Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / Why Women Over 40 Don’t NEED to Lift Heavy to Fight Osteosarcopenia (Megan Dahlman) | Ep 349

Transcript

Why Women Over 40 Don’t NEED to Lift Heavy to Fight Osteosarcopenia (Megan Dahlman) | Ep 349 · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:01
  Philip Pape: Your doctor just told you that you need to start lifting heavy weights to prevent bone loss, but you can barely do a push-up and haven't been in a gym in years.
• 0:09
  Philip Pape: If that sounds familiar, then today my returning guest, the amazing Megan Dahlman, is going to help you by revealing why this well-meaning medical advice is actually setting women up for failure and injury.
• 0:21
  Philip Pape: You'll learn all about osteosarcopenia and why it's becoming an epidemic among women over 40, as well as surprising truths about weighted vests and other strategies that are often marketed for menopause.
• 0:34
  Philip Pape: Most importantly, you're going to learn the minimum effective dose of resistance training that actually works for beginners, without the intimidation or overwhelm that keeps so many women stuck on the sidelines, even though they absolutely need to strengthen those bones and muscles.
• 0:50
  Philip Pape: Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.
• 1:05
  Philip Pape: I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing a critical health issue that's flying under the radar for millions of women.
• 1:14
  Philip Pape: My guest is returning to the show for her third appearance Megan Dahlman, a certified strength and conditioning specialist with over 17 years of experience coaching women over 40.
• 1:24
  Philip Pape: You might remember her from past episodes where we discussed midlife belly fat and reducing back pain and joint inflammation.
• 1:32
  Philip Pape: I'll throw those links in the show notes.
• 1:33
  Philip Pape: Megan holds a degree in exercise science and specializes in helping women navigate the physical challenges of midlife with sustainable strength training.
• 1:42
  Philip Pape: Pain-free mobility that's her specialty.
• 1:44
  Philip Pape: She has an amazing YouTube channel on these topics and today she's here to discuss osteosarcopenia.
• 1:51
  Philip Pape: Osteosarcopenia a condition of simultaneous bone loss and muscle loss that affects over a quarter of women over 50.
• 1:59
  Philip Pape: You're going to learn why the standard advice of just lift heavy is missing nuance and context and you might be surprised to hear that on this show, especially if you've never trained before how to build a foundation of strength safely and progressively.
• 2:12
  Philip Pape: And, of course, what the science says about the minimum effective dose needed to protect your bones and muscles as you age.
• 2:19
  Philip Pape: Megan, my friend, welcome back to the show.
• 2:23
  Megan Dahlman: Philip, it is so good to be here.
• 2:24
  Megan Dahlman: I love chatting with you.
• 2:26
  Megan Dahlman: I feel like we always get into some phenomenal conversations, whether it's going down rabbit holes, I always feel like we have so much fun chatting together.
• 2:35
  Philip Pape: We do.
• 2:36
  Philip Pape: I mean, that's why we chatted for so long before we even hit record.
• 2:38
  Philip Pape: Today we have a good time and listeners are going to learn a ton today I know I am as well and let's just start right off the bat defining what the heck we're talking about when we say osteosarcopenia.
• 2:50
  Megan Dahlman: Well, this is what is sometimes called the hazardous duo.
• 2:54
  Megan Dahlman: This is the hazardous duo, so it's kind of a newly described syndrome that really highlights the fact that your muscles and bones are a unit.
• 3:04
  Megan Dahlman: They don't work in isolation, they go together.
• 3:08
  Megan Dahlman: You can't have a healthy bone without healthy muscle.
• 3:15
  Megan Dahlman: You can't have a healthy muscle without bone to be there supporting it.
• 3:17
  Megan Dahlman: So it's kind of recognizing that muscles and bones coexist, and so osteosarcopenia is the degradation of that muscle bone unit, and so these are two chronic musculoskeletal conditions that are associated with aging, and they're both accelerated in menopausal women, which is a little nerve-wracking.
• 3:43
  Philip Pape: Yeah, it's nerve-wracking, especially the degree to which that happens due to the differences in the sexes and the hormones, and we should get into that.
• 3:49
  Philip Pape: So this is interesting.
• 3:50
  Philip Pape: Osteosarcopenia do you know off the top of your head?
• 3:52
  Philip Pape: Is this term referred to in the literature, or is this a fun portmanteau that we're using?
• 3:57
  Megan Dahlman: You know, literature is starting to refer to it because if we go back to about 2017, that's where this word starts to pop up and some of them are using it in slight.
• 4:07
  Megan Dahlman: They might say sarco, osteoporosis or osteosarcopenia, but we're starting to see experts and researchers clump them together because the more research they're doing, the more they're realizing like these are so closely tied for both biomechanical and biochemical reasons, that we kind of have to have them both in the conversation always, and so my hope is that we start to see this term be more as a syndrome, because I think, especially with doctors and prescribers and clinicians that are helping people with one thing or the other, whether it's sarcopenia or osteoporosis if we can start to show people like these things are really connected, I think we're going to get better outcomes.
• 4:57
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I totally agree, because you can't.
• 4:58
  Philip Pape: Especially when someone asks about a lifting regimen or how do I support my aging, and we talk about muscles by themselves, you know you get a lot of sort of objections in the head like, well, I'm not trying to build muscles, I'm not trying to improve my physique, I'm not trying to maybe even get stronger Although we should all be trying to get stronger, in my opinion.
• 5:18
  Philip Pape: And then when you say, well, what about bone density?
• 5:20
  Philip Pape: Oh yeah, that's extremely important for me as a woman is bone density.
• 5:24
  Philip Pape: You know, my mother had osteoporosis and everybody was on Bonivo when I was a kid and whatever, and it's like the connecting the two makes sense.
• 5:31
  Philip Pape: And you mentioned both the biomechanics and I think you said hormones or what did?
• 5:36
  Megan Dahlman: you say Biochemical.
• 5:38
  Philip Pape: Right Chemical.
• 5:38
  Philip Pape: So talk about that.
• 5:40
  Philip Pape: Where's the interdependence between those Talk?
• 5:43
  Megan Dahlman: about that?
• 5:44
  Megan Dahlman: Where's the interdependence between those?
• 5:47
  Megan Dahlman: So mechanically, so when a muscle is used, when it's pulling against a bone, so when there's certain mechanical forces applied to the bone above a certain threshold okay, so there is a little bit of a threshold that you got to be above it can actually stimulate more bone synthesis in that area.
• 6:05
  Megan Dahlman: That's why strength training is so magical, and I know we're going to get into that later but strength training pushes and pulls against the bone along the full length of the bone in multiple planes of motion, versus like just impact or vertical jumping type of stuff.
• 6:19
  Megan Dahlman: You're really just creating impact along the bone in one vertical plane.
• 6:23
  Megan Dahlman: So we want these mechanical forces to be pushing, pulling against the bone because all of those contact points or those attachment points on that bone, it will be stimulated to create more bone synthesis.
• 6:38
  Megan Dahlman: So that's the mechanical side of things.
• 6:40
  Megan Dahlman: But then we also have this biochemical side.
• 6:44
  Megan Dahlman: So there's some complex like endocrine mechanisms that are actually signaled when your muscles are loaded.
• 6:54
  Megan Dahlman: So muscle loading induces this cascade of biochemical signals that are necessary for bone growth and remodeling, which is really key because of all you're ever doing is, you know, taking the bone evo or the osteoporosis supplement or whatever it might be, You're not getting the benefit of those muscle loading chemical signals that are necessary for bone growth and remodeling.
• 7:24
  Megan Dahlman: So it's kind of all of these two things combined that creates a really healthy bone muscle unit.
• 7:31
  Philip Pape: That's really good.
• 7:32
  Philip Pape: I'm going to be using that going forward, megan, because we talk about muscle being an endocrine organ and how.
• 7:36
  Philip Pape: I think it's one of the less paid attention to organs.
• 7:40
  Philip Pape: In fact, we know in medical training it's hardly, it's almost an afterthought compared to the other systems like cardiopulmonary systems and whatnot.
• 7:48
  Philip Pape: Right Cardiac health, but not like muscle-centric medicine or health.
• 7:52
  Philip Pape: But what you just said is that there are signals from the muscle that affects bone growth.
