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How to Handle Difficult People: Stoic Strategies, Empathy vs. Compassion, and Communication Techniques · The Stoic Handbook with Jon Brooks

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: In this talk, we're going to be looking at specific strategies and ideas and methods for dealing with difficult individuals, high-conflict individuals.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to be looking at personality disorders, general tensions in relationships, and also some stoic practices as well for this.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the ancient Stoics, some 2,000 years ago, they were interested in wisdom, practical wisdom, how to live a good life, how to develop excellence of character.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And yet they spent quite a lot of time talking about how to handle insults and how to handle difficult individuals.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: At first, this may sound a bit strange.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how can these really serious philosophers be so concerned about insults and difficult individuals, difficult people in their lives?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually not that surprising, really.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you think back over your life, I would imagine that nearly all of the best times in your life were the result of other human beings.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Not all, but I would say most.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: And likewise all of the worst times in your life were the result of other people.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's different kinds of categories of different difficult people.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: You have, on the one hand, a sort of emotionally healthy individual, relatively speaking, but maybe they have a lot of uh disagreeableness in their personality structure.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So they're just not very agreeable.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: They tend to disagree and negotiate and give you a hard time.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's one aspect.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you are dealing with someone who's very ambitious, and that ambitious ambition makes them ruthless and almost selfish.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have lots of different in-between stages, and then on the far end, you have narcissistic personality disorder, which is characterized by a sort of lack of empathy, um, manipulation, and often very abusive and control.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: They want to dominate and bully.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that I want to talk about early on is this idea of a caretaker.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: People that are natural caretakers are very susceptible to being abused and mistreated, and they almost attract difficult toxic people into their lives.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So a caretaker is someone who feels like they constantly need to fix problems for other people.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um they get sometimes more satisfaction in helping other people than themselves.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: They often have a lot of empathy, they're often intelligent as well.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um people that have this kind of I'm a good person and I do good things, kind of moral mindset.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, when when an abusive person sees that you're a caretaker, you're kind of done at that point.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because an abusive individual has almost like an endless list of needs and a lack of empathy, and you combine those two things with a caretaker, and they're just gonna give, give, give until they have nothing left.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it can be a really difficult situation to be in.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so the the message that I want to instill in you from the beginning of this talk is that caring for people is great.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Being a caretaker for people is not great.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you are hired as a professional carer, you I would encourage you not to be a caretaker.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things we need to learn how to do is to be caring, but not to be a caretaker.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna go into that.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: One of the dilemmas that a caretaker feels is this distinction that Paul Bloom, the psychologist and author Paul Bloom, talks about when it comes to empathy versus compassion.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of us, there's definitely a correlation, right?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're high in empathy, you'll usually be more compassionate.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're lacking in empathy, you'll usually be less compassionate.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: But they are two distinct things.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Empathy, Paul Bloom characterizes as your ability to feel what other people are feeling.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone around you is angry, you feel tense.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: If someone around you is sad, you feel sad.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: If someone around you is excited, you feel excited.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like you get affected quite easily by other people's emotions.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then more than that, these emotions are so strong in you, they stir you to act.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if uh a manipulative person comes along and they're acting out this pain, you know, like I have no money, I need money, I'm really struggling, I have no food, these are all these problems, I can't pay my bills, I'm really struggling.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: A highly empathic person is going to be um compelled to just give the money, you know, because I can't stand that feeling, the pain, the suffering.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Claudia says, Where's the boundary between caring and caretaking?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, this is exactly what empathy versus compassion is all about.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, compassion, on the other hand, is a more detached form of empathy that involves understanding the other person's suffering and wishing to alleviate it without feeling it.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the Buddhists and the Stoics as well, they have a lot of practices for compassion.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, compassion you could say is divided into two aspects.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's sympathetic joy, so wanting other people to do well and to be happy, and then there's the desire to alleviate suffering.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: It is possible that you could genuinely want someone to be free of suffering and to experience more joy without getting infected with their emotions.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Empathy can actually lead you to making worse moral decisions as well.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So empathy can actually make you less less of a good person.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And Paul Bloom talks about this in his book.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason why is because your empathy can be hijacked.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just say rationally, someone explains to you that you know, if you spend$100 on this cause, you'll be helping a thousand people dealing with this problem.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, okay, that makes sense.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: But then the next day, you just see a video of a young child suffering greatly, and you get to learn their story on the TV, your empathy gets hijacked, and then maybe you spend$100 on her, right?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas you could have helped a whole village if you were think just thinking about it reasonably with just looking at the numbers.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so that empathy, which fundamentally is good, it's coming from a good place, can lead you to make bad decisions.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you weigh those two things up.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's certainly a better decision, like saving a village or having one individual.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's you know, it's kind of obvious which one would be the most compassionate perspective if you were just thinking about it rationally.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the way that you can develop compassion is quite simply by doing compassion-based meditations.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the best ways to do it.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: I actually have a book here, which I also recommend on my bookshelf.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's called The Compassionate Mind by Paul Gilbert.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite a thick book.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's sort of almost like a scientific psychological investigation of compassion.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's also Buddhist ideas in it too.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Also reading um Against Empathy by Paul Bloom.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not anti-emphy, because I think empathy is this is you need empathy to create art and to create movies and to be a good teacher and to understand the minds of other people.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: We just don't want to feel empathy so much that we can't function as well as we possibly can.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: So a narcissist, and just some information on narcissism, which we'll probably go back to.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: One of the theories is that a narcissist has two selves.