27
Speaker 1: that they weren't getting all the discovery in a timely fashion.
55:30
Speaker 1: So it was a surprise for all of us to
55:32
Speaker 1: hear that this hadn't been put in. But there's something else,
55:37
Speaker 1: and I don't want to take it too off track,
55:39
Speaker 1: but there's a conversation that was had that they are
55:44
Speaker 1: all arguing over about admitting. And this was a conversation
55:49
Speaker 1: right before that June tenth interview with law enforcement that
55:53
Speaker 1: John Griffin was at, Ronnie Crosby, Mark Ball, these are
55:57
Speaker 1: all these are attorneys at his at Murdock's former law firm,
56:01
Speaker 1: who are also close friends John Marvin buster Randy. Anyways,
56:07
Speaker 1: there was this whole group of people that had come
56:09
Speaker 1: together to support Alec Murdoch right before he was going
56:12
Speaker 1: to be giving the second interview to law enforcement. The
56:16
Speaker 1: state is trying to get that conversation. Witnesses to that
56:20
Speaker 1: conversation entered in. We heard about it on Friday as
56:24
Speaker 1: sort of this court Cliffhanger. We hear it today that
56:28
Speaker 1: we're still working toward getting this conversation that we haven't
56:32
Speaker 1: heard before law enforcement got it. What did Alec tell
56:36
Speaker 1: these people that they did not want to have admitted
56:41
Speaker 1: or that they're concerned about? What did Alex say to
56:45
Speaker 1: Ronnie Crosby, to Mark Ball, to these friends that were
56:48
Speaker 1: supporting them, and who was actually standing there. It's going
56:51
Speaker 1: to be it's gonna be important. It may just be
56:54
Speaker 1: digging a deeper hole as far as his alibi goes
56:58
Speaker 1: that he was taking a nap up at the house.
57:00
Speaker 1: That's where we're all kind of thinking. But we don't know.
57:04
Speaker 1: We don't know what he said to these folks. So
57:06
Speaker 1: that's why they want it entered into evidence. And it
57:08
Speaker 1: looks like I think they're getting it. You know. Eric
57:11
Speaker 1: Bland joined me, high profile lawyer out of Columbia. This
57:14
Speaker 1: is a real constitutional conundrum as I see it, because
57:20
Speaker 1: here you've got the defense taking a statement from a
57:24
Speaker 1: state's witness and then not handing it over to the
57:28
Speaker 1: state prior to trial. If the state had done that,
57:32
Speaker 1: the entire audio, the entire statement would be ruled out.
57:38
Speaker 1: The jury would never hear it because the state is
57:40
Speaker 1: under a duty to hand over the evidence to the
57:43
Speaker 1: defense to test and examine far prior to trial. So
57:50
Speaker 1: the problem is if the state seeks to exclude it
57:53
Speaker 1: because they never got it before trial to examine, then
57:57
Speaker 1: if there's a conviction, there's going to be a reversal
58:02
Speaker 1: because it could be argued the defense was inept. They're
58:06
Speaker 1: usually in criminal cases, as you know, the burden is
58:09
Speaker 1: on the state to produce inculpatory and exculpatory material to
58:14
Speaker 1: the defense. Yep. The defense doesn't have that same burden
58:18
Speaker 1: like in a civil case where there's mutuality of discovery
58:22
Speaker 1: obligations where one side gets to ask for all the
58:26
Speaker 1: stuff on the other side, and similarly vice versa. It's
58:29
Speaker 1: a little different in a criminal case. So there may
58:33
Speaker 1: be reasons why that was not turned over to the state,
58:38
Speaker 1: but there's not the mutuality of obligation to They didn't
58:42
Speaker 1: want the state to have it, that's why it wasn't
58:44
Speaker 1: turned over. That said, the state has an entirely different burden.
58:48
Speaker 1: Their burden is to do the right thing and get
58:50
Speaker 1: a true verdict. We're about to have straight back in
58:53
Speaker 1: the courtroom. I'm hearing that the lunch period, it's almost up.
58:56
Speaker 1: The jury is going to be filing back in their seats.
58:58
Speaker 1: I don't want to miss that. We'll have the Eagle
59:00
Speaker 1: lay out for the conversation, and Emerson's telling us about
59:04
Speaker 1: the conversation. The state wants in and the defense wants
59:07
Speaker 1: to keep it out. I can only imagine what that is. Guys,
59:11
Speaker 1: let's go back in the courtroom. Goodbye friend,