• 7:56
  Megan Dahlman: Yeah, and here's the craziest thing too.
• 7:57
  Megan Dahlman: One more study I read said that in individuals with fractures so someone who gets a bone fracture let's say it's not an osteoporotic type of fracture, like they just break a bone somehow Healing times are quicker in those who have more muscle mass.
• 8:14
  Megan Dahlman: This has been repeatedly demonstrated that the presence of healthy muscle tissue is a positive factor for fracture healing.
• 8:23
  Megan Dahlman: Isn't that wild?
• 8:25
  Philip Pape: It is.
• 8:25
  Philip Pape: It is wild.
• 8:27
  Philip Pape: I mean, there are so many of these little surprises about muscle and how they translate to other systems.
• 8:32
  Philip Pape: Even the act of training will send signals to fat cells and help you be more efficient and burn more fat and burn more calories, irrespective of how much muscle you have, even just the act of it.
• 8:44
  Megan Dahlman: Everything is communicating, nothing exists in its own organ.
• 8:47
  Megan Dahlman: Like, your muscles are not a separate organ that you have to do something for your muscles and then your bones are this separate organ that you have to do something specific but, like everything, works together, collaboratively and communicates together all the time.
• 9:01
  Philip Pape: I feel like Eastern medicine has known this for a long time the way they discuss the body.
• 9:05
  Philip Pape: So let's hit on some of the points you mentioned.
• 9:08
  Philip Pape: The threshold for bone synthesis Is that like a percent of your max type threshold?
• 9:13
  Philip Pape: We're talking about loading, or is there some other measurement for that?
• 9:16
  Megan Dahlman: This is hard to nail down.
• 9:17
  Megan Dahlman: This is really.
• 9:18
  Megan Dahlman: It's going to be relative to everybody, to each individual person.
• 9:22
  Megan Dahlman: So really it's above whatever your baseline is of what your body does on a normal basis.
• 9:29
  Megan Dahlman: So when we go into a training session, we're usually doing if we're following a good progressive training program we're usually going to be at or above a certain threshold.
• 9:41
  Megan Dahlman: Maybe not every single workout session, but frequently we're doing something, we're pushing the limits just a little bit, and that's the type of scenario that's going to stimulate significant amount of muscle and bone growth.
• 9:54
  Megan Dahlman: But we know that even training below you know that progress threshold is still valuable.
• 10:01
  Megan Dahlman: So it's not like every time you show up for a workout we're going to have to like be maxing out every single time in order to see positive benefits.
• 10:09
  Megan Dahlman: That's not the case.
• 10:09
  Megan Dahlman: But as long as the training is above basically sedentary levels, you're going to be seeing some great benefits.
• 10:18
  Megan Dahlman: So as far as like this is the threshold, it's too inconclusive to say specifically what that threshold is and it's going to be different for each person in every workout situation too.
• 10:30
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and there's an overlap with the same things that drive your training for muscle growth anyway, in that you get two for one.
• 10:37
  Philip Pape: You get two for one.
• 10:38
  Philip Pape: We did an episode called strength versus hypertrophy you guys should definitely check that out where we talked about some actual numbers that seem to correlate with strength and muscle growth, and the bare minimum seemed to be 35% of your maximum, only because anything lighter than that it's like you could just go all day and it doesn't stress you, whereas 65% starts to affect your central nervous system and your strength.
• 11:02
  Philip Pape: And I'm wondering where the bone development threshold is.
• 11:06
  Philip Pape: And I ask that because, for example, dr Mike Isertil talked about.
• 11:10
  Philip Pape: Somebody said what do you recommend for people over 50?
• 11:12
  Philip Pape: And he's like well, I'd recommend big systemic lifts, fairly heavy, because of the bone density benefits.
• 11:18
  Philip Pape: But we need to get into now, megan, what heavy means.
• 11:21
  Philip Pape: We don't want to scare people away when doctors say just lift heavy.
• 11:24
  Philip Pape: Let's get into that whole hot topic because that's a good segue for this.
• 11:28
  Megan Dahlman: I feel like whenever we hear lift heavy, that lands on two different types of ears.
• 11:34
  Megan Dahlman: It lands on the people who are already lifting heavy and really enjoy it and they're like, yes, I'm already doing it, I've got great bones.
• 11:42
  Megan Dahlman: And then that recommendation lands on the ears of people that are have only ever done cardio or walking or Pilates or yoga and they're scared and they don't know what to do.
• 11:51
  Megan Dahlman: And there's really rarely anybody in between.
• 11:54
  Megan Dahlman: And so when doctors prescribe lifting heavy, yes, okay, so bones and muscles do need some heavy load Like we were talking about that above a certain threshold to be able to stimulate this synthesis, this muscle growth and bone growth kind of simultaneously.
• 12:11
  Megan Dahlman: But we have to consider that your body, like we said, nothing exists in a vacuum.
• 12:18
  Megan Dahlman: Your bones and muscles don't exist in a vacuum, but also there are also, like discs in your spine, tendons and ligaments, the rest of her endocrine system, your inflammatory system that we're also having to contend with.
• 12:32
  Megan Dahlman: So for particularly women in midlife that are already dealing with higher levels of inflammation, that can make your soft tissues, like those tendons and fascia and other soft tissues in your body, more sensitive to inflammation, jumping straight into lifting heavy can be extremely problematic if you don't approach it properly.
• 12:56
  Megan Dahlman: This is where we get a lot of reports of suddenly I have plantar fasciitis or I've got elbow tendonitis out of the blue.
• 13:05
  Megan Dahlman: I wanted to start lifting heavy and I don't know what to do.
• 13:07
  Megan Dahlman: I had a phone call with a client a few weeks ago and she got put she this is the exact scenario.
• 13:14
  Megan Dahlman: She saw her doctor.
• 13:15
  Megan Dahlman: The doctor's like your bone numbers don't look good.
• 13:17
  Megan Dahlman: You need to start lifting heavy.
• 13:19
  Megan Dahlman: So she went home, hopped online, googled heavy lifting program for women.
• 13:23
  Megan Dahlman: Found.
• 13:28
  Megan Dahlman: Hopped online, googled heavy lifting program for women.
• 13:29
  Megan Dahlman: Found a heavy lifting program.
• 13:30
  Megan Dahlman: Had her lifting heavy overhead, she slipped three discs in her neck and dealt with migraines for the next four months.
• 13:43
  Megan Dahlman: No-transcript.
• 13:45
  Megan Dahlman: A lot of these women and men might not have a background in strength training and understanding their body mechanics and understanding body control and how to do a basic body weight squat, let alone put a barbell on their back or have them do a deadlift, getting into a bent over position, which is essentially a deadlift into a hip hinge.
• 14:08
  Megan Dahlman: It's really a technically complicated position if you've never been taught how to do that, and so if someone is gonna go into the gym and walk up to a barbell, they're not gonna know how to do it properly and they'll end up getting hurt.
• 14:22
  Megan Dahlman: And so it's such a nuanced conversation where, yes, our end goal might be let's get you to the point where you are eventually lifting heavy for your bones.
• 14:33
  Megan Dahlman: That doesn't mean that that's where you should start.
• 14:36
  Philip Pape: And you know what?
• 14:37
  Philip Pape: I know we're talking about women here, but men it's the same thing.
• 14:41
  Heather: I will say, and I have personal experience.
• 14:43
  Philip Pape: You talk about form.
• 14:44
  Philip Pape: I consider myself fairly athletic and I was in the physical therapy office the other day and you could see someone who is the opposite of that which I've heard called motor morons.
• 14:52
  Philip Pape: No, no offense to the guy where he was being asked.
• 14:56
  Megan Dahlman: Okay that's what I like to say.
• 14:59
  Megan Dahlman: There's a lack of body awareness and coordination.
• 15:02
  Philip Pape: Clumsy, yeah yeah, you know, athletically clumsy, and you'll give someone an instruction and without the guidance, they, they just can't get it right.
• 15:10
  Philip Pape: Like he was being told to retract a scapula, like hold his elbows locked.
• 15:14
  Megan Dahlman: He's like I don't know what retract means, let alone what my scapula are.
• 15:17
  Philip Pape: Yeah, exactly and even when described the right way, he's like bending his elbows and everything.