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: They have this very vulnerable, wounded self, and the way that they learn to cope and function in the world is by creating a an artificial, perfect self on top.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is the narcissistic self.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the superficial layer of the narcissist on top is essentially a person that can never be criticized is never responsible for any wrongdoing.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it can be very difficult to treat narcissism, because a narcissist in therapy will try to one-up the therapist.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: A narcissist in therapy will try to subtly gain power and control and dominate.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because why do they need help?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: They don't.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're perfect.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: But deep down, this kind of other self beneath the surface, it's a bit like Voldemort in the Harry Potter movie, you know, like in the early ones when Voldemort is like shriveled and like not very strong.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: That is beneath every narcissist.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: On the top, there's this glistening, superficial layer.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just talk about caring versus caretaking for a moment.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: When you are caretaking someone, you're on some level functioning from this place that your needs are not as important as the other person's.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: A truly compassionate individual is like, I am worthy of love, and you are worthy of love.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Not I am not worthy of love, my needs are not that important, but yours are.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore, I'm gonna put myself out, bend over backwards, make crazy adjustments in my life, let boundaries that I have go so I can help you with your needs.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's caretaking.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: The Dalai Lama, the story goes when he first came to the West, he was very surprised to hear the word self-compassion.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because he was like, What do you mean self-compassion?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: How is that different from normal compassion?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: He was surprised that we distinguished between the two.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if you look at Buddhist compassion meditations, meta meditations, they always start with gratitude and loving-kindness towards yourself.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because of course, if you don't have your own cup full, how can you truly direct it towards other people?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what a lot of caretakers are really doing is they're not actually being caring at all.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you think back to times when you were caretaking, are you actually being caring or are you being anxious?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Are you feeling obligated?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Are you feeling guilty?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are you feeling stressed?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: When I look back in my own life, times that I was caretaking, it was because I was stressed or anxious, manipulated.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't because I really want this person to be good.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I really want from my highest self this person to be well.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna do these nice things for them.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was like I feel stress and anxiety, and I want this to go away.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's caretaking.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, caretakers can often be manipulative in their own way, but they're not necessarily trying to ruin the lives of the people they're caretaking for.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but they're still trying to get some level of control.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about some actual communication strategies now that can be useful for caretakers and the rest of us when it comes to setting boundaries.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, before we get into the topic on boundaries, what do you think a boundary is?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think of boundaries?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: What is a boundary?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: What is the purpose of boundaries?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a really good parenting book, but I actually think it's a great book for non-parents too, called Good Inside by Becky Kennedy.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: She also has a great conversation with Andrew Huberman on his podcast.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And she says that a boundary is not something that the other person that another person has to do.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where people get mixed up with boundary setting.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: A boundary is something you can do all on your own.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And she gives the example of your child is watching TV and you want them to stop watching TV, let's just say, because they've had enough time watching TV and you've got to leave to go do something.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: So some parents think that boundary setting is turn off the TV now.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: They don't turn it off.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Say it more forcefully, turn off the TV now.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: The child says it more forcefully, like shouting, I'm setting a boundary.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas Becky Kennedy would say that actually, no, if you're setting a boundary properly, the child doesn't even need to do anything.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, can you turn off the TV, please?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've got to go do this thing.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Child doesn't do it.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm just letting you know if you don't turn off the TV in the next two minutes, I'm gonna go come over there and I'm gonna turn off the TV and then I'm gonna get your coat.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's boundary setting.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the child doesn't have to comply.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if the child doesn't comply, that's fine.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: You do your thing, which is turn off the TV.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that makes things way more simple, I think.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And also puts things back in control because it's very frustrating feeling like other people have to follow your boundaries all the time.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody, you can't control other people.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a basic stoic idea, the dichotomy of control.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: If someone is not acting in a way that you like, you can't make them.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can't make them act differently.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: What can you do?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's boundary setting.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And usually boundary setting is primarily about protecting yourself and others.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the main idea of it.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the first communication model that I want to talk to you about is called the I communication model, sometimes called the Yale communication model.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And this is really good for talking to children, also really good for talking to high conflict individuals.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things you want to avoid with high conflict individuals is using the word you because they're a part of them feels more comfortable in conflict than in peace.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like their nervous system is hardwired for conflict, fighting, for whatever reason.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's almost like they're black belts in high conflict situations.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is why I actually really don't recommend ever playing the same games as a narcissist back to them.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like I practice Brazilian jujitsu, and it's like if I've been training, let's just say six years, if someone has been training one week and they try to beat me at jujitsu, it's just not gonna work.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the best way to beat me is to not do jujitsu is to do something else.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think some of us think, whoa, that narcissist is be is acting in these, you know, really difficult, high conflict manipulative ways.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna mirror that back to them.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Big mistake.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: You you have not been the first person to try that.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: They are ready and willing to do that.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, don't ever copy the same style as like a high conflict narcissistic individual.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, does anyone know the I communication model for having difficult conversations?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: I personally use this all the time and I find it very useful.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the way that it's the way that I've learned it, there's different approaches, is that it's like this.