• 15:22
  Philip Pape: And so some people, even if they mean well, men or women, women are going to have that issue.
• 15:31
  Philip Pape: And you're right, connective tissue is highly underspoken about with older individuals because they do get more pliable and sensitive.
• 15:35
  Philip Pape: You talk about inflammation.
• 15:36
  Philip Pape: Oh, I did a whole episode just about inflammation related to lifestyle, because that's usually what causes it, not food, you know, not eating seed oils, it's the whole lifestyle of chronic stress and sitting and things like that.
• 15:50
  Philip Pape: I recall myself having shoulder issues and I tried to get back to it too quickly with the heaviness because a little bit of ego, because I had been able to lift heavier, but at that point in my life I really needed to back it down and then progress there.
• 16:03
  Philip Pape: And so what happened is, you know, all that stress on the tendons as I'm pressing, pressing, pressing, boom, I got bursitis.
• 16:09
  Philip Pape: You know, a few weeks later and it's always a lag right, never does necessarily happen the next day.
• 16:13
  Philip Pape: It takes a little while sometimes.
• 16:14
  Philip Pape: So everything you're saying, people should listen up when we say heavy, like I think, yes, heavy relative to what you need to progress, per what Megan said earlier, but not so heavy with bad form, without guidance for your situation that you cause all of these issues.
• 16:32
  Megan Dahlman: So a hundred percent, a hundred percent, ease into it, always build up, like, ask yourself, where am I at right now?
• 16:38
  Megan Dahlman: Like, sure, you might have a long training history.
• 16:42
  Megan Dahlman: In the past.
• 16:43
  Megan Dahlman: I've got a number of women that I work with that they, you know, used to do orange theory for a period of time or that one time that they had that CrossFit gym membership and we're doing that.
• 16:55
  Megan Dahlman: And so 10 years later they're like I really need to get back to doing that and I want to just like hold them by the shoulders and shake them a little bit and say that's not where your body is right now.
• 17:06
  Megan Dahlman: So if you try to go back to that, those are all probably wonderful moves.
• 17:11
  Megan Dahlman: Sure, maybe we could get there, maybe.
• 17:13
  Megan Dahlman: But what does your body need right now?
• 17:17
  Megan Dahlman: Where are you starting at now?
• 17:18
  Megan Dahlman: Where's your conditioning level right now?
• 17:20
  Megan Dahlman: Do we need to work on your technique?
• 17:22
  Megan Dahlman: Do you have shoulder bursitis that we've got to deal with at the moment?
• 17:25
  Megan Dahlman: First, like, where are you at right now?
• 17:28
  Megan Dahlman: And you're, you hit the nail on the head when you said my ego, because that's usually the thing that gets in the in the way of doing the proper program that our body needs at this moment.
• 17:38
  Philip Pape: So get your ego aside and and do like train smart for where your body is right now so that leads to the natural question people, okay, what do I do if it's not CrossFit or 45, which it's not?
• 17:52
  Philip Pape: It's not.
• 17:53
  Philip Pape: I can tell you it's not.
• 17:54
  Philip Pape: That adds its own stress and bad form and everything to speed and everything else.
• 17:59
  Philip Pape: A woman in her forties or fifties, totally new to this.
• 18:02
  Philip Pape: We don't know if she's a motor moron or not.
• 18:04
  Philip Pape: Just kidding.
• 18:07
  Philip Pape: We all are kind of yeah, of course of course she could reach out to you, go check out your YouTube videos and do your program, but I mean principle wise what's a good place to start?
• 18:21
  Megan Dahlman: Body weight only, strength training moves.
• 18:22
  Megan Dahlman: Just start by moving your own body through the basic moves Like learn how to do a squat properly.
• 18:25
  Megan Dahlman: Do and start doing that.
• 18:28
  Megan Dahlman: Get your knees familiar with squatting, your hips familiar, your ankles familiar with squatting.
• 18:33
  Megan Dahlman: Not just one rep, but get them familiar with doing eight of them in a row.
• 18:37
  Megan Dahlman: Do hip hinges.
• 18:39
  Megan Dahlman: That's that deadlift action that we're talking about.
• 18:41
  Megan Dahlman: Get familiar with that movement.
• 18:42
  Megan Dahlman: It's going to start to train your hips, your glutes, your core in a collaborative way.
• 18:48
  Megan Dahlman: Start to do some of these full body movements where you don't need any equipment that might be distracting the moment you try to hold on to something or even put a vest on or have some sort of equipment in the picture like a band, like it's just distracting and it's going to distract you from your own technique.
• 19:10
  Megan Dahlman: I recommend having a mirror nearby or even setting up your phone to record yourself.
• 19:17
  Megan Dahlman: I did a workout with a friend over the weekend.
• 19:19
  Megan Dahlman: They were visiting us and she was like do you want to work out together?
• 19:22
  Megan Dahlman: I'm like when am I ever going to say no to that?
• 19:24
  Megan Dahlman: So we worked out and I, I, I paused her a handful of times.
• 19:29
  Megan Dahlman: She's not a trainer.
• 19:30
  Megan Dahlman: So I paused her a handful of times, just getting into the bent over position.
• 19:33
  Megan Dahlman: I'm like, wait, wait, wait, set the weights down but freeze frame.
• 19:37
  Megan Dahlman: And I took a picture of her and I showed her and in her, like just bent over position, like you're doing a row, her spine was completely rounded and for her it felt correct.
• 19:49
  Megan Dahlman: Like her body feedback was saying this is right.
• 19:52
  Megan Dahlman: And I said, okay, we got to get you more neutral, which actually means like a little bit of curvature at your low back.
• 19:58
  Megan Dahlman: And she's like, oh my gosh, that feels so weird.
• 20:02
  Megan Dahlman: So when you're first starting out, your body might not be giving you the correct feedback.
• 20:08
  Megan Dahlman: So if we're adding a lot of weights and machines and stuff to the picture, it's just a lot that's confusing.
• 20:15
  Megan Dahlman: So start with body weight only strength training moves.
• 20:17
  Megan Dahlman: It's the easiest way to start, like lowest barrier to entry too.
• 20:21
  Philip Pape: And you just you.
• 20:22
  Philip Pape: You explained why, right, which is important because there's a lot of noise out there when it comes to training.
• 20:26
  Philip Pape: You know people will hear me talk about barbells, but they don't see behind the scenes how you know, I want to show somebody how to set their footstands first and then how to sit back down into it and like all the steps you're talking about where.
• 20:39
  Philip Pape: Look at your from the side, look at yourself from 45 degrees and just evaluate each of these things and listen.
• 20:45
  Philip Pape: When I learned to squat I try I watched a million videos, I did a million body weight squats and I still didn't have it quite right until I worked with a coach who said you know what?
• 20:53
  Philip Pape: Here's some subtle things that you still need to fix.
• 20:55
  Philip Pape: It's a skill right, it's a skill, and so the proprioception, I think, is the fancy word for like, your awareness of your body in space.
• 21:01
  Philip Pape: Again, if, whether you are athletic or not, if you've trained yourself through bad habits like a bad golf swing, it could feel fine.
• 21:08
  Philip Pape: And habits like a bad golf swing, it could feel fine.
• 21:12
  Philip Pape: And you know back flexion and all that people just don't quite understand until you explain it to them.
• 21:15
  Philip Pape: So, yeah, these are good.
• 21:15
  Philip Pape: Recording yourself is probably one of the best tips you just said.
• 21:18
  Philip Pape: People don't do it enough.
• 21:19
  Megan Dahlman: People don't do it enough.
• 21:20
  Megan Dahlman: They're in their excuses.
• 21:22
  Megan Dahlman: I just don't like what I look like on me.
• 21:24
  Megan Dahlman: It's like okay, no, you're not showing this to anybody else, you don't have to show it.
• 21:29
  Megan Dahlman: You can delete it immediately after the fact.
• 21:31
  Megan Dahlman: But I don't want you moving incorrectly.
• 21:34
  Megan Dahlman: And one thing I always say is never train bad technique.
• 21:38
  Megan Dahlman: So if you're using bad technique and if you continue to use it over and over again, you're training your body that that's how you're supposed to do it.