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: You start by saying when blank happens I feel blank, I would like blank, or I will need to blank.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just four four that's why I love it so much.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's so simple.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's just four parts.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna say that again.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: When blank happens, I feel blank, so insert the feelings.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: I would like blank, or I will need to blank.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Within that, you explain the situation, you explain how you feel, you make a request for what you want to be different, and then you end it by setting a boundary.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I will need to do this other thing.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would really recommend using this in low-stakes situations first.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So use it with friends, family members, use it for little things, use it with children, use it with parents, use it online before you take it to the difficult person.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: You want to get comfortable with it and practice it.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just say that I'm dealing with a a difficult superior team leader, as Nia is.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let me try and think of a situation that a team leader could could be doing.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um assigning me too much work.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just say that.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say to the team leader, when I get assigned uh X amount of work, um, you know, which goes beyond the scope of the hours that I've committed to, I feel stressed, I feel frustrated, a little bit anxious and overwhelmed.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would like it if you give me a heads up of at least two weeks before assigning me anything, or check in with me first to see if I'm capable of doing it.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or I will need to start making adjustments or requests about my role and responsibilities, or I will need to go and speak to the superior manager, whatever, um, about changing the way that we're assigned tasks.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm making the last bit up because I don't have a good reference for it.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um let's just use the example that I would I've used recently with my child, right?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So like my child was speaking very loudly, shouting, and I just said to him, When I'm talking to someone, I didn't even say you, when I'm talking to someone calmly and they are shouting at me, I feel quite agitated, a bit on edge, and a bit stressed out because loud noises make me feel that way.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: I would like it is if if you could just talk a little bit quieter for me and we could both talk to each other calmly.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I'll have to wait until everyone calms down before we keep talking.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's very simple.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the last statement is, or I will need two.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing about the eye communication model is you sometimes you don't need to go through all four.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I would save the last one for more serious situations.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the most important, you could even just say the first two most of the time.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: When this happens, I feel.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: When this happens, I feel.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: The top the the first three combined is like I would say 70% of the time, I would I would just say the top three.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: When this happens, I feel I would like.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's enough.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes against a high conflict person, they will interpret the oh, I will need to as a way to kind of you're like they they almost like they think you're trying to be assertive, so they're gonna try and bully you sometimes with certain high conflict people.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh okay, you're standing up to me now.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that one is is definitely to be used if you feel like it's not working already.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: So keep it there, but you don't always have to use it.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: The other technique that I want to talk to you about is called the DMAN method.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've got the structure written here.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you might want to write down in your notebook DMAN.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually going to write it in the chat here because the acronym is very useful.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I find this to be really useful when it comes to written communication, but if you get good at it through written communication, emails, texts, even voice notes, because you can kind of think before you speak, you can get better at using it then in real situations.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the Diamant method is essentially a system for being assertive.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of people talk about assertiveness training.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: I got a bunch of books on my bookshelf on assertiveness.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And what I found is that a lot of people, when they learn about assertiveness, is that they go too far, the other side, and they see everything as an opportunity to be assertive.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then they they get reactions that tells them, like, hey, back off a bit.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're going a bit overboard with the assertiveness stuff.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then they kind of drop it all.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: So they end up in exactly the same place as they were before they ended assertiveness stuff.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: The DMAN method I like because you can just continue to be you, but now you just have a tool that you can use to be assertive.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the acronym goes as follows.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: The D stands for describe.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you clearly state state the facts of the situation.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there's it a tension or a conflict that you're dealing with.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you can say like, I know this, this, this, and this happen.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we're at.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is the description of the situation.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Then you express your feelings and thoughts.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the E, express.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: The A stands for assert.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you ask for what you want or say no.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: So describe, express, assert.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: The R is reinforce.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you highlight the positive outcomes of your request.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: So think of it like I'm going to describe, I'm going to tell you how I feel and what I'm thinking.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to assert my view.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm going to show you why my view with the reinforcement is a good view.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: The man is less important.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the icing on the cake.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: The man stands for mindful.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: So just stay focused on the goal, the outcome of the conversation, appear confident, and be willing to negotiate.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So end for negotiation.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the man is more like the vibe, the tone, mindfulness, appear, appear confident, be willing to negotiate confidently.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the dear part is really the technique.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Describe, express, assert, reinforce.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Alisa says, I was recently assertive after I felt like someone was demeaning towards me and their behavior was toxic to gain control, and they didn't like my assertiveness, so they abruptly ended the conversation.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a win for you.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big that's a big win for you.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um typically uh toxic individuals do not like assertive people.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: They pick and choose.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: They are almost looking for prey.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: People lacking in assertiveness, high in empathy, um helper type individuals, um, people that are very agreeable, don't like conflict.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the types of people that toxic people attract.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Dia is describe, express, assert, reinforce, and man is mindfulness, appear confident, and negotiate.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I really like these two methods.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I find them useful.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Another system which is really powerful is nonviolent communication or NVC.