• 21:46
  Megan Dahlman: So even if, like, you're pushing really hard or you're doing an exercise and you're getting to the final few reps and you have to contort your body to make it happen, you're like I get that question a lot Like, should I just push through?
• 22:00
  Megan Dahlman: And my answer is never train bad technique.
• 22:03
  Megan Dahlman: You're going to start to teach your body that this is how we do it and this is okay to do it.
• 22:08
  Megan Dahlman: It's always going to put you at risk.
• 22:10
  Megan Dahlman: So the only way to know if you're training bad technique is if you have something that's giving you feedback, whether it's a trainer, that you're working with a mirror or recording yourself on your phone.
• 22:23
  Megan Dahlman: Just do it once or twice and you'll be like oh my gosh, that helped so much A hundred percent.
• 22:29
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and you mentioned how, if you yeah you train your bad habits, that become worse.
• 22:33
  Philip Pape: I would add to that that your leverages in your cross-sectional area on your body, they change based on your weight as well.
• 22:41
  Philip Pape: Your body can be changing too, if you're like eating more, or maybe you're dieting and fat whatever, and when you add more, when you do start adding weight I know we weren't even talking about that, but once you do add weight, that changes the center of gravity and then heavier weight changes it more.
• 22:55
  Philip Pape: So it never ends Like you have to learn how you respond in your different body types and weights.
• 23:02
  Philip Pape: Do you agree with that?
• 23:04
  Megan Dahlman: A hundred percent, and this is might be getting ahead of myself, but I know we were planning on talking about weighted vests too.
• 23:11
  Philip Pape: Oh, I was going to go there next because you mentioned it.
• 23:12
  Philip Pape: So, oh my gosh, so we can go there now if you want.
• 23:15
  Megan Dahlman: but like this is often what happens when you just strap on a weighted vest to your body to do strength training workout.
• 23:21
  Megan Dahlman: I like the idea, but you have to be careful that that's not altering your technique, because your center of gravity just changed.
• 23:29
  Megan Dahlman: It probably moved a little higher on your body and your balance kind of that your ability to control this added weight that's now wrapped around your body it's going to change.
• 23:41
  Megan Dahlman: So just be aware that when you do put on a weighted vest for a workout like a strength training workout, it could be altering your mechanics.
• 23:50
  Megan Dahlman: So be aware, yeah.
• 23:53
  Philip Pape: So?
• 23:53
  Philip Pape: So then you have to put on a weighted calf weights.
• 23:56
  Philip Pape: My daughters and I were playing Jenga yesterday and we got to the highest we ever got.
• 24:02
  Philip Pape: It was like there were like three rows that didn't, that didn't, that weren't down to, just the two blocks.
• 24:07
  Megan Dahlman: Just the two little ones.
• 24:08
  Philip Pape: Yeah, right, and but the very top of the tower gets so wobbly because that center of gravity, so like when you try to take stuff from the top it's like that.
• 24:16
  Philip Pape: So your weighted vest is just shifting that gravity up, moving your gravity up you know, unless you have a big butt or like really developed those legs in parallel or something.
• 24:26
  Heather: So speaking of the weighted, vest then, like there it's.
• 24:28
  Philip Pape: it's a big trend right now.
• 24:30
  Philip Pape: Yep, I've been into rucking for years and I've recommended that to folks, but what's going on with the weighted vest?
• 24:36
  Philip Pape: Like let's talk about it.
• 24:38
  Megan Dahlman: So I feel like, unfortunately, right now the weighted vest trend is is really catching on in the perimenopausal space.
• 24:46
  Megan Dahlman: So the women between the ages of like 40 and 50, it's now this like social media joke like you know, you're 40 when you're walking with a weighted vest and I feel like going on weighted vest walking is being used as a get out of jail free card.
• 25:00
  Megan Dahlman: If I just walk with a vest, I'm doing what I need to for my bones and I don't need to do any strength training.
• 25:06
  Megan Dahlman: Most studies looking at the effectiveness of walking with a weighted vest are not very conclusive studies and in fact they're usually comparing one group who didn't exercise at all with another group that walked with a weighted vest.
• 25:24
  Megan Dahlman: Obviously, the group that walked with a weighted vest saw some improvements in their bone density.
• 25:30
  Megan Dahlman: There's one interesting study that I liked a lot that showed a no walking group, a walking group, walking with a weighted vest.
• 25:40
  Megan Dahlman: I'm like, okay, now we've got a good study that actually compares things properly.
• 25:43
  Megan Dahlman: There was no difference in bone density between the non-weighted vest and the weighted vest group.
• 25:49
  Philip Pape: The only difference was improved balance interesting, and is that that's because the load was just not enough?
• 25:56
  Megan Dahlman: the load was higher on their body.
• 25:58
  Megan Dahlman: So now they had this like new proprioception thing that they had to deal with, but when it came to bone density, it didn't really it's too.
• 26:08
  Megan Dahlman: It's no, if you're rucking up hills, you know that's.
• 26:12
  Megan Dahlman: That's really challenging.
• 26:14
  Megan Dahlman: I mean, what is a classic rec?
• 26:15
  Megan Dahlman: That's 40 pounds, right.
• 26:17
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I mean 25 to 50 is usually what I recommend yeah, yeah.
• 26:21
  Megan Dahlman: So the the thing is like all these studies showed walking weighted vests, but then when you compare that to what just strength training does for your bones, it pales in comparison.
• 26:32
  Megan Dahlman: Like strength training, like it blows them all out of the water.
• 26:37
  Megan Dahlman: Nothing can even come close.
• 26:39
  Megan Dahlman: The wet walking with a weighted vest does not even come close, and so that's the beef I have with walking with a weighted vest.
• 26:49
  Megan Dahlman: If that's all you're doing, you're not doing your bones as great of a favor as you think you are.
• 26:54
  Megan Dahlman: If it means that it's kind of a fun, newfangled thing that's getting you active Now you previously had been sedentary, but now it's motivating and fun newfangled thing that's getting you active.
• 27:02
  Megan Dahlman: Now you previously had been sedentary, but now it's motivating, and there's this placebo effect of like I think it's doing something good and that's compelling you to exercise more.
• 27:10
  Megan Dahlman: I am all here for that.
• 27:12
  Megan Dahlman: But when it comes to bone density because that's what a lot of them feel like that's what we're doing this for it's not doing as much as you think.
• 27:21
  Megan Dahlman: Like very marginal strength training is going to do way more.
• 27:26
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and then the way to vest to me, if you compare it to rucking, may provide a tiny boost in.
• 27:32
  Philip Pape: You know how many calories you burn per mile, or something like that.
• 27:34
  Philip Pape: Very small, very little.
• 27:36
  Philip Pape: And then it's associated it's used to be associated with, like military or CrossFit style workouts where you just toss that on and run up hills and stuff and that's cool, it's all fun and games.
• 27:45
  Philip Pape: But, yeah, strength training.
• 27:46
  Philip Pape: So let's talk about strength training then.
• 27:48
  Philip Pape: Yeah, the next level.
• 27:49
  Philip Pape: So you've got your movement patterns safe and neutral.
• 27:53
  Philip Pape: Back, you're learning how to use your ankles, hips, your joints, you know, getting that blood flow which feels great when you start lifting.
• 27:59
  Philip Pape: It's just so good.
• 28:00
  Philip Pape: Guys, if you haven't lifted, what are you waiting for?
• 28:02
  Philip Pape: This is wits and weights.
• 28:03
  Philip Pape: This is Megan Dolan.
• 28:10
  Philip Pape: You've got to be lifting.
• 28:11
  Philip Pape: And so what does the research or your experience tell us about minimum effective dose once you start loading and progressing?
• 28:14
  Philip Pape: And that could be either intensity and load, or we could be talking volume or frequency or all of those.
• 28:20
  Megan Dahlman: Sure.
• 28:20
  Megan Dahlman: So first of all, the most important factor is not necessarily dosage but consistency.
• 28:25
  Megan Dahlman: So the positive impacts on your bone and muscle mass really really are going to come down to how consistent are you with this thing?
• 28:34
  Megan Dahlman: Because you could have one really like dialed workout per month.
• 28:39
  Megan Dahlman: But we know, I mean like that's an anecdotal thing, but that's where a lot of people go Like if I'm going to show up for a workout, it's got to like all of my numbers have to be spot on and perfect.