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: So he's on InsightTimer, and he has like a bunch of courses on nonviolent communication and tracks and meditations.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he's I know him personally, and he's been studying nonviolent communication very in-depth and doing all the certifications for quite a while.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: So he's a good resource right here on Insight Timer that you can look look to.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just describe the basic four-part model.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the idea with nonviolent communication is that all of our destructive negative emotions come from unmet needs.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so there's a certain need that we have, maybe we don't know that need explicitly ourselves, other people certainly don't know it, or they do know it and they're not giving it to us, and so that's when our problematic behavior comes forth.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: The way that we communicate using the nonviolent communication model is we observe without evaluation.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: So as soon as we start adding our own story onto our observations, that's when people see it as criticism.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if I said to Justin, hey Justin, you you've been working way too much, Justin will probably think, Well, you know, who who the hell are you?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: What do you know?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if I said to Justin, hey Justin, uh, I noticed that every time I've tried messaging you this week, you said that you were busy working.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's a fact.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's fact-based communication.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's not me adding my own evaluation on there.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Work too much.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first level of nonviolent communication.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: We we gotta learn this skill of observing without adding stories.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed, I can see, and try to keep it to the actual facts.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: This skill alone is huge.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: You just start paying attention to how much your observations about other people contain your own projections and narratives.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or mind reading, like telling them how they felt, telling them, you know, the reasons why they did something, adding your own model of reality on their onto their actions.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you notice um someone, you get this vibe that someone around you is like being really angry, you don't want to go in there being like, you've been super angry lately.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's an evaluation.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, you want to stick to the observations.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um in the last few conversations we've had, you've had this sort of a tense look on your face and your fists have been clenching a bit.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the conversations that the last three conversations that we've had have been different from the ones we've had before.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot less laughter and joy.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm just curious why that is, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's trying to be more observant there.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: The next level of non-violent communication is expressing feelings.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Again, this is another thing that a lot of us really struggle with is uh we often confuse thoughts and feelings.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we will say I feel like you're not taking me seriously, it's like where's the feeling?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like you don't care about me.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you're a jerk.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: These are all thoughts.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're a jerk.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think you don't care about me.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: These are all cognitions.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: A feeling is something like envy, anger, anxiety, grief, sadness, excitement, joy, surprise, disgust.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: These are feelings.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so many of us have become masters at not using these words when we're talking about ourselves.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: The example that I like to give when it comes to dealing with difficult people in in difficult situations is imagine if I came to you and I said to you, as a conversation starter, I thought the way that you spoke to me over dinner was out of order and it was rude.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you've got work to do on yourself.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many people out of a hundred people are gonna be happy to receive that as a conversation starter and are gonna be open to discussing that further with you?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: The nonviolent commun communication model would say you would start the conversation by saying, Hey, when we had that conversation over dinner, I was hurt.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was hurt by the words that were used.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very different conversation.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now that person is like, oh, why?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to talk about it.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me why.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Why were you hurt?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: What was wrong?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're actually talking.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, you you might be thinking, why do I need to use a nonviolent communication model when dealing with difficult people?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: My philosophy here is that you can never control other people's reactions.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to take full responsibility for how you show up in your interactions.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: There may be situations where you have to cut ties completely with people, but if you are still having to deal with people that are difficult, whether that's in work and family life, you want to have a big toolkit.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And nonviolent communication is one such toolkit.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're dealing with someone who's paranoid and you're giving them evaluations when you're calling things out, the paranoia is going to get worse.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: If on the other hand you're using fact-based communication, that's actually a recommended thing to do when dealing with a narcissist, keep it to the facts.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: So in nonviolent communication, we have express or observe.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, observe without evaluation.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: The second one is to express needs and feelings.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: The third model is to take a look at what you actually are requiring from that situation.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to get good at recognizing both what you need and trying to recognize what the person you're talking to needs.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when you're dealing with a high conflict person, it's very tempting to think of yourself in terms of I'm a victim, they're a perpetrator.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is called a drama triangle.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: In the drama triangle, you can look this up.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's a victim, a perpetrator, and a helper.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we can get into this mindset where we feel like we're always one of these.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: So at first, we're the helper, right?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just say we have a toxic boss.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're trying to help the boss with whatever project it is.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: The boss doesn't treat us very well.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we now feel like a victim.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: One day we've had enough.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to be a victim anymore.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then we get aggressive with our boss, and now we're the perpetrator.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we just flick between these three states in this drama triangle.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what we need to do is to stop playing that game altogether, to completely stop playing the drama triangle game.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: When you start looking for the feelings and needs and the people that you're talking to, it's almost like you can see the matrix.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can see things that you couldn't see before.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have that toxic boss, instead of automatically defaulting to, poor me, I'm a victim of this tyrant.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, you can think to yourself, what do they feel and what do they need?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: What do they feel and what do they need?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And just get really good at that.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: What do they feel and what do they need?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they feel stressed and they need to feel in control.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now you know that.