• 28:52
  Megan Dahlman: And then for the perfectionist listening they're like well, if I can't do that, then I'm not going to do anything at all, and so their consistency with training is nowhere where it should be.
• 29:03
  Megan Dahlman: So the most important factor first is just your consistency.
• 29:08
  Megan Dahlman: But it is generally agreed that a minimum of two 30-minute resistance training sessions per week is ideal.
• 29:17
  Megan Dahlman: So we can see some benefits, some progress, some benefits with two 30-minute strength training sessions per week and muscle change.
• 29:30
  Megan Dahlman: So stimulation on the muscles, so some adaptations for the muscles can be seen in a wide range of repetition ranges.
• 29:38
  Megan Dahlman: So forever we were always saying like you gotta like don't do 20 rep things.
• 29:44
  Megan Dahlman: You know, make sure that you're staying in the six to eight rep or six to 12.
• 29:48
  Megan Dahlman: But we do see some adaptations in those higher rep ranges too.
• 29:53
  Megan Dahlman: Now are they the adaptations that we want?
• 29:55
  Megan Dahlman: You know, we're getting some more endurance capacity in those muscles, which is really great for those muscles.
• 30:01
  Megan Dahlman: But if we're wanting to really see some muscle growth, like that hypertrophy, usually the six to 12 repetition range is great, which means that if six is the number you're aiming for, when you get to five it should feel tough and that number six should feel really challenging.
• 30:18
  Megan Dahlman: But with good technique right, you might only have one rep left in the tank, maybe two with good technique.
• 30:26
  Megan Dahlman: So that's kind of the range that we're looking for.
• 30:28
  Megan Dahlman: We can see improvements in as little as one set with an exercise.
• 30:34
  Megan Dahlman: Two to three sets is great, but the difference between so two sets of an exercise is significantly better than one set.
• 30:44
  Megan Dahlman: So I'm saying like backwards one set is good.
• 30:46
  Megan Dahlman: We see change, two sets even better.
• 30:49
  Megan Dahlman: The difference between two and three sets is pretty minimal.
• 30:53
  Megan Dahlman: We do still see some changes, but it's not as exponential as the difference between one and two sets, difference between zero and one sets.
• 31:05
  Philip Pape: I think we know the difference, infinite difference, of anything yeah.
• 31:08
  Megan Dahlman: Infinite difference.
• 31:09
  Megan Dahlman: And then it really comes down to the greatest changes once again, our consistency, but moving every day, somehow.
• 31:17
  Megan Dahlman: So even those people that are strength training, lifting weights or doing some form of strength training, twice a week, maybe three times a week, those other days that you're not lifting weights, stay moving.
• 31:29
  Megan Dahlman: Stay working your body.
• 31:32
  Megan Dahlman: It doesn't need to be a full workout.
• 31:34
  Megan Dahlman: It could be going for a walk, could be doing some mobility work, some of that supplementary stuff, which I highly recommend, but stay moving every day.
• 31:43
  Megan Dahlman: And that's what's going to that consistency over time, with these little bouts of higher resistance.
• 31:51
  Megan Dahlman: That's where we're going to see some great impact.
• 31:53
  Megan Dahlman: Perfect.
• 31:54
  Philip Pape: So I love everything you said because it's accessible and it's a place that anyone can start and go from zero to zero to hero, go up to a really great level of performance, and I often recommend at least two set two sessions as well for older folks generally I hate to say older, but you know, the older we get just because of recoverability and your schedules and practicality and all that and then you get into it right, and then you're going three, maybe four days a week.
• 32:20
  Megan Dahlman: You get into it right, and then you're going three, maybe four days a week to get into it.
• 32:23
  Megan Dahlman: I'm usually at three per week.
• 32:24
  Megan Dahlman: It feels good for me.
• 32:25
  Megan Dahlman: I like three Usually.
• 32:26
  Megan Dahlman: My third one might not be quite as heavy and might be a little bit more of the body weight strength training stuff, but for me personally, I lift at least two days a week, usually three, and that feels really good to me.
• 32:42
  Megan Dahlman: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:43
  Philip Pape: Yeah, it has to, and it's got to work with your sleep schedule and how long your sessions can be and if you're commuting to the gym and all that stuff Exactly.
• 32:51
  Philip Pape: So let's, let's drill down a little bit deeper, because we talked about maybe nerding out on stuff and if Phil ever put you on the spot cause I know there's a lot of science out there that neither of us probably know all of it I want to talk about that.
• 33:02
  Philip Pape: I had a keyword in here from when I was researching for the show osteogenic, which is like the level at which bone adaptation occurs.
• 33:08
  Philip Pape: It's osteogenic, Cool word and there were three things that came up and I want to understand your points on it and whether we're leaving something on the table or not.
• 33:17
  Philip Pape: The first one is load, which we already slightly touched on.
• 33:21
  Philip Pape: But I have seen a lot of research that says, like, real adaptation occurs at a fairly high level of your max, like 85%, you know, like even beyond just the strength threshold, Like what are your thoughts on that?
• 33:32
  Philip Pape: Should someone at some point think about getting into that regime or is it more of a one percenter?
• 33:38
  Megan Dahlman: If someone enjoys that.
• 33:40
  Megan Dahlman: I think that a lot of people that actually are, you know, have gotten an osteopenia diagnosis.
• 33:49
  Megan Dahlman: They're typically midlife or older, where their health up to that point, you know, they hadn't been lifting weights.
• 33:57
  Megan Dahlman: So that's why they're here, that's why they're in this situation.
• 34:01
  Megan Dahlman: The idea of lifting at such a high percentage of max feels really scary and you know they might never want to try to do that.
• 34:09
  Megan Dahlman: So what's interesting is I've had a handful of clients who've gone through my year program and started out with certain bone density numbers that were pretty much borderline osteoporosis, like right in those beginning numbers of osteoporosis, and that was really scary for them.
• 34:27
  Megan Dahlman: And these are women in their like early fifties just going through my programs, which we don't lift really really I always encourage them to push themselves, but everyone's level of what they push themselves is a little bit different.
• 34:41
  Megan Dahlman: I don't give them a set number or anything.
• 34:44
  Megan Dahlman: It's just like we're going to do eight reps.
• 34:45
  Megan Dahlman: Make it hard, like let's go a little harder than what you did last week.
• 34:49
  Megan Dahlman: After a year pretty much every one of the women that has been in my programs has seen significant improvements in their bone density and many of them have been able to completely reverse their diagnosis and they're no longer even considered osteopenia.
• 35:04
  Megan Dahlman: So that's a really good, like just example of you don't have to.
• 35:11
  Megan Dahlman: You can still see benefits in your bones, like dramatic benefits in your bones.
• 35:17
  Megan Dahlman: You know, with all else, other factors your nutrition has improved, your stress loads have improved, like there's so many other things at play here.
• 35:25
  Megan Dahlman: But you don't have to if you don't want to.
• 35:29
  Megan Dahlman: And lifting heavy can look very different.
• 35:32
  Megan Dahlman: It doesn't have to look like barbells, it can look like dumbbells, it can look like things you machines, it can look like kettlebells and whatever you have access to.
• 35:42
  Megan Dahlman: So it's such a nuanced conversation.
• 35:45
  Megan Dahlman: So I like lifting heavy like a super heavy loads, but I know that a lot of people just don't like doing that.
• 35:52
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and I wanted to challenge it a little bit for you to give that answer, because there there's there's always carve outs and nuance, and I know there's research on I'll call it frailty, and people don't want to think of themselves as frail, but if you're on the border of osteoporosis, you have a sense of frailty in your body.
• 36:06
  Philip Pape: It doesn't mean you are frail or that you can't go after it and like reclaim that power, right, yes, and where you could go at a much lower load and get, as long as you're using progressive overload.
• 36:15
  Philip Pape: So then that leads to the second piece of this, which is explosiveness, or velocity, or like force over time type training, or what do they call strain rate.
• 36:24
  Philip Pape: The strain rate, I think, is what it's called where you have it could be jumping and bounding in there, but it could just as well being when you're doing the lift on the concentric, you explode, which we want to do anyway for muscle and strength.
• 36:35
  Philip Pape: Yeah, do you?
• 36:35
  Philip Pape: Do you focus on that a lot or does it just come along for the ride?
• 36:39
  Megan Dahlman: Yeah, I put it in a category of power development and so really any time that you're contracting at a faster pace than just your regular rhythm.
• 36:49
  Megan Dahlman: This is so important for injury prevention, especially for those that are getting older and might be frail.
• 36:55
  Megan Dahlman: So we do have evidence that impact work is very valuable for bone density.
• 37:03
  Megan Dahlman: I love doing the type of impact work in a strength training setting or in a training setting, versus going out and going for like a three mile run.
• 37:13
  Megan Dahlman: Yes, that's impact, but that's a lot of repetitive in the same motion, same plane of motion.
• 37:18
  Megan Dahlman: It can be.
• 37:19
  Megan Dahlman: It can sometimes create a lot of wear and tear on already damaged joints and exacerbate compensation patterns that someone might have.
• 37:27
  Megan Dahlman: So doing the highly repetitive like impact work is not something I'm a huge fan of for someone who has osteoporosis and wants to improve it, but incorporating some of that higher speed power work, I love it for multiple reasons.
• 37:44
  Megan Dahlman: However, we can only do it if you already have a really thick foundation of strength, so I want to know that your mechanics of doing a squat are perfect before we ever do a squat jump or a box jump Like you got it.
• 37:58
  Megan Dahlman: I'm not going to make you do a squat jump if you can't even do a proper squat, like that's square one, you know, or bounding.
• 38:06
  Philip Pape: It's like the Olympic lifts and CrossFit people jump right into that.
• 38:12
  Heather: Hello, my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace.
• 38:16
  Heather: Just six days after I started this cut, my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana, turkey.
• 38:23
  Heather: As I tried to process the stress and trauma, my first instinct was to say, oh, you've been through something hard, this is not a good time.
• 38:31
  Heather: But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day, and not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body, but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months.
• 38:52
  Heather: Here I am on the other side of eight weeks, got my kids through all the things that we have been through, and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did, and I got a new PR on my bench press.
• 39:02
  Heather: I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish, but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful.
• 39:10
  Heather: Thank you, philip.
• 39:12
  Megan Dahlman: Everything is a progression.
• 39:13
  Megan Dahlman: So thinking like progressive overload, but also progressive overload with the exercise programming themselves, and this is where we can nerd out on like program design.
• 39:24
  Megan Dahlman: But if you're going to design and have a good program, you're going to know that this exercise today, next month, is going to progress into this variation of it, which is going to progress into that variation of it Really great example I love to use is I always teach the basic squat first, and then we progress to a staggered squat where one foot is just slightly more forward than normal and we get good at that, which is kind of this offset stance, and then we progress to a split squat.
• 39:55
  Megan Dahlman: So now we're starting to look more like a lunge.
• 39:58
  Megan Dahlman: We're not stepping yet.
• 40:00
  Megan Dahlman: You're not stepping in and out, your feet are still planted, but now there's more balance.
• 40:04
  Megan Dahlman: Your hips have to work differently, your core has to work, and then we add some stepping with it, like a reverse lunge is usually the easiest.
• 40:11
  Megan Dahlman: Then we do a walking lunge, then we do a lunge in place and then maybe we'll try a lunge jump at the very end Awesome.
• 40:18
  Megan Dahlman: And then maybe we'll try a lunge jump at the very end, you know.
• 40:21
  Megan Dahlman: So like that's kind of how you would properly progress up to those higher power movements.
• 40:28
  Megan Dahlman: Now there's some movements that are less risky.
• 40:31
  Megan Dahlman: You know a lot of medicine ball work is not as risky like a medicine ball slam, like just slamming that down no-transcript.
• 40:45
  Megan Dahlman: And medicine ball is beautiful for that, for a lot of that power work, that for older individuals it can be fun and it's not as dangerous.
• 40:54
  Megan Dahlman: But definitely something like Olympic lifting, box jumping, hurdle hopping, great for bones.
• 41:00
  Megan Dahlman: But let's build up to it properly.
• 41:02
  Philip Pape: For sure.
• 41:03
  Philip Pape: But you mentioned reverse lunge.
• 41:04
  Philip Pape: I actually did some this morning the safety squat bar, and it had been a long time and it's your body gets detrained from some of these movements where you're like, okay, I can't go as heavy as I did last time, let me just take it easy, because those quads are burning.
• 41:17
  Philip Pape: Yeah, one thing that came to mind when you're talking about programming you talked about programming.
• 41:21
  Philip Pape: One thing I've been doing a lot lately and telling people about is top set back offset, which is, you know, the top set is like heavier, maybe a lower rep range, like four to six or six to eight, and then you drop the weight by like 10 to 20% and then your second set is eight to 12 or 12 to 15 to kind of get both the strength and the hypertrophy and limit it to two sets.
• 41:40
  Philip Pape: So your sessions are kind of short and you really train hard because you're only doing two.
• 41:44
  Philip Pape: So I'm tying it to everything you said about like what's optimum and practical at the same time.
• 41:48
  Philip Pape: Is two sets enough?
• 41:50
  Philip Pape: Is three days enough?
• 41:50
  Philip Pape: How can you get the rep ranges in, but also maybe test the waters with heavy, all of that?
• 41:55
  Philip Pape: So what's like some of your favorite programming schemes that are somebody listening, even if they are newer, they don't get too overwhelmed.
• 42:02
  Philip Pape: They're like, okay, that's interesting I.
• 42:04
  Megan Dahlman: One of my favorite is circuits.
• 42:06
  Megan Dahlman: So I almost love programming in circuits, whether it's a superset, so you just do two exercises at a time.
• 42:12
  Megan Dahlman: I love that for like just mental focus.
• 42:16
  Megan Dahlman: A superset, I like to call them couplets, so two exercises at a time where you just kind of go back and forth.
• 42:22
  Megan Dahlman: Now you could do like two exercises that compliment each other like a push and a pull, or you could really overload and do two pushing style movements at the same, you know, like a chest press and a fly.
• 42:33
  Megan Dahlman: That's intense.
• 42:35
  Megan Dahlman: So that's one programming thing I really like to do.
• 42:39
  Megan Dahlman: I love descending reps.
• 42:41
  Megan Dahlman: I use that a lot.
• 42:43
  Megan Dahlman: So instead of changing the load, we keep the load the same, but we do we knock off like a rep each set through.
• 42:51
  Megan Dahlman: That's one of my favorites.
• 42:53
  Megan Dahlman: Another thing to get that I love to program in a lot is just doing time set, so focusing a little bit more on just the stamina of a movement.
• 43:04
  Megan Dahlman: You'll use an AMRAP, a little bit AMRAP, so we could do it two different ways.
• 43:08
  Megan Dahlman: Either Amrap style, so as many reps as possible, like in a 30 second period of time.
• 43:15
  Megan Dahlman: Another thing I like to do is as many rounds as possible in like five minutes.
• 43:20
  Megan Dahlman: So we'll put five minutes on the clock.
• 43:21
  Megan Dahlman: I'm going to give you five exercises.
• 43:23
  Megan Dahlman: You've got five reps of each thing.
• 43:24
  Megan Dahlman: How many rounds in five minutes can you do?
• 43:28
  Megan Dahlman: So all of what I love about all of these everything, everything is going to work.
• 43:32
  Megan Dahlman: It's all going to work, it's all.
• 43:33
  Megan Dahlman: It's all going to create good stimulus on your body.
• 43:38
  Megan Dahlman: The more variety, the better, but you don't want so much variety that you can't focus and you're not able to see progress.
• 43:45
  Megan Dahlman: So I take things in like in a mezzo cycle.
• 43:49
  Megan Dahlman: So four week stints of time, usually four to six weeks, is a good mezzo cycle.
• 43:53
  Megan Dahlman: So within that period of time, with a singular workout, with one workout like a workout, a like your Monday workout of the week, let's stick with one style for that workout.
• 44:03
  Megan Dahlman: So this workout all cycle.
• 44:05
  Megan Dahlman: We're going to do descending reps and or we'll do the AMRAP thing for this particular workout for the whole month and then next month we might switch it up, we might.
• 44:16
  Megan Dahlman: So so you keep things, you keep variety, but not so much variety that it's random all the time and you can't see progress.