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're at an advantage.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: So now you can potentially give them the illusion of control.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm not sure about it, but I would guess, because of your position that you're in right now, that you're probably a bit overwhelmed, a bit stressed.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now I I want to be here to support you.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: But, or and, because again, high conflict people, you don't really want to use the word but with, replace the word but with and.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good habit as well.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: It makes it seem much more like you're a collaborator.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to support you as best as I can.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: So here's what I propose.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is what um Chris Voss calls tactical empathy.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So at the beginning of this talk, I talked a little bit about some of the issues with with regular empathy and why compassion is better.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Tactical empathy is a little bit different.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: Tactical empathy is about giving people the illusion of control.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: We'll circle back to that in a moment.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just finish the nonviolent communication section first.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the first part of nonviolent communication is observations, the second is feelings, the third is needs, identifying your needs and other people's needs.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: The fourth part is making a request.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: This last part about making requests blew my mind.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that a request is different from a demand.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: I see this all the time with parenting.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, come here now, please.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, why are you saying please?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or what do they say?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Can you come here now, please?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the child is like, no, I'm okay.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then the parent gets mad.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you're you're making a request.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the child has a choice, right?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're asking a question, you're using the word please, and this is where it gets, and then they're like, the child's not listening to me.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, listening is different from complying.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: The child heared every word you said.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So requests are different from demands.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you're making a true request, the person doesn't have to do what you ask them to do.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's a true request.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: You actually listen to them and you work with whatever they give you.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Toxic people, in my experience, don't make requests, they make demands.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big difference.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: So one way you can stop yourself from being toxic is to really learn the art of making true requests without always attaching a negative consequence to the end of it.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: So a demand is met with a punishment if it's not followed.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you don't do this, something bad will happen.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna shout, I'm gonna go crazy, I'm gonna punish you in this way.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: A request is if you don't do my request, nothing bad's gonna happen.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna talk more about it.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so really being aware of this, I thought that was very useful and interesting.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Another distinction is useful is the difference between confrontation and conflict.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Think of these as states.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you can be in confrontation, you can be in conflict.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: What we need to learn is to be comfortable in confrontation without moving into conflict.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Think of it like this.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: I learned this from Dan Munro.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: He's a great, he's written a few really good books on honesty and authenticity and boundary setting.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And he says that when someone is in conflict, that is like the fight mode activated in the fight or flight system.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: When you're in conflict, you're not thinking rationally, you don't have what's best for both of you in mind, you're more interested in winning.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever felt that?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: You've been in a tense situation, like conversation, and you can feel the adrenaline starting to circulate.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: You feel this kind of competitiveness rise up in you.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: You become like single-pointed in your approach.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I was in a supermarket back in COVID time, and uh there was certain like you had to walk around the store a certain way, a large supermarket, and I went there and it was very quiet.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to like walk away that I wasn't supposed to walk, and one of the staff members got like very annoyed at me and was like, you're not allowed to walk that way.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: I my first thought was like like, you know, it's yes, is it like is it really that much of a big deal?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like I'm walking like two meters to get to this place quicker.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I tried kind of explaining that and they got worse.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was almost like they became, even though they were just a regular store worker, they switched into this kind of authority police mode character.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I felt in conflict at that point.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt all those feelings of um the kind of adrenaline, the desire to kind of put them in their place and to win and to show them I was right and they were being silly and all that kind of thing.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I I just remember what that felt like, and I just thank God for mindfulness, because the beauty of mindfulness is that you could see it, I could see what was happening, and then I just said, Oh yeah, it's not worth it.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then I just was like, I'm just not gonna think about this anymore.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then I carried on with what I was gonna do.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a few seconds later, maybe a minute later, the thought came back about this conversation.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: And anger and a lot of negative emotions, actually, they have a very short half-life, they don't last very long on their own.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: What makes them last a long time is that you're sustaining them, you're adding fuel to them, you're kind of finding reasons to be angry.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: I actually have a course about this called Seneca's Stoic Toolbox for anger management, if you're interested.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, at Seneca recognized that you know, one of the reasons why we get get angry is because part of us, when we start feeling angry, wants to continue to be angry.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: We start looking for more and more reasons to maintain that feeling.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to just drop it and be like, oh, okay, I can see that happening, but no, I'm good.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's conflict.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're no longer thinking rationally.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what we want.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: What we want is to be comfortable in confrontation.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: So in a if I don't know if you ever watch interrogation footage, I'm a big fan of watching uh criminal interrogations on criminology channels.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: I find it very interesting to kind of observe the psychology of these things.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: You'll see the interrogator Jester says my wife makes you watch true crime.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Umbody has to make me watch true crime.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things you see with the interrogation stuff is that there comes a moment usually when the interrogator confronts the person that they're interrogating.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: So at first they may be friendly, they may build rapport, but at a certain point they have to kind of let the person they know talking to, that they're talking to, that it they're not actually off the hook.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have this piece of evidence or we've seen this thing.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that is the kind of thing that I'm talking about here.