• 44:24
  Megan Dahlman: And I think that's where like CrossFit lands in, where you show up and you have a totally different workout of the day.
• 44:36
  Megan Dahlman: I'm always trying to PR or even orange theory.
• 44:38
  Megan Dahlman: You show up, you have a different trainer, you're always doing these random classes.
• 44:40
  Megan Dahlman: There's no way to have a clear forward progress.
• 44:44
  Megan Dahlman: And when you have that forward movement, forward progress, you you can give yourself a light week.
• 44:50
  Megan Dahlman: You know week one can be a light week and then you start building, building, and then you have your final week where that's like all of your effort, and then you have that deload week to follow that.
• 45:00
  Megan Dahlman: So it's so much happier and safer on your body and it just keeps it fun so much.
• 45:08
  Philip Pape: Yes, yes, you get bored, otherwise you get bored.
• 45:11
  Heather: Not getting bored.
• 45:11
  Megan Dahlman: This goes back to what we said in the beginning of like, the most important thing is just consistency.
• 45:15
  Megan Dahlman: So if we can keep your workouts like really fun and like interesting and unusual, I have some clients that I work with where they're like just make it different a lot and I'm like well, I'll make it different every four weeks, but it'll be fun styles, so yeah.
• 45:35
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 45:36
  Philip Pape: Like I just ran an eight week block and now I'm running a new one where the fun comes within the week.
• 45:42
  Philip Pape: Right, like within the session and within the week you can make it fun, mix it up.
• 45:46
  Philip Pape: I don't want to.
• 45:46
  Philip Pape: I don't want you to ever think the next day you look at your training plan and say, ah, that's the day that we got on.
• 45:51
  Philip Pape: Like, you know, like I mean, we all have movements.
• 45:53
  Philip Pape: We are not huge fans of it, might, maybe, but then it has like three other things we really love, you know, and you're like, okay, I can get through this.
• 46:00
  Philip Pape: You also mentioned the macro level.
• 46:03
  Philip Pape: We want the variety at the micro level.
• 46:04
  Philip Pape: We want the what, the consistency, so you can progress, which is its own fun, challenging thing.
• 46:09
  Philip Pape: Right, because then you go next Monday.
• 46:10
  Philip Pape: You're like, okay, I just did this.
• 46:12
  Philip Pape: My movement patterns are like learning.
• 46:14
  Philip Pape: You know my body's learning this.
• 46:16
  Philip Pape: Now I can probably push a little harder and really figure that out.
• 46:20
  Philip Pape: The superset thing is cool because there's one or two things I've been doing lately.
• 46:25
  Philip Pape: Megan, I wanted to jump spring off of that.
• 46:26
  Philip Pape: One is adding a third set that is just an AMRAP, but only like 15, 10 seconds after the second set ended.
• 46:35
  Philip Pape: So you do your first set.
• 46:36
  Philip Pape: Take your two, three and four minute rest.
• 46:38
  Philip Pape: You do your second set.
• 46:40
  Philip Pape: I'm sorry this is you could do this with supersets or not, but let's say you're doing a superset and you're doing bicep curls and tricep press downs.
• 46:48
  Philip Pape: You do your bicep curls, then you do bicep, then you do bicep, then your tricep.
• 46:52
  Philip Pape: After that second set of triceps, 10 seconds later you do another, but an AMRAP.
• 46:57
  Heather: And it's like a way to test that you're actually pushing to failure.
• 47:00
  Philip Pape: Yeah, with the same one.
• 47:01
  Philip Pape: Just with the second one to check yourself of whether you're really training hard.
• 47:08
  Megan Dahlman: I like that.
• 47:09
  Megan Dahlman: I mean, I wouldn't do that all the time.
• 47:12
  Philip Pape: Like.
• 47:13
  Megan Dahlman: I would not put that on like this is how I always do this particular workout.
• 47:16
  Megan Dahlman: I mean that's definitely gonna max you, but I think that's a unique way to really test and I think in my own workouts I do that sometimes without saying like calling it anything.
• 47:29
  Philip Pape: Like.
• 47:29
  Megan Dahlman: I'll know it's my final set.
• 47:31
  Megan Dahlman: I'll be like I've got more in the tank, so I'll just like keep going until I feel like I've maxed out, because I know like I'm not doing this exercise again today.
• 47:39
  Megan Dahlman: I feel like I've got some more.
• 47:40
  Megan Dahlman: I really want to push it, and so it probably is like an AMRAP there at the end where you're just seeing how much of or just maxing out in one way or another.
• 47:49
  Megan Dahlman: So, yeah, Another thing that I like to add onto the end of workouts for a metabolic boost or metabolic finishers.
• 47:59
  Megan Dahlman: I don't know if you've ever used these, but this is great for like a conditioning effect on the end of like a strength training workout, just like five minutes max, usually body weight stuff.
• 48:09
  Megan Dahlman: Sometimes it's fun to do like a strength circuit, but it's usually like a lighter load but high intensity boost, and it can be like a timed circuit, you know Tabata style thing, an AMRAP thing, like three minutes on the clock.
• 48:26
  Megan Dahlman: How many of these can you do in three minutes?
• 48:27
  Megan Dahlman: And those are kind of I use the word fun in quotes but you walk away from that on the end of your workout and you're like, Holy moly, that just pushed me over the edge.
• 48:43
  Megan Dahlman: And the metabolic finishers.
• 48:45
  Megan Dahlman: Those are fun.
• 48:46
  Philip Pape: Yeah.
• 48:47
  Megan Dahlman: More advanced athletes that I work with.
• 48:49
  Philip Pape: Yeah, it's just those.
• 48:50
  Philip Pape: You got to kind of earn your your right to start doing those right, like I think of BFR in that category too, like blood flow restriction training in that same category.
• 48:58
  Philip Pape: What about, I guess, tied back to the bone density thing, how beneficial are the multi-joint exercises versus isolation, specifically for bone density, like, what is the advantage you're getting?
• 49:11
  Philip Pape: Other than I could see load, because we can live more with your whole body and maybe that's the thing, but there's also central nervous system activity going on that's not happening with like a bicep curl.
• 49:21
  Philip Pape: What are your thoughts on that?
• 49:23
  Megan Dahlman: I see the benefit of single joint movements for, like total strength.
• 49:30
  Megan Dahlman: You know, if that's what you're aiming for is to just like build total, pure strength for this muscle group.
• 49:38
  Megan Dahlman: For those that are more concerned about their bones, like if that's top of mind, we part of that conversation is also functionality and and how your body functions and moves, your mobility, and so multi-joint movements are always going to fit into that conversation best.
• 49:55
  Megan Dahlman: So the majority of the people that I work with are everyday individuals that want to feel and move better in everyday life.
• 50:02
  Megan Dahlman: They don't necessarily want absolute max strength, they want to be strong for daily life and also have really strong bones and muscles.
• 50:12
  Megan Dahlman: So in that scenario then, the multi-joint movements are always going to make the most sense.
• 50:18
  Megan Dahlman: So I primarily only program those in because they're just so functional, so effective and they apply to their daily life.
• 50:28
  Megan Dahlman: Every so often we'll do like a single, you know, just like a chest press which is still multi-joint, by the way, a chest press but it feels like a singular focus that mentally, is really exciting to feel yourself be really strong with, with a movement that's stable.
• 50:46
  Megan Dahlman: You're working kind of one movement pattern at once.
• 50:49
  Megan Dahlman: You can always do the strongest thing with that and that feels really good to explore your absolute strength.
• 50:55
  Megan Dahlman: But as far as overall functionality, the multi-joint stuff is going to be the best.
• 51:00
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I would agree.
• 51:01
  Philip Pape: I think it checks the box with almost any goal as the foundation.
• 51:05
  Philip Pape: To be honest, that's the nice thing about our discussion here is, if you're listening, everything Megan talked about you should be doing for all the goals.
• 51:12
  Philip Pape: I'll be honest, Like, even if you want to build muscle and physique, you're going to have to have that as your foundation.
• 51:17
  Philip Pape: So it's great, because it doesn't mean you have to go do 10 sports and spend 80 hours in the gym, you know.
• 51:23
  Philip Pape: So, speaking of the gym, what one?