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like the a good interrogator wouldn't lose their temper or cool in an investigation.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: That would ruin everything.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: But they have to be willing to feel some of those uncomfortable feelings of like, I'm about to take this into an uncomfortable place.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that I always recommend, um, this is something I got from Dr.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Aziz.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a book called Not Nice, which is about assertiveness, which is really good, is that you give yourself a 30-day challenge, and every day you try to find something that you disagree with and you just verbalize it.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be anything, it could be something small.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like say you're at you're going down the street and someone goes, Oh, it's a lovely day, isn't it?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you kind of, instead of automatically going, yeah, it's lovely, it's great, you know, which is what a lot of us would do.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: You go, uh, yeah, it's okay.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of wish it was a bit cooler and a bit warm.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you're like finding, you know, you're not being like mean or anything, but you're just being, you're practicing being a bit more real.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're practicing going against the grain, the flow a little bit.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: B, you're doing great notes, yeah.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for this.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is great.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: That exercise that you can do, practice being a bit disagreeable or practice saying the word no more often as well can be useful.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then a mantra that I really like as well.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of conflict avoidant people subtly are chasing approval and validation.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like we don't feel um whole or good enough on ourselves by ourselves.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we need other people to make us feel that way.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: So when other people can give us approval to make us feel liked, appreciated, then we can feel good.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is with this mode of being is that your emotional state is always dependent on other people.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're gonna subtly change your natural authentic personality and modify it in a manipulative way, really, because it's not super authentic, to try and poke people and prob people to give you the reactions of validation that you need to pump up your self-image.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it makes sense why we would do it.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've done it, I think most of us here have been in situations like that where we just wanted to be liked and we wanted approval from other people.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: But a couple of things.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, rarely do people really, really, really like you when you're like that.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're not quite you, right?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're not quite fully authentic.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's something that's a bit fake and a bit like superficial.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, that person's nice, but I don't know if I really like love them.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not like I give them my life, it's not like I'd have their back no matter what, because I don't they tend to always agree with me, and I don't know.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a bit of that vibe.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um so one of the best mantras for kind of unhooking from this validation and approval seeking I also got from Dr.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Aziz is just to repeat to yourself I don't need your approval mentally when you're about to go into a uh social situation.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because over time we can start to feel like we actually need other people's approval.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we don't, something's really bad.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the fear of confrontation, one just kind of coaching question for you is is it the confrontation that makes you anxious?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it the lack of approval?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: And because when you go against against the grain or you ruffle feathers, you're not no longer gonna automatically get approval.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're not getting approval, that can feel very scary.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's like going into a new social situation and nobody's approving of you.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of terrifying.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh my god.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like the first day of school, you want everyone to like you, right?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're seeking approval.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, that's something else to think about.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: If someone is abusive and you think they may like legitimately have like a personality disorder, like narcissism, and it's not being treated, it just it is very difficult slash impossible to have then a healthy relationship with that person.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's such a serious kind of disorder if someone's like abusive in that way.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it's it's it's it's a personal choice that everyone needs to make.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do they want to maintain a relationship that is gonna have abuse and kind of keep themselves a bit distant, but then can say that oh I did have contact?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it just too destructive, too dangerous, where the best thing that they can do is to kind of take a step back permanently?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's yeah, that's kind of the issue.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um But yeah, it's a tough place to be because a part of you is like, you know, these are my parents, and there is love there.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um but at the same time, I've got to protect myself and do what's right for me, so it is a it is a tricky situation.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: But this is actually a good segue because the other tech another technique I wanted to talk to you about is the grey rock technique.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, gray rock is a technique that's been used for many years by people that have to maintain some level of contact with abusive narcissistic individuals.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: The most popular advice given to people that are in abusive dynamics is to go no contact.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're indoctrinated with an abuser, it's almost like they've installed a certain kind of programming within you or virus, or certain set they kind of figured certain things about you out, and so in some ways you're just not safe around that person anymore.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of like um a dog that's been meet mistreated, even if their next owner treats them really well, maybe as soon as they go back to that previous owner that was mistreating them, and that owner like does something scary, that dog reverts straight away back to the to the victim.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's just the way it is.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like trauma bonding as well as plays a role.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've been in a toxic abusive relationship, it's usually better to just go no contact and just move on, and the world's a big place, right?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, just keep going and have have no contact and just keep growing and working on yourself and learn a lesson.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: But not everyone has that luxury.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's family members, sometimes you have a child with a person, or there's sometimes you have to work with that person.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's lots of situations where going no contact is either not possible or just not what you want to do.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: In these situations, gray rock technique is advised.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And what you want to do when you practice gray rock is you want to make yourself boring to the narcissist or the toxic person.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Being boring and uninteresting is the thing that will make you that will make them hate you more than being aggressive or antagonistic back.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's kind of what they want.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you practice gray rock?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: You don't share personal information about your life, you give very short answers, like yeah, no, not much.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: You never ask personal questions about them.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: You try to steer the conversation back to like the one thing that you have to talk about.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just say you share a child with someone and they start talking about like this thing that they did and this trip, and it's like, oh okay.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, how's right, and you bring it back to the situation.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: And a really big one is you try to put a time limit on interactions.