• 51:25
  Philip Pape: One other question I did want to make sure to come away with is somebody's listening, especially women equipment and access and going to the gym and that whole environment.
• 51:37
  Philip Pape: That could probably be its own topic.
• 51:38
  Philip Pape: But, like, do you have some you know my top three tips for, like, actually going to the gym?
• 51:41
  Philip Pape: Like what, what should they be trying to do?
• 51:44
  Megan Dahlman: at the gym or like.
• 51:45
  Philip Pape: If they are not, if they haven't started yet.
• 51:47
  Philip Pape: Should they be like, would you recommend finding a local gym first, or a home gym, or talk reaching out to you?
• 51:53
  Philip Pape: You know, obviously they should reach out to you.
• 51:55
  Megan Dahlman: Yeah, I mean everything I put together, I make so that you can do it in your bedroom if you need to.
• 52:01
  Megan Dahlman: So, when it comes to training and getting into a routine, the lowest barrier to entry the better.
• 52:07
  Megan Dahlman: So if trying to find a gym, the lowest barrier to entry the better.
• 52:11
  Megan Dahlman: So if trying to find a gym, signing up for a membership, walking into an unfamiliar place, those are all huge barriers that might prevent you from just starting.
• 52:20
  Megan Dahlman: We need to just get you started and get the ball rolling.
• 52:22
  Megan Dahlman: So most of the time I say just start at home, in your living room, in your bedroom.
• 52:28
  Megan Dahlman: I have people that work out in their laundry room sometimes because it's the only place that they don't get bugged by their family.
• 52:34
  Megan Dahlman: No one wants to come to the laundry room.
• 52:35
  Megan Dahlman: So just start where you are, even your location, and don't feel like it needs to be this huge production.
• 52:46
  Megan Dahlman: Some people really do enjoy and are motivated by the environment of going to a gym and for certain seasons of life that can be really great.
• 52:55
  Megan Dahlman: You got a gym, you walk in, you're not going to do anything else there, you're not going to get distracted, you're going to get in, get your workout done and move on with your day, whereas at home sometimes you can put it off because you've got this task and this task.
• 53:08
  Megan Dahlman: So in those situations, if you lack focus and you keep losing time to get it done at home, then carving out time and having a gym set up or a gym to go to can help with your focus.
• 53:23
  Megan Dahlman: But for most people I feel like just getting to the gym is a huge barrier.
• 53:27
  Megan Dahlman: So you can do full, highly effective workouts everything we talked about at home without any equipment to start with.
• 53:35
  Megan Dahlman: So just get started.
• 53:37
  Philip Pape: And it saves time, and you mentioned carving out time, so that would be.
• 53:40
  Philip Pape: The last barrier I can think of is, even at home, I've got a packed schedule, I'm a mom, I'm overwhelmed, whatever, and I get this question all the time too.
• 53:48
  Philip Pape: But I'm always curious what, like, your top tip is for that.
• 53:52
  Megan Dahlman: You know psychological barriers like they're in our mind, and carving out time usually means like.
• 54:02
  Megan Dahlman: It means that the workout that you're wanting to do you're maybe either dreading or it's unfamiliar and you have this impression that it's going to take you a really long time to learn it and you don't want to learn it.
• 54:17
  Megan Dahlman: Think of that dreaded feeling of learning a new board game.
• 54:23
  Philip Pape: You have to read the instructions.
• 54:27
  Megan Dahlman: It's really fun, it's really good, it won't take that long to learn.
• 54:29
  Megan Dahlman: You're like I just want to do the other game that I already know how to do.
• 54:31
  Megan Dahlman: I don't want to waste my time learning this.
• 54:34
  Megan Dahlman: The same thing happens with our workouts.
• 54:36
  Megan Dahlman: So usually, if a workout just has a few movements that are familiar to you, you don't feel nervous about them.
• 54:46
  Megan Dahlman: You're not afraid that you're going to mess up or hurt yourself.
• 54:49
  Megan Dahlman: You don't feel nervous about them.
• 54:51
  Megan Dahlman: You're not afraid that you're going to mess up or hurt yourself.
• 54:53
  Megan Dahlman: Suddenly, you have more time in your schedule to do a workout like that because you're the excuses that you thought were the excuses weren't actually the real excuses.
• 54:59
  Megan Dahlman: So usually the solution is to simplify the routine that you're trying to commit to.
• 55:06
  Megan Dahlman: If you continue to not have time to do the workout, your routine's probably too complicated.
• 55:12
  Megan Dahlman: It's probably overwhelming.
• 55:14
  Megan Dahlman: You and you're right, you don't have time to do such an overwhelming routine.
• 55:18
  Megan Dahlman: So just simplify it.
• 55:20
  Megan Dahlman: Make it just two exercises to start with and build from there.
• 55:25
  Philip Pape: And so let's segue into our last piece here, our last piece here.
• 55:29
  Philip Pape: With that, you've got a lot of great content.
• 55:32
  Philip Pape: We have a YouTube channel we're going to link in the show notes.
• 55:34
  Philip Pape: Is this something where you would recommend a specific video?
• 55:37
  Philip Pape: We can throw it in where you're going to learn your squat at home tonight After you listen to this podcast.
• 55:42
  Philip Pape: You could do it in your living room, throw it on the TV.
• 55:45
  Philip Pape: It'll take you 10, 15 minutes and that's it.
• 55:48
  Philip Pape: That's how you get started.
• 55:49
  Philip Pape: What do you think?
• 55:50
  Megan Dahlman: Totally All of the videos that I post on YouTube are 15 minutes or less there we go.
• 55:54
  Megan Dahlman: I've got some great follow along workouts that are, you know, either mobility focused If you feel like I could just use a stretch or strength training, body weight focused.
• 56:06
  Megan Dahlman: I try to post on my YouTube channel something that you can do in your living room if you don't have any equipment, and so it's a really great, fantastic place to start.
• 56:15
  Megan Dahlman: And then if someone, if someone's really wanting to start a follow along routine that progresses and isn't just these like haphazard workouts here and there, but actually is a progressive program and routine, my jumpstart 30 program is a really excellent place for it to start.
• 56:32
  Megan Dahlman: The first day is like eight minutes long, doesn't require any equipment and we focus so much on that technique.
• 56:38
  Megan Dahlman: And by month three so if they keep moving through the courses in my series, by the third course we're starting to lift weights.
• 56:46
  Megan Dahlman: So for anybody listening, that's like I know I need to lift weights.
• 56:48
  Megan Dahlman: I don't know anybody listening that's like I know I need to lift weights.
• 56:51
  Megan Dahlman: I don't know if I should start there, but I know I need to get there.
• 56:54
  Megan Dahlman: My jumpstart series of programs is what's going to get you there lifting weights safely.
• 57:00
  Philip Pape: And is there like a teaser video or a taste of it from there that we can throw in the show notes for folks?
• 57:05
  Megan Dahlman: Yes, Just go to VigeoFitcom, slash jumpstart.
• 57:09
  Megan Dahlman: And that's the info about Jumpstart 30.
• 57:12
  Philip Pape: Yeah, All right, that's what we'll do.
• 57:13
  Philip Pape: Everybody, please check that out.
• 57:14
  Philip Pape: Megan is awesome.
• 57:15
  Philip Pape: There's a reason I have had her on the show multiple times and she's a font of not only the science information but the practical information and everything she's saying.
• 57:25
  Philip Pape: I agree with it, so it's got to be right.
• 57:30
  Philip Pape: So, yeah, go go check her out.
• 57:33
  Philip Pape: We'll, we can throw your socials in there, but I'd rather them just hit you up at the jumpstart and check that out as step one.
• 57:39
  Philip Pape: So anything else you want to say, Megan, before we sign off.
• 57:41
  Megan Dahlman: Yeah, just come say hi everybody.
• 57:43
  Megan Dahlman: I'd love to meet you and Philip, thanks again for having me on the show.
• 57:46
  Megan Dahlman: I love you.
• 57:46
  Megan Dahlman: This is great.
• 57:48
  Philip Pape: Always a pleasure, so much fun talking to you.
• 57:49
  Philip Pape: The time flies by, so thanks again, megan, for coming on.
• 57:51
  Philip Pape: Wits and Weights Thank you.