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like one of one abusive strategy that abusers use is called word salad.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's a book called Psychopath Free, where um I think his name is Mackenzie Jackson, I think that's his name, wrote the book.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um he gives a long list of the different techniques, but word salad is this ability that uh a narcissist has to kind of confuse you and and kind of make you feel like you don't know quite where you are by just throwing lots of words at you and talking and talking and talking and talking and talking to the point where you you don't you just you're dealing with too much information, your brain can't handle it, and then maybe you try talking and then they bully you, they interrupt you, and then you can't, and it's like it's a difficult conversation to be in, and sometimes you feel stuck in a conversation.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've spoken to a couple of people that they were um one person in particular they had to kind of co-parent, and after they broke up with the co-parent, that co-parent was still ringing them um and just talking at length about their life, and they were just like they weren't even saying anything back, they were just talking and talking and talking.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but eventually gray grey rock saved the day.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to be consistent with gray rock, um, and you always want to get into conversations where they're like an escape, like a way out quickly.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um for you to be effective using the gray rock technique, there's one caveat, and it's you need to really recognize that the person that you're using this technique with is not gonna be changing anytime soon.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you think that someone who's abusive or narcissistic is probably gonna change and probably gonna be okay, and they just need another chance, they just need you to empathize with them a bit more, then you're probably gonna use grey rock a little bit and then stop using it, and then you're just done again.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um the grey rock technique is almost anti-nonviolent communication in a way, the spirit of it, because you're actually not being authentic.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: You are putting on a bit of a front by being withdrawn and reserved because you just feel like the person you're dealing with is dangerous ultimately.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so, while in general life, none I'd never recommend being fake or putting on a front if you're dealing with someone who is a uh has a dangerous personality, then of course it's you know, I like I like this idea that honesty is really important um and a core value of mine.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: One of the few times where you can potentially break that rule of always being honest is in a self-defense situation, you know, like if you if you feel like your life is on the line and not being fully authentic or fully honest is a way that you feel like you could protect yourself and cause the least amount of harm, I think that's what you know an exception to the honesty rule.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Grey Rock is is proof of that working.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: Another interesting fact, I think, about uh um relationships is that there's a great book called Stop Caretaking the Narcissist or BPD by Margelise Fernstad, I think her name is.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she's an amazing therapist and an amazing author on uh families and working with uh people with personality disorders.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: And she says one of the worst things you can do is get Kapul's therapy if you're in a relationship with like a narcissist, because they will just use whatever insights you give in kappa's therapy to just further bully, dominate, and abuse you.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um these are people that are not playing the same game as you, and I think you need to have experience, experiences dealing with these types of individuals to get it.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you've never experienced it, you'll probably just think they're just like normal people, but they just have slightly different needs from us.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the way that I see it is that they have radically different needs from us, you know.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's like imagine looking up this chat right now with the mindset of what can I get from every person here for my own advantage.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's I'm guessing nobody here is doing that, right?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, that's how they are probably thinking.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's a very dangerous mindset to have.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: So the grey rock technique is yeah, you just make yourself a rock in in relation to them.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: Boring, uninteresting, short answers.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the keys are you've gotta be consistent, it's gotta be a way of life.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like they're they're always gonna be looking for an in.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: The moment you break the gray rock, you it's almost like starting again.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's gotta be this constant way of life, like you commit to never breaking it.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's another book that I I also really liked, Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: So Chris Voss was an FBI negotiator, and I wasn't really interested in it so much from the perspective of negotiating, like business deals and things like that.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because I can I can change the volume quite easily, but I just didn't know it.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there we go.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a lesson for us all as well to call out issues.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: I actually did see that this engine 64 meditators here now.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: I did say at the beginning of the talk, are there any issues?
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um the right one doesn't work still, okay.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like a lack of um okay, cool.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'll try to fix that for next time.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: Microphone quality stereo.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: What I learned from Chris Boss is that he was dealing in his FBI negotiations, hostage situations with terrorists.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: He was working with people that were aggressive, irrational, wanted to kind of bully him and assert control.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he came up with a few techniques, very simple techniques that are easy to use in high-stakes situations that I like a lot.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one is the tone of your voice, and he calls it the late-night DJ voice.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so he said, when you're dealing with someone who's like very kind of aggressive and tightly strung, you can intentionally tone everything down.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so instead of talking like this and trying to figure out the problem, it's like, hey, I noticed that right, and you kind of make it slower.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: You seem like you're uh having a bit of a hard time right now.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you can I'm exaggerating, but you can just learn to kind of slow it down and speak in a kind of a late-night DJ voice, and that will actually diffuse a lot of the tension because it's just naturally calming.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing you can do is talk with a smile.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're slightly smiling, you're you sound different.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, especially this is very good if you're on the phone, you can kind of force a smile, and this will infuse the conversation with more positivity.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can do it in real life too.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Just have a little bit of a kind of a slight smile or like an uplifting grin on your face when you're speaking, that can be useful as well.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: So these are kind of body language hacks you can use.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then the two techniques that he recommends is labeling and mirroring.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: So studies have shown that when you can label your own thoughts, your own negative emotions, and put them into words, you don't feel them as much.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're feeling anxiety and you say, I am feeling anxious because of XYZ, and you can label it and you can put it into words, it actually reduces the feeling a bit.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: You feel better.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: The same thing works in reverse.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: When you can label other people's feelings, it actually makes them feel better.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: If someone is agitated and like in this kind of exasperated state, smiling is not the technique to use.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's the late-night DJ voice.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: The smiling is is more of a sort of um, you you've got to kind of these are just tools, you've got to find the right moment to use them.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe if someone's a bit withdrawn, okay, and now you want to kind of insert a bit of positivity into the situation, then smiling can be a bit of an uplifting kind of uh technique.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um I personally don't use the smiling thing that much because in the high in the high conflict um discussions that I'm in, I think it would be like, what are you laughing at?
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: might be one of the responses, you know.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I tend to not use that much.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um but in more relaxed situations, then smiling can be used.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: The late night DJ voice, that's a more kind of reliable technique.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: But going back to labeling, so labeling is when you can put into words where another person is feeling, and so what you do is you you say you seem um or you sound, and then you insert a label.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you you can you can say anything, you can say thoughts, feelings, um, like you seem like um oh no, it sounds actually, it sounds or it seems, or it sounds like this is really important for you.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it sounds like you really want this to work.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you're pretty stressed out about how things have been going.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: You just add it in, it sounds like, it seems like, it sounds like it seems like.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it is actually like a it's you know it invites collaboration.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so a good negotiator doesn't want to actually fight with anyone.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: A good negotiator wants to collaborate.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, we're on the same side.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually gonna try and understand your position better.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's when you can have a real conversation.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're never gonna be able to figure something out if you feel like you're opposed.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's never gonna work.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you feel like the person talking to you gets you, gets what you what you're feeling, gets what you're thinking is on your side, now you can actually get somewhere.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, just start practicing that.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: This sentence stem, it sounds like, and just insert it in there.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you've had a really long day today.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you've been paying a lot of attention during this talk.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you've got a lot of ideas that you can use in your own relationships now.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you've had some difficult relationships in the past.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, I'm labeling, I'm labeling, I'm kind of just picking up.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: B, it seems like you care a lot about the ideas here and you want other people to benefit from those ideas too.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's labeling.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now by me saying that, you may feel like there's more of a kind of a collaboration frame between us, right?
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: Than it before I had said that.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm actually trying to kind of look into your intentions as well.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: Mirroring is when you sort of repeat the last three words that the person said at the end of their statement.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you kind of take on their um word choice.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's research done on uh waiters and waitresses um copying the exact phrasing of the orders in restaurants and getting more tips.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's a known thing.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone has a very specific way of asking for a meal, if you repeat that back in exactly the same words, not deviating from them at all, you get more tips than if you paraphrase it or you change the word in, which is kind of crazy.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's because people feel like a kinship with you.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone is saying to you, like, hey, I don't like the way you've been showing up, I think that there's a lot of work to do, you mirror that by ghost by saying there's a lot of work to do.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they go, Well, yeah, there's you know there's a lot of work to do.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I noticed that you just haven't been putting in the effort that, you know, recently that you used to put in.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: That I used to put in.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like, you know, a month ago, you right, and you're not even you're not even saying anything.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're just almost just mirroring what they're saying and giving them the opportunity to um continue to talk.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: Can mirroring be a form of manipulation?
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good question.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think a lot of community any kind of communication technique can be viewed from the frame of manipulation.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're using language in like an instrumental way to create an effect.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um I personally would never do this with my friend or my friends or partner or anything like that.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would never mirror them.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um I may do it in a way to kind of like if I'm thinking like we've had a conflict and I want us genuinely to be able to talk about it, I may automatically kind of um say something like it seems like you know, you're pretty mad at me right now.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: That I don't think is manipulation, really.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just kind of like how there's a good as a I've learned a cool way to express what I think they're feeling, which then could invite further conversation.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like I'm trying to like manipulate them if I did that.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_00: Mirroring can be used, I guess it's intention.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can use mirroring as a way to fake closeness with people, or you can use mirroring as a way to learn, you know.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just say I want to actually know about what you think.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: I can say to you, hey, I want to know everything you think.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then you kind of go, Well, I don't know, right?
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas mirroring could be a way, like an opportunity for for me to kind of gradually get to know that.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you tell me something and I ask a follow-up question.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mirror back to you what you know what you said for extra information.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's a psychological illusionist that really inspired me called Darren Brown.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: I have a couple of his books here as well, actually.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he wrote a book called Happy, which is kind of a stoicism book, really.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a book called Tricks of the Mind.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: He's done some really good specials.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_00: So he's a psychological illusionist, and he does a lot of hypnosis and mind reading, and he's very aware of these different um manipulation tactics and stuff, and he does them as part of his shows.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: But he when you watch him, you think, oh my god, imagine if you had those skills in daily life, you know, imagine if you had that ability to just make people go into a trance or um read people's minds, guess what they're gonna do next.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine the power that you would have if you could do that.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I watched a documentary with uh about Darren Brown quite a while ago, and he was like he was like, I would never, ever, I don't even think about this stuff ever when I'm hanging out with my friends, ever.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that is repulsive, that thought.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like the context is that I'm on a stage, I'm doing a show, it's entertainment.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I and I love that, and I think that's kind of the the idea here with the communication tools is like realness, authenticity, genuine connection is always the most important thing, but then we're always gonna be in situations where we feel stuck, right?
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're in some kind of abusive dynamic or we're dealing with someone who doesn't want to play the same game as us and they they they're out for blood, they want to kind of destroy lives or hurt people.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: What do we do?
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we feel anxious and we can't assert ourselves properly, so we use a model to do that.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe we feel like the responses that we've been g giving in social situations, we've tried to do it the authentic way, it's not working, and we're stuck and we're exasperated, and we feel like we don't have any other options.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then mirroring and labeling are there for you to try.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I hope that I hope that's been useful.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about a lot of different ideas, it was kind of somewhat like free flowing, but I've just shared with you some ideas that I uh found personally useful.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, guys, take care.